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heartfully
19 December 2009, 09:06 AM
Namaste,

Please know I do not want to create conflict here. I have had many battles with Islam, but I feel at this point I need to defend my interpretation of Islam. That puts me in a very very difficult place. Lots of Muslims hate me; lots of non-Muslims hate me.

Its a lonely place, but I feel it is what the Divine wants me to be right now.

If the conservatives walked into my house, they would criticize me. I have pictures of Jesus, Mary, Isis, Tara, Qwan Yin and Buddha. Next to my various translations of Quran are the Dhammapada, the Upanishads, books on wicca, books by gay and lesbian Muslims, books about playing guitar and drawing animals. My cd collection includes rock music, hip hop, qawwalis, gospel, opera.

This month I am celebrating Christmas, Yule, Santa Lucia Day. I have runes; I support the way a woman chooses to dress whether its in burka or bikini as long as its her choice. I even curse when I stub my toe. My dawn prayer includes the gayatri prayer and salat.

So why do I still stay connected to Islam? I want to be near to the Beloved more than I want anything else. Islam took away the scary God I saw in the Bible and told me at the beginning of every chapter of Quran that God is Merciful and Compassionate. It taught me to look at the injustices... at the violence, at the oppression, at the misogyny and chauvanism, at my own ego's stubborn ways, at the hungry who have no choice about fasting during ramadan, at the way my father (a Catholic) beat my mother, at how women are objectified, at the way the moon stays in the sky yet a pebble I toss toward the sky comes back to the ground, at the mysteries of the universe, at the fact I will not be here forever and I better get my priorities straight because one day I will be dead and look over my life and how I will feel that I spent more time watching the late night show than helping others.

I read something recently that told me I needed to think hard about the energy I put in the world and the the way faith and doubt effect me (and then the energy around me).

I don't want to sell Islam. I will never ever do that to anyone. But I would like to show people that some Muslims (many Muslims) are kind, gentle, loving, charitable, generous, democrat, peace-loving, tolerant, openminded, accepting, animal lovers, pacifists. All I want is to be accepted for who I am and not blamed for the violence of another Muslim.

I just want to love as much as I can love, to serve the Divine to the best of my ability, to be a bridge and not a wall that separates. If it is ok, can I introduce you to my Islam? Just so you can meet the loving Muslim women and men who are practicing the same Islam I am, the poets, artists, hadith, ayat, friends who want to take Islam to a better place.

I would like to start a thread here, not to sell you on Islam, but to show that there are many, many good Muslims in this world. Will you give them a chance to speak? Not because I'm here to hit you over the head with Islam, but because I mean it when I look to the right and left at the end of salat and wish all creation "I offer you the greetings of peace and the blessings of the Divine upon you".

I will start that thread now. All I ask is you read the thread with an open heart. There was a time when The Jeffersons sit com was a very controversial thing. Why? Because of the color of their skin. Because of the color of their skin, the Jeffersons reminded people that slavery and prejudice needed to end.

I love you all. I really do. Maybe that makes me a crazy freak, but I love you.

Love to you,
Heartfully

atanu
19 December 2009, 10:19 AM
Namaste,
I love you all. I really do. Maybe that makes me a crazy freak, but I love you.

Love to you,
Heartfully

Namaste heartfully

May the almighty Ishwara-Allah-God guide you and may the love spread.

Om

Harjas Kaur
19 December 2009, 11:59 AM
You are taking a personal view of religion and slapping an Islam label on it. There is no fundamentalist Muslim which would give any credibility to your description as being any part of Islam. It is not even Sufism. But you are free to call it whatever you like. Just don't be upset if your unconvincing.

heartfully (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425) writes: #12 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=36708&postcount=12)

I felt so hurt by your words here. I may not be Sunni and I may be a Sufi Muslim, but I find quite a few hadith and ayat that support me. I do not see Quran as a mess, but more like my heart's mirror. Which path will I take? That is the theme of Quran, in my humble opinion. I believe Islam is a religion that teaches me to love God, to aspire to be compassionate and tolerant, to forgive, to be kind and charitable. It tells me to reason things out, to contemplate on the beauty of this universe, to honor God and seek God. I see many hadith that support me in all these things. I never go around and try to force my religion on anyone and I always seek to be a peacemaker. I think things out and reason things out. Islam teaches me how to do all these things. Maybe some Muslims do the things you accuse them of. There are many ways to be Muslim just like there are many ways to be American or a woman or a friend or a Hindu. It feels like nothing I say here to you will be valued though because once you know I am Muslim you feel so much hatred toward me. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4969&page=2You have every right to believe in whatever you want. But you need to go back and read your own comments. You are jumping into topic threads discussing the very real crisis world-wide with MILLIONS of fanatic politically-minded Muslims who are involved in wars in several countries and then tacking your name onto it as if people hated you personally. Then you are blaming all of us for bullying poor Muslims, like "poor you."

It's like begging to be understood while demanding we accept even the radicalism.

I have to tell you, your version of Islam, while it may be true and right for you is delusional according to any context of definition of Islamic religion. Yes, you would not even be considered a "heretic" but a Non-Muslim kaffir. So WHY are you defending the very radicalism setting fire to the world as some extension of yourself?


But I would like to show people that some Muslims (many Muslims) are kind, gentle, loving, charitable, generous, democrat, peace-loving, tolerant, openminded, accepting, animal lovers, pacifists. All I want is to be accepted for who I am and not blamed for the violence of another Muslim.They do not accept you. Why are you defending in their name some pacifistic beliefs of your own? Mohammed and Koran do not teach pacifism. We are using the same world "Islam" but we are not talking about the same things.

You cannot change the face Islam wears when all over the world a radically different version of Islam contradicts yours. It is not we who need to change our definition of Islam. You need to recognize that you cannot force acceptance of radical fundamentalist jihadi Islam from Hindu people. It is not your right to demand that kind of acceptance. If you want to be accepted on a personal level, I would recommend you refrain from comparing the wonderful prophet of God Mohammed the holy enlightened one, praise be upon him with Kali Ma the blood sucking vampire. Maybe your approach to Hindu's could improve. Because that kind of paragraph is inflammatory on it's face and completely inappropriate for posting on a Hindu forum. What kind of acceptance do you want exactly?

Lots of Muslims hate me; lots of non-Muslims hate me. Maybe you are projecting that hatred. No one here knows you. For you to pretend (even to yourself) that you represent Islam as some discriminated faith when militants are currently waging terrorist actions to destabilize India and destroy Hinduism and blaming Hindu's who protest those radical ideologies as being unfair and prejudiced against YOU PERSONALLY is ridiculous.
If the conservatives walked into my house, they would criticize me. I have pictures of Jesus, Mary, Isis, Tara, Qwan Yin and Buddha. Next to my various translations of Quran are the Dhammapada, the Upanishads, books on wicca, books by gay and lesbian Muslims, books about playing guitar and drawing animals. My cd collection includes rock music, hip hop, qawwalis, gospel, opera.No, conservative Muslims would kill you for misrepresenting their faith in such a distorted way according to their official scholarship. On the other hand, I am not saying your way is invalid. I am saying it is not Islamic and Muslim fundamentalists would never consider you a Muslim. I do not see any bad or good in it, it is simply a statement of fact. You are free to disagree.
http://shariaalert.com/resources/hanging.jpg
Bahai's in Iran, also considered Kaffirs and non-Muslims.

It is not the Hindu world persecuting your beliefs. It is the very people whose label you adopt as your own. Reading Sufi saints is wonderful, truth is there. But trying to fit yourself into some discussion about fundamentalist Islam and then reacting as you do when you would yourself be persecuted by fundamentalists makes no sense.

Watch the video below, which represents radical fundamentalist Islamic political movements with cells in multiple countries, and you will understand this is what we are talking about. Ask yourself truthfully if there is anything in this presentation which represents you?

Capitalism, Socialism, Fascism, Neoconservatism, Communism, Nazism, ISLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqQyrZAFl1U

heartfully (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425) writes: #14 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=36712&postcount=14)

Quran tells me to contemplate the stars, the trees, the words of Quran. It forbids me to make any person or group of persons superior to God. Muslim and Islam both mean to be surrendered to God. I am learning from Islam that I must always check in with God before I check in with a person.

I think some Muslims are forgetting how God instructs Muslims to think and reason and contemplate. There are many Muslims who don't want to have to study Quran; they just want someone else to give them the answer so they don't have to find it out for themselves. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4969&page=2You study Koran? Yet you do not cite one single sura which refutes or contradicts the large body of evidence compiled on the previous thread? Yet you are writing that those other Muslims don't study Koran.

Quran states a person's religion is chosen by God so how can you be criticized for practicing the religion God chose for you? Also Quran states that all the prophets are equal, none are above the other. What is the sura, verse and page? Do you have an English language version link? Or is it just something you believe off the top of your head?

You do not represent ISLAM. And Islam doesn't represent you. Your "deen" does not conform to any sect of Islam. So why is this drama taking place on this forum?

It is like taking name of Hitler and writing praise be upon him, and trying to convince all of us into understanding YOU better by accepting this wonderful new definition of new and improved Hitler.

heartfully (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425) writes: #39 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=36754&postcount=39)

Why should a Sufi be silenced for what a wahabi does? Shouldn't that make the Sufi speak out against the true enemy? Is Islam the enemy or is the violence of wahabis?

Isn't it the same as racial profiling to make me guilty for the crimes of another?
Some Muslims are using violence in the name of Islam. Many aren't. It is not fair to say I should stop practicing my faithbecause wahabis are wounding so violently. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4969&page=4If you want to have a religion where Mohammed is your prophet and messenger, no one here was ever stopping you. Everyone told you to stay in your own religion and believe what you believe. So don't write that we are telling you not to practice Islam. Those kind of statements are unsupportable.

The problem began under the topic "Was Mohammed Enlightened?" Other people have the right to believe he was NOT for very clear and obvious reasons. You are free to believe differently without making attacks comparing Kali Ma to a blood sucking vampire if we do not agree Mohammed was enlightened.

heartfully (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425) writes: #7 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=36703&postcount=7)

Saying Muhammad wasn't enlightened is like saying Ganesha really has an elephant's head or Kali is no different than a blood thirsty vampire. It is also judging someone by your own interpretation of enlightenment. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4969In all these Islamic Republics which practice Sharia, there is NO evidence of Mohammed's enlightenment. If you want to pretend that 90% of the Muslim world is wrong and misrepresented, but your personal version of Islam is the true one, great! But don't force this hogwash down our throats.

If you want to debate Islam, then cite suras, not your own opinions. Don't attack our faith when you can't even validate your own version of Islam as having any legitimacy within any Islamic context.

Situation of the Baha'is in Iran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE1WW2PX164

heartfully
19 December 2009, 05:00 PM
These links are to other Muslims who share the same beliefs I do.

Muslims Against Sharia: http://www.reformislam.org/
Pir Zia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia_Inayat_Khan
Lllewellyn Vaughan on the Feminine Divine: http://www.whenthesoulawakens.org/index.php?page_id=275
Bab Aziz: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0395461/
Rumi: http://www.khamush.com/love_poems.html
Golden Sufi Center: http://www.goldensufi.org/about.html
Bawa Muhaiyaddeen: http://www.bmf.org
Nur Ashki Jerrahi: http://www.nurashkijerrahi.org
Nimatullahi: http://www.nimatullahi.org
Darvish: http://darvish.wordpress.org
Queen Rania: http://www.queenrania.jo/
Irshad Manji: http://www.irshadmanji.com
Junoon: http://www.junoon.com
Laleh Bhaktiar: http://www.sublimequran.com[/URL]




You have every right to believe in whatever you want. But you need to go back and read your own comments. You are jumping into topic threads discussing the very real crisis world-wide with MILLIONS of fanatic politically-minded Muslims who are involved in wars in several countries and then tacking your name onto it as if people hated you personally. Then you are blaming all of us for bullying poor Muslims, like "poor you."

It's like begging to be understood while demanding we accept even the radicalism.


You see it this way because you believe there can only be one interpretation of Islam and you believe that is the radicals' version.




I have to tell you, your version of Islam, while it may be true and right for you is delusional according to any context of definition of Islamic religion. Yes, you would not even be considered a "heretic" but a Non-Muslim kaffir. So WHY are you defending the very radicalism setting fire to the world as some extension of yourself?

They do not accept you. Why are you defending in their name some pacifistic beliefs of your own? Mohammed and Koran do not teach pacifism. We are using the same world "Islam" but we are not talking about the same things.



I never defended radicalism. As Queen Rania when Oprah Winfrey asked her if she was a Muslim, ""Yes, very much so. Muslims are required to pray five times a day. We fast the holy month of Ramadan, which is, I guess, equivalent to Lent in Christianity. We are meant to give to charity. Once in our lifetime, we have to make a pilgrimage to the holy site of Mecca. These are the basic principles and practices of Islam. But more importantly, Islam is about spiritual fulfillment, about morals, about trying to purify your soul. That is something that has to be very much emphasized."

Quran on peace:
AND DO NOT allow your oaths in the name of God to become an obstacle to virtue and God-consciousness and the promotion of peace between men: Asad(2,212) for God is all-hearing, all-knowing. {2:224]

...AND DO NOT allow your oaths in the name of God to become an obstacle to virtue and God-consciousness and the promotion of peace between men: Asad(2,212 for God is all-hearing, all-knowing. {4:90}

AND DO NOT allow your oaths in the name of God to become an obstacle to virtue and God-consciousness and the promotion of peace between men: Asad(2,212 for God is all-hearing, all-knowing. {8:61}

Respond with that which is better, so that he, between whom and you there was animosity, shall be like an intimate friend. And none shall be accorded this rank except those who have stood fast, and none shall be accorded it except one blessed with great good fortune. {41:34}

But [remember that an attempt at] requiting evil may, too, become an evil: Asad(42,40) hence, whoever par­dons [his foe] and makes peace, his reward rests with God - for, verily, He does not love evildoers. Asad(42,41) {42:40}






You cannot change the face Islam wears when all over the world a radically different version of Islam contradicts yours. It is not we who need to change our definition of Islam. You need to recognize that you cannot force acceptance of radical fundamentalist jihadi Islam from Hindu people. It is not your right to demand that kind of acceptance.


I deplore violence in the name of Islam and there are many many Muslims who also hate violence done in the name of Islam. Once again, if you insist there is only one Islam, then that is how it will be for you. Your criticism and rage cause you to view me as someone I'm not. I can't change that. Your anger toward radicals is justified, but I'm not sure why I am now the target of your rage because I am angry at the radicals (but I will not let them define Islam).



If you want to be accepted on a personal level, I would recommend you refrain from comparing the wonderful prophet of God Mohammed the holy enlightened one, praise be upon him with Kali Ma the blood sucking vampire.


I wrote that many non-Hindus would (ignorantly) view Kali as they would a blood thirsty vampire. To the non-Hindu who is not familiar with Hinduism, Kali might look more like the devil/vampire/etc than a goddess. And to those who only know about radical interpretations of Islam, Muhammad might look like something he is not.

Your accusation shows you may have missed what my point was, but I'm not sure. You seem to have come to your own conclusions.



Maybe your approach to Hindu's could improve. Because that kind of paragraph is inflammatory on it's face and completely inappropriate for posting on a Hindu forum. What kind of acceptance do you want exactly?


It would have been very inappropriate if I said Kali is like a blood-sucking vampire. I didn't say that. I said people who know nothing about Hinduism might view her as a blood-sucking vampire. From PMs we've exchanged, you are very aware of how much I want to learn about and understand Kali. Ego/nafs are probably why I feel drawn to her now.



Maybe you are projecting that hatred. No one here knows you. For you to pretend (even to yourself) that you represent Islam as some discriminated faith when militants are currently waging terrorist actions to destabilize India and destroy Hinduism and blaming Hindu's who protest those radical ideologies as being unfair and prejudiced against YOU PERSONALLY is ridiculous. No, conservative Muslims would kill you for misrepresenting their faith in such a distorted way according to their official scholarship.


Stop accusing me of supporting radical interpretations of Islam. Stop accusing me of being ignorant about what the radicals are doing. I also put myself in danger by insisting the radical violence is an errant form of Islam. I am sickened by them. Stop accusing me of defending them. That is why I keep responding to you, not to fight you, but because you are accusing me of supporting radicals and that is extremely offensive to do when I state clearly I practice non-violence.
I am haunted by what these tyrannical rulers are doing. That is why I refuse to let them have Islam. The radicals want me to be scared off. Well, it ain't gonna happen. The human rights violations are horrendous. To watch someone shout, "Allahu Akbar" as he murders, maims, destroys...do you think I'm not haunted by that? I am watching radicals take advantage of the position of some countries, populating in those countries, turning them extremist. Please do not ever accuse me of supporting radicals again!



On the other hand, I am not saying your way is invalid. I am saying it is not Islamic and Muslim fundamentalists would never consider you a Muslim. I do not see any bad or good in it, it is simply a statement of fact. You are free to disagree.

Bahai's in Iran, also considered Kaffirs and non-Muslims.


This has also happened when Christians went after witches, when gays get beat up by homophobes, when African Americans are lynched, when children are abused by priests, when people make a game of dog fighting, when mentally ill are tortured with lobotomies, when seals are clubbed to death every year, when factory farming allows horrific things to happen to animals who give us their life for food on the table.

I could post pictures of all these to make my point clearer, but I am more sensitive to the feelings of others.



It is not the Hindu world persecuting your beliefs. It is the very people whose label you adopt as your own. Reading Sufi saints is wonderful, truth is there. But trying to fit yourself into some discussion about fundamentalist Islam and then reacting as you do when you would yourself be persecuted by fundamentalists makes no sense.


I don't feel the Hindu world is persecuting my beliefs. I don't generalize. It may not ever make sense to you because you are unwilling to see gray areas.


(http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425)
You study Koran? Yet you do not cite one single sura which refutes or contradicts the large body of evidence compiled on the previous thread? Yet you are writing that those other Muslims don't study Koran.
What is the sura, verse and page? Do you have an English language version link? Or is it just something you believe off the top of your head?

You do not represent ISLAM. And Islam doesn't represent you. Your "deen" does not conform to any sect of Islam.


See the ayat I have included below.




So why is this drama taking place on this forum?

It is like taking name of Hitler and writing praise be upon him, and trying to convince all of us into understanding YOU better by accepting this wonderful new definition of new and improved Hitler.


My "drama" is a reaction to that ugliness you are connecting to me.


heartfully (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425) writes: #39 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=36754&postcount=39)
If you want to have a religion where Mohammed is your prophet and messenger, no one here was ever stopping you. Everyone told you to stay in your own religion and believe what you believe. So don't write that we are telling you not to practice Islam. Those kind of statements are unsupportable.

The problem began under the topic "Was Mohammed Enlightened?" Other people have the right to believe he was NOT for very clear and obvious reasons. You are free to believe differently without making attacks comparing Kali Ma to a blood sucking vampire if we do not agree Mohammed was enlightened.
[/quote]

Lord, help me. I said people who do not know anything about Hinduism might see her as a blood-sucking vampire. I am not saying she is that; I'm saying people have to know a religion to understand it correctly. Just as you were teaching me about Kali in your pms.




If you want to debate Islam, then cite suras, not your own opinions. Don't attack our faith when you can't even validate your own version of Islam as having any legitimacy within any Islamic context.

Situation of the Baha'is in Iran
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE1WW2PX164 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1425)


Assalam Alaykum playlist
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=53CFE2612394DA6E

Some ayat that support my interpretation of Islam:

As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: Asad(60,9) for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. [60:8]

And if thou [must] turn aside from those [that are in want, because thou thyself art] seeking to obtain thy Sustainer's grace and hoping for it, d(17,34) at least speak unto them with gentle speech. [17:28]

But there is [also] a kind of man who would willingly sell his own self in order to please God: Asad(2,190) and God is most compassionate towards His servants. [2:207]

On the Day when every human being will find himself faced with all the good that he has done, and with all the evil that he has done, [many a one] will wish that there were a long span of time between himself and that [Day]. Hence, God warns you to beware of Him; but God is most compassionate towards His creatures.[3:30]

And thereupon We caused [other of] Our apostles to follow in their footsteps; and [in the course of time] We caused them to be followed by Jesus, the son of Mary, upon whom We bestowed the Gospel; Asad(57,46) and in the hearts of those who [truly] followed him We engendered compassion and mercy. But as for monastic asceticism - We did not enjoin it upon them: they invented it themselves out of a desire for God’s goodly acceptance. Asad(57,48) But then, they did not [always] observe it as it ought to have been observed: and so We granted their recompense unto such of them as had [truly] attained to faith, whereas many of them became iniquitous. [57:27]

(It is) to free a slave, (13) And to feed in the day of hunger. (14) An orphan near of kin, (15) Or some poor wretch in misery, (16) And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. (17) Their place will be on the right hand. (18) But those who disbelieve Our revelations, their place will be on the left hand. (19) Fire will be an awning over them. (20) [90:11-20]

AND LO! We accepted this solemn pledge from [you,] ' the children of Israel: Asad(2,66) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=orphans&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) "You shall worship none but God; and you shall do good unto your parents and kinsfolk, and the orphans, and the poor; and you shall speak unto all people in a kindly way; and you shall be constant in prayer; and you shall spend in charity. Asad(2,67) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=orphans&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) ”And yet, save for a few of you, you turned away: for you are obstinate folk! [2:83]

True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west Asad(2,143) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=orphans&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#)- but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation, and the prophets; and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God. [2:177]

AND WORSHIP God [alone], and do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him. And do good unto your parents, and near of kin, and unto orphans, and the needy, and the neighbour from among your own people, and the neighbour who is a stranger, Asad(4,47) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=orphans&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) and the friend by your side, and the wayfarer, and those whom you rightfully possess. Asad(4,48) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=orphans&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) Verily, God does not love any of those who, full of self-conceit, act in a boastful manner; [4:36]

And seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: and this, indeed, is a hard thing for all but the humble in spirit, [2:45]

O YOU who have attained to faith! Seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: for, behold, God is with those who are patient in adversity. [2:153]

O you who have attained to faith! Be patient in adversity, and vie in patience with one another, and be ever ready [to do what is right], and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state! [3:200]

And yet they say, “Why have no miraculous signs ever been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer?” Say: "miracles are in the power of God alone; Asad(29,49) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=miracles&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) and as for me - I am but a plain warner.” [29:50]

“And [God says:] ‘We have enjoined upon man goodness towards his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his utter dependence on her lasted two years: Asad(31,14) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=goodness&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) [hence, O man,] be grateful towards Me and towards thy parents, [and remember that] with Me is all journeys’ end.[31:14]

And so, We have bestowed this divine writ as a heritage unto such of Our servants as We chose: and among them are some who sin against themselves; and some who keep half-way [between right and wrong]; and some who, by God’s leave, are fore­most in deeds of goodness: [and] this, indeed, is a merit most high! [35:32]

THE APOSTLE, and the believers with him, believe in what has been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer: they all believe in God, and His angels, and His revelations, and His apostles, making no distinction between any of His apostles; and they say: We have heard, and we pay heed. Grant us Thy forgiveness, O our Sustainer, for with Thee is all journeys' end! [2:285]

Said [Moses]: "O my Sustainer! Grant Thou forgiveness unto me and my brother, and admit us unto Thy grace: for Thou art the most merciful of the merciful!" [7:151]

[He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses: Asad(6,81) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=moon&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. [6:96]

He it is who has made the sun a [source of] radiant light and the moon a light [reflected], Asad(10,10) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=moon&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#)and has determined for it phases so that you might know how to compute the years and to measure [time]. None of this has God created without [an inner] truth. Clearly does He spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge: [10:5]

The pilgrimage shall take place in the months appointed for it. And whoever undertakes the pilgrimage in those [months] shall, while on pilgrimage, abstain from lewd speech, from all wicked conduct, and from quarrelling; and whatever good you may do, God is aware of it. And make provision for yourselves - but, verily, the best of all provisions is God-consciousness: remain, then, conscious of Me, O you who are endowed with insight! [2:197]

granting wisdom unto whom He wills: and whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted wealth abundant. But none bears this in mind save those who are endowed with insight. [2:269]

Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the succession of night and day, there are indeed messages for all who are endowed with insight,[3:190]

Means of insight have now come unto you from your Sustainer [through this divine writ]. Whoever, therefore, chooses to see, does so for his own good; and whoever chooses to remain blind, does so to his own hurt. And [say unto the blind of heart]: "I am not your keeper." [6:104]

And yet, when thou [O Prophet] dost not produce any miracle for them, some [people] say, "Why dost thou not seek to obtain it [from God]? Asad(7,167) Say: "I only follow whatever is being revealed to me by my Sustainer: this [revelation] is a means of insight from your Sustainer, and a guidance and grace unto people who will believe. [12:108]

and be constant in prayer, and spend in charity and bow down in prayer with all who thus bow down. [2:43]

If you do deeds of charity openly, it is well; but if you bestow it upon the needy in secret, it will be even better for you, and it will atone for some of your bad deeds. And God is aware of all that you do. [2:271]

Verily, those who have attained to faith and do good works, and are constant in prayer, and dispense charity - they shall have their reward with their Sustainer, and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. [2:277]

AND FIGHT in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.[2:190]

And spend [freely] in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction; and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good. [2:195]

For it is He who has brought into being gardens-[both] the cultivated ones and those growing wild -and the date-palm, and fields bearing multiform produce, and the olive tree, and the pomegranate: [all] resembling one another and yet so different! Asad(6,128) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?PageCurrent=2&-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=love&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) Eat of their fruit when it comes to fruition, and give [unto the poor] their due on harvest day. And do not waste [God's bounties]: verily, He does not love the wasteful! [7:31]

Call unto your Sustainer humbly, and in the secrecy of your hearts. Verily, He loves not those who transgress the bounds of what is right: [7:55]

Hence, ask your Sustainer to forgive you your sins, and then turn towards Him in repentance - for, verily, my Sustainer is a dispenser of grace, a fount of love." [11:90]

VERILY, those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds will the Most Gracious endow with love:[19:96]

Seek instead, by means of what God has granted thee, [the good of] the life to come, without forget­ting, withal, thine own [rightful] share in this world; Asad(28,87) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?PageCurrent=3&-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=love&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#)and do good [unto others] as God has done good unto thee; and seek not to spread corruption on earth: for, verily, God does not love the spreaders of corruption!” [28:77]

And among His wonders is this: He creates for you mates out of your own kind. so that you might incline towards them, and He engenders and tenderness between you: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think! [30:21]

that [bounty] whereof God gives the glad tiding to such of His servants as attain to faith and do righteous deeds. Say [O Prophet]: “No reward do I ask of you for this [message] other than [that you should] love your fellow-men.” Asad(42,29) For, if anyone gains [the merit of] a good deed, We shall grant him through it an increase of good: and, verily, God is much-forgiving, ever responsive to gratitude. [42:23]

THEY WILL ASK thee about the new moons. Say: "They indicate the periods for [various doings of] mankind, including the pilgrimage." However, piety does not consist in your entering houses from the rear, [as it were,] but truly pious is he who is conscious of God. Hence, enter houses through their doors, and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state. [2:189]

[But as for you, O believers,] never shall you attain to true piety unless you spend on others out of what you cherish yourselves; and whatever you spend - verily, God has full knowledge thereof.[3:92]

Have, then, they [who deny the truth] never considered the birds, enabled [by God] to fly in mid-air, with none but God holding them aloft? In this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who will believe! [16:79]

ART THOU NOT aware that it is God whose limit­less glory all [creatures] that are in the heavens and on earth extol, even the birds as they spread out their wings? Asad(24,62) (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=birds&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search#) Each [of them] knows indeed how to pray unto Him and to glorify Him; and God has full knowledge of all that they do: [24:41]

[But bear in mind:] never does their flesh reach God, and neither their blood: it is only your God-consciousness that reaches Him. It is to this end that We have made them subservient to your needs, so that you might glorify God for all the guidance with which He has graced you. And give thou this glad tiding unto the doers of good: [22:37]

devotee
20 December 2009, 04:08 AM
Namaste HF,

Please see these verses too. I have quoted all related verses here so that it should not be construed that I am quoting out of context :

Quran : Chapter -2

[2.15] Allah will mock at them (the unbelievers) and prolong them in sin, blundering blindly.
[2.16] Such are those who barter away guidance for error, their trade did
not profit (them), nor are they guided.
[2.17] Their example is like one who kindled a fire, and when it lit all
around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. They
could not see.
[2.18] Deaf, dumb, and blind, they shall never return.
[2.19] Or, like (those who, under) a cloudburst from the sky with darkness,
thunder and lightning, they thrust their fingers in their ears at the sound
of every thunderclap for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the
unbelievers.
[2.20] The lightning almost snatches away their sight, whenever it flashes
upon them they walk on, but as soon as it darkens they stand still. Indeed,
if Allah willed, He could take away their sight and hearing. Allah has
power over all things.
[2.21] O people, worship your Lord who has created you and those who have
gone before you, so that you will be cautious.
[2.22] Who has made the earth a bed for you and the sky a dome, and has
sent down water from the sky to bring forth fruits for your provision. Do
not knowingly set up rivals to Allah.
[2.23] If you are in doubt of what We have sent down to Our worshiper
(Prophet Muhammad), produce a chapter comparable to it. Call upon your
helpers, other than Allah, to assist you, if you are true.
[2.24] But if you fail, as you are sure to fail, then guard yourselves
against the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, prepared for the
unbelievers
[2. 39] But those who disbelieve and belie Our verses shall be the
companions of the Fire, and there they shall live for ever. '


See, in above verses, Allah discriminates against a person only because he is an unbeliever ... there is no other fault. And for being termed a believer, you must believe in whatever is written in Quran & the messenger. You have no option to raise a voice of dissent. If you doubt then the fire of hell is waiting for you for burning you for ever.

Do you think it gives a picture of merciful & benevolent God ... as He keeps claiming every now & then in Quran ? Why did God give us brain to think & see the things in a logically manner if he wanted us to believe every word of Quran & the prophet Muhammad without questioning ? I am a peace loving person & believer in justice, I believe in helping others even at the cost of my interests .... but I do have doubts of authenticity of Quran & Muhammad being a prophet ? Is it a sin to doubt ? What if Muhammad was an imposter ? What if just misguided people for his own vested interests ? There are many revelations in different religions which don't make it mandatory for believing in Quran or the prophet Muhammad. And that leaves a big scope for me to doubt both Muhammad & his book. If you are put in Allah's place & asked to decide the fate of a person like me ... will you send me to burning hell for eternity ? Is it justice ?

You claimed that it is you who need to believe in Allah & not otherwise. But please read the above verses & decide ... why Allah is so desperate that people must believe even if there are good reasons to doubt & disbelieve ? It is not your need ... it is only unreasonable monstrous fear of Allah's peculiar justice system ! Who wants to burn in hell & that too for eternity ? Why not believe Him & get the bounty he is offering ? That is too tempting at least for men ! I don't know what is there for the women ?

OM

devotee
20 December 2009, 04:24 AM
Namaste HF,

If you have read what justice system Allah has for the so called, "Unbelievers", please read the following to have an idea of what he thinks of Idol-worshippers (i.e. the Pagans / Hindus & many other tribes who do so). They are to be mercilessly killed & tormented in hell Only because they are idol-worshipper !

[9.1] An acquittal from Allah and His Messenger to the idolaters with whom you have made agreements;
[9.2] 'For four months you shall journey freely in the land. But know that you shall not render Allah incapable, and that Allah will humiliate the
unbelievers. '
[9.3] A proclamation from Allah and His Messenger, to the people on the day of the Grand Pilgrimage; 'Allah rejects, and His Messenger (rejects) the
idolaters. So if you repent, that will be better for you; but if you turn your backs, know that you cannot frustrate Allah. And give glad tidings to
the unbelievers of a painful punishment,
[9.4] except those idolaters who have fully honored their treaties with you and aided none against you. With these fulfill your covenant till their
term. Surely, Allah loves the righteous.
[9.5] When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them.
If they repent and establish the prayer and pay the obligatory charity, let them go their way. Allah is Forgiving and the Most Merciful.
[9.6] If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection in order that he hears the Word of Allah, and then convey him to his place of
safety, because they are a nation who do not know.
[9.7] How can the idolaters have any treaty with Allah and His Messenger, except those with whom you have made treaties by the Sacred Mosque? So long as they are straight with you, so be straight with them. Allah loves the righteous.
[9.8] How? If they prevail against you they will respect neither agreements nor ties of kindred. They satisfy you with their tongues, but their hearts
are averse; and most of them are wicked.
[9.9] They sell the verses of Allah for a small price and bar others from His Path. Evil is what they have been doing.
[9.10] They honor with the believers neither bonds nor treaties. Such are the transgressors.
[9.11] If they repent and establish the prayer and pay the obligatory charity, they shall become your brothers in the religion. So We make plain
Our verses for a nation that knows.
[9.12] But if, after coming to terms with you, they break their oaths and revile your belief, fight the leaders of the disbelief for they have no
oaths in order that they will desist.
[9.13] Will you not fight against those who have broken their oaths and conspired to expel the Messenger? They were the first to attack you. Do you
fear them? Surely, Allah has better rights that you fear Him, if you are believers.
[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing
nation.
[9.15] He will take away all anger from their hearts: Allah turns to whomsoever He will. Allah is Knowing, Wise.
[9.16] Did you suppose that you would be left before Allah has known those of you who fought and did not take a confidant other than Allah, His
Messenger, and the believers? Allah is Aware of what you do.
[9.17] Idolaters should not inhabit the mosques of Allah bearing witness against themselves with disbelief. Those, their deeds have been annulled,
and in the Fire they shall live for ever.
[9.28] Believers, the idolaters are unclean. Do not let them approach the Sacred Mosque after this year. If you fear poverty, Allah, if He wills,
will enrich you through His bounty. He is Knowing, Wise.
[9.29] Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace
the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been
humiliated.
[9.30] The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah, while the Christians (who follow Paul) say the Messiah is the son of Allah. Such are their
assertions, by which they imitate those who disbelieved before. Allah fights them! How perverted are they!
'


You see the language used by so called Allah for the idol-worshippers ! They are not trustworthy, they are unclean & they will be tormented in hell ... just because they are idol-worshippers ! " Even the protection should be given to them to convert them to Islam as they are from ignorant nation !

"[9.11] If they repent and establish the prayer and pay the obligatory charity, they shall become your brothers in the religion. So We make plain
Our verses for a nation that knows.
[9.12] But if, after coming to terms with you, they break their oaths and revile your belief, fight the leaders of the disbelief for they have no
oaths in order that they will desist."


That is ... if the poor fellow agrees to convert then it is OK, else kill them in ambush ... it is a decree from Allah ... the most merciful !

And Allah doesn't leave the Jews or Christians too because they say that Ezra / Christ was son of God ! ??? It is such a blatant attack on the faiths of Jews & the Christians & the book says that Don't doubt or else .... !!!

I don't see the merciful face of Allah in those verses ... can anyone see ?

OM

saidevo
20 December 2009, 06:17 AM
namaste HF.



Saying Muhammad wasn't enlightened is like saying Ganesha really has an elephant's head or Kali is no different than a blood thirsty vampire. It is also judging someone by your own interpretation of enlightenment.




I wrote that many non-Hindus would (ignorantly) view Kali as they would a blood thirsty vampire. To the non-Hindu who is not familiar with Hinduism, Kali might look more like the devil/vampire/etc than a goddess. And to those who only know about radical interpretations of Islam, Muhammad might look like something he is not.

Your accusation shows you may have missed what my point was, but I'm not sure. You seem to have come to your own conclusions.


The first is an actual quote of yours from the thread 'Was Muhammad Enlightened?'; only the second you have given here now, is the explanation of it. Please note that you did not include the words 'Hindus' or 'non-Hindus' as viewing kALI mA in your original quote that was not specifically addressed to SS, although it countered his arguments. As such, HK's reaction was only to the original quote and not her 'own conclusions'.

Please note that Hindus are NOT AT ALL bothered about Mohammad or Quran or Islam SO LONG AS that faith does not seek to infringe on Hindu religious life, culture and nation. But since the very existence of these ways of their life is threatened by Islam--you might perhaps say terrorism that goes in the name of Islam--, Hindus have to take a stand and defend their position.

In such a situation, a Hindu like me (and there are many more such), who seeks peaceful co-existence with every other religion and every sect of my own religion, does need to question the enlightenment of Prophet Mohammad, who gave a religion that needs to be propagated not by the virtue of its inherent tools of sAdhana--spiritual practice, but by violence.

If you seek to present a contrary view of Islam with reasonable, rational explanations, you are welcome, but then please understand that such a view must also come from and be accepted by the majority of your own Muslim brethren, who are either mostly silent or passive witnesses to Islamic terrorism.

It is Juan (Spiritualseeker)--an erstwhile Muslim, who started the thread questioning the enlightenment of Mohammad with solid examples and quotes from authoratative sources of Islam; many Hindus--I among them--are inclined to agree with him, even at the cost of confronting the views of some of our more-enlightened members who readily seek to chide us!

In the circumstances, you need to take into account the authentic quotes and explanations of Juan as well as those given by Devotee or might be given by others, when you seek to extrapolate your religion and try to show that it has a peaceful face too.

heartfully
20 December 2009, 07:50 AM
Namaste Devotee,


Namaste HF,
Please see these verses too. I have quoted all related verses here so that it should not be construed that I am quoting out of context :


I know the Quran very well. It challenges us like free will challenges us. Quran, for mystics, has layers of meaning. Sufis say each word in Quran has 7 meanings. Perhaps partly because Arabic/Hebrew/Aramaic are like that. Sufis also say Quran is like a mirror of the heart. We choose to relate to the parts our hearts align with.

We could debate forever like this and I suspect we will get nowhere.

Let me just comment though.

Back up to 2:8-14:

(8) And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
(9) They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
(10) There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
(11) And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
(12) Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.
(13) And when it is said to them: Believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
(14) And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.

The above verses describe who 2:15-24 (and we'll get to 2:39 after that) is about. Remembering the Quran is a mirror of the heart, let's look at what 2:8-14 are talking about and then contemplate the challenging 2:15-24

2:8-14 tell us that 2:15-24 are about people who were deceiving others, pretending to be Muslim. No sacred text can be read without taking relevant historical information into account. During the time of the prophet, peace be upon him, there were non-Muslims spying on the community then going back to their own tribes with the information they found while doing that. That information would then be used to harm the prophet's followers.

Many sacred texts require history to be taken into account. The Bible is very difficult for many people to understand because of it. Common sense tells us that things like slavery, fathers giving away daughters, etc., have new messages in this day and age. This is what the Muslim community is learning now (better late than never).

When you really look at 2:8-14, you can also view it and see there is a relevant message here that says radicals are now claiming to be Muslim, but they are only deceiving others.

The point that the Divine is making here: "You might think you can deceive other people, but you are not deceiving Me."



Quran : Chapter -2

[2.15] Allah will mock at them (the unbelievers) and prolong them in sin, blundering blindly.
[2.16] Such are those who barter away guidance for error, their trade did
not profit (them), nor are they guided.
[2.17] Their example is like one who kindled a fire, and when it lit all
around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. They
could not see.
[2.18] Deaf, dumb, and blind, they shall never return.
[2.19] Or, like (those who, under) a cloudburst from the sky with darkness,
thunder and lightning, they thrust their fingers in their ears at the sound
of every thunderclap for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the
unbelievers.
[2.20] The lightning almost snatches away their sight, whenever it flashes
upon them they walk on, but as soon as it darkens they stand still. Indeed,
if Allah willed, He could take away their sight and hearing. Allah has
power over all things.
[2.21] O people, worship your Lord who has created you and those who have
gone before you, so that you will be cautious.
[2.22] Who has made the earth a bed for you and the sky a dome, and has
sent down water from the sky to bring forth fruits for your provision. Do
not knowingly set up rivals to Allah.
[2.23] If you are in doubt of what We have sent down to Our worshiper
(Prophet Muhammad), produce a chapter comparable to it. Call upon your
helpers, other than Allah, to assist you, if you are true.
[2.24] But if you fail, as you are sure to fail, then guard yourselves
against the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, prepared for the
unbelievers
[2. 39] But those who disbelieve and belie Our verses shall be the
companions of the Fire, and there they shall live for ever. '


Now putting it all together we see that all the ayat you used above actually means there are people who will pretend to be Muslim who could care less about compassion and mercy (the Divine tells us at the beginning of every surah that the Divine is the Compassionate and Merciful; this is not just the Divine randomly throwing words into Quran). Which Muslims have betrayed the Divine by the deplorable acts they insist are in the name of Islam? Perhaps the deeper meaning here (many, if not most sacred texts, have layers of meaning) is, in this day and age, directed at Muslims who it is impossible for the Divine to be compassionate and merciful towards. I would certainly hope that the Hitlers, Timothy McVeighs, Charles Mansons and Islamic terrorists of the world will receive a severe punishment from the Divine.



, in above verses, Allah discriminates against a person only because he is an unbeliever ... there is no other fault. And for being termed a believer, you must believe in whatever is written in Quran & the messenger. You have no option to raise a voice of dissent. If you doubt then the fire of hell is waiting for you for burning you for ever.


In my opinion, concepts/terms like fire and hell have many layers of meaning. I would certainly hope all the terrorists of the world who claim "Islam made us do it" will be punished. To me, hell and paradise are another version of the cost of certain actions on karma and future life.



Do you think it gives a picture of merciful & benevolent God ... as He keeps claiming every now & then in Quran ? Why did God give us brain to think & see the things in a logically manner if he wanted us to believe every word of Quran & the prophet Muhammad without questioning ?


In reality, the Divine often tells us to contemplate and look for insight.

granting wisdom unto whom He wills: and whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted wealth abundant. But none bears this in mind save those who are endowed with insight.(2:269)

Means of insight have now come unto you from your Sustainer [through this divine writ]. Whoever, therefore, chooses to see, does so for his own good; and whoever chooses to remain blind, does so to his own hurt. And [say unto the blind of heart]: "I am not your keeper." (6:104)

Indeed, in the stories of these men there is a lesson for those who are endowed with insight. [As for this revelation, ] it could not possibly be a discourse invented [by man]: nay indeed, it is [a divine writ] confirming the truth of whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations], clearly spelling out everything, Asad(12,111)and [offering] guidance and grace unto people who will believe. (12:111)



I am a peace loving person & believer in justice, I believe in helping others even at the cost of my interests ....

Yay! :) Here is our common ground and I hope to have conversations about peace and justice with you.



but I do have doubts of authenticity of Quran & Muhammad being a prophet ? Is it a sin to doubt ?


Your free to believe whatever you want to be. Its between you and the Divine.

Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him. (3:67)

Your interpretation of Quran and your understanding of Muhammad cause you upset. Sufism and gentle sheikhs and sheikhas showed me the parts of Islam that are full of teachings about love, beauty and kindness. It also teaches me that I am free to find the beauty in all religions and that is the only reason I ever came to this board. Somehow it turned into a big argument over Islam.




What if Muhammad was an imposter ? What if just misguided people for his own vested interests ? There are many revelations in different religions which don't make it mandatory for believing in Quran or the prophet Muhammad. And that leaves a big scope for me to doubt both Muhammad & his book. If you are put in Allah's place & asked to decide the fate of a person like me ... will you send me to burning hell for eternity ? Is it justice ?


We agree to disagree on Muhammad and we agree to disagree about how we interpret various passages as literal or metaphorical. Quran makes clear that there is no compulsion in religion. (I'm sure you've heard the verse many times and I know from experience you will say it isn't true).

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (2:256)

One point I want to make though... you reject the verses in Quran that support what you value (peace, just, freedom of choice), but you accept only the parts of Quran that support the things you are against (oppression, fear, coercion). I do it the other way around.

Not that I haven't struggled with Quran, but the more I contemplate the more I learn about who I want to be and the closer I feel to God. Isn't religion only there to give us a way to be a better person and to feel closer to God. If I find that in Sufism, that's cool with me. As a Sufi I have reached that place where all religions make sense to me. Does that mean I accept every word as what I consider the truth? No, but it means I have a lot of common ground with all kinds of people.

I am not getting the opportunity to learn about Hinduism here and I'm done trying to show the Islam that reveres most compassion, love, kindness, tolerance and forgiveness.

Don't be so quick to assume "disbeliever" means anyone who is not Muslim. Don't be so quick to assume Quran says Muslims are perfect or Muhammad was chosen because he was perfect. In the Abrahamic tradition, the Divine often chooses the "true human being".

When people called Islam "Mohamadism" or whatever it was, Muslims fought long and hard to put an end to that. Our religion has no God for a prophet. It is a human story.

You can have your opinions; I can have mine.

Surah 109

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.





You claimed that it is you who need to believe in Allah & not otherwise. But please read the above verses & decide ... why Allah is so desperate that people must believe even if there are good reasons to doubt & disbelieve ? It is not your need ... it is only unreasonable monstrous fear of Allah's peculiar justice system ! Who wants to burn in hell & that too for eternity ? Why not believe Him & get the bounty he is offering ? That is too tempting at least for men ! I don't know what is there for the women ?

OM

Let's just agree to disagree. I am here to learn about Hinduism. Debating has only led us to debate some more. You are entitled to your opinions just as I am entitled to mine. I can see this is not the place I am free to discuss my Sufi beliefs. That's not what the forum is here for anyway. So...on to Hinduism.

Love to you,
Heartfully

Harjas Kaur
20 December 2009, 07:51 AM
These links are to other Muslims who share the same beliefs I do.Read what I wrote:

"There isno fundamentalist Muslim which would give any credibility to your description as being any part of Islam. It is not even Sufism. But you are free to call it whatever you like. Just don't be upset if your unconvincing."

So a list of liberal Muslims doesn't prove anything. The ISLAMIC philosophy which is frequently discussed and disputed on Hindu forums concerns our very real contact with the FUNDAMENTALIST VARIETY. And hence that factor alone is my proof to you, that YOU were not being discussed in that debate as you seemed to think. HOWEVER, since you read the term ISLAM in the debate, and identify with it, you were taking our RESISTANCE AGAINST RADICAL ISLAM as being a hatred of YOU.

Do you understand the difference? Nothing you have described of yourself on this forum is something I personally have any quarrel with, or I would not have spoken to you in PM's if I "hated you for being a MUSLIM." So don't lump US as hating YOU and peaceful, quiet people when there is a nearly ENDLESS WAR being waged by Muslims for hundreds of years and this has a lot of people extremely upset with them and their fanatical teachings.

And don't try to tell me about the so-called "peaceful" variety since they are a literal MINORITY and not representative. Their existence doesn't change anything. And sugar coating by denials of real problems with the fanatical majority doesn't cause anyone to understand you better. The problems we are having are obvious. Why deny them attempting to protect some "good reputation" of ISLAM? You can't. It's not even realistic to speak of "moderate" Muslims, when it comes to analysis, there will ALWAYS be fanatical Muslims so long as FANATICISM remains an article of faith, legitimate in Islamic scripture and accepted as authentic teaching. So ISLAM itself is problematic.

I am telling you HONESTLY, whether you can accept it or not, Sufism does not fit into a category of accepted ISLAM and is considered a heretical sect by those same fanatics we are talking about. THIS post is a response to THAT post, and so the context is THAT conversation. You were already informed by devotee on that thread that we had been discussing the issues brought up by fundamentalist jihadis trained in madrassas which are infiltrating into India and behind last year's Mumbai attack.

Don't derail everything we WERE discussing to prove how "GOOD" you think Islam is, and how we are so stupid not to know their are peaceful sects like Sufis and Bahai's that exist (And which are also being infiltrated by fundamentalist Muslims just like Sikhism.)

SO I don't care about your dozen links of peaceful Muslim sites. Your Queen of Jordan is considered a defiled American collaborator by the fanatics, so her opinions fall into the same category as yours. They are not official, they reflect nothing. In an ISLAMIC revolution of clerics in Jordan she AND her King would be executed.

And I do resent, because of bitter experience with FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM, any Muslims of any kind trying to proselytize their beliefs and sugar-coat them. If you want to engage in a philosophical debate regarding MY DISPUTES with Islamic philosophy and ideology, you cannot erase or deny or hide the 90% of ISLAMIC OFFICIALDOM which literally DOES speak authoritatively for religion of ISLAM. They are screaming louder than you.

Respectfully, this is the Islamic section, and you have been honored with the full freedom to discuss ISLAM here per SATAY and per forum consensus, and I have no dispute with that, nor shall I derail any RESPECTFUL (toward Hindu/Sikh religion) Islamic religion topic threads you wish to share here. My purpose is ONLY to fight against Islamic missionaries.You can believe in the devil and I will not even oppose you or utter a word. But if you ever speak against my faith, I will resist you to the core.

SIKHS ARE THE REASON INDIA IS NOT A MUSLIM COUNTRY.

As a SIKH I'm not interested to hear anything "good" about ISLAM. You can share that with those who are interested, and there are a few on this forum. As long as it does not get into negative (toward Hindus) comparisons and proselytizing, I will stay out of it.


Guru Arjan Dev Sahib ji's Martyrdom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClKdm8MvPN0

Kurbani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYmYQDQ1gUA

Kurbani Productions- Dhan Nauven Guru
Guru Tegh Bahadur was martyred and known as Hind di Chaadar(Protector of the Hindus) [hind di rakhi, protected the hindus].

In all of History no prophet of one faith has given Martyrdom for another's faith, Guru Tegh Bahadur's Martyrdom was for humanity to have the right to practice the religion they choose to, his Martyrdom stood against oppression of forceful conversions of Kashmiri Brahmin pandits to Islam by the ruling government of that time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eMP4A7-yW0
[B]Weapons of Mass Protection -
Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji Gatka Akhara
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytlve01e7Lshttp://gurmat.info/sms/smsarticles/sikhmartyrs/kakahakikatrai/haqiqatraebeingbeheaded.jpg
Sikh heritage ~ Martyr's for the Faith!

Spiritualseeker
20 December 2009, 08:09 AM
Namaste,

Thank you heartfully for sharing your views. but like it is suggested your views dont have anything to do with Islam. In Sahih bukhari the Prophet Muhammad says : "Every newly invented novelty in the religion is a bidah (innovation) every innovation is misguidance, every misguidance is in the hellfire"

You have innovated into the religion of Islam.



Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (2:256)


I spoke about this in my articles. I mentioned basically how this is BS since there is compulsion in religion when it comes to Islam such as killing the apostate or fighting the mushrikeen until they convert.


harjas is right your voice is nothing compared to orthodox islam which supports violence and hatred.

devotee
20 December 2009, 08:38 AM
Namaste Heartfully,

The logic you have given was known to me through lectures of Zakir Naik. But do you want me to believe that ? If that is true, then why the Islamic scholars did never say that, that part of revelation was for a certain period & for the hostile pagans only ? There is nothing which goes above Quran in Islam. Now, how do you think people will add theories like you or Dr Naik do, into Quranic verses and then take the correct meaning ? Why doesn't Quran say that those verses were applicable only in certain circumstances ?

If so much modification is allowed in Quran, I would be able to make a Bhagwad Gita out of Quran ! How many Muslim scholars would tolerate that & not cut my head off ??

Regarding oft quoted (by Islam sellers), "There is no compulsion in religion" ... how did you forget that those living in an Islamic country must remain subjugated & pay special tax for their faith ? And the watch the terms, "no compulsion" ... it is not a very respectable way of communicating equal treatment the other religion deserves. It is like, "I want you to be a Muslim ... but it is ok, if you so insist ... I will tolerate if you pay the tax & remain subjugated under me !". That is no compulsion indeed ! How many Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists are left in Pakistan & Afghanistan today ? Forget about people from other religions ... the area of Afghanistan, India & Pakistan was where the Sufism had attained great heights in the past. Try to find out how many Sufis are left today in Pakistan & Afghanistan.

............................

I don't say that you are not a good human being. I do love you as you love me. I feel that Rumi, Hallaz, Rabia etc. were enlightened beings. I have many good friends who are Muslims. .... But they are not because of Quran & Muhammad ... they are so in spite of Quran & Muhammad ! Hats off to those courageous Muslims who are not afraid of the bogus threat of eternal fire of hell !

BTW, you said that you want to learn about Hinduism. My dear sister, this religion is like an ocean compared to all the three Abrahimic religions combined. There are various paths ... various philosophies ... sometimes seemingly contradictory, nearly 1000 authoritative scriptures etc.. You need a lot of patience to have a real feel of Hinduism. However, if you are interested what is the highest philosophy within Hinduism, you may follow the thread, "Aham Brhamasmi", "Aham Brahmasmi-2" & other good threads in Advaita part of the Philosophy forums.

OM

Kumar_Das
27 May 2010, 05:27 PM
Namaste,

Please know I do not want to create conflict here. I have had many battles with Islam, but I feel at this point I need to defend my interpretation of Islam. That puts me in a very very difficult place. Lots of Muslims hate me; lots of non-Muslims hate me.

Its a lonely place, but I feel it is what the Divine wants me to be right now.

If the conservatives walked into my house, they would criticize me. I have pictures of Jesus, Mary, Isis, Tara, Qwan Yin and Buddha. Next to my various translations of Quran are the Dhammapada, the Upanishads, books on wicca, books by gay and lesbian Muslims, books about playing guitar and drawing animals. My cd collection includes rock music, hip hop, qawwalis, gospel, opera.

This month I am celebrating Christmas, Yule, Santa Lucia Day. I have runes; I support the way a woman chooses to dress whether its in burka or bikini as long as its her choice. I even curse when I stub my toe. My dawn prayer includes the gayatri prayer and salat.

I personally have no problems with non-Hindus taking only a part of Hinduism while engaging in another non-Hindu religion or a whole concotion of non-Hindu religions.

In the end its a person's personal beliefs which they have all the liberties to choose. Which I have no say in.

But thats where I draw the line. You do what you want. And you do what want as long as you dont interfere with me.

I have seen several non-Indians/non-Hindus very clearly describing/discussing/debating Hindu concepts yet giving no reference to their usage. And others, those of the "new age" sort uploading Hindu mantras yet slaughtering away with other religious prayers and what not. And they have a very poor understanding of whatever they take from Hinduism.

Hinduism is tolerant, inclusive and pluralistic. But I think this should not be taken for granted.

You seem to be yet another new age-er that combines everything yet is sure of nothing.

I stay as far away as I can from people who speak about "unity", "love" and "harmony" in the name of religion.

In this Kali yuga, there are people who are detrimental to enlightenment of two types.

Those who like to preach equality and throw everything into a blender and make a thick mixture. And those who are aggressive and declare every religion is inherently evil altogether.



So why do I still stay connected to Islam? I want to be near to the Beloved more than I want anything else.

Then you should stay with what you think you are the closest to.

Islam took away the scary God I saw in the Bible and told me at the beginning of every chapter of Quran that God is Merciful and Compassionate.


Claims arent always lived up to.

Allah, just like every other semitic deity, is a merciless intolerant jealous insecure fear monger. And a far worse one at that in my opinion. Atleast Yahweh was an outright vicious and vengeful deity. Allah creeps into every corner of human rationality and keeps asserting and ensuring that the consequence of rejecting the quran will result in dire consequences.

A merciful and compassionate deity does not cast you into eternal torment for rejecting him.


It taught me to look at the injustices... at the violence, at the oppression, at the misogyny and chauvanism,

Ha! Islam has only perfected at all these.

As a Hindu my people have a millenia in our history of bloodshed and brutality of proportions unparalleled anywhere else under the hands of muslim invaders.

My response to anyone who brings islam up and says islam is and that is final and clear. I just dont give a jacksquat.

I am deeply offended by islam and I will not permit any room for it.


at my own ego's stubborn ways, at the hungry who have no choice about fasting during ramadan, at the way my father (a Catholic) beat my mother, at how women are objectified, at the way the moon stays in the sky yet a pebble I toss toward the sky comes back to the ground, at the mysteries of the universe, at the fact I will not be here forever and I better get my priorities straight because one day I will be dead and look over my life and how I will feel that I spent more time watching the late night show than helping others.

Yeah, you dont have to have a religion to teach you all this. To say "x" religion is such and such. "x" religion is whatever it wants to be, to people who accepts it.

Buddhism is far more moral and righteous. Whats your point?

"x" religion may be very nice to those who practice it. But "x" religion permits massacre, rape, violence, torture, slavery, humiliation and terror to all those outside of it.

And all of these islam has done to Hindus.



I read something recently that told me I needed to think hard about the energy I put in the world and the the way faith and doubt effect me (and then the energy around me).

I don't want to sell Islam. I will never ever do that to anyone. But I would like to show people that some Muslims (many Muslims) are kind, gentle, loving, charitable, generous, democrat, peace-loving, tolerant, openminded, accepting, animal lovers, pacifists.


Yeah well we all have heard about this a dozen times. And obviously humans are humans and humans tend to be different with different tendencies, attitudes, temperaments and personalities. That applies to pretty much every group you can think of.

And I dont deny this. Infact I personally can prove this as well.


All I want is to be accepted for who I am and not blamed for the violence of another Muslim.

Yes of course.

But the muslim bond trascends all barriers and muslims see themselves as a single unit. Islam seeks to dominate. Whenever there is a victory for some muslim somewhere, it is a celebration for the whole ummah.

So, no offense. I just dont want anything to do with islam. Islam has got nothing to offer me.

There might be nice people among muslims. But if there is a billion muslims today in this world, its not because islam was gentle and peace loving but because it sought expansion and domination. And much of the means it achieved this was far from what you are trying to paint islam as.

We have lost afghanistan, pakistan, bangladesh, malaysia and indonesia.

Slowly now my India is losing. I dont want to betray my people and participate in its destruction.


You can choose to be a loving person. I have nothing against that. But when you try and think islam has got any good to offer, then you are sadly mistaken.

I would like to start a thread here, not to sell you on Islam, but to show that there are many, many good Muslims in this world. Will you give them a chance to speak? Not because I'm here to hit you over the head with Islam, but because I mean it when I look to the right and left at the end of salat and wish all creation "I offer you the greetings of peace and the blessings of the Divine upon you".

I will start that thread now. All I ask is you read the thread with an open heart. There was a time when The Jeffersons sit com was a very controversial thing. Why? Because of the color of their skin. Because of the color of their skin, the Jeffersons reminded people that slavery and prejudice needed to end.

I love you all. I really do. Maybe that makes me a crazy freak, but I love you.

Love to you,
Heartfully

I've read the quran. I find it utterly repulsive.


Namaste heartfully

May the almighty Ishwara-Allah-God guide you and may the love spread.

Om

Allah and any Hindu deity(ies) are not the same.

What is it that you are trying to imply by saying Ishwara and allah are the same? Allah is a meglomaniac hell bent on humans following the words of muhammad.

Are you telling me that a woman who worships Shiva, is going to be resurrected and have 72 virgin men waiting to satisfy her in her afterlife?

When a muslim brings Hinduism up. For sure he has the same intentions as zakir naik. To convert.

There is no "common ground". And there is no need to create one.

If muslims want to be nice, I see no problem. They can put aside their islam first and then we can be friends.

Peace.

Kumar_Das
27 May 2010, 06:07 PM
.....

Ugh those quotes.

So much for me even thinking the slightest that she was being genuine. *facepalm*

I guess she was doing taqiyyah. But taqiyyah at the cost being a fasiq.

In that thread her posts did not debate how muhammad was enlightened but based upon emotional slinging at Hinduism.

muhammad is a mere man, a guru at best. yet she compares him with the Hindu deities...