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heartfully
20 December 2009, 08:17 AM
Namaste,

How is magic viewed in Hinduism? Also are there shamans within Hinduism?

Love to you,
Heartfully

Eastern Mind
20 December 2009, 09:02 AM
Vannakkam: Life is magic! The Gods are magic. God is magic. Prayer is magic. Inner beings who guide are magic. Gurus and mystics perform magic, on the inside by realligning kundalini currents, or opening astral passsages, or closing psychic side paths. Siddhis obtained or granted because of sustained devotion or realisation are magic.

But it is not a MAGIC SHOW!

Aum Namasivaya

heartfully
20 December 2009, 09:17 AM
:) Namaste,

That's good to hear. Some view magic as manipulation, others view it as mingling with Destiny and Possibility.

To me, it is a form of prayer.

When we truly consider the world around us, it is an amazing mystery. What makes us breathe? Why does what's not solid appear solid? How does the whales voice travel so many miles? It is an awe inspiring mystery, isn't it?

Science tries to numb us to that sense of awe by giving it reasons, but scientific discoveries often leave me even more in awe of this amazing universe we somehow exist in.

Love to you,
Heartfully


Vannakkam: Life is magic! The Gods are magic. God is magic. Prayer is magic. Inner beings who guide are magic. Gurus and mystics perform magic, on the inside by realligning kundalini currents, or opening astral passsages, or closing psychic side paths. Siddhis obtained or granted because of sustained devotion or realisation are magic.

But it is not a MAGIC SHOW!

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
20 December 2009, 01:45 PM
Interesting question. As a scientist I do not believe in magic, and I think that belief in magic often comes from a lack of knowledge about how things work. A long time ago people used to think that certain spectacular chemical reactions were magic. Today we no longer believe this. So I think that things which today are called magic will cease to be called as such once we know how they work.

I do, however, believe in the supernatural, and I believe that God isn't restrained from doing anything. But the difference here is that I believe supernatural occurences are controlled by God and not ordinary mortals. In ancient India rishis would sometimes perform supernatural deeds, but these only worked because God obeys the wishes of those who have surrendered to him. I believe this is different from magic because magic is indiscriminant, whereas God's power is only used as per his will.

Spiritualseeker
20 December 2009, 06:59 PM
namaste,

sanjaya perhaps magic and feats that are done are simply done with the power of intention or will power?

Just a guess
-juan

ScottMalaysia
21 December 2009, 12:08 AM
I've heard that there are Shaktas who practice magic and bring about supernatural changes. I don't know much about that, though, and I'm not going to get involved with it in any way.

heartfully
21 December 2009, 04:58 AM
Namaste,

Sanjaya, what is the work you do? I used to feel things were less mysterious when science could explain it. But I tend to be like a child who keeps saying "why?" even after science explains it. It still leaves me in awe that there is so much happening within this universe. I understand gravity and scientific reasons for wings making birds fly, but I still feel a sense of awe when I start contemplating how some things cause the ability to fly. Its hard for me to put this into words.

Knowing that magic has been practiced in so many of the oldest religions, I wondered how it has been viewed/practiced/forbidden in Hinduism.

Love to you,
Heartfully


Interesting question. As a scientist I do not believe in magic, and I think that belief in magic often comes from a lack of knowledge about how things work. A long time ago people used to think that certain spectacular chemical reactions were magic. Today we no longer believe this. So I think that things which today are called magic will cease to be called as such once we know how they work.

I do, however, believe in the supernatural, and I believe that God isn't restrained from doing anything. But the difference here is that I believe supernatural occurences are controlled by God and not ordinary mortals. In ancient India rishis would sometimes perform supernatural deeds, but these only worked because God obeys the wishes of those who have surrendered to him. I believe this is different from magic because magic is indiscriminant, whereas God's power is only used as per his will.

heartfully
21 December 2009, 05:19 AM
Namaste,

Juan, our thoughts and emotions do have a profound effect at the atmosphere surrounding us.

I used to think that all magic was superstitious, but I think there is a lesson in it about how our intentions effect the universe. Mr. Emoto's pictures of drops of water is the type of thing that causes me to wonder how things like a wiccan spell might actually work.

Another thing that caused me to feel a sense of wonder about how we interact with our environment was when I was at a craft fair and at a jewelers booth I picked up a beautiful piece of jasper (I think it was called "Painted Indian" jasper). There was a fascinating sense like a buzz up and down my spine.

One reason I wondered about magic in Hinduism is how our knowledge of chakras is a gift from within Hinduism. Its interesting to consider how much we can change just by working with chakras.

I have become more childlike in the past couple years by allowing myself to not have all the answers. Its so easy to let a word or a few words take the magic out of life. Once we know our colors, we stop asking as many questions about colors. We look at the sky with wonder when we're young and once we know the sky is blue and the it is the sun, moon and stars shining, we lose that awesome feeling.

To me, that awe is a way of honoring the magnificence of Divine Omnipotence. That means I have a lot of concerns about how using magic to change Divine plans. But maybe we are part of the way the plans are made?

Love to you,
Heartfully


namaste,

sanjaya perhaps magic and feats that are done are simply done with the power of intention or will power?

Just a guess
-juan

Spiritualseeker
21 December 2009, 06:27 AM
Namaste,

I think that is great heartfully. It is like having a beginners mind as the people of Zen say. If you know about Mr. Emoto then I am sure you watched What the Bleep do We Know. The film was just amazing. Quantum PHysics is my favorite science. If you are not aware there is a follow up film called "How far down the Rabbits hole do you wanna go?". It is awesome it contains some of the same scenes but further explanations and also clarifications of what was said in what the Bleep do we know.

I truely believe just like you that our thoughts effect what we see and the environment. The Buddha said all that we are is what we have thought up. So if we have negative thoughts all the time our world will be gloomy, if we have positive uplifting thoughts we see God ineverything :)

heartfully
21 December 2009, 07:30 AM
Namaste,

I loved What the Bleep Do We Know. That movie was like a wake up call for me to stop looking at the world without wonder. Quantum physics is something I would like to study more. What are some books you would recommend to those who are just starting to study it? I will have to google for websites also.

I haven't seen the follow up film to What the Bleep Do We Know?, but you reminded me of how I wanted to see it so I'll add it to my list. :) Muchas Gracias!

It is interesting how, in reality, we are making up what we see. We define the world, but it is not what the world is, its what we are.

I was just thinking to myself about half an hour ago: How do we know we know what we know when maybe we don't know? Yup, that's how crazy I get in my head sometimes, lol. :D

Love to you,
Heartfully


Namaste,

I think that is great heartfully. It is like having a beginners mind as the people of Zen say. If you know about Mr. Emoto then I am sure you watched What the Bleep do We Know. The film was just amazing. Quantum PHysics is my favorite science. If you are not aware there is a follow up film called "How far down the Rabbits hole do you wanna go?". It is awesome it contains some of the same scenes but further explanations and also clarifications of what was said in what the Bleep do we know.

I truely believe just like you that our thoughts effect what we see and the environment. The Buddha said all that we are is what we have thought up. So if we have negative thoughts all the time our world will be gloomy, if we have positive uplifting thoughts we see God ineverything :)

Spiritualseeker
21 December 2009, 07:44 AM
Lets keep "dont know mind". I believe you can watch "How far down the Rabbits hole" on youtube. I think thats how my wife and I found it. I think some good books would be anything by Fred Alan Wolf. He was in What the Bleep do we know (the kooky old guy). He is awesome and makes quantum physics more understanble to the layman.

Gassho
-juan

heartfully
21 December 2009, 08:56 AM
Namaste,

I found two playlists for Down the Rabbits Hole:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0C281E4A33BB16B2&search_query=down+the+rabbit+hole

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3031D90C1195AEB3&search_query=down+the+rabbit+hole


Lets keep "dont know mind". I believe you can watch "How far down the Rabbits hole" on youtube. I think thats how my wife and I found it. I think some good books would be anything by Fred Alan Wolf. He was in What the Bleep do we know (the kooky old guy). He is awesome and makes quantum physics more understanble to the layman.

Gassho
-juan

sanjaya
21 December 2009, 12:16 PM
Namaste,

Sanjaya, what is the work you do? I used to feel things were less mysterious when science could explain it. But I tend to be like a child who keeps saying "why?" even after science explains it. It still leaves me in awe that there is so much happening within this universe. I understand gravity and scientific reasons for wings making birds fly, but I still feel a sense of awe when I start contemplating how some things cause the ability to fly. Its hard for me to put this into words.

Knowing that magic has been practiced in so many of the oldest religions, I wondered how it has been viewed/practiced/forbidden in Hinduism.

I do astrophysics. And I fully agree with you that learning how things work does not take away from the awe of those things. As you said (or rather didn't), many things in our world have ineffable qualities that cannot be expressed in words.

Regarding magic, I think it's important to not get Western and Eastern terms confused. In the West, Christianity tends to define magic in terms of supernatural powers controlled by demons or the devil. That's why Western religions tend to prohibit the use of magic. In Hindu stories, there are many people who display supernatural powers, such as rishis and other sages. But this is not "magic," in the Western sense. I don't think anyone on this forum is confusing our use of the word magic for the demonic variety, but this is just something to remember when communicating with Christians.

And regarding the discussion on, "What the Bleep." There are a lot of things that the movie explains well (e.g. the quantum double slit experiment). There are also some things that it may be unintentionally misrepresenting, including a lot of the spiritual stuff. And then there's at least one thing that's flat out wrong: namely the water crystal experiment. For those readers who haven't seen the movie, they say that by saying good things to vials of frozen water, like "I love you," you can create crystal patterns that look aesthetically pleasing. But by speaking, "I hate you" to the water, you can destroy those crystals. If you look up the experiment on Wikipedia, you'll find that the study was not double blind, which introduces observer bias. Even the experimenter said that this was not meant to be a genuine scientific experiment, but was intended for entertainment. The problem here is that the observer knew which vials had been treated with good words and bad words, and thus selected portions of the water under the microscope which had the qualities he was looking for. A real water crystal has both "good," and "bad" looking regions, irrespective of what words you say to it. I think it's important for Hindus to avoid all forms of pseudoscience, lest the same thing happen to us that has happened to Christian creationists. Our faith is already in full agreement with science, and does not need to be defended with fallacious arguments.

Quantum mechanics is ultimately a mathematical science, and many of the concepts can only be understood by considering the mathematical formalism. This is something that a lot of books for laypeople leave out. And unlike other areas of physics, leaving out the math takes away the essence of the science. It's a hard subject; I've taken many graduate level classes in it, and I still don't understand it completely. If anyone is interested, I could recommend books on quantum physics written by more mainstream scientists.

heartfully
21 December 2009, 04:06 PM
I do astrophysics. And I fully agree with you that learning how things work does not take away from the awe of those things. As you said (or rather didn't), many things in our world have ineffable qualities that cannot be expressed in words.


When I was younger, science pointed away from God (ie- biology class and chemistry in high school was so dry for me and I would struggle to stay present in class, but I think that was due to the personalities of the science teachers I had. Maybe if I'd had a teacher who used what we discovering to show us how miraculous this universe is, I would have been more interested in science as a kid).

In my 30s, when I worked in a large library, I found myself looking forward to new issues of the science magazines because there was always such interesting stuff in it. The same things that bored me as a kid, I began to love as I got older. Coincidentally (or not), I started believing in God around that time.



Regarding magic, I think it's important to not get Western and Eastern terms confused. In the West, Christianity tends to define magic in terms of supernatural powers controlled by demons or the devil. That's why Western religions tend to prohibit the use of magic. In Hindu stories, there are many people who display supernatural powers, such as rishis and other sages. But this is not "magic," in the Western sense. I don't think anyone on this forum is confusing our use of the word magic for the demonic variety, but this is just something to remember when communicating with Christians.


Magic means a lot of things and some religions and cultures seem more openminded about things like that. A few years ago, there started being people who call themselves "christopagan". That seemed to be a contradiction to me, but I think Jesus' teachings in Aramaic tend to point to more reverence for earth. We all know Christianity as monotheistic, but I was just reading something in a Huston Smith book about how the concept of the Trinity has over the years caused some to wonder if it is polytheistic. But that's a topic for another thread on some other forum, I suppose.

Another thing I read in the Huston Smith book (its required reading for my cherag training) this afternoon was how Eastern Orthodoxy has been influenced by having been created close to India. It explained how this branch of Christianity views some things in a way that is typically more Hindu than Christian.

An author by the name of Jennifer Hunter has blended the Judaism (I believe she grew up in a Jewish family) with wicca and paganism. Again it seemed odd to me at first, but I found a really fascinating yahoogroup that actually taught me about magic and shamanism being very much in the history of Judaism.



And regarding the discussion on, "What the Bleep." There are a lot of things that the movie explains well (e.g. the quantum double slit experiment). There are also some things that it may be unintentionally misrepresenting, including a lot of the spiritual stuff.


I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I suppose Spirituality is always going to be more subjective.



And then there's at least one thing that's flat out wrong: namely the water crystal experiment. For those readers who haven't seen the movie, they say that by saying good things to vials of frozen water, like "I love you," you can create crystal patterns that look aesthetically pleasing. But by speaking, "I hate you" to the water, you can destroy those crystals. If you look up the experiment on Wikipedia, you'll find that the study was not double blind, which introduces observer bias. Even the experimenter said that this was not meant to be a genuine scientific experiment, but was intended for entertainment. The problem here is that the observer knew which vials had been treated with good words and bad words, and thus selected portions of the water under the microscope which had the qualities he was looking for. A real water crystal has both "good," and "bad" looking regions, irrespective of what words you say to it. I think it's important for Hindus to avoid all forms of pseudoscience, lest the same thing happen to us that has happened to Christian creationists. Our faith is already in full agreement with science, and does not need to be defended with fallacious arguments.


I still want to believe that love radiates in a way that makes a positive difference. Hopefully, just as some people feel they can "cut the tension with a knife" when they walk into a room where people are arguing then the opposite might also be true. I hope the energy of love will one day be proven to have positive power. I am no scientist though so this is all wishful thinking for me.



Quantum mechanics is ultimately a mathematical science, and many of the concepts can only be understood by considering the mathematical formalism. This is something that a lot of books for laypeople leave out. And unlike other areas of physics, leaving out the math takes away the essence of the science. It's a hard subject; I've taken many graduate level classes in it, and I still don't understand it completely. If anyone is interested, I could recommend books on quantum physics written by more mainstream scientists.

Yes, I would like some recommendations on books geared toward laypeople. It is a fascinating topic. I'll never be a scientist, but I love learning about science.

Love to you,
Heartfully