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heartfully
21 December 2009, 07:42 AM
Is there a way to use science and/or religion to answer the following:

How do we know we know what we know?

And, for extra credit, :D is there a continuum to knowing? IE- If you know the sky is blue, but you don't know which shade of blue, do you know know what color the sky is? If you learn what shade of blue the sky is, does that mean you didn't know the sky before?

And, one last chance for extra credit, :D Does science or religion lead you personally to what you know?

The first ten people to get the right answer win 2 tickets to the moon. Well, wait, who will decide who is right and who is wrong? :D :D :D

Love to you,
heartfully

devotee
21 December 2009, 08:52 AM
I hope it doesn't derail your idea behind this thread. If it does, I am sorry. But if you ask me, I will reply as given below :

First of all, know the knower. Who claims that he/she knows ? You think you know yourself but actually you know only the labels that you have accumulated for yourself which are given by this world to you or you have given to yourself based on your relative concepts.

Who are you ?

OM

heartfully
21 December 2009, 09:21 AM
Namaste,

Ahhhh, Devotee, you get 2 tickets to the moon. :)

I like your answer. It doesn't derail.

I want to ask a couple questions to understand more of your perspective.

What do you think you know about me?
In your opinion, who knows me better...me or you?
Is there only one Knower?
Do you want to know who you are?

Why do you believe I started this thread?

Love to you,
Heartfully



I hope it doesn't derail your idea behind this thread. If it does, I am sorry. But if you ask me, I will reply as given below :

First of all, know the knower. Who claims that he/she knows ? You think you know yourself but actually you know only the labels that you have accumulated for yourself which are given by this world to you or you have given to yourself based on your relative concepts.

Who are you ?

OM

Eastern Mind
21 December 2009, 09:25 AM
Namaste:

Personally, I know nothing. Just regurgitated jibberish.

Aum Namasivaya

heartfully
21 December 2009, 09:43 AM
Namaste,

For some reason this reminded me of the teacher in the Peanuts cartoons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUyLwXhqlWU :D

Love to you,
Heartfully


Namaste:

Personally, I know nothing. Just regurgitated jibberish.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
21 December 2009, 01:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM



Namaste:

Personally, I know nothing.

I too confess I too know little to nothing ... more to the nothing side. I ( like many) stand on the shoulders of the wise. Without them I am like a boat with no rudder in the sea of saṃskāra.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
21 December 2009, 01:28 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


I too confess I too know little to nothing ... more to the nothing side. I ( like many) stand on the shoulders of the wise. Without them I am like a boat with no rudder in the sea of saṃskāra.


Like a rider on the storm. A dog without a bone?

At least your sea has a name. I guess having those shoulders is better than nothing at all.

Aum

Harjas Kaur
21 December 2009, 01:31 PM
I would have sent devotee ji to the moon for free. :p

devotee
21 December 2009, 08:34 PM
Namaste HF,


What do you think you know about me?

Whatever you reflect from your posts ! I know that it is only a very partial reflection which in no way can describe you. So I don't know you.


In your opinion, who knows me better...me or you?

You don't know yourself. The "You" that you think you are is actually a bundle of thoughts which are formed based on reflection of your body-mind entity reflected from the World as the mirror. As the mirror is the changing world & the perceiver is your changing mind ... your concept of you keeps changing because that concept is not formed independently but it is dependent on those reflections & the reliability of the perceiver. That is why your ever changing physical appearance, your ever changing mood, your ever changing understanding, your ever changing personality as a whole ... creates something (a bundle of thoughts) ... which is changing every moment ... which you think you are & the world also thinks that way. Actually, you are not that.

So, the truth is ... neither of us knows the real you. There is nothing like better or worse here. If you see a baby animal & say that it is a Cat & I say that it is a Dog ... when the truth is that it is baby Panda then who knows it better, you or me ?


Is there only one Knower ?

Yes, but it would be difficult for you to believe that ! :)


Do you want to know who you are?

If I don't then I am a big fool. All answers to all my restlessness lies in the answer to that question. .... Sorry not only mine but yours too ! You must know yourself ... that is the game we all are in.


Why do you believe I started this thread?

I don't believe ... I know. You may believe that you started this thread for showing your playful nature .... for breaking the ice for making friends here on this forum ... making us know more about your logical side of your personality ... etc. But believe me that is not true.

The Truth is ... You too are seeking this answer ... Who you are & why ?

OM

sanjaya
23 December 2009, 03:26 PM
Is there a way to use science and/or religion to answer the following:

How do we know we know what we know?

And, for extra credit, :D is there a continuum to knowing? IE- If you know the sky is blue, but you don't know which shade of blue, do you know know what color the sky is? If you learn what shade of blue the sky is, does that mean you didn't know the sky before?

And, one last chance for extra credit, :D Does science or religion lead you personally to what you know?

The first ten people to get the right answer win 2 tickets to the moon. Well, wait, who will decide who is right and who is wrong? :D :D :D

Love to you,
heartfully

This is actually a very deep question. So deep in fact that there's a branch of philosophy, called epistemology, dedicated to the study of how we can know things. Personally I like to start with the assumption that I can trust my own senses. Maybe this isn't a good assumption, given that the entire world is just God's Maya, and that human senses can sometimes fail us. In response to the latter problem, I do allow for the possility that my sensory perception may be incorrect, when it deviates from the norm.

Regarding your second question, the issue may not be so much a continuum of knowledge as it is a resolution. Specific shades of blue are subsets of blue. So to say that the sky is blue is correct; it just has larger "error bars" (if you will) than stating the specific shade of blue. And FYI, the sky actually consists of a spectrum of colors that peaks in the blue. So it wouldn't be right to say that the sky is any particular shade of blue.

And as for the third question, I tend to trust science first to tell me about the world, because unlike religion it isn't open to as much interpretation. Hinduism has multiple creation myths. None of them are "correct" when taken literally, but they convey important spiritual truth when interpreted correctly. With science we don't need to speculate as much. The information is given to us directly. And because the universe was created by God, I do not consider the usage of science to learn about the world to be in any way secular or atheistic. It's also important to remember that there are things science simply doesn't do. Science doesn't tell us anything about morality. It is absolutely amoral, and teaches us nothing about how we ought to use the knowledge we gain from our study. As Sri Krishna said, he always incarnates himself to decrease unrighteousness and increase righteousness. It is the role of religion to teach us how to live, and of science to teach us about the world.

smaranam
23 December 2009, 03:39 PM
Namaste

QN : How do we know we know what we know ?

Ans: Our job is to know Brahman, but its not like knowing that the sky is blue, because we ARE Brahman, so to know Brahman , you 'become' Brahman i.e. realize that you are.

Kena Upanishad 1.4 - 8

1-4. That which the speech cannot reveal, but causes the speech to flow, know that alone to be Brahman, not this that you worship here.

1-5. That which mind cannot conceptualize , but by which the mind does conceptualize, know that alone to be Brahman , not this that you worship here.

1-6. That which the eye cannot see, but by which the eye does see, know that alone to be Brahman' , and not this that you worship here.

I-7. That which man does not hear with the ear, that by which man hears [the ear’s hearing] , know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

I-8. That which man does not smell with the organ of smell, that by which the organ of smell is attracted towards its objects, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

(I skip the extra credits , as Brahman is all there is)

sanjaya
24 December 2009, 09:08 PM
Namaste

QN : How do we know we know what we know ?

Ans: Our job is to know Brahman, but its not like knowing that the sky is blue, because we ARE Brahman, so to know Brahman, you 'become' Brahman i.e. realize that you are.

Hi Smarnanam. If I may make an inquiry, the text you cited seems to imply that there is a distinction between Brahman and the rest of the created world (or at least between God as we worship him, and Brahman). Could you elaborate on how this texts relates to the idea of all things being a part of Brahman?

Feel free to start a new thread if this may deviate from the discussion on knowledge. But I would really like to understand this text better.

smaranam
25 December 2009, 07:38 AM
Hi Sanjaya

Please see my response here, under Philosophy-->Advaita
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=37146#post37146

Namaste

heartfully
25 December 2009, 10:41 AM
Namaste! And thank you very very much for sharing the wisdom from the Upanishad. It has answered some prayers!

Love to you,
Heartfully


Namaste

QN : How do we know we know what we know ?

Ans: Our job is to know Brahman, but its not like knowing that the sky is blue, because we ARE Brahman, so to know Brahman , you 'become' Brahman i.e. realize that you are.

Kena Upanishad 1.4 - 8

1-4. That which the speech cannot reveal, but causes the speech to flow, know that alone to be Brahman, not this that you worship here.

1-5. That which mind cannot conceptualize , but by which the mind does conceptualize, know that alone to be Brahman , not this that you worship here.

1-6. That which the eye cannot see, but by which the eye does see, know that alone to be Brahman' , and not this that you worship here.

I-7. That which man does not hear with the ear, that by which man hears [the ear’s hearing] , know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

I-8. That which man does not smell with the organ of smell, that by which the organ of smell is attracted towards its objects, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

(I skip the extra credits , as Brahman is all there is)

smaranam
25 December 2009, 04:13 PM
Namaste

I am glad to hear that. :)

May the Lord continue to shower His blessings on you.

kd gupta
26 December 2009, 08:50 AM
Actually we don’t know what we know but don’t want to know .

Some say galaxies are coming closer and there is a major chance of collision and destruction but actually we don’t know that Vedas know more and much .
Our rishis had declared that there will be a pralaya by drowning and that is more scientific than science says , why ?
There are clockwise and anticlockwise currents on north and south pole respect. They will try to make storms with high velocities when global warming and pressure increase is there and thus making the north and south at an ice age and our aryavart as drowned near to equator , but who cares the both ways ?
Better make money and go to jannat and meet the hoors , let others die of Hunger and terrorism rather . Do we know that we know is nothing we know ?
I think FOOLS are found here in earth only , which is the Hell of other Planet .

heartfully
27 December 2009, 09:04 AM
Namaste,

So much to contemplate here. Thanks for adding to the thread. I will reply as I, Goddess willing, contemplate and feel led.

Love to you,
Heartfully


Actually we don’t know what we know but don’t want to know .

Some say galaxies are coming closer and there is a major chance of collision and destruction but actually we don’t know that Vedas know more and much .
Our rishis had declared that there will be a pralaya by drowning and that is more scientific than science says , why ?
There are clockwise and anticlockwise currents on north and south pole respect. They will try to make storms with high velocities when global warming and pressure increase is there and thus making the north and south at an ice age and our aryavart as drowned near to equator , but who cares the both ways ?
Better make money and go to jannat and meet the hoors , let others die of Hunger and terrorism rather . Do we know that we know is nothing we know ?
I think FOOLS are found here in earth only , which is the Hell of other Planet .