Fake gurus and organizations.

[kshama]

Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

I intrigued and struggle to understand, why fake organizations, bogus gurus are so much prevalent everywhere in the world. In India, there are many ''famous'' guru's and baba's that are proven to be fake in the media, yet people still go to them why?

It is said, in order to get out of the darkness, people need to find a guru so there will be light. But, what if the guru him/herself is epitome of darkness.

One may say, only good people will have satguru, the ones with bad karma will get fake guru. Now, the suffering of people with bad karma is not given attention at all, why?

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam kshama:

We walk a very fine line when we open up this topic. My advice is to avoid it. Who are we to judge whether or not a guru is fake? Besides, what good can come of it? If it is a really serious matter, then the laws of the country take over. If not, then the universal law of karma, created by God himself, most surely will. The actions of others are really none of our business. My own Guru taught his devotees to show respect to all other Gurus, and to act towards them in the way which I just mentioned. Privately, you have the right to think whichever way you want to. But to openly criticize another's Guru is openly criticize that person themselves. So then we create the karma of having someone criticize us.

Aum Namasivaya

[kshama]

Vanakkam kshama:

We walk a very fine line when we open up this topic. My advice is to avoid it. Who are we to judge whether or not a guru is fake? Besides, what good can come of it? If it is a really serious matter, then the laws of the country take over. If not, then the universal law of karma, created by God himself, most surely will. The actions of others are really none of our business. My own Guru taught his devotees to show respect to all other Gurus, and to act towards them in the way which I just mentioned. Privately, you have the right to think whichever way you want to. But to openly criticize another's Guru is openly criticize that person themselves. So then we create the karma of having someone criticize us.

Aum Namasivaya


Vanakkam Eastern Mind Ji,

I beg to differ. There are many false guru's out there. They make use of gullible people.

The wise said, that in this Kali yuga, there will be false gurus. That's why we should learn more about our religion and scriptures and equip ourselves with basic knowledge. By this way at least, one can properly discern which is good and which is bad. In some cases, mere blind faith will do no good.

[Eastern Mind]

I beg to differ. There are many false guru's out there. They make use of gullible people.


Vanakkam:

They may be false to you, but obviously they are not false to their followers. (Otherwise they would have no followers.) I stand by my previous statement. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and criticize, that is your right. Just don't expect me to jump in.

Aum Namasivaya

[kshama]

Vanakkam Eastern Mind Ji,

Thanks for your views. My intention is good. There are good gurus, and people have been ardent followers till today. There are bogus guru's too, they too have ardent followers. That's a fact.

Our devotion, the yearning for a guru, and our emotional state, in certain cases are being exploited. That's why I put forth the questions initially.

How to save ourselves from being fooled, that's the main question of the thread and not to criticize any gurus. For me, whether you opine or not, it doesn't matter. What matters to me most, is how to ascertain aspirants, like myself, not to get involved in any bogus organizations. Namaste.

[devotee]

Namaste Kshama,

You must know if the person you are taking as Guru is genuine or fake. There is a story about a saint, perhaps Daadu, if I correctly remember the name.

Once a rich man, (let's assume his name as "Seeker") went to see Daadu to have him as his Guru. On the way to Daadu's home, Seeker found one man working in the fields. Seeker was carrying some gifts which he brought for Daadu to offer him & it was midday summer time. So, Seeker was tired & thought to take the help of that man. He approached that man & asked him to carry that load to Daadu's home & promised him to pay for that help. That man agreed immediately. He took that burden & carried it to Daadu's home. However, the house looked empty. Daadu was not there. Seeker asked that man, ". Here lives a great saint, Daadu ji. I came to ask him to accept me as his disciple. Do you know where he might have gone ?". The man smiled lovingly & said, "I am Daadu" ! Seeker was shocked ! He feel upon Daadu's feet & started weeping & saying : "Guruji, forgive me for my sins .... I asked you to carry my burden .... I am the most wretched man on this earth ... please forgive me though I don't deserve to be forgiven ... ". Daadu lifted from below, embraced him & said these comforting words : "My son, when you go market for buying a pitcher (made of mud), don't you hit it with your fingers to test if it is ok ? Here, you have come to take a Guru which is going to be the most important thing in your life ... so, what is wrong in testing the Guru ? By helping you carry that load, I showed you that I can carry all your burdens. I would have failed if I didn't."

My Guru ji says that you must be careful in choosing the right Guru. Guru must be Self-realised. He must be ordained by God for being a Guru. He also says that we attract people, Guru, friends, wife, son/daughter, employer depending upon our spiritual vibrations. So, imho, it is better to do some homework first on the Spiritiual journey & then only after a certain stage go for looking for a Guru. But that is my opinion only. There are many times when you have encounter with a real Guru just by His grace ! If that is the case, why wait ??

OM

[kshama]

Namaste Kshama,

You must know if the person you are taking as Guru is genuine or fake. There is a story about a saint, perhaps Daadu, if I correctly remember the name.

Once a rich man, (let's assume his name as "Seeker") went to see Daadu to have him as his Guru. On the way to Daadu's home, Seeker found one man working in the fields. Seeker was carrying some gifts which he brought for Daadu to offer him & it was midday summer time. So, Seeker was tired & thought to take the help of that man. He approached that man & asked him to carry that load to Daadu's home & promised him to pay for that help. That man agreed immediately. He took that burden & carried it to Daadu's home. However, the house looked empty. Daadu was not there. Seeker asked that man, ". Here lives a great saint, Daadu ji. I came to ask him to accept me as his disciple. Do you know where he might have gone ?". The man smiled lovingly & said, "I am Daadu" ! Seeker was shocked ! He feel upon Daadu's feet & started weeping & saying : "Guruji, forgive me for my sins .... I asked you to carry my burden .... I am the most wretched man on this earth ... please forgive me though I don't deserve to be forgiven ... ". Daadu lifted from below, embraced him & said these comforting words : "My son, when you go market for buying a pitcher (made of mud), don't you hit it with your fingers to test if it is ok ? Here, you have come to take a Guru which is going to be the most important thing in your life ... so, what is wrong in testing the Guru ? By helping you carry that load, I showed you that I can carry all your burdens. I would have failed if I didn't."

My Guru ji says that you must be careful in choosing the right Guru. Guru must be Self-realised. He must be ordained by God for being a Guru. He also says that we attract people, Guru, friends, wife, son/daughter, employer depending upon our spiritual vibrations. So, imho, it is better to do some homework first on the Spiritiual journey & then only after a certain stage go for looking for a Guru. But that is my opinion only. There are many times when you have encounter with a real Guru just by His grace ! If that is the case, why wait ??

OM

Namaste Devotee Ji,

That's very well said. In my humble opinion, anyone who wants to have a guru, have to equip themselves with the right knowledge and they are free to test the guru in order to ascertain this is what they are looking for.

I have seen, many good people with blind faith towards certain people. It only brings more misery and nowhere near the goal of this birth.

I know many people have been blessed with a guru here, but do have compassion on people who do not have any guru in this life. We can't just take things for granted when dealing with life-changing matter like finding a guru.

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam:

Devotee: That is an inspiring story, and you do speak wise words.

kshama: I think I misinterpreted or jumped to conclusions as to your purpose. I apologise for that. I agree with what Devotee said. Indeed you should take a hard look. But if you find one that doesn't suit your needs or your personality, that does not mean that Guru may not be the right one for others. I do not wish to name any, but as you and I know, there are many controversial teachers out there, and I have witnessed too many arguments between the faithful and the ones who feel duped. So best wishes in your search.

Aum Namasivaya

[kshama]

@ Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for the feedback. That's ok, no need to apologize. I am glad you see what I am trying to convey. Namaste.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

　
"Rely on the teachings to evaluate a guru:
Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

praṇām

[kshama]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

　
"Rely on the teachings to evaluate a guru:
Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

praṇām

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

Thanks for the quote from the Dalai Lama. It has lot's to think about.

[ScottMalaysia]

Yes, there are false gurus out there. Generally, if any guru asks you for money in exchange for "enlightenment" or "a special mantra", then he is fake.

[kshama]

@ ScottMalaysia Ji,

Thank you for your views.


@ All members

1) How to make sure we are in the right place, the right path?

2) What to look at in a Guru?

[Eastern Mind]

I am not saying that you accept what others accept but better if you keep that to yourself, so that you don't hurt other's sentiments & please don't be biased towards any saint without knowing the truth.

OM

Vanakkam Devotee: Exactly my point before. All you have to do is keep it to yourself. If your wife asks, "Is this a pretty sari?" and you think it's ugly, do you tell her?

Regarding finding a 'true' guru, I think it helps to spend some time in the actual presence, and try to figure it out for yourself, not relying on other peoples' viewpoints. There is also this not necessarily easily discerned thing called vibration, or darshan, which varies for everyone. You don't normally get the feel for that unless you are in someone's presence. Besides, whats the hurry? We probably have many lifetimes to go.

Being in a hurry is another western concept that has seeped into the east. In sociological terms, the goal of "having as much free time as you can" has been replace by "having as much money as you can". All originating from the one lifetime concept of Abrahamic religions.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

It may be that we Hindus go a bit too far in our pluralism, and often worship anyone who claims to be a guru or God without checking them out first. As others have mentioned, yes everyone has the right to worship as they choose. But when fake gurus start stealing money from their devotees or doing other unscrupulous acts, I think we need to step back and ask whether it's a good idea to let these people continue their schemes without any opposition.

[kshama]

@ Sanjaya Ji,



It may be that we Hindus go a bit too far in our pluralism, and often worship anyone who claims to be a guru or God without checking them out first. As others have mentioned, yes everyone has the right to worship as they choose. But when fake gurus start stealing money from their devotees or doing other unscrupulous acts, I think we need to step back and ask whether it's a good idea to let these people continue their schemes without any opposition.


The points you made above are good. Hindus (a majority) are known to be full of devotion, that's what some people try to exploit.

We can think for ourselves, and refrain ourselves from being exploited. We cannot help those with blind faith, sooner or later, they will know how futile their efforts. God is witnessing everthing.

[satay]

Pranam,



God is witnessing everthing.

This is probably the best thing I have read anywhere this whole year!
God is witnessing everything indeed!!

[LALKAR]

Namaste All,


I think the real Guru can prove something through WITS just like Maharshi Dayanand and Swami Vivekanand did. Both were different in there ways but they proved themselves

Even Freedom Fighters were there disciples for examples Subhash Chander Bose was disciple of Vivekanand ans Lala Lajpat Rai was disciple of Dayanand

I don't know about All Gurus, I met only few , and nobody proved any miracle.

Satya G do you know any real proven guru

[satay]

namaskar,


Satya G do you know any real proven guru

No, I don't.

I am sorry, I am not the kind that gets impressed by any guru that ends up on TV, no offence. I don't like to follow the large crowds. Probably this is because of my own ego.

[atanu]

@ Sanjaya Ji,
God is witnessing everthing.

Namaste kshama,

I find this excellent. Highest station of God is said to be of the Seer. God alone, however, is also the Guru. It is said that Brihaspati, the Guru of Gods, alone assumed the role of Shukracharya as Guru of asuras -- to wean from ego. From individual perspective we look for signs etc., but Guru in form appears when the Shishya is ripe, else, Guru is never absent, as He is the Heart of Viveka -- the Seer within and without.

Om Namah Shivaya

[kshama]

Namaste kshama,

From individual perspective we look for signs etc., but Guru in form appears when the Shishya is ripe, else, Guru is never absent, as He is the Heart of Viveka -- the Seer within and without.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaskar Atanu Ji,

Thank you for your reply. The above quote, is very true. Thank you once again.

[satay]

Admin Note

Namaskar,

I have deleted a number of posts that I thought were irrelevant. Please note that the title of the thread is thoght provoking and an oxymoron since there can't be any 'fake' 'gurus'. Anyhow, I digress.

I believe the original poster's intent is good. You may not agree with my assessment and action.

Thank you and enjoy the discussions.

ps: last post moved to http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=37250#post37250 as it belongs to feedback on moderation.

[kd gupta]

Listen to the bhajan and seek guru...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4hg9C4AruQ

[kshama]

Listen to the bhajan and seek guru...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4hg9C4AruQ

Namaskar KD Gupataji,

I liked the bhajan, though I do not understand the language. Thank you for the link.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Kshama ji and all

I have followed this thread, while I think and agree your intentions are genuine, but it would be naïve to think that it would not arouse strong feelings, especially if some one Guru becomes subject off an unproven accusation.

I agree with Satay that fake Guru is an oxymoron, if one is a guru he can't be a fake, does that mean there are no charlatan, off course they are but they soon get found out unfortunately not before some one becomes a victim off it.
What should one do? Be street wise in this case be aware of Shastra and listen to many sadhus before making a decision, check what are the intention of an organisation are, it is sad to remark that many times dharma is put on back burner in place of betterment of the institute, where the success is measured by huge monument built at the expense off hard earn money, keep a blind eye to ill-gotten money or number off books one sells. Many off them so called gurus have gone to jail for various reason or run away with some nice young girl, insulting the high office of Sanyas, absconding with your money at the same time.

If any Guru advises a young man or woman against the wishes of ones parents then one must become cautious because even Sankracharya did not take Sanyas without the blessing of his mother.

Jai Shree Krishna

[kshama]

Namaste Ganeshprasad Ji,

Thank you for your views and for addressing questions in this thread. Your points about this topic are appreciated. I agree with your views to analyze and and then decide to be in the place or not.

About the gurus that the members named in their posts, well, people are speaking from what they see in the media, so it is inevitable, if they post some examples. This thread is not about exposing who are the fake gurus. The admin has warned us this thread should not be used to discuss that particular guru, as there are sentiments of his devotees to take care of. I am sure members will listen and only post things relevant to the thread.

If one reads very carefully my questions in this thread, there are still questions unanswered. E.g. why sufferings of people's who has been in wrongs places not taken into account...? Is it because people think that's their karma?

Thank you for your views once again.

[satay]

Admin Note

Please note one more time that this thread is not about a specific Hindu guru.

The topic is a general topic about people and organizations pretending to be saintly.

If you cannot discuss this topic sensibly and must bring in your emotions then I suggest that you do not post on this thread.

Thank you.

[saidevo]

namaste Satay.

Many thanks for removing the offending portions of the post #12 by ScottMalaysia that caused all the emotional outbreaks. The thread now is far more purposeful and no one can accuse you of being partial.

IMHO, a person who hurries to choose a guru is often deceived, which is part of the fruits of one's karmic balance; but then a discerning person moves on, leaving the guru who was not suitable. Even Paramahamsa Yogananda chose a guru first and then left him as unsuitable before finding his ultimate guru.

As the saying goes, it is not the disciple who chooses a guru but the guru who chooses his disciples when he/she is ready. So all that a disciple needs to do is to prepare himself/herself adequately and be ready to receive a guru.

[kshama]

Originally posted by Saidevo Ji,
it is not the disciple who chooses a guru but the guru who chooses his disciples when he/she is ready


Namaskar Saidevo Ji,

I have heard that statement before. I am a bit unclear. Say, the person is ready to receive a guru, in what circumstances the guru will come to the person's life?

In recent trends, many people whom I have known, went to certain organizations and get involved. There are some people too whom are not very spiritual but they too, when they approach the organization gets enrolled in. It occurs to me, it is the aspirant that goes and seeks the guru, not the other way around. Perhaps you can elaborate on this matter? Namaste.

[Eastern Mind]

kshama: Other answers will vary, but this is how I see it. Of course the aspirant has to seek a bit. But the individual guru-disciple relationship isn't there until the Guru puts his seal of approval on it, so to speak. He can do this directly himself, or he can appoint others who may be able to do it for him. Regardless, the guru has to accept the devotee as a student. A lot of people like to wander about claiming they are followers of this guru or that guru because its cool or has political gains or whatever, and they haven't even lifted one book of the guru's or even met the soul. I think a good point of reference is if the living Guru knows you by name. But then that's just me, having observed what is called guru-hopping in the west. A wandereer/seeker sticks with a guru until the guru gives a direction or a discipline that the seeker doesn't like and then, instead of bucking up, the seeker just moves on to another one, and this procedure more or less repeats itself every 5 years or so.

Aum Namasivaya

[kshama]

kshama: Other answers will vary, but this is how I see it. Of course the aspirant has to seek a bit. But the individual guru-disciple relationship isn't there until the Guru puts his seal of approval on it, so to speak. He can do this directly himself, or he can appoint others who may be able to do it for him. Regardless, the guru has to accept the devotee as a student. A lot of people like to wander about claiming they are followers of this guru or that guru because its cool or has political gains or whatever, and they haven't even lifted one book of the guru's or even met the soul. I think a good point of reference is if the living Guru knows you by name. But then that's just me, having observed what is called guru-hopping in the west. A wandereer/seeker sticks with a guru until the guru gives a direction or a discipline that the seeker doesn't like and then, instead of bucking up, the seeker just moves on to another one, and this procedure more or less repeats itself every 5 years or so.

Aum Namasivaya

Vanakkam Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your views. What you say does happen nowadays, including to the ones I know.

If literally, people take the statement the "guru will find you" there will be agitation in the minds of people-to seek or not to seek a guru? There are so many good organizations everywhere, but the saying, "the guru will find you" will make people apprehensive to even go out and meet a guru.

Saidevo Ji has a point too, when he said if one hurries, there are chances one can be at the wrong place.

Thank you for your views once again.

[devotee]

Namaste Kshama,

Now that this thread has again come back on rails, I think it is safe to post here again ! :)



If literally, people take the statement the "guru will find you" there will be agitation in the minds of people-to seek or not to seek a guru? There are so many good organizations everywhere, but the saying, "the guru will find you" will make people apprehensive to even go out and meet a guru.


This statement, "Guru will find you" is to be understood very carefully. It doesn't always mean that the Guru will be wandering about looking for you. We all have unique spiritual vibration attached to our "self" (having a definite identity) which keeps attaining a new level through our spiritual efforts. Now this vibration (our) after a attaining a certain level ( after croosing a certain threshold) tries itself to bring closer to higher spiritual vibrations (spiritual souls/Guru's) which resonate well with our vibrations. This creates chances to meet, the urge to look for a True Guru. And when the meeting takes place, the vibrations resonate so well that you have no doubts that He is the Guru you were seeking all along ! Guru, on the other hand, also identifies that This is the worthy disciple ! Guru's main task is to help seekers find the Truth ... ordained by God Himself. His incarnation is solely for that ! The Mahaavataar Babaji, one of the greatest Gurus, is stated to have refused liberation (at the request of some of his disciples) & is still roaming in human form in the Himalayas for last more than 5000 years & has been seen by some of the great saints in Kumbh fairs which he normally visits to help the seekers. So, let's have no doubt that our all prayers ... all austerities ... our all satsanga, japa of mantras ... meditation etc. are getting lost in vacuum with no one to keep an account for all that. No, God is watching & having an account of it all. After reaching a certain threshold when there is a need of a Guru to guide further, Guru will appear by the grace of God.

There may be circumstances when you have not spiritually achieved a certain threshold to find a Guru then even if you come close to such a Guru in his physical form, you won't be able to surrender yourself to him completely & even a True Guru found may be lost ! It is not important to find a piece of diamond ... it is very important that you know what a true diamond is like, so that you understand the value of the piece you are handling. A piece of diamond in the hand of an ignorant person is no more than a stone !

OM

[kshama]

Namaste Kshama,

Now that this thread has again come back on rails, I think it is safe to post here again ! :)



This statement, "Guru will find you" is to be understood very carefully. It doesn't always mean that the Guru will be wandering about looking for you. We all have unique spiritual vibration attached to our "self" (having a definite identity). Now this vibration (our) after a attaining a certain level ( after croosing a certain threshold) tries itself to bring closer to higher spiritual vibrations (spiritual souls/Guru's) which resonate well with our vibrations. This creates chances to meet, the urge to look for a True Guru. And when the meeting takes place, the vibrations resonate so well that you have no doubts that He is the Guru you were seeking all along ! Guru, on the other hand, also identifies that This is the worthy disciple ! Guru's main task is to help seekers find the Truth ... ordained by God Himself. His incarnation is solely for that ! The Mahaavataar Babaji, one of the greatest Gurus, is stated to have refused liberation (at the request of some of his disciples) & is still roaming in human form in the Himalayas for last more than 5000 years & has been seen by some of the great saints in Kumbh fairs which he normally visits to help the seekers. So, let's have no doubt that our all prayers ... all austerities ... our all satsanga, japa of mantras ... meditation etc. are getting lost in vacuum with no one to keep an account for all that. No, God is watching & having an account of it all. After reaching a certain threshold when there is a need of a Guru to guide further, Guru will appear by the grace of God.

There may be circumstances when you have not spiritually achieved a certain threshold to find a Guru then even if you come close to such a Guru in his physical form, you won't be able to surrender yourself to him completely & even a True Guru found may be lost ! It is not important to find a piece of diamond ... it is very important that you know what a true diamond is like, so that you understand the value of the piece you are handling. A piece of diamond in the hand of an ignorant person is no more than a stone !

OM

Namaste Devotee Ji,

Thank you for your views. Your words makes the confusions in aspirants like me vanish and evoparate away. A piece of diamond in the hand of ignorant person is no more than a stone.... that's so true...

[lighthouse]

Kshamaji
Best is to wait for a day till Guru calls you rather than chasing him and I can tell you that such day comes in our life if we are indeed in search of a genuine guru.
Ishwar cannot live without his bhaktas and same goes for Guru,he too cannot live without his followers,if he is genuine he must be pure and satvik with a real devotion towards God and always ready to teach us what we want to(must be fair in his views),there is no harm to ask questions to him,do not shy asking and if you feel that your queries have been answered fully then wait for the day till he calls you.
Sadly there are many fake so called gurus around with full of egos,you are right.

[kshama]

Kshamaji
Best is to wait for a day till Guru calls you rather than chasing him and I can tell you that such day comes in our life if we are indeed in search of a genuine guru.
Ishwar cannot live without his bhaktas and same goes for Guru,he too cannot live without his followers,if he is genuine he must be pure and satvik with a real devotion towards God and always ready to teach us what we want to(must be fair in his views),there is no harm to ask questions to him,do not shy asking and if you feel that your queries have been answered fully then wait for the day till he calls you.
Sadly there are many fake so called gurus around with full of egos,you are right.

Namaste Lighthouse Ji,

Thank you for your views.

[satay]

Admin Note

Some of the posts that were related to Christiantity have been moved to the appropriate forum. Please find them here:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5061

This thread is closed. Thanks.