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returntospirit
27 December 2009, 03:26 PM
I am currently stuck in stage 4 where I am the silent observer. I observe the body breathing but I am not breathing. The mind is thinking thoughts but I am not thinking. I am the observer and the body and the mind are the doer. I have that established but how do I move beyond that stage? (just in case you don't know what I am talking about here is a link http://www.psycanics.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=45 ) How do I move into Samadhi, or cosmic consciousness, and the higher levels of consciousness?

Also, what is my true Self? Is the awareness my true Self or am I using awareness? Is awareness inside or part of the mind? If I am not the mind the who am I?

Please share your wisdom and thoughts. Thank you.

purnapragya
06 August 2010, 09:16 AM
Same position for me.Pls help me if u pass through it.
Thanks

Onkara
06 August 2010, 10:35 AM
Same position for me.Pls help me if u pass through it.
Thanks

Hi Purnapragya
Extinguish the desire for more, for samadhi or what ever you think is the next stage. There is not something that one must do as a body-mind to achieve as to act for the success of your body-mind is to assume that your or my existence is independent of Brahman (Chit - consciousness).

There are no stages, unless you think about it or use memory or imagination to chisel out such stages for the sake of explanation or illustration. That which has been the same all you life will be here now and there in the future state also. The future state can only be imagined, so what the web site does is feeds the imagination. The stages indicate that there is something more than "john thomas and cash."

If there is still doubt then read with the aim to understand the scriptures. Mediate and enjoy your life "now". :)

Others may enjoy adding their views :)

NayaSurya
06 August 2010, 11:12 AM
You are not the mind, you are the knower of the mind. The mind moves because you move it...you are aware without it...it is aware because of you.

As I sit at this keyboard using a second mind to communicate this message. I have a first mind which I also utilize very much in the same way to communicate to you. It is the tool in the hand of the wise...we feed it knowledge. Because this is the food.

The mind is hungry always...

For me to achieve the state beyond this, I had to still the mind completely. One very good way of doing this is to only think of Beloved Isvara.

Focus on One Piece of Him so wholly that nothing else can enter your mind. When you do this, it creates silence.

There is more...but the fool waits for the question which would bring about the need for more.

yajvan
06 August 2010, 06:52 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I looked at this 7 states of consciousness site offered in post 1.
I am happy to see a site like this. I also agree and can see how
the 7 states are offered, yet my orientation of the 7 states are
different then this web site offers.

I agree of the 3 states of wake, dream and sleep. yet after those
3 we move to the 4th. From here I have been taught all the higher
levels are predicated on establishing turīya ( the 4th) in one's awareness. This is the basis of Self-Awareness.

My thoughts on this matter ( if there is any interest) is laid out
in this HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312)

More conversations from various members on this subject can also be found here:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2996
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822)



praṇām

saidevo
06 August 2010, 11:14 PM
namaste NayaSurya.



You are not the mind, you are the knower of the mind. The mind moves because you move it...you are aware without it...it is aware because of you.


Excellent observation! The mind is moved by prANa--vital force, whose gross manifestation is svAsha--breath, which is why prANa elevated to the state of the Self. Both manas and prANa are intertwined, as can easily be perceived when our breathing goes into a jumble as we talk, which is also the case when we have thoughts besieging our mind. To steady the rhythm of breath and prANa, one should focus on a single good thought to the exclusion of all others, which is easier said than done.



As I sit at this keyboard using a second mind to communicate this message. I have a first mind which I also utilize very much in the same way to communicate to you. It is the tool in the hand of the wise...we feed it knowledge. Because this is the food.


IMO, mind is like the multi-tasking operating system of a computer. The first mind is the primary thread which is always there as the dim awareness of the reflection of the Self through the bhuddhi--wisdom part of mind. The other threads are spawned by our free will/ego, and in the process we often forget about the primary thread.

saidevo
07 August 2010, 07:39 AM
namaste everyone.

Here is a gem of some practical advice from KAnchi ParamAchArya that has relevance to the scope of this thread:



From the book 'Hindu Dharma: The Universal Way of Life', pp.191-192
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8591806/Hindu-Dharma-Kanchi
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21581029/Hindu-Dharma-The-Universal-Way-of-Life

Consider human beings and other creatures. What is it that determines their health and feelings? The breath that passes through our nADis, blood vessels, during respiration produces vibrations and on them depends the state of our health. Those who keep their breathing under control through the practice of yoga are healthy to an amazing degree. They do not bleed even if their veins are cut. They are able to remain buried in the earth in samAdhi stopping their pulse and heartbeat. They are not poisoned even if they are bitten by a snake or stung by a scorpion. The reason is that they keep the vibrations of the nADis under control during breathing.

Breath is vital not only to the body but also to the mind. The mind which is the source of thought and the vital (prANik) energy that is the source of breath are the same. Healthy or unhealthy thoughts are to be attributed to different vibrations of the nADis. You may test this for youself. See for yourself how you breathe when you are at peace before the sanctum of a deity or in the presence of a great and wise person and how you breathe when your mind is quickened by desire or anger. The happiness you experience when you take part in something divine, like a bhajan or a temple festival, must be different from the pleasure that sensual gratification gives you: the vibrations of the nADis concerned will also be correspondingly different.

When you experience joy of an elevated kind the passage of breath will be through the right nostril, but when you are enjoying sensual pleasure it will be through the left. When you meditate, with increasing concentration, on the Reality Serene which is the source of all your urges and feelings, the breath will pass through both nostrils slowly, evenly and rhythmically. When you are absorbed in the object of your meditation breathing itself will cease, but there will still be life. The great awareness called jnana will then be in bloom as it were.

The inert body of a man and the awareness that is the vital essence of his life are both dependent on the course of his breathing. They grow or decay according to it. The course of a man's breath keeps his inner vibrations in order.

Ekanta
07 August 2010, 09:05 AM
I havent read all replies, but here is something to play with:

sapta-jńāna-bhūmikā-s or seven degrees of knowledge: (from varāha upaniṣad) might be of interest.
We can see that its a process of removing desires (rajas) or thinning the mind, by making it sattvic (pure/steady). In that steadiness, discrimination between the real and unreal can be done...

1. śubhecchā (good desire)
2. vicāraṇā (inquiry)
3. tanumānasī (thinned mind)
4. sattvāpatti (attainment of sattva)
5. asaṃsakti (non-attachment)
6. padārtha-bhāvanā (analysis of objects)
7. turīya (fourth or final stage)

4.1. Subhechcha is said to be the first Jnana-Bhumi (or stage of wisdom); Vicharana, the second; Tanumanasi, the third;

4.2. Sattvapatti, the fourth; then come Asamsakti as the fifth, Padartha-Bhavana as the sixth and Turya as the seventh.

4.3. The desire that arise in one through sheer Vairagya (after resolving) ‘Shall I be ignorant? I will be seen by the Shastras and the wise’ (or ‘I will study the books and be with the wise’) – is termed by the wise as Subhechcha [first stage].

4.4. The association with the wise and Shastras and the following of the right path preceding the practice of indifference is termed Vicharana [second stage].

4.5. That stage wherein the hankering after sensual objects is thinned through the first and second stages is said to be Tanumanasi [third stage].

4.6. That stage wherein having become indifferent to all sensual objects through the exercise in the (above) three stages, the purified Chitta rests on Atman which is of the nature of Sat is called Sattvapatti [fourth stage].

4.7. The light (or manifestation) of Sattva-Guna that is firmly rooted (in one) without any desire for the fruits of actions through the practice in the above four stages is termed Asamsakti [fifth stage].

4.8-9. That stage wherein through the practice in the (above) five stages one, having found delight in Atman, has no conception of the internals or externals (though before him) and engages in actions only when impelled to do so by others is termed Padartha-Bhavana, the sixth stage.

4.10. The stage wherein after exceedingly long practice in the (above) six stages one is (immovably) fixed in the contemplation of Atman alone without the difference (of the universe) is the seventh stage called Turya.

4.11. The (first) three stages beginning with Subhechcha are said to be attained with (or amidst) differences and non-differences. (Because) the universe one sees in the waking state he thinks to be really existent.

4.12. When the mind is firmly fixed on the non-dual One and the conception of duality is put down, then he sees this universe as a dream through his union with the fourth stage.

4.13. As the autumnal cloud being dispersed vanishes, so this universe perishes. O Nidagha, be convinced that such a person has only Sattva remaining.

4.14. Then having ascended the fifth stage called Sushuptipada (dreamless sleeping seat), he remains simply in the non-dual state, being freed from all the various differences.

4.15-16(a). Having always introvision though ever participating in external actions, those that are engaged in the practice of this (sixth stage) are seen like one sleeping when fatigued (viz., being freed from all affinities).
4.16(b). (Lastly) the seventh stage which is the ancient and which is called Gudhasupti is generally attained.

4.17. Then one remains in that secondless state without fear and with his consciousness almost annihilated where there is neither Sat nor Asat, neither self nor not-self.

Onkara
07 August 2010, 10:06 AM
Thank you Ekanta, for linking these stages to the Varaha Upanishad. These stages were not new to me, and now I know their source.

Would someone be able to define "Gudhasupti" my online searches have not come up with a satisfactory English definition.

purnapragya
07 August 2010, 10:32 AM
I havent read all replies, but here is something to play with:

sapta-jńāna-bhūmikā-s or seven degrees of knowledge: (from varāha upaniṣad) might be of interest.
We can see that its a process of removing desires (rajas) or thinning the mind, by making it sattvic (pure/steady). In that steadiness, discrimination between the real and unreal can be done...

1. śubhecchā (good desire)
2. vicāraṇā (inquiry)
3. tanumānasī (thinned mind)
4. sattvāpatti (attainment of sattva)
5. asaṃsakti (non-attachment)
6. padārtha-bhāvanā (analysis of objects)
7. turīya (fourth or final stage)

4.1. Subhechcha is said to be the first Jnana-Bhumi (or stage of wisdom); Vicharana, the second; Tanumanasi, the third;

4.2. Sattvapatti, the fourth; then come Asamsakti as the fifth, Padartha-Bhavana as the sixth and Turya as the seventh.

4.3. The desire that arise in one through sheer Vairagya (after resolving) ‘Shall I be ignorant? I will be seen by the Shastras and the wise’ (or ‘I will study the books and be with the wise’) – is termed by the wise as Subhechcha [first stage].

4.4. The association with the wise and Shastras and the following of the right path preceding the practice of indifference is termed Vicharana [second stage].

4.5. That stage wherein the hankering after sensual objects is thinned through the first and second stages is said to be Tanumanasi [third stage].

4.6. That stage wherein having become indifferent to all sensual objects through the exercise in the (above) three stages, the purified Chitta rests on Atman which is of the nature of Sat is called Sattvapatti [fourth stage].

4.7. The light (or manifestation) of Sattva-Guna that is firmly rooted (in one) without any desire for the fruits of actions through the practice in the above four stages is termed Asamsakti [fifth stage].

4.8-9. That stage wherein through the practice in the (above) five stages one, having found delight in Atman, has no conception of the internals or externals (though before him) and engages in actions only when impelled to do so by others is termed Padartha-Bhavana, the sixth stage.

4.10. The stage wherein after exceedingly long practice in the (above) six stages one is (immovably) fixed in the contemplation of Atman alone without the difference (of the universe) is the seventh stage called Turya.

4.11. The (first) three stages beginning with Subhechcha are said to be attained with (or amidst) differences and non-differences. (Because) the universe one sees in the waking state he thinks to be really existent.

4.12. When the mind is firmly fixed on the non-dual One and the conception of duality is put down, then he sees this universe as a dream through his union with the fourth stage.

4.13. As the autumnal cloud being dispersed vanishes, so this universe perishes. O Nidagha, be convinced that such a person has only Sattva remaining.

4.14. Then having ascended the fifth stage called Sushuptipada (dreamless sleeping seat), he remains simply in the non-dual state, being freed from all the various differences.

4.15-16(a). Having always introvision though ever participating in external actions, those that are engaged in the practice of this (sixth stage) are seen like one sleeping when fatigued (viz., being freed from all affinities).
4.16(b). (Lastly) the seventh stage which is the ancient and which is called Gudhasupti is generally attained.

4.17. Then one remains in that secondless state without fear and with his consciousness almost annihilated where there is neither Sat nor Asat, neither self nor not-self.
Now u define sevenstage as followes
"1. śubhecchā (good desire)
2. vicāraṇā (inquiry)
3. tanumānasī (thinned mind)
4. sattvāpatti (attainment of sattva)
5. asaṃsakti (non-attachment)
6. padārtha-bhāvanā (analysis of objects)
7. turīya (fourth or final stage) "
U said about "subheccha"(good desire).Then there exist question with the attribute of desire how u become enlightened?
let take an example we assume all attribute corresponding to real no.And denote sattik attribute as Integer,rajo guna as rational no. and tamoshik attribute as irrational no.
then apply set theory as every set of attribute denote each member of every human group or a social group of sect.Then define each human as followes,like A={1,2,1/2,5/6},B={0,9,8/7,5}etc. and S is universal set of Attribute or In other word trigunatit position or Sagun brahma.So good desire may give u the blessing of sagun brahma.but how u find nirgun brahma?not clear to me.
2. vicāraṇā (inquiry)
Good logic but how u enquiry the ultimate which exist in every thing?If u not find the self then wat u want to find?
3. tanumānasī (thinned mind)
U said "sensual objects is thinned".When u want to find the subject wat is the importance of object.That mean u want to search the element which in mathematically called "fi" or emptiness.Is it possible to realise emptiness through sensual object?
From mathematics "fi" is only element which exist in every set,that mean exist in every being.So u need investigation of ur self or atma.
4. sattvāpatti (attainment of sattva)
"the purified Chitta rests on Atman which is of the nature of Sat is called Sattvapatti "
How Chitta rest on atman when self is the only truth of desireless mind so Self consiousness person recite,
just as a transparent crystal takes on the lines of its
background, but is in no way changed thereby, and just as the
unchanging moon on being reflected on undulating surfaces
appears agitated, so is it with you, the all-pervading God.
5. asaṃsakti (non-attachment)
One hand u said about desire other hand u said about non-attachment.let I assumed u said about non attachment,good then u might desireless,Do u agree?
6. padārtha-bhāvanā (analysis of objects)
That mean u assumed brahma and self two different object.How it possible?
two distinct set when meet only "fi" exist,that mean self or nirguna brahma.And from upanishad we know "Sarvam khallam brahma",so "fi" is brahma,but nirgun.So u not clear wat u want to analysis?
7. turīya (fourth or final stage)
U said "Then one remains in that secondless state without fear and with his consciousness almost annihilated where there is neither Sat nor Asat, neither self nor not-self."
but when the mirror of mind remove its obvious that only true object exist,so in this position Atma gyani said
"Ahom brahashmi" there is no ultimate without me.In devi sutra of Atharva veda clearly state that position.In this total system where u find fear I dont understand?pls give me light or discuss deeply.
thanks

Ekanta
07 August 2010, 07:39 PM
Would someone be able to define "Gudhasupti" my online searches have not come up with a satisfactory English definition.

गाढसुप्ताख्या / gāḍhasuptākhyā is the word used... Yajvan?

(In the mean time my guess is that it means something like: “absorbed in-inactivity” or "firmly-inactive" or "firmly-resting" based on a the division: gāḍha-supta-khyā)

yajvan
07 August 2010, 09:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté ekanta (et.al)



gāḍhasuptākhyā is the word used... Yajvan?


IMHO the answer to your question lies in the dis-assembly of gāḍha + suptā + khyā

gāḍha - dived into , bathed in ; ' deeply entered ' , pressed together , tightly drawn , closely fastened , close , fast
suptā - having beautiful braids of hair ; if we look at this way from its root (√) svap ; for su-pta then we have fallen asleep , slept , sleeping , asleep
khyā - to make well known , praise ; yet too we find this word in khyāyate meaning to be named , be known you offer:


4.15-16(a). Having always introvision though ever participating in external actions, those that are engaged in the practice of this (sixth stage) are seen like
one sleeping when fatigued (viz., being freed from all affinities).
4.16(b). (Lastly) the seventh stage which is the ancient and which is called Gudhasupti is generally attained.

I think you can make the connection to gāḍhasuptākhyā when you consider 4.15 and 4.16 . I will offer my opinion later.

praṇām

atanu
08 August 2010, 01:56 AM
Namaste Ekanta, Snip, and Yajvan

gāḍha - is also similar to ghana -- that is dense or deep (ghana is used to describe suSupti-- deep sleep)

suptā - is restful-sleep and also a calm confidence (supta is there in suSupti also)


khyā - is to be known as

I think the verse 4.17 describes it further. To me it conveys ever undisturbed deep restfulness --- which is (of course) due to attainment of the singular one without a second state.

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
08 August 2010, 02:09 AM
Namaste everybody
I know , there is only one stage and that is Devotion .


Upanishads , shashtras , puranas and many more scriptures explain ..what is contained in Vedas…of course many views differ . Similarly as we think of our birth living and struggling and lastly come to death . Is it not thinking like, that there is a NEEDLE in ocean ? Actually this thinking is Enlightenment and this thought is contained in Vedas . Now the question is , where is that needle and how to find it ?
Veda says…uddvayam tamasaspari…..jyotiruttamam 24/38 yaj
Our goal should be to find that highest high Parmatma , here some people talk of achieving Moksha , but mind it , if moksha is there then Aham brahmasmi stands null .
Gita says the way to find the parmatma….
Bhaktyaa maamabhijaanaati yaavaanyashchaasmi tattwatah;
Tato maam tattwato jnaatwaa vishate tadanantaram.

By devotion he knows Me in truth, what and who I am; and knowing Me in truth, he
forthwith enters into the Supreme…55/18

atanu
08 August 2010, 03:35 AM
Namaste everybody
I know , there is only one stage and that is Devotion .

Namaste Guptaji

Welcome back. But do you mean to say you can hold on to devotion in dream and deep sleep also? If it is true then you are turiyatita.




Gita says the way to find the parmatma….
Bhaktyaa maamabhijaanaati yaavaanyashchaasmi tattwatah;
Tato maam tattwato jnaatwaa vishate tadanantaram.

By devotion he knows Me in truth, what and who I am; and knowing Me in truth, he forthwith enters into the Supreme…55/18

There is no doubt that Shri Krishna teaches the highest truth. However, the verse that you quote comes after 18.53 and 18.54 cited below:

Ahankaaram balam darpam kaamam krodham parigraham;
Vimuchya nirmamah shaanto brahmabhooyaaya kalpate.

53. Having abandoned egoism, strength, arrogance, anger, desire, and covetousness, free from the notion of “mine” and peaceful,—he is fit for attaining Brahman.

Brahmabhootah prasannaatmaa na shochati na kaangkshati;
Samah sarveshu bhooteshu madbhaktim labhate paraam.

54. Having attained body of Brahman, serene in the Self, he neither grieves nor desires; the same to all beings, he attains supreme devotion unto Me.

Bhaktyaa maamabhijaanaati yaavaanyashchaasmi tattwatah;
Tato maam tattwato jnaatwaa vishate tadanantaram.

55. By devotion he knows Me in truth, what and who I am; and knowing Me in truth, he forthwith enters into the Supreme.

--------------------------

This is not to contradict you. But I wish to add that the supreme bhakti (supreme-union) is available automatically, contingent upon realisation of the attainments mentioned in 18.53 and 18.54; and that is why many teachers teach that ultimately bhakti and jnana are not bhibhakta -- not two separate entitities.

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
08 August 2010, 05:37 AM
Namaste Atanuji
Hath kangan ko arsi kya , you see Devoteeji has attained Turiyatita these days......:) [ as usual from me ].

atanu
08 August 2010, 06:02 AM
Namaste Atanuji
Hath kangan ko arsi kya , you see Devoteeji has attained Turiyatita these days......:) [ as usual from me ].

:) kangan hath me hota to kya mushkil tha?

yajvan
08 August 2010, 06:24 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu (et.al)



Namaste Ekanta, Snip, and Yajvan

I think the verse 4.17 describes it further. To me it conveys ever undisturbed deep restfulness --- which is (of course) due to attainment of the singular one without a second state.

Yes, I see how your definition applies. I see the ~same~.

deeply bathed (gāḍha) in rest (suptā) it is well known (khyā).
That is, it is that experience , part of one's own being.


Yet another view could be the following: That which is found in one's deepest (gāḍha) rest ((√) svap ; for su-pta) is to be known (khyā).

And what is that ? Brahman.

praṇām

Onkara
09 August 2010, 04:23 AM
Thank you, Ekanta, Atanu and Yajvan for the elaboration. :)

atanu
09 August 2010, 06:55 AM
hariḥ oṁ
namasté atanu (et.al)
Yet another view could be the following: That which is found in one's deepest (gāḍha) rest ((√) svap ; for su-pta) is to be known (khyā).
And what is that ? Brahman.
praṇām


Namaste yajvanji

:) Yes. This is gAdha - profound. Thank you

Om Namah Shivaya