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SethDrebitko
06 January 2010, 01:59 AM
Hello folks it is truly great to have found such a diverse place on the web. My name (if you may not have guessed) is Seth Drebitko and I am trying to find my place in the grand scheme of things.

I know enough (or at least think I do) about Hinduism to recognize that I would consider myself to be a Hindu. My beliefs are as follows:

- “God” exists within all that was/is/and will be and so we must strive to bring perfection to ourselves and environment so as to draw closer to balance.
- No man/women has the right to impose his path upon that of another as an ultimate truth.
- Man/women cannot understand the truth of the vastness of all that is and so while religious texts may represent excellent guides they are not all inclusive.
- Devas represent supreme agents of the unconscious will of the God Head. Essentially they are angels through traditional views of them.
My question is does this definition of my belief appear in any specific denominations of Hindusim, and where would you suggest my studies begin. Another thing to consider is that if I want to take the path to becoming recognized as a guru what steps should I take. I have a deep passion for my writing and would like to teach and share my beliefs through it.

I truly appreciate any welcomes, and help!
Sincerely, Seth Drebitko
Only and empty cup can be filled~

Onkara
06 January 2010, 01:26 PM
Hi Seth
Welcome to the forum and thanks for the introduction.



- Man/women cannot understand the truth of the vastness of all that is and so while religious texts may represent excellent guides they are not all inclusive.

My question is does this definition of my belief appear in any specific denominations of Hindusim, and where would you suggest my studies begin. Another thing to consider is that if I want to take the path to becoming recognized as a guru what steps should I take. I have a deep passion for my writing and would like to teach and share my beliefs through it.
~

Personally I am not sure if the Vedas are taken to be incomplete from a spiritual perspective, if that is the right way to take the meaning of "not all inclusive" above. I would be interested to know if any sect consideres the Vedas or any other religious text to be 100% inclusive from a spiritual perspective? Personally I am yet to doubt the Bhagavad Gita or the Upanishads which I have read, although some parts strike me as quite different to my educational background and today's technology rich environement.

You ask also where your studies should begin. I would suggest the Bhagavad Gita with commentaries of one of the major philosphers e.g. Sri Shankara and see if that raises any questions. If you find you prefer something lighter then perhaps a general overviews of Sanatana Dharma, and see where your interest takes you.

Eastern Mind
06 January 2010, 01:43 PM
Seth: Welcome to the forums. I assume your beliefs are things that you have discovered for yourself before reading much at all. Yes, what you say is pretty much aligned with most of the religions within Hinduism.

Your last statement is not in line with any tradition I know of. Adherents do not seek to become Gurus. Gurus become Gurus when the first student appears, and asks for the knowledge they see in front of them. And this only after many lifetimes of sincere sadhana. In this day and age however, the term 'guru' can just mean teacher so in that sense everyone here is a guru of some sort. You cannot set yourself up as a true Guru, although you could set yourself up as a False guru.

Keep asking questions. You will surely get wide and varied responses.

Aum Namasivaya

heartfully
06 January 2010, 04:16 PM
Welcome, Seth.

Love to you,
Heartfully

devotee
06 January 2010, 08:31 PM
Namaste Seth,

Welcome to the forum ! :)

Let me offer some remarks on your faith & Hinduism :



- “God” exists within all that was/is/and will be and so we must strive to bring perfection to ourselves and environment so as to draw closer to balance.
- No man/women has the right to impose his path upon that of another as an ultimate truth.

Agrees with Hinduism.


- Man/women cannot understand the truth of the vastness of all that is

Agrees with Hinduism.


and so while religious texts may represent excellent guides they are not all inclusive.

Hindus consider Vedas as Supreme. There is nothing beyond Vedas.


- Devas represent supreme agents of the unconscious will of the God Head. Essentially they are angels through traditional views of them.

Devas are celestial beings in Devaloka. This is a realm which consists of beings who attained very high spiritual levels. They have powers over the Nature. They can grant boons etc. This realm is not eternal ... it has its origin & end.


where would you suggest my studies begin.

That would depend what you know so far. Snip has suggested correctly. You may consider reading Bhaagwad Gita first (Lord Krishna's talk to Arjuna). However, this book is not so easy to understand as it would seem from translations. You must go slow & unless you understand things well in one chapter, don't move to other chapter. There are many here on this forum who can help you in this respect.


Another thing to consider is that if I want to take the path to becoming recognized as a guru what steps should I take.

There is a great difference between Christianity/Islam & Hinduism. In Christianity, you take a degree in Bible, do some research work & you can be a preacher. This is no so in Hinduism. You can be a Guru only if you are ordained by God Himself ... if you can find a true Guru, He will let you know. Guru must be a Self-realised (or God-realised) person.


I have a deep passion for my writing and would like to teach and share my beliefs through it.

I shall advise that first find path for yourself ... attain Self-realisation ... Though it never stops you to share your views with anyone. But, don't call yourself a Guru unless you attain Self-realisation. You can be a teacher ... but Guru has altogether a different meaning in Hinduism/Buddhism/Sikhism/Jainism.


OM

saidevo
06 January 2010, 11:49 PM
namaste SethDrebitko.

Welcome to HDF!

The 'Purpose' part of your profile reads: "I am joining this forum to broaden my horizons and determine if I have found a spiritual home in Hinduism."

This means that you haven't found your spiritual home yet and want to see if that could be in Hinduism. And your first ambition on finding a 'spiritual home' seems to become a guru! Amazing what crazy ideas today's youth are driven to in the name of seeking knowledge!

• It's a matter of shock that because some crazy westerners have undermined and corrupted the sacred term 'guru', and every TD&H uses it in every which way he/she can to mean anything and nothing, today we need to talk about 'false/fake gurus' and 'true gurus'!

Is there a false light and a true light? Is there a false darkness and a true darkness? It's the same with the sacred term 'guru', which means far more than just a teacher.

• So, SD, try not to use the term 'guru' flippantly. As Devotee and EM have rightly pointed out, you don't become a guru by obtaining a degree in Hinduism and then start lecturing out or writing about what you have learned. It's one thing to say that you need to study Hinduism and become a writer about it and totally another to say that you want to become a guru and teach Hinduism; hope this is clear to you.

• In case you don't know already, a guru in Hinduism is a Self-Realized soul. The Realization is of the Self, by the self, under the guidance of texts relating to the Vedas, by persistent sAdhana--spiritual practice, vichAraNa--inquiry, and satsangham--being in the company of gurus.

That said, here is my impression about your 'beliefs':

• "God exists within all that was/is/and will be and so we must strive to bring perfection to ourselves and environment so as to draw closer to balance."

If the term 'all' includes the animal, vegetable and mineral kingdoms, then this would be something like Advaita.

• "Man/women cannot understand the truth of the vastness of all that is and so while religious texts may represent excellent guides they are not all inclusive."

This sounds more like agnosticism. And what religious texts you're talking of here in the context of Hinduism?

• "Devas represent supreme agents of the unconscious will of the God Head. Essentially they are angels through traditional views of them."

This idea is confusion confounded, because:

•• Devas ARE NOT agents of God, whereas the Angels ARE the messengers of God.

•• The God of the Devas and the 'God' of the Angels are different concepts.

•• Devas are the manifestation of Brahman in a specific form for a specific purpose. They administer in a hierarchical set up, the Universe that Brahman has emanated itself. Devas are personal gods.

•• Devas have three forms: in the physical, they represent the Nature's forces; in the subtler level they are beings in the Devaloka; in the spiritual level they reside in every living being as spiritual forces and faculties.

•• There is nothing like 'unconscious will of the God Head'. Brahman in Hinduism is all consciousness and nothing but consciousness.

Since you have NOT explicitly stated that you believe in the authority of Vedas, you can't be a Hindu and your beliefs as given above are not those of Hinduism, except by way of some echos.

If you acknowledge the authority of the Vedas, then they would be the natural place to start for knowing about Hinduism. However, since the Vedas/Upanishads are hard to study and understand, you might start with the Bhagavad Gita that contains the essence of them all.

Eastern Mind
07 January 2010, 09:41 AM
Amazing what crazy ideas today's youth are driven to in the name of seeking knowledge!


Vannakkam Saidevoji: Maybe we're just getting old and impatient, I'm not sure. I would say the young fellow is just naive. This is more reasonable than the 'crazy'. A FOB to Hinduism mentally. FOB, by the way, means Fresh Off Boat, and is used to describe any immigrant from India, Eastern Europe, China, Africa, etc. that looks and acts in very strange (to Canadians) ways. The reactions from Canadians vary from scorning, laughing at, all the way to extremely helpful. I remember at eighteen years old being frustrated at British soldiers who came and stood right in front of the bar at the inn I worked. Here in Canada, you sit down, and a waiter/waitress comes to your table to take an order. So my boss and I took the pains to explain this variance to them.

So I see these newcomers as FOBs to Hinduism, and the Indian culture. Surely you've come across a westerner or two in India who looks totally lost.

I was a FOB once myself. I hadn't heard of the Vedas. I thought a veshti was some sort of dress. I had no idea what the red dot meant. All this and a whole lot more.
But I did know one thing. There was something about this thing called Hinduism that stirred my inner being so intensely that I had to continue walking along that ignorant path. Each new cultural idea, religious saying, experience kept tugging me along. I was the donkey on the rope. I now know Ganesha was on the other end. Fortunately for me, the Tamil and other Hindus I met were loving, kind, and extremely patient. They took me on as a parent would take on a child, patiently correcting small nuances like pronunciation. Now I more or less fit in. Now I'm a DOB. (Decades Off Boat)

I think you and Devotee for the most part gave the young man excellent advice. (Thanks for pointing out the Himalayan Academy stuff, BTW, as its written in pretty plain American English ... I don't usually point it out for the same reason you're not pointing out Sai all the time, I think)

So I'm sort of asking you, on the young man's behalf, to try to avoid terms like 'crazy'. I know its hard and its one of my focuses in sadhana right now as well. I'm trying very hard not to turn into a Grumpy Old Man. But I do find that I lack the energy to have sustained patience as I age. You saw some of that in me yesterday on other threads.

Aum Namasivaya

saidevo
07 January 2010, 11:56 AM
namaste SethDrebitko.

I am genuinely sorry and apologize if you are offended by the term 'crazy' I used in my post of advice to you; I hope you understand that I used it NOT as a reference to you, but only to your idea becoming a guru straightaway, even before learning to be a good disciple.

Please feel free to ask any questions you have about Hinduism and proceed with your studies; you can be assured of all our help here in HDF where the intention is genuine.

namaste EM.

I totally agree with you and shall take your advice: this time the Ishvara's lIlA was on me to go overboard! I am, as many members here know, unassuming and humble in my attitude as regards whatever little knowledge I have; but then as we have seen on a few occasions here, some young people even in their initial posts try to assume a leadership/scholarship attitude: just the other day it was a case of a person calling himself enlightened and offering to guide us--Yajvan snubbed the person in his own imitable way. Then there is this young man who signs up Christian, Islamic, Sikh, Hindu and every other religious forum on the Net, (and even dating and games forums), and talks to us about Benny Hinn and declares that he is doing a comparative study of the Bible with the RAmAyaNa and MahAbhArata (the man couldn't even spell the names correctly). And then there are some of our own members who argue endlessly that Shiva is a devotee of ViShNu, ViShNu is a form of KRShNa and so on. All such wilful and wanton digressions only go to reduce the knowledge content of HDF, and people like Yajvan and others who don't want to be involved in these wrangles, lose interest to share their knowledge and either simply post nothing or take up to analyzing English words, because there are hardly a few who can understand their high-content posts or suitably reply or ask a question.

HDF is known for its cutting-edge discussions on the heavyweight philosophical concepts of Hinduism that interested and involved many members. We need to network the capillary currents of digressions into the leading Hindu philosophical streams and move forward rather than get caught in swirls and eddies.

SethDrebitko
07 January 2010, 12:34 PM
I meant no offense about the guru comment and apologize. As far as what I have seen of Hinduism in western society anyone sharing or giving their views on Hinduism and spirituality typically is called (or calls themselves) guru's.

As it is important for my personal beliefs to be represented in the things I do I was not certain if I needed to take any further steps to assure I approach that sharing properly.

As far as religious texts goes I personally feel that humans are imperfect by nature so while a religious text may be the greatest guide along the path it could not be considered the ultimate be all end all.

I am thinking I'll track down some Bhagavad Gita translations to start things off. I really appreciate your communities patients as I fumble along my path.

Sincerely, Seth Drebitko

Eastern Mind
07 January 2010, 12:52 PM
HDF is known for its cutting-edge discussions on the heavyweight philosophical concepts of Hinduism that interested and involved many members.

That and a lot more too. I've found it really good for the newcomers. As we have discussed before, a lot of ordinary Hindus have no idea of that heavyweight philosophical stuff. Too busy earning a living or whatever.

Re going overboard, what comes around goes around. I got a really good sleep last night so woke up in a more polite mood. Ever since I quit my dull boring job and started writing again, I find I come on here a bit too much. People must be getting sick of me. When my post count is ahead of yours and Yajvans I'm taking a year off.

Jivattatva
08 January 2010, 02:35 AM
Pranam Seth

Welcome!

Hope your visits here will be enlightening and enjoyable at the same time.

Feel free to ask questions, there are many here who are not only knowledgeable on the siddhanta (philosophical conclusions) but also real practitioners as well.

Onkara
08 January 2010, 04:24 AM
As it is important for my personal beliefs to be represented in the things I do I was not certain if I needed to take any further steps to assure I approach that sharing properly.

Hi Seth
I think that is a wise and considerate approach. When Nisargadatta Maharaj was asked how to help others questions from a philsophical point of view his reply was a long the lines of "always answer on the level of consciousness and not of the body". Paradoxically until that answer is understood fully then one may still risk providing an unsuitable answer dirven in the desire to help another. Understanding Nisargadatta Maharaj´s commentary in "I Am That" is a good challange in itself :)



As far as religious texts goes I personally feel that humans are imperfect by nature so while a religious text may be the greatest guide along the path it could not be considered the ultimate be all end all. .

The difference is that the Vedas may be copied and printed by humans, but the content are said to have not been composed by humans who, as you say can be imperfect. That apparent imperfection in humans and causes for it are explained in the Bhagavad Gita and examined in works on Vedanta.



I am thinking I'll track down some Bhagavad Gita translations to start things off. I really appreciate your communities patients as I fumble along my path.
There are lots on line and some good ones you can buy from India, for example. The commentary and translation can be important, so please ask if you find the choice a little complicated, there are others wiser and more experienced than me who can also advise.

Eastern Mind
08 January 2010, 04:27 PM
I meant no offense about the guru comment and apologize. As far as what I have seen of Hinduism in western society anyone sharing or giving their views on Hinduism and spirituality typically is called (or calls themselves) guru's.



If you are at all sincere about this, you could go to Himalayan Academy's website and look at the posting "How to Become a Monk" . I also believe that the Ramakrishna Mission may still accept people into sannyas after a long time in training. The first step would be bramacarya, complete sexual abstinence. There are indeed a few souls still on the planet who are ready for this arduous path that would end in the Self.

Aum Namasivaya

SethDrebitko
09 January 2010, 05:01 AM
I don't really (at least at this time) have any interest in devoting myself as a religious teacher just that I find it important to emulate my beliefs through my writing so because those beliefs would be shared widely I would not want to mis represent them. The way things seem though I don't have anything to worry about.

One question I have is when I do begin reading the religious text should I take things as in Christianity where all the rules and practices can be found within; or should I expect additional learning?

Again thank you very much for your patients.

Sincerely, Seth Drebitko

sanjaya
09 January 2010, 03:18 PM
One question I have is when I do begin reading the religious text should I take things as in Christianity where all the rules and practices can be found within; or should I expect additional learning?

To my knowledge there's no doctrine analagous to the Christian sola scriptura, where scripture is viewed as containing all that is needed for salvation. The Vedas, for example, are taken as the highest Scriptural authority for us, and they are regarded as coming directly from God. But they obviously don't contain the sum total of all human knowledge. In fact, some of the Scriptures I've read suggests that salvation (i.e. moksha) comes from bhakti and surrender to God, and is not dependent on how many books you've read. Also, a lot of Hindu practices have evolved over the centuries, and won't be found explicitly in the Vedas or any other Scripture. Of course I'm not terribly knowledgable on Hindu theology, so if any of the more knowledgable members think I've spoken incorrectly, please feel free to correct me.

Another thing is that Hindu Scripture is pretty vast. I've just started reading them, and I'm starting to wonder if I'll actually get done in this lifetime. It would be pretty unreasonable for God to set up a system where you need to spend your whole life in a library to be liberated from this world. That said, I've found that the Bhagavad Gita is perhaps the best summary of Hindu teaching.

Eastern Mind
09 January 2010, 03:52 PM
One question I have is when I do begin reading the religious text should I take things as in Christianity where all the rules and practices can be found within; or should I expect additional learning?



As someone has already said, you would do yourself great justice to just drop the Christianity stuff. It really has no place in Hindu discussions. Many Hindus don't use or even need scripture at all. Lots of Hindus are still illiterate in fact. They're still wonderful Hindus. Parents teach them the code of ethics, and they go to temples, meditate, help others, and all the other stuff ... except scripture. Living a life full of dharmic experiences will get you further than any scripture anywhere. My Guru's Guru, who lived in Sri Lanka, once saw a westerner browsing a bookstore. He grabbbed a couple of books and literally threw them at the guy yelling, "It's not in books you Fool!!"

I've never read the Gita, or the Bible. I don't intend to. I look out at the world around me and watch. A person shows more than any book. A person has a Soul in it. The person will show you what to do or not to do. All the world's scriptures are within your heart and your spine. Look there for answers. They will be the same answers that all the mystics, seers, Maharishis, and Satgurus have seen before you. Best of luck.

Aum Namasivaya

Jivattatva
09 January 2010, 06:20 PM
As someone has already said, you would do yourself great justice to just drop the Christianity stuff. It really has no place in Hindu discussions. Many Hindus don't use or even need scripture at all. Lots of Hindus are still illiterate in fact. They're still wonderful Hindus. Parents teach them the code of ethics, and they go to temples, meditate, help others, and all the other stuff ... except scripture. Living a life full of dharmic experiences will get you further than any scripture anywhere. My Guru's Guru, who lived in Sri Lanka, once saw a westerner browsing a bookstore. He grabbbed a couple of books and literally threw them at the guy yelling, "It's not in books you Fool!!"

I've never read the Gita, or the Bible. I don't intend to. I look out at the world around me and watch. A person shows more than any book. A person has a Soul in it. The person will show you what to do or not to do. All the world's scriptures are within your heart and your spine. Look there for answers. They will be the same answers that all the mystics, seers, Maharishis, and Satgurus have seen before you. Best of luck.

Aum Namasivaya


Namaste Eastern Mind

I meant no offense but I do not agree with you on this one. How do you safeguard self-delusion eg. that what you are hearing is really the voice of God.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism has given, in my opinion, a practical and logical way of keeping it real for us.

One can arrive at the truth by seeking from shastra (scriptures), sadhu (holy men or guru) and sanga ( from people of like mind). Of course the SELF will synthesize things out for you but at least you have a safeguard from self-delusion. If truth is ONE then the 3 should reconcile.

Kind regards

Eastern Mind
09 January 2010, 07:30 PM
Namaste Eastern Mind

I meant no offense but I do not agree with you on this one. How do you safeguard self-delusion eg. that what you are hearing is really the voice of God.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism has given, in my opinion, a practical and logical way of keeping it real for us.

One can arrive at the truth by seeking from shastra (scriptures), sadhu (holy men or guru) and sanga ( from people of like mind). Of course the SELF will synthesize things out for you but at least you have a safeguard from self-delusion. If truth is ONE then the 3 should reconcile.

Kind regards

No offense taken at all. It is fine to disagree, in fact perhaps it is important to disagree. At least this is my opinion. But in that disagreement we need to be polite about it. For example your phrase,' in my opinion' does just that. If we all agreed, the vastness of Hinduism would be reduced dramatically. In my opinion thee are three pillars in Hinduism's religions: Gurus, scripture, and Temples. The religion would still stand up on any one of those pillars if the other disagreed.

I think Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a wonderful dharmic path. Its just not mine. Mine is Saiva Siddhanta, the monistic version, similar to any of the six schools of Saivism. Everything is safeguarded against self-delusion within that. My story was meant to state the overemphasis some people put on scripture. Scripture cannot give you the Self, because the Self is not in a book. Apparently it is beyond a whole lot, although I personally wouldn't know. Deep inner sadhana leads one to the Self. This is the mystical way of the Nathas.

At some point there has to be a reconciliation of what one thinks with scripture. To follow scripture blindly without thinking for yourself as well is like taking all scriptures literally, and not metaphorically at times, or recognising how today's world is different from an older Vedic world. One does not have to look further than the craziness of some Abrahamic Religions literal takes on their scriptures to see that. (So we should kill the redheads, because some scripture says so? So anyone who crosses an ocean loses their brahmin status because some scripture says so?)

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
09 January 2010, 08:41 PM
Namaste EM & Jivatattva,

EM's beautiful post prompted me to share something here. If I am able to truly surrender to God/True Guru, is there a need to read scriptures ? No ! The scriptures are simply pointers which point towards the Truth ... they are not the Truth itself ... you have to find the Truth for yourself.

I remember a story narrated by Ramkrishna Paramhans :

There was a disciple named Raghu (say) & there was a Guruji in a certain village. Raghu used to come to him everyday to learn Aadhyaatma Vidya from another village crossing a river which ran in-between the villages. Guru ji used to tell him the story of Lord Krishna & how total surrender to Him would ferry him across this sea of this manifested world full of pains.

One day, there was heavy rains & the river was in spate. Due to bad weather there was no boatman available at the river side too. Guruji didn't expect Raghu to come crossing the river in such a difficult weather. However, he was very surprised to see that Raghu came in time as usual ! That prompted Guruji to ask, "Son, why did you come today in this bad weather ? and how did you come at all ? Did you get any boatman in this bad weather ?" Raghu replied with folded hands, "Guruji, there was no boatman toady. But you remember, you told me that if I had complete faith in Lord Krishna he would help me cross the ocean of this sansaara ? So, compared to that what is this river ? I prayed to him & crossed the river !". "Crossed the river ? ... but how ?" --- Guru ji asked. Raghu said, "I walked over it, Guru ji. Lord Krishna helped me.". Guruji was annoyed by now, "Raghu, where did you learn to tell lies ... that too in front of your Guru ?". Raghu fell on Guruji's feet, "Guruji, I don't lie. I tell you the Truth. Believe me.".

Raghu was a simpleton & Guruji too believed that Raghu won't lie ... at least not in front of him. So, he said to Raghu, "OK. I will believe you if you show me how you did it". So, Raghu & Guruji went to the dangerously overflowing river side. Raghu took the blessings of his Guru, closed his eyes, prayed to Krishna & went into the river. Lo ! He was walking over the water as it was a plain road ! Guru ji was now proud that he had produced such a disciple and this scene prompted Guru ji to test his own Bhakti. He too prayed to God with the most sacred mantras he knew & tried to walk over river but he sank & was swept away by the strong current !

Theory is OK. It is not much important how much we know, it is more important how sincerely we practise !

OM

SethDrebitko
11 January 2010, 04:16 AM
Not to speak out of place to those who no more but I don't think that Christianity or any other religion should be out of place depending on the context. I was once a Christian it was a long part of my walk and so it is easy for me to compare things to it to personally understand differences.

I am not trying to fit Christianity into Hinduism but before I can see faith through your eyes I must first use my own.

That said one thing I am curious about is the necessity to adhere to a particular denomination? I don't particularly feel any draw to those I have read about simply the Hindu faith in general. Would it be within my rights to simply be Hindu and not any particular order of it?

SethDrebitko
18 January 2010, 03:23 AM
So sadly I have been swamped and not had the chance to go any further just yet. I have organized my schedule to give myself more time for study and found the following translation (http://www.gita4free.com/english_completegita.html).

My questions are as follows:

- Is this the full thing? It seems very short, which is not a bad thing.

- At a glance does it appear to be an accurate translation?

The internet tends to have an excess of rough with few and far between diamonds ^_^.

Thanks all for the support and help so far!
Sincerely, Seth Drebitko