False Gurus and Organizations in Christianity

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

Giving 'false-witness' is a grave sin.

[Eastern Mind]

Giving 'false-witness' is a grave sin.

Vanakkam Mohini: Welcome to the forum. I do not understand 'false witness'. I think I've heard the term before when flipping channels one Sunday morning on some Christian channel. Can't remember. I'm an old man. Can you elaborate?

Aum Namasivaya

[ScottMalaysia]

Vanakkam Mohini: Welcome to the forum. I do not understand 'false witness'. I think I've heard the term before when flipping channels one Sunday morning on some Christian channel. Can't remember. I'm an old man. Can you elaborate?

Aum Namasivaya

The term comes from the eighth commandment (ninth in the Protestant numbering).

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." (Exodus 20:16)

Bearing false witness means to say something about someone that is not true.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Scott:

Thanks. Something along the line I suspected. Wonder why people have to use Xian sources and terms. This is a Hindu forum isn't it.

[Sagefrakrobatik]

You could draw parellels to the bible where it speaks of false Prophets and false Christs. There are numerous cases of Christian leaders misleading the people. Jesus often speak of his disciples as sheep needing a shepard. I think this is similar to the concept of Guru.

When I was in India last summer a young man you told me he was a communist was disenchanted with religion and i believe hinduism in paticular because of how religious leaders would exploit the people economically and not give anything back to the commmunity. I think it is important to test religious leaders. If one leader is promoting promiscuity, greed, pedophile or some other perceived vice, making false prophecies etc. I think they should be called out on it.

I remember when Benny Hinn Was being interviewed and the interviewer asked him a question that made Hinn's "manager" lash out at him and told him he shouldnt answer the question.

According to the New Testement Jesus was tested constantly by the rabbis of the Sanhedrin and he proved his qualifications over and over again. So I think overall it is important to look at the motivations of a leader before following them.

[saidevo]

namaste.



When I was in India last summer a young man you told me he was a communist was disenchanted with religion and i believe hinduism in paticular because of how religious leaders would exploit the people economically and not give anything back to the commmunity. I think it is important to test religious leaders.


You are making a sweeping generalization about Hindu religious leaders and institutions. Can you prove what you say by giving an example of a Hindu religious institution that exploited "the people economically and not give anything back to the commmunity"?

What is your 'test' against the Christian leaders and institutions? What would you say to this thread that highlights that Mother Teresa was not what she seemed to be?
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1986&highlight=Teresa

Or to the posts where Yajvan has given some clinching stats of the "behavior of priests" in Churches?

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=14209&postcount=19
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=12912&postcount=17

Perhaps with this purpose you have stated in your profile:

"I study all religions. I want to know why so many Hindus belief in a religion with little proof. where as in Christianity or Islam..."

your agenda is clear.

[saidevo]

namaste KShema.



To be honest I do not know anything about Christianity and I just Googled abt Benny Hinn. So though I can't relate much to your examples, you do have a good point that people should ascertain the leader's qualifications.


Googling, what did you find about Benny Hinn? Did you find him to be the (negatively) perfect example of a fake guru, a fraud on humanity and a blot on whatever little credibility Christianity has? In case you missed:

• 'benny hinn fraud': 27,300 links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=1SS&q=benny+hinn+fraud&aq=0e&oq=benny+hinn+f&aqi=g-e1g9

• 'benny hinn false prophet': 26,300 links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=Po7&q=benny+hinn+false+prophet&aq=1&oq=benny+hinn+f&aqi=g10

• 'benny hinn exposed': 34,400 links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=Po7&q=benny+hinn+exposed&aq=2&oq=benny+hinn&aqi=g10

and a whopping number of 208,000 links for the text 'benny hinn ministries'
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=benny+hinn+ministries&aq=0&oq=benny+hinn&aqi=g10

Shows how gullible the 'flock' of the peasant's religion are, even today, to their 'pastor' and 'shepherd'! And that in a country like the US, supposed to be the most rational and least religious! Americans would readily dethrone a President for moral excesses, but would do nothing about the religious excesses of a person like BH.

But for his open revilement of our Hinduism, why should we Hindus care of what a Christian religious leader like him does to his flock?

[saidevo]

namaste KShama.

With people like BH and other hardcore missionaries who seek to revile Hinduism and abuse our Hindu gods in our own land, you don't need to be condescending in your opinions and expressiions against them. For example, your words, "I can't relate" to examples like BH mean nothing. The point is "you don't need to relate" and have a right to say it as such.

Whatever the Bible and the Christians say, the sacred Hindu concept of 'guru-shiShya' and the relationships and responsibilities they evoke are NOT FOUND IN CHRISTIANITY. Take for example, their common religious names of authority and leadership--all of them in one way or another mean, imply and demand dominion, power and control. Thus

• apostle--a person sent on a mission
• bishop--a high ranking member of the clergy
• pastor--a priest or minister with a spiritual jurisdiction
• priest--a clergyman ranking next below the bishop
• vicar--a deputy for a priest or minister

• archbishop--bishop of the highest rank. (In Christian parlance, Satan is called the archenemy. Isn't it ironical that the chief of the bishops carries the prefix arch in his title?)

Does any of these titles of religious leadership cognate even remotely with the sacred term 'guru'? This is not to say that we don't have our own names of religious authority in Hinduism; only that the names are much more spiritually matured, and the bearers of the title usually consider the religious authority vested on them as a burden and a hindrance to their sAdhana--not as rank they can gloat over in public.

Therefore, the sacred name and concept of 'guru' is unique only to the Hindu Religions Of India, AND WE SHOULD SAY IT LOUD AND CLEAR when a need arises. As with all the concepts of Hinduism, the West can only take the name 'guru' and use it in such terms as 'IT guru', 'management guru' etc. In some cases in India, they even call their pastor a 'guru' and the church an 'ashram' but again for namesake only. Their religion does not permit them to inherit the spiritual concept of a guru into their religious leadership titles.

As discerning Hindus we need to identify, highlight and adore uniquely Hindu religious and spiritual concepts and preserve them from being corrupted. With more and more Westerners testing the spiritual waters of Hinduism with genuine interest, we need to give them the right knowledge about the Hindu spiritual concepts and practice. We also owe it to our children.

[Eastern Mind]

As discerning Hindus we need to identify, highlight and adore uniquely Hindu religious and spiritual concepts and preserve them from being corrupted. With more and more Westerners testing the spiritual waters of Hinduism with genuine interest, we need to give them the right knowledge about the Hindu spiritual concepts and practice. We also owe it to our children.

And this is a huge problem. The western person often comes equipped with the Christian subconscious. I was very lucky to have no religion at all, and therefore had less of it than many people. The Eastern view and the western view might as well be on different planets. Guess which day my temple is the busiest? Sundays of course. Why do white ISCKONites often try to convert, when conversion has absolutely no place in Hinduism? It is all so very insiduous. So much that even here on HDF some of the old strong Hindus succumb to it without realising. Take the Gregorian Calendar New Year for example that just passed. How many of us (besides me, who pointed it out last year so this would be redundancy) even noticed?

If you're a Hindu, and you own a Bible, please take it today, and kindly drop it off in the nearest river.

So lets all try to keep Christianity away from all HINDU forums except the one here on Christianity.

Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

namaste EM.

praNAm, EM (I shouldn't say 'hats off'); you are more of a Hindu than I am, honestly!

Your advice about keeping "Christianity away from all HINDU forums except the one here on Christianity" is the sanest ever offered here in HDF. I can understand a Western Hindu quoting the Bible and seeking echos of it, if any, in the Hindu texts, but when I see some Hindus doing it here unnecessarily, I find it awful and regret that I have to waste my time pouring over the quotes of the alien scripture and seeking their orthdox interpretations. Devotee had the courage to acknowledge and remove his uncessary quote of the Bible in his "Aham BrahmAsmi" thread after I pointed it out to him: let me take this opportunity to appreciate it here and also admit that my post of protest against it (post #19) now stands awkward there, like a carcass stranded ashore. It let it stand as such in the hope that it might serve as a reminder against any inappropriate adventurism.

Dropping the Bible in the nearest river?! I still keep the tiny pocket Bible-NT (KJV) that I was given way back in 1970 when I studied at the St.Joseph's College, Trichy. It has survived the flashfloods that inundated our area in 1976 when the Kauvery was overflowing. Although I never had any need to go through it and have been using it all along as a paperweight, I don't regret having to occasioinally refer to it now when I feel the need to protest when someone here tries to extrapolate its quotes.

[Eastern Mind]

Dropping the Bible in the nearest river?! I still keep the tiny pocket Bible-NT (KJV) that I was given way back in 1970 when I studied at the St.Joseph's College, Trichy. It has survived the flashfloods that inundated our area in 1976 when the Kauvery was overflowing. Although I never had any need to go through it and have been using it all along as a paperweight, I don't regret having to occasioinally refer to it now when I feel the need to protest when someone here tries to extrapolate its quotes.


So lets all try to keep Christianity away from all HINDU forums except the one here on Christianity.

Rest was deleted by me for breaking this thought.


Aum Namasivaya

[MahaHrada]

Vanakkam Saidevo: You see what I mean? St. Josephs College? I remember a quote my Guru used taken from some Catholic Bishop Whatever in Jaffna. "We may not make them Catholics, but at least they will never be good Hindus again." I think you should have a funeral service for your paperweight. Sit by the banks of the mighty Cauvery, start a small 'funeral pyre' and burn it. Then cast the ashes into the Cauvery physically and mentally pray for the remaining thoughts you obtained from that college to float away with the ashes. Then go to a nice little Indian shop and buy yourself a new paperweight. Might I suggest a small brass or stone murthi of Lord Ganesha. He will make a much better paperweight anyway. Then please make a stop back at Trichy and go to the Uchi Pillaiyar atop the rock. Take the Ganesha with you and have the priest hold it against the famed Pillaiyar there for blessings. In fact, if you give me your address I will send you a personal cheque and I will buy you that paperweight. It can be my randon act of kindness for today. I am dead serious.

Just to let you know, next January I will be back in India with my wife. We're doing the Araipadaveedu pilgrimage over 13 days (two days at each temple except for Palani which is 3.) Maybe I can personally hand you a new paperweight somewhere near Swamimalai.

Aum Namasivaya

And i thought only muslims, christians, communists and fascists are burning books. That obviously was a mistake. This is very sad. The idea to use a murti as a paperweight is also very inappropriate to say the least.

[Eastern Mind]

And i thought only muslims, christians, communists and fascists are burning books. That obviously was a mistake. This is very sad. The idea to use a murti as a paperweight is also very inappropriate to say the least.

Deleted by EM for breaking this thought:
So lets all try to keep Christianity away from all HINDU forums except the one here on Christianity.
Aum Namasivaya

[MahaHrada]

So it is more appropriate for a Hindu to carry a constant reminder of another foreign belief system than it is to carry a reminder of his own? Preposterous.
Perhaps carrying a small murthi is inappropriate, I give you that. Maybe a simple rock would do. Any simple paperweight besides the Christian reminder one then. And I suppose you could just return the Bible to whomever gave it to you in the first place. I find Hindus just too polite sometimes. If a proseltyser comes to the door offering bible, the Hindu just takes it in and adds it to his collection of holy books. Imagine what the Christian would say it in return he was offered a copy of Gita. He'd refuse it.

The river sadhana I was referring to is one that is carried on all over... at the Ganges, at the Cauvery ... it is a mystical method of releasing negative thoughtforms. Obviously another idea ... mysticism ... that the Christians have managed to have taken out of the Sanatana Dharma.

Hindus are more polite (weak) than atheists. Here in the west for quite some time the Gideons (proselytysers specialising in Bibles.. think hotel rooms) had a deal with the educational system to distribute bibles to all grade 5 students, regardless of faith. I recall vividly the day a student named Dennis approached my desk one day after the fact. He said, "I don't want this thing. My Dad will kill me if I bring it home. Mr. M., what should I do?"

Without hesitation, I said, "Throw it in the garbage on the way home then." I have no regrets about the wise instruction.

Aum Namasivaya

With proposed book burning you introduce barbaric behaviour into Hinduism, that has no place there. The written word is sarasvati , vak devi herself and is treated with respect. If you want to dispose of something written it is done in a respectful way.

" But Hindu states always supported religious pluralism; Hindu tradition never stifled debate, never stood in the way of science, and in its early stage even incorporated and encouraged it.

Hindu India has had no history of book-burning, of executing heretics or confining dissidents to lunatic asylums. The Buddha could preach his heterodox doctrine till his old age without ever being persecuted. As Dutch indologist Sjoerd de Vries writes: "In Indian society, an amazing tolerance vis-a-vis people of unusual opinions has existed for ages.... Only very few instances are known where conflicts have erupted for the sake of religion. Not until the advent of Islam did India get acquainted with religious persecution."

KOENRAAD ELST

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=3087

Take a look at what kind of persons did indulge in book burning in history and for what reasons and you will see how barbaric and despicable this custom is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning

[Eastern Mind]

Deleted by EM for breaking this thought:
So lets all try to keep Christianity away from all HINDU forums except the one here on Christianity.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM ji MahaHrada ji
I agree with MahaHrrda on burning off books it certainly sounds horrific so on principle I would not wilfully do that act of disrespecting vak devi (although it is bizarre how devi is reduced to demigod by some hindu),
Vidya in the form of books even exercise books were treated with respect well that was the standard in my days.

But I understand where EMji is coming from because I would reject out right any one shoving their scripture in my face. So how would I dispose off bible if I had it in my possession? Not in a way if I were to hurt some ones feelings not in a wilful way that would rebound on our character. I remember seeing this hindu lady on you tube rejecting Ganesh Murti breaking it when she embraced Islam. Now I would not like to be like them. EM ji please do not take this as criticism because like you I advise any Hindu to reject Bible only I find drastic burning brings a different dimension to our Hindu way of thinking.
On the subject of disposing a question arises, we frequently get flyers, calendars etc in the post where gods are present how do we dispose them?
Jai Shree Krishna

[Ekanta]

I must tell a "funny" story. First time I was in India and visited a temple I sat outside waiting and had brought a book with me. Since it took some time to open I decided to sit on the book... I remember several indians became quite upset by this... I asked why and it was the story of Vak... I dont sit on books after that, and neither do I put them on the ground. :) [it wasnt a bible] ops! I mentioned the forbidden word.

[Sagefrakrobatik]

namaste.



You are making a sweeping generalization about Hindu religious leaders and institutions. Can you prove what you say by giving an example of a Hindu religious institution that exploited "the people economically and not give anything back to the commmunity"?

What is your 'test' against the Christian leaders and institutions? What would you say to this thread that highlights that Mother Teresa was not what she seemed to be?
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1986&highlight=Teresa

Or to the posts where Yajvan has given some clinching stats of the "behavior of priests" in Churches?

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=14209&postcount=19
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=12912&postcount=17

Perhaps with this purpose you have stated in your profile:

"I study all religions. I want to know why so many Hindus belief in a religion with little proof. where as in Christianity or Islam..."

your agenda is clear.

First of all I didnt make those comments I was refrencing someone else know that i think of it let me correct myself i think the word he used was superstions.

I would be more than happy to see you provide me with a list of hindu based organizations that provide the community; so far all I know are three. BAPS, Ramakrishna Mission, and ISKON. When I was in India we visited Ama's Ashram so I will count that as well.

It is well known that the church has a problem with pedophile. So that really is not saying much.

I put my profile quote purposely in hopes that someone like you would challenge me otherwise.

The only reason why i refrenced the bible was because I am re-reading it now and underlying everything I think is important. Currently I am reading the New Testment I am near the end of the Acts of the Apostles. I will soon start reading a concise version of the Mahabarta side by side with the new testment. Last few months I was reading the Old Testment and the Ramyana. So my post is a reflection of something I read in the bible recently that i thought was relatable.

[devotee]

Namaste all,

Once I was invited by one of our business partners to X-mas celebrations. I went there with my family. The atmosphere during such Abrahmic celebrations is quite different from Hindu Pooja ceremonies during auspicious days. People were giving lectures ... girls singing carols ... and then dinner ... didn't appear to me an atmosphere of of devotion (may be I was biased) ...

There I was handed over a copy of New Testament. I have read it. I keep it along with my other religious books ... Upanishads, Ashtavakra Gita, Books on Buddhism, Islam etc.

Books are considered a form of Maa Sarasvati in Hindu Dharma. So, all books, even blank notebooks (also pens, pencils, cutter etc. related with reading writing) are revered in Hinduism.

And what I find very impressive in all books that in spite of containing so much different & contradictory ideas within them they don't fight ! Now, that is true Hinduism !!

OM

[saidevo]

namaste EM and other members.

EM, I admire your courage and wisdom in deleting the portion of your post relating to the way you suggested for disposing the Bible-NT I was given in college 40 years back. Now that the post is suitably edited by EM, I request members not to flog a dead horse.

I should furnish one thing here for the sake of record: The Catholic Christians under the banner of 'SJ' (Society of Jesus) who ran the affairs of the St.Joseph's College, Trichy, NEVER EVER tried in any way to thrust their religion on us Hindus who were the cream and the majority among their students and comprised nearly 50% of their teaching and non-teaching staff members. The pocket Bible-NT copy that each student was given was just a routine: there were no sermons under the guise of moral science classes or any efforts of conversion in any manner.

I am proud to have studied in that college, which provided the best education in the city in those days in Arts and Sciences. In the Physics Department I was attached to, the two leading and seniormost professors were orthodox South Indian brahmins: Prof.L.K.KrishNamUrti and Prof.K.Anantha Padmanabhan. Their classes were always in full attendance and their lectures were heavenly. Although the departments were headed by the Christian Fathers, or other Christian professors, the Hindu lecturers were acclaimed for their scholarship. Many of them proudly wore their religious marks on their foreheads.

We Hindu students felt thoroughly at home in the College, which was older than the Madras University it was affiliated to, by 25 years. The College knew and appreciated that it owed its fame and name to the bright Hindu students who brought them the laurels. In fact, during the first year of our graduate course, the College declared a holiday for itself on the day of AvaNi AviTTam, the day when the Hindu brahmins changed their sacred thread. It was the first time in the history of St.Joseph's that the College dared to declare a holiday for an orthodox Brahmin Hindu ceremony.

We never had any ideas then about the conversion efforts of the Christians and saw none of it in our ancient city or college campus. Some of my close friends were Christians. As we had no university exams in the first year of the graduation courses in those days, I devoted much of my time studying English literature, which was a passion for me in those days. The Library Warden who was a Reverend Christian gladly gave me special permission to their reference section meant only for the MA (English) students. An Anglo-Indian lecturer by name Keith Matthews (a boyish-looking young man always dressed in tights) was my mentor in my adventures with English verse. Besides him, I used to show my poetic compositions to an Anglo-Indian friend of mine, who was also the cynosure of the class. When I gave him my poem on Deepavali to read, he gave it back with a small note suggesting that when I write about an Eastern festival, I should not permeate the atmosphere with that of the West (In my poem, I had imagined Ram and Rahim to celebrate Deepavali at our orthodox Hindu home along with John and Jill).

The SJC has earned an entry in the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Joseph's_College,_Tiruchirapalli. It has its own website today at http://www.sjctni.edu/ (link currently not working though).

I had no idea about the Christian concept of God in those days. Yet I saw God in their discipline and religious asceticism, the cleanliness of their surroundings, the way they felt proud of their heritage and such other things, which inspired me to have some of them in my own religious rigours.

[saidevo]

namaste KShama.

Since you seem to think that the postings of my experiences with my college, the SJC are not relevant to the topic of this thread, let me clarify:

Every Hindu is taught in childhood: "mAatru devo bhava; pitru devo bhava; AchArya devo bhava; atithi devo bhava".

These four people are the surest gurus that everyone of us consistently meet and live with in life. Since the school and college we studied at are in the AchArya sthAnam for us, a Hindu never tires talking about their glories. For all the Christianity-bashing I am known for (and mostly appreciated) in HDF, I just wanted to put it on record that a Christian Educational Institution of those days when it happened to be in the AchArya sthAnam of a person's life, was not necessarily a fake guru because of its religious affiliations, although these days the situation might well have changed.

We have read in many Hindu stories that either the guru or the guru's messenger comes to a person in the form of an atithi--guest; so one way to keep looking for a guru is perhaps to watch your atithis.

[saidevo]

namaste.



First of all I didnt make those comments I was refrencing someone else know that i think of it let me correct myself i think the word he used was superstions.


This is a usual ploy of escapism when countered, so it means nothing to me.



I would be more than happy to see you provide me with a list of hindu based organizations that provide the community; so far all I know are three. BAPS, Ramakrishna Mission, and ISKON. When I was in India we visited Ama's Ashram so I will count that as well.


What an unabashed display of ego that some youth are capable of and consider it a merit! You would count the BAPS, RKM, ISKCON and even "Ama's Ashram" (there is no such Hindu name as Ama; AMA is an abbreviation for the American Medical Association) because YOU visited them, and for others I need to give you a list! For one who would visit India occasionally, meet a commie friend and consider his words as the gospel truth about Hindu gurus and Hindu religious institutions, even seeing may not amount to believing: if you are serious and are capable of being objective in your comparative religious studies, search the Net, my young friend.



It is well known that the church has a problem with pedophile. So that really is not saying much.


The pedophile scandal is a problem of the church and not that of its followers?! And that doesn't say much about the church? What else you people need to take religious things with the severity that they deserve?

Or perhaps, since you have not mentioned anything about your religion in your profile, you consider yourself irreligious, but in that case, why bother about Hinduism?



I put my profile quote purposely in hopes that someone like you would challenge me otherwise.


Because of the limitation of length to the text, your Purpose in the profile reads only this: "I study all religions. I want to know why so many Hindus belief in a religion with little proof. where as in Christianity or Islam"... Do complete what you wanted to say here in a post, so people like me can challenge you meaningfully and with purpose, instead of wasting our precious time.



The only reason why i refrenced the bible was because I am re-reading it now and underlying everything I think is important. Currently I am reading the New Testment I am near the end of the Acts of the Apostles. I will soon start reading a concise version of the Mahabarta side by side with the new testment. Last few months I was reading the Old Testment and the Ramyana. So my post is a reflection of something I read in the bible recently that i thought was relatable.


I expect some cock and bull story to soon emerge, out of your cursory studies of concise versions of Hindu itihAsas. First, try to get the spellings of Hindu text names right, my friend!

[TatTvamAsi]

Giving 'false-witness' is a grave sin.

are you a dead-jew worshiper (christian)?

please take that garbage somewhere else and stay with it! :rolleyes:

[TatTvamAsi]

false Christs.

hahahahahhahahah.... does anyone else see the irony in this?

That dead jew on a stick jesus is the biggest FAKE "guru" in the world and deadbeats have the audacity to denigrate the likes of Sai Baba? :rolleyes:

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Saidevo,

I completely agree with you on this.

Benny Hinn is a rascal par excellence. He should be shot and then run over for good measure.

He had the arrogance to come to India and denigrate Hinduism and convert Hindus to christianity for worshiping that droopy corpse on a stick (jesus)!

benny hinn and other worthless fakes like jesus are the real threat to humanity and society; especially if we are to have a semblance of peace and harmony.

Namaskar.



namaste KShema.



Googling, what did you find about Benny Hinn? Did you find him to be the (negatively) perfect example of a fake guru, a fraud on humanity and a blot on whatever little credibility Christianity has? In case you missed:

• 'benny hinn fraud': 27,300 links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=1SS&q=benny+hinn+fraud&aq=0e&oq=benny+hinn+f&aqi=g-e1g9

• 'benny hinn false prophet': 26,300 links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=Po7&q=benny+hinn+false+prophet&aq=1&oq=benny+hinn+f&aqi=g10

• 'benny hinn exposed': 34,400 links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=Po7&q=benny+hinn+exposed&aq=2&oq=benny+hinn&aqi=g10

and a whopping number of 208,000 links for the text 'benny hinn ministries'
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=benny+hinn+ministries&aq=0&oq=benny+hinn&aqi=g10

Shows how gullible the 'flock' of the peasant's religion are, even today, to their 'pastor' and 'shepherd'! And that in a country like the US, supposed to be the most rational and least religious! Americans would readily dethrone a President for moral excesses, but would do nothing about the religious excesses of a person like BH.

But for his open revilement of our Hinduism, why should we Hindus care of what a Christian religious leader like him does to his flock?

[Eastern Mind]

I still keep the tiny pocket Bible-NT (KJV) that I was given way back in 1970 when I studied at the St.Joseph's College, Trichy.

This is exactly where you and I differ. I hold the view that all things hold a mystical vibration. For me, the Bible holds a mystical vibration not akin to mine. I don't keep meat or booze in my house for a similar reason, albeit the bible's vibration is far more subtle. The idea of 'subtle' itself was what I was trying to get across in the first place. Its just too bad there weren't more fine schools built and run by Hindus adjacent to temples. What do you know of Annamalai University near Chidambaram?

Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

namaste EM.

Oh, come on, I think you are going overboard! You sure know about how your Gurudeva compared the Bible with the Vedas and even found some similarities although he stressed the differences more:

Dancing with Shiva: Resource 5: Religious Comparisons
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_r5_truth-compare.html

Several Hindu gurus and leaders have opined that in the wake of Hinduism being under siege from the adharmic Abrahamic forces, Hindus should acquire some knowledge of the limitations of those alien scriptures, expose them and spread the knowledge among Hindus, so they are armed with details of knowledge in the event of an attempt on their faith.

ANNAmalai University, Chidambaram is a very popular and capable university, but like every other university, affiliated to the Western curriculam of Arts, Sciences and Engineering. If the Hindu religious institutions and leaders could unite to set up our own TV channel, News channels and educational institutions plus an intensive research facility for an all round research of our Sanskrit scriptures, the efforts can go a long way to save the Hindu youth who are easily and willingly misguided by the western influences.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Saidevo: I actually appreciate your views, you know. Yes you are correct that there are comparisons in "Dancing With Siva' . Somebody did some research. But trust me, that is about all we need to read.. brief summary comparisons. It is sufficient for me to know what some of the core principles of Christianity are in order for me to know that its not my faith. I assume that is true for you. Like you, I am not a Christian basher or hater. I used to have many Christian friends, but now that I am retired from public works it is less. I have no problem with conversion, in fact, as long as its done ethically, and the person who converts knows the WHOLE story, not just selected bits of it that coincide with Hinduism. I think we can agree that the forces of Christianity do work their way into traditional Hinduism.

I took a look at St. Joseph's website, and it seems they focus on the sciences etc. But I really don't know. I think most students would be keener on getting an education so they can support their families than on the religious affiliation of the place. I didn't see the familiar vibhuthi foreheads in many of the pictures though. I like the familiar vibhuthi forehead look. I guess I just like being able to see Hindu imagery everywhere.

I still think we differ on the mystical component, but that's fine. I respect your views. I apologise if I offended you in any way.

Aum Namasivaya

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

Originally Posted by Mohini Shakti Devi
Giving 'false-witness' is a grave sin.


'false-witness' could be a protestant King James english rendering ---I not concerned with origin of the lexicon but rather the essence of phrase.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=476)
The term comes from the eighth commandment (ninth in the Protestant numbering).

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." (Exodus 20:16)

Bearing false witness means to say something about someone that is not true.

IMO, I intended a broader reach of the idea of "Lying" ---is a act that accrues bad karma and worsens ones samsaric next lives.

Lying casues bad karma.




Originally Posted by Eastern Mind
Wonder why people have to use Xian sources and terms. This is a Hindu forum isn't it.

Originally Posted by Eastern Mind
I do not understand 'false witness' . . . Can you elaborate?



Yes. I can elaborate. Just as the golden Rule, ‘Do unto others as you would have done to you’ is derived from an aphorism in the Vedas, similarly, ‘False witness’ means ‘to lie’; ‘to give false testimony’; ‘to perjure’ (usually prefaced with an oath sworn over sacred writ); ‘to talk beyond one’s knowledge’.

“Truthfullness” is next to godliness.


The was a traveler who asked for directions from a stranger that gave false directions [a stranger who craved self-importance]. After the traveler realized the directions were faulty, the traveler made a promise never to the same as done by the stranger’s false counsel.

False witness simply means ‘To speak a lie’ aka, ‘to not speak the Truth’.

My Point is to simply that ‘lying’ ‘Un-truthfulness’ is an Absolute Law of societal structure.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=530)
. . . jesus is the biggest FAKE "guru" in the world and deadbeats have the audacity to denigrate . . .


My guru and my husbands guru taught us along time ago that Jesus illustrated the principle, “Aham Brahmaasmi”. We are Spirits in a material body in a material world. When this was understood by common man, since the era it first occurred, allowed for the development of human-rights as we know them today. It is harder to deify a monarch if all the constituency believes that the souls of man are united with the Super-Soul who art in Heaven.

Regarding the allusion to “Deadbeats”:

“Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it” --- George Santiana Santana

[sanjaya]

IMO, I intended a broader reach of the idea of "Lying" ---is a act that accrues bad karma and worsens ones samsaric next lives.

Lying casues bad karma.

In general yes, I don't think you'd get any argument. However, Christians take this commandment much more seriously, literally to the point of death. I believe most Hindus would agree that there are cases in which it is necessary to lie to evil people in order to thwart them. And there's Sri Krishna's statement about not wasting one's scruples on adharmic people who don't deserve it. But evangelical Christians, being absolutists, believe that lying is always wrong. If you peruse some Christian forums, you'll find various topics addressing this issue. The classical example is often given of the Nazi guard in a concentration camp who finds some personal item of his missing, and he begins shooting prisoners until someone tells him who stole it. Presumably the actual thief has covered his tracks well, and doesn't reveal himself. The question is posed: is it acceptable for another prisoner to lie to the guard and blame the theft on a person who has already been killed? Most of us would think that this is a no-brainer, but you'd be surprised at how many evangelicals still believe that it is wrong to lie, citing that you shoudn't combat sin with sin. Instead they suggest that a person "trust God" and tell the truth anyway. And this view is not isolated to a few random people on a discussion forum. I have Christian friends whom I've heard addressing the same topic (with a new, but similar, hypothetical scenario). They all come to the same conclusion. I guess when you believe that yours is the only true path to salvation, it's easier to construct an absolutist commandments that are completely detached from the real world. I'm all for absolute moral values, but Christians fail to realize that these absolute morals will result in different actions based on the situation in question. Hinduism lays out absolute morals, but doesn't give specific commands that must be obeyed in all cases. Christianity, on the other hand, simply says "thou shalt..." without regard to the specific situation. Maybe this is part of why the West is morally decaying at a higher rate than India. Obviously no Christian obeys this moral code as strictly as it's defined, but the issue of Christian hypocrisy probably deserves its own thread.

Since the issue has been raised of Christianity's subtle influence on us, I think it's important to bring this up to illustrate how their lofty theological principles can have a real effect on us. The absolute commandments of Christianity have an effect on this whole abortion debate that's been going on in America for the last forty years. Virtually all Christians take a pro-life position on this issue. Now, I don't mean to criticize the pro-life position, in fact I tend to lean that way myself. However, these people will also oppose stem-cell research on the grounds that this research involves using leftover embryos from in vitro fertilization attempts. Here we have a case of Christian absolutism having a very negative affect on research that could cure many kinds of ailments. Again, this is because Christians take their commandments literally to the point of absurdity.

Now here's what's really strange about all of this. Christian morality is only based loosely on what the Bible actually says. There's no commandment in the Bible which says "thou shalt not do an abortion." In fact the Biblical pro-life case is weak at best (again, not that I'm criticizing the pro-life position itself). And the commandment against bearing false witness, when read in context, only applies to lying in court. Essentially it's a commandment against perjury. There are examples of people in the Bible lying in order to save lives, and these lies are approved of by God (Bible references available upon request). It's almost as if Christians ignore their own holy books in order to come up with doctrines that will best instill obedience to their authorities. For example, though Christians are theoretically opposed to all forms of lying, they have no problem with government operatives who lie while performing clandestine intelligence operations. This is because another of evangelical Christianity's commandments requires American patriotism, and no evangelical would ever criticize the government. Thus they come up with theological gymnastics to explain why lying is only OK when it's being done for the government. Perhaps this is also how so-called pro-life evangelicals justify their love of guns and violence.

We need to be aware of how Christianity affects people's behavior and causes cognative dissonance, so that we can avoid falling into the same trap. This is especially true for those of us who live in the West.


My guru and my husbands guru taught us along time ago that Jesus illustrated the principle, “Aham Brahmaasmi”. We are Spirits in a material body in a material world. When this was understood by common man, since the era it first occurred, allowed for the development of human-rights as we know them today. It is harder to deify a monarch if all the constituency believes that the souls of man are united with the Super-Soul who art in Heaven.

Regarding the allusion to “Deadbeats”:

“Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it” --- George Santiana Santana

With the obvious exception of TTA, I think most of us have no problem with Jesus. Except for his hell doctrine (which is perhaps misunderstood due to Paul), pretty much everything he says agrees with Hinduism as I understand it. To paraphrase Mahatma Gandhi, the problem with Christianity is the Christians, who are so unlike Christ. Given all that Jesus preached about care for the poor, how else could it be that Christians only care about guns, gays, and conversion?

Let's consider your point about human rights. I agree that it's harder to deify a monarch when you believe that everyone has a soul that comes from Brahman. In Christianity, only Christians have the Holy Spirit (the rest of us are pagans), but since most people in medieval Europe were at least nominally Christian, let's ignore that for the moment. In theory, Jesus' teachings should cause monarchies to evolve into democracies. But Jesus' teachings took a back seat to Christian absolutist commandments. The idea of the king's "divine right" to rule is a characteristically Christian value. Just as modern evangelical Christianity teaches American patriotism, medieval Christianity taught all of Britain's subjects to chant "God save the King." This comes from the Bible's teaching that all goverments are ordained by God. Christians tweak this slightly (as they do with many Biblical teachings), and say that only Christian governments are ordained by God. That's why Christian converts in India are instilled with American patriotism instead of Indian patriotism.

Yes, Jesus' teachings teach human rights. But since when have Christians cared what Jesus taught? If we ever study Jesus, we should do so in a completely Hindu context. EM's warning about staying away from Christianity is based on the very poisonous effect that it has on the human mind. We as Hindus need to stay away from their churches, and only read their literature with a strong mind and a good understanding of how adharmic Christian teachings really are.

[Sagefrakrobatik]

What an unabashed display of ego that some youth are capable of and consider it a merit! You would count the BAPS, RKM, ISKCON and even "Ama's Ashram" (there is no such Hindu name as Ama; AMA is an abbreviation for the American Medical Association) because YOU visited them, and for others I need to give you a list! For one who would visit India occasionally, meet a commie friend and consider his words as the gospel truth about Hindu gurus and Hindu religious institutions, even seeing may not amount to believing: if you are serious and are capable of being objective in your comparative religious studies, search the Net, my young friend.


The person I was refering to is a social work major he deals with poverty all the time. He told me how people give and give money to spiritual leaders but never get anything back. I wish I could get a hold of him so I could explain it better but he never got in contact with me. I dont consider what he said to be absolute truth its just an opinion.
BTW i was refering to Amma, Mata Amritanandamayi Devi



The pedophile scandal is a problem of the church and not that of its followers?! And that doesn't say much about the church? What else you people need to take religious things with the severity that they deserve?


Could you rephrase this i am not getting you.




Or perhaps, since you have not mentioned anything about your religion in your profile, you consider yourself irreligious, but in that case, why bother about Hinduism?


I was raised Catholic but have been on and off studying different religions to find out which one is the true religion. Either all religions are true none are true or some are true and not others. Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world. How can i know about religions comprehensively without studying hinduism?



Because of the limitation of length to the text, your Purpose in the profile reads only this: "I study all religions. I want to know why so many Hindus belief in a religion with little proof. where as in Christianity or Islam"... Do complete what you wanted to say here in a post, so people like me can challenge you meaningfully and with purpose, instead of wasting our precious time.


What I am trying to say is that there are numerous books on how Christianity is superior to other religions and how Jesus did exist yet I dont see this same rigorous scholarship in Hinduism. Most Hindus I talk to do not care if the stories their holy books are factual or not. I dont see as many literalist in Hinduism as I do in CHristianity. I think this has to do with the bible itself. From the Torah to the Gospel It is clear that the Christian God is said to be "real" whereas all others are fake idols. In Paul he speaks of this in the post-ressurected cannon. How he told people that he had proof his God was true and the others aren't. I would quote the bible to you for specific examples but it would take to long. Maybe in another post. I am not letting Christianity off the hook either. I plan on fully investigating Christian beliefs as well. From all perspectives; Christian, Atheist, Jewish Muslim etc.

I will give you a more concrete idea of what i mean. Sometimes when i am in the bookstore I see Christian books that attempt to "prove" Jesus existed and he said who he said he was.

I tried to find the same type of investigation on Krishna or Rama or any other character from the Vedas, Puranas, Epics, Upainshads etc. when I visited several book stores in Kerala but I found nothing.




I expect some cock and bull story to soon emerge, out of your cursory studies of concise versions of Hindu itihAsas. First, try to get the spellings of Hindu text names right, my friend!


Well after i read it i plan on going through the forums and seeing how other people intrepeted those stories.

[Eastern Mind]

Sage: If you intend to study Hinduism with any justice, you'd better have some time. There are at least 100 times more words in our scriptures than in any of the relatively small books of the three Abrahamic religions. So imagine studying your Bible through 100 times. Besides that, almost all of it is in Sanskrit. Any translations are biased as per the translator. So be prepared to become a Sanskrit expert and discover new concepts for the mind that don't exist in English.

Then there is the non-scripture Hinduism, as often stated in this:" Hinduism is a way of life." So be prepared to live in several hundred villages for at least a year each so you can get a handle on the rich diversity of some 30 languages, local food types, varieties of bananas, dress types, multitudinous local customs, both family and society, how the varna structure operates without words, etc.

But best of luck to you. Wouldn't it be simpler just to remain a Catholic and live a good life within that?

Aum Namasivaya.

[sanjaya]

What I am trying to say is that there are numerous books on how Christianity is superior to other religions and how Jesus did exist yet I dont see this same rigorous scholarship in Hinduism. Most Hindus I talk to do not care if the stories their holy books are factual or not. I dont see as many literalist in Hinduism as I do in CHristianity. I think this has to do with the bible itself. From the Torah to the Gospel It is clear that the Christian God is said to be "real" whereas all others are fake idols. In Paul he speaks of this in the post-ressurected cannon. How he told people that he had proof his God was true and the others aren't. I would quote the bible to you for specific examples but it would take to long. Maybe in another post. I am not letting Christianity off the hook either. I plan on fully investigating Christian beliefs as well. From all perspectives; Christian, Atheist, Jewish Muslim etc.

I will give you a more concrete idea of what i mean. Sometimes when i am in the bookstore I see Christian books that attempt to "prove" Jesus existed and he said who he said he was.

I tried to find the same type of investigation on Krishna or Rama or any other character from the Vedas, Puranas, Epics, Upainshads etc. when I visited several book stores in Kerala but I found nothing.

Thank you for elaborating. I've always been curious about the statement in your profile asking why we Hindus believe in a religion that lacks proof. Specifically, I think there may be some confusion here concerning the idea of "proof," and evidence.

The issue here is historicity. Christianity makes certain historical claims on which the whole religion hinges. As the Bible itself says, if Jesus didn't literally rise from the dead, then Christianity is utterly worthless (see 1 Corinthians 15). This reliance on historicity, I believe, is somewhat unique to Christianity. Even the Abrahamic religion of Judaism, from which Christianity comes, does not share this ethic. There is no physical evidence that Moses ever existed, that the Jews ever lived in Egypt, that there was an exodus, or that God ever literally spoke to them at Mount Sinai. Most educated Jews are well aware of this, and yet they believe that their Torah comes from God and contains valuable teachings. Likewise, it isn't important to most of us Hindus if Rama or Krishna were historical figures, or if the stories are based only on kernals of truth. Their teachings contain valuable wisdom which has a very real impact on our lives.

I would actually contend that there is more evidence for Hinduism than there is for Christianity. As the Buddha said, you shouldn't trust what other people say about God. You need to experience him for yourself. Numerous people in Hinduism have prayed to God, done pujas to him, and had powerful religious experiences. And as Krishna promised, every time there is a decrease in the world's righteousness, God has become incarnate as a man. Many Hindu saints have appeared throughout the centuries and have done recorded miracles. Take the example of Shirdi Sai Baba. He lived in a small village in India, taught his disciples many spiritual teachings, and performed miracles that were recorded by contemporary sources. Sounds similar to the Christian gospel story, doesn't it? The difference is that Baba lived in the nineteenth century. We even have photographs of him, so there's no doubt as to this person's existence. In Christianity, there's no such thing as experiencing God (except perhaps in the new Pentecostal churches, which have their own host of problems). You have to take the Bible on faith, regardless of whether it corresponds to reality or not. Christians explain away miracles in other religions as the work of demons. A scientifically-minded person should take issue with this doctrine, because it's completely untestable. If you adopt the idea that the Bible is true and that demons can fake all of God's miracles, there's no test you could possibly perform to disprove this claim.

But what about the volumes of literature you talked about, which are supposed proofs of Christianity? I've read a lot of these works, and the scholarship is laughable. Take creation "science" for example. I think the poor quality of creationist literature speaks for itself. The proofs of the resurrection of Jesus are also dubious. A cursory reading of the gospel accounts of the resurrection (there are four of them) will reveal recollections that seem to contradict each other. Thus, much of the literature defending the resurrection doctrine focuses on harmonizing the gospels. The basic claim is that the gospels should be read like newspapers, where different witnesses will tell stories that appear to differ simply because they're coming from different points of view. At best, this may show that the gospels are self-consistent. But this does nothing to give the gospels any more veracity than the historical claims of other religions. Christians will claim that "numerous" extrabiblical sources refer to Jesus as a historical figure. In reality, "numerous" means two, namely Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. Each of these Roman writers mention Jesus once, but only when talking about his followers. And if I' not mistaken, their writings are from the second century. So this simply amounts to a proof that Christianity existed in the second century. I've even heard Christians claim that we have Roman court records of Jesus' trial. That claim is patently false, no such records exist.

Given that there are two billion Christians in the world, statistically there are going to be some smart Christians out there. The problem is that there are working with a religious scripture that contains numerous errors and illogical statements. So what you have is some very smart people working hard to make an illogical book sound reasonable. They've got very good rhetorical skills and access to the vast financial resources of the West, but this doesn't amount to evidence. At one point in my life I personally considered Christianity. I did a good deal of research, and even read the whole Bible. I found my own religion, Hinduism, to be far more reasonable. Hinduism has correspondance to reality. You can experience God for yourself, and you're not forced to believe in a religious scripture that contradicts what you can learn with your five senses.

I'd be interested in having a discussion on this (start a new thread if you feel so inclined). Whatever evidence you think points to Christianity, I believe it will ultimately prove to be spurious. It seems to me that there is much more evidence that Hinduism is a true religion.

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Sage: If you intend to study Hinduism with any justice, you'd better have some time. There are at least 100 times more words in our scriptures than in any of the relatively small books of the three Abrahamic religions. So imagine studying your Bible through 100 times. Besides that, almost all of it is in Sanskrit. Any translations are biased as per the translator. So be prepared to become a Sanskrit expert and discover new concepts for the mind that don't exist in English.

Then there is the non-scripture Hinduism, as often stated in this:" Hinduism is a way of life." So be prepared to live in several hundred villages for at least a year each so you can get a handle on the rich diversity of some 30 languages, local food types, varieties of bananas, dress types, multitudinous local customs, both family and society, how the varna structure operates without words, etc.

But best of luck to you. Wouldn't it be simpler just to remain a Catholic and live a good life within that?

Aum Namasivaya.

Well I will just keep it on "Scriptural Hinduism" The same lengthy exigencies would be required for other religions as well I suppse. If i would like to study Judaism I would have to learn Hebrew, read the Tanakh, The Kabal, and the both the Encyclopedic size Palestinian Talmud and Babylonian. Likewise if I want to know Islam from a scriptural standpoint I would study the QUran in Arabic read the numerous hadiths keeping in mind that Shias and SUnnis have diffferent collections.

What about Sikhism? Doesnt the Granith Sahib contain several text from a variety of languages? Buddhism?? Do you know how long the Tripitka is?

So you see one thing that sticks scripturally from Christianity among other religions is its brevity. You could add all the "Gnostic gospels" like Thomas, Phillip Mary etc. but the Church Fathers did not include them in the cannonization process. You can also add the "Tradition" of catholic saints but that wouldnt really count because it came after Paul! See how confusing this is!

The Two Versions of Hindu Epics I have are from C. Rajagopalachari. They are roughly 400 plus pages. That may contain everything in these gigantic stories but at least I am doing more to understand Hinduism then some New Age baby boomer who read "An autobigraphy of a Yogi" Or some young hipster from the 60's who wanted to protested "the white Establishment" by dabling into Eastern Philosophy for "Enlightenment?"

Sorry to sound crass but I sometimes wonder about these Non-indian Hindus who "try out" hinduism to get a spiritual high with out having a comprehensive understanding of the religion.

[Sagefrakrobatik]

I also wanted to ask if I learn Hindi will my understanding of the hindu scriptures be different then if i were to read them in English? I learned a little bit of Sanskrit when I was in India. "MOMMA NOMMA DAVID" My professor told me that all Indian languages are derived from Sanskrit. Thats nice but I want to learn a language I can also use in everyday conversation. Alot of words from different languages come from Latin but Latin Wouldnt help me navagate my way through South America.

Sorry for going off the Tangent

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Thank you for elaborating. I've always been curious about the statement in your profile asking why we Hindus believe in a religion that lacks proof. Specifically, I think there may be some confusion here concerning the idea of "proof," and evidence.


The issue here is historicity. Christianity makes certain historical claims on which the whole religion hinges. As the Bible itself says, if Jesus didn't literally rise from the dead, then Christianity is utterly worthless (see 1 Corinthians 15). This reliance on historicity, I believe, is somewhat unique to Christianity.

This is true. One thing I noticed as I read over the bible again and underline everything I find interesting or important is the empahsis on what is perceived to be the Truth. Paul goes to different cultures explaining to them why Jesus is the Son of God and why the Ressurection is the truth whereas other gods dont exist or are demons. But you can go further. There are several examples of the Tribe of Israel "proving" the superiority of their God over the non-existent inferior "Idol-gods."

In fact part of the Old testment does not deny that other gods exist but that the supreme God is the God of Israel. Later the concept evolves into strict monotheism where there are no other gods except God elohim or Hashem as commonly refered to. There is a great book on this subject called the "Evolution of God" which talks of this.

I think this is why apologetics is so central to Christianity as oppose to other religons.




Even the Abrahamic religion of Judaism, from which Christianity comes, does not share this ethic. There is no physical evidence that Moses ever existed, that the Jews ever lived in Egypt, that there was an exodus, or that God ever literally spoke to them at Mount Sinai. Most educated Jews are well aware of this, and yet they believe that their Torah comes from God and contains valuable teachings. Likewise, it isn't important to most of us Hindus if Rama or Krishna were historical figures, or if the stories are based only on kernals of truth. Their teachings contain valuable wisdom which has a very real impact on our lives.

For me thats fine. If gambling lust etc is bad then who cares how you recieve that message as so long as you recieve it. However for fundamentalist Christians other religions are "false Prophets" "Wolfs in Sheep Clothing" but lets entertain these notions. Suppose that all religions are false but Christianity. All other teachers are false but these religions teach the same value as christianity; love the poor, love your neigbor, but they dont affirm or they might deny the Crucifixtion historicity of the bible, John 3:16 etc.

Does it still matter? Well of course it does if fate of your soul is held in abeyance because of it? If the fate your eternal soul is determined by an article of religious belief such as monotheism or the Historicty of Jesus then I guess it matters.

But if it mattered so much why would not God come down here or do something more powerful to show with out a shadow of a doubt that Christianity is true and absolute. If I was God and compassion was one of my qualities why would I only allow 1/3 of the world's population attain heaven and the rest suffer eternal hell? If there was only one true path to God as God I would ensure that there is no confusion and eliminate all other religions. But lets face it that does not happen. If as God this was important to me that people follow only one "Straight and narrow path" (read religion) Overnight I would have all the the non true religious institutions be destroyed. Or do something to that magnitutude rather than rely simply on human beings to convince each other of the true religion.

Sorry to sound extreme.


I would actually contend that there is more evidence for Hinduism than there is for Christianity. As the Buddha said, you shouldn't trust what other people say about God. You need to experience him for yourself.

That reminds me of another saying attributed to the Buddha







Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

Interstingly enough through an internet search i come to discover that this sayings is attributed incorrectly. It is not in the pali Cannon but as one internet user posted is an incorrect translation a more precise translation would render the reading;

Kalamas in Anguttura Nikaya 3:65 - "...don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them."


sorry for the digression i just thought it was interesting.

[Znanna]

Here's a bit of a spoof ... but sometimes humor is most revealing!

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1002/bookburning.html

More seriously, book burning hasn't gone away, there are many who use "religion" to promote their agenda of expansion of a particular point of view to greater numbers in search of greater influence over a larger populace.

Personally, while I try to respect others' POV, I have a problem with anyone else's interpretation or restriction of interpretation of "HOLY" force fed ... to me, the only path is to experience "HOLY" without interpretation; I can only find this in meditation. Understanding and interpretation of the experience gained through practice is aided by study, but study follows practice, IMO, it is not the same.

Namaste,
ZN

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Numerous people in Hinduism have prayed to God, done pujas to him, and had powerful religious experiences.

It would be interesting to hear about these "experiences"


And as Krishna promised, every time there is a decrease in the world's righteousness, God has become incarnate as a man.

This is one of my favorite verses in the Gita it shows that God's relationship to man is evolutionary. It keeps evolving. In the United Church of Christ there is a common saying "God is still speaking" i think this is a similar idea that God's inteventionism does not end with any paticular religion.


Many Hindu saints have appeared throughout the centuries and have done recorded miracles. Take the example of Shirdi Sai Baba. He lived in a small village in India, taught his disciples many spiritual teachings, and performed miracles that were recorded by contemporary sources. Sounds similar to the Christian gospel story, doesn't it? The difference is that Baba lived in the nineteenth century. We even have photographs of him, so there's no doubt as to this person's existence.

Its interesting I always hear this guy mentioned. I get him confused with Sathya Sai Baba for whom I have seen alot of people criticize him. Did the Sai Baba from the 19th century ever know about Rama krishna?


In Christianity, there's no such thing as experiencing God (except perhaps in the new Pentecostal churches, which have their own host of problems). You have to take the Bible on faith, regardless of whether it corresponds to reality or not.

What about Christian Mysticism? or the biographies of the Saints? Paticularly saints like St. Francis of Assis.



Christians explain away miracles in other religions as the work of demons. A scientifically-minded person should take issue with this doctrine, because it's completely untestable. If you adopt the idea that the Bible is true and that demons can fake all of God's miracles, there's no test you could possibly perform to disprove this claim.


This is unfortunate. I tried to express this to someone who is Christian. If a Christian suffering then that means that it is done for the glorification of God through Christ. In other words a suffering Christian is a sign that God is "testing them" but if someone from another religion is suffering then God is punishing that person. Similarly if a person from another religion is prosperous then that is the work of the devil misleading them but if it is a Christian then that is God blessing them. Its inconsistent and does not make sense. Or God makes the followers "bear their own crosses" in remembrance of Christ.

There has to be a more independent way of testing the veracity of Christianity then saying its true because of some personal spiritual experience or because Jesus is "Unique"



But what about the volumes of literature you talked about, which are supposed proofs of Christianity? I've read a lot of these works, and the scholarship is laughable. Take creation "science" for example. I think the poor quality of creationist literature speaks for itself. The proofs of the resurrection of Jesus are also dubious. A cursory reading of the gospel accounts of the resurrection (there are four of them) will reveal recollections that seem to contradict each other.

I am refering to literature from Ravi Zachrias, Lee Strobel's series, The case for Christ, The Real Jesus, Jeff McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" "Death of a Guru" Micael Brown etc. and other simliar apologetic literature and numerous websites like Christian Answers and Answering Islam. Interestingly enough, not all Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Bishop Shelby Spong is an intersting contrast from the others mention.


Thus, much of the literature defending the resurrection doctrine focuses on harmonizing the gospels. The basic claim is that the gospels should be read like newspapers, where different witnesses will tell stories that appear to differ simply because they're coming from different points of view. At best, this may show that the gospels are self-consistent. But this does nothing to give the gospels any more veracity than the historical claims of other religions.

I have often wondered why if Jesus had 12 disciples only a third of them have records about him, There is no Gospel of Bartholemew, Phillip, Andrew Thomas, etc. At best they are treated as "not official"



Christians will claim that "numerous" extrabiblical sources refer to Jesus as a historical figure. In reality, "numerous" means two, namely Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. Each of these Roman writers mention Jesus once, but only when talking about his followers. And if I' not mistaken, their writings are from the second century. So this simply amounts to a proof that Christianity existed in the second century. I've even heard Christians claim that we have Roman court records of Jesus' trial. That claim is patently false, no such records exist.


Similarly in the post-ressurection scriptures Acts of the Apostles, episles, etc. Paul constantly refers to the Sanhderin (Jewish court) however I asked someone who is Jewish if there is a record of Paul in the Sanhedrin (the records of the Sanhedrin are contained in the Talmud) they told me no.


Given that there are two billion Christians in the world, statistically there are going to be some smart Christians out there. The problem is that there are working with a religious scripture that contains numerous errors and illogical statements. So what you have is some very smart people working hard to make an illogical book sound reasonable. They've got very good rhetorical skills but this doesn't amount to evidence. At one point in my life I personally considered Christianity. I did a good deal of research, and even read the whole Bible. I found my own religion, Hinduism, to be far more reasonable. Hinduism has correspondance to reality. You can experience God for yourself, and you're not forced to believe in a religious scripture that contradicts what you can learn with your five senses.

Did you Know that one of the greatest Christian Apologist to ever existed C.S. Lewis was also split between Hinduism and Christianity. There are a host of reasons why I find Hinduism sketchy. I wont get in it because I have written to much as it is. At any rate I have been meaning to investigate the supposed "Contradictions in the bible" one example I have heard but dont remember reading is that there are two different accounts of how Judas died. There is a book called From "Preacher to Atheist" and in it there is a chapter that talks about the numerous "contradictions in the bible" One of these days I will look into it.



I'd be interested in having a discussion on this (start a new thread if you feel so inclined). Whatever evidence you think points to Christianity, I believe it will ultimately prove to be spurious. It seems to me that there is much more evidence that Hinduism is a true religion.


Although ideally I would love to have this indepth and engaging conversation/debate however I am academically overwhelmed with other interest. I am studying Arabic and working towards a BA with three majors and one certificate in Journalism. In addition I am trying to get an internship in Washington. So I cant devote as much time to it as I would like. However I maybe able to try and moderate a debate between this forum and a catholic forum i belong to. If your interest. Right now in my life I dont have time to read everything under the sun on Christianity and Hinduism.

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Here's a bit of a spoof ... but sometimes humor is most revealing!

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1002/bookburning.html

More seriously, book burning hasn't gone away, there are many who use "religion" to promote their agenda of expansion of a particular point of view to greater numbers in search of greater influence over a larger populace.

Personally, while I try to respect others' POV, I have a problem with anyone else's interpretation or restriction of interpretation of "HOLY" force fed ... to me, the only path is to experience "HOLY" without interpretation; I can only find this in meditation. Understanding and interpretation of the experience gained through practice is aided by study, but study follows practice, IMO, it is not the same.

Namaste,
ZN

Thanks. I was shocked to recently discover that this was actually recorded in the scriptures.

Its revealing that this satirist refrences greek philosophers like Aristotle and Plato suggesting that there works wear deemed as worthy of being destroyed. Ignoring the fact that many early Christian thinkers like St. Augustine incorporated greek philosophy into their theology.

[sanjaya]

This is true. One thing I noticed as I read over the bible again and underline everything I find interesting or important is the empahsis on what is perceived to be the Truth. Paul goes to different cultures explaining to them why Jesus is the Son of God and why the Ressurection is the truth whereas other gods dont exist or are demons. But you can go further. There are several examples of the Tribe of Israel "proving" the superiority of their God over the non-existent inferior "Idol-gods."

The research I've done agrees with what you're saying. It's interesting that Christianity acknowledges that other gods have some sort of supernatural existence, but attributes it to demonic activity. Ultimately they make an untestable claim. If a Hindu prays to God and receives blessing or is healed of some illness, or even mere spiritual contentment, it's called the work of the devil. How do you prove whether that's true or false?


In fact part of the Old testment does not deny that other gods exist but that the supreme God is the God of Israel. Later the concept evolves into strict monotheism where there are no other gods except God elohim or Hashem as commonly refered to. There is a great book on this subject called the "Evolution of God" which talks of this.

Yes, that's a good point. If you read the Babylonian creation epic, you'll find that it's similar to the Bible. Basically it's main point is that Marduk is the greatest of all gods. But for the invention of Christianity, the Jewish Bible may have been relegated to the same status as other Near Eastern faiths.


For me thats fine. If gambling lust etc is bad then who cares how you recieve that message as so long as you recieve it. However for fundamentalist Christians other religions are "false Prophets" "Wolfs in Sheep Clothing" but lets entertain these notions.

Of course. Hypothetical scenarios can teach us some interesting truths.


Suppose that all religions are false but Christianity. All other teachers are false but these religions teach the same value as christianity; love the poor, love your neigbor, but they dont affirm or they might deny the Crucifixtion historicity of the bible, John 3:16 etc.

Quite a reasonable assumption. Actually, all non-Christian religions (with the potental exception of Islam) do teach these things. Hinduism doesn't even make a comment on Biblical historicity. So this is more or less the claim that evangelical Christians are making.


Does it still matter? Well of course it does if fate of your soul is held in abeyance because of it? If the fate your eternal soul is determined by an article of religious belief such as monotheism or the Historicty of Jesus then I guess it matters.

But if it mattered so much why would not God come down here or do something more powerful to show with out a shadow of a doubt that Christianity is true and absolute. If I was God and compassion was one of my qualities why would I only allow 1/3 of the world's population attain heaven and the rest suffer eternal hell? If there was only one true path to God as God I would ensure that there is no confusion and eliminate all other religions. But lets face it that does not happen. If as God this was important to me that people follow only one "Straight and narrow path" (read religion) Overnight I would have all the the non true religious institutions be destroyed. Or do something to that magnitutude rather than rely simply on human beings to convince each other of the true religion.

Sorry to sound extreme.

Not at all. Evangelical Christianity is this mercilessly extreme. Christians would probably cite the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and state that the "testimony" of scripture is more poweful and convincing than any sort of supernatural act. This, I feel, is a cop out. The Bible doesn't contain anything that I would expect to find in a divinely inspired text. Here too Christians have an answer. They will say that we are all tainted by original sin, and are unable to see the truth of the Bible except by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's really a perfect system. If you believe, it's because you were convinced by God. If you don't believe, it's because God prevents you from seeing the truths of the Bible.


That reminds me of another saying attributed to the Buddha






Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.


Interstingly enough through an internet search i come to discover that this sayings is attributed incorrectly. It is not in the pali Cannon but as one internet user posted is an incorrect translation a more precise translation would render the reading;


Kalamas in Anguttura Nikaya 3:65 - "...don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them."



sorry for the digression i just thought it was interesting.

Thanks for clarifying the Buddha's saying.