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Eastern Mind
09 January 2010, 08:08 AM
Vannakkam all: Prostrations to Lord Vinayaka!

I was reflecting on the discussion about books that was had the other day. It lead me to the more generalised topic of how some of the old adages have lost some their validity today, and we should be applying more wisdom. No one continued to argue with me when I said a pornography book shouldn't be treated with the respect of placing it to one's head if it is dropped. The Gita still should be.The times have changed so that there is more adharma around us now than in olden days.

Times are changing and I think we need to adjust with the times. Another old adage is to 'obey your elders'. At one time I believe this was probably true, especially in the east. Elders were wiser perhaps. But certainly it isn't a hard and fast rule today. What if the elder says, "Boy, let's go get drunk together and find us a couple of prostitutes." Clearly the young man should toss the adage here and now.

So my proposal for the new adage would be "Obey your elders, provided they are wise elders"

No wonder today's youth have problems. Some unwise elders also try to maintain this status quo on their kids."I'm your Mother, you have to obey me!"

But the problem arises with how do we make this transition?

I welcome all ideas. Lets take apart and critique some adages, see it they are applicable today or not.

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
10 January 2010, 11:44 AM
Hi EM
This is intersting, I have also wondered if there is any value in following one's elders in today's modern age. Here are few ideas which arise:

1) Does not the elder hand-over some authority now that School and University play a much longer role in the life of the majority of young people? My parents left school before the reached 16, an age where I feel guidance from one's elders may be still sought and found beneficial. Perahps peers, internet and teaching educaitons are now looked on for guidance and respect.

2) Sex and pronography are powerless if they do not elicit desire. Is it not desire (or correctly focused desire) which needs to be addressed in your example of getting drunk or seeking prostitution?

Answers in life were probably sought from obeying one's elders, whereas today the resource base for guidance and answers has expanded but does that imply less respect for one's elders? I don't think so.

Eastern Mind
10 January 2010, 12:09 PM
Snip: My example was perhaps a poor one, exaggerated to make a point. That would be quite unusual indeed. Lets suppose instead that your parents are non-vegetarian, and you discover vegetarianism, and think its for you. Should you still listen to your elders?

Once we hit adult age, we have no real obligation to listen to our parents about everything. Even by law, we become legally responsible for our own actions.

Or.. lets look at these forums. some of the silliest comments IMHO, come from some of the eldest, whilst some beautiful wisdom comes from some of the youngest.

Aum Namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
10 January 2010, 12:45 PM
Once we hit adult age, we have no real obligation to listen to our parents about everything. Even by law, we become legally responsible for our own actions.

I partially agree with you on this, which shows that even though we are Hindus, we still hold Western views on this. Very few Indian Hindus would ever say that. Parents are to be obeyed for as long as they are alive (a teaching which is also found in the Bible).

But what happens if the parents are abusive? Do you still have to obey them? Is it wrong to cut off all ties to them as soon as you reach adulthood?

Many divorces amongst Malaysian Hindus occur because of interfering in-laws.

sanjaya
10 January 2010, 02:15 PM
EM, you bring up some good points. Personally I tend to subscribe to the "obey your elders" philosophy. Partly this is because I've tried doing things my way in the past, only to learn that my parents were right all along. Actually this is what brought me back to Hinduism.

That said, what do you do if your parents, or other elders, are unwise? Or, as Scott brought up, what if they're abusive? Indeed, some of the most idiotic and blatently immoral things I've heard in my life came from the mouths of old people. Perhaps we do need to add the provision that people should obey their elders, provided that they are wise. But this begs the question of how wisdom is defined. Clearly we need some objective standard of wisdom and foolishness. I think that ultimately, this standard has to come from God. We can look to Hindu Scriptures, to the teachings of our various gurus and saints, and to logic. Then we can obey our elders to the extent that their teachings agree with this objective standard. I know a lot of Hindus these days say that "there is no truth" and reject the idea of absolute morality altogether. Perhaps this is an overreaction to the rigidity of the West. Without somesort of objective standard of right and wrong, I'm not quite sure how we can properly judge all of the old addages.

sanjaya
10 January 2010, 02:24 PM
Also, just a random aside concerning vegetarianism. Personally I believe in living a vegetarian lifestyle so as to avoid needlessly killing animals. That said, I can imagine how we can run into some difficult issues. For example, consider Shirdi Sai Baba. Many people, including myself, consider him to be an avatar of God. However, he lived like a Muslim, and therefore (if I remember correctly), he ate meat. Do we ignore the fact that he did so many miracles and gave many spiritual teachings because of this? Or consider EM's example of a person from a meat-eating family who discovers vegetarianism. If his parents are Christian fundamentalists who don't want their children getting into "Eastern stuff" (or maybe they just have a strong affinity for meat), do we ask this person to cause family disunity for the sake of vegetarianism? This would make us no better than a missionary.

One solution I see is to consider that all people have different dharma, and the dharma of some may not be vegetarianism. Some here may feel that this doesn't adequately address the problem, though. I don't have any clear answers here, so I'd be interested to see what others think.

Jivattatva
10 January 2010, 03:26 PM
Vannakkam all: Prostrations to Lord Vinayaka!

I was reflecting on the discussion about books that was had the other day. It lead me to the more generalised topic of how some of the old adages have lost some their validity today, and we should be applying more wisdom. No one continued to argue with me when I said a pornography book shouldn't be treated with the respect of placing it to one's head if it is dropped. The Gita still should be.The times have changed so that there is more adharma around us now than in olden days.

Times are changing and I think we need to adjust with the times. Another old adage is to 'obey your elders'. At one time I believe this was probably true, especially in the east. Elders were wiser perhaps. But certainly it isn't a hard and fast rule today. What if the elder says, "Boy, let's go get drunk together and find us a couple of prostitutes." Clearly the young man should toss the adage here and now.

So my proposal for the new adage would be "Obey your elders, provided they are wise elders"

No wonder today's youth have problems. Some unwise elders also try to maintain this status quo on their kids."I'm your Mother, you have to obey me!"

But the problem arises with how do we make this transition?

I welcome all ideas. Lets take apart and critique some adages, see it they are applicable today or not.

Aum Namasivaya



The psyche and disposition of someone who grew up in the culture of the west is definitely different from one who grew up in the east.

Individualism is one of the fibers of the western culture, so it's normal to see children move out of their parents home when they turn 18. In the east, family connection is a bond which strengthens the society.

As someone who grew up in Asia, I can see, from my point of view, advantages and disadvantages in both systems.

Still I would think that strong family connection makes for a better society.

So that follows that I think, its helpful to consult with your elders, from time to time. Two heads are better than one!

This is not to say that you have to turn off your decision making faculties or not to make assessment of what could be right and wrong for you or let others subjugate your free will.


Im sorry to say that I take exception to the sentence below from your post Eastern Mind, you said:

No wonder today's youth have problems. Some unwise elders also try to maintain this status quo on their kids."I'm your Mother, you have to obey me!"


I think that sentence is not very smart. And I can see that you are coming from someone who maybe was born and grew up in a western culture.

Youth have problems because they create their own problems (don't we all take responsibility for our own individual karma?)

If the parent is giving a bad advice, it's not that the practice of asking elders for advice or the practice of following their order is not good, but what is wrong is attributable to human nature eg. the parent is a bad parent.

Afterall, even a young person who does not seek his/her parents advice, can still go into all sorts of trouble himself. The culprit is the human nature, IMO.

Ganeshprasad
10 January 2010, 04:00 PM
Pranam all
Jai Ganesh Jai Ganesh Deva, Mata Jena Parvati Ne Pita Shankar Deva
  
 
I don’t know if the question is parents in particular or elders in general.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
 
If it is parents then we are duty bound to obey as scott ji has inferred.
Matru devoBhava, Pitru devoBhava.
off course when faced with Dharma conflict then there should be proper discrimination and act accordingly. My father use to say after certain age one should treat their children as friends, so there is responsibility on elders as well. But to a mother, a child even if middle-aged will always remain a child. We can never repay our dues to them.

Two incidence come to mind one from Mahabharat and other from Ramayan
Pandavas obeyed the words of mother Kunti, unknowing she had asked the brother to share equally what they had brought with them.

Bharat refused the kingdom although Kaikai wished it.
 
  
Respect is in our language, I would address any individual even if stranger with appropriate words. Until some one gives you a cause to reject an action, the old adage of respecting an elder in my opinion should not be questioned. Once we start doing it is slippery slop and we soon loose touch with our roots.
 
 
I had a great cultural shock when I came to west but that’s another story. In India even now the elders behave as elders should, unfortunately this will change in due course of time as today’s youth, in emulating the west loose touch with their tradition.
 
 
Although a lot of elders in west are loosing their grip with dharma unfortunately a lot more today’s youth are fast loosing any thing to do with dharma, caught between two cultures, one offers instant pleasures in the form of wine women and song and the other mostly due to lack of knowledge or time or both, says do as I tell you because they did what their elders told them.

So my question would be, what should elders do to regain their respect ?
 
 
Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
10 January 2010, 04:33 PM
Vanakkam all: Thanks for the interesting discussion. I had a thought that perhaps the original adage 'respect your elders' referred to respect your elders in wisdom, not just elders in chronological age. I was referring to mostly parents in the original post.

I certainly agree in principle, and in general to the adage. I was lucky to have had dharmic parents for 99% of the facets of life, maybe even 100. Both are deceased now, but I still hold them in the highest esteem.

I think its more a matter of not seeing it as an absolute, for me. In the western faiths there are absolutes ... laws never ever to be broken. In the east there is more grey. As Jivatatva has correctly pointed out, there are vast differences. But as western influences infiltrate India more and more, maybe Indian people can learn more from our western mistakes. There has been a huge breakdown in family structure over here, leading to all kinds of problems: loneliness and personal finances to mention but two. Too bad Indians don't notice this more. Of course, some do.

Sanjaya: Finding some objective standard of wisdom? Yes, that's kind of tricky. I still use whats called 'common sense'. This is the elders in the west version of 'wisdom' in the east.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
10 January 2010, 06:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

A good conversation above. If I may let me offer one view...
the taittirīya upaniṣad (sikṣā vallī, 11.1 śloka) informs us of the following:

mātṛdevo bhava |
pitṛdevo bhava |
ācāryadevo bhava |
atithi devo bhava |

mātṛdevo is mātṛ + devo or deva . mātṛ¹ is mother ; it is also a 'knower' + deva we know as divine or heavenly in nature from the root word div ( to shine, be bright, glow); bhava is to come into existence, origin.
Hence mātṛdevo bhava is the Divine comes into existence/shines/glows through mother i.e. mother
is deva
pitṛdevo - is 'father is deva' ; pitṛ as a noun is also another name of bṛhas-pati , varuṇa , prajā-pati , and also of heaven or the sky.

Hence the Divine comes into existence/shines/glows through father.
ācāryadevo - is ācārya is deva ; and ācārya is a spiritual guide or teacher; one who teaches ācāra¹.

Hence the Divine comes into existence/shines/glows through the spiritual guide, the ācārya.
atithi devo - (my favorite :) ) , as this word is from a+tithi . a= not or no + tithi which is a lunar day; atithi then means 'one that has no fixed day' - and this is called an unannounced guest.

A guest that is entitled to one's hospitality unannounced.
We can see the level of repect/importance given to mother, father, the teacher and the guest. Yet I have read above 'what if' ... What if there is questionable behavior of the one's giving instruction or direction? The taittirīya upaniṣad (sikṣā vallī, 11.4 to 11.6 ) informs us then,

if there is any doubt regarding any deed, any doubt regarding conduct you should behave on such occasion as the brahmins do , who may happen to be available and who are able deliberators, who are balance, who need no direction from others, who are not harsh and who live righteousness.

This is the guidence we are given...

praṇām

words

mātṛ or matri is also ( in plural case ) as the Divine Mothers -
sometimes counted as 7 in number: brāhmī or brahmāṇī , māheśvarī , kaumārī , vaiṣṇavī , vārāhī , indrāṇī or aindrī or māhendrī , cāmuṇḍā
sometimes 8 : brāhmi , māheśvarī , kaumārī , vaiṣṇavī , vārāhī , raudrī , carma-muṇḍā , kāla-saṃkarṣiṇī
sometimes 9: brahmāṇī , vaiṣṇavī , raudrī , vārāhī , nārasiṃhikā , kaumārī , māhendrī , cāmuṇḍā , caṇḍikā
sometimes 16:gaurī , padmā , śacī , medhā , sāvitrī , vijayā , jayā , deva-senā , sva-dhā , svāhā , śānti , puṣṭi , dhṛti , tuṣṭi , ātma-devatā and kula-devatā ;
Note that ācāra in ācārya is conduct, manner, proper behavior

satay
10 January 2010, 06:42 PM
namaskar,
Interesting topic. Here are my 2 cents.

In my opinion, One's parents must be repsected without a question. No matter if the parent has their shortcomings. Extending this logic to people who are not your parents but elders, I think they should be respected purely based on their age.

The difference between elders and parents for me is that I will kindly detatch myself from the elders that do not seem wise but will not disrespect them verbally (though I might have done this on HDF unknowingly).

In the case where parents seem wrong, I will accpet their seemingly wrong decision without question, even if it is a life or death decision. This is the dharma of the son in my opinion. Respect and obey your parents without a question. There is no wiggle room for me. The obedience and respect should be in absolute terms.

I like Ganesh Prasad had a huge cultural shock related to this topic when I first came here in Canada. But like GP said, that's a story for another time.

ps: You may not agree with my opinion.

Eastern Mind
10 January 2010, 07:33 PM
The taittirīya upaniṣad (sikṣā vallī, 11.4 to 11.6 ) informs us then,

if there is any doubt regarding any deed, any doubt regarding conduct you should behave on such occasion as the brahmins do , who may happen to be available and who are able deliberators, who are balance, who need no direction from others, who are not harsh and who live righteousness.

This is the guidence we are given...

praṇām



Yajvan: Interesting that the Upanishads address the problem directly.

Satay: I think there is a difference between respecting and obeying. You can still respect someone a lot without obeying their every command. When my mother was hospitalised in her later years with Alzheimers, she'd ask me to "Get her out of this place!" Obviously, I could just wait, and the topic would change.

But we differ on the absolutism you stated in obeying your father. I wouldn't kill another human being if my father told me too. I know its pretty far out hypothetically, but from your absolutism, it seems you would.

This is still interesting. Some of us, including myself, sort of adopted Gurus as spiritual Fathers.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
10 January 2010, 08:13 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM,


This is still interesting. Some of us, including myself, sort of adopted Gurus as spiritual Fathers. Aum Namasivaya

This is the pickle as I see it...there is no questioning the guru, but it is okay to offer our doubts for resolution.

Same with father - we can have doubts, but this should not bring dis-respect.


And you offer some hypotheticals in some of your posts - for me these are easy to figure out... what is not easy are the slightly off center ( off dharma) requests that erodes behavior over time. When posed with a hypothetical directive ' jump off the bridge' - this is easy to say no, this does not make sense. But to the directive that is less obtuse more ~gray zone ~ i.e. no need to help that person, no need to offer food to this person - these slightly off-dharma injunctions over time brings erosion. These are the tougher items to obey as I see it.

Yet if it came from the guru, then what to do? There is a story in the Mahābhārata of Mother Ganga having children, the father is King Santanu.
The couple had 8 children ( as per the vasu-s agreement with Ganga). Yet each time one was born Ganga would take the babe to the river, throw the new babe in and say 'This is for thy good'. Since they ( these vasu-s, deva-s) were born on earth, they did not want to stay a minute longer then needed so Ganga did the honors, knowing full well the origin of these babes 'divine'.
The King was beside himself, yet was tied by his agreement to Ganga that he could not act without the liability of losing his lovely wife. That is he agreed to never question Her actions.

Yet when they got to their 8th child, Santanu could not take it any more and said ' Kill it not!' Why do you kill your own children! Your sins are great!' As you can tell that broke the contract with Ganga. On that note Ganga tells the King who she really is,( the Divine) and the agreement she had with the 8 vasu-s.


Can this not occur with a master of infinite wisdom? A fully realised being, an exponent of the Divine that one would be so lucky to have as a teacher. What then when an instruction is given to the student? Now what to do? You see 'babies' (actions) being thrown in the river ( beyond dharma rules) , but the master sees otherwise.

How does one act? What does one do when given an instruction by the master where the student does not see the wisdom in the request?

This is the pickle...devotion, unwavering discipline, perfect alignment to the wise , unquestioning.


praṇām

devotee
10 January 2010, 10:15 PM
Namaste EM,

You bring interesting things into discussion. The basis of this discussion is too hypothetical. When we talk of respecting all books , you start talking of the pornographic materials. Now, in the matter of obeying parents, you are bringing in the notion that they might ask their own children joining for a drink & going to prostitutes !

Rules are not for exceptions. How many such parents have we seen who would ask their children to go to a brothel together to have sex with a prostitute ?

Even the parents who drink, normally would never ask their children to fall into the habit of drinking. Even the parents who go the prostitutes would not like their children to visit them. This is my perception.

I would say that if a parents ask their children to do something akin to what you say the children should not obey them. Now, having said that, would you like to make a rule that it is ok not to obey our parents "when children feel that parents are giving wrong advice" ? I think, if we start making rules like that we will throw our children to doom !

We can't take extreme exceptional situations & make a rule like this.

OM

Eastern Mind
10 January 2010, 10:46 PM
Namaste Devotee: I think I understand your trouble with the extreme hypotheticals. They are not really my intention here. I will try to refrain from using such extremes in the future. I just find that in order to show any grey at all, sometimes an extreme might be necessary. But perhaps you are correct and I am wrong. Perhaps it isn't necessary. I know for example, if I was addressing you personally, it wouldn't be necessary, as you come along with a whole lot of common sense. You already see and accept the grey areas in such morality issues.

I remember parents who were extremely anti-Ritalin, the overprescribed controversial drug used to battle ADHD. So for them I'd compare insulin to diabetes, or morphine to pain, just to illustrate that there might be a possibility that Ritalin could be useful...that maybe they shouldn't just discard its use quite so quickly and reactively with powerful statements like, "There's no way I'm letting my kid take drugs."

Besides all that, I'm just trying to stimulate discussion here on HDF. Sometimes it seems we run out of things to discuss, so I try to come up with some new topic. Otherwise it becomes endless reiteration. I hope you understand this aspect.

As you know there is intolerance or strong feelings here. Some would say there is only one truly valid translation of the Gitas, for example. I like to think our Dear Sanatana Dharma is not so rigid as to have hard and fast adages and rules that can never be broken under any circumstance at all. That's all. Really nothing more than that. Certainly there are some that are that way for me such as stealing and adultery, but then there is that whole group of greys. But of course other opinions vary, as we've seen on this discussion.

No I would never advise that children should not obey their parents. As Sanjaya pointed out, there is many a time where later in life he discovered his parents were right. This was true for me too. We do get some wisdom as we age. Only after becoming a parent did I appreciate the tough job my own parents had, raising brats like me, for instance.

I can only remember once not disclosing the whole truth about a student to their parent. It was to protect the child from physical abuse. Although I didn't respect those parents, I certainly couldn't advise the kid to.


Aum Namasivaya

devotee
11 January 2010, 01:15 AM
Namaste EM,

Your raising such issues here is well appreciated. :)

Though I stated that Rules are not for exceptions but as you pointed out exceptions do exist. And it is better to know what one should do in such situations. In fact, there are worse situations sometimes. I will tell you an incident :

Some 10-15 years back I had a maidservant working for my family. She was good at work ... may be in her teens still. One night she came to my home asking for shelter for the night. We asked what happened ... as keeping a girl like this at night can be questionable in the eyes of society & the law. She told me that her parents wanted her to "marry" an old man who was giving her parents a handsome amount in lieu. Now that was a big shock to all of us. It was like a case of selling the daughter by her own parents !

So, can we say that the girl took a wrong decision by running away from home & not obeying her parents ? I would say, "No" ! A parent must also behave like a parent to be respected & obeyed.

In Hinduism the parents acquire a status only next to God. They are literally worshipped. For a Hindu wife, her husband is no less than her God (if we consider the scriptures) but I would not expect any wife to blindly obey her husband if he is not of good character & sound mind. And IMHO, this applies to all relations.

OM

sanjaya
11 January 2010, 02:29 AM
In Hinduism the parents acquire a status only next to God. They are literally worshipped. For a Hindu wife, her husband is no less than her God (if we consider the scriptures) but I would not expect any wife to blindly obey her husband if he is not of good character & sound mind. And IMHO, this applies to all relations.

Many Hindus would even go so far as to say that to the extent that a heirarchy exists, the parents are above God. But unlike human parents, it's impossible for God to ever be of bad character or unsound mind. I wonder if the parent's status as God to his children is intrinsic, or based on the parent behaving in a way that befits his position.

Ganeshprasad
11 January 2010, 09:56 AM
Pranam Sanjay


Many Hindus would even go so far as to say that to the extent that a heirarchy exists, the parents are above God.

So true for some, they ask who has seen God ? For them, the unconditional love that permeates especially from mother is unsurpassed.

Sankracharya is grand example of obedient to his mother, he would not take Sanyas without her blessing, that shows how important this relation is.

Says the manu Smriti (ii. 45):
"From the point of view of reverence due,
a teacher is ten fold superior to a mere lecturer,
a father a hundredfold to a teacher, and a
mother a thousandfold to a father."


Yet I was listening to Rameshbhai Oza the other day when he remarked how absolutely abhorring it is that parents seeks abortion this day especially the mother who is willing participant. Such is the time we live in.
 
 



But unlike human parents, it's impossible for God to ever be of bad character or unsound mind. I wonder if the parent's status as God to his children is intrinsic, or based on the parent behaving in a way that befits his position.

Such a position is sacred as good as god, we have to appreciate the Janani the one who gives birth, only our Karma would have determined our circumstances including that of the behaviour of parents.
If we can not appreciate immediate parents how are we to search and love the supreme who is so elusive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Xav8MhrNc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Xav8MhrNc)
This bhajan sends shiver down the spine every time. All together a beautiful meaning but line two and the last speaks volume for the ongoing discussion.

Jai Shree Krishna

satay
11 January 2010, 12:35 PM
namaskar,


Many Hindus would even go so far as to say that to the extent that a heirarchy exists, the parents are above God. But unlike human parents, it's impossible for God to ever be of bad character or unsound mind. I wonder if the parent's status as God to his children is intrinsic, or based on the parent behaving in a way that befits his position.

For me parents are living God. If given a choice of liberation or taking birth as a child of the same parents, I will choose again and again my parents over liberation.

Yes, some might say I am stuck in a some sort of emotional twilight zone...

Eastern Mind
11 January 2010, 12:42 PM
namaskar,


Yes, some might say I am stuck in a some sort of emotional twilight zone...

This made me laugh. Let's vote on the type of emotional twilight zone, shall we?
a) plain old stupor
b) naive
c) too blissed to recognise emotion
d) on drugs
e) stuck in a nostalgic past
f) all of the above

Aum

satay
11 January 2010, 12:45 PM
namaste EM,

I see your point. However, I have never experienced situations where my parent was a drunkard, abusive, under alzheimers or offered to take me to a prostitute. I am seem to be judging all parents in the light of my own parents.

I don't think 'normal people' like you and me and our parents are unreasonable. For example, I can't think of any reason that my father would ask me to kill another man. If it was to protect the family, especially my mother, I will not hesitate even for a second.

What I am trying to say with the abosultism is that if we don't accept the authority of our parents in this manner, it opens up all kinds of ifs and buts and all the wrong doors.

I understand your point of view though. My opinion might be more 'cultural' and is based on my own personal experience than anything to do with hinduism or sastra.



Satay: I think there is a difference between respecting and obeying. You can still respect someone a lot without obeying their every command. When my mother was hospitalised in her later years with Alzheimers, she'd ask me to "Get her out of this place!" Obviously, I could just wait, and the topic would change.

But we differ on the absolutism you stated in obeying your father. I wouldn't kill another human being if my father told me too. I know its pretty far out hypothetically, but from your absolutism, it seems you would.

This is still interesting. Some of us, including myself, sort of adopted Gurus as spiritual Fathers.

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
11 January 2010, 12:47 PM
Snip: My example was perhaps a poor one, exaggerated to make a point. That would be quite unusual indeed. Lets suppose instead that your parents are non-vegetarian, and you discover vegetarianism, and think its for you. Should you still listen to your elders?


Namaste Eastern Mind,
I was perhaps over philosophical, you questions made me think :)

Yes, I think one should listen to one's elders and follow their example whilst living dependently on them. The problem comes when one doesn't know how to listen or cannot live independently. In those cases I assume one needs to find strength from another source whilst the child we love learns the hard way or the elders insist on behaviour we would better live without.

Tricky question! :)

satay
11 January 2010, 12:52 PM
I would have to choose F but then again I have never taken 'drugs' so it would have to be b).

:)


This made me laugh. Let's vote on the type of emotional twilight zone, shall we?
a) plain old stupor
b) naive
c) too blissed to recognise emotion
d) on drugs
e) stuck in a nostalgic past
f) all of the above

Aum