Spare the rod, spoil the child

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam all:

Here is another adage for discussion. Here is a fairly recent article on it:

http://www.merinews.com/article/no-corporal-punishment-india-needs-social-movement/15766429.shtml

World wide, the decline of corporal punishment has accelerated. I am wondering at what stage its at in India or Malaysia now. Here in Canada it was officially abolished by law in the whole country some time back. Ironically, America,(particularly in the Bible Belt states) and of course many Islamic nations are the worst offenders.

Clearly, the custom doesn't follow any ahimsa guidelines. I have seen a major shift in my lifetime. I can only remember my father spanking me once as a youngster, although the threat was there. It was mostly the same for grade school. I never got the strap, but some fellow classmates did. There were major attitude differences between principals as well. Some used it liberally, others not at all. I think caning is more brutal than strapping. it seems the bruises would last longer.

As a teacher, in my first two schools in the early 80s I also strapped kids. Three, in fact, and I remember each one. It was still the status quo, and I took the advice of the principal. After the last time in about 1984, I knew it was my last one. The cruelty factor had always been with me so I felt guilty anyway. But the bottom line was that it simply didn't work as a behaviour modification tool.

So we are on the right track, in my opinion, but still have a long ways to go. There was a story out of Delhi last spring that brought it to light. Call it western journalist sensationalism if you wish, but still a child died. She was forced to stand outside in the heat and suffered heatstroke, later leading to her death.

I guess the real question is what we can do to accelerate the change even more.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Here in the United States the situation is somewhat similar. Corporal punishment is now pretty much out of fashion. Evangelical Christians still do it and preach that it ought to be used in disciplining children, but beating kids in public schools and other public areas is almost unheard of. Not sure how to accelerate the process though. There will always be this group of people who believe in the Bible's statement "whoever spares the rod hates his son" (that's where the addage in the title comes from). These people believe that by hitting their kids, they're instilling positive traits. All we can do is point to the violence in Western culture to show that this isn't true. The problem even here is that the same people who beat their kids also support conservative America's gun mania and obsession with engaging in war and other violence. The evangelical Christian subculture is a culture that loves violence, and I don't know how to crack that nut.

[Eastern Mind]

Sanjaya: Yes, thanks.

I am curious to the incidence in India. I know my Sri Lankan friends, especially the elder ones, talk of being beaten with canes at school. The schools were Catholic primarily, and heavily influenced by that nutcase McAuley. So you could argue that the had nothing at all to do with Hinduism, just a facet of British or European mentality imported into Sri Lanka. None of my friends are old enough or have any memories of pre-British times. Of course the whole concept of schooling earlier would have been much different with home and school being mostly the same place with the exception of Gurukulams.

But the Sri Lankan immigrants changed their ways when they got over here, at about the same rate as my western culture did. 25 years ago I saw Tamils pulling their kids around by their ears. Now I don't see that.

Perhaps you could do me a favor and ask your father about his school days back in India. He'd know more, I'm sure. I'm wondering if its still a prevalent belief.

We had absolutely brutal schools called residential schools here in Canada and in the US where the "good" Fathers and Nuns pulled native American kids off their reservations into what were called residential schools to educate the heathens. Still we have apologies and lawsuits going on over that stuff. My own father spoke of the dreaded 'cat o' nine' tails.


Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

Keeping the facts for the USA in perspective. Capital punishment in the USA is infrequently exercised - so say the facts:

the average has been about one execution for about every 700 murders committed or 0.142%
There has been 1,191 executions in the last 34 years = ~ 35 executions per year
35 executions divided by the U.S.A. population of 307 million = 0.000011% What the USA struggles with...
The 'issue' over the death penalty centers around four issues:

Is it is morally correct to kill
Is it effective - that is, does the death penalty serve as a deterrent
Is it applied fairly across racial, social, and economic classes
Is it irrevocable when new evidence presents itself. Since 1976, 112 prisoners have been released due to new info, etc.Also note the USA is a nation of states. Each one gets to decide ( legislate ) their laws. 32% of the states have no capital punishment.


Crime overall is down 16% in the last 30 years - so says the Dept of Justice statistics. Are there bad things still occuring? Sure. Yet the USA is improving.


Now what is up? The news. It is on 24 hrs a day 7 days a week - and people hear more and more 'bad' vs. 'good'.

source:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States)

[devotee]

Namaste EM,

Using rod to teach a child was prevalent in my school days. I myself was beaten a few times by my teachers. :)

However, the situation is now changing. The parents & Govt take any incidence of beating a child in school seriously. There have been cases when children have died due to harsh punishments & it has provoked strong sentiments against corporal punishment. These days, if you are a teacher in India & want to beat a child to correct him, you can do it only at your own perils ... you can lose your job, you can be manhandled by angry crowd, you can be a hated figure in media & of course, you can be arrested & prosecuted as per law of the land.

OM

[saidevo]

namaste.

I am of course strongly opposed to the use of the rod or strap at school but then I favour the occasional use of rod and that only by the parent at home when their son/daughter does something unbearably naughty as a matter of habit or with the knowledge that what they are doing is wrong.

A subhAShita in the ChANakya NIti says, "Indulge a child for the first five years of his life, for the next ten years deal firmly with him. Once the child is sixteen, treat him as a friend."

The Hindu practice of worshipping Ganesha--the dorbiH karaNam--when used with discretion and limit, could be a great way of reformation for an errant child.

[sanjaya]

Perhaps you could do me a favor and ask your father about his school days back in India. He'd know more, I'm sure. I'm wondering if its still a prevalent belief.

I've actually asked him about this in the past. It seems that in his school, corporal punishment wasn't the usual method of discipline. Usually a teacher would simply throw a piece of chalk at a disruptive student, or make him lean against a corner with the legs bent. But then, my dad didn't go to a Catholic school until high school, so maybe this explains the low frequency of corporal punishment.


I am of course strongly opposed to the use of the rod or strap at school but then I favour the occasional use of rod and that only by the parent at home when their son/daughter does something unbearably naughty as a matter of habit or with the knowledge that what they are doing is wrong.

If I may inquire further, what sort of behavior would we say is unbearably naughty and worthy of beating? Although I'm against corporal punishment, I admit that I've seen behavior from some children which even I sometimes feel could be easily remedied by the rod. That said, perhaps children only get to this point when parents fail to exercise other disciplinary measures from an early age.

Not being a parent, I'm probably straying into waters where I ought not to tread.

[saidevo]

namaste Sanjaya.



If I may inquire further, what sort of behavior would we say is unbearably naughty and worthy of beating? Although I'm against corporal punishment, I admit that I've seen behavior from some children which even I sometimes feel could be easily remedied by the rod. That said, perhaps children only get to this point when parents fail to exercise other disciplinary measures from an early age.

Not being a parent, I'm probably straying into waters where I ought not to tread.

What constitutes behaviour that is worthy of corporal punishment is subjective and depends largely on family traditions. A large number of Hindu families these days are very liberal (they call it progressive) and the children take after the habits of their parents whose daily activities include very little if any of the religion.

Since the child is to be treated with independence and respect once he/she attains sixteen years of age, a prudent parent would plan about the dharmic education of the child right from its infant days.

[rahulg]

I hope I can share my experiences here, although I am a little hesitant due to the nature of those experiences. I wonder if others can even relate to this. Anyway, in a nutshell, I went to school in India, a private school which also claimed to be Hindu. Yet they were more like Catholic schools we hear about, so much so their punishments were more like physical abuse you get in prison. One student was literally 'hung' on the wall, like a painting. Many students were not just disciplined but humiliated in ways you can't even imagine, like removing their clothes etc.

Worst of all, parents were okay with this, rationalizing that their children needed this. Curiously, even students who were punished started justifying the teachers' actions! In all, it was one sadomasochistic ritual that went on in my school, and I can't believe I am still a balanced individual today; maybe, it's God's grace.

Considering my experiences, therefore, I'd be against ANY form of punishment for anyone, whether it's in school or even outside of it such as politics, society etc. No punishment whatsoever. Even the worst criminals don't deserve it, because I know what it's like...the shame more than the pain, if you know what I mean.

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam Devotee, Saidevo, Sanjaya:

Devotee: That is good news indeed. Amazing how only a few short years ago, if you beat an adult it was assault, but if you beat kid it was okay.

Sanjaya: Now that is interesting. I wonder if there indeed was a significant difference between the Christian schools and the Hindu or public ones. The use of 'time out' is the most common method today in schools here. I'd place kids in the hallway, and then once the class was working, I'd go out and have a logical friendly discussion with them about other's rights not to be disturbed or something depending on circumstance. Usually that worked really well. It was also amazing how well a well-though out seating plan for students helped.

I must admit, though, that I spanked my own kids sometimes when they were young and misbehaving. Usually it was when I was incredibly tired or stressed. I know it was wrong, and have done some penance to atone, but probably still have the karma. I don't think either of my 2 youngest got it though.

Saidevo: Now I can't think of any reason whatsoever to beat a child. But you are entitled to your opinion. Hopefully people can think this over really well before committing assault.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam All

In my school back in Africa it was mere threat of cane was a reason for discipline, it was hardly ever used although some teacher took upon them self to pinch the side which was annoying. Ironically it was the headmasters black book that was dreaded more.
at home it was mother who instil fear of that gentle giant who never laid a finger on us, father was of the opinion that hitting a child was akin to making them like animals which he told me when I was entrusted to discipline my young nieces and nephews.
Love and Dharma is the most important ingredient in a Childs life to make them a proper human.
Today child is tomorrows future to quote the famous cliché
What impression they have in childhood remain for life. I see myself in some of the traits my nieces’ behaviour in adult hood.

On a lighter not just few days past, my grand niece who is only two and half years old got hold of my finger and took me to stairs while we were playing and told me to sit on it and she went back to the room, I could not understand why. After a while I went back in and asked why she made me sit on the stairs and left me by my self? She said something I could not make out, so I asked my niece what‘s going on and she explain that in her nursery they have a naughty chair for timeout. So I asked the two year old what was my crime? She said I hit her dolly. off course we were only playing school and she was the teacher.

I understood my fathers words how we become animals.

Sad to report in India my relative informs me how the children are treated by teachers unfortunately the parents accepts it as necessary discipline.

Jai Shree Krishna

[eriko]

Corporal punishment has been abolished by law in schools in India. Though it is another matter that it is mainly the private schools that follow it. Ther are news now and then about poor children being beaten up by the govt. school teachers.

Rahul: That must have been hard. I think it is the british effect, and does not have anything to do with Hindu Dharma.

[rahulg]

Corporal punishment has been abolished by law in schools in India. Though it is another matter that it is mainly the private schools that follow it. Ther are news now and then about poor children being beaten up by the govt. school teachers.

Rahul: That must have been hard. I think it is the british effect, and does not have anything to do with Hindu Dharma.

Thanks for understanding. I also think it's the British effect, although I am not sure why people in India or anywhere else must follow these things when they're clearly wrong. It doesn't require education or knowledge to realize that such barbarism is wrong...basic decency is enough.

So even if the propaganda factor is true, one wonders why any civilized human being would so much as consider such punishments to begin with. Maybe, it's got to do with the individual concerned and nothing to do with nation, religion etc.

I don't know...I am just speculating, because frankly, the whole thing is so bizarre that I can't even think of a logical explanation for any of this.

[Eastern Mind]

rahulg: I am sorry as well that this happened to you. I do believe it came from British classism, and in part the western superiority complex of Christianity. The native schools here suffered as much and more (i.e. - sexual abuse too) from the Christian missionaries. Maybe one day there will be lawsuits in India as well, as there is here. There have been several several class-action lawsuits against the Catholic Church. But at least we Hindus believe in the law of karma.

I'm guessing that pre-European days were different in India, but I am not sure. I doubt that the BG or Vedas mention anything about corporal punishment. I do know the Tirukkural stood against it.

I find that the old guard dies off, and many of their bizarre (as you said) practises go with them. The only place I've read of lately that is actually worsening is in the Malayasian prison system where caning is on a dramatic increase. I think we can thank Islamisation for that one. Of course its also very brutal in war zones, where the moto is 'anything goes'.

I appreciate your sharing this. If you don't mind saying, how long ago was your experience and in which state?

Aum Namasivaya

[ScottMalaysia]

Corporal punishment in New Zealand schools was made illegal in the 1980's, I think. In 2007, a bill was passed that made it illegal for parents to spank their children, although this bill has come under a lot of controversy and a lot of people have petitioned for a referendum.

In Malaysia, though, corporal punishment is frequently used in schools, where it is administered with a cane (rotan in Malay). In addition, both Malaysia and Singapore use the rotan as a judicial punishment in addition to prison sentences. In Malaysia, generally only men are caned, but last year a Muslim woman was sentenced to be caned after she pleaded guilty to drinking beer. (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/malaysia-to-cane-muslim-woman-over-beer-20090819-eq82.html) The caning was postponed due to Ramadan, and I'm not sure if it has even been done as of now.