Krsna Das
13 January 2010, 05:16 AM
Hare Krsna ! Please accept my dandavat pranamas !

All glories to SriSri Radha-Krsna, our Guru-Varga and Vaisnavas !

FYI, the foundation on which our Sampradaya (also ISKCON) is based can be described in the following verse:

आराध्यो भगवान् ब्रजेश तनय: तद्धाम वृन्दावनं
रम्यकाचिद उपासना व्रज-वधु वर्गेण या कल्पिता
श्री मद भागवतम प्रमाणमलम प्रेम पुमर्थो महान
श्री चैतन्य महाप्रभोर मतम इदं तत्र आदरो न: पर:

ärädhyo bhagavän vrajeça tanayas taddhäma vrndävanam
ramyä käcid upäsanä vrajavadhü vargena yä kalpitä
çsé mad bhägavatam pramänam amalam prema pumärtho mahän
çré caitanya mahäprabhor matam idam taträdaro nah-parah

1. ärädhyo - The word itself means devotional service or Bhakti (Aradhana). Therefore, all other processes of attaining the Supreme Personality, like astanga-yoga, advaitism, niskama-karma, dhyan-yoga etc have been refuted. Aradhana/Bhakti only, not any other process.

2. bhagavän - Devotional service to whome? To Indra? Mangalmurti Sri Ganesh? to Devi Bhagwati? NOPE ! answer comes - "Bhagwan" - meaning devotion only to Supreme Personality of Godhead, not to any other devtas, gandharvas, yaksas etc.

3. vrajeça tanaya - But devotional service to which incarnation (swaroop) of Bhagwan? The four handed Lord Visnu? Lord Ram-candra? Lord Vamandeva? NO, they are not our upasya-tattva. Our upasya-tattva is the son of Nanda Maharaj only. (vrajeça tanaya).

4. taddhäma vrndävanam - Devotional service only to Sri Krsna, that's fine. But Krsna in which bhava? The one who is Dwarika-dhesa (King of dwarika) ? Mathuresa-Krsna (King of Mathura) ? Or Krsna in the mood of a rathi (charioteer) of Arjuna? - answer is NOPE, they are not our upasya-tattva. WHY? are they not Krsna? - Yes they are definately Krsna and we offer our unlimited dandavat pranamas to all these moods, but they are NOT our upasya-tattva. Our upasya-tattva is Krsna, but the one who in the mood of a cowherd boy (madhurya-bhava) in Sri Vrndavan Dham - he alone is our object of devotional service. [SAMBANDHA-TATTVA]

5. ramyä käcid upäsanä vrajavadhü vargena yä kalpitä - So Vrindavan-vihari-Krsna is our upasya-tattva, that's fine. But in which mood are WE? In the aisvarya-bhava like Prahlad Maharaj? In the servital mood like that of Sri Hanuman? In the mood of similar to that of Arjuna (Sakya-Bhava)? - NOPE, that is not our upasana-tattva. Our upasana-tattva is devotional service in the mood of gopis (vraja-vadhü) of Vrndavan - Only that mood, not others. [ABHIDEYA-TATTVA] supposed to worship him

6. çsé mad bhägavatam pramänam amalam - OK. ACCEPTED. But what is the pramana (proof) that the process mentioned above is sanctioned by the vedic literature? answer is - Pramana is Sri Mad Bhagwatam itself, the crest-jewel (mukut-mani) of vedic literature, which propounds the pure-unalloyed-bhakti only as the Supreme Process and rejects others processes which are counted as filth (mala) by the devotees (amalam). [AMNAYA-TATTVA]

7. prema pumärtho mahän -So what will the soul (Jiva) gain by such process? What is the goal of this process? - answer comes - PremaThat prema is our ONLY goal. [PRAYOJANA-TATTVA] (Unconditional-divine-love) which is capable of bounding Sri Bhagwan himself will be attained.

8. çré caitanya mahäprabhor matam idam - Fine. But who is the authority to propund this sidhhanta (mata) as the Supreme process in Bhagwatam itself? Answer - It is Krsna himself in the form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu -he alone has given this sidhhanta to us.

9. tatr-ädaro - Since this sidhhanta is given by Krsna himself, so we offer our utmost respects (adar) to this sidhanta and consider this sidhhanta alone, to be Supreme of all.

10. Nah-parah - But what about OTHER sidhhantas/darsan-sastra or philosophies (Advaitism/Panca-devopasana/Karma-Yoga/Astanga-Yoga)? Do we not acknowledge them also as the path to attain Godhead? answer is - Nah Parah - NOPE, any other philosophy which does not confirm to the one mentioned above, we DO NOT offer any respect to any such Sidhhanta.


I hope this thread will clarify our Sidhhanta in the minds of the readers and also answer that why sometimes gaudiya-vaisnavas or ISKCONIT'es behave in a peculiar way, when it comes to other sampradayas.


Hare Krsna !

13 January 2010, 08:34 AM
I hope this thread will clarify our Sidhhanta in the minds of the readers and also answer that [B]why sometimes gaudiya-vaisnavas or ISKCONIT'es behave in a peculiar way, when it comes to other sampradayas.

Yes, Prabhu

I am well aware of how the Lord and Goswamis have sorted out shuddha prema from all the rest.

If someone is willingly entering the parivAr, sAmpradAya (disciplic succession) , they get the rules, chastisement , medicine, everything.

Lord Chaitanya , NityAnanda , by their mercy, reached the most general masses with the Holy Names, they went door to door begging "Please chant".
The situation at their time required rivival of ahaituki prema , Servitude, Deity Worship, etc.

They brought medicine.

Vedavyasaji wrote the various purAna elevating a different Deity as Param (Supreme), to cater to the vareigatedness of the jivas, their nature, svabhAv.

So, how can
* ahaituki prem bhakti (unconditional love),
* for Vishnu tattva
* that too accepting Madhurya only (sweetness in Vrndavan, Gopal Krshna) and rejecting aishwarya (Dwarakadheesh/Vishnu worship) ,
* that too in madhurya bhaav (gopi bhaav) ,
* that too in vipralambha (separation)
* that too as a manjari ONLY (tadbhavicchamayi , and not as a sakhi)

be the final ultimate goal of each and every jiva to whom the Mahamantra is graciously, mercifully given from a distance, like throwing a merciful frisbee at them ?

I never took up the process because I came from the other end and also the back door and could see everything. i.e. I met Krshna and His Words before I met Srila PrabhupAd and his books. (Nevertheless, PrabhupAd has been loving and grandfather-like, and even today, shows appreciation on slight interest towards his books and teachings. In Lord Chaitanya I see Radha, and a mother. )

Therefore, Gaudiyas should not try to insist that others are in peril running after dharma artha kaama moksha , Shakti Upasana, or Mayavada is taking people to hell, etc. Its not either-or, black-or-white. Mayavadis can be prema bhaktas too, but Advaita is obviously not for everyone.

These boogeyman stories are applicable internally.
Mother (Srila PrabhupAd) says "If you don't listen, boogeyman out there will catch you"
Also, calling outsiders rascals is for the sake of his own disciples, so outsiders should ignore this and not be offended , although their taking offense is also understandable. Its to emphasize how other kids(hypothetical, potential rascals) who don't listen get caught by boogeyman.

That does no mean the inside kids should repeat the message to ALL outside kids thinking they are not being saved :)
Kids outside the parampara have good mothers too, and also ShyAmsundar Himself.

My intention is not to start a debate or discussion , just seeing it from the other side of the fence.


Krsna Das
13 January 2010, 08:51 AM
Please accept my dandavat pranamas at your lotus feet, and oblidge me by praying to Mahaprabhu for an insignificant soul like me.

You are very correct.

Supreme Sidhhanta cannot be propunded to a person, until and unless the jungles of mayavad are cut, by the sword of tattva-sidhhanta.

It is for this reason that our namaskar mantra for Srila Prabhupada contains - "nirvisesa sunya-vadi pascatya dese tarine".

But when we discuss our sidhhanta, people think we are spreading hatred, and blasphaming their dieties. That is not so actually (I hope you get my point where I am coming from).

Thanks for a nice post as yours.

Hari Bol !

13 January 2010, 11:36 AM
PraNAms to you too , Krsna Prabhu, and thank you.

I am not sure if you got my msg , though.

What you are saying is fine except that -

- We cannot say this siddhanta is necessarily the only Supreme,
- there may be no jungles to be cut outside of the parampara (for those inside , this is fine)
- That MAyAvAda (Advaita Vedanta) is not ShunyavAda , on the contrary its PUrNavAda (the philosophy of completeness, wholeness, oneness).

oṁ pūrṇamadaḥ pūrṇamidaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇamudacyate ~
pūrṇasya pūrṇamādāya pūrṇamīvāvashiṣyate ||

- IshAvAsya Upanishad


I wish you all the best and may Radha Krshna, Gauranga continue to bless you.


Krsna Das
14 January 2010, 08:39 AM
Dandavat Pranamas , Smaranam Ji,

I have my own reservations to the comments you posted in your post, but I don't see any point in scribbbling these here. So I am not responsing anything, also especially when both of us don't want to have a debate.

If you still want me to comment, let me know.

Radhe Krsna Prana Mor, Yugal Kisore !