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wcrow
31 January 2010, 05:44 AM
I understand that Saguna Brahman is Brahman with qualities. Now, also to my understanding, each sect each has its own deity with all the auspicous qualities - for shavias it is shiva, for vaishnas it is vishnu ect - is this correct?
Now, here is what I do not understand. What is the point of worshiping other forms of the saguna brahman if they do not have all the qualities - it would just be worshpping something limited, wouldn't it? Like a shaivite worshipping vishnu - surely shiva has all the aspects that vishnu does?
Now for those who do not see any one god as supreme, again, you seem to be limiting Brahman - why not just worship one god who has all the good qualities rather than several who are limited?

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am not bashing hinduism. I come here in ignorance in the hope to be educated.

Thankyou in advance.

sunyata07
31 January 2010, 01:33 PM
Namaste wcrow,

You ask a reasonable question. I have asked myself that question before when I was still coming to grips with the basic understanding of Brahman as manifest in Sanatana Dharma, and I think after becoming a little bit more acquainted with it for some time I realised that I have been limiting myself in the understanding of what each Deva represents to its respective denomination. Yes, each denomination has its own particular deva who represents the Supreme Being and to whom they will largely direct their worship to.


Like a shaivite worshipping vishnu - surely shiva has all the aspects that vishnu does?

Good point. Yes, while I don't think worship of Shiva and Vishnu are necessarily exclusive, to a Saivite, Shiva contains all aspects of God - He is the creator and the preserver as well as the destroyer. The Saivite is happy to worship Shiva alone, although he may include worship of Ganesha, Murugan and Shakti to complete connection with Him. To Vaishnavas, it is Vishnu who embodies these three forces, and they will be happy to pray and glorify the name of Narayana and the same for His avatars, Rama and Krishna. But what then is the difference here between Shiva and Vishnu? Nothing, they are - or I should say He is the same luminous, Supreme Being, and has merely manifested Himself into different physical aspects for individual preference. However, it can be said that there are certain attributes that are emphasised in a particular aspect of God. And I think this is what you mean by limiting Brahman. Yes, Brahman has no limits. We can never understand Brahman. Ultimately, Brahman is beyond thought, concepts and words. But Saguna Brahman has form and as a form must be static in order for us to perceive it with our minds, it has to have limits. Otherwise we could not even begin to comprehend Him. We have a restricted understanding of the universe as human beings. Because we are born into this life it is a natural inclination for us to feel things must have a beginning and an end, that there is a boundary to whatever it is you are talking about. Thus, we give our God(s) names, physical description and even temperamental qualities in an effort to establish a connection with Him.


why not just worship one god who has all the good qualities rather than several who are limited?

Well, aside from the respect for diversity (the One in Many), worship of various devas can act as a means of cultivating a deeper relationship with the Supreme Being. Sometimes worship of a certain deva can remind us what we ought to strive for as true devotees of God. Look at worship of Radha-Krishna, for example. Many would see worship to Radha as a necessary step for true worship of Krishna. The same can be said for Hanuman and Rama, or Shakti and Shiva and so on. Besides this completion of worship, the differing qualities of some devas can impart a greater sense of compatibility and understanding in a person than another deva would. So as an example, in Hanuman you can see intelligence, strength and undying loyalty to God, something many people would certainly aspire to, and so they would naturally invoke His support and protection. This means that worship can be tailored to suit personal preference and taste, whether you are pulled by one quality over another. The worship of a deity with "limited" aspects is putting it a bit too crudely. One does not pray to this God for X, and to this God for Y. To a true devotee, the deity(ies) they direct their attention to will naturally encompass all things auspicious, all things good and beautiful.

OM Shanti

saidevo
01 February 2010, 11:36 AM
namaste wcrow.

You have rightly understood about nirguNa and saguNa Brahman. saguNa--with auspicious qualities, so saguNa Brahman is the formful Brahman with all auspicious qualities, while nirguNa Brahman is the ultimate, absolute, formless Brahman behind every atom of this universe.

As to the presence of a multitude of God-forms in Hinduism, the basic answer could be that it's human nature to seek variety and multiplicity. Why do we require so many brands of soap, facepowder, perfume, creams and other cosmetic items when each of them is all the same basically? Why do we require such a variety of garments of the same kind, when the basic covering by cloth only needs to be simple and functional?

As humans, we have our personal preferences. Hindus have extended it to the divine forms. As to why should a Shaivite worship VishNu and vice versa, it is the Hindu quality of deference for other perceptions. All the God-forms have been given to us by our venerated Rishis and sages, so there is no question of one sect reviling the gods of another, although this happens more often than not in debates and discussions because, along with the quality of deference, exclusivity is also part of human nature. So long as this nature of exclusivity does not turn into fanaticism with a bent towards conversion and destruction, it is welcome as an acceptable, even admirable variety in life.

You are possibly aware that nirguNa Brahman can't be worshipped, only realized. The very act of worship creates duality, whether you worship one God or many gods. But then worship purifies our body and mind and gives us a more tolerant and compassionate outlook.

This post of mine, although meant for kids, could be of help to understand the philosophy involved in the plurality of gods in Hinduism:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=6575&postcount=1

wcrow
01 February 2010, 02:11 PM
Thankyou both for your exellent replies! I think that what you are saying is that brahman manifests himself in different ways for different people and different occasions. I guess it makes it eisier if an individual deva is limited because it is easier to get your mind around if it is lmited to one concept? Rather than trying to work with one trancendant, absolute being.

I don't know if anyone here adheres to this view but I have seen it around. I have seen people say that all devas are one and what "face" you put on this one is irellevant - it is the same. What would they think regarding this issue?

Thanks,

Wilfred.

sunyata07
02 February 2010, 12:52 PM
I think that what you are saying is that brahman manifests himself in different ways for different people and different occasions. I guess it makes it eisier if an individual deva is limited because it is easier to get your mind around if it is lmited to one concept?


Exactly. As Saidevo has said, you cannot worship Nirguna Brahman, because there is nothing tangible for your mind to connect with. You can only realise it, enter into complete union with your Self. When you have attained that level of spiritual awakening, there would be no need for worship. But for the rest of us, Saguna Brahman affords us the easy access to understanding different facets of the same God.



I don't know if anyone here adheres to this view but I have seen it around. I have seen people say that all devas are one and what "face" you put on this one is irellevant - it is the same. What would they think regarding this issue?


I cannot speak for everyone - naturally, there will always be factions that will be inclined towards another way of thinking - but I would say many, if not most, Hindus have this world view of God. I would agree with you in saying that ultimately, the name and forms you use for God are irrelevant. It matters little if you worship a one aspect over another, if you don't have sincere love for God in your heart to begin with and renunciation of your ego, your worship and prayers are pointless. If all devas are manifestations of Him, it really does not matter how you address Him or Her. The goal you see remains the same: complete bliss in union with the Supreme Being. However, like I pointed out in my first post, everyone has a certain "soft spot" for someone or something they love. This is natural, and just goes to show that various faces of the Divine can act as reflections of our own personalities and tastes as individuals.

If other members of the forum disagree with this, perhaps they will care to explain to you what their views are. I cannot pretend I understand or am even familiar with all the sampradayas and religiouos world views within Hinduism.

OM Shanti

ScottMalaysia
02 February 2010, 03:59 PM
A lot of Hindus aren't sectarian and would probably think that all the Gods are different forms of the Supreme.

As for a Saivite worshipping Vishnu, read the following quote from Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami's book Dancing with Siva:

"As Primal Soul, Siva is the five-fold manifestation: Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; Rudra, the destroyer; Maheshvara, the veiling Lord, and Sadashiva, the revealer."

It seems that Saivites see Vishnu as one of the manifestations of Siva. However, some Vaishnavas (I don't know about all) see Vishnu (or Krishna in the case of ISKCON) as the Supreme and Lord Siva as Vishnu's servant and devotee (himself a Vaishnava).