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ScottMalaysia
04 February 2010, 06:07 PM
Hi, I have a few questions about Hindu priests.

Firstly, is the proper term for a Hindu priest "pujari", or is a pujari something different?

Secondly, is a Hindu priest ordained in an ordination ceremony like a Roman Catholic priest, or do they simply start performing the rituals once they know enough?

Thirdly, can Hindu priests marry or are they celibate like Catholic priests?

sanjaya
04 February 2010, 06:13 PM
Excellent questions Scott. I've never actually thought much about Hindu priests myself, so I'm interested to hear the answers too.

Eastern Mind
04 February 2010, 06:46 PM
Vannakkam: Yes, good questions indeed. I've never been able to figure it out.

There are Smarta Brahmins, Adi Saivas, Deekshidars, Priests, Pundits who do puja, Iyers, Iyengers, Kurukkals, Sivachariyas, and the list continues. Some use certain slokas, others use other slokas, some won't do certain pujas, some will do any puja anywhere. There is a special priesthood for funerals only, some can adapt, others can't. Some lose status when they leave India. Some don't. The materials differ. A havan is a homa in the south, or vice versa. Different methods of aarti are used. Some use only ghee. Others use oil. Some substitute oill for camphor. Training is done in many places. Some are insistent there way is the correct way, others aren't. You can get a different style archana in the same temple but done by a different priest. Some eat garlic. Some don't. They dress differently. Some go with shirt. Some go without. Some will lecture or explain. Some never would. And then there are pandarams, volunteers when Brahmins aren't available. I myself fell into that category once upon a time. lol Are you confused yet?

I think its as diverse as Sanatana Dharma itself.

As far as your questions go, this is what I believe. There will be other answers ... for sure.

A pujari is anyone who does the puja in a public place. Literally 'person who does puja' so you are the pujari in your home shrine.

Most priests have some sort of formal training in Sanskrit, at a priest school, or as apprentices under other priests. Some get certificates, but others don't.

Priests are usually married. There may be exceptions. (In maths, for example) I don't know.

Looking forward to any clarification we get.

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
05 February 2010, 04:39 AM
Namaste all
Yes, it is is something I have not been clear about. I do not wish to encroach on Scotts' OP but I wonder if the questions on my mind will help to find or influence an answer on priest names, ordination and being celibate.

What about a Swami can they act as a priest?

Does sect help to determine the differences which Eastern Mind describes?

What about Self-realisation and Enlightenment, is there a marked transition between monk to swami or to priest depending on whether they recognise enlightement whilst living, only after physical death or if it happens during their course of being a priest or monk?

I assume all these are areas which lead to the ambiguity.

ScottMalaysia
05 February 2010, 05:19 AM
Thanks for the answers, Eastern Mind. I've observed different rituals at different temples. Some use an oil wick in the camphor lamp, for example.

My mother-in-law told me that Hindu priests can't get married, but someone else I knew in Malaysia said that she knew married priests. Once when I went to the Wellington temple during the week for arati, the only people there were the priest and another woman who rang the bell during the arati, whom I'm assuming is his wife.

devotee
05 February 2010, 05:32 AM
Namaste,

I admire EM's humility when he says right things so humbly. What EM has said is all true & nothing needs to be added.

The priest and Pujari are one & the same. The priests normally are born Brahmins. They learn the rituals from their elders. However, they also may be formally trained as EM pointed out. There is no compulsion that they should be celibate. They may or may not be. Mostly they are married and have families.

"Swami" is a title conferred on a Sannyaasi by his Guru, often belonging to Advaita Darshana. They follow a different path & mostly meditate instead of indulging in ritualistic worship. They never ever become a priest ... which is a sort of livelihood for the priests & the Swamis cannot own anything.

The enlightened beings don't become priests. They have no reasons to be. It would affect their own saadhanaa. And they have no worldly desire to satisfy by earning money by becoming a priest. They are least attached to this world.

I hope that clarifies the doubts.

OM

Onkara
05 February 2010, 06:50 AM
Thank you, Devotee Ji, you clear up my questions. :)

ScottMalaysia
05 February 2010, 08:01 AM
Thanks Devotee for the info.

Do Hindu priests go through an ordination ceremony like Catholic and Orthodox priests do? If so, who performs the ceremony?

devotee
05 February 2010, 08:46 AM
Do Hindu priests go through an ordination ceremony like Catholic and Orthodox priests do? If so, who performs the ceremony?

No, Scott. The born brahmin is considered to have acquired the rights to be a priest by his birth. He only has to learn from his father/mother how to do it. Once he feels confident that he can do it correctly, he can become a priest.

OM

sambya
05 February 2010, 10:41 AM
nice question in this thread .

well, a hindu priest is not quite the same thing as a catholic priest . a hindu priest in called a purohit . and patterns of priesthood have evolved over centuries since its inception in the early vedic era .

i dont think that proffesional priests existed in days of the aryans . for the main rituals in those times were the yagnas which was conducted by the rishis themselves at the hubmble request and invitation to do so by the monarchs . the rest of the time these rishis spent there lives in pursuit of truth and sadhana .

the brahmana had and still has the right to conduct public ceremonies . in this way a brahmana acted both as a priest(purohit) and a teacher(pandit) . hence today one may find these terms being used interchangebly . ritualistic worship was but one of the many knowledges that a brahmana was suposed to gather in his lifetime . however with the degenaration of the hindu structure in the muslim era this social system fell apart and barhmins chose new proffesions in new circumstances . but even today they can revert back to their old proffesions if they want . their caste gives them the absolute authority over public rituals !!

a hindu priest might marry (in many cases he does) . preists might engage themselves in a wide varity of rituals ranging from temple worship , private home worship , publc festivals , funerals , marraige ceremony , thread ceremony , birthday celebrations etc etc . anywhere where rituals are needed a priest is needed too .

presently however more competent brahmans have moved on to 'higher' services and business while others remain for preisthood .

sambya
05 February 2010, 11:03 AM
Namaste all


What about a Swami can they act as a priest?

yes , a renounced sannyasi can also act as a priest , but his worship is generally meant for some higher purpose . to illustrate this point think of an example------ a family man wants to do some puja for material prosperities and his wife's good health . so he calls a proffesional priest , who must be duely paid , and gets his puja done . but a sannyasi generally wont come to someones house to help you in a puja to get material benedictions . his puja to supreme would be directed for his own spiritual upliftment or for highest well being (highest wellbeing is generally god-consciousness for a jiva) of everyone on this planet . thus his puja is generally on spiritual realms while that of a priest very often on material realms .

but sometimes even some 'sannyasis' might act as proffesional priests for a quick money !!;)

there is such a thing in hinduism as 'adhikaar' or competency . everyone is not considered competent for everything . for example for a left handed tantrik offering food to devi in a human skull(kapala) might be okay but for a householders its strictly forbidden . a brahmachaari(celibate spiritual aspirant) might worship a nrisimha salagram shila but a householder cant . similarly there are some rituals that cannot be preformed without a shika(ceremonial tuft of hair ) and a sutra(sacred thread) . in a narrower sense it means the non-brahmins are not entitled to this act . however a sannyasi (those taking inittiation into sannyasa under dasanami sampradaya of sakaracharya) also abandones his shikha and sutra as a symbol of trsncending narrow caste barriers . hence they also refrain from those activities .


Does sect help to determine the differences which Eastern Mind describes?
yes it does , and also does the regional practices and ancient customs .


What about Self-realisation and Enlightenment, is there a marked transition between monk to swami or to priest depending on whether they recognise enlightement whilst living, only after physical death or if it happens during their course of being a priest or monk?


i coudltn not get your question right , but from whatever i have understood let me try it like this-----

enlightment and priesthood are totally different terms in hindu way . a priest might be following meticulous details of shastra and doing worship in a perfect way and yet be puffed up in false pride and egotism . needless to say , such an individual would be lest interested in spiritual enlightment or moksha . all he does is to follow shastra blindly . such a person rarely gets the proper sukriti(good karmic reactions) of his regular rituals . beacuse shastra says " bhavagrahi janardana " which means lord sees only the emotions working in your heart and not the external offerings .
however a sannyasi is one who has renounced everything for the cause of self realization . if he undertakes priesthood it shall not be a blind following of shastra but for love of god . now , whether or not he attains to mukti in this lifetime depends upon god and god alone !!!! it may come in future births , or in this birth while he is still alive or at the time of death .

sambya
05 February 2010, 11:06 AM
Thanks Devotee for the info.

Do Hindu priests go through an ordination ceremony like Catholic and Orthodox priests do? If so, who performs the ceremony?

there is nothing like ordination ceremony . but upanayanam ceremony (thread ceremony) is needed for him to be a brahmin proper . without a thread he doesnt become a brahmin .

Eastern Mind
05 February 2010, 12:15 PM
i dont think that proffesional priests existed in days of the aryans .


I hope this doesn't mean you're still holding to the Aryan Invasion theory.

Om Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
05 February 2010, 12:22 PM
Vannakkam all:

This thread reminds me of a nice story. Once born a Brahmin, this in iself (as Devotee has put it) entitles you to be a priest. However, many young Brahmins, and for the last several decades, have dropped out of the priesthood, although they still maintain Brahmin status, and sometimes cuture, depending on individuals. Many will do home rites etc. But its just hard to make a living as a priest. Its really quite the conundrum - respect, and disrespect at the same time.

But one priest I know here was an engineer, doing quite well, when in fact he had a calling to return to his roots. I admire the guy a lot, because he had to take quite the cut in salary to do it. He had to sort of retrain himself, and learn new mantrams for the temple he now works in. But I personally htingk this makes him a better priest, having seen the 'other side' so to speak.

Aum Namasivaya

sambya
06 February 2010, 02:26 AM
I hope this doesn't mean you're still holding to the Aryan Invasion theory.

Om Namasivaya

no . i dont beilev in aryan invasion theory wholly . it might have been a invasion or a migration ...but then , migrations have been there even before we became humans !
so even if a tribe , that later became 'aryans' , migrated into the indus territory at any point of time , it is likely to be a prehistorical incident and hence unworthy of historical analysis .
there might be a faint possibility of ancestors of the aryans having migrated into india , but what we call and know as vedic culture is essentially a product of indian soil . this is what i believe .....








when i said the proffesional priesthood did not exist in early vedic period i was basing my assumptions on the early vedic literatures including ramayana and mahabharata where we come across numerous rituals and fire sacrifices being conducted by rishis and munis at the request of the kings .
the second reason was , the puja as we know it today did not exist at the time of vedas . icons and murtis were there to a certain extent and specially with the dravid people and tribal races . but the vast majority of aryans engaged in fire sacrifices . the concept of ' puja ' was born much later mainly under influence of tantra agamas and local rituals and got its finall touch(concept of selfless seva of archa vigraha) in bhakti movement in the last milleneum .

sambya
06 February 2010, 02:56 AM
Vannakkam all:

But its just hard to make a living as a priest. Its really quite the conundrum - respect, and disrespect at the same time.




yes this is true ..

a proffesional priest gets a meagre amount of money for each rituals . and only those who have not managed a better job in other levels of society sticks to priesthood nowadays .
however this doesnt hold true of the traditional mohants and heads of big ancient temples who generally carry on their ancestral traditions .

and the stangest thing is perhaps the way a priest is treated . for example a head of the family might touch his feet in imitation of what he has seen and learnt from his forefathers , but might be quarreling with him the next moment as a effective means of bargain . respect and disrespect at the same time . both the ages(past and the present) , have left its mark !!:)

sanjaya
06 February 2010, 03:14 AM
No, Scott. The born brahmin is considered to have acquired the rights to be a priest by his birth. He only has to learn from his father/mother how to do it. Once he feels confident that he can do it correctly, he can become a priest.

OM


Vannakkam all:

This thread reminds me of a nice story. Once born a Brahmin, this in iself (as Devotee has put it) entitles you to be a priest. However, many young Brahmins, and for the last several decades, have dropped out of the priesthood, although they still maintain Brahmin status, and sometimes cuture, depending on individuals. Many will do home rites etc. But its just hard to make a living as a priest. Its really quite the conundrum - respect, and disrespect at the same time.

But one priest I know here was an engineer, doing quite well, when in fact he had a calling to return to his roots. I admire the guy a lot, because he had to take quite the cut in salary to do it. He had to sort of retrain himself, and learn new mantrams for the temple he now works in. But I personally htingk this makes him a better priest, having seen the 'other side' so to speak.

Aum Namasivaya


As has been pointed out, a lot of Brahmins these days are not practicing priests. For example, although my family is Brahmin, I don't think I even have any distant relatives who act as priests in any temple. I can understand the idea that the priesthood is inherited. But is there a Scriptural or traditional basis for people who are not born Brahmins becoming priests as well? Or, to turn the question around, is there any basis for the belief that the priesthood comes exclusively by inheritance?

sambya
06 February 2010, 07:08 AM
As has been pointed out, a lot of Brahmins these days are not practicing priests. For example, although my family is Brahmin, I don't think I even have any distant relatives who act as priests in any temple. I can understand the idea that the priesthood is inherited. But is there a Scriptural or traditional basis for people who are not born Brahmins becoming priests as well? Or, to turn the question around, is there any basis for the belief that the priesthood comes exclusively by inheritance?

i dont know of any other way of priesthood other than by inheritance . ofcourse many religious and spiritual orders inittiate their young followers as brahmacharis( which automatically involves giving gayatri initiation and shikha sutra) and alllow them to conduct brahmnical worship within their institution .

but their authority generally remains restricted within that instituion itself .
for the rest of the hindu world it is a different story ......

ScottMalaysia
07 February 2010, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Has anyone ever seen a Western Hindu priest who converted to Hinduism (except for ISKCON who are mainly Westerners anyway)?

Eastern Mind
07 February 2010, 04:34 PM
Vannakkam Scott: There used to be a westerner priest at Rameswaram. I have never spoken with him, only going by my wife's and others' stories. He was allowed into the sanctums, and was at the least an assistant priest. My guess is he just hung around chanting mantras and the like long enough and with such commitment that the local priesthood there just accepted him. That would be the only way possible, it seeems to me. It would be highly unusual. Pandarams are another matter, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

Aum Namasivaya

sambya
07 February 2010, 09:48 PM
Vannakkam Scott: There used to be a westerner priest at Rameswaram. I have never spoken with him, only going by my wife's and others' stories. He was allowed into the sanctums, and was at the least an assistant priest. My guess is he just hung around chanting mantras and the like long enough and with such commitment that the local priesthood there just accepted him. That would be the only way possible, it seeems to me. It would be highly unusual. Pandarams are another matter, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

Aum Namasivaya


thats an interesting read . a temple of south allowing a 'westerner' in its sanctum ... unbelievable!! but deserves a thumbs up .

good to see them easing things up at last ...

profmads
02 March 2010, 07:25 PM
What I know is
Hindu Priests in Bali have children.
Do you know we have 2 kinds of priests: Shiva and Buddha.
Both do ceremonies (muput upakara) in certain families (such as mine)
Thank you.

rcscwc
03 March 2010, 11:51 PM
Hi, I have a few questions about Hindu priests.

Firstly, is the proper term for a Hindu priest "pujari", or is a pujari something different?

Secondly, is a Hindu priest ordained in an ordination ceremony like a Roman Catholic priest, or do they simply start performing the rituals once they know enough?

Thirdly, can Hindu priests marry or are they celibate like Catholic priests?

Pujari is one performs puja in a temple. The one who helps in rituals is actually called a PUROHIT or a HOTA. Of course, a pujari can act as a Purohit too.

Purohits are traditionally hereditary. One can have more than one purohit. Usually, at distant pilgrimage places, you can locate your family/village Panda, a term for purohit. Pandas maintain books of geneology too. You can enter and update your family tree.

[You can enter many details of self for future identification by your descendents. At a temple in Jharkhand, I entered even the name of my driver as accompaying me. Of wife, son and daughter too were mentioned; as were where I came from, where I would go and why I came etc.

But before that you casn ask to browse his books to verify if he REALLY is your purohit.

You have the right to dismiss such pandas/purohits and appoint a new one. In fact you have the upper hand.]

Are Hindu priests aka pujaris/hotas/purohits supposed to be celebate. NO. They have to deal with the HOUSEHOLDERS, and MUST know the problems, limitations, obligations of the office of a householder. So, in general, they are married at a reasonable age.

grames
04 March 2010, 02:12 AM
Just my two cents...

Poojari - This is not a status offered to anyone by birth as this thread happens to believe. Everyone who do pooja are Poojaris. So EM is a poojari when he does Pooja at his home, Devotee is a poojari when he does Pooja at this home.

Secondly, what about the poojaris at temples. Are they same like us? Or are they qualified because they are born as Brahmins. It is totally untrue that anyone and everyone who are born as brahmins are automatically qualified. Brahmin is a material caste and Brahmana as the spritiual caste is the only one who gets such qualification. Such varna is determined only after their completion of the Brahmacharya. All the orthodox traditions who are owning the rights to do pooja for the deities in the temples have very strict rules about who can ONLY perform such pooja . They do not get this exalted status by birth and no temple that belongs to orthodox tradition allows this sort of qualification by birth thing. Vaishnavas and shaivas have very strict rules for such Poojaris and they do follow lot of Rules to remain a temple preist for various reasons. Modern day dilution does not invalidate the strict requirement that a poojari has to follow for performing pooja in the temples. Though the political parties and governments are working overtime to give equal status and power to perform pooja, such expectations are shallow in the realm of spiritual wisdom. Do not get carried away by this materialistic so called Brahmin caste and they are just like anyone else unless their life is all about Knowing Brahman. ( Someone who know Brahman is in fact called a Brahamana and not someone who is still seeking... as per Shaivaism, as per Vaishavaism etc.)

You made the point very well and yes in this age it is very very hard and extremely difficult to live a life of a priest. Money governs us and there are so many who have tons of reservation about keeping this priest community away from material worries. Giving a Dhan to a priest is considered very pious and such Dhan itself will remove a lot of Papa from us. I know we are trying to be more practical and seeing their status of life through our material owning. This exactly where the rules for Priest strikes out all such material thought, possesions etc. to be qualified as only such people can please the Lord and stand as example for those who seek the divine blessings.

Prohits are again those who are well versed in Mantra and also who know God! Only those can bring all the spiritual benefits of doing Homa etc and share that divine blessings with the associated performer. Not anyone with just some saffron dhotti and towel will be able to deliver such divine rituals successfully.

I also do acknowledge the fact that much of the dilution happened to these honorable duties lately due to the need of material demands. We are lucky if we see few such priests but surely they still do exist.

Jivattatva
04 March 2010, 03:22 AM
Sorry double posting

Jivattatva
04 March 2010, 03:23 AM
Just my two cents...

Poojari - This is not a status offered to anyone by birth as this thread happens to believe. Everyone who do pooja are Poojaris. So EM is a poojari when he does Pooja at his home, Devotee is a poojari when he does Pooja at this home.

Secondly, what about the poojaris at temples. Are they same like us? Or are they qualified because they are born as Brahmins. It is totally untrue that anyone and everyone who are born as brahmins are automatically qualified. Brahmin is a material caste and Brahmana as the spritiual caste is the only one who gets such qualification. Such varna is determined only after their completion of the Brahmacharya. All the orthodox traditions who are owning the rights to do pooja for the deities in the temples have very strict rules about who can ONLY perform such pooja . They do not get this exalted status by birth and no temple that belongs to orthodox tradition allows this sort of qualification by birth thing. Vaishnavas and shaivas have very strict rules for such Poojaris and they do follow lot of Rules to remain a temple preist for various reasons. Modern day dilution does not invalidate the strict requirement that a poojari has to follow for performing pooja in the temples. Though the political parties and governments are working overtime to give equal status and power to perform pooja, such expectations are shallow in the realm of spiritual wisdom. Do not get carried away by this materialistic so called Brahmin caste and they are just like anyone else unless their life is all about Knowing Brahman. ( Someone who know Brahman is in fact called a Brahamana and not someone who is still seeking... as per Shaivaism, as per Vaishavaism etc.)

You made the point very well and yes in this age it is very very hard and extremely difficult to live a life of a priest. Money governs us and there are so many who have tons of reservation about keeping this priest community away from material worries. Giving a Dhan to a priest is considered very pious and such Dhan itself will remove a lot of Papa from us. I know we are trying to be more practical and seeing their status of life through our material owning. This exactly where the rules for Priest strikes out all such material thought, possesions etc. to be qualified as only such people can please the Lord and stand as example for those who seek the divine blessings.

Prohits are again those who are well versed in Mantra and also who know God! Only those can bring all the spiritual benefits of doing Homa etc and share that divine blessings with the associated performer. Not anyone with just some saffron dhotti and towel will be able to deliver such divine rituals successfully.

I also do acknowledge the fact that much of the dilution happened to these honorable duties lately due to the need of material demands. We are lucky if we see few such priests but surely they still do exist.


Grames,

With your post here, I agree with you completely.

This is classic GV understanding.

Good explanation.

ScottMalaysia
05 March 2010, 03:51 AM
So a Pujari performs worship in the temple, and a Purohit performs rituals and samskaras outside of the temple, for example, house blessings, various samskaras such as namakarana samskara?

The devotees at my local temple told me that the priest there could perform various ceremonies for my wife and I, but he would do them in Gujarati (which neither of us speak).

rcscwc
05 March 2010, 05:46 AM
Of course, a pujari might act as a purohit too; there is no bar.

TatTvamAsi
05 March 2010, 11:57 AM
It's quite funny to see some confuse priesthood with enlightenment. The latter is not a prerequisite of the former. It perhaps was in the days of yore where sages themselves were the purohits of the yagnyas but nowadays, and in recent history, priesthood is a profession, albeit a noble profession (in Hinduism).

Priests are not necessarily jnanis and thus most of them lead lives as a Grhasta (householder) with families etc. To expect them to be celibate and disinterested in material things (like sanyassins) is foolish and grossly unjust. Perhaps this is why you have so many so-called priests in the west who are forced to be celibate sleep with young boys; or is that just a christian tradition? ;)

The situation of priesthood in India (for Hindus) is in grave danger. As nobody supports priests anymore, and the government who are actively anti-Hindu also doesn't support them, many Brahmins decide to pursue a path different than priesthood. In fact, it is quite sad that many of the priests are from desperately poor families who can't afford a proper education, go into priesthood. Knowing that they would have pursued something else if given the opportunity does not make them ideal priests! Perhaps this is why there are a lot of complaints about so-called lazy priests and priests who ask about compensation before the yagnya etc.

However, we must not be so quick to dismiss these purohits. The background of this situation is quite deep and interesting.

In the ancient days, Kings and commoners supported Brahmins materially and provided land, money, valuables, etc. to subsist comfortably for their noble duties as purohits. It was a duty of the King and the subjects to support Brahmins who devoted their lives to learning the Vedas and keeping the spiritual health of the society positive and nurtured. This tradition surprisingly continued even when the musLAMES invaded India as most societies in India were largely unbroken. It is only after the rascality of the British, who broke down the gurukula system of education and replaced it with Macaulayan (modern style education where any numbskull is allowed to attend school) education, that Brahmins had to fend for themselves to subsist. The monarchy system was replaced or rendered useless during the British colonial rule of India and commoners were busy looking out for their own interests that nobody supported Brahmins anymore. This total abandonment of duty led to extreme poverty for most Brahmins. Some Brahmins, who were given land, were lucky and were able to lead comfortable lives but this was not the case for most of them. Thus when the British decided to allow the Indians to take up certain positions in the govt. after passing the ICS exam, most of these disenfranchised Brahmins applied as priesthood was rendered almost useless, at least materially speaking. This is why priests/purohits are Grhastas and cannot be expected to be anything more.

So priesthood, especially nowadays, is very hard to justify as a career choice as it is supported by very few Hindus themselves. That is why, I stated in another thread, support local temples, give to Hindu foundations and trusts that build temples and maintain them. They help the priests survive.

To see the plight of Brahmins in India today, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Xgc4ljHKM

ScottMalaysia
08 March 2010, 12:14 AM
Perhaps this is why you have so many so-called priests in the west who are forced to be celibate sleep with young boys; or is that just a christian tradition?

Only Catholic priests are celibate. Anglican and Orthodox priests, as well as Protestant pastors, are often married men.

Nobody forces young Catholic men to become priests. It's a choice that they make themselves. If they wanted to get married, then they would do so. And if they don't like the priesthood, they can become laicized and get married, which means that they are no longer allowed to exercise their priestly functions (except in an emergency).

TatTvamAsi, you seem to have serious issues with Christianity. The Hindu scriptures state "Ekam sat viprah bahuda vadanti" (Truth is one, the wise call it by many names).