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Onkara
05 February 2010, 02:38 PM
A powerful picture or image which remains in my mind is that of the Shivite.

When I see pictures of devotees, such as these of Shiva, I wonder about their goals, if any, and the changes which might happen to them whilst in pursuit of their goals. Do they progress through some form of monk to priest within the sect or is there something else in their future? How to understand this please?

I hope my wording does not communicate a completely wrong understanding. If it does then I hope their is a way to correct my understanding?

http://www.cringel.com/files/images/adia-2007-07-04-DSC-9060-shiva-devotees-wandering-sadhu-in-pashupatinath-temple-nepal-kathmandu-cringel.com.jpg

Eastern Mind
05 February 2010, 04:25 PM
Vannakkam Snip:

Not sure if these chaps are Saivas or not. The forehead marks seem to have both Vaishnava and Saiva. Someone from India could enlighten us. (Note the word 'enlighten', meaning 'to shed knowledge upon' not in the classical sense ... another reason why the word is so misused) Sorry about the digression. Certainly they are sadhus. (Roughly translated as wandering ascetics) One renounces the world to attain enlightenment, supposedly. I'm sure that this is a 'maybe' situation. I have my own doubts. There may be other reasons. I've heard several stories. Here are a few ideas for your consideration. (Do I sound like Yajvanji with this?)

1) I've heard there is a lot of cannabis use among sadhus. For me personally this raises doubts.
2) Also heard there may be some sort of ritualistic castration involved with some.
3) Renunciation is in the head... , in my opinion.
4) If one renounces the world,then why congregate in groups? (Many don't)
5) There seems to be an attachment to appearance, which is a contradiction within renunciation for me.

So go figure.

Certainly, if nothing else, they are interesting.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
05 February 2010, 08:42 PM
Namaste Snip and EM,

We can only guess when we have only pictures in hand. :)

These are Sadhus, most probably Shaivites as they have applied "Bhasma" (ash) on their bodies. They are basically wandering monks who have left their homes & all possessions in their spiritual quest under the guidance of their Guru.

These people move in groups with their Guru. The word of Guru is final for them. They don't own anything. They live on charity.

OM

Onkara
06 February 2010, 03:49 AM
Thank you Eastern Mind and Devotee!
I find the whole culture fascinating, I assume others must do too :) Have you personally seen or met people like this?

The picture is an example I found online and happens to be the same men who appeared in a travel documentary and were mentioned as Shivites. I wonder how one should approach people like this, what courtsey or respect one should take in general?

Eastern Mind
06 February 2010, 07:36 AM
Vannakkam Snip: The wandering mendicant is all over, but in general more common in the north of India. Most would not know English, and in my very limited experience, vary quite a bit. Population estimates vary between 10 to 15 million, including quite a few westerners. Other peoples attitudes vary between 'disdain for a lazy beggar' to 'worship as a holy man'. But really, if you are keen to learn more, because of the interest you have expressed, there is a TON of information on line. Just search the word 'sadhu'. You might be reading for months.

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
06 February 2010, 08:00 AM
Thank you Eastern Mind.
I will take your lead and look further on line. I liked to read others experiences and thoughts too, it gives it more life and interest when coming from members of the forum. :o

Ganeshprasad
06 February 2010, 09:06 AM
Pranam Snipji and all

I have met many on my travels, they come in all shape and size. I like to treat them with respect all being bit wary of them. It is impossible to tell the fake from true sadhu. A lot of them will beg for their guru, many times they would conjure up a magic trick and produce rudrask bead or two, I never get impressed by them. While you are on pilgrimage one would like to donate food or money it is the ones that are not satisfied by your donation, I like to stay away from. Like the one that approached me while I was in haridwar two years ago, asked me if I could buy him some food, I said not a problem so I gave him enough to by a thali in Haridwar not satisfied by it I had to remind him that a sadhu has to be satisfied with what he gets and not be greedy, off course it did not go well.
My best experience was when I did my char dham yatra on the way down from Kedar I met this young Sadhu who asked me how long to go and as everyone else do for encouragement I said not far, then I got a 100 rs note and gave it to him I said it will help you have food on the way up. His expression I cant forget, he said to me his not had food for a while and was wondering how will he eat when gets on top. He praised the lord and blessed me and said one who has faith will never go hungry, Bhole sees to that.
Also while in Gangotri here two Moni(vow of silence) Sadhu looked after us, worried about us fed us and served us Prasad yet asked nothing in return.
I must say I do not like the one that smoke, may be I am too hard on them, I must try and see wider picture.

Lets see how many I encounter if I get the chance to go to Kumbh mela, I am working on it.

Jai Shree Krishna

Onkara
06 February 2010, 10:39 AM
Lovely insight, thank you Ganeshprashad ji. :)

yajvan
06 February 2010, 10:50 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté

snip writes,

When I see pictures of devotees, such as these of Shiva, I wonder about their goals, if any, and the changes which might happen to them whilst in pursuit of their goals. Do they progress through some form of monk to priest within the sect or is there something else in their future? How to understand this please?

If I may let me add one point worthy of note that is tangential to this conversation...

Arjun asks kṛṣṇa (Bhāgavad gītā 2.54) What are the signs of a man whose intellect is steady, who is absorbed in the SELF ( the words used is samādhi-sthasya, fixed or established in evenness) keśava (kṛṣṇa)? How does he speak, how does sit, who does he walk?

This question IMHO is quite profound, and kṛṣṇa answers arjun (arjuna) in the next 18 verses. This is worthy of reading and studying. Never once does kṛṣṇa describe an outward feature e.g. sitting, standing, walking, markings, etc. He describes the inward experience of the individual and how s/he acts without longing, relinquished of nagging desires, free from the notion of 'I' and 'mine'.

Hence , for me, it is not how someone carries themselves, what markings that may be on one's forehead, what rosaries one may wear - these are all accessories to ones sādhana vs. one's indication of samādhi-sthasya.

praṇām

satay
06 February 2010, 08:06 PM
http://www.cringel.com/files/images/adia-2007-07-04-DSC-9060-shiva-devotees-wandering-sadhu-in-pashupatinath-temple-nepal-kathmandu-cringel.com.jpg

Bom Bom Bhole! Jai Bhole Nath!
:)

satay
06 February 2010, 08:14 PM
namaste snip,


When I see pictures of devotees, such as these of Shiva, I wonder about their goals, if any, and the changes which might happen to them whilst in pursuit of their goals. Do they progress through some form of monk to priest within the sect or is there something else in their future? How to understand this please?


There is only one goal of a devotee of shiva: to realize that he himself is shiva!

Eastern Mind
06 February 2010, 08:33 PM
Vannakkam Snip: My research on sadhu forehead marks indicates this picture is of Vaishnava sadhus, not that it matters. Saivas are more likely to have the 3 stripes of ash, or entirely in ash, not vertical sandalwood or V shapes on their heads. Apparently there is inividuality expressed here as well, and many different types. Another interesting thing is thes are usually buried not cremated, and are buried sitting up in lotus position.

So you are buying a one way ticket, then?

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
07 February 2010, 03:50 AM
namaste snip,

There is only one goal of a devotee of shiva: to realize that he himself is shiva!
Thats it, Satay, I think you have answered my question in one line :) I assume they then go on to be a Guru and have more Sadu with them, hence there are so many as mentioned in an earlier post.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~


Arjun asks kṛṣṇa (Bhāgavad gītā 2.54) What are the signs of a man whose intellect is steady, who is absorbed in the SELF ( the words used is samādhi-sthasya, fixed or established in evenness) keśava (kṛṣṇa)? How does he speak, how does sit, who does he walk?

This question IMHO is quite profound, and kṛṣṇa answers arjun (arjuna) in the next 18 verses. This is worthy of reading and studying. Never once does kṛṣṇa describe an outward feature e.g. sitting, standing, walking, markings, etc. He describes the inward experience of the individual and how s/he acts without longing, relinquished of nagging desires, free from the notion of 'I' and 'mine'.



praṇām
Thank you Yajvan, you bring depth and relevance. The point is very valid, Krishna does not require any symbols or outward marks. So I wonder if these Sadu are following quite a different school of thought and thinking? Do we see a division, albeit only within the Santana Dharma itself, where appearance is of importance? How do these Sadhu view the Bhagavad Gita?

Onkara
07 February 2010, 03:56 AM
Vannakkam Snip: My research on sadhu forehead marks indicates this picture is of Vaishnava sadhus, not that it matters. Saivas are more likely to have the 3 stripes of ash, or entirely in ash, not vertical sandalwood or V shapes on their heads. Apparently there is inividuality expressed here as well, and many different types. Another interesting thing is thes are usually buried not cremated, and are buried sitting up in lotus position.


Thank you for the research and feedback, Eastern Mind. I revisited the site and they are explained as Sadhu. I didnt wish to mislead, but I am pleased to learn from this non the less. Is there a table or chart which you know of which helps one to identify people by these markings?



So you are buying a one way ticket, then?

Haha, I am not sure my wife would be pleased with all the ash in the house. ;)

Jokes aside, I would love to travel and learn more, which explains why it is enjoyable to read all the input and experiences of others here.

satay
07 February 2010, 07:04 AM
pranam Eastern,

I think you are right about the markings. However, these sadhus look like saivas. They are wearing ash, their hair is jatta, they are wearing rudraksha. One is not only wearing ash on his upper body and seems to be a naga sadhu.

Vaishnava sadhus wear tulsi bead instead of rudraksha mala.

Not that it matters either way but my 2 cents.

Only with the grace of Shiva one can be so bold to only wear ash and nothing else. I would love to drop everything and walk among these sadhus one day...


Vannakkam Snip: My research on sadhu forehead marks indicates this picture is of Vaishnava sadhus, not that it matters. Saivas are more likely to have the 3 stripes of ash, or entirely in ash, not vertical sandalwood or V shapes on their heads. Apparently there is inividuality expressed here as well, and many different types. Another interesting thing is thes are usually buried not cremated, and are buried sitting up in lotus position.

So you are buying a one way ticket, then?

Aum Namasivaya

satay
07 February 2010, 07:26 AM
Pranam Ganesh,

Because I am from the north, generally, have similar experience to yours when growing up and even now whenever I visit the holy places. But the sadhus that are hanging around the holy places are just the ones on the outer circle of this society, isn't it. To see the inner circle, one has to be part of that society.

Smoking and drinking bhang is part of the ritual so we should be easy on judging them by that. (though I am not a smoker or drinker my self :))

Most sadhus want a bit of money because they need some for their food and they need some of it for their 'dhuni' the sacred fire.

I was thinking about the situation where you gave the 100 rs. to the sadhu. In that brief moment God worked through you to answer a specific prayer (of the sadhu). These types of incidents are amazing! Who says God won't interfere in the world! :)

You are blessed to have been in the kumbh before and now going again!

Snip, If you are westerner and thinking of approching a sadhu, I would suggest to be careful. There are fakes among the real. Since I am originally from the north, sometimes I have heard horror stories so...not trying to scare you but keep your guard. Some theirves pretending to be sadhus can hypnotize you without you knowing and rob you of all your physical possessions. Westerners are easy targets for the theives. These thieves are all over in general and not only among the sadhus.



Pranam Snipji and all

I have met many on my travels, they come in all shape and size. I like to treat them with respect all being bit wary of them. It is impossible to tell the fake from true sadhu. A lot of them will beg for their guru, many times they would conjure up a magic trick and produce rudrask bead or two, I never get impressed by them. While you are on pilgrimage one would like to donate food or money it is the ones that are not satisfied by your donation, I like to stay away from. Like the one that approached me while I was in haridwar two years ago, asked me if I could buy him some food, I said not a problem so I gave him enough to by a thali in Haridwar not satisfied by it I had to remind him that a sadhu has to be satisfied with what he gets and not be greedy, off course it did not go well.
My best experience was when I did my char dham yatra on the way down from Kedar I met this young Sadhu who asked me how long to go and as everyone else do for encouragement I said not far, then I got a 100 rs note and gave it to him I said it will help you have food on the way up. His expression I cant forget, he said to me his not had food for a while and was wondering how will he eat when gets on top. He praised the lord and blessed me and said one who has faith will never go hungry, Bhole sees to that.
Also while in Gangotri here two Moni(vow of silence) Sadhu looked after us, worried about us fed us and served us Prasad yet asked nothing in return.
I must say I do not like the one that smoke, may be I am too hard on them, I must try and see wider picture.

Lets see how many I encounter if I get the chance to go to Kumbh mela, I am working on it.

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
07 February 2010, 07:58 AM
Some theirves pretending to be sadhus can hypnotize you without you knowing and rob you of all your physical possessions. Westerners are easy targets for the theives. These thieves are all over in general and not only among the sadhus.

Namaste Satay and all: Regarding sect, it really makes no difference. Regarding the caution expressed, you can substitute the word 'drug' for hypnotise as well. Never accept 'medicine' from anyone on the street. Go to a pharmacy. I'm not paranoid though as such incidents are few and far between.


Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
07 February 2010, 10:32 AM
Pranam Satay


Pranam Ganesh,



Smoking and drinking bhang is part of the ritual so we should be easy on judging them by that. (though I am not a smoker or drinker my self :))

true but it does make me wary.



Most sadhus want a bit of money because they need some for their food and they need some of it for their 'dhuni' the sacred fire.

yes that is not a problem but the greed factor that bothers me. i like to give on impulse, unfortunately before you know the whole gang is upon you, you can't satisfy them all




You are blessed to have been in the kumbh before and now going again!

i don't know about that and for the record i have not been to Kumbh but i am planing to go let us hope i make it for April.

by the way good advice for snip.

Jai Shree Krishna

satay
12 February 2010, 01:27 PM
Jai Bhole Nath!
http://k41.pbase.com/u39/mreichel/large/20411326.Sadhus.jpg

ranjeetmore
16 February 2010, 01:33 PM
A shaivite is he who has completely attached his mind to Lord Shiva.


There is a story of a hunter devotee who worships Shiv linga with meat as food offering and his spit as milk/water.

Gauri Asks Him,"Just see how disgusting that man is-spitting on your linga !"
Shankara says,"So what ? Just see His mind.He loves Me completely."
Gauri replies ,"This is veda-virrudh.You should punish him now.He's turning away all your regular devotees who come to the same temple."
Shiva says"Okay.Watch."

A terrible earthquake occurs.The hunter at once throws himself on the linga to protect it from falling debris.The other devotees run helter-skelter out of the temple.

Shankara tells Parvati - "See,he is My pure devotee.My heart moves only for such devotees."
Parvati says," Okay Okay,I knew all that.I was just pretending to be ignorant so that these dumb humans can read/hear our conversation and understand.They just want to do karma kaanda all the time."
Shankara laughs and nods,"I know right ! Sri Visnu also complains about it all the time."


All jokes aside,A shaivite is basically he who completely loves Shankara.He doesn't think he himself is shankara,neither does he smoke ganja/etc out of tradition.
He simply wants to worship shankara in the best way possible.

EXACTLY like Prahlada,dhruva,Narada,etc.except that his deity is Shankara.
Only such shaivites cross the ocean of samsara.

Ashvati
15 March 2010, 02:29 PM
The best part of that story is, I could see them doing that.

NayaSurya
16 March 2010, 07:59 PM
A shaivite is he who has completely attached his mind to Lord Shiva.


There is a story of a hunter devotee who worships Shiv linga with meat as food offering and his spit as milk/water.

Gauri Asks Him,"Just see how disgusting that man is-spitting on your linga !"
Shankara says,"So what ? Just see His mind.He loves Me completely."
Gauri replies ,"This is veda-virrudh.You should punish him now.He's turning away all your regular devotees who come to the same temple."
Shiva says"Okay.Watch."

A terrible earthquake occurs.The hunter at once throws himself on the linga to protect it from falling debris.The other devotees run helter-skelter out of the temple.

Shankara tells Parvati - "See,he is My pure devotee.My heart moves only for such devotees."
Parvati says," Okay Okay,I knew all that. I was just pretending to be ignorant so that these dumb humans can read/hear our conversation and understand.They just want to do karma kaanda all the time."
Shankara laughs and nods,"I know right ! Sri Visnu also complains about it all the time."


That story makes me very happy, I really love it<3