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Ramakrishna
07 February 2010, 04:38 PM
Namaste,

I am in a club at school called Coffeehouse Theology. It is a weekly club where students have theological discussions. Usually the discussions relate to Christian theology, since most people in the club are Christian. I have no problem with that, as I enjoy learning about all of the world's religions. However, at the next meeting I will be teaching everyone about Hinduism. Only one person in the club knows a decent amount of information about Hinduism. I was appalled when I told somebody that I was Hindu and they didn't know what that is! :eek:

Here is the club's composition: 6 Christians, 1 atheist, and there is 1 Jewish boy that occasionally shows up. Of the 6 Christians, 1 is Catholic (he is the one who actually knows a bit about Hinduism), 2 are Anglicans and quite open-minded, and the other 3 are Protestant fundamentalist Christians who believe that the Bible is without error.

There is one boy who is especially fundamentalist and he has been trying to convert me. I have listened to him over and over again tell me how Jesus Christ died for our sins and how I need to accept Christ as my savior. I keep on telling him how I respect the core teachings of Christianity and I respect the core teachings of Christ, but I am Hindu and I do not believe that Christ is the only way to attain salvation. Every single day he wants to talk to me after school, so he can preach the gospel to me. He is the one who had never heard of Hinduism before, and recently he has been asking me to explain Hinduism to him in the hallways between classes. I told him how Hinduism is such a complex religion that it is impossible for me to explain it to him in 5 minutes, so instead I'll explain it at the theology club. It will be extremely difficult getting him to understand Hinduism. I told him how Hinduism is the oldest and most complex religion in the world, and he said "It can't be the oldest religion in the world! The Bible says God created the world and Adam and Eve were the first people!" :rolleyes:

It's a good thing that my Catholic friend as well as the my Anglican friend and his sister will be there. They are open-minded Christians who will have my back in case any of the fundamentalists start attacking Hinduism. I will just be covering the basics of Hinduism. I think the most complicated point to get across will be the concept of God in Hinduism. So many people think it is a polytheistic religion when really it is not. However, I think I figured out a great way to explain the concept of God in Hinduism to Christians: compare it the the Trinity. Christians believe in the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They believe in each of those, yet they are all God, just in different forms. That is what Hinduism is like, just that instead of 3 forms, God has millions of forms. I explained that to my Catholic friend and he understood it really well. I will also be explaining how to attain salvation, or moksha, in Hinduism. I will explain the different yogas: bhakti, karma, jnana, and raja. I may also read a few verses from the Bhagavad Gita.

I am really looking forward to this. Some people will understand Hinduism pretty easily, yet I know that it will be difficult to get the fundamentalists especially that one boy to understand it. My goal is not to convert anybody to Hinduism, it is just to get them to understand my religion and at least to respect it. Again, that one boy keeps on trying to convert me and getting me to accept Christ. I have told him that there is nothing else to talk about until I explain Hinduism to him, then we can talk about the differences in our religions.

Please pray that everything goes well and feel free to offer any suggestions that you may have for explaining Hinduism to others.

Thank you.

sambya
07 February 2010, 10:17 PM
well, i have an advice for you .
back in 1890's swami vivekananda(i think you should have heard the name before) made a lonely trip to the west to adress the parliament of religions in chicago , not to convert people but to make them understand about his noble religion . that was a time when christian fundamentalism and orthodoxy still loomed large .
he suceeded in his attempts and soon the world was praising him for his superhuman acheievements . it was through him that hinduism got a rebirth and placed its first steps to the western world .

the situation that you r facing within your little theological society is somewhat similar . so i would suggest you to read through the opening adrresses made by swami viveakananda at the parliament which made him famous instantly and then frame your speech .
it shall be an extremely motivating and interesting read also .
heres the link to the site .----
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_1/addresses_at_the_parliament/v1_c1_response_to_welcome_frame.htm

Spiritualseeker
08 February 2010, 06:28 AM
Namaste good discussion

Let me share with how Paramhansa Yogananda explains the trinity.

"When spirit manifests creation, it becomes the trinity: Father, Son, Holy Ghost, or Sat, Tat, Aum. The Father (sat) is God as the Creator existing beyond creation. The son (Tat) is God's Omnipresent intelligence existing in creation. The holy Ghost (aum) is the vibratory power of God that objectifies or becomes creation.

Many cycles of cosmic creation and dissolution have come and gone in Eternity. At the time of cosmic dissolution, the trinity and all other relativities of creation resolve into the Absolute Spirit."

AUM

Eastern Mind
08 February 2010, 07:16 AM
Ramakrishna: I have done this occasionally when University Comparitive religion classes come for a tour of the temple, or when I get invited to a friend's child's high school class.

I think it really helps to bring info, like pamphlets. A concise version of the Yamas and Niyamas for example. Himalayan Academy publishes such things for such purposes. They work as excellent guides. When is the presentation?

Aum Namasivaya

Bhavu
08 February 2010, 07:31 AM
Dear Sri Ramakrishna,

If you really want to impress upon the group in 5 mins about the greatness of SANATANA DHARMA, then i request you to read thro "Dialogues with Guru" of His Holliness Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Swamigal of Sringeri.

The very first Chapter deals about HINDUISM and His holiness takes the foreigner devotee step by step in making him realise that the teachings of other religions of the world like christianity are but the aspect of Samanya Dharma described in our religion.

May the jagadguru bless you in your endeavors

Sri gurubhyonamah

narayan

ScottMalaysia
09 February 2010, 04:26 AM
As Eastern Mind has said, www.himalayanacademy.com has some good resources. On their main site, click on either "Hindu Basics" or "Publications" to get lots of good material.

Ramakrishna
10 February 2010, 08:56 PM
Namaste,

Thank you everybody for your replies. The discussion was yesterday and it went pretty well. I decided to start off the discussion by asking the members of the club what they already knew about Hinduism. There was a new member, who is a Lutheran, who perfectly explained the concept of God in Hinduism since he learned it from a Hindu friend of his. My Catholic friend then made the comparison of God in Hinduism to the Christian Trinity: there is one God, just in many different forms. I thought explaining the whole concept of God and how Hinduism is not a polytheistic religion would take a lot of time, but it really didn't.

Somebody then asked me a question like "What is the Hindu Bible?" I then explained how there is not one sole text in Hinduism, but there are many different scriptures. I explained how the main ones are the Vedas, the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, and the Puranas. I then passed around my copy of the Bhagavad Gita for them to look at. I explained how even though the Gita is one of the most popular Hindu scriptures, it really is just one chapter of the larger Mahabharata.

I then went into reincarnation, and this is what a good amount of the conversation ended up being about. I was asked many different questions such as:
1. "How can a soul in a plant move up to a higher form in the next life?"
2. "If each soul will eventually attain moksha, then won't the earth eventually run out of life forms?"
3. "Can a human be reincarnated into a lower life form?"
4. "Does the soul have a body once it attains moksha and is united with God?"
I tried answering each of these questions to the best of my ability. Here were the answers I gave to those questions. Please correct me if I made any errors, and I will tell the members of the club at our next meeting.
1. A soul in a plant can move up to a higher form in the next life really by just fulfilling it's purpose. It is not my role to judge or presume one's fate, but it seems obvious that a soul residing in a plant cannot engage in such things as bhakti yoga or karma yoga. Only by fulfilling its purpose and living out it's life can the soul move up to a higher form in its next life.
2. The earth will not eventually run out of life forms because as souls attain moksha and are liberated from this world, God creates new souls. (I just used logic to come up with this answer. I never read this anywhere or anything, I just thought of it there. It makes sense to me, but please correct me if I am wrong.)
3. Yes, a human definitely can be reincarnated into a life form. What you do in this life determines what will happen to you in the next life. For example, if you are a very gluttonous human, you may be reincarnated as a pig in your next life.
4. No, the soul does not have a body once it attains moksha. The soul is bodiless and has no one fixed body. The human body is just one of many bodies that the soul has occupied in the past, and it is ultimately no more important than any other body. Hindus cremate the bodies once they are dead to show that there is no attachment to the body, and once it is dead, the soul has exited that body and the body is pretty much worthless.

After spending a good amount of time talking about reincarnation and answering those questions, somebody then asked the most important question about any religion: How does one attain salvation? I explained the four main yogas: bhakti (devotion to and faith in God), karma (good deeds and actions, selfless service), jnana (knowledge of the scriptures and the absolute) and raja (meditation and inner cultivation). Now I actually have a question for you guys. One cannot just practice one of these yogas and attain moksha, right? For example, somebody cannot just completely and solely devote themselves to bhakti yoga and expect to attain moksha without engaging in karma yoga, jnana yoga, raja yoga, or any others, right? I know a lot of people devote a lot of their time to bhakti, but they still engage in karma yoga and the others, right? This actually ties into one of the fundamental disagreements between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics believe that faith (bhakti) and good works (karma) are necessary to attain salvation, while most Protestants believe that faith alone (bhakti) can gain them salvation. I agree with the Catholic view, and I always thought the same applies to Hinduism. That's why when I was explaining how to attain moksha, I said how faith in God alone (bhakti) cannot get you moksha. You must also practice the other yogas as well, particularly good deeds and selfless actions (karma yoga). I know there are people that devote most of their time to bhakti by chanting the Lord's names and such, but don't they still engage in at lease some karma yoga, raja yoga, or any other since they know that they are still necessary to attain moksha?

Anyway, I explained how you need a combination of the different yogas to attain moksha, or salvation. That one fundamentalist Christian boy that I mentioned in the original post has said in the past how he is "100% sure" that he is going to heaven. I then mentioned that in Hinduism, one can never be assured that they will attain moksha. That pretty much sidetracked the whole conversation and the rest of the discussion was pretty much about if somebody can be 100% sure that they will attain salvation, attain moksha, or whatever you would like to call it. There are 4 people in the club who are so sure that they are going to heaven, and the rest of the people including me disagree with them. Please feel free to share your opinion on that, or maybe I will start another thread for that.

Overall, I think the discussion went well. I feel that everybody now has a much better understanding of Hinduism, whether they agree with it or not. My Catholic friend and a few others in the group seemed like they liked what they heard, while the fundamentalist Christians didn't really show a reaction :). The fundamentalist boy who has been trying to convert me actually left the club early because he had to go to rugby practice, although he did hear a good amount of the conversation. It should be interesting to see now what he will say to me, since he finally knows what I believe. I thank you all once again for your suggestions. I actually used some information from the Himalayan Academy website, and I probably will print out copies to bring to the next meeting. Please correct me if any of my answers to the questions about reincarnation were in any way incorrect.

Hare Krishna

sambya
11 February 2010, 12:20 AM
hi ramakrishna ,
im glad that your conversation went off easily and succesfully . you see , god himself directs each and every action of ours . it was his will that you succeed and you did . congratulations for that .

however i just want to change( rather provide you with a better thought) your thought in one area . soul is niether created nor destroyed . soul is eternal both in advaitic and dvatic philosophical systems . if something is created it shall also get destroyed in time . but soul as per hindu understanding does not perish . therefore souls does not have a 'creation' as we see in christian thought . in advaita systems soul is identical with god .

firstly very few souls actually attain moksha . the overwhelming majority remains in material existence . there would never be a time when all the souls would attain moksha simultaneously . before such a stage could be reached the kalpa would end and creation itself revert back to its primordial state ...only to spring forward again in the upcoming kalpa . this is the endless state of expansion and contraction of brahman .

now comes your second question -- can one exclusively practise one of the yogas and attain moksha ?

i think the line of distinction between the three yoga's are pretty permeable and each incorporates the elements of other in its system .

for example consider a bhakti yogi who surrenders everything to krishna at the end of every work that he performs . every work that he is doing is being done in a mood of selfless service to krishna as his servant . this involves accepting both good and bad as they come in one's life as his will . this is actually karma yoga but is also a part of bhakti disciplines . now think of karma yoga . we read how one should offer the fruits of action to the lord and not crave for results . this leads to remembrance of the lord , which creates a element of bhakti yoga . all these are interlinked together and cannot be seperated . we determine whether one is karma yogi or bhakti yogi looking at what predominates in that person .

Bhavu
11 February 2010, 03:32 AM
I think these paths - Bhakti, Karma, Raja, Jnana yoga are steps towards attaining moksha. Each step taking the seeker closer to the state of salvation. To take up any of these paths really depends on the mental capacity of spiritual aspirant. Here GURU's guidence is a must.

Eastern Mind
11 February 2010, 07:23 AM
Vanakkam Ramakrishna:

I think you did an admirable job. As long as t the people went away with a sense of the validity, or even greatness of Sanatana Dharma, you did well.

Because of sambya's responses to the same questions, I feel it helpful to point out another line.

When I teach, the FIRST thing I explain is the vastness. After that, I use words like 'generally Hindus think ...: and sometimes I'll ask of the students .."Do you want what most Hindus think, or do you want what I personally think?"

Now this can be a daunting task, because I know what I think, but sometimes I am not sure of the general consensus... (Devoteeji knows what I'm speaking of)

Students may have gone away from your presentation thinking that 'Now I know w hy Hindus believe" when in reality they have no clue. Most of us in Hinduism cannot see the vastness, myself included. I'm always encountering new ideas that expand my view of Hindu Solidarity.

So I personally disagree with a couple of your points, and also with sambyas. Again we face the problem of projecting one's beliefs out and on to the entire populace, or ethnocentricity. This is only natural given the diversity of Hinduism. Your last sentence says 'please correct me' . You are not incorrect so how can I or anyone correct you. You gave your views as beast as you knew how.

I do know how Himalayan Academy works. They have two main goals. One is a narrow traditional path of Saivism, and the other is the broader goal of Hindu Solidarity. The teachings you get when you ask or do what you did is their attempt to bring out the consensus of Hindus everywhere, or Hindu Solidarity. If you sign up for their courses, on the other hand, and want to try to choose a sampradaya within Hinduism to follow, then you get the teachings of that sampradaya.

Aum Namasivaya

sambya
11 February 2010, 08:16 AM
So I personally disagree with a couple of your points, and also with sambyas. Again we face the problem of projecting one's beliefs out and on to the entire populace, or ethnocentricity. This is only natural given the diversity of Hinduism. Your last sentence says 'please correct me' . You are not incorrect so how can I or anyone correct you. You gave your views as beast as you knew how.



namaste eastern mind . its true that hinduism is so vast and complex it is factually impossible to pinpoint something and term it as a 'norm' . it is the faith of most paradoxical opposites .

however i always appreciate your endeavour to provide the most impartial point of view .

strictly speaking we are all under influence of our thought process . we cannot venture beyond what data we have stored in our brains . our culture , enviorment etc all shape our thinking and no human can ever come out of this !

so i think humanity has been projecting one's belief on the other right since the begining , be it scientists , preachers or politicians . its the question of how logical and acceptable your beilef is to others ! haha;)

pranaam .

Ramakrishna
16 February 2010, 02:41 PM
however i just want to change( rather provide you with a better thought) your thought in one area . soul is niether created nor destroyed . soul is eternal both in advaitic and dvatic philosophical systems . if something is created it shall also get destroyed in time . but soul as per hindu understanding does not perish . therefore souls does not have a 'creation' as we see in christian thought . in advaita systems soul is identical with god .

firstly very few souls actually attain moksha . the overwhelming majority remains in material existence . there would never be a time when all the souls would attain moksha simultaneously . before such a stage could be reached the kalpa would end and creation itself revert back to its primordial state ...only to spring forward again in the upcoming kalpa . this is the endless state of expansion and contraction of brahman .


Namaste sambya

One thing I do not understand is that if new souls cannot be created, then how is the earth's population constantly increasing? I understand what you are saying, how the soul is immortal and very few souls actually attain moksha. But how would you explain the growing population of the earth? Wouldn't new souls have to be created to fit the constantly growing population of the world?

Eastern Mind
16 February 2010, 04:18 PM
Vannakkam all:

There is a lot of diverse opinions on this thread. I shall add to that diversity, hopefully in a humbe enough way not to insult anyone.

"soul is eternal both in advaitic and dvaitic schools"

My belief is that the individual soul is not eternal. The essence of the soul would be. The final state is absorption by God, as water is into water, with all identity as a drop of water being lost in God-consciousness.

It is God's nature to 'create' souls although that may not be the correct term. A more accurate word might be emanate. But this is not done on a lineaer time continuim. Therefore, the number of souls can vary in any given time. It would seem that right now in the period of Kaliyuga there would naturally be more souls.

But this philosophy is beyond me and many and probably not something that we would begin with when someone asks us about our faith. To such questions I would most likely respond that I didn't know and that there are several variances within the religion.

Aum Namasivaya

Bhavu
17 February 2010, 12:51 AM
Namaste sambya

One thing I do not understand is that if new souls cannot be created, then how is the earth's population constantly increasing?

Of human race you mean?

Could it be the souls of extinct animals because of human exploitation & those killed by man for food & pleasure http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon5.gif.

They are aquiring Punyam and taking birth as humanshttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Wonder what is in store for us in our next birthhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Pranam

Ramakrishna
17 February 2010, 08:07 PM
Of human race you mean?

Could it be the souls of extinct animals because of human exploitation & those killed by man for food & pleasure http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon5.gif.

They are aquiring Punyam and taking birth as humanshttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Wonder what is in store for us in our next birthhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Pranam

Namaste Bhavu,

That seems to make sense. Although I was talking about all forms of life. Not just humans, but any other animal in the animal kingdom, plants, bacteria, fungi, etc. There are just so many living organisms of all kinds on the earth, and each one of them has a unique soul. It just puzzles me how the population of not only humans, but all living organisms continues to grow, but new souls are not created?

Reincarnation always seemed to make a lot of sense to me. I have been a vegetarian since I was 9 years old, and I have always showed great respect to all animals. I just never believed the concept that other religions had towards animals, that we humans can exercise dominion over them and exploit them to our liking. I feel that just as we live and have a soul, every other living organism also lives and has a soul as well.

But now with this simple question I am beginning to doubt reincarnation. I mean, to me the logical answer seemed that Brahman creates new souls, or new souls are emanated from Brahman. To me that seemed to explain the ever-growing population of life forms on earth: new souls would be created or emanated, start off in a low life form such as bacteria or fungi or something, and then gradually move up to higher life forms as it strives to attain moksha. But some people are saying that new souls are not created or emanated? I am not too well versed on the Hindu scriptures (although I'm working on it :)), but do any of the scriptures say anything about this? Does anybody have any other explanations or answers to this my question?

Perhaps I am thinking too hard into this? :confused:

Hare Krishna

sanjaya
18 February 2010, 01:27 AM
Hi Ramakrishna. I too have always simply assumed that God creates new souls at will. Does anyone know of any Hindu text which states that souls are somehow a "conserved quantity?"

atanu
18 February 2010, 03:30 AM
Hi Ramakrishna. I too have always simply assumed that God creates new souls at will. Does anyone know of any Hindu text which states that souls are somehow a "conserved quantity?"

Namaste Sanjaya,

Brahma Sutra
Section III

Topic-10: Birth and Death
16. The mention of birth and death must be in the primary sense in relation to the moving and the motionless; in relation to the soul it must be in a secondary sense, the application (of such words) being possible when a body is present.


Topic-11: Origin of the Soul
17. The individual soul has no origin; because the Upanishads do not mention this, because its eternality is known from them and (because of other reasons).

Topic-12: Eternally Conscious Soul
18. The soul is eternally a cognizer for this very reason (of being free from origin and dissolution).

------------------
The confusion always arises since sentience (and/or attributes) is assumed as same as the soul.

Om Namah Shivaya

Ramakrishna
27 February 2010, 08:50 PM
Namaste all,

Ok well I thought it through, and after thinking about another thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5390) that deals with the nature of souls, I have come to the conclusion that new souls are not created, but rather emanated from Brahman. Aren't all souls (atmans) just part of Brahman? This would fit the statement: "A soul cannot be created of destroyed". New souls aren't created, since they are all part of Brahman, who is timeless. However, new souls are emanated from Brahman as other souls attain moksha and are united with Brahman. This explains the growing population of the earth, even as souls leave this earth as they attain moksha.

This explanation goes back to what Eastern Mind first said earlier in this thread, that new souls aren't created but rather they are emanated. Therefore, this also goes hand in hand with what Lord Krishna said in the Gita, that the soul is neither created nor destroyed. It is not created because it is Brahman, who is timeless and above all else.

I am now more convinced than ever of reincarnation :)

Eastern Mind
27 February 2010, 09:24 PM
I am now more convinced than ever of reincarnation :)

Namaste:

There was a thread around here somewhere on that. Maybe next lifetime I'll find it.

The gist, if I remember right, was that most of us need no proof.

Aum Namasivaya

Jivattatva
27 February 2010, 10:35 PM
Namaste sambya

One thing I do not understand is that if new souls cannot be created, then how is the earth's population constantly increasing? I understand what you are saying, how the soul is immortal and very few souls actually attain moksha. But how would you explain the growing population of the earth? Wouldn't new souls have to be created to fit the constantly growing population of the world?



I think the problem is that most of us always think in terms of linear time. past, present, furture. Like one thing or event coming one after the other.

But there is another concept such as circular time. Like one giant circle, there is no beginning and end. No start and finish. So there is no question of soul in the cycle of beginningless birth and death reaching the end of the line, running out of "souls") and thus the need for souls to be produced.