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saidevo
30 August 2006, 11:04 AM
This is in reply to the observations of sm78 in the thread 'Concept of God in Islam'. Since this reply digresses from the thread topic, I have started this new thread. Members may highlight here the shortcomings of Abrahamic Religions, the false propaganda they spread and the past atrocities committed by their followers, besides discussing how to be proactive in our fight against the adharmic forces.



Btw, the city you (and I) live in is getting flooded with bangladeshi illegal immigrants...in a few decades we may start seeing the problems.
...

Can you please try putting these arguments to likes of Zakir Naik. I have heard he regularly entertains guests from other religions and proves Islam is the root of other religions.
...

My only concern is trying to educate some hindu minds about their duty, so that the ill fate of being born in a mleccha religion doesn't destroy their future evolution. Yes this is the only fear I have for hindu's(myself included).


Our Hindu acharayas these days have come out in support of both propagating Sanatana Dharma and converting willing souls to our fold (without any compulsion or coercion on our part). Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami has an entire section titled Hinduism Has Always Accepted Adoptives and Converts in his book How to Become a (Better) Hindu, and has worked out the modalities for such conversions. (Available for download at: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/index.html)

I have always wondered why we do not take up religious discussions with our Islamic and Christian friends, who are as educated as we are, and originally belonged to our Hindu tradition. What could be the reason -- apathy, diffidence or an inherent fear of being targeted? How many of us are aware of the limitations and falsities of the adharmic religions and of the atrocities their followers committed in the world in general and to us in particular, in the name of religion?



Sita Ram Goel, the great patriot and courageous soldier of Sanatana Dharma, says in his book Defence of Hindu Society (available for download at http://www.voi.org/)

The first principle which Hindu society has to observe while preparing its defence is that it will stop processing and evaluating its own heritage in terms of ideas and ideals projected by closed creeds and pretentious ideologies. On the contrary, Hindu society will henceforward process and evaluate the heritage of these creeds and ideologies in terms of its own categories of thought, and find out the real worth of Christian, Islamic, Communist, and Modernist claims. (Italics mine)


As you say, the first step is that we should know our religion with conviction and educate the grass roots. At the same time, it is our dharma to fight the adharmic forces that try to convert Hindus to their fold by invasion (the refugees) and by every other unethical means.

Most of us Hindus are by nature unwilling (not incapable) to fight the adharmic forces physically, mainly because of apathy and diffidence, but fortunately, our Hindu youth today are increasingly being aware of this necessity.

So the other way is to fight the adharmic forces at the intellectual level, like our first guru Adi Sankaracharya did. A situation that is more or less similar to the times of Sankara exists in our Bharat today. With the ever worsening influence of Kali, we need several Sankaras from different levels to undertake the fight at the intellectual level. Therefore, in today's circumstances, every Hindu who knows something about Sanatana Dharma has a dual duty: 1) to learn more and propagate the religion among the less fortunate Hindu souls and 2) to be proactive at the intellectual level to debate with and defeat the minds that drive these adharmic forces. Let us not at least deride our brothers who take the initiative and courage in this task.

The ubiquitous Internet today is increasingly becoming the preferred medium of expression for everyone who is literate. It is an ideal medium for us to be proactive. The religious forums and groups all around the Net are dominated by Christians and Muslims, who indulge in a subtle form of conversion by talking nonsense about Sanatana Dharma. Worse, they adopt Hindu ways and names, pretend to be concerned and try their tricks with the gullible. If a Zakir Naik pretends to know our scriptures and tries to convince that Islam is the root of all religions, a Benny Hynn conducts bogus prayer meetings that does nothing but revile Hindu Gods and practices, with government support. If the missioneries at the village level tell our rustic people that their Mariamma is the same as Mary, mother of Jesus, their intellectual counterparts try to find Christ Consciousness in Hinduism.

Conversion by coersion and money power is taking place today at all levels: tribals, villagers and even our educated youth who are lured with money, job and other material comforts. The number of inter-religious marriages are increasing and in most cases the Hindu family tree gets stopped.

What do we do in these circumstances? Let those of us who are ill-prepared to be proactive at the physical level, do it at the intellectual level, in every possible way. We might be fortunate enough to live the rest of our lives as Hindu, but are we so sure of our children and the lineage therefrom? The end of Kali is far, far away, and if we let Sanatana Dharma down during our own lifetime, every one us is sure to be born in the mlecha religion in the next birth.

satay
30 August 2006, 01:54 PM
I agree 100%.

We need to have intellectual debates and at the same time continue with the effort of showing that Sanatana Dharma is the root of all religions. Tha adharmic relgions are adharmic because the followers didn't understand the message properly and corrupted with their tribal like mentality and rituals.

sm78
31 August 2006, 03:48 AM
Namaste Saidevo,

I like Satay agree 100% with each of your words. Very very sane post in this age of confusion.

The sweep of universalism which has plagued hinduism for last couple of centuries is really eating into our existence.

saidevo
31 August 2006, 06:42 AM
Hindu Dharma Defense Links

Below is a list of links where Hindu Dharma defense activities are going on.

http://www.christianaggression.com/
http://www.haindavakeralam.org/Default.aspx
http://www.hindujagruti.org/
http://news.hinduworld.com/index.php
http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/

Members may add to these links and participate in the petitions, opinion poles, article feedbacks found in these links.

satay
31 August 2006, 10:25 AM
From here on we move to the other forum...

satay
28 January 2007, 11:52 AM
Rise Bharata!

Today's indian youth is confused about the religion of the devas. We are ashamed to say that we pray to several gods. Why this shame, why this guilt? I would like to say that it is the fault of missionaries and case closed, however, as much as I would like to say that, the truth is that our own so called hindu sages and mahatama and samis and general hindus are as much responsible as any outsider ready to 'save' the idol worshippers of the land of bharata.

Why not start learning about the only true way of life known as sanatana dharma and start being proud of it? It's about time, wouldn't you agree?

Now that the missionaries of adharmic religions have had their chance with the poorest of poor indians, they seem to be moving to the next level of society, pretending to rise above the label and trying to dilute the scripture and teachings of rishis with their own corrupted agendas.

One basic thing to remember is this that hinduism is not universalism, it is not new age, it is not anything and everything that you can come up it. sanatana dharma has its own teachings, scriptures, understanding of the nature of god, rituals, rites.

Be proud of being a sanatani, say it with pride!

yajvan
28 January 2007, 08:33 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Rise Bharata!
Today's indian youth is confused about the religion of the devas. We are ashamed to say that we pray to several gods. Why this shame, why this guilt? I would like to say that it is the fault of missionaries and case closed, however, as much as I would like to say that, the truth is that our own so called hindu sages and mahatama and samis and general hindus are as much responsible as any outsider ready to 'save' the idol worshippers of the land of bharata.

Why not start learning about the only true way of life known as sanatana dharma and start being proud of it? It's about time, wouldn't you agree?

Now that the missionaries of adharmic religions have had their chance with the poorest of poor indians, they seem to be moving to the next level of society, pretending to rise above the label and trying to dilute the scripture and teachings of rishis with their own corrupted agendas.

One basic thing to remember is this that hinduism is not universalism, it is not new age, it is not anything and everything that you can come up it. sanatana dharma has its own teachings, scriptures, understanding of the nature of god, rituals, rites.


Namaste satay,
Thank you for you zeal and inspiration. Since I do not reside in India, I do not see the state/condition you describe. It's my contention that one has to grow in the spirit to feel good about thier core dharma. No shame comes in, as one is grounded in the Truth, and IT acts as the umbrella that shields the devotee. If there is this embarrassment, it is the sign of the times.
For the various murthi's - they're expressions of HIM - the diversity of all HIS divine qualities made manifest. In Vedic times ( Sat yuga) the Divine did not require a murthi for one to cast their eyes on. As one grows and unfolds the SELF, one realizes that God is found in a drop of rain, as in the murthi at the temple. May we revist this time soon!

This pride that is mentioned is a powerful thing... it has the ability to make one better then another... it's the humbleness that is strength. Yet this humbleness - we cannot feel that we are kicked around like a football. There needs to be equal respect for all - this comes with maturity of the spirit, yes?
This pride can be fueled by the ego and that makes one more self-FULL then self-less. For me I would choose SELF-full. Then the difference of one religion ( relig or to tie, fasten + ligāre to bind - that is bind one back to the Source) to another is of little consequence.
To me, thinking of differences in each person possessed of atman one may wish to suggest that I am different from you and others because of the shoes I wear. An outward appearence of difference with no relevence! That I am Japanese, or American, or Indian, these 'flavors' of HIS expression is the delight of HIS expansion in HIS creation.

So do we step on the ego, or on pride and force a shut down? for me, no. We expand the container of the native to be exhaustive to be universal - where there is delight in diversity, knowing its just play and display of Brahman. We become the ocean (as my teacher has instructed me) - all the rivers run in to it, it has strength and can accept all. Its strength comes from its depth of Being, of fullness.

"Self-confidence is not a feeling of superiority, but of independence."
Lama Yeshe

Let noble thoughts come to us from every side Rig-Veda, 1-89-i

saidevo
04 February 2007, 08:51 AM
Came across this in Kanchi Forum:

A must hear speech to all Hindus in Kerala by Smt. K.P. Sasikala Teacher (Hindu Aikya Vedi state leader) . Sasikala teacher rips apart the secular mask of communists and exposes the true colour of Communists and Jehadis in the state.

http://www.haindavakeralam.org/speach1.aspx?pageid=2884

satay
04 February 2007, 05:12 PM
Came across this in Kanchi Forum:

A must hear speech to all Hindus in Kerala by Smt. K.P. Sasikala Teacher (Hindu Aikya Vedi state leader) . Sasikala teacher rips apart the secular mask of communists and exposes the true colour of Communists and Jehadis in the state.

http://www.haindavakeralam.org/speach1.aspx?pageid=2884

namaskar,
wish it was in hindi!!! I don't understand...

satay
04 February 2007, 05:20 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste satay,

This pride that is mentioned is a powerful thing... it has the ability to make one better then another... it's the humbleness that is strength. Yet this humbleness - we cannot feel that we are kicked around like a football. There needs to be equal respect for all - this comes with maturity of the spirit, yes?
This pride can be fueled by the ego and that makes one more self-FULL then self-less. For me I would choose SELF-full. Then the difference of one religion ( relig or to tie, fasten + ligāre to bind - that is bind one back to the Source) to another is of little consequence.
To me, thinking of differences in each person possessed of atman one may wish to suggest that I am different from you and others because of the shoes I wear. An outward appearence of difference with no relevence! That I am Japanese, or American, or Indian, these 'flavors' of HIS expression is the delight of HIS expansion in HIS creation.

So do we step on the ego, or on pride and force a shut down? for me, no. We expand the container of the native to be exhaustive to be universal - where there is delight in diversity, knowing its just play and display of Brahman. We become the ocean (as my teacher has instructed me) - all the rivers run in to it, it has strength and can accept all. Its strength comes from its depth of Being, of fullness.

"Self-confidence is not a feeling of superiority, but of independence."
Lama Yeshe

Let noble thoughts come to us from every side Rig-Veda, 1-89-i

namaste yajvan!
I see what you are saying, however, respectully, I disagree with some of it.

If difference in all relgions is of no consequence then why are we following sanatana dharma and not islam or any other religion? Why not accept jesus as our only saviour and be done with it? Why not accept the will of 'alah' instead of the inert brahman?

If hindus are not allowed to be proud of who they are, then there is a problem don't you agree? Why can a christian be proud of being a christian and even be so bold to try to shove his religion down the throat of others yet hindus can not be even proud of adhering to the eternal law? why a muslim is proud of being a muslim and a hindu can't even stand up for dharmic way of life?

with respect...

Znanna
04 February 2007, 06:50 PM
Namaste,

This is a two-edged sword, so to say.

"Pride" essentially is dualistic, I think, in that it implies superiority or separateness.

On the other hand, sanatana dharma (and sanskrit) is the most concise yet comprehensive expression of Holy in my opinion and deserves its props.

But Holy is not limited by our expression, regardless of tradition, it simply is.



ZN

Agnideva
04 February 2007, 07:14 PM
Namaste All,

I agree with points other members have made here regarding pride. From a worldly point of view, I would say that pride in one's religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. is definitely important. I would prefer for a person to be proud of who s/he is, rather than to be ashamed of her/himself. But, pride does not and should not mean excessive pride to the point where one becomes intolerant or takes on a "holier than thou" attitude.

OM Shanti,
A.

satay
05 February 2007, 02:46 PM
namaste everyone,

In terms of my comment about pride, it was not my intent to suggest that hindus should become egotistical. My comment is for most hindus who are sleeping right now and our youth is ashamed of being a hindu.

It's like commenting to someone who is starving and requesting them to take food. Yes, there is a problem with over eating but at this point, we are only concerned with the starvation. Over eating causes all kinds of dis-ease is in the back our minds...isn't it?

Nor is there a fear in my mind of missionary nonsense. Missionaries are doing what they are supposed to be doing i.e. according to them it is their duty to shove their religion down other people's throat. As one missionary put it to me very elegantly, "we don't care if you are hindu or whatever, we don't care if it is india or africa or any other place, all we care about the instruction given to us by our Lord to save the heathens." So as you can see, it is their duty to do what they are doing.

What is our duty that is my question.

sm78
06 February 2007, 12:09 AM
Been to visaz quite a few of times now, I see more and more new churches there each time. Evangelism is in full swing in AP with a christian chief minister.

A few months back, I was enjoying the bliss & beauty of the sea in the city beach ... then I saw a group of evangelicals started distributing pamplets about jesus among the public who were trying to have a good time in their own way.

Suddenly all the peace was gone from my mind. I was again in deep sorrow on what to do with religions whose main intent was to spread disruption among others and destroy their way of living. Dharma is peace. What was happening was disruption of peace. What could be more asuric?

I left the place before they came to me. I only pray that someday I can do more than just refuse a pamplet. Justice wasn't served that day

satay
06 February 2007, 12:29 PM
namaste,
the next time someone tries to shovetheir religion on you, we can politely reply by saying, 'sorry, not shopping for a new religion. thanks'

the bigger question here is what is our duty, how to defend hindu dharma agains the onslaught of adharmic religions as the OP asks. If everything and everyone is the same why follow dharma at all? why not let's all become muslims or christians or something else?

The problem is most of us do what what SM did i.e. leave the situation instead of confronting it. If everyone reacts the same way who is defending the meek and the poorest of the poor?

yajvan
06 February 2007, 02:03 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

namaste yajvan!
I see what you are saying, however, respectully, I disagree with some of it.

If difference in all relgions is of no consequence then why are we following sanatana dharma and not islam or any other religion? Why not accept jesus as our only saviour and be done with it? Why not accept the will of 'alah' instead of the inert brahman?

If hindus are not allowed to be proud of who they are, then there is a problem don't you agree? Why can a christian be proud of being a christian and even be so bold to try to shove his religion down the throat of others yet hindus can not be even proud of adhering to the eternal law? why a muslim is proud of being a muslim and a hindu can't even stand up for dharmic way of life? with respect...

Namaste satay,
Your respsonse is appreciated and spoken well. My point is not of consequence, but one of compassion. THat is, if one cares to look at the Supreme differently, then we respect that view...

Pride is fine, too much pride fuels the ego (was my point) - that makes one think one may be better then another, and I do not subscribe to this.
If one has pride as a Hindu, this is fine and I have no angst over it.

What makes sanatana dharma great is (our) graciousness. We are grounded in the Truth, That all this is Brahman. If one chooses one limb of this Fullness to worship, this is fine. If one sees their master as Jesus, Buddha, Narasimha, Krsna, that is fine. Sanatana Dharma is the blossoming of Bhuma. This is why my teacher has always said, we are born to bless , this we must never forget.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas in a meaningful way.

pranams.

Agnideva
06 February 2007, 04:52 PM
the bigger question here is what is our duty, how to defend hindu dharma agains the onslaught of adharmic religions as the OP asks. If everything and everyone is the same why follow dharma at all? why not let's all become muslims or christians or something else?
Namaste Satay,

I suppose the bigger question at hand here is: does Hindu Dharma teach that everything and every path is the same? Hindu Dharma definitely teaches us to be respectful to all, and to be tolerant of all, there's no doubt about that. But, does Hinduism really say every religion and path is one and the same? By "same" I am not referring to the ultimate goal, I am here referring to the journey. I think the discussion should focus on this particular question.

A.

Agnideva
06 February 2007, 05:19 PM
But, does Hinduism really say every religion and path is one and the same?
As we think about this above question, I thought we could examine this quote from Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (1836-1886):

"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole."

Does he mean to say that all religions are one and the same? If so, why follow one over another? And do modern day Hindus get the idea of "all religions are one and the same" from Sri Ramakrishna?

A.

Znanna
06 February 2007, 09:44 PM
As we think about this above question, I thought we could examine this quote from Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (1836-1886):

"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole."

Does he mean to say that all religions are one and the same? If so, why follow one over another? And do modern day Hindus get the idea of "all religions are one and the same" from Sri Ramakrishna?

A.

(My emphasis added)

In my opinion, Holy *is*. Religions seek to give a symbolic structure so as to preserve knowledge/experience, but to mistake the symbolic structure for Holy sort of defeats the purpose :)

Dharma is not restricted by symbolism, although its expression is deep in images ...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that traditions preserve expression, but the origin if you will of that expression is not restricted by tradition, it is more, um, encompassing, more universal than any particular.

JMO, as I am not Hindu nor any particular proclivity ... it is the sameness not the difference which intrigues me.


Namaste,
ZN

saidevo
06 February 2007, 10:14 PM
Namaste Yajvan.



What makes sanatana dharma great is (our) graciousness. We are grounded in the Truth, That all this is Brahman. If one chooses one limb of this Fullness to worship, this is fine. If one sees their master as Jesus, Buddha, Narasimha, Krsna, that is fine. Sanatana Dharma is the blossoming of Bhuma. This is why my teacher has always said, we are born to bless , this we must never forget.


The uniqueness of Sanatana Dharma is that right from the most illiterate who is gullible and believes in blind supererstitions and sentiments to the Self-realized sage knows and says that God is One, call Him/It by any name. The difference lies only in the degree of realization.

The conflict arises when the God of one path is projected as superior to others. We have conflicts among our own Hindu sects and debate if Shiva or Vishnu or Krishna is superior, but the none of the sects attempts to force its concepts on the others or convert others to its path. This is true of all Indian religions. Whereas the Western religions are exclusive, aggressive, belligerent and even violent, and attempt to bring the whole world under their own religions umbrella that denies individual freedom for seeking God. This is what we should fight against.

It is strange, and smacks of hypocrisy that the Western faiths that believe in democracy as the most refined form of governance try to be autocratic and despotic when it comes to religion. And their followers blindly submit to religious authority, unlike us Hindus.

saidevo
06 February 2007, 10:39 PM
Namaste Satay.



the next time someone tries to shovetheir religion on you, we can politely reply by saying, 'sorry, not shopping for a new religion. thanks'


I think we must do more than that: we must debate their views and concepts on the spot. Better, we might invite them for a debate with a group of us. Intellectual aggression is not lack of politeness. We must try to make them understand the Hindu concept of God, why our Brahman and the Trinity under Him are far superior philosophy.

I tried this approach in a limited way, when two Christian women and a man came to my house one afternoon. That was in the heart of Mylapore, Chennai, an area of Hindu tradition and values! They told me that they belonged to the Jehovah's Witness group. I knew nothing about Jehovah and only later checked it on the Net. The fun was that they said the JW was not a Christian sect and that their God Jehovah was superior to every other God, including 'Jesus and your Shiva and Vishnu to whom He taught meditation!' They gave me a couple of pamphlets.

There was large photograph of Bhagavan Satya Sai Baba in their full view behind my back. I told them, "If you want to debate about your God versus ours, I am ready, and can prove how your approach lacks philosophical and religious depth. Since I believe in my Gods I don't need your Jehovah or switch over to your ways of worship. We have a God in Human form right now, the photograph you see here. You know what he says? He says his mission is not to establish a superior form of Hinduism and covert people to that path, but to see that as his devotee, a Christian becomes a better Christian, a Hindu a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim and so on. His mission is to unite people not divide them on religion. So please try to see the reason and give up your ways against humanity. You are welcome to my house as a guest, as a friend with mutual appreciation, but not as a missionary."

Though they nodded their heads in agreement and went away, I was sure that they would never change.

saidevo
07 February 2007, 12:36 AM
Namaste MG.



Is missionaries a new problem in India? Or has it been going on a long time? Is it just Jehovah's Witness or Christians also?


The missionaries activities started in the British Rule. TM Macaulay, Max Mueller and others effectly conspired to destroy the Hindu values, divide them by preferential treatment of castes, pitting Hindus and Muslims against each other, and many other viley ways. Here are two quotes from Macaulay that prove the point:



1. Lord Macaulay's address to the British Parliament on February 2, 1835: "I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is its spiritual and cultural heritage... And, therefore, I propose that we replace its old and ancient education system, its culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation."

2. "...It is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect..."


Macaulay's sons and daughters are rampant in modern India spread widely across the society and the media.

It is mainly the RC church that indulges in missionary activities; the others, I think, are not that aggressive, but lurking in the background and deluding people with their own dogma. A typical way is to enter a poor man's house and pretend to pray, say for his ailing wife. Then give her a normal medicine in the name of Jesus, and when she gets cured, declare that it was her faith to Jesus that cured her, so the family much part ways with their pagan religion.

There is a proverb in Tamil that the house where a tortoise enters or an ameena (a person from the lawcourt) enters would come to ruins. We need to add the missionary to this list today.

Missionaries won't be a problem at all in India, if the Central and State governments do not aid and abet them in their politics for minority vote bank. The state of Gujarat where BJP rules is now the number one state in India in progress and welfare. This state has a law against religious conversion by coercion or enticement. Such laws should be enacted by governments of all states not just in India, but the world over, where democracy is the form of government.

Ganeshprasad
07 February 2007, 07:20 AM
Pranam


namaste everyone,

What is our duty that is my question.



To follow our Dharma is our foremost duty, this path is not paved with rose petals infect it is like walking on a double edge sword. The biggest danger I perceive is not from the evangelical push nor from the mulas who actually are hell bent in destroying even a slightest bit off peace that they so desire. For centuries they ruled us, one with sword and other with cohesion yet against all the odds the Dharma still survive.why, because Vedas means knowledge and the truth always prevail. Our ancestors were steadfast in their faith and this other religions are like holding candle in front of the sun.

In my view the material pursuit is the biggest danger, what those outside influence could not do for centuries, the relentless pursuit of all thing material a very fertile ground for them to move back in.

Our Dharma is based on tapa and sacrifices and if that was not enough we have some how to navigate our way out of superstition, the misinformation of varnashram system and various different method of worship and concepts, enough to confuse anyone.

I see lot of temples in India lacking in their duty to improve the surroundings and giving the necessary knowledge, instead all they are after is your money, this must change


There are no easy answer or solutions but we must persevere in our own pursuit of truth and trough which if we exhibit tranquility and happiness, other surely would follow after all that is what we are hankering for, no amount of material possession has ever provided this.


Jai Shree Krishna

sm78
07 February 2007, 07:41 AM
It is mainly the RC church that indulges in missionary activities; the others, I think, are not that aggressive, but lurking in the background and deluding people with their own dogma. A typical way is to enter a poor man's house and pretend to pray, say for his ailing wife. Then give her a normal medicine in the name of Jesus, and when she gets cured, declare that it was her faith to Jesus that cured her, so the family much part ways with their pagan religion.

Namaste Saidevo,

RC is more sophisticated and tried such means as "Catholic Ashrams" where Catholic preists would dress up in the traditional orange robes of a sannyasin in a hope that culture doesn't provide a barrier to Jesus. (One can only laugh at the level of stupidity and mis-understanding of another culture).

However highest conversion success, particularly among the tribals and backward classes belong to hardcore Baptists. Baptists unlike catholics are blut against anything non-christian, but still manage more conversion simpley because they go the distance none else goes ~ u will find baptist missions deep in the tribal forrest belts of India.

It is true that if Govt is on side of dharma missionaries will be a non-problem. My religion tells me that if govt is right then nothing will be a problem for central administration of a society holds the key to the destiny of the society. India as a whole have not seen a dharmic govt since about 1200 years ? ;)

satay
07 February 2007, 08:46 AM
namaste everyone,

I have to agree with singhi. Baptists are ruder in the sense that they have no sympathy for anyone outside of their beliefs including RCs and people that belong to other 2000 christian denominations.

This 'Missionary problem' existed from the British raj and in the days of our respected gandhi yet missionaries had limited success. The limited success was due to the fact that indians were still kind of half awake (or is it half asleep) and people like vivekanand and gandhi etc. shut the missionaries down with their own 'you are all gods!' message.

However, situation today is much much worse because missionaries are employing all unethical tactics as well as our own youth is sleeping and not competent enough to stand up to any of this. On top of that as soon as even a single hindu speaks out like saidevo did here, he is labelled a militant hindu and such titles.

This 'all paths leads to GOD' is supported by the LORD in his instructions in Gita, however, are all paths the same?

Ask any christian or muslim are they trying to experience the same GOD as we are. Most christians for example are looking to be with god in the heavens, spend eternity with him, in worship. This implies duality still exists in heaven for eternity.

For those of you who think that all paths are the same, next time, tell a christian, "I am GOD" and see what happens.

Let's examine how adi shankara did it when buddhism was sweeping the nation of bharata, with intellectual debates. Now look at how the bhakti movement contributed to that...by making Buddha an 'avtara' of LORD!!!
In fact, the hindu temple here in our city has Buddha's statue sitting right beside the LORD!

The point here is that today's hindu is in much much worse shape than the hindus in the past this is due to many reasons and the onslaugth of adharmic forces has become as unethical as it possible can be all in the name of GOD!

What is our instruction arjunas?

'All paths lead to me' and 'be my vehicle to annihilate these adharmic forces'

Dust off the copy of your Gita and for God's sake Read it!!

enough for today...

saidevo
07 February 2007, 08:58 AM
Two related current news links:

Evangelisation or Satanism: Cause and effect
http://newstodaynet.com/2007sud/feb07/070207.htm

Hindu and Jewish religious leaders sign declaration
http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1947

satay
07 February 2007, 09:02 AM
Note
This topic is very very delicate and important. There is a lot to think about and dharma depends on how we as santanis act/react to this.

Please allow enough time to understand the situation.

For example for me, I can not comment on this more than a couple of times a day...

sm78
07 February 2007, 09:02 AM
This 'all paths leads to GOD' is supported by the LORD in his instructions in Gita, however, are all paths the same?

Where ?? ... unless u mean Ramakrishna by LORD.

Last 3 chapters of Gita make it very clear that all paths will not lead to God.

Vedas only said that truth can be expressed in many ways, I haven't heard the reverse implication being said in Vedas.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I think no path leads to God, but, God leads to God...that's the final message of Gita as well.

yajvan
07 February 2007, 11:36 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan.

The conflict arises when the God of one path is projected as superior to others.
Namaste saidevo,

you speak wisely .. this has been my point all along this string.
We're gracious with others... to fight that mine-is-better-then-yours shows a lack of clarity and a myopic view of the Truth.

Now, what do the wise say (Vidura , from the Mahabrahata, some say one of the wisest ever on this earth) that may help with this grace?

Forgiveness
There is one only defect in forgiving persons, and not another; that defect is that people take a forgiving person to be weak. That defect however, should not be taken into consideration, for forgiveness is a great power. Forgiveness is a virtue of the weak, and an ornament of the strong. Forgiveness subdues (all) in this world; what is there that forgiveness cannot achieve? What can a wicked person do unto him who carries the sabre of forgiveness in his hand? Fire falling on a grassless ground is extinguished of itself. And unforgiving individual defiles himself with many enormities. Righteousness is the one highest good; and forgiveness is the one supreme peace; knowledge is one supreme contentment; and benevolence, one sole happiness.

Being Noble and Balanced
Sacrifice, study, charity, asceticism, truth, forgiveness, mercy, and contentment constitute the eight different paths of righteousness. The first four of these may be practised from motives of pride, but the last four can exist only in those that are truly noble.


The Company we keep
As fuel that is wet burns with that which is dry, so a sinless man is punished equally with the sinful in consequence of constant association with the latter. Therefore, friendship with the sinful should be avoided. ... Self-knowledge and steadiness, patience and devotion to virtue, competence to keep counsels and charity, - these, O Bharata, never exist in inferior men. Fools seek to injure the wise by false reproaches and evil speeches. The consequence is, that by this they take upon themselves the sins of the wise, while the latter, freed from their sins, are forgiven. In malice lies the strength of the wicked; in criminal code, the strength of kings, in attentions of the weak and of women; and in forgiveness that of the virtuous.

Last and most important, From Sri Krsna (BG3.31) - I will not type it and allow people to look to this chapter in the Bhagavad gita.

pranams,

Ganeshprasad
07 February 2007, 03:18 PM
Pranam yajvan ji

I like your balance view on this subject, and thank you for the wonderful quote from mahabharat on forgiveness, which incidentally I was going to post


We are at this stage in history, after so many years of subjugation; lost as to what is our duty. If we are chasing goals that are not very dharmic we stand very little chance against the religious on-slot from outside.What they could not do in thousands of years we will undo in no time.


"Yato Dhrmah Tato Jayah" - Where Dharma exists victory is guaranteed.

"Dharmo hi paramo loke Dharme satyam pratisthitam"
Dharma is supreme in the world, and truth is based on Dharma
- The Ramayana

So fight we must, just as Krishna says but first we must identify our real enemy.

Protect the Dharma and Dharma will protect us.

Jai Shree Krishna

Agnideva
07 February 2007, 03:59 PM
Namaste All,

Wow! This has been a very interesting discussion so far. To me, one of the most beautiful things about Hinduism is the fullness (like MG said), and the simplicity in what seems utterly complex. What has come down to us is hundreds of generations worth of realizations based on personal experiences of countless wise men and women. The fact that Hinduism is very open-minded when it comes to other religions and does not condemn anyone for not believing in what we do, is something I take pride in. I would never want that to go away, ever! I can see the beauty in Jesus’ teachings, in Buddha’s teachings, in Guru Nanak’s teachings and can fully appreciate them all while still being a good Hindu. Seeing the sameness in difference - as Znanna says - it intrigues me as well. Underneath all the differences, I do believe there is oneness. From that angle, I know why Sri Ramakrishna said the things he said; I know why Yogananda quotes from the Bible in his book; and I can understand why the Hindu universalist movement has gained ground in the last 200 years.

But, does that mean we should dilute Hindu doctrine with universalism, and is Hindu doctrine essentially universalism? I tend to think not. I personally subscribe to the idea (and this is not my original idea) that there are two dimensions to modern Hindu Dharma: the universal dimension and the sampradaya (sectarian) dimension. On the one hand, we can appreciate that there is truth and Divinely-inspired wisdom in all faiths. On the other hand, we also need to be true to the particular tradition we follow, and preserve it. In my opinion, Sri Ramakrishna also did this. He was a mystic. He experimented with the teachings of different religions, and declared that no religion is necessarily wrong, but he continued to be a Shakta Hindu, and worshipped Mother Kali all his life. He didn’t tell anyone to give up their religion, to dilute it down, or become something they are not. He never declared “everything is one and same” at least as far as I know.

So, how do we protect the Dharma? By disseminating right knowledge. I fully agree with Ganesh Prasad on this point. It is our dharma to explain the Dharma in a rational and clear manner, and end the endless confusion. Hindu Dharma has left no stone unturned as far as theological and philosophical insights go. There is also a lot of medieval baggage in Indian Hinduism that needs to go (and is going, but ever so slowly). There is no other way. A person who is knowledgeable, who is capable of questioning the doctrines being fed to him will not accept anything at face value.

Na hi jnanena sadrisham pavitram iha vidyate
Verily there is no purifier in this world greater than knowledge.

OM Shanti,
A.

satay
07 February 2007, 07:00 PM
namaste all,
After further review of this thread, I feel that my own posts might be against the main rule of the site 'positive presentation of hindu dharma'.

Therefore, I am going to resign from this discussion. I don't want to disturb the peace of the forum!

Sorry, If I hurt anyone's feelings here.

willie
07 February 2007, 09:34 PM
I have been looking at this conversation and the words are the same ones that started a lot of wars. Everyone seems the think that the religion or way of life they follow is the right or best way. Well , it is not.

The world is vastly different from the one that existed when most religious books were written and the ways of life in those books are mostly out of date today. Some where someone have to realise the in the modern work life is different and so the way of life has to be different. And improved lifestyle or and updated view of brahman and spirituality.

Like the modern military the war that these words are fighing is long over and the tactics are no longer effective. Modern times requires different methods and in the persent there are distraction that were not present in the past. People want more things because people want to sell these things and advertisements are constant today, people get to see how people in other countries live and wonder " why cannot I live that way" and they want a better life and better job.

Slowly but sure religions are falling apart because it has offered nothing in a spiritual sence to the follower and so the followers are walking off and looking for a better deal other places. Why do you think the missionaries are in india anyway? Probably because people back home give then the stiff arm. And a lot of denominations won't even fund missionaries any more.

Agnideva
07 February 2007, 09:57 PM
I followed the link to Agnideva's home page several days ago and have been reading it. Great website!

Just a little disclaimer. I am in no way affiliated with Shaivam.org. The site is listed in my profile as "my homepage" because it happens to be one of my favorite sites on Hinduism and Shaivism. :)

Ganeshprasad
08 February 2007, 12:36 PM
Pranam Satay ji


namaste all,
After further review of this thread, I feel that my own posts might be against the main rule of the site 'positive presentation of hindu dharma'.

Therefore, I am going to resign from this discussion. I don't want to disturb the peace of the forum!

Sorry, If I hurt anyone's feelings here.


I don’t know why you feel you need to be sorry or indeed resign from this discussion(ps i see you care much to much so there is no danger)

The fire the drive and passion for Dharma should never be extinguish all we need is to channel it in right direction, (what is the right direction) I certainly do not have the answer but we all have our views.

Believe me I feel just as passionate, upset and frustrated, if not more, when in the name of religion, by cohesion or inducement the poor and the tribal people are converted. We will be failing in our duty if we just stood by and did nothing.That would be nothing sort of cowardice.

The chink in the armor, as I see it is our own drive for imitating and westernize at the expense of our culture and values, this would make a very fertile ground for anti Hindu Dharma to move in.(sorry for harping on)

We have to tackle, all the fronts, to bring back the glories of Hindu Dharma to forefront, but then my friend Atanu ji would remind me that nothing moves without his will, but his will, we must all do, without any hate in us, with firm faith and Dharma on our side victory is guaranteed.

Jai Shree Krishna

Agnideva
08 February 2007, 01:04 PM
I don't think shame is the reason. Hinduism itself is the reason! According to Hinduism, what you call 'several gods' must be maya, because God is only One without a second. This is why Indian youth is discarding the devas, they don't want to pray to illusions. It's because they want to follow Hinduism properly.

Namaste Maruti,

First of all, welcome to HDF :).

Two questions for you:

1. Where does it say that the Gods or Devas are illusions? (remember Hindus see the One without a second in all forms).

2. What do you mean "follow Hinduism properly"?


OM Shanti,
A.

saidevo
08 February 2007, 10:51 PM
Namaste Satay.


namaste all,
After further review of this thread, I feel that my own posts might be against the main rule of the site 'positive presentation of hindu dharma'.

Therefore, I am going to resign from this discussion. I don't want to disturb the peace of the forum!

Sorry, If I hurt anyone's feelings here.

No, you haven't violated the main rule, so please do involve yourself in the discussions, which is important.

The crux of the problem of a 'positive presentation of hindu dharma' seems to be two-fold:

1. To educate the grass roots, which is more urgently needed.
2. To acquaint the modern Hindu youth and the children with all facets of HInduism.

Why don't we think about the ways and means to achieve these things, in addition to discussing the danger to Hindu Dharma? Let us request the members to offer their practical suggestions for the two tasks mentioned above. Let us also know about the work of Hindu Institutions who are already doing the job. Leaving the politicians out, let us try to collect our knowledge and energy about what is being done, what we need to do to strengthen and expand it and how we go about it. HDF members have the knowledge and experiece to channelize them so it reaches the grass roots and the barren minds of youth who are influenced by the western culture.

We might start a new thread for this purpose, and let us first hear from Sri Satay, our leader.

Agnideva
09 February 2007, 02:10 PM
Namaste Maruti,


If Brahman alone is real and the world an illusion, then gods, devas etc. must be illusions. But aren't these forms unreal?
So, tell me Maruti, do you believe you exist? Or do consider your form an illusion as well?


If these forms are real and Brahmin 'in' them is also real, then we'll have two realities, and that will contradict Hindu philosophy of "Brahman Satya Jagat Mithya."There is no such thing as "Hindu philosophy." There are Hindu philosophies, many schools of them. One reality, two or three are all part of various Hindu philosophies.

OM Shanti,
A.

maruti
09 February 2007, 11:12 PM
So, tell me Maruti, do you believe you exist? Or do consider your form an illusion as well?
OM Shanti,
A.

By "your form", do you mean the body or the soul? Illusion if the former, Brahman if the latter.


There is no such thing as "Hindu philosophy." There are Hindu philosophies, many schools of them. One reality, two or three are all part of various Hindu philosophies.

Perhaps, but Vedanta is considered the highest in Hinduism. All great personalities like Vivekananda, Raman Maharishi etc. followed Vedanta. Besides, even other schools have the influence of this particular school. Hence Advaita best represents Hinduism.

saidevo
10 February 2007, 12:42 AM
Namaste Maruti,



According to Sankara, the world is an illusion, hence the famous statement: Brahman Sathya Jagat Mithya. No Hindu worth the name would contradict this. If you say even a child would know it's not correct, are you suggesting Sankara and other Advaitins were ignorant?


The term Mithya does not mean illusion. It actually means 'neither Sat' nor 'Asat', in other words, a temporary or conditional reality. Brahman is the absolute reality, Sat, called pAramArthika satyaM. The other extreme, the absolute non-existence, e.g., a hare's horn, is the 'asat'. This world is neither 'sat' nor 'asat'. Such things that are neither 'sat' nor 'asat' are placed under the catogory of 'mithya', which is a conditional, operational and subjective reality. Sankara's famous statement implies that this 'jagat' or world is 'mithya', which is not absolute reality but is real as long as it exists. It is the ‘vyAvahArika satyaM’ or operational reality and comes under the catogory 'mithya'.

Our dreams are real as long as we have them. They are “prAtibhAsika satyaM” or subjective reality, coming under the category 'mithya'.

Had Sankara meant 'illusion' for the term 'mithya', he would not have suggested and set an example for the elabortate path of 'bhakti' to prepare the body and soul for the ultimate path of 'jnana' that would get Self-Realization and liberate the soul.

Christians and Muslims wrongly interpret Maya as Illusion instead of Conditional Reality and therefore they taunt us Hindus with that concept. While we cannot care less for what they interpret, we ourselves need to be clear about Maya and Mithya. For a discussion of Advaita for beginners, check http://www.advaitin.net/advaitadialogue.pdf.

saidevo
10 February 2007, 07:16 AM
HH Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal's Advice to TTD for Tackling Christian Proselytism

(http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1948)



H.H Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal participated in the meeting of Matadhipathis from various parts of India, arranged by T.T.D. Devasthanam on 3rd and 4th February 2007 at Tirumala to work out strategies against conversion move by other religions.

His Holiness pointed out that the conversions could be effectively reduced if Dalits are made to feel part of Hindu Community. With this view HH suggested a number of steps to be taken by TTD which include construction small Balaji Temple in each and every Dalit colony and arrange daily poojas and encourage participation by the Dalits in the area, construction of community halls for Dalits for performing small family functions and motivation of Dalits to perform Bhajans in groups in their colonies. Big temples should adopt two or three smaller temples and arrange for daily pujas. TTD could permit and arrange free darshans of Sri Balaji for organisations like Dr. Ambedkar Peravai etc and distribute free Laddus. His Holiness demonstrated the last suggestion by taking two bus full of dalit devotees and arranged special darshans for them at Tirumala on 4th Feb 07 directly through Vaikundam Entrance. His Holiness has also suggested TTD to distribute Balaji Dollar with black thread to be worn around the neck to counter the cross being supplied by Christian mission.

Agnideva
10 February 2007, 09:11 AM
Namaste Maruti,

By "your form", do you mean the body or the soul?
Yes by “your form” I meant the temporal body, the mind and senses through which you perceive and experience.


Illusion if the former, Brahman if the latter.
Hmmm, interesting. No Advaita Vedantin I’ve ever met, heard lectures from, or have read books from has told me this before. Not a single one. So, if you believe that your body (and I assume you mean mind too) and the universe are illusion, why are you concerned about what your Christian friend says about the Hinduism? After all, if you believe everything is an illusion then you, your Christian friend, Christianity, Hinduism, the universe it’s all an illusion. Moreover, why are you interested in Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya, Jivo Brahmaiva Naparah? Isn’t it an illusion for you to believe that within this illusion of a universe Adi Shankara has declared the world to be an illusion?


Perhaps, but Vedanta is considered the highest in Hinduism. All great personalities like Vivekananda, Raman Maharishi etc. followed Vedanta.
So, are you telling me that those other philosophers and theologians were less than great individuals?

OM Shanti,
A.

sm78
11 February 2007, 04:42 AM
namaste,
Actually, I would say that muslim countries and china have great examples of how to deal with the peasants of christianity. Please do your research, I am sure you will agree.

Japan and Singapore are also grt examples ~ becoming a muslim country or china are not the best alternatives ;)

saidevo
13 February 2007, 11:04 AM
May this silver lining brighten into a dawn for Hindu Dharma and Bharatiya culture.



http://newstodaynet.com/2007sud/feb07/1302ss2.htm

Grand centenary fete for Guruji in TN

Under the inspiring and matchless leadership of Swami Dayanand Saraswati, Sri Guruji Centenary Celebration Committee has done marvellous work during the last one year starting from February, 2006. More than 500 public meetings have been organised throughout Tamilnadu. Thousands of common people belonging to all castes and creeds have participated with great gusto and enthusiasm. The nature and the extent of mass participation has clearly shown that Sri Guruji's voice continues to move the people of India. Here are a few interesting sidelights to illustrate the story.

a) At a meeting of all caste leaders to celebrate Sri Guruji's centenary in Chennimalai in Erode District, people went into ecstasy when they were permitted to participate in Gayatri Homa.

b) Members belonging to Ambedkar Makkal Mandram voluntarily came forward to participate in the Reception Committee connected with the Centenary Celebrations at Adyar, Chennai. All of them worked with tremendous enthusiasm round the clock to spread the message of Hindu solidarity.

c) Sri Varadarajan, a Scheduled Tribe (Arunthathiyar) leader was moved to tears at Arakkonam when he was given the honour of hoisting the Saffron Flag of the RSS at the conference in connection with the Centenary Celebrations of Sri Guruji. Likewise, Velumani, a Harijan leader, spoke eloquently about the role played by the RSS in bringing all the castes together on the same public platform. He too was given the honour of hoisting the Saffron Flag in the Periyapalayam conference held in Tiruvallur District.

d) Sri Srinivasan, a Harijan Leader from Atthur in Salem District declared: 'Spirituality alone can unite all the sections of society. RSS is a shining symbol of spirituality, selfless service and sacrifice. I for my part pledge myself to work round the clock for the RSS in all its society-building activities.'

e) Sri Madhiarasan, a Leader of the Indian Republican Party, participating in the Caste Leaders' Conference organised in Kancheepuram as part of the centenary celebrations, declared: 'In order to overcome the onslaughts on Hindu society, all the Hindus should come together shedding their caste differences. The only organisation that can help us achieve this great national goal is the RSS.'

f) In the Conference held at Chromepet, Chennai in which I participated, 50 Muslim women participated to show their solidarity with the Hindus in that area.

g) Former Adi Dravidar Welfare Minister Rajangam enthusiastically participated in the Sri Guruji Centenary Celebrations held at Panruti and Cuddalore.

h) The youths belonging to the PMK party of Endiyur village near Pondicherry voluntarily came forward to work for the Hindu Unity Conference in their village and proclaimed: 'Our village is an RSS village.'

i) Sri Varadarajan, an important Congress Leader of Tiruvottiyur had to face the ire of his party men because of his participation in the Hindu Unity Conference held in his locality. His shop was ransacked. Despite this great personal loss, he remained firm and fearless, expressing his solidarity towards RSS and took a vow to fight for Hindu unity. All the traders of the locality, condemning the looting of his shop, observed a one day bandh.

j) An Advocate called Sri Dayanidhi who presided over the centenary conference at Villupuram said: 'Myself and my father Sri Vengaimarban (who was performing Bhajans in the Conference) have been staunch supporters of the Dravida Kazhagam in the past. After realising that Hindu unity is a need of the hour, we are actively associating ourselves with the RSS.'

k) At Edayapalayam village in Tiruvannamalai district, all the people actively participated in decorating the village and gave it a festive outlook to 11 streets by offering floral tributes to the portrait of Sri Guruji.

Ten days ago a massive Conference was held at Madurai. More than 5000 Swayamsevaks from different parts of Tamilnadu participated in the march past. Sri Suryanarayana Rao, the senior most Swayamsevak of the RSS in charge of South India, participated in the Conference and gave an inspiring address which greatly moved all the Swayamsevaks and the common people present on the occasion. To mark the inauguration of the centenary celebrations in 2006, a special pooja was performed in thousands of temples in Tamilnadu invoking the blessings of God. In Chennimalai near Erode, the Temple Priest was greatly surprised when a batch of young students requested him to perform pooja for the welfare of Bharat Varsha and her people. They said they were inspired by the life and example of Sri Guruji.

In the neighbouring State of Karnataka, a massive conference was held last month in which more than 200,000 people participated. What is worth noting is that Muslim and Christian leaders called for a press conference in the presence of the District Collector, the Superintendent of Police and other officials and openly declared that they will be extending their full cooperation for the success of the Hindu Unity Conference convened by the RSS as part of Sri Guruji Golwarkar Centenary Celebrations.

Sri Guruji's life was soft and gentle. Yet Sri Guruji continues to live in our midst giving us this vital message even today

saidevo
14 February 2007, 07:26 PM
It seems that good news follows the sign up of Hindu-Jewish religious treaty. When is our own Bharat going to wake up, shedding its p-sec (pseudo secular) ways? The Indian politicians normally ape the West. Let's hope this will rub some sense into the wooden brain of the Government.



Israel Invites 300 Pandits to Pray for National Security

Israel invites 300 Vaidik Hindu Pandits to undertake collective chanting (Samuhik Namajap) for National Security.

Israel has invited 300 Hindu Pandits to undertake collective chanting (Samuhik Namajap) for protecting of Israel. They are waiting for their visas. These Pandits are not just knowledgeable in Vedas and Sanskrit, but they are also followers of the Vedic lifestyle. jpost.com has already published a news article relating to this.

Compare Israeli Government that tries every possible alternative with an open mind for National Security, to the Nidharmi Bharat Sarkaar which ignores the treasures of knowlegde hidden within its own land! Why must God grace this Government and the people that have elected it ? Spiritual Science Research Foundation has done extensive research in various types of such collective chanting.

Dr. Alex Kutei, an expert in "Technology and Nature's laws" in the Institute for Science and Creative Intelligence at Hozen, Israel has been doing Spiritual Practice as mentioned in the Vedas for the past 31 years.

"I will soon establish Israel as an invincible Nation with the help of Vedanta. Yoga and Namajap especially collective Namajap mentioned in the Vedas has the capacity of creating frequencies which foster National Unity and Peace, besides physical fitness." , says Dr. Kutei.

The planned collective chanting has to be done in exact manner prescribed in the Vedas. The number of priests doing the chant should be 1% that of 0.01% of total population of the Nation. In case of Israel the number comes to 300.

This is in fact just the peak of the whole mountain range. H.H. Dr. Jayant Athavale, founder, Sanatan Sanstha has said that the demand for Vaidik Sanskrit knowing Spiritual Seekers would exponentially increase globally from 2006 onwards right upto 2018. After 2018 sanskrit knowing people would have to be sent all over the world to spread the message of Spirituality and Gurukrupayoga.

http://www.haindavakeralam.org/PageModule.aspx?PageID=3000

saidevo
14 February 2007, 08:02 PM
National Mission of Manuscripts


New Delhi, Feb 14. (PTI): To preserve millions of neglected manuscripts, the Government has created an online database of 1.8 million ancient texts to promote them as treasures of the country.

Out of the five million manuscripts, 1.8 million have been documented and will be launched by Union Tourism and Culture Minister Ambika Soni today.

As the manuscripts were lying neglected, the Ministry had set up a National Mission for Manuscripts with the aim to locate them through a nation-wide surveys and then to document and catalogue them.

On the occasion of its fourth anniversary, the mission has planned a host of events, including the launch of the database for which a software was developed.

The National Electronic Catalogue of Manuscripts, 'Kritisampada' provides information of individual manuscripts, manuscript collections and printed catalogues.

It will be available to the public, in both Hindi and English, and they could search on the basis of title, author, script, language, subject and material.

Apart from the online database (http://www.namami.org), the proclamation of 45 selected manuscripts titled as the 'Vijnananidhi: Manuscript Treasures of India' will also be launched.

These manuscripts contains insights and discoveries and have at different times, broken new ground in India's knowledge systems.

(http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1909)

atanu
15 February 2007, 10:12 AM
Pranam Satay ji

------
We have to tackle, all the fronts, to bring back the glories of Hindu Dharma to forefront, but then my friend Atanu ji would remind me that nothing moves without his will, but his will, we must all do, without any hate in us, with firm faith and Dharma on our side victory is guaranteed.

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Thank you for the reference. I wish to reiterate that nothing happens without His will.

Duryodhana chose Lord's army. Arjuna chose the Lord.

Assuming that we live in a dual world and we need to protect our faith and province, even then God should be chosen.

If a Christian converts with a firm belief that a neighbour should be loved equal to oneself and with that strong belief he works for the upliftment of the poor neighbour, then Lord will side with him. On the other hand, political and material motives will cause his own destruction.

And Isha Upanishad says: "One who has seen the Self everywhere ------". I keep it incomplete for two reasons.

Om Namah Shivayya

saidevo
18 March 2008, 10:36 PM
Here is a letter from Stephen Knapp:

Namaste all Vedic Friends,

I have been writing about the denigration of India and Vedic culture that is promoted through Christian conversion tactics for several years now. I have seen it first hand in my travels in India, especially in the northeast region of India, such as in Assam, Arunachal, Nagaland, etc.

Here is a link below to use (copy and paste it into your browser) that shows a video in three parts on YouTube of the evils that Christian conversion tactics cause. It splits up families, villages, creates much turmoil between communities, disrupts the educational process for those who do not convert for students in Christian schools, and much more. It appears, quite honestly, that Christians would prefer to see the complete demise of Vedic culture altogether, and preach that Hindus are evil, Hindu Gods are evil and violent, and to prove one's conversion to Christianity, they force new converts to step on and tear up pictures of the Vedic Gods and Goddesses.

So please take a look at this video of Christian conversion tactics used in the Dang area of Gujarat. These are similar to the same tactics used in many other places around India. Then spread this link and information to your friends. As many people as possible should be aware of what is going on under the guise of Christian conversion. You can read some of my articles on this topic from my own experiences on my website.

Hari Om and Hari bol,
Stephen Knapp
www.stephen-knapp.com (http://www.stephen-knapp.com)

Bad Manna -A first hand report on the effects of missionary activities in India: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmj-_BB6zWY&feature=related

Heart breaking to see how Christian Missionaries are dividing and bringing animosity in India.

See also: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2753

devisarada
19 March 2008, 06:10 AM
I couldn't access your youtube link, but I found another one.

Here it is:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=NIPaN55hwac

I think I have also found your videos in a channel called stfrancis123


here is the link:

http://youtube.com/user/stfrancis123

saidevo
19 March 2008, 06:29 AM
Namaste.


I couldn't access your youtube link, but I found another one.

Here it is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NIPaN55hwac

I think I have also found your videos in a channel called stfrancis123
here is the link:
http://youtube.com/user/stfrancis123


I have edited my post to include the links you have given. The 'Bad Manna' link I have given in that thread, however, works fine for me! Please feel free to add any dharmic/adharmic links conducive to/destructive of Hindu Dharma under appropriate heads in that thread whose link I mention below once again:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2753

devisarada
19 March 2008, 07:22 AM
Namaste Saidevo,

The links in the thread you referred to work fine. Thanks.

BTW, I have also posted part 3 of the Bad Manna video on facebook.

Breaking up the family structure and destroying the social fabric of a nation, has to be stopped.

saidevo
20 October 2008, 09:50 PM
Three more Hindu Websites for Hindu dharma protection and awarness:

News about attacks on Hindu dharma and action in retaliation:
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti
http://www.hindujagruti.org/

Aims at fostering spiritual growth in an individual:
Sanatan Sanstha
http://www.sanatan.org/

Extensive research in the spiritual realm
http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/

saidevo
22 October 2008, 08:57 PM
Maanoj Rakhit – 'a great intellectual Kshatriya (warrior) in the tradition of Aurobindo Ghosh, Sitaram Goel and Ram Swarup', has written some books exposing the adharma of Christianity. The books are downloadable here at his Website: http://www.maanojrakhit.com/index.htm

Here is a series of articles about this man and his works by V.Sundaram, the famous, forthright columnist of the magazine News Today:

http://www.newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33&id=11397

Gotam
09 February 2009, 03:41 PM
It is strange, and smacks of hypocrisy that the Western faiths that believe in democracy as the most refined form of governance try to be autocratic and despotic when it comes to religion. And their followers blindly submit to religious authority, unlike us Hindus.

Namaste Saidevo,

I bet that when mentioning Western faiths that believe in democracy, you did not mean Islam. With regard to Christianity, for me as a European, it may be easier to understand what you call "strange". When the British came to India, they did not bring a purely christian culture, and that is a complex circumstance that must have been difficult to imagine for Hindus, who will have had more consistent and harmonious world views. The churches who expected their followers to submit blindly to religious authority had supported very undemocratic political regimes for centuries. They had opposed science and freedom of thought. These things, which Hindus probably value in the culture of many present-day christians, had, in fact, not been Christian since Christianity was created or re-created by the churches in the fourth century AD. They reluctantly accepted democracy and science after renaissance, when their power had begun to decline. This acceptance made it possible for them to survive the decline of ignorance in Europe.
Moreover, catholics who got fed up with being told by church what to believe had revolted and started the so-called reformation (protestantism). I apologize for mentioning this to readers who already know. This reformation also favoured the rise of democracy (In Switzerland, it was the other way round). But Christians became democrats because they had, from a medieval viewpoint, become less Christian.

And where did the democratic and scientific ideas come from? To a large extent from the pagans who had preceded Christianity in Europe, especially in Greece, from people whose religion was much less developed, but similar to Hinduism, because of a common origin, parallel developments and Hindu influence around the Mediterranean.

Christian missionaries in Africa have showed off with the achievements of their "Christian" culture to impress candidates for conversion, and they have probably done the same in India. In reality, these were rather achievements of the non-christian elements in Western culture, many of which we more or less share with Hindus. If Christianity contributed to science or democracy, then mainly by forcing educated liberal Westerners to defend themselves better.

Now, does this mean that christians are hypocrites? I think it means they simply don´t know their history, and sometimes it also means that they carry a conflict in themselves between our pagan and our christian heritage, and don´t know themselves what to think.

I think it is not a coincidence that India is a democracy, and that Pakistan is not, despite being somewhat more to the West.

Gotam
09 February 2009, 04:14 PM
The uniqueness of Sanatana Dharma is that right from the most illiterate who is gullible and believes in blind supererstitions and sentiments to the Self-realized sage knows and says that God is One, call Him/It by any name. The difference lies only in the degree of realization.

The conflict arises when the God of one path is projected as superior to others. We have conflicts among our own Hindu sects and debate if Shiva or Vishnu or Krishna is superior, but the none of the sects attempts to force its concepts on the others or convert others to its path. This is true of all Indian religions. Whereas the Western religions are exclusive, aggressive, belligerent and even violent, and attempt to bring the whole world under their own religions umbrella that denies individual freedom for seeking God. This is what we should fight against.


Namaste Saidevo,

do you mean that the degree of realisation that is possible in Christianity would be welcomed as a contribution to Sanatana Dharma if Christians gave up their exclusiveness? Judging from the changing mentality in Europe, I think such scenarios have become less unthinkable than they used to be, and many "Christians" may one day see their religion as a limited subset of the eternal dharma.

In the West, being denied the individual freedom for seeking God, many have concentrated on other individual freedoms, and this has led to scientific and technological progress, while the realm of the spirit was left to the dogmatics and got more and more neglected by the educated. But there is a growing consciousness that we can learn from Hindus in that field.

That said, I am really amazed about those missionaries in India. Here in Europe, the churches have to be very modest and diplomatic in order to avoid alienating what is left of their followers. We have proselytising sects like Mormons and Jehova´s witnesses, but nobody listens to them. If you can send those silly missionaries to Europe, they will have a hard time here!

Aum Santih.

Tyrannos
09 February 2009, 08:14 PM
Sorry if I interferes in this debate but I have noticed many wrong things:


And where did the democratic and scientific ideas come from? To a large extent from the pagans who had preceded Christianity in Europe, especially in Greece,


-The idea of democracy in Greece has developed against the religious tradition, and the same thing in India. For all the Dharmic religions the Kings must rules, not all the people without differences!
The most important writer of the democracy in Greece was protagoras: in his opinion the man is the foundation of all values of justice and injustice.
According to him, the men are the foundation of all the values and not the Gods : this is the famous relativism...


From this kind of personal and fallible opinions the democratic thought was born, and then it spread throughout the world primarily through the work of the french revolution...

The democracy is born from atheist thinking...






from people whose religion was much less developed, but similar to Hinduism, because of a common origin, parallel developments and Hindu influence around the Mediterranean.
Religion much less developed?

Have you never read the Orphics, or the Egyptian religious texts, or the Enuma Elish, etc.etc.?
Now you have to explain this your statement: "Religion much less developed "


I think it is not a coincidence that India is a democracy, and that Pakistan is not,

A coincidence? in this age of kali the muslims have a greater faith in their asuric religion ... and this thought is very sad...not a coincidence: we are in the age of kali, and the Laws of the Gods have been replaced by the opinions of men...


Tyrannos

Gotam
10 February 2009, 06:43 AM
Have you never read the Orphics, or the Egyptian religious texts, or the Enuma Elish, etc.etc.?
Now you have to explain this your statement: "Religion much less developed " [/LEFT]



Buongiorno Tyrannos!

I´m sorry; I must have missed the latest paperback editions. Could you please read them for me and tell me what´s in them? When you´re ready, you may convince me that the Hindu civilisation was not in every respect light years ahead of the West, as it still is when it comes to e.g. traditions and methods regarding the realisation of the self or the connection of man with God.

If you convince me, there will be a problem: where are those ancient religions and civilisations that did not survive Christianity now? They will offer me no living guru or ongoing practice; they have no forum on the internet. If you wanted to suggest Christianity is even worse a threat for other tranditions than we realise, as it destroyed those great religions: this could be good to know, fine! Perhaps someone on this forum is also interested in being reminded that Christian missionaries should not pride themselves on certain achievements of Western culture. In that case, we may both have contributed positively to the discussion. If not, I´m sorry.

Ciao.

Tyrannos
10 February 2009, 07:25 AM
I´m sorry; I must have missed the latest paperback editions. Could you please read them for me and tell me what´s in them? When you´re ready, you may convince me that the Hindu civilisation was not in every respect light years ahead of the West, as it still is when it comes to e.g. traditions and methods regarding the realisation of the self or the connection of man with God..
You can begin reading my posts regarding the Ancient Egyptian Religion...


If you convince me, there will be a problem: where are those ancient religions and civilisations that did not survive Christianity now? They will offer me no living guru or ongoing practice; they have no forum on the internet.
our ancestors are all dead or reborn or in the company of the Gods.
But everything return later also in a changed form. It's the sacred dance of KAla. Life and Death: the same.


Tyrannos

saidevo
10 February 2009, 11:18 AM
Namaste Gotam.

I am surprised that you have dug up a two year old post of mine to comment on it!



do you mean that the degree of realisation that is possible in Christianity would be welcomed as a contribution to Sanatana Dharma if Christians gave up their exclusiveness? Judging from the changing mentality in Europe, I think such scenarios have become less unthinkable than they used to be, and many "Christians" may one day see their religion as a limited subset of the eternal dharma.


There is a proverb in Tamil that says, 'If your aunt grows whiskers then she would be your uncle!' Anyway, let us try to see what Christianity has in common with Hinduism to be its 'limited subset' as you have put it.

Sri Krishna chalks out for us three paths to Self-Realization: karma, bhakti and jnAna yogas. Surely, Christianity has the provisions for the first two paths but lacks any of it for the third (and this IMO is due to the lack of independent inquiry in that religion).

• If Christianity gives up its exclusivity and accepts peaceful coexistence with other religions, then undoubtedly, the services it provides in the health and education sectors would amount to the highest forms of karma yoga! Hindus would welcome it and learn from their experiences. It is only the attitude and hidden agenda of conversion that lurks behind the Christian missionary services that taints its efforts.

How nice would it be if the Christian schools allow their Hindu children to wear the tilak, have their religion taught to them and do not subject them to such disgusting tactics of conversion as taking the innocent Hindu children on a tour in a bus, asking the driver to stop in a vacant area, scare the children that something is wrong, ask them to pray to their Hindu gods, let them 'see' that nothing happens and then ask them to pray to Jesus--and presto, the bus starts right away!

• If Christianity gives up its exclusivity of Jesus, accepts His peaceful coexistence with the Hindu Gods, stop distributing pamphlets reviling Hindu Gods even while adopting the Hindu methods of worship in their churches; and the Christian religious leaders make regular visits to the ashrams of celebrated Hindu gurus for satsang, then that religion would certainly be accommodated by the Hindus as they accommodate the other Indian religions!

• But then Christianity, even if it gives up its exclusivity of Jesus and His Priest as the only link to Him, has not much to teach in the path of jnAna yoga. It is not enough to say that God is one, that Jesus is God and that the Priest is Messenger. The path to Self-Realization by jnAna yoga starts with the recognition of divinity in all the beings that God has created: thus the common man has the same divinity of the Father as the Priest or even Jesus; that the animals, birds and fish too have such divinity; and that God is not apart from His creation but is immanent in it.

With such recognition of divinity in God's creations, people should be taught the ways and means to realize the divinity of the Self in every human being. Despite all the different names and varieties we see in the yoga systems taught by the various Hindu institutions, they are all based on Patanjali's eight-limbed yoga system. Since Christianity has no such equivalent provisions of sAdhana, Hindus would gladly impart that knowledge to the Christian notables and commons.

Christianity 'losing' its exclusivity is however, only a wishful thinking for now. I am only reminded of Christina Rossetti's beautiful poem below:

Boats sail on the rivers,
And ships sail on the seas;
But clouds that sail across the sky
Are prettier far than these.

There are bridges on the rivers,
As pretty as you please;
But the bow that bridges heaven,
And overtops the trees,
And builds a road from earth to sky,
Is prettier far than these.

The Abrahamic religions giving up their exclusivity and seeking peaceful coexistence, for now is not even a rainbow on the sky that is seen by everyone at least for sometime. It is a rainbow that appears in dream when we sleep with such wishful thinking.

Gotam
10 February 2009, 03:27 PM
Namaste Saidevo,

thank you for your beautiful and detailed answer. In fact, if you are right, and Christianity cannot grow the whiskers that would raise the question of it needing a new name, or at least a different one, one that fits a tolerant, open-minded religion, then it is almost a pity you go to such lengths explaining in which fields Christianity could "improve itself". And you are right: the Abrahamic religions (here in continental Europe we say "semitic religions", which is not really a better term) will not transform themselves into something less exclusive, nor will, in the case of Christianity, most churches. But when Christians leave their religion, and they do not become very reluctant to have anything to do with "another of those religions" and become agnostics forever, they are usually attracted by traditions that are of Hindu origin (often Yoga or Buddhism). In the second case, they may develop an attitude in life that is compatible with Hinduism or could belong to it, but recycle part of their Christianity, finding a deeper meaning in it than they did as Christians. If one day these people are the only survivors of Christianity, will they be called Christians, in spite of having a dharmic religion?

Discovering, partly thanks to you, how missionaries in India behave, has convinced me that the clergy´s modesty in Europe is due to their having no more impact here. If their power was not broken, my country of origin (Northern Belgium) would again be what I called it when I was young: a colony of the Vatican.

But it is also true that many priests I know have become more open-minded, and some have even given up their Christian faith.

I think Indian Christians wiil be as dissatisfied about Christianity as Europeans one day, and will then return to Sanatana Dharma, but it is a real pity they should first have to leave it and then be almost as handicapped as we Westerners are when we want to find our way in it.

Om Shantih.

I

atanu
10 February 2009, 10:27 PM
Namaste Saidevo,
Discovering, partly thanks to you, how missionaries in India behave, has convinced me that the clergy´s modesty in Europe is due to their having no more impact here. If their power was not broken, my country of origin (Northern Belgium) would again be what I called it when I was young: a colony of the Vatican.


Namaste Gotam,

This is the general truth. Shri Krishna destroying his own yadu vansha is not time or place constrained. Arrogance of Ego is broken by Ishwara irrespective of place and time.

Om

Gotam
11 February 2009, 07:05 AM
Namaste Atanu,

I would neglect my duty if I spent more time on HDF in the near future, so I´ll be brief. Thank you for the references, I shall look them up by the time I´m back here.

Without knowing what you refer to, I think I can already say this: when I was arrogant in my own life, this happened when I felt weak, never when I felt strong. I think the more we identify with our ego, the weaker we turn out to feel, at least that is the outcome when we make a minimal effort of introspection. Perhaps you would agree that the less we are aware of our connection with God or Universe, the more we are at risk of feeling weak, and the weaker we are indeed. Now I think the more people misbehave, the more this could be an indication of inward weakness. A simple and obvious observation we can all make in daily life is that people who are really certain of their words and claims don´t need to convince others. The case of Christians who think they are saving their own soul by "saving" other people´s souls (one of those many similarities with Hinduism: rightly understood, this could have been like karma yoga, I think, but in practice, it is the opposite) is of course more complicated, but still, there must be a terrible fear, a fear of insignificance, punishment, humiliation, whatever: some depressing saMskAra at work in many a missionary. Hindus having developed the most refined and realistic system of psychology found in any culture, I wonder if understanding the opponent´s problem should not be a subject of your discussion here, and of your action, because what some if not all of these people do is infecting others with their own inner misery. The help they need may simply be to feel your opposition, but it could be something else as well. Sorry if you have already discussed this, I have not read it all. I think there is a field there in which Hindus are really very strong.

Om shantih.

saidevo
16 February 2009, 06:03 PM
This news item gives an idea of the extent of activity of the Western religious forces in India and of the effect of Hindu reaction to it. Still a long way to go!

Five lakh Christians, Muslims reconverted to Hinduism: Togadia
http://www.dailypioneer.com/156744/Five-lakh-Christians--Muslims-reconverted-to-Hinduism-Togadia.html

Five lakh Muslims and Christians have been reconverted to Hinduism in the last decade, claimed VHP international general secretary Praveen Bhai Togadia, addressing the Dharma Raksha Nidhi programme at the Civic Centre on Sunday.

In Sundargarh district alone, out of 10 per cent Christians, nine per cent has already been reconverted to Hinduism, he further bragged. It is possible due to the Rs 100 crore annual budget service of the VHP against the 65,000 crore annual budget of Christian missionaries for proselytisation programme in India, he said.

He said India has 23,000 tribal villages, out of that Rs 100 crore budget, for free schooling of tribals students, at present 145 tribal hostels are run by the VHP where 5,000 tribal students receive free studentship and lodging and boarding. In Orissa, 1,500 such schools are being there and there are plans to expand the network. He extorted the Hindu household to give a handful of rice and Rs 1 per day to expedite the noble cause.

ohmshivaya
15 June 2009, 02:39 AM
Perhaps christians and many indifferent Hindus might object to a thread such as "Defending Hindu Dharma against the Onslaught Adharmic Religions." Would a thread title"Cautioning Hindus about proselytization strategies of Christianity" be more acceptable? The article below would fit beautifully into such a thread. (Merely a wry comment...please retain the thread title as it is). Ohmshivaya

------------------------------------
Atma Jyoti Ashram: Sannyasins or Swindlers?
14/06/2009 14:28:31
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HK/uploadedfile/Atma%20Jyoti%20Ashram1462009142429763.jpg



By Swami Devananda Saraswati


In Catholic Ashrams: Sannyasins or Swindlers, Sita Ram Goel describes the Christian missionary strategists’ plan to infiltrate Hindu society and gain the confidence of the people: “Christianity has to drop its alien attire and get clothed in Hindu cultural forms. In short, Christianity has to be presented as an indigenous faith. Christian theology has to be conveyed through categories of Hindu philosophy; Christian worship has to be conducted in the manner and with the materials of Hindu puja. Christian sacraments have to sound like Hindu samskaras; Christian churches have to copy the architecture of Hindu temples; Christian hymns have to be set to Hindu music; Christian themes and personalities have to be presented in styles of Hindu painting; Christian missionaries have to dress and live like Hindu sannyasins; Christian mission stations have to look like Hindu ashramas. And so on, the literature of Indigenization goes into all aspects of Christian thought, organization and activity and tries to discover how far and in what way they can be disguised in Hindu forms.”

Sita Ram Goel wrote this in 1988, and he would not be surprised to learn that Christian priests and monks in America have adopted the very same tactics to attract a whole generation of American youth interested in Hindu spirituality, back to Christianity. The leader in this movement today is Abbot George Burke of Atma Jyoti Ashram in Cedar Crest, New Mexico. He is better known on the Internet as Swami Nirmalananda Giri.

Atma Jyoti Ashram was originally called Sri Isha (=Jesus) Jyoti Sannyas Ashram and was located at Borrego Springs, California. Fr. George Burke is a Greek Orthodox Christian priest, and if reports are correct most or all of the community of brothers attached to him are Christian priests.

On one of his visits to India, Fr. George met with the Bengali saint Ananda Mai Ma. She instructed him to remain in the Christian religion and continue with his Christian practices. This is not unusual advice from a Hindu guru. In spite of their enlightenment, most of them are grossly ignorant of Christianity’s ideology and imperial designs, and of its triumphant, sectarian prayers and bloody rituals. They will advise their foreign followers to remain in the religion of their forefathers, not realizing the negative consequences of their thoughtless words.

This kind of advice is insincere and irresponsible, especially when it is made to foreign seekers who take the guru’s instruction as divine word. Christianity is based on a false doctrine of vicarious salvation, and there is nothing in Hindu scripture or the ancient Rishi tradition to support the ill-conceived advice handed out to foreign seekers by Hindu teachers who do not want to take spiritual responsibility for their charges.

However, Ananda Mai’s instruction suited Fr. George and his followers to a T, and they quoted her later as their authority to don the ochre cloth of Hindu sannyasis and adopt the Sanskrit titles and names of Smarta Dasanami monks. The fact that Ananda Mai Ma was not an initiated Dasanami sannyasi herself and had no authority to give her followers ochre cloth or Dasanami titles did not deter them in the impersonation drama. They continued to perform the bloody sacrifice of the Christian Mass in secret, even as they presented themselves in public as simple, unaffiliated Hindu monks. It was the old fraud of Robert de Nobili and Henri Le Saux being repeated again on an unsuspecting public, only this time it was an American not an Indian public that was being duped by the persuasive snake oil salesmen.

At one point in their career, while they were still the Sri Isha (=Jesus) Jyoti Sannyas community in Borrego Springs, they were caught out in their charade by non other than the Shaiva Siddhanta Church in Hawaii. The brothers did carpentry for a living, being followers of the Carpenter, and one of the items they produced for sale was a Roman cross with the sacred Hindu word-symbol Om nailed to its cross bars. They sent a sample to Hinduism Today with the hope of attracting sales. They got instead a negative response and a return of the obscene article. Hindus, even modern American Hindu converts, are deeply offended by this kind of syncretism and do not understand the appeal it has for New Agers and gay Christian priests who flaunt it on their cassock fronts as a sign of their radical universalism.

The Catholic writer S. Kulandaiswami has said vis-à-vis Fr. Bede Griffiths and his bastardized Om-on-Cross iconography: “Ritual, rites, [and] ceremonies in Hinduism have not been changed to suit the whims of modern innovators. Griffiths, by superimposing the sacred word Om on a Cross imagines he has created a new spiritual phenomenon. On the contrary he confuses and insults both Hinduism and Christianity. He fails to realize that by such acts he is neither enriching Christianity nor honouring Hinduism. One has to respect the unique rites and rituals of each religion, which placed in another context, will be meaningless and confusing. In a later debate published in the letters column of the Indian Express, Chennai, in 1989, the Hindu correspondent S. Venkatachalam wrote: “It is highly outrageous and objectionable to compare … Hindu leaders and religious heads with the Christian missionary experimentalists like Bede Griffiths, Hans Staffner [and the] Christian missionary Fr. Henri Le Saux, the so-called Abhishiktananda…. Swami Vivekananda, Gandhiji, Ramana Maharshi and Paramacharya of Kanchi never resorted to such experimentation of a “cocktail religion” or “masala and kichidi religion” by mixing religious symbols, donning the dress of [a Christian] father or [Muslim] mullah, building church-like or mosque-like temples, fabricating Bible- or Quran-like Hindu slokas, or asserting that Rama or Krishna or Shiva is the only God and by accepting Him alone one can get salvation.”

The Sri Isha (=Jesus) Jyoti Sannyas Ashram brothers did not succeed in pedalling their original handcrafted Om-on-Crosses to the Hindus of Hawaii then, but in their new incarnation as the sadhus of Atma Jyoti Ashram they have succeeded in getting advertising space in Hinduism Today and the sponsorship of Ramana Ashram in Tiruvannamalai. All this and more, yet they remain so far as we know Christian priests in orange robes with false Sanskrit names and titles, the usual New Age bells and beads added. They are quite a success in Christian duplicity if not in true Hindu spirituality.

The sponsorship of Ramana Ashram and the publication of the Atma Jyoti Ashram brothers’ articles under assumed Hindu names in the Ramana Ashram journal Mountain Path is not really surprising. Sri Ramana Ashram is a family business headed by a hereditary trustee. The current president is the Advaita Vedanta paralogist V.S. Ramanan. The ashram was declared a non-Hindu institution in 1963.

Though Ramanan is the editor of Mountain Path as required by law, the de facto editor is the Australian theosophist Christopher Quilkey. He is a disciple of the anti-modernist French Sufi Rene Guenon, and is assisted by the American Catholic Benedictine monk Brother Michael. Brother Michael divides his time between Shanti Vanam near Tiruchirappalli, the Benedictine hermitage of the notorious Christian missionary Fr. Bede Griffiths, and Ramana Ashram in Tiruvannamalai. He is a Catholic priest and will say Mass whenever and wherever the Catholic spirit moves him, including Ramana Ashram and other places of Hindu pilgrimage and worship. His other duty is to vet articles sent to Mountain Path for publication and forward them on to Christopher Quilkey in Kodaikanal for acceptance and publication. Ramanan shows little or no interest in the articles that are selected for publication, and though the ashram follows Vedic Brahminical traditions and can afford to employ a professional, it is not able to find and keep a responsible and dedicated Hindu editor for its magazine.

Ramanan appears to be in a state of denial regarding Christians in his own ashram and missionaries in general. He writes, “There is no doubt that Christianity has, over centuries been a proselytizing religion and some of the preachers had indulged in scurrilous propaganda against Hindu beliefs and mores. But there is nothing to worry. The worst is over and the Vedantic Truth is eternal and imperishable. I know a number of Christian priests who revere Hinduism and Vedanta. It is well known that Westerners are increasingly being drawn to Yoga and Vedanta which Swami Vivekananda called the “Religion of the Future.”

Nothing to worry, eh? The worst is over, eh? Either Ramanan is a fool or he is in league with the Christian missionaries who publish in the ashram journal.

The first articles to appear in Mountain Path by an Atma Jyoti Ashram member were by a Catholic priest who resides in Tiruvannamalai and calls himself Swami Sadasivananda Giri. The articles were inoffensive enough, but because it was known to a number of sadhus and Ramana Ashram devotees that the author was in fact a Christian priest masquerading as a Hindu sannyasi, the matter was brought to the Ramana Ashram president’s attention with the request that Sadasivananda be identified by his real Christian name and titles to Mountain Path readers.

The letter was ignored, and when the April-June 2009 issue of Mountain Path appeared, it was discovered that not only did Swami Sadasivanand’s article appear without proper identification, but an article by Fr. George Burke, the Greek Orthodox abbot of Atma Jyoti Ashram in New Mexico, was also included under the name Swami Nirmalananda Giri. The request to identify the Christian contributors to the journal was not only denied by the Ramana Ashram president Ramanan, but a strong message of contempt and scorn for Hindu sannyas traditions was given out by the Mountain Path editor and his dubious, uncommitted assistants.

The problem of Christian priests and missionaries masquerading as Hindu sannyasis is an old one in India. The impersonation drama was first carried out by Robert de Nobili in Madurai in in the 17th century. It was continued and made notorious by Fr. Bede Griffiths (aka Swami Dayananda) in the 20th century, though his collaborator the French Benedictine monk Fr. Henri Le Saux was without doubt the most successful Hindu sadhu impersonator. He is known to this day by his adopted Sanskrit name Swami Abhishiktananda, and had non other than the late Swami Chidananda Saraswati of Sivananda Ashram in Rishikesh as a patron.

The new twist in the criminal impersonation of Hindu sadhus, is that Christian priests in the US are adopting Hindu names and dress in order to deceive and entrap America seekers who have already rejected the false doctrines and superstitions of Christianity, in the hope of bringing them back to Jesus and the Church.

Missionary activity in India has peaked under the benevolent gaze of the Christian-Congress UPA regime of Sonia Gandhi. Andhra Pradesh is now said to be 30% Christian and growing, with Tamil Nadu following closely behind. Both states will soon rival Kerala with their Christian populations. The real problem is not missionaries flashing American dollars or dressing up as sadhus in order to deceive unsuspecting villagers. Christians in India are doing what Christians have always done throughout history: they are subverting and subsuming the non-Christian cultures and societies that they are not able to conquer by force. The real problem is with Hindu leaders--political, social, cultural, and religious leaders. They are first of all in a state of denial, unwilling or unable to admit the Christian threat and the grave implications it has for Hindu civilization and society. Or, like the editors of the Ramana Ashram journal Mountain Path, they take the out-dated, irresponsible, and non-Vedic theosophical view that all religions are one and the same anyway, so what does it matter if a few million villagers become dollar Christians. Or, and this is especially true of Hindu religious leaders, they recognise the Christian threat but are not sufficiently equipped or knowledgeable to counter it. Unlike Christian priests who study Hindu scriptures and doctrines in depth for years, they have never read the Bible or studied the imperialist Christian ideologies that have be formulated out of the Bible story. They are helpless, and they are made even more helpless by their own superficially understood and secularised doctrines of an abstract, impersonal, and all-pervasive Brahman godhead.

Every popular religious teacher in India today espouses some form or other of Advaitic philosophy. Even the popular Chennai Christian newspaper Deccan Chronicle carries a weekly “spiritual” column of secularised Neo-Vedantic commentary called “Vedanta Rocks”. This demytholised Vedanta with its abstract terminology and concept of Oneness is the great love of the modern Indian secular sophist or Jesuit-trained Christian casuist. They can turn these Hindu concepts and ideals any which way they like and use them for any amoral purpose when they are taken out of their original Hindu religious context.

Most modern Indian religious teachers do take Advaita Vedanta out of its original Vedic religious context, and in so doing they give a potent weapon to the enemy with which to attack Hindu religion and undermine Hindu society and culture. Sita Ram Goel, in Catholic Ashrams, writes: “[T]he literature of Indigenisation provides ample proof that several Hindu philosophies are being actively considered by the mission strategists as conveyors of Christianity. The Advaita of Shankaracharya has been the hottest favourite so far. The Vishistadvaita of Ramanuja, the Bhakti of the Alvar saints and Vaishnava Acharyas, the Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo and the Vichara of Ramana Maharshi are not far behind.”

The medieval Acharyas and more recent teachers of Vedic spirituality like Ramana Maharishi, were able to know without difficulty the religious identity and affiliations of their disciples. They did not have to search out and verify their students’ political and religious backgrounds. This is no longer true today. Hindu society has become secularised in the cities and teachers are faced with multicultural audiences from different countries and traditions. It is therefore incumbent on all Hindu gurus in India and abroad, to put their philosophical teaching into its original religious context so that it cannot be distorted and abused by Hinduism’s scholarly Marxist and Christian enemies.

Apostle Paul and the Early Church Fathers conquered ancient Greece by forcibly secularising Greek society. They divided the unity of Greek religion and mythology from Greek philosophy and philosophic terminology. They then secularised and appropriated Greek philosophic terminology and took the Greek religious concept of an Unknown God for themselves. The religious vacuum that followed in Greek society was then filled in with the Jesus cult and other Christian superstitions. Indian bishops are perpetrating the same apostolic fraud today when they claim the Tamil Shaivite saint Tiruvalluvar was a disciple of the legendary St. Thomas. They then add to their cultural crime by claiming Tiruvalluvar’s “secular” ethical treatise Tirukkural as their own sectarian Christian book.

This is how ancient Greece became a Christian country, and it is how modern India is fast becoming a Christianised Hindu country. The difference is that in modern India, it is well-meaning and ill-informed Hindu spiritual teachers and ashram administrators who are assisting the Christian predators in the downfall and obliteration of Hindu religion and culture.

Perhaps we are mistaken; perhaps we have been misinformed about Atma Jyoti Ashram and its abbot Fr. George Burke. Perhaps he and his brother disciples have converted to Hinduism and gone through Vedic samskaras of purification and name change under the guidance of a Hindu priest. If that is the case, then let them produce their certificates of de-baptism and apostasy from the Christian religion. And as they claim to be Smarta Dasanami sannyasins with Giri titles, let them produce their certificates of sannyasa from a recognised Dasanami mahamandaleshwar and math. They can post these important documents of religion on their website. We will then give them our blessing, for their good sense in religion and spiritual endeavour, and hold our peace.

source: http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PAGEID=8810&SKIN=C

atanu
15 June 2009, 08:46 PM
. Ohmshivaya

Atma Jyoti Ashram: Sannyasins or Swindlers?
14/06/2009 14:28:31

By Swami Devananda Saraswati

On one of his visits to India, Fr. George met with the Bengali saint Ananda Mai Ma. She instructed him to remain in the Christian religion and continue with his Christian practices. This is not unusual advice from a Hindu guru. In spite of their enlightenment, most of them are grossly ignorant -----

This kind of advice is insincere and irresponsible, ----

Every popular religious teacher in India today espouses some form or other of Advaitic philosophy. ----

Most modern Indian religious teachers do take Advaita Vedanta out of its original Vedic religious context, ------.”


Perhaps we are mistaken; ------let them produce their certificates of sannyasa from a recognised Dasanami mahamandaleshwar and math. They can post these important documents of religion on their website. We will then give them our blessing, for their good sense in religion and spiritual endeavour, and hold our peace.

Namaste,

I did not know that sannyasa is proven by a certificate. Swami Devananda, himself a son of a canadian priest, not only demolishes his christian opponents but also demolishes many hindu gurus. He writes this also:



Thank you for the copy of Christianity in a different Light,, which I have read from cover to cover. You are one of the very few Hindu writers working today who has understood the truth about Christianity and the insidious influence it has had on our educated and governing classes. I particularly appreciate your criticism of Yogananda Paramahansa of California. For the last hundred years our mahatmas (including Mahaatma Gandhi) and god men have misled the people --------




Swami Chidananda of Shivananda Aashram at Rishikesh is a prime example of this kind of Christianized Hindu sadhu who has gained a world following by undermining the very integrity of Hindu Dharma.


My best wishes, and Sri Devi’s blessings, on your good work for Dharma.
- Swami Devananda Saraswati Letter 29-10-2004




The canadian sadhu, whose real name is not known, does not leave any sadhu of last hundred years, including Mahatma Gandhi. May be he knows better than all and Hindus need him?


Om Namah Shivaya

ohmshivaya
18 June 2009, 10:37 AM
[quote=atanu;29010][/font]
I did not know that sannyasa is proven by a certificate...

Of course, it is not; but Swami Devanandaji is questioning the leanings of this new crop of Christian gurus, who have suddenly mushroomed everywhere, donning saffron robes, holding Sanskritized names, borrowing scriptural phrases and teachings from Hindu texts, all to slowly introduce christ into the naive Hindu society.

Swami Devananda expresses legitimate concern. He is also NOT, by any means, the only Hindu swami or guru or even the only Hindu to express such concerns, over the rapid Christianization of India, particularly in some states such as Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh, using precisely the inculturation methods described in the article (and in other articles found in the links below). Recently, Kanchi Perivaar, Swami Jayendra Saraswati ji, also came out with firm rejoinder to the Catholic church along similar lines after an interfaith religious dialogue initiated by the Catholic Church.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=633 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=633)

For more opinions and reports on the strategies adopted by Christianity to Christianize India, one may find the following articles informative. It is possible that many Hindus, particularly non-Indians, are genuinely unaware or ignorant of the socio-political and economic strategies adopted by the church (of all denominations) and Christian organizations in many non-Christian developing countries around the world, in order to Christianize these societies. Many others may simply be in denial; yet others just plain foolishly obstinate (they simply cannot accept that they have been wrong all along about Christianity, or face up to their responsibility for having allowed christianity to commit atrocities against Hindus right under their noses, while they looked sheepishly away, muttering "all Gawd is one.").

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=630 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=630)
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=632 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=632)
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=634 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=634)
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=631 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=631)
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=638 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=638)
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=641 (http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=641)


Swami Devananda is correct when he laments about Hindus trying to interpret the Bible and Koran solely from a Hindu perspective, without understanding that the two religions and their scriptures were not conceived and written by Hindus. These two religions were conceived and built on exclusivism. One needs to stop analyzing these two religions and their books from the point of view of Hinduism, and instead see them in the light of the socio-political and cultural context underlying the creation of these two institutions (Christianity and Islam) and their purport.

It is ironic that many Hindus today insist that they have understood or unlocked the ‘wholesome truth’ contained in the Bible (or Koran) when devout Christians (or Muslims),worldwide, including their spiritual leaders, and societies that have been practicing this religion from the time of its inception, have been unable to decipher the bible’s alleged ‘deeper’ meaning.




Swami Devananda, himself a son of a canadian priest, :


In his website, Swami Devananda talks about his background briefly.

http://hamsa.org/contact.htm (http://hamsa.org/contact.htm)


Does it matter what his father was, or wasn’t? That point is irrelevant...



...not only demolishes his christian opponents but also demolishes many hindu gurus.

What exactly has he demolished, other than exposed the truth. If that is to demolish, we may need more such demolitions. What he has observed and investigated in his extended travels throughout India, particularly Tamil Nadu, and in-depth research is very much in line with what other historians, social scientists, Hindu Acharyas, and common Hindus have observed and commented on. The new crop of Indian gurus, gallivanting around the world gathering international devotees, particularly celebrities – the Deepak Chopra kind- all seem to be in a hurry to distance themselves from the ‘Hindu’ label once they have peddled the Hindu ‘wares’ to the western and westernized Indian audiences at large. OHMYGOSH! Hinduism!- that forbidden word.

Swami Devananda’s writings on the manipulation of the Hindu society by Christian religious leaders and organizations echo what others such as Sri Sita Ram Goel, Vama Deva Shastri (Sri David Frawley), Sri Stephen Knapp and academician Koenraad Elst have observed, and researched and wrote on.

For example, Koenraad Elst writes:


Seldom have I seen such viper-like mischievousness as in the most recent strategies of the Christian mission in India. It is a viper with two teeth. On the one side, there is the gentle penetration through social and educational services, now compounded with a rhetoric of "inculturation": glib talk of "dialogue", "sharing", "common ground", fraudulent donning of Hindu robes by Christian monks, all calculated to fool Hindus about the continuity of the Christian striving to destroy Hinduism and replace it with the cult of Jesus. This is not to deny that there are some Indian Christians who sincerely believe that the denomination game is outdated, that we should go "beyond the religions" and mix freely with non-Christians without trying to change their religious loyalties; but they do not represent official Church policy. On the other side, there is a vicious attempt to delegitimize Hinduism as India's native religion, and to mobilize the weaker sections of Hindu society against it with "blood and soil" slogans. Seeing how the nativist movement in the Americas is partly directed against Christianity because of its historical aggression against native society (in spite of Liberation Theology's attempts to recuperate the movement), the Indian Church tries to take over this nativist tendency and forge it into a weapon against Hinduism. Christian involvement in the so-called Dalit ("oppressed") and Adivasi ("aboriginal") movements is an attempt to channel the nativist revival and perversely direct it against native society itself. It advertises its services as the guardian of the interests of the "true natives" (meaning the Scheduled Castes and Tribes) against native society, while labelling the upper castes as "Aryan invaders", on the basis of an outdated theory postulating an immigration in 1500 B.C.


...does not leave any sadhu of last hundred years, including Mahatma Gandhi.

How in the world does one arrive at that conclusion, from the article above? Has Swami Devananda attacked Paramaacharya of Kanchi, or his successors at the Kanchi math; has he attacked any of the Shankaracharyas of the other Shankara maths; has he attacked Sri Ramana Maharishi; or Swami Sivananda; or Sri Aurobindo; Swami Vivekananda; Swami Ramakrishna Paramahamsa? He has not even condemned a controversial guru like Sai Baba of Puttaparthi. On the contrary, Swami Devananda upholds the honesty and integrity of the ancient masters, and denounces some types of contemporary gurus - particularly the bogus kind that uses Hinduism as a crutch to prop up Christianity in the country - and the current management of many of the ashrams of the enlightened masters.

The sad truth is that many contemporary Indian gurus base their spiritual foundation on the tenets of Upanishads/Vedanta/ and Gita, but once they have acquired a very large international following openly disassociate themselves from Sanatana Dharma (or Hinduism) as if it was a plague.

About two years ago, I had experience with one upcoming guru and his group. This contemporary ‘spiritual’ guru has his base in Tamil Nadu. His emissaries (disciples who allegedly have been bestowed the spiritual ‘powers’ directly by him to initiate others into his fold) travel around the country canvassing patronage, by conducting some kind of initiation ceremony (kind of induction into his ‘group’) for a fee, while he personally travels abroad to conduct these courses. Ever curious, I attended a course in India after paying the necessary fee. The emissary conducting this particular session, a young lady who sparkled (with enlightenment) like a 5 watts bulb, starts of by dramatically declaring that it is waste of time and unnecessary to go to ‘temples’ or ‘places of worship’ (she, of course, carefully refrains from mentioning ‘’church’’ and ‘’mosque’’).

Of course, one knows that in Hinduism it is not essential to visit temples to achieve enlightenment, or God’s grace, or to express one’s affiliation with Hinduism, unlike in Christianity and Islam. But one has to also understand that temples are just not for praying casually, fulfilling a vow, or visiting for social reasons, or even to outwardly express one's Hindu identity; but many of the ancient temples in India are concentrated energy centres. Rituals, prayers, and mantras as per the Agama shastras have been performed continuously for hundreds of years, making these places powerful energy centres. In addition, many great Hindu Sages and Acharyas from time immemorial, so to speak, have visited, prayed and performed rituals in these temples, further strengthening the energy concentration in these places. When one prays or meditates in such places, one taps inadvertently to this energy.

The organization of this upcoming guru also clearly states that they don’t follow any particular belief system or tradition. Yet, every philosophy that this guru propounds is taken from some aspect of Hinduism. Interestingly though, this guru and his ashramites are not above performing rituals, and praying and meditating on the lingam in the ashram premise. Apparently this structure exudes energy. Thus, according to this group’s logic, it is desirable to pray to the lingam put up by the guru, but it is ‘pointless’ to pray to the lingam or deity in the temples?

Not surprisingly, his method of un-tagging himself from Hinduism seems to have won the approval and endorsement of the anti-Hindu chief minister of Tamil Nadu, M Karunanidhi, and his Christian daughter. These two who have never previously endorsed or spoken kindly of any Hindu guru sings praises of him. According to their public statement, this guru is unique because he does a lot of social work? Huh? Am I missing something here?

There are so many well-known and ancient Hindu ashrams/mutts throughout India and particularly in Tamil Nadu (example, the Kanchi Math, RamaKrishna Mutt) that have been very active in social work and have extended poverty elimination programs and health care services for the poor and the needy, and run educational institutions, and having been doing so for many decades now. Yet, Karunanaidhi and his political party has always shown contempt and disrespect for these institutions and their heads primarily because they carry their Hindu identity. An institution that carries a Hindu tag is source of annoyance for the christian church and institutions.

Many of the new age gurus not only distance themselves from Hinduism, they go overboard by quoting few phrases here and there from the bible, relate stories about alleged Jesus’s deeds and what jesus is alleged to have said (curiously, these stories are not found in any mainstream Christian denomination in the west or in India). I’m sure none of these gurus have ever read the bible from front to back (or even back to front.). Yet, somehow they are all experts on the bible, and know exacly what Jesus said or didn’t ‘said.’

These gurus are in such hurry to dissociate themselves from ‘Hinduism,'' and the ‘Hindu’ label probably because they don’t want to annoy the christians and muslims among their devotees. Thus, it would seem that for political and economic reasons, after stealing everything from the various Hindu sects and philosophies –yoga, ayurveda, Vedanta, Shaivism, Advaita, and Gita - these gurus sing out that they and their institutions are not in any way associated with Hinduism.

Contrast the actions of these contemporary Indian gurus with that of Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, who despite setting up his ashram exclusively in the west, openly and proudly wore his 'Hindu' tag till his very last days on the physical plane - never afraid to talk proudly about Hinduism and never shirking from educating others on Hinduism. His successor, monks, and devotees around the world also wear their hindu-shaivite tag proudly. The Satguru and his monks have numerous accomplishments to their credit, that have benefited not only Hinduism and Hindu society worldwide but also spiritually impacted non-hindus. They have also won numerous international awards and recognition for their contributions. Yet, they did all this as "Hindus." Paramaacharya, despite being an enlightened soul, never felt the need to shun his Hindu identity till the very end. So too Swami Vivekananda, Swami Sivananda, Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa…and the list of old Masters who continued to serve the people and the world as ‘Hindus’ goes on.

Why then cannot these contemporary Indian gurus feel the need to disassociate themselves Hinduism? Because they are only half-realized and cannot hold a candle to the great masters, and need christian endorsement to survive? Or are they hypocrites, and economic and political opportunists playing the field, where Christian donors and Church dictate the conditions of their existence and survival. Or is it their penchant for collecting jet-setting crowds, and international recognition and awards, that induces them to shun the very belief system from where they shamelessly steal their philosophies and teachings.




...Hindus need him?



What kind would you rather Hindus have?

The ambitious kind that collect the Hindu masses, lead them right up to the top of the cliff, and shove them off? The-shameless-peddler-of hindu-wisdom-but-mocks-hinduism-Deepak-Chopra kind? Indian society, and the world, could probably do with a few more swamis such as Swami Devananda than, I repeat, these new age, economically and politically ambitious Indian Gurus that mushroom throughout the country stealing from hinduism and then claiming that they have discovered a new spiritual technique. Am I repeating myself too much? – Good!

I close off my rather lengthy and probably tiresome comments, with the following observations by the Paramaacharya (Sage of Kanchi) in ‘Hindu Dharma’ (translations from the Tamil ‘Deivathan Kurul’):


“One big difference between Hinduism and other faiths is that it does not proclaim that it alone shows the path to liberation. Our Vedic religion alone has not practiced conversion and the reason for it is that our forefathers were well aware that all religions are nothing but different paths to realise the one and only Paramatman. The Vedas proclaim: "The wise speak of the One Truth by different names (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/referp1.htm#DIFFERENT NAMES). " Sri Krsna says in the Gita: "In whatever way or form a man worships me, I increase his faith and make him firm and steady in that worship (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/referp1.htm#WORSHIP). " And says one of the Azhvars: "Avaravar tamatamadu tarivari vahaivahai avaravar iraiyavar (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/referp1.htm#IRAIYAVAR)". This is the reason why the Hindus have not practiced- like adherents of other religions- proselytisation and religious persecution. Nor have they waged anything like the crusades or jehads (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/referp1.htm#JEHAD).

Our long history is sufficient proof of this. All historians accept the fact of our religious tolerance. They observe that, an empire like Srivijaya (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/referp1.htm#SRIVIJAYA)was established in the East, people there accepted our culture and our way of life willingly, not because they were imposed on them by force. They further remark that Hinduism spread through trade and not through force…

…All religions that practice conversion employ a certain ritual. For instance, there is baptism in Christianity. Hinduism has more ritual than any other religion, yet its canonical texts do not contain any rite for conversion. No better proof is needed for the fact that we have at no time either encouraged conversion or practiced it.

When a passenger arrives at a station by train he is besieged by the driver of the horse-cart, by the rikshavala, by the cabbie, and so on. He hires the vehicle in which he likes to be driven to his destination. It cannot be said with reason that those who ply different vehicles are guilty of competing with one another for the fare. After all it is their livelihood. But it makes no sense for the adherents of various faiths to vie with one another to take a man to the one and only destination that is God…. “



I wonder whether, in your opinion, Hindus would need someone like the Paramaacharya too….


Ohmshivaya

atanu
18 June 2009, 11:05 AM
I wonder whether, in your opinion, Hindus would need someone like the Paramaacharya too….

Ohmshivaya

Namaskar Ohmshivaya,

Thanks for the detailed write up. You are correct that I would stick to Paramacharya.

Om Namah Shivaya

saidevo
02 October 2009, 07:28 AM
Fresh light on the arrest of and case against the Kanchi Seer

Prof. Vaidyanathan exposes the nexus between the pseudo-secular state of India and the Abrahamic religions in a bid to destroy our Hindu dharma and culture, in this telling article. Please go through it and share it with others to spread the word:

Secular assault on the Sacred
R Vaidyanathan, 06 Sep 2009
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=790

eriko
05 October 2009, 12:52 AM
I think a rule should be made barring people from directly copying big blocks of text, since it is very difficulst to read. Please everyone summarise what you have to say and then post.

For defending Hindu Dharma, what I feel we need to do is to get rid of the Hindu secular beliefe. You know that all religions are equal and stuff. Not through violence and anyother method that is not beffiting of Hindu. But by bring clarity of thought among the young Indians.

1. People should be educated about the difference between religion and dharma.
2. The positive and scientific side of the Hindu Dharma should be presented. Don't just go ablout blah blah about how great is Hindu God. People who have little knowledge of Hindu Dharma don't like it.
3. Discourage people from following all those men who stand up and say that they are great Hindu gurus. It must be realized that most of them especially in the rural are fake and illiterate Hindus follow them blindly.
4. The above can be done that people should allways look up into the Gita for solutions.
5. If possible get that big blocks of Mughal histories removed from history text books.
6. One of the main things form a Hindu RTI group that files complains, and have legitimate lawyers to fight court battles. For eg in 1995 a complaint was filled by a hindu against giving away of funds for Haj to muslims because it was against constitution but the case was never taken up.

What I want to say it, speak the language of youth. I am the youngest memeber on this site, just 16. I know how my generation thinks. They don't want so many gods and it is very difficult to explain that it is a actually spritual energy that can be represented as none, any or multiple forms. And most of them are bored of religion, they don't want anything to do with it.

If you want to save Hindu Dharma you have to capture their imagination. They want science and so lets give them science that is Hindu science. Present Hindu Dharma as metaphysics and not religion.

I am not saying that lets indulge into politics but we should use Indian laws to protect our Dharma. The common Hindu cannot afford allienate himself from politics, we have to use every govt law to counter what that is being done against us. We have to have a legal battle.

chandu_69
05 October 2009, 10:11 PM
It is ironic that many Hindus today insist that they have understood or unlocked the ‘wholesome truth’ contained in the Bible (or Koran) when devout Christians (or Muslims),worldwide, including their spiritual leaders, and societies that have been practicing this religion from the time of its inception, have been unable to decipher the bible’s alleged ‘deeper’ meaning.

These stupid fellows(sorry) are the biggest stumbling block in opposing the attacks on Hinduism.Their numbers are not many but they are the most vocals and their capacity to hog the lime light is not something that cannot be wished away.

Harjas Kaur
06 October 2009, 03:37 AM
On one of his visits to India, Fr. George met with the Bengali saint Ananda Mai Ma. She instructed him to remain in the Christian religion and continue with his Christian practices. This is not unusual advice from a Hindu guru. In spite of their enlightenment, most of them are grossly ignorant -----

This kind of advice is insincere and irresponsible, ----

Every popular religious teacher in India today espouses some form or other of Advaitic philosophy. ----

Most modern Indian religious teachers do take Advaita Vedanta out of its original Vedic religious context, ------.”

Is the atma of a person the core, true identity which comes before a guru? Or is the religious identity or the nationality the core? Or is there something besides the nationality and creed?


22. Persons who, meditating on Me as non-separate, worship Me in all beings, to them thus ever jealously engaged, I carry what they lack and preserve what they already have. 22 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_213)

p. 211
23. Even those devotees, who endued with Shraddhâ, worship other gods, they too worship Me alone, O son of Kunti, (but) by the wrong method. 23 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_214)

24. For I alone am the Enjoyer, and Lord of all Yajnas; but because they do not know Me in reality, they return, (to the mortal world). 24 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_215)

p. 212
25. Votaries of the Devas go to the Devas; to the Pitris, go their votaries; to the Bhutas, go the Bhuta worshippers; My votaries too come unto Me. 25 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_216)

p. 213
26. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I accept—the devout gift of the pure-minded. 26 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_217)

27. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me.
p. 214
28. Thus shalt thou be freed from the bondages of actions, bearing good and evil results: with the heart steadfast in the Yoga of renunciation, and liberated, thou shalt come unto Me. 28 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_218)

29. I am the same to all beings: to Me there is none hateful or dear. But those who worship Me with devotion, are in Me, and I too am in them. 29 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg14.htm#fn_219)
Why would it not be wisdom to accept that people have religious faiths according to their temperament and karam and not require missionary conversion from one thing to another? If Srimad Bhagavatum says a Bhuta worshipper worships the Parabrahm but by wrong method, then Bhagavan is accepting every religious offering of ours, however mistaken, however tiny, and leading us closer to mukti.


Seldom have I seen such viper-like mischievousness as in the most recent strategies of the Christian mission in India. It is a viper with two teeth. On the one side, there is the gentle penetration through social and educational services, now compounded with a rhetoric of "inculturation": glib talk of "dialogue", "sharing", "common ground", fraudulent donning of Hindu robes by Christian monks, all calculated to fool Hindus about the continuity of the Christian striving to destroy Hinduism and replace it with the cult of Jesus.

There is no doubt. But I don't think western Christians have to convert either. I simply think conversion as a requirement is an abhorrent disrespect of the culture and validity of a person's own beliefs.

Beliefs can be wrong. Certainly the human mind itself is very small. If you stand on the moon and look down at the Earth with a microscope, the human brain is smaller than a bacterium. Yet we try to comprehend the immensity. Of course we are wrong. We are limited. So beliefs are not the most important thing. We are not the brain. We are something more refined than this. Everyone of us is made of the same soul-stuff.

Politically, nationalism is important. But spiritually, nationalism is something that fades away. Even the earth will fade away. None of these labels, or these languages we use to describe will last. From a spiritual point of view, demolishing a religious figure or faith of someone else is a bad thing. People cling to religion in times of distress or need. And we have no right to take that away from them. Let their guru guide them.

On the other hand, criminal mischief should be exposed. But that is not the same thing as demolishing a person or a belief. For one thing, the tribals wouldn't be converting if the government of India would pay attention to the needs. So there has to be an outreach back to the people, to the poor, the under-educated, to meet the needs as a Hindu society. It's definitely the fault of evil-doers but also the fault of negligence behind these problems.


You are one of the very few Hindu writers working today who has understood the truth about Christianity and the insidious influence it has had on our educated and governing classes. I particularly appreciate your criticism of Yogananda Paramahansa of California. For the last hundred years our mahatmas (including Mahaatma Gandhi) and god men have misled the people --------



Swami Chidananda of Shivananda Aashram at Rishikesh is a prime example of this kind of Christianized Hindu sadhu who has gained a world following by undermining the very integrity of Hindu Dharma.


I never heard anything bad about Paramahansa Yogananda or any of his group. He came to America, a predominantly Christian country and was a fine teacher. He spoke to people where they were at. What is the evil thing? Because he tried to point out the parallel teachings in Bible and Bhagavad-Gita? What about bhuta worshippers? A teacher should not come to them and bring message of peace and unity? Do you think immigrants to America would have an easier time if Hindu gurus and swamis did not first come here to broaden some degree of tolerance and understanding?

You realize Paramahansa Yogananda was in America when the KKK was at it's peak. Imagine how different America would be today without all these people who came to teach the general "Christian" public a thing or two about the beauty of Dharmic faiths. I know a few people who are members of SRF, both Indian and White and they all all very sweet people. And not one of them in the years I've known them has ever been interested in converting others, proselytizing, or advancing Christian missionary agendas. I also know Radha Soamis and they are also very sincere. What is this guys problem? You should not make a friend into an enemy.


Unlike Christian priests who study Hindu scriptures and doctrines in depth for years, they have never read the Bible or studied the imperialist Christian ideologies that have be formulated out of the Bible story. They are helpless, and they are made even more helpless by their own superficially understood and secularised doctrines of an abstract, impersonal, and all-pervasive Brahman godhead.

You know, there's a lot more to the Bible than you think. There is a lot of suppression historically, and in the mainstream Christian Churches which explains all this. To avoid big blocks of text I will cont.

(Cont.)

Harjas Kaur
06 October 2009, 04:06 AM
Swami Devananda is correct when he laments about Hindus trying to interpret the Bible and Koran solely from a Hindu perspective, without understanding that the two religions and their scriptures were not conceived and written by Hindus. These two religions were conceived and built on exclusivism. One needs to stop analyzing these two religions and their books from the point of view of Hinduism, and instead see them in the light of the socio-political and cultural context underlying the creation of these two institutions (Christianity and Islam) and their purport.

It is ironic that many Hindus today insist that they have understood or unlocked the ‘wholesome truth’ contained in the Bible (or Koran) when devout Christians (or Muslims),worldwide, including their spiritual leaders, and societies that have been practicing this religion from the time of its inception, have been unable to decipher the bible’s alleged ‘deeper’ meaning.

All of these holy books speak to human cultures and human needs at varying states of time. Is there anything human which we can exclude from our consciousness? We don't all feel the same sorrows, joys, hopes?

First of all, take the Bible. The Christians added the Jewish holy scriptures with the later apostolic writings and made one thing. Christianity really has nothing to do with Judaism. Judaism doesn't even believe in conversions. They have their own thing and that is their beautiful human right.

Now, to us, 4,000 years later, reading the Old Testament of the Bible some things might sound colonial and barbaric. But for one thing, to the Jews, not all of these writings carry the same weight as the Torah, which is the first 5 books. And the Torah has to be understood from the original Hebrew language. The Hebrew language is written in a coded numerical symbolism called gematriya. Now, when a Torah scholar reads an English translation of Hebrew scriptures, he can't believe how many errors are in it.

Let me give an example:

There's a story about a man who is a righteous priest. The righteous priest lived during the time of Judges, before there were kings in Israel. It was considered a sin for a Jew to marry someone not a Jew. One of the Judges fell in love with a foreigner and married her. The righteous priest came with a spear and killed them both to protect the sanctity of Israel. He was rewarded by God by being elected the high priest.

A torah scholar read that version and corrected it from his knowledge of Hebrew and Judaism. There was a man with the name of Cohen Tzadik, which means righteous priest. He was a descendent from the lineage of a great righteous priest but not necessarily one himself, that was his lineage. There was a judge in Israel before the time of kings who met his basherta, his soul-mate. And even though she was not a Jew, he loved her and risked ridicule to be with her.

This man from the family of Cohen Tzadik murdered them both, but with a very good intention. He committed a sin because he killed two beloveds united by God. So God had to teach him a lesson. God gave him the responsibility of being the High Priest for all the people. His job was to beg the forgiveness and mercy of God for all the sins of the people and be their advocate. Because if a man could not cry tears of compassion for the sufferings and failings of others before God, he was not fit to be High Priest.

So to awaken spirituality in this man, God wanted him to become a man of compassion and pray for the weaknesses of others.


So it's clear that we can't judge a book by it's cover, or expect that the worst interpretations of something is the truth. There are beautiful, high noble truths underlying all religious scriptures, just as there are distortions. To a brahmgyani who has Turiya consciousness, the distinctions are superficial. Errors are there, yes. But truth is there also. A saint gazes at the diamond in the mud. A fool is only looking at the dirt.

Now this is not to say that people who demonize or distort someone's faith to gain converts and money shouldn't be stopped. It is saying, we shouldn't become those people.


"As men approach Me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to Me." ~Bhagavad Gita 4.11
"They have called him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and the divine fine-winged Garuda; They speak of Indra, Yama, Matrarisvan: the One Being sages call by many names." ~Rig Veda 1.164.46


ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੂਰਾ ॥
jo eis maarae soee sooraa ||
One who kills this is a spiritual hero.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
jo eis maarae soee pooraa ||
One who kills this is perfect.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
jo eis maarae thisehi vaddiaaee ||
One who kills this obtains glorious greatness.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
jo eis maarae this kaa dhukh jaaee ||1||
One who kills this is freed of suffering. ||1||

ਐਸਾ ਕੋਇ ਜਿ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
aisaa koe j dhubidhhaa maar gavaavai ||
How rare is such a person, who kills and casts off duality.

ਇਸਹਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
eisehi maar raaj jog kamaavai ||1|| rehaao ||
Killing it, he attains Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji ang 237

Harjas Kaur
06 October 2009, 05:53 AM
Now before there even was a Christian Bible, there were lots of different sects of Christians, in different countries and they believed different things. And one day the sect which gained political power came to arrest, torture and kill the others. So they fled out of their countries, and through India, and all the way to Tibet and China.

Those people were the Gnostic Christians led by a mystic called Mani. The Dalai Lama has talked about how some Tibetan monasteries have preseved the actual words of Jesus. That Jesus, was Mani. And the Manichean beliefs are now interwoven with Tibetan and Pure Land Buddhism sects. So the intermingling of spiritual beliefs is already there, predating us by a couple thousand years. But it was a Christianity that modern missionaries wouldn't even recognize.


"This development continued to Manichaeism's ultimate meeting with Chinese Buddhism, where, for example, the original Aramaic "karia" (the "call" from the world of light to those seeking rescue from the world of darkness), becomes identified in the Chinese scriptures with Guan Yin (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Guan_Yin) (觀音, literally, "hearing sounds [of the world]," the Bodhisattva (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Bodhisattva) of Compassion in Chinese Buddhism). and languages, it also adapted new religious deities from the surrounding religions into the Manichaean."http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Manicheanism


"The extent of Mani’s dependence on Buddhism is a matter that has been much disputed. The attention of scholars was first directed to this possible source of Manichæism by the discovery of important features that are radically opposed to Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity, and by the traditional historical connection of Mani with India and Turkestan...

It is certain that parallels can be found in Buddhism for almost every feature of Manichæism that is sharply antagonistic to Zoroastrianism. The Buddhist view of matter as antagonistic to spirit is fundamental. It is the world of matter that deludes. It is the body and its passions that prevent the longed-for Nirvana.

The Manichæan looked upon the elements of light (life) contained in animals and plants as particles of God, and any injury done to them as a hindrance to the escape of these elements, to be conveyed away into the Kingdom of Light. Both looked upon sexual intercourse as among the greatest of evils, though the theory in the two cases was slightly different. So of the drinking of wine, the eating of animal food, etc. The final state was conceived of in substantially the same way in the two systems.

Nirvana, the blowing out of man’s life as an individual entity, is quite paralleled by the Manichæan view of the gradual escape of the imprisoned particles of light into the Kingdom of Light. In both cases the divine pleroma is to be restored in such a way as to destroy individual consciousness."
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_I/Volume_IV/Manichaean_Controversy/Introductory_Essay/The_Relation_of_Manichaeism_to_Buddhism
A Divine Mother of Compassion. Gods and Goddesses. Vegetarianism. Reincarnation. Delusive nature of Maya in matter. Jyoti Jyot. Some variations of early Christianity are radically different from what we expect. Now a brahmgyani would know all this history. And a holy person could easily find original parallels within Christianity which are hidden and suppressed.

What is ignorant is to think that in this Kaliyuga our spiritual communications have not been distorted from something more pure. I just think our human understanding is not that great, and our religions suit our level of development which is generally not very high. But there is still a thread of something precious, some ideal yearned for, some profound and wonderful mysteries alluded to, in every religious teaching.

I mean what is Hindu nationality? Have you always been Hindu? Before you were born were you Hindu or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist? Or is there something beyond these labels?

If you believe in reincarnation, did you aways take birth in a "Hindu" body? And is there really such a thing? Might you not at some time in history have been a Muslim, a Christian? Yogananda said a very interesting thing. (Paraphrase, my memory a little frail) He said something like, "a lot of Hindus from India are being born in America. And a lot of Americans are being born in India. Soon we will see India become more materialistic and corrupt and the west begin to study yoga and become more spiritual."

The Dalai Lama also said "the (Buddhist) Dharma will shine in the West."

Nationalism makes for good politics, but terrible spiritual interpretations. The atma has no nationality or borders.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji the founder of Sikhism is believed by Tibetan Buddhists to be the reincarnation of Padmasambhava. For this reason, lamas make pilgrimage to the Golden Temple. Most Sikhs don't believe or accept this. Should they criticize the Dalai Lama and rudely tell him how ignorant he is of Sikh religion? And what if he is right?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00652/news-graphics-2007-_652315a.jpg
His Holiness the Dalai Lama visiting Golden Temple, Amritsar

I think if all the channels, shamans, prophets, teachers, saints, and mystics were to get together and be absolutely clear about the impressions of Divine understanding they had received, they would all harmonize with the teachings of the Rishis. Why? Because "Truth is one, men call it by many names."



"Guru Nanak went to Mecca. At night he was lying down with his feet toward the Kaaba, the house of God. The clergy-men over there rebuked him, "Why are you lying with your feet toward the house of God?" He politely told them, "Dear friend, I see God all around, there is no place where He is not. If you think there is any side where God is not, you may turn my feet that way." You see? So Masters say, "All is holy where devotion kneels." This is the first right understanding.


A great Muslim Saint says, "The whole earth is blessed because God permeates all. If my followers find the time for prayers they can sit on any ground anywhere and say prayers to God. No matter what way their face is - because God is everywhere." The Koran, the Muslim scripture, also says: "God is everywhere." It matters little whether we face toward West or East; say your prayers where you are.


So this is the first right understanding: We are living in Him, have our being in Him, He is in us, outside us, above us, below us. Like fish we have our existence in Him. That is right understanding. And further: God made man with equal privileges, all born the same way, no high, no low; all have got the same outer concessions - eyes, ears, etc., - and all have the same inner concession: we are kept in the body by some higher Power which is the same for all. So this is right understanding: that we have this thing - God resides in every heart - and that all is holy where devotion kneels, all are born with the same privileges from God - no high, no low, no East, no West. And this will result in right thoughts.


On my last visit a meeting was called for the East and the West. Others who were visiting America attended this meeting, and I was also one of them. Each man told us where he was from. When my turn came up, I told them: "It is said, of course, that `East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.' But there is no East and no West: the whole creation is the House of our Father. All countries are so many rooms in that House. It is we who made these things, on account of our want of right understanding." ~Sant Kirpal Singh
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/coming.htm

I support Ananda Moyi Ma and Paramahansa Yogananda and Deepak Chopra And Swami Chidvilisananda as not being demolished at all, and the person doing political nindya against them as being very limited in understanding.

http://miportalespiritual.com/imagen/anandamoyi.jpg
Ananda Moyi Ma

http://www.anandaworldwide.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/clarityonlinemaster.jpg
Paramahansa Yogananda

http://www.unity-of-man.org/images/uom01/kirpalsingh.jpg
Sant Kirpal Singh

Condemning and criticizing other people's saints and gurus is against Dharma. It is not defending Dharma. Expose obvious evil-doing but don't destroy the faith of others.

chandu_69
06 October 2009, 08:36 AM
Namaste Harjas Kaur (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=747) ji,

I would like to respond to your lengthy post on some of it's important points after you respond to a small query of mine(if you dont mind).


Why would it not be wisdom to accept that people have religious faiths according to their temperament and karam and not require missionary conversion from one thing to another?

Hinduism never had any problems with other faiths.The problem with Socalled Abrahamic religions like christianity(and islam) is they have an exclusivistic view on faith.It is like "either you are with me or against me"(ex: bible nt: luke :11 :23).

So, if you want to accept that their faith is correct you will have to accept that your faith is wrong.There is no other way.

How do you respond to this core ideology of these faiths?

Eastern Mind
06 October 2009, 08:50 AM
So, if you want to accept that their faith is correct you will have to accept that your faith is wrong.There is no other way.



This is too black and white. My way is right, your way is wrong.

Why not say: My way is right for me. Your way is right for you. Why does there have to be one right way? That's like saying there is a universal diet that all should eat, or a universal colour that all should accept as the best. (It IS blue, by the way.)

Aum Namasivaya

chandu_69
06 October 2009, 09:26 AM
This is too black and white. My way is right, your way is wrong.

Yes, it is black and white, but Who is going to tell them(the Evangelists and jihadis).It has been that way and it is still that way with the socalled Abrahamic religions(Btw, jews, the original Abrahamic people mind their own faith).

Em ji,

you and Harjas Kaur are directing this advice to wrong people i.e. the Hindus.Hindus never had the attitude to impose their faith on others.




Why not say: My way is right for me. Your way is right for you. Why does there have to be one right way?

It never worked. Hindus were saying this For time immemorial while the evangelists and Jihadis were having their own way of imposing their respective faiths on Indians by way of Allurement or threat.

bhaktajan
06 October 2009, 10:46 AM
Judge a man by his actions.

So a civilisation that starts and ends the day with the accomplishment "that so many people enjoy comfortable lives" ---yet, where butcher-shops operate as just another enterprise among the scores of other "means of making a living" ---adds up to a samskara that consistantly delivers-up another generation destined for war. War afford people to apply themselves in austerites sacrifices etc ---in a ironical vicious cycle predicated on wonton digressions over the cource of each Peace-Time that defaults back to being the status quo of the day.

Carpe diem should not equate to just another day of accumulated karmic debt.

Carpe diem is a phrase from a Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) poem by Horace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace). It is popularly translated as "seize the day". The general definition of carpe is "pick, pluck, pluck off, gather" as in plucking, although Horace uses the word in the sense of "enjoy, make use of."

Harjas Kaur
06 October 2009, 05:51 PM
Hinduism never had any problems with other faiths.The problem with Socalled Abrahamic religions like christianity(and islam) is they have an exclusivistic view on faith.It is like "either you are with me or against me"(ex: bible nt: luke :11 :23).

So, if you want to accept that their faith is correct you will have to accept that your faith is wrong.There is no other way.

How do you respond to this core ideology of these faiths?

First of all, I live in the United States. So I am familiar with the many different sects of Christianity including live near a very nice orthodox Jewish group and have had respectful and interesting conversations with some of their Rabbis. This is why I pointed out, respectfully to you, that although Judaism is indeed Abrahamic, I know for a fact that missionary conversion is against their teachings.

So you err by over-generalizing ALL Abrahamic faiths as being one and the same thing, out to convert and destroy other cultures.

You must also understand, there are so many different ideologies among these many Christian groups. Some are quite fanatical and equivalent to jihadis. I do not deny or ignore their danger. You don't know me but I have written expose on these groups for years warning of the dangers.

My concern with this thread is that Hindus (I am a Hindu-Sikh) are in danger of veering into an equal extreme in response to this menace. What will people gain if they lose Dharma trying to protect Dharma? So, from that perspective I think a reasoned balance is required.


You do realize that Jihadis target Jews, not so much due to religion, but due to the politics of the Israel-Palestinian conflict which is terribly unfortunate with evil things being done by both sides. However, if we take a blanket political view that All Abrahamic religions are BAD, and they ALL want to forcibly and fradulently CONVERT, we will misjudge the intentions of the Jews in India who are interested in outreach to ancient communities of fellow Jews there ONLY. And then our response will not be reasoned and balanced, but extremist and unfair.


Moshe'le Holtzberg Crys "Mommy!"

An emotional video of the Mumbai Jewish community and an Israeli delegation which held a ceremony in memory of the men and women murdered by terrorists at the Chabad center.

Rabbi Shimon Rosenberg, the father of Chabad emissary and terrorst victim Mrs. Rivka Holtzberg, spoke of moving from Israel to Mumbai and run the Chabd House there in till Little Moshe'le grows up and is old enough to lead it himself.

Mrs' Rosenberg the grandmother broke into tears as she hears her 2 year-old grandson Moishe'le cry and search for his mother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ8zIa9j2LA

So, you are asking me personally, and I'm honestly trying to explain. I would without hesitation support armed combat if necessary to stop an evil person from committing a crime against people I love and my own community. In some cases the missionary outreach in India must be stopped through force and there is no other way.

However, if people are to act from Dharmic principles, first they must not do what the fanatics do, and that is to mix one thing together with another thing. All Jews are not BAD, all Christians are not BAD, all Muslims are not BAD. To demonize a religion (Sikhs are familiar with this) makes a target out of everybody in that religion. And then innocent people get killed.

When a religious group feels assaulted, aggrieved, and their rights denied. Sometimes they overreact. This was the case with Ajaib Singh Bagri who announced publicly that 50,000 Hindus should be killed in retaliation for Operation Bluestar. And the following year Air India 182 exploded mid-flight killing all 329 people including women and children.



Air India 182 - Trailer

On June 22, 1985, Air India 182 left Montreal, bound for New Delhi. Four hours after takeoff, a bomb ripped through the baggage compartment, killing all 329 people on board. It was the most deadly act of air terrorism in history before 9/11. The film counts down the final weeks and hours before Air India 182 disappeared off Irish radar screens and we sleepwalked into the era of international terrorism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/077c3Sm20c2GA/340x.jpg
Air India flight 182 memorial

This is how inflammatory anger overreacts and loses Dharma. We have to defend the Dharma against all onslaughts of evil, and this includes the distortions and tendancies in our own minds and hearts. To protect the precious Dharma, it must be from within as well as from without.

Since that time, the Sikh radicals have done nothing but demonize Hindus as evil. Is this right? Is this Dharma? Should Sikhs listen to them and walk that path? Should Hindus listen to you? Where will your path lead if genocide is the predictable result of ostracizing and demonizing anybody? Does this make anybody's communities safer?

So it is my honest opinion that this approach is too short sighted. You think you are solving one problem by waking up communities to a danger, but you risk creating a larger problem that in demonizing an entire religion, people will overreact and scapegoat those groups and going to the same level as the fanatics by targeting innocents for hatred and animosity and violence.


So, if you want to accept that their faith is correct you will have to accept that your faith is wrong.There is no other way.

How do you respond to this core ideology of these faiths?

If I accept their faith is correct then I believe in their exclusivity teaching. But because I believe they have a wrong understanding of profound spiritual concepts I don't invent an exclusivity teaching of my own to shun them. I won't waste my time arguing with them either. I accept that they are at a level of spiritual development where an extremist faith speaks to them and meets their needs. I have the maturity to recognize that until those needs are met, the extremism won't stop either. So it really isn't a religious or interpretive scripture issue. There are politics of deprivation and feelings of wretchedness and being wronged which are at issue here.

And I reiterate, if you want to stop the missionaries in India then you have to address the needs of the communities they exploit. These are usually the tribals, the poor, the Dalits, the discriminated. These are the people converting to Christianity, Islam and Communism with a hate for India.


"The word 'dalit(a)' comes from the Sanskrit - root 'dal' - and means 'held under check' ,'suppressed', or 'crushed', or, in a looser sense, 'oppressed'.
Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, a Dalit, and one of the leaders of India's Independence movement, is considered the chief architect of the Indian Consitution, in which Article 17 abolishes untouchability. Since, under the aegis of the Constitution of India affirmative action has now been implemented for the uplift of the 'Dalits'.

The term scheduled castes/scheduled tribes (SC/ST) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Scheduled-Castes-and-Tribes) along with non-caste tribes (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Adivasi) are also used in the Indian legal system (http://www.statemaster.com/graph-T/gov_leg_sys) to refer to this social group in India."
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Dalit-%28outcaste%29
We have to address why they hate and why they are hurt before we can ever win their hearts in any debate with fundamentalists.

Now believe me when I say I'm familiar with fundamentalists. There are pro-Khalistanis in most North American Sikh sangats. They only talk about how wronged they are and how evil the other community is. This is the psychology which attunes them to retributive violence. So when a Hindu group starts talking the same dynamics as the Khalistanis, I feel it will result in the same kind of "counter-terrorism" to the one perceived. I agree missionaries have to be stopped. They are funded by foreign governments with the intention to take over vote blocs in India and influence Indian elections favorable to the foreign powers. But stopping missionaries and curtailing their agenda is radically different from demonizing and trashing EVERY Christian community. You don't like it when they do it to Hindus. What makes you think you will succeed when you do it to them?

What you are dealing with in the Indian Christian missionary phenomenon is not really a religious group of fanatics. But a religious group funded and trained by the American CIA for a subversive military purpose. And it makes me wonder who is behind the Hindu fundamentalists. Because if all sides are working against the center, soon the center will give way. And that is the ultimate anti-nationalism.

Overreacting to Christians in general won't solve any of these problems. The nature of these problems is far more insidious. That's why we need to address with dasvandh/charity the needs of the communities the missionaries target. We should back policies which break down barriers of discrimination, lack of housing, food, child labor, exploitation in the form of criminal gangs and forced prostitution, the destruction of farmers by Monsanto. Until we meet the egregious needs, don't be surprised to see missionaries and Naxals and jihadis and Khalistanis. That is where they recruit their militants from, from the discriminated and aggrieved. Look at the document China has written stating India should be broken into pieces by turning one community against another. In targeting the Christian missionary problem you might be playing into China's game plan. And since the US is indebted to China, it might also be the CIA's game plan.

But in any event, you have to look at who is manipulating and funding the fundamentalists.


Break India, says China think-tank
TNN 12 August 2009, 02:21am IST

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Break-India-says-China-think-tank/articleshow/4883573.cms
You will no more stop a demonic mentality who is a fundamentalist bent on conversion then you will stop a criminal from committing crimes. So why should we develop a demonic mentality in return by isolating others, by Hindu exclusivism, by hating and trashing the beliefs and teachings of others? If you have a higher belief and teaching, what is there to prove? Your "enemy" is greater than you even imagine if you think it's just jihadi groups and fundamentalist groups.

Naxals behead kidapped policeman PTI
Wednesday, October 07th, 2009
http://www.sakaaltimes.com/2009/10/07000816/Naxals-behead-kidapped-policem.html
http://www.sakaaltimes.com/Article/7bbb4fc3-ce1d-4f2a-8201-d9331c6777e6100_100_secvpf.gif
Jharkhand police officer Francis Induwar’s wife Sunati Indwar, centre, cries after her husband’s body was found on Tuesday

There are games within games within games being played at India's expense. And the central government had better wake up to the threat. But waking up to the threat doesn't mean becoming a Hindu fundamentalist with zero tolerance of other nationalities or religions. That simply means your enemy has already won and you lose Dharma.


"We are only in the very dawn of COMMERCE, and we owe that dawn, with all its promise to the channels opened up by CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ... The effect of the missionary enterprise of the English speaking people will be to bring them the ... CONQUEST OF THE WORLD."- Rev. Frederick Gates, Baptist Minister

Letter to John D. Rockefeller, Sr.

April 17, 1905

Christian Missionaries, CIA Agents?
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/10/19/christian-missionaries-cia-agents/

We don't have to deal with them through a similar version of religious hatred. But they should be dealt with as anti-nationalists, agitators, and threats to the security of the nation of India. They should be exposed as part of a Colonial paradigm of repression and hate against Hinduism and Hindu culture. They should be exposed as part of a racist agenda to slander and defame all nationalities of indigenous Indian persons.

So I think them no less a threat. But I don't lump every Christian group into the same category. And I don't think trashing respected Hindu saints and swamis does less than their agenda to derail Dharmic teaching and replace it with an asuric counterpart answerable to neferious foreign governments.

Bhul chak maaf karni ji

Eastern Mind
06 October 2009, 06:35 PM
Harjas Kaur:

I agree. We have to stand up. Not in the same way they (Christians, Islam) do, but in defense, and in educational ways. But words are useless without action in these matters. I'm not sure what I could do now, in my position, but I did successfully get the organisation 'Samaritan's Purse' out of the school I used to work in by making a fuss. And every time I encounter some young missionary going overseas, I put in my two bits that "The Hindus are fine without you." The government of India has to peacefully ban coerced conversion, and follow up on it with the law. There is a lot of work. Even amongst Hindus themselves. The few of us here who recognised the problem were in a hurry to build our temple. Some of the Sri Lankans especially were going to Christian churches. But once we got Ganesha worship going, they came bacxk over right away.

It is one thing to talk about it on forums such as these, and totally another to write a letter to your congressman pointing the agression of certain groups, and how it impacts America`s image internationally.

Aum Namasivaya

chandu_69
06 October 2009, 07:23 PM
Harjas Kaur:

I agree. We have to stand up. Not in the same way they (Christians, Islam) do, but in defense, and in educational ways. But words are useless without action in these matters. I'm not sure what I could do now, in my position, but I did successfully get the organisation 'Samaritan's Purse' out of the school I used to work in by making a fuss. And every time I encounter some young missionary going overseas, I put in my two bits that "The Hindus are fine without you." The government of India has to peacefully ban coerced conversion, and follow up on it with the law. There is a lot of work. Even amongst Hindus themselves. The few of us here who recognised the problem were in a hurry to build our temple. Some of the Sri Lankans especially were going to Christian churches. But once we got Ganesha worship going, they came bacxk over right away.

It is one thing to talk about it on forums such as these, and totally another to write a letter to your congressman pointing the agression of certain groups, and how it impacts America`s image internationally.

Aum Namasivaya

Thank you.

chandu_69
06 October 2009, 08:00 PM
Harjas Kaur ji,

Le me tell you at the outset i don't intend to be disrespectful to you and if i come across as rude pls accept my apologies.

I do have some what indepth understanding of the Abrahamic religions and their actual practice and hence i beleive i am in a better position relatively in countering your views.


First of all, I live in the United States. So I am familiar with the many different sects of Christianity..

I had never been to US but i have friends living in the Bible belt and from their experience i can tell that the tolerance of the people there is much better than some of the christians living in Indian places like Assam and kerala.. The tolerance of these people has nothing to do with the 'core principles" of christianity.


This is why I pointed out, respectfully to you, that although Judaism is indeed Abrahamic, I know for a fact that missionary conversion is against their teachings.

I already pointed out this in my earlier post.The jews wrote in their books(Noahide laws) that "non jews" can achieve salvation in principle without converting to Judaism.

But the christian view is entirely exclusivist.I am not saying this ;It is the vatican that says this.

statement of Pope Benedict:(http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html)

In our days, when in vast areas of the world the faith is in danger of dying out like a flame which no longer has fuel, the overriding priority is to make God present in this world and to show men and women the way to God. Not just any god, but the God who spoke on Sinai.

More details (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P7E.HTM)



So you err by over-generalizing ALL Abrahamic faiths as being one and the same thing, out to convert and destroy other cultures.

Over generalizing people is wrong.But i stick to my original assertion that for these faiths(excluding Judaism) converting other faiths to their own is in their "core teachings".we can have a seperate debate on this.


My concern with this thread is that Hindus (I am a Hindu-Sikh) are in danger of veering into an equal extreme in response to this menace. What will people gain if they lose Dharma trying to protect Dharma? So, from that perspective I think a reasoned balance is required.

I agree with you on this.But i find it difficult to Understand your objections to the article posted by Ohmshivaya.the article is well written and accurate.


To demonize a religion (Sikhs are familiar with this)...

How can any Hindu demonize Sikhism ?, when it was born out of necessity and actually saved Hinduism from jihadis in parts of Punjab.

Thanks to the legendary KPS Gill the ghosts of khalistan are buried.


Where will your path lead if genocide is the predictable result of ostracizing and demonizing anybody?

Objective criticism make people aware and the chances of people falling prey to these hatefull ideologies will considerably reduce.

chandu_69
06 October 2009, 08:15 PM
On the question of caste(dalits) discrimantion none of the faiths are immune to this problem.

A few links mentioned below will break the myth that casteism is unique to hinduism.

http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/CRI.htm
http://arya-shakti-dal.blogspot.com/2008/08/tamil-nadu-dalit-christians-to-return.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims

Harjas Kaur
07 October 2009, 01:20 AM
I don't consider your queries as being disrespectful in any way. And the truth is I already agree with most of your positions. But there is a certain trend in this viewpoint that I believe leads to a reverse form of exclusivism. And the reason for my belief is my experience with Khalistanis.


How can any Hindu demonize Sikhism ?, when it was born out of necessity and actually saved Hinduism from jihadis in parts of Punjab.

Thanks to the legendary KPS Gill the ghosts of khalistan are buried.
Actually, KPS Gill is a convicted rapist. He committed unspeakable atrocities against Sikhs through terrific abuses of police power in the Punjab which are directly responsible for the continued support for militancy to this day. And this is exactly the kind of reverse fanaticism I'm speaking about.

Wanting to crush the militancy, he went far beyond the bounds of Dharma and actually ordered gang-rapes of mothers, sisters, wives and daughters, including 12 year old girls who were families of suspected (never had a day in court) militants. He is responsible for ordering tortures, not only against suspected militants, but of their family members.

I can assure you, the people who support Pakistan and China against India today were profoundly traumatized by police "overreaction." And this is why I beg you all to stay within the bounds of Dharma. You may not realize how easy it is to begin intellectually justifying what amount to crimes against a hated "other."

http://www.sikhlionz.com/18.jpg
Some things beg the question of "who is a militant?"
When police begin to target even young children for murder because of suspected associations of their family members, we have a genocide of a hated group.

If KPS Gill is responsible for these mass murders and mass rapes and mass tortures, he will answer to the Jamdhoot. It's legendary all right. Sad to tell you but the ghosts of Khalistan are far from dead, he made sure of that. The militants now actively work with jihadis in Pakistan. The actions of Punjab Police only created hatreds which will last generations. Following this path, India will destroy itself.

This is exactly what we should NOT support.

You should listen to the man who KPS Gill abducted, tortured and killed in order to silence his petition to the High Court to expose the mass cremations and genocides of Amritdhari Sikhs in Punjab.
Jaswant Singh Khalra's Last International Speech
On September 6, 1995, the Punjab police abducted, tortured, and murdered human rights defender Jaswant Singh Khalra because he exposed the disappearances and killings of thousands of Sikhs by the Punjab police. In his last speech made to a Canadian audience, released with subtitles by Ensaaf (www.ensaaf.org) (http://www.ensaaf.org%29), Jaswant Singh Khalra discusses his investigations into the disappearances and his readiness to die to expose the truth about these crimes. This video includes clips from his speech made at Dixie Gurdwara (Sikh house of worship) in Toronto, Canada in April 1995, at a conference organized by the radio station Ankhila Punjab. Khalra pinpoints KPS Gill, then Director General of Punjab police, as the person in charge of the systematic abuses perpetrated by the Punjab police, and discusses the standard responses made by Gill to cover-up the mass secret cremations. Khalra further describes his struggle before the Punjab and Haryana High Court for accountability for these mass state crimes.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6027286376112784432


"Thousands of people were killed between 1984 and 1994 as a result of the Sikh separatist insurgency in the Indian state of Punjab. "The decade-long police crackdown of [sic] the insurgency…led to the deaths of at least 40,000 people in Punjab" (CCDP Jun 2003), including 10,000 civilians (AI 20 Jan 2003). Combatants on both sides of the conflict committed grave human rights abuses (AI 20 Jan 2003).


According to Human Rights Watch:
"Police counter-insurgency efforts included torture, forced disappearances, and a bounty system of cash rewards for the summary execution of suspected Sikh militants. The campaign succeeded in eliminating most of the major militant groups, and by early 1993, the government claimed that normalcy had returned to the state. Police abuses continued, however, and there was no effort to account for hundreds of forced disappearances and summary killings. Even though the identity of the perpetrators is well documented, no one has been successfully prosecuted by the state" (HRW 10 Jun 2003)...

Meanwhile, witnesses to the 1995 killing of human rights lawyer Jaswant Singh Khalra, the last activist killed in Punjab, have also had false criminal charges filed against them, apparently to discourage them from testifying. And activists working on the case reportedly have been intimidated or otherwise harassed, Amnesty International says, citing a series of incidents in 1998 (AI 20 Jan 2003; AI 1 Apr 1998). Khalra disappeared in police custody while investigating alleged mass cremations by police, during the insurgency, of the bodies of militants who had disappeared (CCDP Jun 2003). Nine police officials were on trial for Khalra's killing as of early 2003 (AI 20 Jan 2003; AI 1 Apr 1998).


Another activist who has felt the ire of Punjab authorities is Vineeta Gupta, a medical doctor who was illegally detained and had her private clinic raided in 2001, apparently because of her opposition to the closure of a hospital (AI 20 Jan 2003). Dr. Gupta, who now heads the non-profit Insaaf International, resigned as a medical officer in the Punjab health service in the late 1990s after facing years of official harassment for her criticism of alleged corruption in the service and efforts to secure the removal of torture devices from Punjab police stations (AI 26 Apr 2000).


In addition to targeting activists and eyewitnesses, Punjab police reportedly have also harassed family members who are seeking justice for relatives who disappeared or were killed in police custody during the Sikh insurgency. The family members "routinely received threats of 'dire consequences' and sometimes get implicated in false criminal cases," a prominent Indian human rights lawyer said in a 2002 e-mail to the Resource Information Center (RIC) (Indian human rights lawyer 31 Jul 2002)." http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,USCIS,,IND,4562d8cf2,3fe0dd804,0.html
We can't glorify genocide of an opposition and delude ourselves into thinking it's correct and Dharmic way to deal with those we believe are "enemies." We have to evolve more spiritual maturity and intelligence than this. Otherwise, "we" become the asuras.

Dharma has to be the voice and force of justice, not political rhetoric or propaganda which demonizes the innocent along with the guilty. And we need to support those proper systems of justice which are fair and ethical. Torture devices are an obscene evil and have no business in police stations. When did police become judge, jury and executioners? In what kind of justice system? And someone dares to call it "Hindu?" "Dharmic?"

It slanders the terms.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6606/kpsgillsj5.jpg
KPS Gill, the "legendary."

http://www.witness84.com/images/khalra.jpg
Jaswant Singh Khalra, the martyr.
The Cremation Grounds

"In 1994 Jaswant Singh Khalra and Jaspal Singh Dhillon of the Human Rights Wing of the Akali Dal 1 (HRW) set out to investigate what had happened to Punjab’s 'disappeared'. Acting on information that police regularly brought bodies to municipal cremation grounds as ‘unclaimed’, they began to search cremation ground records and found that records of bodies brought in by police remained in the receipt books recording the firewood issued for each cremation. Khalra and Dhillon discovered that in just three cremation grounds, within a single district, 3,000 bodies had been cremated as unclaimed or unidentified by police between 1984 and 1994. As it is now known that over 50 cremation grounds across Punjab were regularly used by police to dispose of bodies, even a conservative application of these figures to other grounds means that the estimated number of those cremated by police as ‘unclaimed’ across Punjab could help account for the tens of thousands of people who disappeared in the conflict.

The HRW investigation revealed that police regularly cremated as ‘unclaimed’ the bodies of those who were executed in custody or had died as a result of torture, without informing their families, as a way of concealing police responsibility for these deaths. In fact, far from being ‘unclaimed' or 'unidentified', many of those cremated were actually named in the cremation ground records, and were recorded as having died of bullet wounds or other forms of violence. These police practices were in absolute contradiction of the law, which states that a magistrate must conduct an inquiry into any custodial death, and inform relatives of the deceased who have a right to attend such inquiries,2 and that officers must take all “reasonable steps to secure…identification” of unidentified bodies.3 Khalra and Dhillon had found evidence of appalling police excesses." http://www.witness84.com/cremation/
http://www.dailynews365.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/33350394ji4.jpg


"When the police do not obey the law. Then there is no law."

chandu_69
07 October 2009, 03:22 AM
I don't consider your queries as being disrespectful in any way.

I thought you didnt like the tone of my post from what you said before..


And the truth is I already agree with most of your positions..

Good,

Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?


And the reason for my belief is my experience with Khalistanis.....

we will discuss about khalistan and K.p.s. Gill and his rein on some other day.

I beleive there are no parallels to be drawn.Sikhism does'nt say that non-sikhs get tortured in hell for eternity, also there is no inbuilt hatred in Sikhism against other faiths.

Harjas Kaur
07 October 2009, 05:11 AM
I thought you didnt like the tone of my post from what you said before..
What did I say before?


Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?

Social justice. Institutional reforms. Defense of human rights and human dignity. Giving dasvandh to those communities which really need it. When society addresses these kinds of internal problems, then you won't have mass uprisings of conversions among the Dalits and the tribals.

Even Ambedkar Ji converted to Buddhism. Why?

A Scene from Ambedkar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C0y3H6Ra0


Bant Singh can still sing
Bant Singh is a revolutionary singer in Punjab, India, whose 2 years old daughter was raped by upper caste men. When he sought justice, they cut of his limbs. But he can still sing, and in this video letter he expresses no self-pity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxSdru59NVs

When there is an open wound it is prone to infection.


we will discuss about khalistan and K.p.s. Gill and his rein on some other day.
No we won't, because there's nothing to discuss. Oppression is the cause of militancy and the rejection of Indian National Unity and Hindu religion in aggrieved populations. Greater oppression against converts or militant's families cannot possibly be a solution.

Social justice, education, promotion of national unity and human dignity. That is the solution. Society has to stop outcasting people and it won't have "outcasts, militants, and converts" who raise rifles and slogans against it and who join hands with it's enemies.


"The defeat of the Sikh separatists and the subsequent return to prosperity in Punjab, with a population of more than 20 million, earned Mr. Gill the sobriquet of ''super cop'' from India's popular press. But human-rights organizations here and abroad, as well as families of slain Sikh militants, have continued to demand action against Mr. Gill for his involvement in a well-chronicled campaign of police brutality that is said to have included the torture and summary killing of hundreds, and possibly thousands, of Sikh separatists and members of their families.


Because the Indian Government is considered unlikely to heed the demands for action against Mr. Gill for his actions during the insurgency, which posed one of the most serious threats to India's stability since independence nearly 50 years ago, his conviction under a section of the criminal code for ''outraging the modesty'' of the woman at the party has been welcomed by some in Punjab as a small measure of justice." http://www.nytimes.com/1996/08/12/world/ex-policeman-s-jail-term-hailed-by-women-in-india.html
http://www.searchsikhism.com/images/khalra/File0043.jpg
From the Khalra collection



KPS Gill is hated among Sikhs as an indiscriminate mass murderer. I'm sorry you didn't know that. He has done more to damage Hindu-Sikh relations than Indira Gandhi, if that be possible.

I beleive there are no parallels to be drawn.Sikhism does'nt say that non-sikhs get tortured in hell for eternity, also there is no inbuilt hatred in Sikhism against other faiths.
Why does it bother you so much what foolish people believe? You think a hell could be any worse then a jail in Punjab during the militancy days?

http://www.khalistan.net/images/TortureAvtarBody_000.jpg

There is justice in the universe. And there are hellish realms equating to the hellish states of consciousness extremely disturbed and evil people find themselves when they leave the body which are products of their own minds. Perhaps the belief in eternity of these states has to do with the timelessness of other dimensions.

The parallel I sought to evoke was not one of beliefs in the afterlife, but to precipitant causes in the present life.

Until society can honestly address the grievances, aggrieved groups will continue to attract the neferious exploitation of India's enemies.


Objective criticism make people aware and the chances of people falling prey to these hatefull ideologies will considerably reduce.
This is blaming the wrong things and will come to a faulty conclusion. There are a lot of hateful things which are the causes besides "ideologies." Do you think desperately poor people will turn down offers of money, education, medical clinics, housing, and visas? Do you think illiterate families really care about some definition of hell when their son gets a promise of admission to a Christian medical school?


It might be wise to do what Jewish communities have done and prepare information for communities to use to counter missionary propaganda. But you don't have to demonize their religion to do it. Let their actions speak for themselves. You don't have to speak against religion the way they speak against religion.

And one last thought. How many Hindu kids actually know that much about their own religion? If they don't know much, they can't defend anything.

chandu_69
07 October 2009, 06:21 AM
What did I say before?

May be i have misread your post 78 : This is why I pointed out, respectfully to you,


Social justice. Institutional reforms. Defense of human rights and human dignity. Giving dasvandh to those communities which really need it. When society addresses these kinds of internal problems, then you won't have mass uprisings of conversions among the Dalits and the tribals.

I have no problem with hindus converting to other religions as long as it is their choice.Many hindus including me would not bother much about such conversions.


Even Ambedkar Ji converted to Buddhism. Why?


I respect Ambedkar or for that matter anybody's right to convert.Hinduism doesnt recommend killing apostates.


Social justice. Institutional reforms. Defense of human rights and human dignity. Giving dasvandh to those communities which really need it. When society addresses these kinds of internal problems,

That is good and needs to be done whether there are missionaries are not.

It is laughable that these christians talk about castesim when their bible speaks about owning slaves.

Greater oppression against converts or militant's families cannot possibly be a solution.


I dont think anybody recommended any such measure on this forum


This thread is about "Onslaught of Adharmic Religions"

Shall we stay focussed.

chandu_69
07 October 2009, 06:38 AM
Getting to the actual subject:


Why does it bother you so much what foolish people believe?

I have quoted Pope and vatican's official statements regarding their contempt for other religions.Here is the link to my post(http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=33378&postcount=81).

It bothers me because these missionaries spread lies about hinduism(and sikh religion, btw) ainstill hatred against hinduism and make enemies to the society in general.



It might be wise to do what Jewish communities have done and prepare information for communities to use to counter missionary propaganda

yes, Counter the propoganda.After all the distractions we got to some sort of actionable discussions.


But you don't have to demonize their religion to do it. Let their actions speak for themselves. You don't have to speak against religion the way they speak against religion.

Why not?.if the teachings are demonic let that be exposed.

speak in the language which the attacker understands.







How many Hindu kids actually know that much about their own religion? If they don't know much, they can't defend anything.

You hit the nail on the head.Ignorance is a big problem.

chandu_69
07 October 2009, 06:58 AM
Shian raised the issue of propoganda by missionaries in the thread http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4331

I briefly touched upon the subject of counter propoganda.

Kaurji, pls go through the thread.

Harjas Kaur
07 October 2009, 03:05 PM
I have no problem with hindus converting to other religions as long as it is their choice.Many hindus including me would not bother much about such conversions.

Quote:
Even Ambedkar Ji converted to Buddhism. Why?

I respect Ambedkar or for that matter anybody's right to convert.Hinduism doesnt recommend killing apostates.

This point was not made to illustrate the right of people to convert but to explore the causes for why people convert. As you had asked:


Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?

So regardless of whether you respect him, why did Ambedkar convert? You did not answer the painful internal problem of social injustice. And instead simply made a cross comparison that Hindu's don't recommend killing apostates. And this is a weak answer, because modernly no Christian sects do either. And this is what I'm talking about this line of argument is creating a "straw man fallacy"
"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented." www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

So to prove these points the argument is relying on distortions of modern-day Christian teaching. And believe me, I'm no Christian apologist. It's just that the distortions are not factual. And hence the entire thesis becomes unbelievable. And it is clearly a propaganda piece designed to elicit agitation in an audience.

And to what purpose? Against all Christians in general?

Because the line of argumentation strikes at their fundamental beliefs to invalidate their scriptures and does not directly address the missionary factor which has long been manipulated by colonial governments as a point of "interpretation." But rather than looking at these elements, your Swami Devananda Ji is attacking Hindu's who dare to interpret Christian scriptures in a non-hostile way as being "ignorant."

So there is already an overlooked factor here. The factor of deliberate mis-interpretation by foreign colonial powers to use religion as a weapon of cultural suppression and subjugation.

And this is entirely independent from Christian religious teachings.
It bothers me because these missionaries spread lies about hinduism(and sikh religion, btw) ainstill hatred against hinduism and make enemies to the society in general.
And my point was, in analyzing causes for mass conversions we have to look deeply at hatred instilled against the powers that be, which includes the central government of India as well as the authority of Hindu religion as being blamed by the disenfranchised, the discriminated, the neglected and the poor.

So these are social causes of malcontent that have nothing to do with issues like "freedom to convert" or "malicious bad intent of foreign governments funding missionaries" or even "ignorance in Christian doctrine."
yes, Counter the propoganda.After all the distractions we got to some sort of actionable discussions.
If you think analyzing the corruption and brutality of the Indian government itself or the alienation of entire groups within it's population are not a prime factor in the conversion scenario, and are only some unrelated "distraction" then it's further proof that this thesis is biased to create scapegoats of blame rather than addressing actual underlying causes.


Quote:
But you don't have to demonize their religion to do it. Let their actions speak for themselves. You don't have to speak against religion the way they speak against religion.
Why not?.if the teachings are demonic let that be exposed.
speak in the language which the attacker understands.

Why are you not speaking against the demonic injustices and corruptions which allowed an environment for the missionaries to thrive in the first place? How can it only be someone else's "demons" yet we fail to look at our own?

If you want to attack the attacker then speak to social justice and need for reform. They do! And that's why they're winning.



Quote:
Social justice. Institutional reforms. Defense of human rights and human dignity. Giving dasvandh to those communities which really need it. When society addresses these kinds of internal problems,
That is good and needs to be done whether there are missionaries are not.

It is laughable that these christians talk about castesim when their bible speaks about owning slaves.

It's not laughable. It's pathetically sad. But their scriptures were written 2 thousand years ago, and I respect that Western society has itself evolved beautifully out of the slave owning era and so have their modern religious teachings. So again this is just a straw man which has nothing to do with anything.

The problem of casteism is directly related to the racist colonialism of British as well as the hatred of Hinduism of the Mughal dynasties. Casteism in it's current form is an oppression fundamentally opposed to the original intent of the Vedas, Shastras and Puranas. So it is not "Hindu" teaching. It is reinterpretation of Hindu teaching by corrupted powers. Education will clearly point this out without need to resort to unbelievable counter assertions such as "Christianity teaches you can own slaves." When everybody knows it doesn't. Maybe 2 thousand years ago. Maybe 250 years ago. But not today. When the missionaries are attacking casteism, they are attacking injustices of today. That is why they are listened to. Dharmic people should also be loudly addressing the social injustices of casteism so it is clear we aren't approving or tolerant of it. Our silence to speak on behalf of the oppressed is why they are finding another voice to speak on their behalf. So it is our failing. And it is our responsibility to make an outreach to the disenfranchised Hindu people worldwide and those most especially neglected and vulnerable to foreign exploitation.


if the teachings are demonic let that be exposed.
speak in the language which the attacker understands.

I wanted to go back to this veer ji. Do you know how Guru Gobind Singh Ji spoke to Aurangzeb?

He told the chilling clear truth in love.

He did not insult. He did not degrade. He did not malign the Muslim religion. He chastised Aurangzeb for cruelty and misconduct as going against the precepts of his own religion. Read the Zafarnama sometime.

And do you know what was the result? Aurangzeb repented. He repented the slaughter of the Guru's family and children.
"The letter reads like a reprimand by a superior personality on a higher plane to a cruel and distorted inhuman being on a lower and pitiful plane. Guru Ji in the 111 verses of this notice rebukes Aurangzeb (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Aurangzeb) for his weaknesses as a human being and for excesses as a leader. Guru Ji confirms his confidence and his unflinching faith in the Almighty (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/God) even after suffering extreme personal loss...


Though parts of the letter are an indictment of Aurangzebparts of the letter are like one from an older wiser veer (brave or valiant brother) more in touch with the part of the jyot of God in his heart, who though terribly wronged on one plane, is asking his lost veer, who he sees as having lost touch with the promise of his own religion and its Holy Koran, to return to the fold of brotherly love and make things right between them again. Amazingly 6 verses actually praise Aurangzeb (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Aurangzeb)...


Aurangzeb's realisation
The Emperors peace of mind had been shaken, he wrote another letter to his sons in which he states "I do not know who I am, where I am, where I am to go and what will happen to a sinful person like me. Many like me have passed away wasting their lives. Allah was in my heart but my blind eyes failed to see him. I do not know how I will be received in Allah's court. I do not have any hope for my future, I have committed many sins and do not know what punishments will be awarded to me in return".


The Zafarnama had a demoralising effect on Emperor Aurangzeb who saw his end looming over the horizon and his future appeared very bleak. He saw Guru Gobind Singh Ji as his only hope who could show him the right and truthful path, as hinted by Guru ji in his epistle. Although he had greatly wronged the Guru he knew him to be a man of God and wanted to meet with the Guru personally to seek redemption." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Zafarnama

Dharma is not about falling from a higher plane into a lower one to behave just like someone on a lower plane. Dharma is about rising. It is the spiritual responsibility to lift oneself up and to be an uplifting example for others. Dharma is about lifting others up through right actions, right speech, right intention, right goals.
Greater oppression against converts or militant's families cannot possibly be a solution.

I dont think anybody recommended any such measure on this forum


This thread is about "Onslaught of Adharmic Religions"
Shall we stay focussed.

When you praised KPS Gill's results against the militancy, you also praised his methods. The focus is crystal clear.

We should not sink to the level of Adharma to achieve political success or we are no different then Aurangzeb.

And moreover, we need to evaluate and properly address the root causes behind why the Christian missionaries are gaining a foothold among disenfranchised populations. If we work toward social justice and institutional reform as a goal, we have the power to make Dharma shine bright as more than empty words and false promises.

And that means not praising or ignoring evil at work in our own society. At least we would have their respect if we could acknowledge wrongdoing for what it is and stop justifying perpetrators all the time.

Would Ambedkar Ji have ever left Hindu religion if he felt he could work within the existing social structures to initiate powerful reforms for social justice? He left Hinduism ashamed that the entrenched political and social corruptions prevented reform.

They are still preventing reform.

THIS is what we need to address to stop the onslaught of adharmic philosophies, religions and movements. No one would listen to those other voices if only we could live Dharmically and represent in our society what Dharma really means.


ਕਮਾਲਿ ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਕਾਯਮ ਕਰੀਮ ॥ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੋ ਰਾਜ਼ਿਕ ਰਿਹਾਕੁਨ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥
KAMAAL-E KARAAMAT QAA-YEM KAREEM, RAZA BAKSH RAZAQ RAHAAQ-O RAHIM (1)
Waheguru is perfection personified. He is eternal and through His miracles He shows His presence. He is generous in granting us His bounties. He is compassionate and merciful.

ਅਮਾਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿੰਦਹ ਓ ਦਸਤਗੀਰ ॥ ਖ਼ਤਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਰੋਜ਼ੀ ਦਿਹੋ ਦਿਲ ਪਜ਼ੀਰ ॥੨॥
AMAAN BAKSH BAKSHINDEH-O DASTGIR, KHATAA BAKSH ROZI DEH-O DILPAZIR (2)
He grants us the peace and security and is always merciful in forgiving us for our sins. He holds our hand and guides us (in this world). He is provider of our sustenance and charms everyone.

~From the Zafarnama sent by Sacha Patshah Guru Gobind Singh Ji to Emperor Aurangzeb
Now there is no pacifism here. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was willling to fight to the death against injustice. But He Himself was never unjust and never let slip an opportunity to promote peace, reconciliation and understanding. He was ever Guru. The light that shines in darkness.

This is Dharma. This should be our platform and perspective, not demonizing or outrageously distorting other faiths to make them hated. Point out wrong actions. Confront and stop wrong-doing. But don't become the hateful enemy.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 02:00 AM
When you praised KPS Gill's results against the militancy, you also praised his methods. The focus is crystal clear.

I think this thread was derailed to such an extent that it is no longer possible to stay focussed.I mentioned in passing, Thanks to gill the days of Khalistan were gone.This was in response to your mention of the subject of khalistan.

It is entirely unrelated to the subject at hand.

I asked
Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?

To which you responded

By focussing on casteism.The caste thing is more complex than you think.There were many discussions on this subject here.

I have already mentioned caste is not the tool which christian missionaries use nowadays.

The Mainstay of the christian missionaries tactics is fraud.it is this fraud that has to be exposed.

It appears you cannot come out of the fixation with Punjab politics and trying to view the problem with that perspective in mind.

In this thread I would only discuss matters relating to missionary activities.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 02:10 AM
Shian explained in the thread(http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4331)

About the fraudelent activities of christian missionaries:

Shian's post:

i have 4 times get bad experience with christians

1. In my home shrine, my chritian friends has come to my house and they want see my shrine, when i go for fw minutes and then come back i have know one of them is pray in the name of Jesus in front of Earth Teritorial Gods murtis, and he pray to do eviction to my Gods.

2. When i walk out from temple, i see many young christian peoples (have cruch in near of temple) give temple the pamflet of jesus and hell. They moving very faster, i not sure from which cruch they are.

3. In the night i see televison, and have chritsian miracle story, have 2 peoples they sick and cannot good, and in the tv can see they do old religion pray go to Hindu temple (they shoot and take a action give offering in front of temple), they said old gods cannot cure them, after they become christian they become health etc.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 02:13 AM
Here is my Brief response how to tackle this fraud:

I have some practical suggestions to people like you.

You can ask some questions to those evangelical christians.Asking these questions need fair amount of knowledge about bible and the main stream Christian clergy.

1) If praying to Jesus with faith can cure somebody of his ailment why does the Pope rely on Modern medicine instead of Mass Prayers?

2)Ask them why Majority of Europeans rejected Jesus as savior

3)If they persist with their theory That Only Jesus can save you; which, by the way is Mainstream Christian Position ask them To whom Jesus was Praying/asking

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Ref:http://bible.cc/matthew/27-46.htm

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Ask them, How Jesus can save you when his trusted father(Yahweh, the old testament god) has forsaken him.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 02:14 AM
Also you can ask them to prove the Jesus cures dogma in a scientific setting of randi.org.

James randi exposed many Fradulent missionary "faith healers" in USA.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 02:19 AM
It is laughable that these christians talk about castesim when their bible speaks about owning slaves.


It's not laughable. It's pathetically sad. But their scriptures were written 2 thousand years ago, and I respect that Western society has itself evolved beautifully out of the slave owning eraWestern society came out of Slave owning practices of Bible after rejecting christianity.Jesus didnt abolish Slavery


and so have their modern religious teachings. So again this is just a straw man which has nothing to do with anything.

It has everything to do with their Faith.One can easily tell to their Face it is foolish to think God tells you to own Slaves and tell them progress in western civilization became possible after christianity was rejected.

The so called Modern christian teachings were a result of Free thinking people who rejected christianity.

But, the original Bible teachings are followed in places like Assam and kerala(In India).

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 02:23 AM
Kaurji asked


And to what purpose? Against all Christians in general?

The purpose is to show the Fradulent missionaries and gullible indians the real face of christianity


Because the line of argumentation strikes at their fundamental beliefs to invalidate their scriptures

exactly.why not strike at their fundamental beleifs when these missionaries do the same in a fradulent manner by way of FAITH healing missions.

In shian's words (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=30702&postcount=1)

, and in the tv can see they do old religion pray go to Hindu temple (they shoot and take a action give offering in front of temple), they said old gods cannot cure them, after they become christian they become health etc.

Harjas Kaur
08 October 2009, 06:25 PM
When you praised KPS Gill's results against the militancy, you also praised his methods. The focus is crystal clear.
I think this thread was derailed to such an extent that it is no longer possible to stay focussed.I mentioned in passing, Thanks to gill the days of Khalistan were gone.This was in response to your mention of the subject of khalistan.

It is entirely unrelated to the subject at hand.

I asked
Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?

To which you responded

By focussing on casteism.The caste thing is more complex than you think.There were many discussions on this subject here.

I have already mentioned caste is not the tool which christian missionaries use nowadays.

The Mainstay of the christian missionaries tactics is fraud.it is this fraud that has to be exposed.

I am not focusing on casteism. Casteism is one of the elements involved in disenfranchised populations prone to missionary infiltration. Or are you saying this is not the case and oversimplifying to allege that it is a battle between whose scriptures are fake or not?

This is what I actually said as elements where to look for solutions to the problem of missionaries, Naxals, militants or Islamic jihadis in India because ALL those problems are interrelated:

Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?


Social justice. Institutional reforms. Defense of human rights and human dignity. Giving dasvandh to those communities which really need it. When society addresses these kinds of internal problems, then you won't have mass uprisings of conversions among the Dalits and the tribals.

So there is already an overlooked factor here. The factor of deliberate mis-interpretation by foreign colonial powers to use religion as a weapon of cultural suppression and subjugation. And this is entirely independent from Christian religious teachings.

And my point was, in analyzing causes for mass conversions we have to look deeply at hatred instilled against the powers that be, which includes the central government of India as well as the authority of Hindu religion as being blamed by the disenfranchised, the discriminated, the neglected and the poor.

This isn't a focus only on casteism, but on endemic poverty, corruption in government and police forces and in unjust mis-applications of the law. Until these profound issues are appropriately addressed there will be a huge problem with social reactionary rejections of the national interest. So the biggest factor I expressed was not caste per se but a conglomerate of social problems which are more accurately termed:

Alienation.



It isn't hard to have outreach to already alienated subgroups within a population. In fact, that's playing into the enemies hands. So as a society, far more effective than handing out counter-missionary flyers, which are a good idea. And far more effective than engaging ding-a-lings in debate, although sometimes that does expose fraud and idiocy.

We would all do well to specifically address the causes of social alienation and work at drawing people closer together in the national interest. This is what they do! Why aren't we doing it?

My parallels were on point. Let me ask you a question. Since the political upheavals in the Punjab over the last 25 years, how many Hindu groups have made any kind of welcoming outreach to Sikhs?

And I will add, only one exception: RSS, for good or for bad.

In the US, where I live, easily 90% of the Gurdwaras here are dominated by Khalistani politics. Most of the Sikh kids are taught to fear and hate Hindus. They've never been to a mandir. They don't even have the basic knowledge of what Hindu religion teaches. You have an entire generation completely alienated from Hindu Dharma.

If we ignore them, then a portion of that population is going to aid Pakistani militants against the Indian state and in order to destroy Hindu religion.


The Christian missionaries work is really no different. But the same dynamics apply. How will you reach those groups most vulnerable to them? You will reach them by overcoming the alienation and making the efforts to achieve the kinds of social justice which address the grievances.

I can assure you, if you went with the same proposed tactics of distributing literature, having debates, criticizing the Khalistanis, the Naxals, the Tamil Tigers, the Protestants, the Catholics, the Muslims, the whatever...

you will not reach them. Because you haven't touched what hurts them.

If hungry people need food, they will listen to the man bringing them food. If aggrieved people feel unjustly treated, they will listen to the man bringing them justice in the form of a gun.

So this is my recommendation:

Instead of focusing on what is wrong with all the other religions, movements, etc. Why not focus on what is right and just in sanatana Dharma? If missionaries go out and get the kids together and give them a sense of belonging, then so should we. Give them an education in how beautiful they are and in how great they can be.

And I assure you, no hateful dogma will ever find its root.

Harjas Kaur
08 October 2009, 06:43 PM
Also you can ask them to prove the Jesus cures dogma in a scientific setting of randi.org.


James randi exposed many Fradulent missionary "faith healers" in USA.Veer ji, Hindu's will find no ally in atheists, skeptics, and James Randi. They hate our religion more than Christianity. This is not a wise approach. It leads people towards scientism, an agnosticism which disbelieves in everything, mocks everything.

I agree with you that criminal types, missionaries and irresponsible government intelligences services with psychological manipulation use fraudulent tactics. But miracles are real. They occur in all religions.

All this will do is influence a generation of Hindu youngsters to disbelieve in the supernatural, and like the West believe only in the arrogance of man-made science. That same arrogance which has made cannibals out of cows, created insane slaughter-houses and given the world epidemic of prion brain diseases.

Scientism:

It is used to criticize a totalizing view of science as if it were capable of describing all reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality) and knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge), or as if it were the only true way to acquire knowledge about reality and the nature of things;

Harjas Kaur
08 October 2009, 06:59 PM
Western society came out of Slave owning practices of Bible after rejecting christianity.Jesus didnt abolish SlaveryVeer ji, did any of the Vishnu avatars abolish slavery either? Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji abolish slavery?

I'm trying to point out to you this line of reasoning won't go anywhere. Western society did not reject Christianity. Neither did "science" with it's biological race supremacy theories overcome slavery. Slavery was how the West grew rich. And you are overlooking a powerful history, at least in the United States, where Christian Churches actively worked to abolish slavery.

I'm not your opponent. But this approach of half-truths and faulty conclusions cannot succeed. Abolitionist churches are one of the reasons the Black American population is overwhelmingly Christian.

The truth is as Deepak Chopra has said. There are 3 forms of Jesus. An original Jewish rabbi bearing no resemblance to the modern God-man. And institutionalized God-man mythologized into a religion. And an actual Divine Jyot which speaks to all men through all ages and in all religions urging them to higher truth.


Be careful where you tread or you will trample the Divine Jyot in your condemnation of the fraudulent.

I think anything with name of Hindu trampling the precious beliefs of others in an effort to stop fanatical animosity is only creating more of the same animosity and disrespect of religion which will boomerang and worsen the situation. You do not gain respect by disrespecting.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 10:06 PM
Nmaste Kaur ji,

Casteism is one of the elements involved in disenfranchised populations prone to missionary infiltration.

That is very obvious you dont have to repeat it several times.As i said before there is no contrary opinion that disdvantaged sections have to be supported whether they are prone to missionaries or not.


We would all do well to specifically address the causes of social alienation and work at drawing people closer together in the national interest. This is what they do! Why aren't we doing it?

It is already being done and scale is being increased day by day.



Coming to the Subject of the thread



are you saying this is not the case and oversimplifying to allege that it is a battle between whose scriptures are fake or not?

I never bothered to read the Abrahamic scriptures till i saw with my own eyes the evils committed by these fradulent missionaries and jihadis.

Now, it is these fellows who made it a battle and there is no other way except to call their bluff.As i said before HINDIUSM teaches there could be many ways to god and this was reflected in tolerance of Faiths foreign to Bharath.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 10:38 PM
Veer ji,

What is this veerji thing?.My id is chandu and my real name is Chandra sekhar.


did any of the Vishnu avatars abolish slavery either?

When there was no scriptural recommendation for slavery in any of the authentic hindu scriptures where was the need to Annul/ Ban it?.

Now coming to the Bible

Slavery slave trading are explicitly recommended.

One example (of the several) from BIBLE(OT):

Leviticus 25:44-46

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

BIBLE: NT(During and After Jesus)

Ephesians 6:5 NLT Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
imothy 6:1-2 NLT Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.






I'm trying to point out to you this line of reasoning won't go anywhere.


I didnt understand a bit of what you are trying to say.



Western society did not reject Christianity.


Probably you havent read much about European renaissance.



Slavery was how the West grew rich.


And the Muslim Arabs who made the bulk of slave Supplies with Sound Scriptural backing .



And you are overlooking a powerful history, at least in the United States, where Christian Churches actively worked to abolish slavery.


Ofcourse because of some good people the western societies abolished slavery even though the BIBLE recommends it.


I'm not your opponent. But this approach of half-truths and faulty conclusions cannot succeed

Point out the half truths with evidences, otherwise it will be just your word against Mine.


Abolitionist churches are one of the reasons the Black American population is overwhelmingly Christian.

They never had other options and being in the church was certainly lucrative for them.

But American christianity is now under attack from wealthy arabs who are converting blacks as if there is no tomorrow.

Europe rejected religion in general longtime ago and in England christianity is as good as officially dead.

So, for these Evangelists india is major target for HARVESTING SOULS.


I think anything with name of Hindu trampling the precious beliefs of others in an effort to stop fanatical animosity is only creating more of the same animosity

I already replied to this point at post 95

Respect is a two way street.I dont think i am capable of respecting any faith that demeans my Own Faith on a consistent basis.

There is the example Jews who have successfully pooh poohed Christian beleifs on jesus's Virgin birth and stopped these evangelists from gobbling up their faith.

chandu_69
08 October 2009, 10:58 PM
I missed this


Christianity really has nothing to do with Judaism

If You mean the Old testament(which you said is barbaric) ?

Sorry to tell you jesus himself Attested to Old testament:

Matthew 5:17-19
17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

More of Jesus's Attesting to Old testament barbarity:


Matthew 15:4 (English-NIV)--For God said, `Honor your father and mother' and `Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' http://www.christianparty.net/bullet2.gif Mark 7:10 (English-NIV)--For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother,' and, `Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
The actual Old Testament reference:
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Harjas Kaur
09 October 2009, 06:51 AM
Veer ji,
What is this veerji thing?.My id is chandu and my real name is Chandra sekhar.Lol. Veer means brother. Ji is to denote "respected brother."



Christianity really has nothing to do with Judaism
If You mean the Old testament(which you said is barbaric) ?
Sorry to tell you jesus himself Attested to Old testament: Jio, the Jesus of the "New testament" was a Jewish rabbi. But Christianity is largely based on the Pauline epistles. These scriptures of the new testament are entirely written in Greek. As the apostle Paul was a Greek Jew. And the "old testament" was written in Aramaic, except for the Torah part which is written in Hebrew.

Now, all these scriptures are written thousands of years apart. They were bunched together by the sect of Christians. The Jews have never accepted any of this. So respectfully I tried to make a distinction, out of my respect for Judaism. It is an insult to Jews that their sacred scriptures are even called "old testament" because that is a Christian concept, that Jewish teachings were old promises, but they are inheritors of new promises and so have a greater message.

Moreover, Christianity is a synthesis of Judaism and ancient Greek and Roman pagan religions which included Egyptian, and Zorastrian mystery cults. So to a Jew who believes "Shema Y'Israel Adonai Eloheinu" Hear O Israel, the Lord Our God, the Lord is One, a doctrine like Jesus the God-man or a Christian Trinity is false and offensive to their teaching.

So it doesn't matter if Jesus "referred" to the Jewish scriptures (old testament) or not. Christianity really has nothing to do with Judaism, except they have kept the scriptures in their Bible. Christians interpret it based on their own ideas.

How are they alike as religions?

So when your debate is based on proving Jesus mentioned the Old Testament, any Jewish listener stops listening at that point. Also, you talk a lot about the authority of the Catholic Pope. But different sects of Christianity totally reject Catholic teaching and do not care what the Pope says.

So this is what I mean by your getting things all mixed up as one thing. I'm pointing out things for you to look at. To strengthen your arguments and better define them. I have more expertise in this area then you realize. I've been a counter-missionary for years. I'm very familiar with what they teach good and bad, because my interest for years has been religious studies. So think of what I'm saying like you would from a teacher. And try not to debate against me like your enemy.

Inaccuracy and wrong arguments are simply not convincing to your intended audience. And I'm afraid if you tried to debate with some of these concepts mixed up you will weaken your intended goal, which is to defend against assaults on Hindu Dharma and teaching. You do realize some of these missionary debaters have doctoral degree's.

FYI the Jews are also alarmed by the Christian missionaries and have a large counter-missionary program with information. Why would they be alarmed at Christian missionaries if their religions were related and part of the same thing?

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

did any of the Vishnu avatars abolish slavery either?

When there was no scriptural recommendation for slavery in any of the authentic hindu scriptures where was the need to Annul/ Ban it?.I'm not your enemy. I'm not a Christian. I'm not offended by your debates. But I'm trying to point out that modernly, Christianity doesn't support slavery. Arguing the point is not going to make Christian converts renounce their faith. So it's something perhaps to note in a pamphlet but not expend a lot of energy on.

If the Vishnu avatars did not abolish slavery in the world, that is because this world is sansaar, ocean of suffering. And in this realm people work through their karmas. So, while not explicitly either sanctioning or condemning reprehensible acts like slavery or specific sins, the avtaara pointed out the path for humankind to elevate spiritually and get away from the ocean of suffering.

So the point is, there is an element of Jesus where he is acting as an avtaar to the Mlecchas. Yes, it's a very distorted picture, but certain elements are there. Any Christian will tell you there are no words of Jesus which ever supported slavery. And in the new testament the teachings are only to be obedient to Masters not anything about how good it is to keep slavery system. None of these people were in political positions of any authority to change the world as it was.

I'm simply informing you that you will not be persuasive following this line of attack if your goal is for them to hear you. Because they will stop listening when they know you don't know their teachings.

In a strange way, I sympathize with you. Because I am totally ostracized for defending Hinduism against the radical Tat Khalsas and pro-Khalistanis. They distort and demonize Hindu religion in the exact same ways. And it is with a weird sense of deja vu that I'm having this kind of discussion with you now. But the Khalistanis take the most distorted interpretation possible to make Hindu religion look ridiculous, unscientific, and evil.

So it is with a loving heart that I ask you not to do that with Christian scriptures. No good will come of it. I myself do not believe in Christian teaching. I'm familiar with the distortions of the missionaries. But seriously we have all got to stop demonizing each other.

This is just not the right path. It is against Dharma. The Divine is Sat! And how can we embrace the reality of Sat if our utterances distort the truth of something because politically we want it to look as bad as possible?

The truth is still the truth no matter what we say. And people who know that truth will only think we are liars. How can we convince them of our sincerity, our Dharma, our spiritual maturity if we lower ourselves to such a level?

One thing you should be aware of in counter-missionary tactics. Is one of the great successes of the Muslims. Their best debaters, like Sheikh Dedat, was one of the most honest and most accurate people. When he quoted or cited Christian teaching, he never insulted it down with false assumptions or inaccurate interpretations. He was spot on, and it won him many converts among the Christians, because they could see he told the truth about their own scriptures.

If you would take this path, at least become a skilled debater of intergrity and be successful at what you do. But my belief is it doesn't really matter what people believe. To the Christians and Muslims, belief matters greatly, so they expend tremendous time on it.

Honest to goodness, just love people. Just be good to people. Just be fair to people. You will have greater success.



I'm trying to point out to you this line of reasoning won't go anywhere.
I didnt understand a bit of what you are trying to say.
All these religionists are smarter than you think. They aren't going to buy into your attacks on what they believe if they are based on exaggerations, distortions and half-truths. It simply isn't convincing. The whole point of a debate is to convince someone of a higher truth.

To Jews, Christianity is a foreign religion which has never been accepted.

To Protestants, Catholic Christians and their Pope are sometimes thought of as an evil misrepresentation of "true Christianity."

If you keep mixing things up between sects and religions like this, you will come across as humorous to them and not even challenging. So these lines of reasoning won't go anywhere, won't convince anybody. You have to convince them from deep knowledge. Knowledge which is true and resonates in their consciences.



Western society did not reject Christianity.
Probably you havent read much about European renaissance.

Western society is overwhelmingly Christian in religion. Their is an underlying agnostic scientific political belief system which is the philosophy behind the current "separation of Church and State" political doctrine. But if you think that Western nations do not support foreign missionary efforts due to BOTH, then you are mistaken about modern political policy.

If Western society were rejecting of Christianity, how could the Christian missionaries have so much financial, social, and political support?

Western Society separated Religion from Politics, well sort of. Perhaps in intention. The reality is politics is highly manipulated by religious vote blocs. So in a sense, especially in America, religion shapes, defines and runs politics.



And you are overlooking a powerful history, at least in the United States, where Christian Churches actively worked to abolish slavery.
Ofcourse because of some good people the western societies abolished slavery even though the BIBLE recommends it.I'm not interested in arguing the point. Go on teaching whatever makes you happy. Just don't be surprised if you're ineffective in convincing people. The Bible doesn't recommend slavery. In the ancient "Old testament" scriptures which are like 3-4 thousand years old, when the Jews were fighting wars of survival there were passages like that. No sect or Church of Christianity in the world teaches that, so it is like a paper ball fired out of a canon...weak.

Anyways, you're absolutely right when you say missionaries distort scriptures like that for colonial purpose in countries like India. But that is a political interpretation which the average Christian groups do not use and would argue as not being their teaching. So it depends on your audience how you would use it I guess.



They never had other options and being in the church was certainly lucrative for them.

But American christianity is now under attack from wealthy arabs who are converting blacks as if there is no tomorrow.

Europe rejected religion in general longtime ago and in England christianity is as good as officially dead.

So, for these Evangelists india is major target for HARVESTING SOULS. Black Muslim organization has no relationship to Arab Muslims. In fact after Malcolm X returned from Hajj he was murdered by Louis Farrakhan at order of their Prophet Elijah Mohammed. They teach their own thing. Overwhelming majority of black Americans are Christian and leaders of major Christian denominations. Entire black style of worship is now predominant in the United States. In America there are lots of options. I even see black Americans showing up for pujas and things. This isn't 100 years ago.

Evangelists may use the words "harvesting souls" but we all know they are harvesting vote blocs to manipulate India's foreign policy and breed dependence on the West. By becoming "Christians" they become financially dependent on their sponsors and begin to support political views and cultural encroachment favorable to foreign mission sponsors.

Respect is a two way street.I dont think i am capable of respecting any faith that demeans my Own Faith on a consistent basis.

There is the example Jews who have successfully pooh poohed Christian beleifs on jesus's Virgin birth and stopped these evangelists from gobbling up their faith.It is not a "faith" which is disrespecting your faith. It is disrespectful and spiritually ignorant people who are politically attacking the cohesion of another country. The Christian faith is not a living entity capable of disrespecting you. But it is a religion which millions of people in the West cling to for support in times of suffering and no need to tear apart.

You know I got banned off a Sikh forum after having a huge disagreement with several moderators over disrespectful things they were posting about Bhagavan Krishna being "vile" and "pornographic." Now, instead of defending Hindu I am debating one in the exact same way as I debated Sikhs for doing the same thing of disrespecting another religion. There's irony in this.

The Jews didn't "pooh pooh" the point of the virgin birth to stop evangelists. That's the method of the atheistic communists who insult and attack miracle stories of all religions. The Jews defeat the Christian missionaries by showing how Christian teaching is against principles of Jewish teaching and by showing how missionaries LIE about Jewish teaching to fool Jews. They are pointing out the inaccuracies and the lies. They aren't waging a war against supernatural beliefs in general. Although I don't think it's disrespectful of Christian teaching to point out how unlikely the virgin birth story is, it just depends on how it's done. There's a way to debate and win your audience, and there's a hateful way intended to humiliate and insult.

It's up to you what approach to choose.

Be careful of your sources, agnosticism is a two-edged sword which will just as soon dismember the profound and beautiful symbolism of Hindu religion.

~Om Shanti Shanti

atanu
09 October 2009, 07:11 AM
If the Vishnu avatars did not abolish slavery in the world, that is because this world is sansaar, ocean of suffering. And in this realm people work through their karmas. So, while not explicitly either sanctioning or condemning reprehensible acts like slavery or specific sins, the avtaara pointed out the path for humankind to elevate spiritually and get away from the ocean of suffering.
---
This is just not the right path. It is against Dharma. The Divine is Sat! And how can we embrace the reality of Sat if our utterances distort the truth of something because politically we want it to look as bad as possible?

The truth is still the truth no matter what we say. ----

You know I got banned off a Sikh forum after having a huge disagreement with several moderators over disrespectful things they were posting about Bhagavan Krishna being "vile" and "pornographic." Now, instead of defending Hindu I am debating one in the exact same way as I debated Sikhs for doing the same thing of disrespecting another religion.

The Jews didn't "pooh pooh" the point of the virgin birth to stop evangelists. That's the method of the atheistic communists who insult and attack miracle stories of all religions. The Jews defeat the Christian missionaries by showing how Christian teaching is against principles of Jewish teaching and by showing how missionaries LIE about Jewish teaching to fool Jews. They are pointing out the inaccuracies and the lies. They aren't waging a war against supernatural beliefs in general.

Be careful of your sources, agnosticism is a two-edged sword which will just as soon dismember the profound and beautiful symbolism of Hindu religion.


I am perhaps a bit biased in my belief that a lady can only look beyond boundaries to uphold the truth.

A truly beautiful post, for which my regards and respects to Harjas Ji.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
09 October 2009, 09:51 AM
Kaurji, it appears you have no real knowledge neither about mainstream christianity nor their scriptural understanding as evident from your statement


So it doesn't matter if Jesus "referred" to the Jewish scriptures (old testament) or not

Obviously the WORD of JESUS matters to christians more than the words of Harjas Kaur who claims, like some of the Hindus in this forum that they understand christianity better than christians themselfes.

And then Kaurji goes on to say


The Jews defeat the Christian missionaries by showing how Christian teaching is against principles of Jewish teaching and by showing how missionaries LIE about Jewish teaching to fool Jews.

The crux of the Jews argument focus on the Bogus PROPHECY of Messiah born to a virgin which worked effectively against the christians.

Isaiah 7:14 -- Virgin or Not?

http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishviewofjesus/a/jesus_virgin.htm


It is not a "faith" which is disrespecting your faithOfcourse it is the christian Faith that is disrespecting my faith .

I have a feeling that i am banging my head against a wall.It appears that you dont read the The bible quotes or the Vatican statements i povided.


It is disrespectful and spiritually ignorant people who are politically attacking the cohesion of another country

I didnt know that Christians consider Vatcan and Popes as ignorant or disrespectful people :p

Now, it appears your version of christianity has no relation to Biblical scriptures or The mainstream church but your own understanding borne out of your personal interactions with people in the west.

Here is a comparison of various christian denominations beliefs:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/denominations_beliefs.htm

All are unanimous in their Understanding that rejection of Jesus guarantees eternal Hell:

chandu_69
09 October 2009, 10:01 AM
radical Tat Khalsas and pro-Khalistanis. They distort and demonize Hindu religion in the exact same ways

Who cares what these drunkard Bhindranwale clones do or think?

Majority of Sikhs are comfortable with Hinduism and many expatriate sikhs are returning to India.


Christian will tell you there are no words of Jesus which ever supported slavery

They will tell now after the church expressed their monumental shame about slave trading.
Jesus Was at best ambivalent on slaves and at worst perpetuated slavery.

well, why i am having this discussion with you when you have no knowledge on biblical scriptures.


Black Muslim organization has no relationship to Arab Muslims.

That is pretty old news.

I think you are clueless on what is happening around your place.

Take a look at this
http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_356.html

chandu_69
09 October 2009, 10:23 AM
Biblical basis for christian missionary healing frauds:

The missionaries are trying their best to follow Jesus's advice.

Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Since the missionaries cannot do these impossible acts they try to fake them.

chandu_69
09 October 2009, 11:10 AM
One more argument that can be used against the bible thumping fraudsters:

Jesus was sent exclusively for israelites:

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Jesus sent apostles to preach exclusively to jews

Matthew 10:5-6:
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Apostles expanded their mission to include all nations
after Jesus's death:Matthew 28:16-20

Harjas Kaur
09 October 2009, 10:42 PM
Kaurji, it appears you have no real knowledge neither about mainstream christianity nor their scriptural understanding as evident from your statement

Quote:
So it doesn't matter if Jesus "referred" to the Jewish scriptures (old testament) or not
Obviously the WORD of JESUS matters to christians more than the words of Harjas Kaur who claims, like some of the Hindus in this forum that they understand christianity better than christians themselfes.
To a Christian, this is a Christian interpretation. But what did I say?



The Jews have never accepted any of this.

...a doctrine like Jesus the God-man or a Christian Trinity is false and offensive to their teaching.

So it doesn't matter if Jesus "referred" to the Jewish scriptures (old testament) or not. Christianity really has nothing to do with Judaism, except they have kept the scriptures in their Bible. Christians interpret it based on their own ideas. Judaism has never accepted the words of Jesus as authoritative or speaking for their religion so why do you insist that Christianity or "words of Jesus" represents Judaism? Words of Jesus speaks to Christians. Jews are not Christians.


radical Tat Khalsas and pro-Khalistanis. They distort and demonize Hindu religion in the exact same ways

Who cares what these drunkard Bhindranwale clones do or think?

Majority of Sikhs are comfortable with Hinduism and many expatriate sikhs are returning to India.You don't care? I care. With all of my heart I care. The Sikh militancy was worsened by heavy-handed and unjust police actions which united the entire Sikh community against the police, starting with unfortunate stupidity of Indira Gandhi to invade Holy Temple of Sikhs... with tanks and artillery killing a thousand innocent pilgrims.

Majority of Sikhs are terribly uncomfortable with Hindus. Including Akal Takht, highest seat of Sikh religious authority. Several of the highest Jathedars of Akal Takhat have been pro-Khalistanis, including just recently dismissed former Jathedar Vedanti.

Look:

http://worldsikhnews.com/5%20December,%202007/Image/bhindrawaleportrait.jpg
Here is photo of head jathedar of Sikh religion, Joginder Singh Vedanti installing Bhindranwale portrait in the parkama of Harmandir Sahib, after the Sikh Panth declared him a martyr for the faith.

Vedanti Khalistan Speech 2008 - 03:19 - May 6, 2008
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5451893298366811097

There is former Akal Takhat jathedar Ranjit Singh convicted of the murder of Sant Nirankari guru Gurbachana, at the order of Bhindranwale who was awarded the highest temporal seat of Sikh authority while in prison serving the sentence.

And there is current Akal Takht jathedar Giani Gurbachan Singh who together with Dal Khalsa gave the ardas for the morcha against Sikh sects which have dedhari gurus and unite with Hinduism.

This is what Dal Khalsa said:

Khalsa March sends strong warning to pseudo-saints, astray cults and sects: Disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its Guruship will not be tolerated

"The Sikh bodies through a resolution steadfastly maintained that any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its guruship will not be tolerated and will be dealt firmly with full force.

Significantly, the Jathedar of the Akal Takht Gaini Gurbachan Singh flagged off the march. He also performed Ardas in memory of 13 Sikhs. Paying rich tributes to them, he called upon the Sikh masses to unite in their pursuit against these pseudo-saints.

Hundreds of Dal Khalsa activists were carrying placards and large size banners displaying pictures of militant leaders including Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Talwinder Singh Babbar, Wadhawa Singh Babbarthe militant struggle against “gurudom” and to avenge the killings of 13 Sikhs against neo-Nirankaris in early 80’s. They also eulogized the role and contribution of former jathedar Akal Takht Bhai Ranjit Singh“killed” Nirankari chief responsible for Baisakhi massacre...

http://www.dalkhalsa.com/Archives/News/Apr_09/images/14_Apr_09_04.jpgTo ensure unflinching respect for Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh bodies including Damdami Taksal, Akand Kirtani Jatha, Khalsa Action Committee beside Dal Khalsa reiterated that it was a religious and pious duty of every Sikh to defeat the designs of all such sects and cults, which were propagating the concept of "living gurus" contrary to the fundamentals of the Sikh faith.

Striking a discordant chord, the organizers said while the Sikhs are presently engaged in a bitter struggle against the blasphemous actsopposed to all schismatic sects including Radhaswami and Namdhari sects as they were also underscoring the fundamentals of Sikh religion in a silent but systematic manner."
http://www.dalkhalsa.com/Archives/News/Apr_09/14_Mar_09.html
http://worldsikhnews.com/15%20April%202009/Image/KAC%20March%203.jpg
Dal Khalsa protest against sants, deras and gurus who they feel threaten orthodox Sikh identity by uniting with Hindu traditions. I'm sorry you didn't know there was a persecution going on against Sikh-Hindu unity.


Following this call to action and invoking of Babbar Khalsa International terrorist group by carrying photos of it's leaders, the attack in Vienna on the Chamar Ravidasi gurus occurred, killing guru Rama Nand Ji and wounding several people in attendance, including children.

May 25, 2009 Riots after Sikh guru Sant Rama Nand shot dead in Vienna http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6359288.ece

http://img.youtube.com/vi/-KHDTJ3NZI4/0.jpg
Bhog-funeral ceremony of Ravidasi sect Sant Rama Nand Ji

http://www.topnews.in/files/Sant-Ramanand-70670.jpg
Sant Rama Nand

(With english subtitles) - Lord; I dedicate this life to You. = Eh Janam Tumhare Lekhe ~ Beautiful bhajan sung by Sant Rama Nand Ji
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_N04wbOtw
Now this is NOT just a handful of "drunken" extremists. It's a call to action and literal persecution by the highest mainstream Sikh authority and involving participation of militant terror groups including Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force.

Maybe you don't care. But I care. And I have a terrible sense of foreboding as to the outcome of such agitations and the foreign powers manipulating them. It's a huge problem. And it's getting out of control. Sants and gurus should be dying? Today? For what? Khalistan? re-partition? Hatred of Hindus?

So I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm sharing information the best I can. People need to know what the problems are and how huge is the problem, but they should also know the best ways to combat it.

If you give leaflets to these people they will not hear you. If you say how horrible Bhindranwale was, they will not tolerate it. They love him. Because he spoke to their grievances and sense of pain. He spoke to their sense of powerlessness.

Before we get to the stage of regrettable counter-terrorism, there should be outreach. Win these communities over with brotherhood, acceptance, reconciliation, with Dharmic principles, with satsang and family ties. Don't ignore alienated communities who will grab at the most extremist distortions and support murder and bombs. Or who like missionaries support mass conversions, idol-breaking ceremonies and unjust attacks on swamis and Hindu religion.

This is a very serious issue. But insults, half-truths and distortions are powerless to defeat it. Powerless to stop the killings.
As I mentioned before, the one Hindu group which has made positive outreach to the Sikh community is the RSS. And just after the assassination of Ravidas guru in Vienna, leader of Rashtriya Sikh Satsang in Punjab, Rulda Singh was also shot dead.

Saturday, October 10, 2009:

Rulda Singh had received five bullets in his abdomen and forehead. His condition was deteriorating continuously and was put on life support system. Doctors attending to Rulda Singh said from the last few days he had stopped responding to artificial support system. He is survived by his wife, two sons and a daughter.
http://worldsikhnews.com/19%20August%202009/Rulda%20Singh%20of%20RSS%20is%20dead.htm
That is the answer to Sikh-Hindu unity efforts. So it's with a heavy heart as your sister that I share these things with you. Because hate and killings and intolerance are more than I can stomach anymore. There has to be a better way. And if we can't find that better way, then we have to evolve and become that better way.

Otherwise we're nothing more than the same problem. And that is no solution at all.



this is great news....

What was the reason for such a public assassination within the sangat. If (and I stress IF) this assassination was necessary and the diplomatic means had really failed then why could it not be done more tactfully?

When Darshan Das was shot in southall it was when he was parading around the streets when the two Mahaan Gursikhs shot him down.

Sometimes a public show is what people need to be woken up or at least rattled.

May Waheguru look after the Gursikhs that tried to protect their Fathers honour!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php/topic/44554-khalistan-zindabad-force-claims-responsibility-for-vienna-shooting/

Devotee Ravidas
We thank the sikh that shot him for his service
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-f2q3UDhjw&feature=fvwSant Rama Nand Ji and respected Ravidas sangat Jios please forgive us. With folded hands I beg your forgiveness. Rulda Singh Ji and family, I beg your forgiveness. Air India 182 victims and families I beg your forgiveness, especially for callous display of photos of your killers by the Sikh sangat.

You see, Sikh fundamentalists think these babas and sants are Hindu missionaries out to destroy Sikh faith. So they want to tear down and destroy what they think of as the enemy. And in so distorting they become the enemy and do Adharmic things.

Please show me in which Hindu scriptures it says to disrespect, insult, and provoke hatred for the religion of others in any Dharmic scriptures. Otherwise it is only Chandu Ji's opinion. I have given many examples as proof of how people can lose Dharma thinking they are protecting it.

Hatred and derision only scapegoat others and make them vulnerable to violence. This is not any path to union with the Divine. And union with the Divine is the whole point of Dharma.

Believe what you will. I have to respectfully disagree with your methods. And these have been my reasons. But I still agree with you that missionaries need to be confronted and stopped from committing fraud on the public. I just don't agree with waging war against religion.

We should give all people a fair chance and not tear them down in public. Even criminals deserve a fair trial. Otherwise we may hate so much we become complicit to murder of actual sants. And that is maha paap.

We should not become blind in our hatred of others, or in hatred of their religion. The Spiritually blind person can't protect a Dharma he can't perceive.

~bhul chak maaf karni ji

Harjas Kaur
10 October 2009, 01:22 AM
The Many Faces of Benny Hinn 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kn-1bedxGY

Missionaries who commit fraud are reprehensible and should be stopped from their mischief. But we have to use extreme caution not to further victimize victims. When people are grasping at faith, who are we to snatch it from them without even replacing it with something better?

We should enter this arena with great care and wise discernment/vivek so those who are most vulnerable, alienated, poor, sick do not feel further ostracism by our rejection, our hostility and our hatred.

Oppose wrong-doers for the wrong they do. Don't make generalizations against the faith of those who need it most which will only hurt the people who need our support, education, outreach, prayers, pujas, dasvandh, and loving concern. The reasons people convert are many. How can we hurt them? We should try to reach out to them with our positive, beautiful, precious Dharma.

But those who do criminal mischief need to be removed from society, with force if necessary.

TatTvamAsi
14 October 2009, 02:53 AM
But those who do criminal mischief need to be removed from society, with force if necessary.

A very brief but brilliant statement.

The stupid pseudo-secular pious egotistic Hindus need to understand this before they bring India down with them.

Eastern Mind
14 June 2011, 12:59 PM
Vannakkam: I didn't really know where to put this. Seems the Indian government does do something sometimes.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/14/stories/2011061454100400.htm

Aum Namasivaya

wundermonk
14 June 2011, 01:48 PM
I saw that story too...It is a one off event. Our politicians are clueless about the design of Abrahamics. The Pope came to New Delhi and had the gumption to say that the cross has to be planted in India in the new century. The only thing that unites communists, politicians, Christians, Muslims and elite newsroom anchors in India is their hatred of anything and everything related to Sanatana Dharma :(

Pretty depressing, if you ask me.

Eastern Mind
14 June 2011, 02:33 PM
I saw that story too...It is a one off event. Our politicians are clueless about the design of Abrahamics. The Pope came to New Delhi and had the gumption to say that the cross has to be planted in India in the new century. The only thing that unites communists, politicians, Christians, Muslims and elite newsroom anchors in India is their hatred of anything and everything related to Sanatana Dharma :(

Pretty depressing, if you ask me.

Vannakkam wunder: Yes, I kind of figured that ... We remain clueless over here on this side of the planet about India ... (Not to say the reverse isn't true some days) still, twas better than nuthin' at all.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
14 June 2011, 03:36 PM
Vannakkam: I didn't really know where to put this. Seems the Indian government does do something sometimes.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/14/stories/2011061454100400.htm

Aum Namasivaya

Heh, emphasis on "sometimes."

Seriously though, what I think is noteworthy is that the villagers stood up and acted. They detained the missionaries for making conversion attempts. At the end of the day, government can only do so much. Government is good at protecting its citizens from foreign attacks and stopping people from killing each other. But for something like missionary activity, the solution can only come from active participation by individuals. I'm hoping that more Indians will become educated about the dangers of Christianity, and choose to stop missionaries from converting people. This is the only long-lasting solution.

wundermonk
14 June 2011, 09:34 PM
Seriously though, what I think is noteworthy is that the villagers stood up and acted. They detained the missionaries for making conversion attempts. At the end of the day, government can only do so much. Government is good at protecting its citizens from foreign attacks and stopping people from killing each other. But for something like missionary activity, the solution can only come from active participation by individuals. I'm hoping that more Indians will become educated about the dangers of Christianity, and choose to stop missionaries from converting people. This is the only long-lasting solution.

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, the libertarian in me is adamant that the government should just stay out of the business of endorsement/condemnation of any religion. Just take a non-stance, if it can. Let individual people figure things out for themselves. That is also true secularism.

The situation in India is one of pseudo-secularism - minority appeasement, actually. A famous case was the banning of the Satanic Verses. Our so-called secular government at that time bowed down to Muslim pressure and banned the book even before Iran or Saudi Arabia did. A Muslim University professor/dean actually said that that didnt make sense. He said, the book should be available in India and Indians ought to have the freedom to read the book if they so choose. His own Muslim students thrashed him the next day and sent him to the Intensive Care Unit. The student leader after dispensing his own version of Shariah justice to the Professor said something to the effect that - "India is secular. So, no religion should be made fun of". Voltaire would have turned in his grave!

The right to make fun of religion, in particular, and any ideology/philosophy in general, is precisely what is safeguarded under free speech and secularism. But in India the concept gets completely twisted.

But yes, if there is any hope, here is where I see it - education. Let our government, civil society and individuals help the poor masses in villages suffering from grinding poverty. Let us help these poor folks get educated. It is my personal opinion that as one gets educated, one cannot but turn away from my-way-or-the-highway-to-hell type of Abrahamic religions.

kallol
15 June 2011, 09:55 AM
Have confidence in Hinduism. It is not a religion (founded by one - limited to time, space and society). It is a culmination of thousands of years of research on the subject. It is the eternal TRUTH from where the others derive their knowledge. It is most complete reservoir of the Eternal Truth.

As the mankind progresses more and more in science the only religion (if we call Hinduism as religion) who can be the guide still into the far future is Hinduism.

Already Islam and Christianity have fallen apart in keeping up with the progress of mankind and science. This is because those religions are limited by time space and society and had very little knowledge.

So the thrist for more knowledge of the science, creation, life and thus God will only push the mankind towards Hinduism.

This can be as the present day trends - Christianity converts the underdeveloped and mostly illiterate zones. Whereas Hinduism influences learned people.

Over more than 15000 years nothing happened to Hinduism even during the weakest period, it will never happen when India is growing in strength.

Love and best wishes

saidevo
24 December 2011, 10:54 PM
What has Saunta Clause to do with the TriveNI Sangamam?

Devotees, in Santa Claus costumes, pray at Sangam in Allahabad on Saturday.
http://www.deccanherald.com/photo.php?id=85

Who are these 'devotees' and what has Saunta Clause to do with the TriveNI Sangamam?

If these devotees are normal Indian Christians, it means that they are not secure about their own religious rituals. If they are evangelical Christians, it is to be objected, and perhaps amounts to desecration of a sacred Hindu place.

What do you think of such inculturation? I have reported this to HJS at:
http://www.hindujagruti.org/about-us/contact.php

Believer
25 December 2011, 09:53 AM
Namaste,

What do you think of such inculturation?
Thanks for sharing it with us. This is hilarious and sad at the same time.

The visual is hilarious, but the underlying act of trying to desecrate a holy Hindu site and claiming it for Xitians too, is sad, as is the sand sculpture on the beach in Puri. It definitely is a back handed soft approach to taking Xitianity to the heart of Hindu sacred places without seeming to create any controversy (thereby inviting law enforcement). I would say it is very cleaver, something that most people would 'just laugh it off', but the message to Hindus is clear - we are here, and we intend to keep converting, even in your own backyard.

Pranam.
-

JaiMaaDurga
26 December 2011, 01:42 AM
Namaste,

My initial reaction to the santa picture was bemusement, but there certainly is a disturbing undercurrent to it- one must ask, what is the intended message of this? Is it as Believer has posited, a subtle psychological attack by Christians? I for one would not put it past them- they see nothing wrong or hypocritical in lying ("we're just tourists") to prevent interference of their evangelizing.

I would like to think it was the other way around, that a pair of impish-minded Hindus were misguidedly trying to send a message of "Hey Christians, this is what your beloved Saint Nicholas would be doing, were he a truly holy man in the truly Holy Land!" This is probably not the case, but I can almost guarantee there will be some Christians who will take offense at the picture because they will percieve in it something along those lines.

These could also very well be Muslims or atheists, neither of whom have any pressing reason to respect either Hindu or Christian sensitivities.

"Stirring up the pot" can originate from malice, ignorance, immaturity, or some combination thereof; but there are never beneficial results from such activity. The wise among us find far better methods for calling public attention to a given issue, than indulging in the sort of activities shown by these two pictured.

Sadly, the media-obsessed culture that surrounds the globe rewards provocativeness for nothing more than its own sake; "meaningfulness is meaningless"; if one has nothing to say, than shout as loudly and stylishly as possible, and the ecstatic and momentary praise of fools is sure to come.

No matter the true story behind the santa picture, there is a flavor of emptiness, of sauciness masking an unfocused desperation, to me.

May Most-Beloved Maa Durga grant Her children strength in that desire for Truth, which draws us ever nearer to Her; may She help us to remember that the Lion is Hers to ride, the we need not ever be servants of our appetites, that Her love knows no fear, Her succor knows no limit and no failure.

JAI MATA DI

Seeker123
17 January 2012, 02:38 PM
I just noticed this thread and got done with reading with most of the posts here. This thread is several years old and has lot of interesting posts from many. I had started a similar thread

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8777

But the focus there is to come up with implementable ideas to strengthen Hindu Dharma. I request members to post their ideas there so that we can discuss and use our resources to generate activities that will strengthen our Hindu Dharma

Thank you!