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amith vikram
14 February 2010, 04:56 AM
namaste all,
i came across this when i was reading yoga vasishta.infact,this was mentioned in other places too,but i hadnt considered it then.
now,my doubt is:what is the significance of the akasha that we see?how is it defined wrt brahman?and is there a relation between the eternal akasha to the hridayakasha?i read something like,even this eternal,all pervading akasha is absorbed in that supreme jnana.some deep insight into this please....

and apart from the akasha,i read 1 more story,the story of shukha.in that,janaka says something,which i didnt get after which shukha realises.some thoughts on this too pls...

jai shri ram

Eastern Mind
14 February 2010, 07:37 AM
amith: I'd like to know more about akasha as well. What is it, for one, as I've heard different definitions? One thing I heard of is the existence of the akashic library where siddhars could go to get information on the history of the universe. Is this the same 'place' (more of a vibration, I would think) that your term refers to?

Aum Namasivaya

amith vikram
15 February 2010, 05:59 AM
EM,
yeah,i've read something close to what u've stated about the siddhas.there r 3 types of akasha:chittakasha,elementary akasha and chidakasha.
the siddhas actually go and live in a certain domain in chidaksha(i'm not 100pc sure),like people go 2 heaven.
but all these worlds r due 2 sankalpas(will) of the mind.when the mind is pacified and devoid of false notions and desires,there'll be the non-existance of all the akashas and only the pure intelligence of brahman shines.

saidevo
15 February 2010, 10:07 AM
namaste Amith and EM.

BhagavAn DAs in his book "The Science of Peace" has deal with the nature of space and its relationship to Brahman. I have serialized this entire book and posted at in HDF. Please check this thread for his teachings about space-time-motion, which like the other triads in manifestation, is closely related.

adhyAtmavidyA' in Synthesis: 12. 'dvam-dvam'--The Relative: Negation as Interrplay
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2860

Please check from post #2 onwards for the information about space-time-motion.

yajvan
15 February 2010, 10:58 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



i've read something close to what u've stated about the siddhas.there r 3 types of akasha:chittakasha,elementary akasha and chidakasha.
ākāśa - that which allows room for things to exist. It is considered space, pure space. Nothing can exist without proper room for it to occur in.

As amith vikram points out there are 3 types of ākāśa :


Space we ~see~ and is part of the pañcabhūta-s i.e. the 5 elements space, fire, water,air and earth; this space is called bhūtākāśa. People mainly say ākāśa but are inferring bhūtākāśa
cidākāśa - the space of consciousness
cittākāśa - the space of mindSome look at this word like this: ā+kāśa . The a is viewed as 'not' + kāśa is becoming visible , appearance. So ā+kāśa is not visible. Which aligns nicely with space.

Yet this is not so intriguing to me as ā being a noun for śiva and kāśa defined as man. It is śiva (ā) which provides the room for man (kāśa) to exists. Said another way , it is the Boundless (śiva) which provides the bound (kāśa) to exist.

Yet we can look at it this was too; ākā - is to be pleased, but pleased with what ? śa , once again another name of śiva.
Now we have the Boundless (śa) that is pleased (ākā) with the boundries ( creation as I see it).

We can go deeper and wider if one wishes after reviewing some of the references that saidevo has offered. The wisdom of Ramaṇa Mahaṛṣi can be reviewed then if there is interest.

praṇām

saidevo
15 February 2010, 11:05 AM
namaste Yajvan.

BhagavAn DAs has mainly spoken about manifestation in the physical space. Now that you have given the meanings of chidAkAsha and chiiAkAsha, please proceed to explain the relationship among the triad and how they relate to Brahman and the jIva.

yajvan
15 February 2010, 01:01 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté saideveo (et.al)


namaste Yajvan.
BhagavAn DAs has mainly spoken about manifestation in the physical space. Now that you have given the meanings of chidAkAsha and chiiAkAsha, please proceed to explain the relationship among the triad and how they relate to Brahman and the jIva.

There are several places we can go for this wisdom - the upaniṣads, the brahma sūtra-s, yoga vasișțha, etc.

Note if you look inside this ākāśa, you have ka क , another name for brahman ( 3rd derivation). But let's again look further. This bhūtākāśa is offered as a symbol (saṃketa) in the Bṛhadaraṇyaka Upaniṣad - Khila khaṇḍa -Oṁ Kham Brāhma Brāhmaṇa. Why so? To help us think of this expansiveness, boundlessness.

We think of ākāśa without bounds, with no end in sight, thought, time, or space. Like that it helps stretch our minds to just get a feel for this greatness of brahman. And we see this seed (bīja) sound kha ख or khaṁ खं ; defined as a cavern, vacuity , empty space , air , ether. Once again we are brought back to the simularities of brahman and ākāśa. And we can see this ākāśa as the representative of cidākāśa, cittākāśa, & bhūtākāśa.

Lets see what Ramaṇa Mahaṛṣi says regarding this matter that ties all 3 ākāśa-s together and back to the individual. A question is posed to Ramaṇa Mahaṛṣi-ji:
It is said that cidākāśa (the space of consciousness) itself is ātma svarūpa ( or the image/body of ātma or Self) and that we can view it only with the help of the mind. How can we see it if the mind has subsided?

Ramaṇa Mahaṛṣi-ji replies:
If the sky is taken as an illustration it must be stated to be of 3 varieties i.e. cidākāśa, cittākāśa and bhūtākāśa¹ .
The natural state is cidākāśa, the 'I' feeling that is born from cidākāśa and cittākāśa. As that cittākāśa expands
and takes the shape of all the bhūtā-s ( elements) this is all bhūtākāśa.

When cittākāśa which is consciousness of the self (I) does not see cidākāśa but sees bhūtākāśa, it is said to be mano-ākāśa. And when it leaves mano-ākāśa and sees cidākāśa it is said to be cinmaya ( pure consciousness). The subsiding of the mind means the multiplicity (variety) of objects vanishes and the idea of One-ness ( i.e. brahman , this is my word) of objects appear. When that is achieved everything appears natural.

This seems a bit esoteric no doubt, yet what is the point here? Cidākāśa, cittākāśa, & bhūtākāśa may be viewed as distinct but they are just Infinite Conciousness (brahman) in various formats. We can see it this way perhaps: brahman as cidākāśa consciousness or spiritual, as cittākāśa or the mental faculty and all that this implies ( intellect, feeling levels, etc) and as bhūtākāśa, all of creation on every possible level. We noted that bhūtākāśa in the last post is the essence ( the most subtle and elemental) of all the elements when speaking of creation.

We can pursue some of the wisdom of the upaniṣads to compare and contrast this knowledge in further posts as others participate and
contemplate some of this notions.


praṇām

words

space as part of the pañcabhūta's is called bhūtākāśa. People mainly say ākāśa but are inferring bhūtākāśa
cidākāśa - the space of consciousness
cittākāśa - the space of mind

smaranam
15 February 2010, 05:13 PM
Ramaṇa Mahaṛṣi-ji replies:
If the sky is taken as an illustration it must be stated to be of 3 varieties i.e. cidākāśa, cittākāśa and bhūtākāśa¹ .
The natural state is cidākāśa, the 'I' feeling that is born from cidākāśa and cittākāśa. As that cittākāśa expands
and takes the shape of all the bhūtā-s ( elements) this is all bhūtākāśa.

When cittākāśa which is consciousness of the self (I) does not see cidākāśa but sees bhūtākāśa, it is said to be mano-ākāśa. And when it leaves mano-ākāśa and sees cidākāśa it is said to be cinmaya ( pure consciousness). The subsiding of the mind means the multiplicity (variety) of objects vanishes and the idea of One-ness ( i.e. brahman , this is my word) of objects appear. When that is achieved everything appears natural.

Namaste Yajvanji

In other words, turning outwards (bahirmukh) , mind perceives bhutAkAsh
Turning inwards (antarmukh) , mind perceives chidAkAsh ?

praNAm

saidevo
15 February 2010, 10:47 PM
namaste everyone.

AkAsha is a beautiful and intriguing as well as revealing concept to understand the nature of Brahman. Since the bhUtAkAsha--physical space, is more appealing in our waking state, as it belongs to the senses, let us explore it further.

• Space and time are closely related to motion as BhagavAn DAs explains. Space is empty, and time is also empty, without any motion. It is motion or movement that gives reality to both.

• We can readily understand time in terms of movement or change. When we look at a clock, we perceive time by the movement of its hands. In life, we understand time by incidents, one incident or event replacing another. When we think about time, we understand it as something that has slipped away--past, slipping away now--present, and is yet to come from an unknown source but only to slip away.

• We readily understand the nature and reality of space when we move or see an object in motion. When we look at a room, which is not motion to our senses, we still understand the space inside the room by the movement of our vision. It is the movement of vision that gives us the spatial dimensions of a two-dimensional object.

• However, the sensual perception changes, when we try to look at space and time, by closing our eyes for some prolonged time. Suppose we don't hear the whirr of the ceiling fan, or the tick of the clock or any other sound, how would we regard space and time in this state where we remain just closing our eyes, all our physical, mental and intellectual faculties otherwise in full swing. It would be interesting to discuss this sort of physico-mental aloofness.

• Why don't we perceive any space or time, physically, mentally, or intellectually during the state of deep sleep? Because in that state there is absolutely nothing to move or change.

Thus, motion is what makes space and time, realities and make them filled with meaning. This motion, I think, is ultimately cyclic, although it could be linear or random for a short time. What goes up, comes down in a cycle. What goes around, comes around. The digits cycle in a pertrol pump gauge: the same digit appears again and again in time and because of their lateral displacement, gives us the reading of the measurement.

As Yajvan has very well explained, the parts of the word 'AkAsha', explain its nature.

• As he has said, the 'ka' indicates Brahman and the bIja--seed, 'kha/kham' derived from it springs up the bhUtAkAsha. The conjoint of the remaining parts 'A' and 'sha' with this 'ka' is interesting.

• The suffix 'sha' has three meanings; 1. a cutter, destroyer; 2. a weapon; 3. of Shiva (Apte's dictionary). And 'shaM' means 'happiness'. How do they apply to and limit the concept of 'ka'--Brahman, as AkAsha?

• The prefix 'A' has several meanings, depending on what it combines with. Here it combines with a noun, 'ka' (Brahman), so it means 'near, near to, towards, from all sides, all around'.

• Combining, 'ka' with the prefix 'A' and the suffix 'sha', we get:

01. AkAshaH in the first/nominative case, is that which is the nearest to Brahman or that which surrounds him as his first form of manifestation.

02. AkAshaM in the second/accusative case, which is the objective case, limits our perception of Brahman to that of the AkAsha--sky/space, which we mentally/intellectually understand as infinite although it appears limited to our vision.

03. 'sha' with its first meaning 'cutter, destroyer', limits the infinite nature of 'ka'--Brahman to that of the AkAsha. Brahman is actually beyond the AkAsha, which is only contained in him.

In the second meaning 'weapon', 'sha' serves as an mental instrument for us to understand Brahman. In the same way that a biologist dissects an insect using a weapon and views its features under the microscope, we have only a dissected view of Brahman in AkAsha.

The third meaning of 'sha', namely 'of Shiva', beautifully conjoins with 'ka'--Brahman to indicate that Shiva is Brahman.

And the objective form of 'sha' as 'shaM' meaning 'happiness', indicates the ultimate nature of Brahman who is Shiva.

It would be even more interesting to study the Sanskrit term for time, 'kAlaH'.

Just we are conscious of both space and time in bhUtAkAsha, I think the same would be true in chittAkAsha too, but they (would) disappear when we (are able to) experience chidAkAsha, which is the purest and subtlest form of AkAsha. I also think that our consciousness is rooted in the chittAkAsha in our dreams and chidAkAsha in our deep sleep state.

yajvan
16 February 2010, 10:27 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

saideveo has done a fine job of rounding out this discussion.
I wish to add just a few more ideas over the next few posts , yet wish to offer this.

We know ākāśa - that which allows room for things to exist. We exist and bathe in this tattva ( that-ness) every second of the day. What I find most intriguing is we are never in the same space twice.

If you get up and go to the window to look out then come back to your seat, it is no longer in the same space. But yajvan, I have not moved the chair one millimeter - I must be in the same place. This is true but place is not the same as space. The space that your chair ( and you) occupied a moment ago is no longer in that exact position.
We ( you and the chair) have moved through it to a new space. ANd this new space is no longer there as we continue to move. All of us , people, earth, solar system are adrift in infinite space. So even if we return to the same exact coordinates of earth in the solar system next year , the whole system, let alone the galaxy has moved billions of miles, never once standing still.

Even planets that we view from earth as if stopped between it's forward motion and retrograde motion stands still for us , the viewer , it is still being swept further and further into space. All this movement cannot occur without ākāśa...

na hi kaṣcit svasmin ātmani muhūrtam avatiṣṭhate or, there is nothing that exists in its own form even for a moment (muhūrta). We are different, the universe is different. This comes from the discussion of some historical grammarians (Pāṇini, Patañjali, etc.) that are defining the understanding of kriyā (action) dhātu (its roots) as it relates to sattā ( existence).

And what is this sattā ? It is defined as Being, existence. It is made of sat + tā. Sat is truth, that which really is; the self-existent or Universal Supreme brahma. This 'ta' has many definitions, one is nector. So we can say existence (sattā) is the nector (ta) of the Supreme (sat).

praṇām

amith vikram
16 February 2010, 11:17 PM
namaste all,
thank you so much for the exhaustive explainations on this topic,yajvan and saidevo.
jai shri ram