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Einherjar
15 February 2010, 02:05 AM
So, I've just recently gotten back into meditating again after a several year hiatus. I was really impatient when I first got into it and wanted results immediately, got fed up and fell out of practice for a while.

After a couple days of getting back into the practice, I decided to fast for a day and meditate as many times as I could (I have back problems from years of skateboarding and hockey so it can be hard to sit like that for more than 30 minutes sometimes). I had 4 different sessions throughout the day, and then during the last one as I was really getting into it, I was trying to envision my energy flowing through my chakras as I breathed, and, with my eyes closed, suddenly what would have been between my eyes in my field of vision began glowing a whitish yellow color and began to pulsate?

I've experienced the calming sensation of meditation before but I've never experienced something so blatant like that that I could not ignore. Has anyone had a similar experience? And if so what were your thoughts on it?

It was a fairly profound experience, though I'm not entirely 100% sure what exactly it was. I've tried to communicate it to other people in my life, but I only have several friends that practice meditation, so I didn't really have anyone to connect on the experience with.

Eastern Mind
15 February 2010, 08:00 AM
Vannakkam Einherjar: Flashes of light, moonglow, whenever within a darkened room, and not as the residual effect of staring at something, yes. This is the start. Maintenance until it becomes a clear white bright light that you can go to at will with your will... Yes this is what the mystics and stages tell us. its called en lightenment after all.Aum Namasivaya

Einherjar
15 February 2010, 11:06 AM
Are there any specific ways in which one would meditate to come closer to this?

I've obviously already noticed the effects of fasting during the activity. I currently use a mantra and sit with my legs crossed and spine straight (my joints are a little too messed up for the lotus position).

I use an interesting pranayama technique that I've yet to read a recommendation from in any hindu literature. I actually learned it from reading many a book on Thelema and other western esoteric practices. It's essentially, 12 syllabic-counts on the inhale, with the exhale slowed to about 24.

I basically just want to bounce what I'm doing off of someone else to see if there's a better way I could go about it, or if there's something I'm missing that I could improve upon.

Eastern Mind
15 February 2010, 11:32 AM
Einherjar: One of the things that drops fairly quickly with a real transition form western thinking to eastern thinking is the idea of impatience. Eastern thinkers worry about such things far less, seeing the soul as on a path, evolving, and not identifying with the body so much. This is because of a strong intuitive belief in reincarnation. There is no hurry. Western thinkers on the other hand, because of western programming, (mainly Christianity, but also atheism and agnosticism) tend to be more impatient. They see this life as THE life. Therefore, they figure they have to get it all accomplished now. Unless you have had many previous lives of meditation and mixing with divinity, it probably isn't going to happen overnight. It will go even slower when undue stress is put upon oneself by oneself. World class athletes learn how to relax, even in a 100 m sprint. it's like that.

Aum Namasivaya

Einherjar
15 February 2010, 12:15 PM
I'm aware of this. I've been breaking down many walls in the realm of linear dualistic western thought.

As I've mentioned, I have done much studying of Thelema, the system which is a derivation of western esoteric practices (Masonic rituals, The Golden Dawn, Hermetic Qabalah, etc) and eastern concepts of macrocosmic unity. In The Book of the Law (Liber Al Vel Legis) "by" Aleister Crowley, it is stated "For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect"

Not that it is an easy undertaking by any means, but I am definitely not in the same state of lusting for results now as I was when I had previously practiced meditation. I enjoy it for what it is, I was merely wondering if you, or anyone else here, had any suggestions that could add to the experiences I've been having.

Eastern Mind
15 February 2010, 01:59 PM
Vannakkam :

Being a person leaning towards bkakti, and temple worship, my only suggestion would be to go try meditating in a quiet spot within the confines of a temple, where an inner vibration has already been built up by like minded souls. This will most likely yield different or more intense results, but i may vary on the temple, and your own seed karmas. That's all I have as I know absolutely nothing of the authors or the practises you mentioned.

Aum Namasivaya

Einherjar
15 February 2010, 02:16 PM
Thank you, I will try that. I'm also thinking that it could be an interesting experience when it gets warmer to spend time in meditation outside of man-made constructs. It remains a little cold at the moment in Colorado for someone of my skill level to attempt that, but once spring comes I'm greatly looking forward to it.

Now the only problem is finding a Hindu temple in my area.

Eastern Mind
15 February 2010, 04:29 PM
Vannakkam: A google search will find you a Hindu temple there. Meditating out side can be awesome if you find the right place. I'm in Canada and last year we built an outdoor Dakshinamurthi (Siva as the Ultimate Meditator) shrine in the middle of the forest near our temple. It has a clarity all its own as there is less dross there. Although it is cold now, still the place has a pristine vibration. I go once a week to do an aarti and my meditation time varies. I think it is directly to temperature. -30 may be pristine but ... Only Canadians, some Americans, and Siberians get this.


Aum Namasivaya

atanu
16 February 2010, 01:47 AM
So, I've just recently gotten back into meditating again after a several year hiatus. I was really impatient when I first got into it and wanted results immediately, got fed up and fell out of practice for a while.

After a couple days of getting back into the practice, I decided to fast for a day and meditate as many times as I could (I have back problems from years of skateboarding and hockey so it can be hard to sit like that for more than 30 minutes sometimes). I had 4 different sessions throughout the day, and then during the last one as I was really getting into it, I was trying to envision my energy flowing through my chakras as I breathed, and, with my eyes closed, suddenly what would have been between my eyes in my field of vision began glowing a whitish yellow color and began to pulsate?

I've experienced the calming sensation of meditation before but I've never experienced something so blatant like that that I could not ignore. Has anyone had a similar experience? And if so what were your thoughts on it?

It was a fairly profound experience, though I'm not entirely 100% sure what exactly it was. I've tried to communicate it to other people in my life, but I only have several friends that practice meditation, so I didn't really have anyone to connect on the experience with.


Namaste Einherjar,

As EM has mentioned, experience of flashes of light or being washed with light may be the beginning but it still carries the notion "I am seeing light". It is calming or for some such experience may not be calming. And such experience is surely not continuos, whereas we know that Brahman is unchangeable bliss. Eventually the seer and the seen both have to be seen. :)

I have studied, but do not remember where, that meditation in closed space is surpassed many times over by meditation at river bank or at mountain. Possibly, it faciltates to realise the infinite in the point of consciousness.

Om Namah Shivaya

Einherjar
16 February 2010, 04:12 AM
Yes, ego dissolution can be a tricky matter.

I've been considering adding the use of incense to my meditation ritual. Would this be helpful or ultimately pointless since the acknowledgment of it involves the use of individual biological senses?

MahaHrada
16 February 2010, 06:23 AM
So I had 4 different sessions throughout the day, and then during the last one as I was really getting into it, I was trying to envision my energy flowing through my chakras as I breathed.

Lights visions, sonic halluzinations and strange bodily feelings, for example as if the body or parts of the body contort or the feeling that body parts change in other positions while actually you don´t move , or that the whole body starts floating, can occur in meditation

These impressions are distractions from the object of meditation and one should not be attached to them, let them rise in the mind and eventually they will dissappear. They are unwanted and not the result of meditation but obstructions.

The reason such experiences occur is that in meditation by assuming a fixed unmoving seating position regulation of breath and fixing of the eyesight or closing the eyes, one is in a so called state of sensory deprivation.

When the senses are full deprived or partly deprived of input while in the waking state, they produce imaginative objects on their own , and it is possible that dreamlike illusory states appear while being in the waking state, so like in a dream past impressions (samskaras) and memories (smriti) can surface from the unciousness as halluzinations and Illusions.

Of course there is the possibillity that the practise since it involved some instructions to move prana (energy) in the chakras could have caused
some inbalances in your nadis (nadi= subtle channels of energy) that led to the result.

Moving prana in the body is a very advanced method that needs a lot of purification and preparation.

By all meditation masters it is well known that these obscuring visions appear in the beginning of the practice of meditation due to sense deprivation and it is recommend to strictly ignore them, if one attaches importance to them it may result in mental states similar to clinical psychosis.
To determine wether this was caused by sense deprivation or the premature practise of moving prana i would like to know, how did you envison energy flowing through your chakras and what should have been the result of this practice according to the instruction?

If you like you can also pm me about that which is probably better.



Wikipedia on effects of full and partly sensory deprivation using floating tanks and other devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

Eastern Mind
16 February 2010, 08:06 AM
Yes, ego dissolution can be a tricky matter.

I've been considering adding the use of incense to my meditation ritual. Would this be helpful or ultimately pointless since the acknowledgment of it involves the use of individual biological senses?

Vannakkam: For me it definitely enhances. But perhaps now it is just a Pavlov's Dog response. Same thing with temples. Certain sounds, smells etc that become associated with meditation make it easier because subconsciously it takes you to the place you were before.

Why not experiment and find out for your self. I do find that different brands work better.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
16 February 2010, 08:12 AM
These impressions are distractions from the object of meditation and one should not be attached to them, let them rise in the mind and eventually they will dissappear. They are unwanted and not the result of meditation but obstructions.


Vannakkam MahaHrada: You and I would differ here. I agree with the non-attachment part, but not that they would disappear. I have heard mystics describe self realisation as being totally surrounded by clear light, and then being dissolved into that light, becoming totally unaware of anything but that light. My view is that inner light is part of mystic reality, not just some hallucinatory state.

Of course you have the right to differ.

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
16 February 2010, 08:40 AM
Vannakkam MahaHrada: You and I would differ here. I agree with the non-attachment part, but not that they would disappear. I have heard mystics describe self realisation as being totally surrounded by clear light, and then being dissolved into that light, becoming totally unaware of anything but that light. My view is that inner light is part of mystic reality, not just some hallucinatory state.

Of course you have the right to differ.

Aum Namasivaya

We are here talking about the very beginning stages of meditation. Visons in beginning stages of meditation are always halluzinations. Usually if you do a month long retreat as an inexperienced Yogi, with hours of daily meditation, illusions may last for weeks and may then slowly subside and give way to peace, this is known by all serious practicioners and masters of whatever denomination. Even after 3 years or more of daily meditation we are usually far away from having mystic experiences. Sometimes it helps to consider the whole content of the original posting before answering :) The op clearly states that he is a beginner.
Every serious traditional teacher of meditation will give the same advice to a beginner in meditation, as I am giving, except quacks and fakes who want to offer access to fast results and psycho cults who brainwash their members by sensory deprivation claiming it is enlightment.
In general meditation in the hindu tradition is about moving conciously from the waking state to the dream state, to deep sleep and beyond to turya by ekagrata (onepointedness) and realise pure awareness that is unattached to all the states, while nonetheless penetrating them all, getting stuck in the very beginning, (the dream state of the waking state) is dangerous.

saidevo
16 February 2010, 09:36 AM
namaste Einherjar.

Perhaps these links could be of help:

Meditation and its Utility in Daily Life With Practical Hints
by Sri Swami Premananda
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/premamedit.htm

The information in the Website: http://www.swamij.com/index.html

Eastern Mind
16 February 2010, 09:40 AM
MahaHrada:

Trust me. I don't come here to argue. Light in the beginning is a signal. its like turning the key on a car for a long car ride. You are absolutely correct that serious teaches would advise not to go exploring that light, and that the light is not the goal in itself. Serious teachers start with ethics and morals.

But to state that they are hallucinations is an insult to me and anyone else that has had such temporal indicators. I feel like I am in a psychiatrist's office.

As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion. I would suggest you kindly do the same for me.

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
16 February 2010, 10:04 AM
MahaHrada:

Trust me. I don't come here to argue. Light in the beginning is a signal. its like turning the key on a car for a long car ride. You are absolutely correct that serious teaches would advise not to go exploring that light, and that the light is not the goal in itself. Serious teachers start with ethics and morals.

But to state that they are hallucinations is an insult to me and anyone else that has had such temporal indicators. I feel like I am in a psychiatrist's office being diagnosed with schizophrenia.

As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion. I would suggest you kindly do the same for me.

Aum Namasivaya

I will spell it out again: Visual or sonic or bodily halluzinations are a very common phenomena in the beginning stages of meditation it is vital that these have to be understod as a dreamlike illusion, all Gurus that teach and have experience with prolonged Meditation retreats are aware of this, if you do not know it this is really not my problem it is common knowledge that psychosis can result from taking these visions serious.
Because such ideas are dangerous to the mental health of people that read HDF i will not at all be kind. New age sentimentalism is a poison that corrupts bharata dharma i do not feel that being kind and understanding is useful in this topic, not for you not for the op and not for others. Of course everybody has his choice to belive what he wants but he has to live with the consequences. Therefore i think it is my duty to spell out clearly and unmistakenly what is the truth in this matter.
If the op belives in the authority of Aleister Crowley listening to my advice is probably a good choice since my Gurus Guru learnend from Aleister Crowley directly all he could teach about Yoga before he went to India also on his advice, to complete his training.

Eastern Mind
16 February 2010, 10:33 AM
Vannakkam:

I have absolutely no idea of Aleister Crowley was or is, nor do I care. Studying one's books does not necessarily imply 'believing in the authority of' but perhaps it does. I did do a search on Hinduism + inner light and got quite a few hits. So clearly there is something to it.

Apparently you think I'm a new-ager as well. I can assure you I'm not. I was just originally attempting to be helpful to the OP by stating what I knew.

"Spelling out clearly and unmistakeably what is the truth on this matter" sounds too much like a prefix to a fundamentalist Christian's introduction to Jesus for me. Because of this and your perception of my ignorance on this matter without any background check, I am withdrawing from this conversation.

To the OP: If you want any further opinions from me, please PM me.

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
16 February 2010, 10:38 AM
Apparently you think I'm a new-ager as well. I can assure you I'm not..

"Spelling out clearly and unmistakeably what is the truth on this matter" sounds too much like a prefix to a fundamentalist Christian's introduction to Jesus for me.

Aum Namasivaya

Being a Hindu does not mean that one has to be tolerant of all kind of rubbish.
Accepting that high stages of Yoga can occur after twenty minutes of meditation shure sounds like it is influenced by new age consumerism.

Whether you like it or not true mystical visons of light/sound (Bindu NAda)are high stages of insight and simply do not happen after one day fast and a few hours meditation.

Is that so hard to accept?

One needs not to be a fundamentalist christian to know that the above is the Truth but one must be ignorant of traditional meditation retreats to belive otherwise.

sm78
16 February 2010, 12:54 PM
Being a Hindu does not mean that one has to be tolerant of all kind of rubbish.
Accepting that high stages of Yoga can occur after twenty minutes of meditation shure sounds like it is influenced by new age consumerism.

Whether you like it or not true mystical visons of light/sound (Bindu NAda)are high stages of insight and simply do not happen after one day fast and a few hours meditation.

Is that so hard to accept?

One needs not to be a fundamentalist christian to know that the above is the Truth but one must be ignorant of traditional meditation retreats to belive otherwise.

Whether one observes a white light or purple mist or a beautiful damsel or blue krishna at the door telling you are great or something, in meditation, one must consider what has the experience done for oneself.

As I see it makes people more paranoid, more stupid, less understanding, less intelligent, more self-important, clueless big mouths who just make look the so called spirituality a big joke when confronted with rational thought.

Religion has always been an opium for masses and excuse for stupidity. The condition of hinduism and bharata is worse, as hindus think they are more wise, have superior philosophy, deep spirituality and meditation tools and the right (and ofcourse the leasure!!) to argue about the nature of the absolute in a world where their govt cannot buy dresses for their w olympic atheletes.

And people keep wondering why hinduism is under attack.

yajvan
16 February 2010, 07:49 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Many good pieces of information have been offered above.

If one gets distracted by various experiences and chases them as a child chases a stray balloon in the air, then effort has been expended with little results.
I have been taught that when these experiences come ( and go) we just don't mind them much. While enjoyable to experience they come and go like clouds in the sky.

It is as if one is walking down the street and looks in a window while passing a shop... we see something but continue forward to our destination - It is the scenery along the way.

For those new to the path, these events of light or sound or body sensations are new. They should be discussed or acknowledged , but seen for what they are. They come they go, the same way a shooting star captures our awareness in the sky at night.

Ask yourself - how do I feel, act, think after meditation with the infusion of more clarity and pure awareness in my daily experience. We want more of that clarity to spill into activity and to be stabilized.

Now that said, there are specific practices (upāya-s) called out in the Vijñāna Bhairava that include the attention between the brow.
The intent is simple - madhya¹ .

praṇām


words
madhya - middle most; standing between two; this is where one finds turīya, the 4th.

Eastern Mind
16 February 2010, 08:27 PM
Namaste Yajvan: As usual, I am in total agreement.

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
17 February 2010, 02:38 PM
The Yoga of the Agama Shaiva Siddhanta and Trika kaula has six angas or parts or auxilarys, they are Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Tarka, Dhyana, Samadhi.

Except Tarka (Judgement) the other angas are well known in other Systems of Yoga. Though not mentioned as an anga of Yoga in other Yoga shastras it is considered as the most important Anga in the agamic Yoga.

Without Judgement or Discrimination between what is accepted and what has to be rejected no progress in any path of bharata dharma, be it Advaita Vedanta, Samkhya, Yoga, Bauddha, Tantra, Shaiva or Siddha Siddhanta can be made.

Judgement and rejection of the illusiory is an universal requirement in all these darshanas.

A sadhak is not allowed to remain in ambiguity, neither rejecting nor accepting anything and he must not tolerate every kind of delusion under the umbrella of Hinduism, but discriminate.

Do we have to accept the validity of all kind of visons and claims of enlightment because we have to be forgiving and tolerant?

It seems that it doesn´t even matter for some if the person who has these visions is under the influence of constant medication because of his mental condition, and already has had schizophrenic or psychotic episodes.

Posting on an internet forum is not only light on a screen it can cause great harm to real people in the real world, especially when dealing with people that have mental problems in my opinion we have to show some responsibility and this includes help to discriminate between the real and the illusory.

According to the MAlinivijayaottara Tantra Tarka is the most important anga of Yoga:

Although being an auxiliary (anga) of yoga is common (to all other auxilaries) (Judgement (tarka) is the primary auxillary to Yoga since it is reflection on what must be rejected etc. Therefore it is enjoinend that efffort must be expended for it.

MAlinivijayaottara Tantra 17.19

Abhinavagupta writes in the Tantraloka:

It is certain that the learned sever the root of this tree (of differentiated awareness) which is difficult to cut with the hoe of correct judgement (sat tarka) its edge sharpened. The wise call it bhavana (insight contemplation) the cow which grants all wishes, who manifests even that which is inaccesible by desire...
Just as an ignorant person would hanker after inferior pleasures whether he has become aware of universal sovereignity or not, similarly in the case of liberation (he would aspire to lower stages) due to Limited Attachment (Raga)

In the svAyaMbhuvasUtrasangraha it is said about uha (discrimination):

Discrimination proceeds by impelling the mental processes which are stuck on the path. Once it has brought one to the final level, discrimination ceases at the highest point. Thereby the Yogi can discriminate between what is conducive to the perfection of Yoga and what is an obstruction, of which exists a great multiplicity.

svAyaMbhuvasUtrasangraha 20.31

In the Mrgendratantra this faculty is also called uha or abhviksana which means discriminating insight:

Since one knows by its operation which state is to be striven for and which is to be rejected, what nurtures it and what is inimical and what nurtures the enemy (of either state) uha is the most important Yoganga.

Mrgendratantra yp 9

In the Yogasutras of Patanjali instead of uha or tarka we find vivekakhyAti apprehension of discrimination:

The means of the avoidance of what has to be rejected is uninterrupted apprehension of discrimination
yogasutras 2.27

In the SAnkhyakArikA of Isvarakrishna uha is one of the 8 Perfections Gaudapada the Guru of Shankaracharya comments on it:

Judgement is when a certain person perpetually deliberates What here is the truth? What here is the ultimate? What is final beatitude? Doing what may I accomplish the pupose of my existence?
From such deliberation arises the knowledge that spirit is distinct from matter, that the intellect is distinct , that the individuator is distinct, that the sensory media, the senses and the five coarse elements are distinct. In this way arises the knowledge of the Principles whereby liberation takes place.

Einherjar
17 February 2010, 05:08 PM
Thank you everyone for the different opinions and various insights and tidbits of knowledge.

As I said in the original post, I was not entirely sure what I had experienced and was wondering what exactly it was. I have done meditation in the past, but I had not been regular about it for a few years, and even when I had done that before I never had an experience quite like that.

So, essentially from what I'm understanding is that this was the result of my body not wanting to accept the denial of the senses? The ego fighting back from trying to be calmed and stilled?

MahaHrada
17 February 2010, 05:19 PM
Thank you everyone for the different opinions and various insights and tidbits of knowledge.

As I said in the original post, I was not entirely sure what I had experienced and was wondering what exactly it was. I have done meditation in the past, but I had not been regular about it for a few years, and even when I had done that before I never had an experience quite like that.

So, essentially from what I'm understanding is that this was the result of my body not wanting to accept the denial of the senses? The ego fighting back from trying to be calmed and stilled?


It is more like a dreamstate while awake, memories, traumas, fears, desire suppressed content, everything can come up when the body and breath is controlled and senses are deprived of input. This is only an obstruction if one pays to much attention, one has to develop a non attached attitude and then it will be a release of tensions, ultimately these experiences will give place to calm.

If you look at saidevos link http://www.swamij.com/index.html
it is what the author decribes as active unconciousness.

Active Unconscious

By allowing the Active Unconscious to come forward and be witnessed in a neutral way, the thought patterns colored with intense attraction and aversion gradually weaken, allowing a greater peace and freedom of mind. This is one of the most direct ways to deal with the purifying, centering, or balancing of troublesome thoughts. However, few go beyond the boundary between the Active Unconscious and the Latent Unconscious. The Active Unconscious has alluring visions and sounds. Only the most dedicated Yogis are willing to completely transcend sensory experience of both external and internal objects, and to pursue the formless Latent level out of which the Active arises.

DavidC
19 February 2010, 11:45 PM
[...]This is only an obstruction if one pays to much attention, one has to develop a non attached attitude and then it will be a release of tensions, ultimately these experiences will give place to calm.

You are right that these will give way to calmness. However, I think you have been too critical of Eastern Mind, and if you are saying the third eye is mainly a hallucination that is just evidence you have not opened it. Some things Eastern Mind originally said was that many people (materialists) just think this life is their life, and a comment about en lightenment. However, when one opens the third eye, which is not just a flash of light, but is probably more (see the Kundalini thread in the Yoga section)--allows you to see mentally, then one realizes materialism is not true and that there is more than this life that was and still may be in Maya. If you had completely illuminated your inner vision so it was not black at all--so your mind was illuminated, then I do not think you would be saying it is a hallucination: what is in the mind could be a hallucination. Of course one can call forms like the mind irrelevant next to formlessness, which is basically true, but then you get into philosophy of how to be practical in the world.

Of course some people might use the third eye for bad reasons, but it also has to do with how great Masters have powers--how they can see things an average person cannot (and do psychic/miraculous things.) Buddha said he has an eye of wisdom, an eye of the cosmos, etc.. As for people using it for bad reasons, I would never take anyone seriously that condones Aleister Crowley. Maybe he did some useful research, which may not be very original, but he was also immoral and wrote things like his idea of what type of child is best to sacrifice for a black magic ritual. Yet he says he was not a black magician! Why would anyone trust such a Westerner about Yoga instead of a virtuous Indian? I would trust Eastern Mind on this topic more.

Einherjar
20 February 2010, 12:07 AM
You are right that these will give way to calmness. However, I think you have been too critical of Eastern Mind, and if you are saying the third eye is mainly a hallucination that is just evidence you have not opened it. Some things Eastern Mind originally said was that many people (materialists) just think this life is their life, and a comment about en lightenment. However, when one opens the third eye, which is not just a flash of light, but is probably more (see the Kundalini thread in the Yoga section)--allows you to see mentally, then one realizes materialism is not true and that there is more than this life that was and still may be in Maya. If you had completely illuminated your inner vision so it was not black at all--so your mind was illuminated, then I do not think you would be saying it is a hallucination: what is in the mind could be a hallucination. Of course one can call forms like the mind irrelevant next to formlessness, which is basically true, but then you get into philosophy of how to be practical in the world.

Of course some people might use the third eye for bad reasons, but it also has to do with how great Masters have powers--how they can see things an average person cannot (and do psychic/miraculous things.) Buddha said he has an eye of wisdom, an eye of the cosmos, etc.. As for people using it for bad reasons, I would never take anyone seriously that condones Aleister Crowley. Maybe he did some useful research, which may not be very original, but he was also immoral and wrote things like his idea of what type of child is best to sacrifice for a black magic ritual. Yet he says he was not a black magician! Why would anyone trust such a Westerner about Yoga instead of a virtuous Indian? I would trust Eastern Mind on this topic more.

I don't believe Aleister Crowley to be the greatest master of meditation of all time. He did, however, know what he was doing (most of the time. lol). There are a lot of misconceptions about Aleister Crowley due to his system of Thelema being at it's roots based on sexual energies. Due to this and the place/time he lived (Britain during the early 1900's along with a few other European nations) he could have been arrested and sent to jail for publishing things of that nature (Hurray for the Christian Church having political influences...). He also enjoyed people's misconceptions about him and laughed about them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley#Controversy

MahaHrada
20 February 2010, 09:51 AM
You are right that these will give way to calmness.

Judging from what you write I think you have misunderstood my postings.

I do not refer to chakras or kundalini and only mention the nadis in passing.

The topic is meditation, i do not associate visual hallucinations that occur in the beginning stages of meditation, with chakras or kundalini just because they appear at the level of the eyes.

Laya Yoga or Kundalini jagaran is a very advanced topic and very few people are well informend about the traditional methods nowadays.

I wonder why Yogis and tantrics need decades of meditation in secluded retreats to realise high attainments in Laya Yoga when others apparently at least according to you and other posters, awaken their third eye, or see the divine light or whatever already in a weekend meditation retreat.

Are these people so much more evolved that they can achieve these high stages so easily and the poor buddhist monks and hindu yogis so deluded they need to spent spent decades in retreat to achieve the same result?

In new age consumerism enlightment has become very cheap almost everybody today in the US and Europe is already enlightened, you only need to visit one neo advaita satsang once, or attend a weekend crash course and you come out with all your chakras opened and full enlightenement, cash back guranteed if not. But we are here in Hindu Dharma Forum thats why i presented the topic according to the Hindu shastras.

Eastern Mind
20 February 2010, 11:08 AM
I don't believe Aleister Crowley to be the greatest master of meditation of all time. He did, however, know what he was doing (most of the time. lol). There are a lot of misconceptions about Aleister Crowley due to his system of Thelema being at it's roots based on sexual energies. Due to this and the place/time he lived (Britain during the early 1900's along with a few other European nations) he could have been arrested and sent to jail for publishing things of that nature (Hurray for the Christian Church having political influences...). He also enjoyed people's misconceptions about him and laughed about them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley#Controversy

Vannakkam all: I know I said I was done, but I can't resist. Firstly I totally understand that the OP was referring to totally beginning stages. So was I. It is the beginning stages. The advanced stages, from my understanding, are exactly that, for the advanced. There is plenty of new age mumble jumble out there to get one confused. As Yajvan so eloquently pointed out, "They come, they go" regarding these initial experiences. Being a believer in Sanatana Dharma, and a believer in taking it slowly, which is Sanatana dharma, I would say it is always best to just let this stuff go and not pursue it, unless you are under the direct day to day tutelage of a Hindu meditation Guru who knows what he's talking about, and you are under some vows as a renunciate in an established parampara. For the vast majority of us, including me, we don't even have the will to meditate properly anyway, so we take to bhakti, proper lifestyle, just doing seva, and learning some control of our own emotions.

Aum Namasivaya

DavidC
21 February 2010, 10:33 PM
Judging from what you write I think you have misunderstood my postings.

Well, I think you have misunderstood me and Eastern Mind.


I do not refer to chakras or kundalini and only mention the nadis in passing.I did because the Yoga section Kundalini thread discusses how Kundalini opens the third eye, and the biological functioning of the third eye. When a forceful motion up the entire spine and into the head causes light in ajna, it is quite stronger and more orderly than random electrical light below and behind the eyes.


The topic is meditation, i do not associate visual hallucinations that occur in the beginning stages of meditation, with chakras or kundalini just because they appear at the level of the eyes.Fine. The light of ajna chakra occurs a bit above the eyes anyway... and its activity is quite a different coloured and more intense eye-shaped illumination than any small amount of random electrical activity in the brain's visual areas. As I implied, the third eye also has to do with a different area--the pineal gland, which has optic nerve endings. When light goes into those it is quite different and you will know it has happened. I had not even known there were optic nerves there, but it makes sense.


I wonder why Yogis and tantrics need decades of meditation in secluded retreats to realise high attainments in Laya Yoga when others apparently at least according to you and other posters, awaken their third eye, or see the divine light or whatever already in a weekend meditation retreat.

Are these people so much more evolved that they can achieve these high stages so easily and the poor buddhist monks and hindu yogis so deluded they need to spent spent decades in retreat to achieve the same result?
In decades of meditation they can accomplish higher things... for example the calmess you mentioned, and developing practical wisdom, as well as more advanced things that mere illumination of the third eye--such as powers/miracles. Maybe not all the 'yogis' and 'tantrics' are purifying themselves with ahimsa. Some also say you can achieve enlightenment in 1 - 1.5 months of daily practice (but to attain the power to put that knowledge to certain greater use can take lifetimes, let alone decades.) It took me several months of Yoga before I opened my third eye... but that is not the end of the path--maybe the beginning. Before that it is full of doubtful intellectualism, which you seem to be focused on. In the next part I think you are stereotyping me, but since you are in Europe learning from the lineage of a teacher of European ethnicity, what you said applies much to yourself.


In new age consumerism enlightment has become very cheap almost everybody today in the US and Europe is already enlightened, you only need to visit one neo advaita satsang once, or attend a weekend crash course and you come out with all your chakras opened and full enlightenement, cash back guranteed if not. But we are here in Hindu Dharma Forum thats why i presented the topic according to the Hindu shastras.I see... and Aleister Crowley is the Hindu shastras and not New Age consumerism? You are the one that brought him up. The third eye is also studied in other cultures, so I do not feel the need to be restricted to the Hindu shastras, though they are great... but Crowley is not someone I would trust compared to any average esoteric philosophy, let alone great non-Indian ones such as the Nazareans & Pythagoreans and influenced Druids.

atanu
22 February 2010, 12:52 AM
I see... and Aleister Crowley is the Hindu shastras and not New Age consumerism? You are the one that brought him up. The third eye is also studied in other cultures, so I do not feel the need to be restricted to the Hindu shastras, though they are great... but Crowley is not someone I would trust compared to any average esoteric philosophy, let alone great non-Indian ones such as the Nazareans & Pythagoreans and influenced Druids.

Namaste David,

A wish arose to complement you with the following Gita verses:

2.39 Eshaa te’bhihitaa saankhye buddhir yoge twimaam shrinu;
Buddhyaa yukto yayaa paartha karma bandham prahaasyasi.

2.39. This which has been taught to thee, is wisdom concerning Sankhya. Now listen to wisdom concerning Yoga, endowed with which, O Arjuna, thou shalt cast off the bonds of action!

2.40 Nehaabhikramanaasho’sti pratyavaayo na vidyate;
Swalpam apyasya dharmasya traayate mahato bhayaat.

2.40. In this there is no loss of effort, nor is there any harm (the production of contrary results or transgression). Even a little of this knowledge (even a little practice of this Yoga) protects one from great fear.
------------------

This Yoga is about being meditative always, about renouncing the fruits of all action in favour of the All, in contrast to seeking the fruit for ego self.

Shri Krishna teaches that even a little practise of this knowledge (yoga with wisdom) washes off karma. Anyone, a westerner or an Indian, having been told this and duly practising this yoga, must have earned it through past karma and cannot instantly be judged as a New Age Consumer, unless the judgement itself is a fast food kind of thing, ignoring the possible effects of accrued karma -- good or bad, through past incarnations.

Although that is not to negate the most important role of a valid teacher and sat sangh towards staying in the course, which is slippery, I remember 'even a little practise' more than any thing else. Let it be New Age, if it is truly the Wisdom Yoga.

Judgement of New Age Consumerism, etcetra, is always relative. How many Brahmanas are practising Soma Yagna and Agnihotra and many other yagnas prescribed?

Om Namah Shivaya

Einherjar
22 February 2010, 01:12 AM
I see... and Aleister Crowley is the Hindu shastras and not New Age consumerism? You are the one that brought him up. The third eye is also studied in other cultures, so I do not feel the need to be restricted to the Hindu shastras, though they are great... but Crowley is not someone I would trust compared to any average esoteric philosophy, let alone great non-Indian ones such as the Nazareans & Pythagoreans and influenced Druids.

Have you ever legitimately read anything Crowley has written? Not trying to be insulting. But I have met many people in my life that write off anything the man ever said due to the reputation he gained in the media during his life time.

proudhindu
22 February 2010, 05:31 AM
Have you ever legitimately read anything Crowley has written? Not trying to be insulting. But I have met many people in my life that write off anything the man ever said due to the reputation he gained in the media during his life time.

That is a good question, Einherjar.It appears there is radical universalism at play here.

To quote one poster above

"A sadhak is not allowed to remain in ambiguity, neither rejecting nor accepting anything and he must not tolerate every kind of delusion under the umbrella of Hinduism, but discriminate."

Unfortunately this forum doesn't discriminate knowledge and focusses on style rather than substance to appease everybody to such an extent that one wonders it is really a hindu dharma forum.

There are lot of media savvy 'Sadhaks ' who suffer delusions and hormonal problems and get confused with enlightenment and opeing of third eye and what not.

atanu
22 February 2010, 07:45 AM
------
Active Unconscious

By allowing the Active Unconscious to come forward and be witnessed in a neutral way, the thought patterns colored with intense attraction and aversion gradually weaken, allowing a greater peace and freedom of mind. This is one of the most direct ways to deal with the purifying, centering, or balancing of troublesome thoughts. However, few go beyond the boundary between the Active Unconscious and the Latent Unconscious. The Active Unconscious has alluring visions and sounds. Only the most dedicated Yogis are willing to completely transcend sensory experience of both external and internal objects, and to pursue the formless Latent level out of which the Active arises.

namaste mahahrada,

Please do not mind my butting in.

If witnessing the white light is hallucination, then terms such as active consciousness or latent consciousness should also be similar, since there is only consciousness and thoughts arising from that.

We may recognise for benefit of all that different expressions are used in space and time to explain a same idea.

Below, I will put in another perspective that may be simpler for some to understand or may be more difficult but it is likely that will be rubbished as Neo. But the GOAL is truly UNIVERSAL.

As of now, the Mind (the Servant) has carried away the Master (jivaAtman-the self), similar to the situation when a car goes berserk and causes injury or death to the driver. A good master-driver has full control of the car. Meditation, in stages, puts back the control where it should be -- in the silent, thoughtless self -- wherefrom the thoughts (called active consciousness by your citation) arises. The self (jivAtman), when in full control of thoughts/mind is the Self (Shiva). But in cases, when the master goes following after various visions (or theories), he is again giving up the control to the servant. I agree to your teaching fully, yet, I use a different expression to explain that.

In Gita, Lord teaches Arjuna to gradually and repeatedly bring back the flighty mind. The goal is simple -- to regain the control over turbulent thought making process (And that will not happen without knowing the Master).

Devotee has said elsewhere that Realisation may happen in a trice or may not happen over many incarnations. That is true, since, we do not know whether the sadhaka is wet coal or gasoline. Only a Guru can know. i am not not capable of judging the pakva (ripeness) of different sadhakas. Thus, I do not agree to the blanket use of the term Neo Advaita. I know, EM has similar view as you on this yet you two differ bitterly and that is expected.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

MahaHrada
22 February 2010, 09:01 AM
namaste mahahrada,

Please do not mind my butting in.

If witnessing the white light is hallucination, then terms such as active consciousness or latent consciousness should also be similar, since there is only consciousness and thoughts arising from that.

We may recognise for benefit of all that different expressions are used in space and time to explain a same idea.

Below, I will put in another perspective that may be simpler for some to understand or may be more difficult but it is likely that will be rubbished as Neo. But the GOAL is truly UNIVERSAL.

As of now, the Mind (the Servant) has carried away the Master (jivaAtman-the self), similar to the situation when a car goes berserk and causes injury or death to the driver. A good master-driver has full control of the car. Meditation, in stages, puts back the control where it should be -- in the silent, thoughtless self -- wherefrom the thoughts (called active consciousness by your citation) arises. The self (jivAtman), when in full control of thoughts/mind is the Self (Shiva). But in cases, when the master goes following after various visions (or theories), he is again giving up the control to the servant. I agree to your teaching fully, yet, I use a different expression to explain that.

In Gita, Lord teaches Arjuna to gradually and repeatedly bring back the flighty mind. The goal is simple -- to regain the control over turbulent thought making process (And that will not happen without knowing the Master).

Devotee has said elsewhere that Realisation may happen in a trice or may not happen over many incarnations. That is true, since, we do not know whether the sadhaka is wet coal or gasoline. Only a Guru can know. i am not not capable of judging the pakva (ripeness) of different sadhakas. Thus, I do not agree to the blanket use of the term Neo Advaita. I know, EM has similar view as you on this yet you two differ bitterly and that is expected.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

I do not understand where the problem is, i gave an advice according to my knowledge and abilities, which was especially directed to adress the experience the op encountered.

I am convinced enough of my own expertise to clearly state what i know without any ambiguity. I still think that this was a good advice based on both my experiental knowledge of meditation and the ability to judge what happened to the op and shastric evidence.

If others disagree with this they are free to give other answers, apparently some people abstracted from the topic at hand and speculated about their own ideas and what they think my postings implied or what i could have meant, rather than consulting my original postings.

Neo advaita is also known in the west as Satsang movement and followers of this neo advaita become enlightened by thousands just by doing nothing but attending satsangs of others that have become enlightened by attending other peoples satsangs. Thats why i say Enlightenment has become cheap, it has become democratic so to say, everybody can achieve it just by listening to somebody talk about it.
This is spreading like wildfire, just type satsang in youtube.com and you can watch yourself and judge whether this has anything in common with bharata dharma.
If we do not use discrimination and judgement of what is truth and what is illusion we cannot progress.

coolbodhi
22 February 2010, 01:21 PM
I do not understand the problem either. You gave good advice to the op. Any tingling sensation in arms, legs or white lights etc. after a few sessions of closed eyes is not enlightenment.

Is enlightenment like cooking instant rice? Open the package, add water, cook for two minutes and you are enlightened.



I do not understand where the problem is, i gave an advice according to my knowledge and abilities, which was especially directed to adress the experience the op encountered.




I am convinced enough of my own expertise to clearly state what i know without any ambiguity. I still think that this was a good advice based on both my experiental knowledge of meditation and the ability to judge what happened to the op and shastric evidence.


I agree.



Neo advaita is also known in the west as Satsang movement and followers of this neo advaita become enlightened by thousands just by doing nothing but attending satsangs of others that have become enlightened by attending other peoples satsangs. Thats why i say Enlightenment has become cheap, it has become democratic so to say, everybody can achieve it just by listening to somebody talk about it.
This is spreading like wildfire, just type satsang in youtube.com and you can watch yourself and judge whether this has anything in common with bharata dharma.


I am not indian and just a westerner like you. I do not know much about neo advaita but does not advaita teach "neti neti"?



If we do not use discrimination and judgement of what is truth and what is illusion we cannot progress.

"Not this not this", sounds like a good use of discrimation and judgement to me.

atanu
22 February 2010, 10:38 PM
I do not understand where the problem is, i gave an advice according to my knowledge and abilities, which was especially directed to adress the experience the op encountered.

Namaste Mahahrada,

I agree. I see no problem.

Om Namah Shivaya

MahaHrada
23 February 2010, 07:10 AM
I do not understand the problem either. You gave good advice to the op. Any tingling sensation in arms, legs or white lights etc. after a few sessions of closed eyes is not enlightenment.

Is enlightenment like cooking instant rice? Open the package, add water, cook for two minutes and you are enlightened.I am not indian and just a westerner like you. I do not know much about neo advaita but does not advaita teach "neti neti"?


"Not this not this", sounds like a good use of discrimation and judgement to me.

Yes of course Advaita vedanta teaches discrimination, as far as i have understood it is one of the main pillars of the darshana, that why the western variant is called neo-advaita rather than advaita since it is quite independent.

I think it is important to be aware that classical traditional Hinduism is distinct from modern neo-hinduism. This is important for the adherents of both belief systems.

When in one belief system enlightement can be achieved within a few hours of satsang and contact with one of the several thousands of enlightenend western satsang masters, and in classical bharata dharma, whether nastika or astika, all the sages needed decades of solitary retreat and meditation, their experiences can not be the same.

I do not even go as far as to say that the fast enlightenement experience as such must be harmful or wrong, i have so little interest in it that i don´t bother to have any opinion about it, but it certainly cannot be the same state as that what is reached by the Rishis and Yogis of Bharata.

Simply because they certainly are sages and wise, if there is a way to achieve moksha by doing nothing but listening to boring lectures, they would have found it out and applied it themselves, instead of spending decades doing Japa, Yagynas,Tapas and Yoga.

Knowledge that these new age western belief systems exist is important for the Hindu since only then he can choose to protect his traditional dharma against this influence. Thats why i am mentioning the differences. Especially tantra shastra and Kundalini or laya yoga has become so very deformend and is so much unlike the original indian tradition, in its western appropriations, that in my experience it has become impossible to even discuss these matters with westerners.

satay
23 February 2010, 09:32 AM
Admin Note

namaste atanu,

The OP asked a question. Maha gave an answer. You agree with it and see no problem. So I will assume that there is no 'hidden' personal problem lingering anywhere.

I will edit some of your post because it has nothing to do with the thread.

Thanks,


Namaste Mahahrada,

I agree. I see no problem.



So are all convinced. I must say that I find EM 's posts most balanced in stating his POV without hurting anyone, though his POV and yours are similar.



I see no problem in this either, for several reasons:

1. It is natural that not all physics students will become Einstein. Shri Krishna teaches that hardly one in many thousands succeed.

2. It is better to discuss Advaita than to discuss divisive issues of fundamentalism arising out of narrow Nationalism, Communism, Caste, Religion etc. etc.

2. I am not capable of judging pakva (ripeness) of the cited satsangh members. Who is to judge as to who is a perfect Hindu? Hinduism gives premium to non-hurting speech.
--------------------------

However, I do have a question for you. You reminded me once of the secret teaching of Kaula -- of the wish fulfilling tree. I wonder why that knowledge is not brought into effect.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
23 February 2010, 09:55 AM
Admin Note

namaste atanu,

The OP asked a question. Maha gave an answer. You agree with it and see no problem. So I will assume that there is no 'hidden' personal problem lingering anywhere.

I will edit some of your post because it has nothing to do with the thread.

Thanks,

Namaste satay,

I thought that I was asked something in the following passage:


Neo advaita is also known in the west as Satsang movement and followers of this neo advaita become enlightened by thousands just by doing nothing but attending satsangs of others that have become enlightened by attending other peoples satsangs. Thats why i say Enlightenment has become cheap, it has become democratic so to say, everybody can achieve it just by listening to somebody talk about it.
This is spreading like wildfire, just type satsang in youtube.com and you can watch yourself and judge whether this has anything in common with bharata dharma.

Thanks

Om namah Shivaya

satay
23 February 2010, 10:01 AM
namaskar,

Please start a new thread on that new topic.


Namaste satay,

I thought that I was asked something in the following passage:



Thanks

Om namah Shivaya

soham3
23 February 2010, 10:19 AM
My experience :-

(1) One is a loser if one tries to seek short-cuts and avoid making efforts, and wants to escape from paying genuine price for one's spiritual evolution. No pain, no gain.

(2) Instead of your seeking the results, let the results seek you.

(3) With a firm conviction that the Truth is inside you, meditate with the eyes closed. Attitude of contentment gives peace.

Einherjar
01 March 2010, 11:33 AM
So, I had another interesting experience meditating last night... I actually managed to attain at least some form of a real trance state (I think?). It was kind of strange, but not unpleasant.

I got to a point in my meditation where, instead of seeing the normal ebb and flow of colors and various hallucinatory objects, suddenly it was almost like my vision cleared? My eyes were closed, yet my entire field of vision was just like a scene of grey. Everything was completely still.

Strangely though I felt my heart rate increase quite a bit at this point, and I'm not sure why since I was under the impression that the heart rate lowers in meditative states?

Anyway, just thought I'd share.