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ScottMalaysia
17 February 2010, 09:14 PM
My question is addressed to those who were brought up in another religion or no religion and then later converted to Hinduism, particularly those who are not married to an Indian spouse who was raised a religious Hindu and actively practices the Hindu religion now as an adult.

Did you find it hard to learn how to perform all the Hindu rituals and celebrate all the festivals? I mean things like setting up a puja room/altar, performing puja and/or arati, performing other acts of worship, celebrating festivals, following a temple service in an Indian language. How did you learn to do these things? There are no books or Web sites (that I know about, anyway) that give you detailed step-by-step instructions on how to do these things.

I feel like I've just got so much to learn. My wife's family aren't religious and she wasn't brought up practicing the Hindu religion much, unlike her cousins on her mother's side. As a result, she knows next to nothing about the things mentioned above, especially the temple service as our local temple service is in Gujarati, which she doesn't speak. I've been thinking that i'm going to have to make friends with the temple devotees so that when we get our own place to live (we're staying with my mother at the moment), I'll be able to do all the appropriate rituals.

Onkara
18 February 2010, 04:23 AM
Hi Scott
I am glad you raise this as I have reflected on this also as I feel overwhelmed by having so much to learn. I fit the description you describe above. My introduction to Sanatana Dharma was through Advaita Vedanta. From fate more than conscious choice. I am trying to understand bhakti, rituals and festivals however I find it more varied than Vedanta. In fact, I find I turn to the Upanishad when I feel my study of bhakti is taking a tangent. The nearest Hindu temple (which is not ISKON) is many hours from my home and I do not know a single Hindu (or Indian) living locally.

My approach has been to purchase the Srimad Bhagavatam, Mahabharata and many other scriptures and books and to read when time permits. The interenet is useful but again it is opinion and never as thorough as a book. My impression is the heart of Sanatana Dharma Bhakti lies in the Puranas etc as much as in the Vedas. I am sure this could lead to debate, but this is an impression I share. My priority is Sanskrit, which I feel would be very rewarding but I am struggling with it.

I hope some more senior members can offer guidance. :)

ScottMalaysia
18 February 2010, 06:24 AM
Hi Scott
I am glad you raise this as I have reflected on this also as I feel overwhelmed by having so much to learn. I fit the description you describe above. My introduction to Sanatana Dharma was through Advaita Vedanta. From fate more than conscious choice. I am trying to understand bhakti, rituals and festivals however I find it more varied than Vedanta. In fact, I find I turn to the Upanishad when I feel my study of bhakti is taking a tangent. The nearest Hindu temple (which is not ISKON) is many hours from my home and I do not know a single Hindu (or Indian) living locally.

My approach has been to purchase the Srimad Bhagavatam, Mahabharata and many other scriptures and books and to read when time permits. The interenet is useful but again it is opinion and never as thorough as a book. My impression is the heart of Sanatana Dharma Bhakti lies in the Puranas etc as much as in the Vedas. I am sure this could lead to debate, but this is an impression I share. My priority is Sanskrit, which I feel would be very rewarding but I am struggling with it.

I hope some more senior members can offer guidance. :)



Yes, Hinduism can never totally be learned from books. Even the Puranas don't explain how to do all the rituals and practice the religion. The Vedas do describe various rituals, but these are not generally performed today (with the exception of the Agnihotra or fire sacrifice).

But you do need to find some Hindus and talk to them. Even if you read all 18 Puranas, you'll still probably have no idea about Indian culture and the way that Hinduism is practiced today. Is there any way you could move to a city where there are more Hindus, and a temple?

Eastern Mind
18 February 2010, 07:22 AM
Vannakkam Scott: As you know, I probably fit the category. My official conversion and change of name was in 1980. I was consciously Hindu in mind about 5 years before that, and Hindu by soul since birth in this lifetime, and before.

Here are some of my thoughts. You can disagree if you wish. Obviously.

It is impossible to learn Hinduism as a whole. In fact, I feel it would be unwise to attempt it even. As you know from watching discussions here, there are differing views on many levels. This can and does lead to confusion. The diversity is such that there is dual versus non-dual, Saiva vs Vaishnava, and the list goes on. I'm sure you know what I speak of. It would be like owning 10 houses and trying to establish a 'home' in each of them. Ut is best to find a home.

I came from total non-religion. I read a bit, but not a lot about some faiths. I went to a Christmas service and discovered that wasn't for me. I went to an ISKCON temple. I read some mystical stuff. Again .. not much.

Then, fortunately for me, I met my Guru. I was about 20. From then it was obvious for me. Perhaps I was just lucky, or had that karma.

To narrow the teachings and reduce confusion, this is what He has always advised. Shop around as you would for clothes. Don't try to buy the whole store. Find the shirt you like. This does not mean you dislike all the other shirts in the store.

Once you find that sampradaya that makes sense to you, stick with it, and stop reading all the other stuff. This then narrows your view in a healthy way, and makes it far less in size ... manageable for the mind. It doesn't mean you disrespect other views. In fact, its the the contrary, because somewhere within there is a respect for all of humanity, regardless of which religion, language, race, gender etc.

There is no need to learn everything. Puja is in the heart, in the devotion, not in correct pronunciation, or elaborate ritual. Philosophy can be simple or complex, whichever you choose to make it. I've chosen to make it simple. Mostly by limiting what I read. Does this limit my ability to have intellectual discussions on places like HDF? Yes, of course it does. Do I care? No, I don't, because within my sampradaya, God is not the intellect.

So If I were you, and I'm not, I'd take a break from the thinking part, perhaps even all of it, as the intellect is a barrier. I'd just pray for a breakthrough. It seems to me, but I may be wrong, that you're torn between your wife's version of Hinduism, versus your own introduction, which was ISKCON, I believe. Then in about 3 months or so, maybe more, you may get the gut reaction (intuition) that just feels right. Then you'll know your sampradaya, and can go dig into that.

Hope this was of some help.

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
18 February 2010, 08:31 AM
Thanks for reply Scott. :)

Eastern Mind ji, offers sound advice. :)

ScottMalaysia
18 February 2010, 04:24 PM
To narrow the teachings and reduce confusion, this is what He has always advised. Shop around as you would for clothes. Don't try to buy the whole store. Find the shirt you like. This does not mean you dislike all the other shirts in the store.

Once you find that sampradaya that makes sense to you, stick with it, and stop reading all the other stuff. This then narrows your view in a healthy way, and makes it far less in size ... manageable for the mind. It doesn't mean you disrespect other views. In fact, its the the contrary, because somewhere within there is a respect for all of humanity, regardless of which religion, language, race, gender etc.

Good advice, however, many Hindus don't follow a sect or a sampradaya at all. I worship the Holy Mother Durga as my Ishta Devata, but I'm not a Shakta. When we get our own place I'll probably put pictures of Krishna and Rama on the altar, and I'm not a Vaishnava. Most born Hindus aren't sectarian at all.

I'm not sure if there are any followers of Subramuniyaswami in New Zealand. That being said, I disagree with him on several points, but it'd be interesting to talk to his devotees.


There is no need to learn everything. Puja is in the heart, in the devotion, not in correct pronunciation, or elaborate ritual.

But there are still proper ways of doing puja. The one from Himalayan Academy is the South Indian one. I'll ask someone from my temple how they do it (Gujarati style)


So If I were you, and I'm not, I'd take a break from the thinking part, perhaps even all of it, as the intellect is a barrier. I'd just pray for a breakthrough. It seems to me, but I may be wrong, that you're torn between your wife's version of Hinduism, versus your own introduction, which was ISKCON, I believe. Then in about 3 months or so, maybe more, you may get the gut reaction (intuition) that just feels right. Then you'll know your sampradaya, and can go dig into that.

Yes, my own introduction was ISKCON, and this is closer to the temple that we go to now. My wife's religious environment (when her parents took her to the temple) is South Indian Saivism (Murugan being predominant in Malaysia). While I don't agree with a lot of ISKCON's teachings and practices (many of which seem to be to be intended for sannyasis), I do have to say that they explain things in English and have English translations of their bhajans. Neither the temple I go to now or any of the South Indian ones did that.

My wife and I still haven't visited the South Indian temple. I was going to go for Thaipusam, but I got sick right before the festival. I'd then planned to attend Maha Shivaratri there, but the priest from the local temple invited me to their service, which I went to.

Thanks for your advice.

shian
18 February 2010, 10:29 PM
Namaste,

every ceremony, i will pray for my sister
everday in my sadhana, i also visualize my sister receive light blessing from Baghavati
i also do special puja in my own altar to her

why ?

i will use the power of sadhana , let her take refuge in sanatana Dharma. leave adharmic teaching.

this is very effective

i already succses to change others (in family , because my family originaly is christian family) to refuge in Sanantana Dharma by power of sadhana

now i must do it for my sister

you can do it by your self, i beliefe it, Baghavati is infinte compassion, SHE will not let others use life to slander Dharma.

Off course if they free to choose abrahamic religion,
but what about slander the Dharma ?
what about the bad karma they create from slander the Dharma ?

off course we must harmony with them in daily life
but in your prayer, see them in adhamic religion, build a compassion for them, and help them !
Baghavan is use your power of mind as HIS hand to saving them from wrong way.

do it now.

Onkara
19 February 2010, 03:11 AM
many Hindus don't follow a sect or a sampradaya at all. I worship the Holy Mother Durga as my Ishta Devata, but I'm not a Shakta.

But there are still proper ways of doing puja. The one from Himalayan Academy is the South Indian one. I'll ask someone from my temple how they do it (Gujarati style)

Hi Scott
Do you find Puja is completely satisfying? I ask as I am interested in if puja can be performed without any aim for gain, simply out of love/bliss? I am sure the answer is "of course, why not?" but the reason I ask is I am not clear on if puja changes or if there is more to it? I am interested in para-bhakti, worship for the sake of worship itself.

Does Lakshmi and Saraswati represent Durga? Can Lakshmi be approached without a desire for material gain?

Who is Gayatri, the goddess? There is little information on her (only the mantra). Any ideas please?

What about chanting, kirtan, meditiation? Do these compliament puja in your experience and can they be done with the ishta deva in mind?

Language is a barrier, it is a barrier to Sikhism too imho. The only way around that is to invest time in learning it. That requires a focus and commitment (as I am sure you know) and I think this is why Eastern Mind's advice is helpful for me i.e. to keep to one track and put the rest to one side.

I appreciate my questions could be answered with "there is no fixed path in Sanatana Dharma" but I add these as I would like to know if there is more than this to it. I also wonder if this attitude to jump in and do what you wish is one of the concerns that the traditionalist feel lead to deteriation of Sanatana Dharma tradition, so would like to avoid it even if my questions come across simple or lacking depth.

MahaHrada
19 February 2010, 04:41 AM
Hi Scott
Do you find Puja is completely satisfying? I ask as I am interested in if puja can be performed without any aim for gain,

Actually the general idea of simple daily puja is not about gaining something but is based on the idea that when we are born we already are in a situation of a debtor, because we owe our life to the acts of Devas, Pitris (our ancestors) and the Rishis (Sages). The debt to Gods and ancestors is of course universally true for everyone that is embodied.

The debt towards the Rishis is because they taught the Dharma so it would only refer to Hindus.

By daily ritual acts we are therefore first of all only fulfilling a duty, repaying a debt, so the nitya karmas (continual rites) are not supposed to bring us any immediate gain, except that by fulfilling our duty we fulfill the correct social function and are not entropic.

So it is not a special good act to do these general duties but an obstruction for the cosmic order when we are omitting them. Sadhana and upasana for a spiritual or other purposes is another subject, usually if you have received a mantra for a special devata the regular puja is also a duty and is not for gaining anything. Homas or Prayogas done for a special purpose are only optional and when in need but not a must.

ScottMalaysia
20 February 2010, 04:44 AM
Hi Scott
Do you find Puja is completely satisfying? I ask as I am interested in if puja can be performed without any aim for gain, simply out of love/bliss? I am sure the answer is "of course, why not?" but the reason I ask is I am not clear on if puja changes or if there is more to it? I am interested in para-bhakti, worship for the sake of worship itself.

I do not currently perform puja as I am living with my mother and don't have a proper shrine or the equipment.


Does Lakshmi and Saraswati represent Durga? Can Lakshmi be approached without a desire for material gain?
Most Saivites and followers of Advaita Vedanta would say that Durga, Lakshmi and Saraswati are just different forms of the same Goddess. Vaishnavas would disagree, saying that Durga and Saraswati are servants of Vishnu/Krishna, and His consort is Lakshmi/Radharani. Gaudiya Vaishnavas believe that Lakshmi is an expansion of Radharani, most other Vaishnavas believe the opposite - that Radharani is an expansion of Lakshmi.


What about chanting, kirtan, meditiation? Do these compliament puja in your experience and can they be done with the ishta deva in mind?Yes, they complement puja. You can chant mantras and bhajans to your chosen deity.


Language is a barrier, it is a barrier to Sikhism too imho. The only way around that is to invest time in learning it. That requires a focus and commitment (as I am sure you know) and I think this is why Eastern Mind's advice is helpful for me i.e. to keep to one track and put the rest to one side.Yes, that is true. However, learning a language is not an easy task. It takes many years to get to a level where you can comfortably converse with native speakers and understand them. I studied French for seven years - four at high school and three at university - and I still can't understand everything in French movies or TV broadcasts. I can't read French as easily as English. When you take into account that Indian languages like Gujarati, Tamil and Hindi are written with different alphabets, that makes it much harder.


I appreciate my questions could be answered with "there is no fixed path in Sanatana Dharma" but I add these as I would like to know if there is more than this to it. I also wonder if this attitude to jump in and do what you wish is one of the concerns that the traditionalist feel lead to deteriation of Sanatana Dharma tradition, so would like to avoid it even if my questions come across simple or lacking depth.The Bhagavad-Gita states:

Whatever form any devotee with faith wishes to worship, I make that faith of his steady. (Bhagavad-Gita 7:21)

Swami Chidbhavananda comments on this verse as follows:

"Children are very particular to have sweetmeats shaped to their likings, such as a cow, a horse or an elephant. The confectioner supplies them sweets according to their tastes. The way of the Lord is more generous than that. His grace descends suited to the attainment of individuals. The worship of the little gods is not altogether erroneous or sinful as some theologians would have it. It is but a stepping stone to the adoration of the Almighty. The Lord therefore provides the ways and means for the ordinary people to evolve stage by stage in their paths of devotion".

Eastern Mind
21 February 2010, 09:22 AM
Hi Scott
Do you find Puja is completely satisfying? I ask as I am interested in if puja can be performed without any aim for gain, simply out of love/bliss? I am sure the answer is "of course, why not?" but the reason I ask is I am not clear on if puja changes or if there is more to it? I am interested in para-bhakti, worship for the sake of worship itself.


Vannakam Snip: As you might have guessed, this would be my interpretation. There would be a great variety of what is considered traditional. I know one man here who does uninterrupted daily puja each evening for 3 hours. Others do none at all. Some simply light a lamp. Then it varies according to time available, ethnocentric view, etc etc. I think one problem is that if you get yourself convinced it is necessary to do so much, such as half hour etc., then if you have remnants of western thinking, guilt sets in when you miss it. Guilt is not healthy. Lets take Scottji's current circumstance. Because of the situation, right now he is doing no daily puja. Yet I doubt if it is all that troubling to him. For some it would be troubling. "A commitment is a commitment" as they say. But I think for sanity's sake, it is best not to overcommit, and be a bit relaxed about it. Its the effort that counts, IMO, and it is important to do something.

Aum Namasivaya

MananAtma
25 February 2010, 01:11 AM
Hi Scott,
I'm jumping in here a little late but thought my own experience might help. At first I found it all very over whelming, I was scared I was going to bow wrong and insult the entire temple. To make matters worse, I don't speak the language(I have a Hindi course and am trying to learn) and I'm the only big pale guy in the room.

Luckily the temple I go to is very friendly, at least they were once they realized I wasn't there for a college paper and I really wanted to learn. Also on my side was that studying comparative religion, mythology and anthropology had been my favorite hobby for almost 30 years(31 now). The temple teachers realized very quickly that I understood the philosophies behind Hinduism, infact on my 3rd visit I was told that I probably understood Hinduism better than most of the members of the temple.

The teachers, as well as the priests(who could not speak english) went out of thier way to make me feel comfortable. The teachers kept telling me to just sit back and watch what everyone else does, and if I see something that feels right, do that. It finally hit home when one of them told me "there is no wrong way to worship God". Once that sank in, I found my place.

I am now a Shiavist, my Ishta-devata is Ganesha. I practice Bhakti Yoga and Japa. I have a small shrine in my living room where I do a very abbreviated puja. Abbreviated because complicated rituals just seem like a lot of pomp and ceremony and have no heart, so I only do what I feel is right. Ganesha because he came to me in dreams and visions.

Looking back on my journey, I do feel we Hindu's need to find a way to make it easier for outsiders to learn about this amazing path. Mine was easy because of my desire to find truth and meaning, and how long I had been at it. But I have met many westerners who are seeking the same things, but have not studied as I have, and are very confused.

Short answer, it is hard, but it is worth it, and there is a lot to learn, but still, worth it. I agree with EM, find the parts that speak to you and stick to them to find your center.

You have an advantage, you have at least been raised around Hinduism, if not in it, and you are familiar with the language and culture. If a dumb old westerner like me can find his way, you can also.Trust your heart, do what feels rights, accept that you will make mistakes, and know "there is no wrong way to worship God".

Oh, and listen to EM, he seems to really know his stuff.

Shanti,
Roy

Jivattatva
04 March 2010, 04:03 AM
Namaste


In Gaudiya Vaishnavism, puja is a sadhana (devotional practice) in the realm of vaidhi bhakti, based on rituals and injunctions of the shastras (scriptures). We do pujas to do service for the Lord which main goal is to remember the Lord. Puja includes offering something to the Lord, eg. foodstuff, flowers, leaves, incence, lamps etc.

Of course puja includes mantra and for that reason we need someone to give or impart to us the mantra, including the pronunciation.

However, in our practice the aim of all activities in the realm of ritual is to develop our bhava (emotional sentiment) for the lord in which the final aim is to develop our prema love for the Lord. Prema is that state where relationship with the Lord is spontaneous and ecstatic. In that state we see and feel the Lord in every way. And the cause for that relationship is nothing but lobha or greed for that relationship. This is what we call raganuga bhakti -- spontaneous loving devotion to the Lord. Raganuga bhakti includes smaranam or meditation. It goes without saying that is not easy to attain prema. But that is the pinnacle of the goal in GVism.


On the personal front, I dont really do "puja" everyday. And when I do its very simple -- offering flowers or incence and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. But Gvs do japa meditation every single day.

We also do offer all the time our food to the Lord at the altar reciting a mantra before eating. If that is not possible through the mind.