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Sudarshan
02 September 2006, 11:36 AM
Too much debate goes on this topic.

I want to ask:

Can I go to an Islamic nation and build a temple of Vishnu there?

Then, every morning at 5 AM, can I setup a loud speaker to sing loudly - "There is no God but Vishnu, and Sri Ramanuja is his messenger" .

Are these accepted in an Islamic state? The answers should help us decide how tolerant Islamic laws are....(inspite of their various pleas and citations from the quran)

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
02 September 2006, 06:13 PM
Obviously in most of these Islamic states if not all of them you cannot do what you described. I would consider that intolerant myself because regardless of who is the majority and who is the minority it is hypocritical to allow one group's views blasted into everyone's ears and at the same time silence any other views even if they still somewhat agree. I don't know if there is anything in the Qur'an about this issue but it is obviously an example of religious discrimination even if it isn't sanctioned by the religion itself.

I believe there has to be a balance between freedom and tolerance. In other words, two opposing religions should have equal rights to exist and have people practice them as long as they aren't infringing on each other's rights to practice.

Sudarshan
03 September 2006, 05:19 AM
Thank you BYS. I hope we can remain friends...

Muslims always show some evidence that there is no compulsion in religion, but they cant deny that a non-muslim can't practice his religion in a muslim dominated area.

A non muslim is not allowed to build his place of worship, and may have to do it at home only.(if that is allowed)

Distribution of scriptures such as Bhagaad Gita to others in Islamic nations is punishable, while muslims themselves are not subjected to this treatment anywhere else in the world. You can see copies of Quran being sold in shops in India and everywhere, but the same of Bhagavad Gita is not allowed in Islamc nations non muslim cannot speak of his religion in public, and he cannot even say "Allah does not exist" without the risk of getting killed. This is ridiculous religeous discrimination. Islam may not compel people into accepting it by force( I think they use force also), but indirectly, slowly and steadily, everyone will be converted due to secondary treatment.

There are no nations in the world which have a 50-70% percent muslim population and a 30-50% non muslim population, why? There will either be very few muslims( less than 20% who will be forced to accept the majority but they keeep fighting), or there will be overwhelming majority( close to 100%). This is because Islam forces people into submission. It should be clear that if muslims reach a 30-40% majority in India, we are in for a partition or a civil war again - most Hindus have no doubt this.

Sanjeev
03 September 2006, 10:38 AM
Namaste

as said above, it can't be another religion in a muslim land if the majority is muslim:


It is true that Islamic law, the Sharia, allows Jews and Christians to practice their religious beliefs in an Islamic state; however, other religions are not accorded the same privilege: while Islamic states can according to the Sharia make "a formal agreement of protection" with Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, "such an agreement may not be effected with those who are idol worshippers," that is, Hindus, Buddhists, and others.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5502

In fact, the Sharia dictates that such a "protection" agreement between Muslim rulers and Jewish and Christian subjects "is only valid when the subject peoples: follow the rules of Islam .....and pay the non-Muslim poll tax

but in the same time, the saudi arabia has decided that :


All religions other than Islam are heresy and error. Any place designated for worship other than [that of] Islam is a place of heresy and error
http://www.aina.org/news/2006033195801.htm

so, may the muslim law never rule, all the world !!!

Ablaze
04 September 2006, 10:06 AM
It should be clear that if muslims reach a 30-40% majority in India, we are in for a partition or a civil war again - most Hindus have no doubt this.

Namaste Sudarshan,

Good to see you posting again.

Are a lot of Indians converting to Islam right now? or is the growth mainly do to Muslim families having more kids than Hindu families? I find Islam's percentage increase in India to be very disconcerting, for all the obvious reasons.

I am always amazed that any Hindu would convert to Christianity or Islam; 2 religions which preach eternal damnation for all their Hindu relatives and friends.

I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour". This is the fearful mindset that follows the acceptance of Orthodox Christian (Gnostic Christianity is not like this) and Muslim teaching.

When an Indian converts to Islam, they must think that all their Hindu ancestors are damned and their still living relatives are soon to be damned by Allah, unless they too convert. This is why in Muslim countries they are so adamant about not letting other religions gain a foothold, they believe these religions are from "Satan" to lead souls to an eternal hell. The fear of eternal damnation and "God's wrath" controls the mindset in these nations. I'm sure you know it's fear of God and heavy indoctrination, do to avidya, that has lead to all this anger and intolerance. :( A Yoda quote comes to mind right now. :Cool:

Sudarshan
04 September 2006, 10:26 AM
Namaste,



Good to see you posting again.


Yeah, I cannot run away. The mod happens to be my friend, though he is strict with his rules.:)



Are a lot of Indians converting to Islam right now? or is the growth mainly do to Muslim families having more kids than Hindu families? I find Islam's percentage increase in India to be very disconcerting, for all the obvious reasons.


Statistically, average Hindu family=3.9, muslim family=5.4. That is what I read somewhere. Current muslim population is around 13% and growing slowly. They will crack the 30% mark in something like 50-100 years.

I dont think a Hindu ever converts to Islam unless by force. Christianity is diferent in this ballgame.




I am always amazed that any Hindu would convert to Christianity or Islam; 2 religions which preach eternal damnation for all their Hindu relatives and friends.


Both also preach that salvation is "easy". You just need to book some tickets. Rural folk can be easily decived into accepting that easy method. While the elite and learned people in other countries discover that both these religions are just myth, these religions change their focus to the illiterate masses where conversions are easier and no questions asked.




I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour". This is the fearful mindset that follows the acceptance of Orthodox Christian (Gnostic Christianity is not like this) and Muslim teaching.

When an Indian converts to Islam, they must think that all their Hindu ancestors are damned and their still living relatives are soon to be damned by Allah, unless they too convert. This is why in Muslim countries they are so adamant about not letting other religions gain a foothold, they believe these religions are from "Satan" to lead souls to an eternal hell. The fear of eternal damnation and "God's wrath" controls the mindset in these nations. I'm sure you know it's fear of God and heavy indoctrination, do to avidya, that has lead to all this anger and intolerance. :( A Yoda quote comes to mind right now. :Cool:

Hmm, yes, in the absence of easy ways of verifying things that are not material, you can say anything and get away. This is not possible in India where there are still many divine people who are capable of creating the beleif element in people. Many such Yogis remain silent perhaps they see this declining Dharma as a part of the divine sport, but if needed be they will be able to instill the true faith. God realized saints are not uncommon in this land even today.

Ultimately Adharmic religions are also part of the divine drama - but that does not mean we are not supposed to oppose them as long as the drama is manifest to us.

Ablaze
04 September 2006, 10:47 AM
Both also preach that salvation is "easy". You just need to book some tickets. Rural folk can be easily decived into accepting that easy method. While the elite and learned people in other countries discover that both these religions are just myth, these religions change their focus to the illiterate masses where conversions are easier and no questions asked.

Yes. It's not surprising that Christianity is experiencing it's largest growth in Poor African countries. We all know the routine, the missionaries come with food, clothes, and "free-Jesus-tickets to heaven".. In Europe, on the other-hand, Christianity has been on the decline for many decades. For one, people there are educated on Christian history, and know full well the ugliness that orthodox dogma has wreaked in Europe.

Sadly in the United States, fundamentalist Christianity is still booming and they are now even trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools. I get 2 or more missionaries to my door every month. Usually Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. I never even open the door anymore, as none seem interested in any dialogue.. they keep coming back though. :rolleyes:

sm78
04 September 2006, 11:48 AM
Namaste Sudarshan,

Good to see you posting again.

Are a lot of Indians converting to Islam right now? or is the growth mainly do to Muslim families having more kids than Hindu families? I find Islam's percentage increase in India to be very disconcerting, for all the obvious reasons.

Islam has traditionally not been very successful at conversion without physically bully. So most of Muslim growth is by more rapid breeding guaranteed by India's psuedo secular laws where Muslims can marry 4 women and have little birth control program.

However conversion happens too!! This happens in areas where muslims have become dominant and many poor hindu residents find out that joining the Islamic faith guarantees safety in a country where the majority religious group is being threatened everyday. To see muslim conversion at work, one needs to visit bordering districts of India with Pakisthan and Bangladesh. One such area is the north western frontier of Gujrat~ the famous run-of kuch. Recently the banned SIMI organization had good sucess in coverting some villages in costal tamil nadu. I have read in reports that new converts are being used to plot terror attacks as they are not easily distingishable. It is fair to assume the Islam doesn't believe in the number game like Christians. They work for total subjugation of others and not gradual.


I am always amazed that any Hindu would convert to Christianity or Islam; 2 religions which preach eternal damnation for all their Hindu relatives and friends.

This is not that surprizing. Only a few Hindus these days understand their own religion. They were living like a christian or a muslim in personal life anyway or worse. But there is a difference between mass-behaviour of a group of hindus (however non-hindu they are in private lifestyle and belief) and a group of muslims or christians. It is this mass-behaviour that makes these conversions in a country like India so alarming. If people had been converting to anything else, there would have been little to bother.

I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour". This is the fearful mindset that follows the acceptance of Orthodox Christian (Gnostic Christianity is not like this) and Muslim teaching.


When an Indian converts to Islam, they must think that all their Hindu ancestors are damned and their still living relatives are soon to be damned by Allah, unless they too convert. This is why in Muslim countries they are so adamant about not letting other religions gain a foothold, they believe these religions are from "Satan" to lead souls to an eternal hell. The fear of eternal damnation and "God's wrath" controls the mindset in these nations. I'm sure you know it's fear of God and heavy indoctrination, do to avidya, that has lead to all this anger and intolerance. :( A Yoda quote comes to mind right now. :Cool:

The Yoda quote is quite valid:Cool:.

It is this aspect of these religions that hindu's need to understand and make other awares of. It is quite easy to get carried away with "equality of all religions" and neglect the difference.

It is more prudent to understand the differences first and see if the differences are reconcilable. Only then can we focus on harmony. No question of harmony etc ever arises when we are dealing with other religions (other than fundamentalist christianity and Islam). A society with a healthy mix of hindus, buddhists, pagans, jains, daoists or wiccans or even jews will never have any problem.

I'm convinced that fundamentalist christianity and Islam will never live in harmony with others. Christianity has been slightly bogged down by the modern pluralist western society. But I don't think it has been a permanent victory. And increasing fundamentalist trend in america is a chilling pointer.
"Mordernity" in the west is solely hanging precariously on the "economic-well being" thread. The day economic properity of the west takes a beating, christianity will jump back in, for majority of the west don't have any other option. Hinduism and Buddhism are only a century old and restricted only to few free-thinkers.

I had a document regarding how US funds for NGO's have been fully diverted towards Church activities in 3rd world countries under the bush regime. If anyone is interested, i'll try to locate it.

Sudarshan
04 September 2006, 01:50 PM
And increasing fundamentalist trend in america is a chilling pointer.
"Mordernity" in the west is solely hanging precariously on the "economic-well being" thread. The day economic properity of the west takes a beating, christianity will jump back in, for majority of the west don't have any other option.


Islam is on the rise in the US. A few months ago I came across a news where a few teenage muslims were arrested (somewhere in the bay area I think) in connection with getting trained for a future take over of USA. That sounded alarming.

USA is a democracy. If muslim population can really increase they could get themselves elected, and may assume great powers. If this becomes part of a terrorist plot the world is in for something. Just imagine a muslim with a mullah mentality becoming the preseident of USA, with all access to the nuclear arsenal.

In a democracy you cannot prevent it from happening if there is significant muslim population. Muslims will declare theocracy the moment they have gathered sufficient strength, there are only few exceptions to this rule. Religions like Islam that are anti democratic must be really banned in democracies to prevent an upstaging of the democracy itself in future. A religion that does not allow the practice of other religions on its home soil has no rights to flourish outside their homes. All muslims must be pointed the exit doors towards Mecca to restore world peace long term.

Znanna
04 September 2006, 02:28 PM
Islam is on the rise in the US. A few months ago I came across a news where a few teenage muslims were arrested (somewhere in the bay area I think) in connection with getting trained for a future take over of USA. That sounded alarming.

USA is a democracy. If muslim population can really increase they could get themselves elected, and may assume great powers. If this becomes part of a terrorist plot the world is in for something. Just imagine a muslim with a mullah mentality becoming the preseident of USA, with all access to the nuclear arsenal.

In a democracy you cannot prevent it from happening if there is significant muslim population. Muslims will declare theocracy the moment they have gathered sufficient strength, there are only few exceptions to this rule. Religions like Islam that are anti democratic must be really banned in democracies to prevent an upstaging of the democracy itself in future. A religion that does not allow the practice of other religions on its home soil has no rights to flourish outside their homes. All muslims must be pointed the exit doors towards Mecca to restore world peace long term.


Unfortunately, there also is a growing contingent of Evangelical Protestants (aka "Christian Fundamentalists") here in the US who express the opinion that the means to avert this potential Muslim theocracy is to return the US to its "Christian roots", I suppose on the notion that a Christian theocracy is better than a Muslim one (cos their God is the right one I suppose).

The huge irony of course, is that they are creating the very evil they wish to avert in doing so.

And, to me, the even larger perversion is that the notion of someone's definition of God is somehow bigger, better, badder than someone else's .. haha. As if definition mattered! God IS. We ARE.

Dwelling on the notions of differences, well, I just don't see how that can ever solve problems, only create more.

/rant


Namaste,
ZN

yajvan
17 September 2006, 08:38 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Hello and Namaste,
with no disrespect to anyone on this post, when Muslim's are shown on TV, it is always associated with violence and little tolerance. This perpetuates the notion of this view of religion as violent. It grooms the every day viewer to form opinions that are not true, yet the ‘drive by media’ shows this day-in and day-out.

Now, my thoughts... all religions ( from religare to tie one back; To whom or what ? to God or Allah, or Vishnu, or Istadeva’s of one belief) are like the leafs of the SAME TREE. The tree is nourished by the same sap. It expresses itself as a leaf, a branch, a flowering bud.

When we tend to discuss this notion of religion, we tend to say ‘my branch or leaf is the right expression of this sap' . It’s the sap that the sages of enlightened vision put their attention on and care to speak... this is the Truth (satyam) the rishi’s and sages and saints and pundits try to get across.

This is beyond religion, karma, sin, or repenting.

All this is verily Brahman.

Sudarshan
18 September 2006, 03:42 AM
Namaste Yajvanji,

Media hype has not been used in this thread.

I have simply asked:

1. Can I go to an Islamic nation and build a temple of Vishnu there?
2. Then, every morning at 5 AM, can I setup a loud speaker to sing loudly - "There is no God but Vishnu, and Sri Ramanuja is his messenger" .

The answers to these questions have nothing to do with media report on Islam. How many muslims will accept to these proposals? Does the koran/hadith support it? This is the main issue. Barring some muslims in India who would have assimilated the secular blood of Hindus, I would not say that Islam respects the practise of non Islamic religions. No public practice of non Islamic religions is allowed under the Shariah Law. A muslim apostate is to be killed under the Islamic law. These are things that most muslims cant deny.

What is happening to the Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh? Why are we getting a never ending stream of Hindu refugees from Bangaldesh? Why there has been too many unnecessary wars between India and Paksitan? Why is a proxy war always going on in Kashmir? Who is the cause of this? Is it some muslims or Islam?

The fact that a non muslim is reduced to a secondary citizen(unable to hold any public or senior office) in an Islamic state cannot be denied even by muslims. Try visiting some major Islamic forums and suggest the equation Vishnu=Allah and Islam~Hinduism? You will probbaly get only some abuses directed at you( as an idolator), and it has been my experience.

No Hindu is using media reports in checking the credibility of Islam. The Islamic history is to well known. Their destroying of Buddhism in Bihar and their massive attempt at wiping out Sanatana Dharma is too well documented in history. It has continued to the present day. Countries with muslims population will have peace only if muslims are too few in number( powerless) or a near full majority( peace has been established by subjugating others).

We dont care what the philosophy of Islam says. Perhaps it has some roots of vedanta philosophy. We are interested only in knowing how far Islam is related to democracy and protects the rights of others. What will happen to India( or even the USA) if the muslims reach a 50% majority? What has history taight us in this regard?

saidevo
18 September 2006, 10:21 AM
Namaste Sudarshan,

You have very well explained the crux of the problem. The question of how a muslim should relate to the general public at large, and their resident nation in particular is left to be decided by Islam and its Shariah Law. This is the major flaw that prevents muslims from co-existing with others peacefully.

If muslims choose to continue with their traditional policy of Islam only and nothing else, there could be one logical solution: Will they be happy if all of them are relocated exclusively in West Asia where they are already a majority? They can form one or more countries there and make the entire area a Dar-il-Islam. But then the UN must ensure that they are not allowed residence in any other non-Islamic country, though the Islamic nations may choose to have trade relationships with other nations. With their fast growing population, as you say, any country whose muslim population touches 50% is doomed!

The idea is remotely Utopian, agree, but I think it's better than having the whole world as Dar-il-Islam! Of course, the world will still have the Christianity to deal with, but I think that wouldn't be so much a problem.

Sudarshan
18 September 2006, 11:38 AM
In my opinion, Islamic theocracy can be countered only by another theocracy. Muslims living outside the middle east do not get a taste of their own medicine, for eg India. We treat muslims as minorities and extend special privileges not even enjoyed by Hindus - an example is the Haj subsidy. Muslims in India do not beleive that non muslims get second rate treatment elsewhere because they do not experience it and do not know the implications.

People like Dr.Zakir Naik are clever enough to know that, but he is more of the fanatic muslim who wants to the establish the Allah's empire in the world.

In all religions, we have three kinds: a liberal, a moderate and an extremist version.

A Hindu extremist can hardly support his idealogy based on scripture and can never shout Jai Sita Rama over the victims he killed.

Similarly, an extremist Christian can hardly show any proof from the love message of Christ, and his claims may be dismissed. There is no doubts that a true Christian is very close to a true Hindu in his beleifs...However extremist muslim can show sufficient authority for his idealogy, and so can the moderates and the liberals, and honestly
Hindus do not know who among them is the real muslim. If we go by Indian history, there is not a shred of evidence of muslims being peaceful and engaged in massacres and forced conversions. Shariah Law is not democratic and no non muslim will accept its authority.

Most muslims in India are probably Hindu like because of constant mingling for years. Most of them do not even know that their ancestors were Hindus forcibly converted at sword point. The forcible conversions have happened as late as 1942 (Moplah rebellion) and Tippu Sultan is known to have done that. So if muslims can forcibly convert Hindus even in periods when they were a minority ( of course conversions happened in areas where they were local majority), what would be the fate of Hindus if they were a 50% all India majority? Muslims will easily reach these numbers due to their high rate of proliferation.( another 100-200 years)

I dont think Hindus can do much at this point but to watch and monitor, but never get decieved by the false propaganda of Islam being a rellgion of peace. That assumption would be suicidal, and will lead to a partiiton of India in future. If necessary, they have to make India a theocracy. Hindu Thoecracy by very definition is secular and not pseudo secularism we have now. Implement rules that prevent muslim population from growing in majority and allow them to survive at the existing 13%.(which is not a threat)

I am least bothered with Christianity because we are assured that Jesus if he existed had nothing to do with violence. All extremist Christians are fakes automatically and they should be charged like that and driven away if they undertake decietful proselytizing. Hindu Theocracy ensures that no such deciet will be allowed.(bible for bread schemes will be punished under law). If somebody wants to become a christian because he was convinced he could realize God that way, he is a great soul, why should Hindus bother with such
genuine conversions? All Hindus should be distributed a copy of the Sermon on the Mount and they should agrressively oppose all pseudo missionaries.( this approach was adopted by both Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda)

Hindus are not likely to convert to Islam for any reason. The only threat therefore will be the birthrate of muslims. This problem cannot be addressed in a pseudo secular India.

yajvan
18 September 2006, 02:45 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
"We treat muslims as minorities and extend special privileges not even enjoyed by Hindus - "

Namaste Sudarshan,

I have read your posts and stuggle with your final analysis or your conclusion. Is it they do not respond in kind to the behaviors others afford them??? Or believe thier way is the only way or ___________?
Your point is correct , you did not entertain the thought of the media... I offered it as a point of reference people can relate to.
I am not challeging here, just trying to get your point...

My point I was interested in offering was the only way most people see the Muslim's is as a group and therefore group behaviour in the media, and that clearly suggests a general intolerace which to me is regretable.

That said, like all people, once you get to know their motivations, you may understand their behavoirs, YET I STILL DO NOT approve of the behaviors I see - that is where I am today. I can't understand the level of violence done at the drop of a hat.

Sudarshan
19 September 2006, 04:03 AM
have read your posts and stuggle with your final analysis or your conclusion. Is it they do not respond in kind to the behaviors others afford them??? Or

believe thier way is the only way or ___________?


Who cares what they believe in? As I mentioned earlier, you cannot know about muslims until they have enough numbers, AT the moment they are a minority, and hence not a threat. It is also possible that centuries of contact with Hindu culture ( after all most muslims in India were originally Hindus), have rendered them harmless in the long run. We can hope this is true but only future will tell the truth.



That said, like all people, once you get to know their motivations, you may understand their behavoirs, YET I STILL DO NOT approve of the behaviors I see -

that is where I am today. I can't understand the level of violence done at the drop of a hat.


I dont think Hindus are engaging in violence at the drop of a hat. If that were the case, there would be massive muslim immigration into Pakistan or Bangladesh. Hindus have more patience than anything else, and are just trying to understand this weird phenomenon known as terrorism that has infected the world. The whole world is trying to figure out who is responsible for this madness. Even the Pope seems to have figured it out now! And look at Islamic reaction over his statements? Christians and Muslims have been calling Hinduism as wicked and Satanic for a long time now and have we reacted so childishly? Why would a muslim feel upset over such reamarks about his religion, when he himself is claiming to be the only truth without any regard for others?

Let us use "All this is Brahman" with caution. That cant be true in the practical world.

saidevo
15 October 2006, 09:36 AM
Islam’s Other Victims: India
By Serge Trifkovic
FrontPageMagazine.com | November 18, 2002



Unlike Germany, which has apologized to its Jewish and Eastern European victims, and Japan, which has at least behaved itself since WWII, and even America, which has gone into paroxysms of guilt over what it did to the infinitely smaller numbers of Red Indians, the Moslem aggressors against India and their successors have not even stopped trying to finish the job they started. To this day, militant Islam sees India as "unfinished business" and it remains high on the agenda of oil-rich Moslem countries such as Saudi Arabia, which are spending millions every year trying to convert Hindus to Islam.


Here is the link for an excellent analysis of the historical track record of Muslims in the name of their religion:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=4649

saidevo
24 February 2007, 07:37 PM
Aavarana and Da Vinci code:A Comparison
by N.S. Rajaram

In reading S.L. Bhyrappa’s latest (Kannada) novel Aavarana, Dan Brown’s best selling novel Da Vinci Code springs naturally to mind. Both have as their subject the suppression of true history and the propagation of a myth by powerful interests. In Da Vinci Code, the villain is the Catholic Church and its modern secret and sinister arm the Opus Dei. In Bhyrappa’s novel, the villain is the collective of politically correct historians and ‘intellectuals’ who out a combination of greed and fear have suppressed the truth about Islam and its record in India . While these intellectuals— called dhimmis by the Egypt-born scholar Bat Ye’or—can boast of no Vatican or Opus Dei, they do form a powerful clique enjoying the support of successive governments who find it politically expedient to appease Islam and conceal the truth about its record and teachings. As this phenomenon is by no means limited to India , Bhyrappa’s Aavarana, and the public reaction to it should be of interest far beyond its intended readership.
...

Be as it may, Da Vinci Code may still be read as an entertaining mystery thriller untroubled by its subversive message— some would say its hidden agenda. He leaves untouched the darker aspects of the medieval history of Europe , especially the horrors of the Albigensian Crusade launched by Pope Innocent III that destroyed the brilliant Provencal civilization in what amounted to genocide of the followers of the Albigensian heresy. In place of this real history Dan Brown gives us a romanticized version of the Knights Templars as preservers of the secret and its possibly fictional successor Priory of Sion as the protectors of the Merovingian royal line. So, for all the heartburn it has caused, Da Vinci Code remains entertaining fiction that causes no great anguish.

Bhyrappa’s Aavarana gives the reader no such respite from historical horrors. It narrates the story of a Rajput prince and his wife captured in the siege of Deoghar and turned into slaves in Muslim courts in the time of the Mogul Emperor Aurangazeb (reigned 1658 – 1707). He later accompanies a Mogul officer and witnesses the destruction of the great Vishwanath Temple in Benares . He witnesses also the horrors inflicted by Moguls on the Hindus and leaves a record of it. Aavarana describes these horrors in vivid detail and understated language, leaving little to the imagination. There is no hyperbole to obscure facts, which makes the horror all the more real.

(http://www.haindavakeralam.org/PageModule.aspx?PageID=3067&SKIN=B)


S.L. Bhyrappa’s latest novel, he said, will be translated into English. In Tamil, a small historical work on the atrocities of Muslims was authored by Madan and published by Anada Viketan, the famous Tamil weekly of a long standing.

bhavanidasa
20 April 2007, 11:38 AM
one of the best sites on the islamic concept of 'tolerance':

http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

The site is unusual because it makes extensive use of a muslim historian called Tabari. He used the work of an earlier historian called , whose work was conveniently lost.
Tabari says that he has left out some of the episodes because they would be too much for the reader to stomach -- but what he does include is enough to dispel the idea that 'islam means peace'.

svasti vo .stu
bhavanidasa

Gotam
27 September 2007, 04:20 PM
In India, thousands of Hindu temples were destroyed and replaced by mosques. What happens when Hindus, far from asking the Muslims to put the Temples back themselves, ask to remove just a few mosques and rebuild one or two of these Temples?

In Egypt, a mosque has been built near every Coptic church. The mosque's minaret is always higher than the church's tower, and christian religious services are always disturbed by the muezzin shouting, nowadays with loudspeakers, the Shahada.

Millions of Arab Christians have fled their countries during the past century. Others have converted to Islam to escape discrimination and violence, often sexual violence. Most Jews from Muslim countries have fled to Israel.

A very serious problem is that the terrorism advocated by the Koran and practised from Islam's beginning onwards by prophet Mohammed and his militant followers often makes Islam's opponents almost as fanatical as Muslims themselves. Hindus, Christians and other non-Muslims face the risk of becoming as bad as the evil they fight against if they focus too much on Muslim hate-speach, injustice and terror. Sadly, here in Europe islamic intolerance, often believed to be marginal but in reality a commonplace Muslim attitude, is mainly attacked by political parties that vaguely remind us of nazi and fascist intolerance, and that sometimes have some links with past fascism. If we become intolerant and narrow-minded ourselves, we loose a few of the most precious values we try to defend against Islam. I think India and perhaps America face the same problem as Europe in this respect, and tolerant Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Atheists should unite to find a tolerant but effective remedy.

Achanda
28 September 2007, 12:07 AM
I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour".

Reminds me of the story of King Radbod of Frisia:


During the second journey of Saint Boniface to Rome, Willibrord tried to convert Radbod, but not succeeding he returned to Fontenelle. It is said that Radbod was nearly baptised, but refused when he was told that he would not be able to find any of his ancestors in Heaven after his death, since he preferred spending eternity in Hell with his pagan ancestors than in Heaven with strangers.



Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh but I have no liking for Islam at all. There's too much bullying in that religion, of themselves and others. I've met a few decent Muslims but they've always been the non-devout types. I'll believe Islam is a "Religion of Peace" when churches, synagogues, and Hindu/Buddhist temples are allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia.

saidevo
25 March 2008, 10:43 PM
Who cares what they believe in? As I mentioned earlier, you cannot know about muslims until they have enough numbers, AT the moment they are a minority, and hence not a threat. It is also possible that centuries of contact with Hindu culture ( after all most muslims in India were originally Hindus), have rendered them harmless in the long run. We can hope this is true but only future will tell the truth.


An illustrative post by Sri Krishna Sastri in Kanchi Forum (http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1865&start=100), proving the efficacy of Sudarshan's observations:

The Progress of Islam in a Society (from 1% to 100%)
http://www.libertynewsforum.com/libertynewsforumcgi/news/YaBB.pl?num=1206397175/3

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attack s and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikist an -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%

100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

"Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, "The Haj"

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat.. http://www.frontline.org.za/books_videos/sti.htm

devotee
26 March 2008, 12:10 AM
Namaste,


Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh but I have no liking for Islam at all. There's too much bullying in that religion, of themselves and others. I've met a few decent Muslims but they've always been the non-devout types.

Islam cannot be tolerant & this intolerance is built-in Q'uran. The entire doctrine is based on irrational fear of an imagined terrible & highly egoist God who can burn people in hell "for eternity" for even minor faults. You are forbidden to say ( with highly inhuman punishment) anything against whatever is writte in Q'uran, so no free discussion is possible in Islam & therefore, the religion is still in the barbaric age when it started.

On the other side there is temptation for those who seek satisfaction of their sensual desire if they agree to become a Muslim. You are promised to receive eternal life in heaven where you get white women ( called Hurs), wine ( which flows in the form of river there) & a garden full of fruit laden trees on the banks of cool rivers full of water. So, you are promised a life in a place ( which is similar to a place in a rain-forest --- a heaven for any desert dweller !) where you are free to indulge in boozing & in sex for eternity after having breakfasts, lunches & dinners of fruits all 365 days in a year !

On one side there is a burning hell for eternity & on the other side there is such a temptation of carnal pleasures for eternity .... any weak heart will choose the latter ... and will agree to do anything as long as it is written in the book. Mohammad Saheb who propagated this religion did this on the strength of sword, killing a number of innocent people in name of this new religion. What can we expect from its followers ?

I agree that there are many good Muslims but that is not because of Islam & Q'uran ... it is in spite of Islam & Q'uran.

I am sorry, if I hurt anyone's sentiments. I would be happy if I can be proved wrong. :)

caleb
22 May 2008, 11:35 PM
Namaste,



Islam cannot be tolerant & this intolerance is built-in Q'uran. The entire doctrine is based on irrational fear of an imagined terrible & highly egoist God who can burn people in hell "for eternity" for even minor faults. You are forbidden to say ( with highly inhuman punishment) anything against whatever is writte in Q'uran, so no free discussion is possible in Islam & therefore, the religion is still in the barbaric age when it started.

On the other side there is temptation for those who seek satisfaction of their sensual desire if they agree to become a Muslim. You are promised to receive eternal life in heaven where you get white women ( called Hurs), wine ( which flows in the form of river there) & a garden full of fruit laden trees on the banks of cool rivers full of water. So, you are promised a life in a place ( which is similar to a place in a rain-forest --- a heaven for any desert dweller !) where you are free to indulge in boozing & in sex for eternity after having breakfasts, lunches & dinners of fruits all 365 days in a year !

On one side there is a burning hell for eternity & on the other side there is such a temptation of carnal pleasures for eternity .... any weak heart will choose the latter ... and will agree to do anything as long as it is written in the book. Mohammad Saheb who propagated this religion did this on the strength of sword, killing a number of innocent people in name of this new religion. What can we expect from its followers ?

I agree that there are many good Muslims but that is not because of Islam & Q'uran ... it is in spite of Islam & Q'uran.

I am sorry, if I hurt anyone's sentiments. I would be happy if I can be proved wrong. :)


The interpretation of Islamic heaven is certainly wrong. Hindus, of all people can understand stories involving gross physical indulgence in a spiritual way--I mean what if I were to read about Krishna's exploits I could think all kinds of things about you guys. But of course anyone can see it really different. The ideas about carnal heaven are really old propaganda and really tired. White women and wine, come on! there is a color code and i don't even think the words mean white, more like pure. And the wine is obvious.

And about Muhammad killing people to convert them, who? He found it hateful but necessary, there was war. And it was forbiddon to threaten someone with death or conversion.

The modern world is different than old times, and modern terrorists are distinctly modern followers and interpretors.