ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

[bhaktajan]

Iskcon may be said to belong to the cult of Lord Caitanya.

But there are and never were other cult leaders allowed in ISKCON.

Novice westerner were destined to fail---and that was the bad news.
The good news is: it was as good as it gets for post-hippie-communue-hopping especially if you were a Hare Krishna.

The past falldowns are par for the course. Many great people come from dysfunctional backgrounds and conversely, as said by Alfalfa, "The bigger they fall, the harder they fall" and "There for the grace of God go I".

All serves the purpose of educating the old & wise; excepting the lazy-minded.

[bhaktajan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jivattatva http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=39916#post39916)
Namaste Satay ji

I dont think calling ISKCON a cult is hostile. ISKCON being a cult is not just MY opinion. It's an opinion by many people who got involved in it. It is also an opinion by some mental health professionals who studied the organization.

Apart from that, even the court of law of the United States of America acknowledged the abnormal way that institution was run. I dont need to open a can of worms. They are all in the public domain if anyone cares to know the truth.

Still, I remember that in my post I even said that "maybe they have improved through the years", so I dont think I was not trying to be balanced.


I think you are conflating something that occured in with Scientology & how it was reported by a tabloid ["Newsweek" ???] in an American Law suit.

The "can of worms" has been offered.

I'd like to do the clean up work here.

There can be complaints form devotees that were there ---but their complaint is only a review of the lack of success achieved by their managers when they were in ISKCON.

If your city's mayor caused the city to go Bankrupt ---That does not constitute a cult.

I will say more to whomever would like to set the record straight for everyone's edification.

[ScottMalaysia]

Many of their activities are cult-like. For example, telling their followers when to get up, making them chant 16 rounds a day, telling them not to associate with non-ISKCONites, forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines, saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite, encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple, and other things.

The way I see it, Chaitanya's movement was intended for sannyasis. The Six Goswamis of Vrindavan were all sannyasis. The above mentioned things would be appropriate for sannyasis living in India. Sannyasis aren't supposed to own anything and they are supposed to eat only prasad, given to them by devotees. Because they have renounced the world, their thoughts are supposed to be wholly spiritual, and they wouldn't read secular books and magazines because they have renounced all that. They do not sleep long, so they get up early, and are constantly engaged in devotional service. They wouldn't extensively associate with those who aren't religious because those sort of people wouldn't be interested in helping a sannyasi.

However, it would not be appropriate for a householder with a wife and family to follow all the rules for sannyasis. He has to make a living and spend time with his family, so doing an extensive amount of chanting wouldn't be practical, nor would the other things mentioned above.

For Westerners, think about it as if a Catholic priest told his congregation that they should all get up early in the morning, come to church and pray all the services of the Divine Office (the first one is before dawn). Imagine if he said that they should recite 15 decades of the Rosary each day and spend their free time in prayer. These rules are followed by Catholic monks and nuns living in monasteries. However, they are not practical (or necessary) for lay Catholics with families.

So the way I see ISKCON is they are trying to make householders live by rules intended for sannyasis.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

ISKCON is a social movement.
ISKCON parades Jaganatha to show their own incalculable pastimes.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

their activities are cult-like. For example, telling their followers when to get up, making them chant 16 rounds a day, telling them not to associate with non-ISKCONites, forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines, saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite, encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple, and other things.

The way I see it, Chaitanya's movement was intended for sannyasis.

Do you notice the juncturization of two seperate worlds that you speak of?

Yoga ashram sadhana seen as cultish sannyasi contrasted with temple life living.

BTW, your scenario seems to be something that existed 35 years ago?
Where would a vaishnava temple seek off street novices "encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple"?

This hasn't does not exist since Billy Joel had hair. This is not true.
If anyone is encouraged to do something at a Hare Krsihna Temple, they should feel honored to sweep the floor and then consider that they have made very good progress in Bhakti-yoga.

The HARE KRISHNAS pride themselves on teaching the art of recognizing a bonefide spiritual aspirant. 'Do not disturb the minds of the ignorant but engage them in seva-bhakti (work)'---Gita.

It is so humorous to say ""
when to get up,
making them chant 16 rounds a day,
not to associate with non-ISKCONites [you mean to say, all worldly people],
forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines [Scott, could the devotee that you have a link with in the temple been telling things like this to scare you away? Why would they think to do that?],
saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite [IOW, Vaishnava foods vs Strangers the world over], encouraging them to move into the temple [Who lives in a temple? Just anybody who can pay the rent?]
and give all their money to the temple [if this is correct then why are they not rich & prosperous and even more infamous?], and other things [like prasadam, kirtan].

I just had a realization; Hare Krishna devotees that did the most difficult work done by old school Hare Krishna devotees, "Book distribution on the streets for a donation" never complained one iota about any nonsense that occured in temple politics during their Book distribution years.


ISKCON is meant to train humans in Brahminical disciplines. Without interest in this where is authority to be a practicing yogi?

[ScottMalaysia]

Do you notice the juncturization of two seperate worlds that you speak of?
[quote]
BTW, your scenario seems to be something that existed 35 years ago?
Where would a vaishnava temple seek off street novices "encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple"?This was mentioned by a devotee in a post on this subforum (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=211). ""Move into the temple" is the repeated mantra and if you dare to mention that you have responsibilities outside of the temple such as family or work, they criticize you without even knowing anything about you or your life. "




not to associate with non-ISKCONites [you mean to say, all worldly people],From the "Six Favorable and Unfavorable Principles (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter26.html)" in the Online Hare Krishna Temple:

5.Associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness
There are two kinds of non-devotees; those who are against Krsna's supremacy and those who are absorbed in material sense gratification. One should strictly avoid such association. We should live only in association with Krsna-conscious devotees and always be engaged in Krsna's service in their association.



forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines [Scott, could the devotee that you have a link with in the temple been telling things like this to scare you away? Why would they think to do that?], From the Online Hare Krishna Temple (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter26.html):

3.Talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters
Those who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness like to read heaps of newspapers, solve riddles, read novels, etc. They are simply wasting their time with useless activities. In this way materialistic people waste valuable time and energy. Old people spend their days with playing cards, fishing, television and speculations about social and political topics. All these activities belong to the prajalpa category, and should be avoided by intelligent people. (by whom they mean ISKCON devotees).


saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite [IOW, Vaishnava foods vs Strangers the world over], From the book A Beginner's Guide to Krsna Consciousness by Bhakti Vikasa Swami:

"Devotess who eat food cooked by persons of unclean habits and impure consciousness become contaminated by the mentality of the cook and share in their sinful karmic reations. As Lord Caitanya said, "When one eats food cooked by a materialistic person, one's mind becomes contaminated. When the mind becomes contaminated, one is unable to think of Krishna properly." (Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Antya-lila 6.278) Therefore, devotees practice taking only krsna-prasada....The best thing is to arrange life so as to only eat krsna-prasada."


I just had a realization; Hare Krishna devotees that did the most difficult work done by old school Hare Krishna devotees, "Book distribution on the streets for a donation" never complained one iota about any nonsense that occured in temple politics during their Book distribution years.I disagree with the way that ISKCON distributes books. The book distributors will come up to a person and give them a book. Sometimes they say that the book is a free book. Once the person has taken the book, they then ask the person to give a donation "to cover the cost of printing". A devotee pressed me to get money out of an ATM when I told her I didn't have any cash on me. If you give them a couple of dollars they may say "Most people give us ten dollars." Another devotee approached my in-laws at the Kantan Kali Temple in Malaysia and gave them a book. He requested the amount of the donation: 18 ringgit. This technique is described extensively in the book Where is Joey? Lost Among the Hare Krishnas (http://www.amazon.ca/Where-Joey-Lost-Among-Krishnas/dp/0804004145/ref=sr_1_5/180-3620888-9665811?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266903065&sr=1-5) where Morris Yanoff explains that they do it that way because selling at O'Hare Airport is prohibited by city ordinances.

Another way they used to get money (I don't know if it is still practiced) is to get their women to pin flowers on travellers at the airport and then request a donation. However, they won't say that the donation is for ISKCON. They will say that it's for "the needy" or "drug addicts" or something else that sounds worthwhile. This is totally dishonest but I read that they justify it by saying that the people they solicited were going to use the money for sinful purposes; they, on the other hand, are going to use it for Krishna's service. But again, I don't know if they still do this.

[grames]

Sometimes it is very hard to differentiate the practices by few followers from the actual path laid by the acharyas and no path in SD is not affected by this unfortunate things.

ISKCON or any spiritual organization do have more or less same kind of principles and if such principles alone give a brand name as "cult", surely there is no tinge of negativity in accepting the ISKCON as a cult as per your opinion.

But, by following such principles sincerely, it gives the follower the greatest oppertunity to progress in Bhakthi Yoga to realize the highest goal of experiencing the Krshna Rasas. Though Bhakthi Yoga sound very simple for an outlooker, it is also a highly disciplined and ordered process of progress which require a lot of regulation.

[Jivattatva]

Pranam Scott

Thanks for collating the info. There are many more horrible stuff, actually. :D But Im tired.

Anyway, Bhakta Jan, Mohini and Grames. Stop defending ISKCON. I know you are all newcomers.

My advice to you is this: If we dont acknowledge the past we may be bound to repeat it.

You can make ISKCON a better place, just learn from the past.


BhaktaJAN

Of course it's human nature. But does that not invalidate the findings in the past of the many people involved. And Time magazine is not a tabloid!

And I wish to add that the ISKCON story does not invalidate the beauty of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[sambya]

gaudiya vaishnavism .... ahh . its so refreshing .:bowdown::) mahaprabhu was a real saviour . i have no doubts about that !!



but iskcon ? ..... thats a different story . :banghead::banghead::banghead:

[keshava]

Pranams ScottMalaysia

Although there may be genuine things wrong with an organisation made up of individuals some of the things you have mentioned are more to do with principles they follow rather than people or groups problems.

The principles are not meant for sanysasis they are meant for devotees of Krishna. When Krishna says in the gita man mana bhava mad bhakta, he is taking about all devotees he doesnt say just sanysasis should do this.

The 6 goswamis were not sanyasis. The eventyually retired from house hold life. Nityananda prabhu and associate of mahaprabhu was a grhasta as were many others. The principle of avoiding asat sanga and asscoiating with sat sanga is not an ISKCON principle.
People are free to follow as much as they want put the principles cant be changed to suit people just because they dont agree and want to call them cultish.

Whne Krishna says
man-mana bhava mad-bhakto / mad-yaji mam namaskuru
mam evaisyasi satyam te / pratijane priyo 'si me

mat-manah--thinking of Me; bhava--just become; mat-bhaktah--My devo­tee; mat-yaji--My worshiper; mam--unto Me; namaskuru--offer your obeisances; mam--unto Me; eva--certainly; esyasi--you will come; satyam--truly; te--to you; pratijane--I promise; priyah--dear; asi--you are; me--to Me.

TRANSLATION

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

Someone may call him a cult leader or brain washer as he is encouraging people to only think of him always and it seems very impractical for some people. They dont have to follow, but dont label it as brain washing.
Waking up early having a bath, reading devotional literatures etc may seem like brainwash to some who are unfamiliar to it, but those that have been raised say in India these things are satvic and aid in spiritual development.

I can understand that sometyimes these things may not be presented by members of ISKCON or presented in a narrow way however that does not mean the principles are cultish or incorrect.


Many of their activities are cult-like. For example, telling their followers when to get up, making them chant 16 rounds a day, telling them not to associate with non-ISKCONites, forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines, saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite, encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple, and other things.

The way I see it, Chaitanya's movement was intended for sannyasis. The Six Goswamis of Vrindavan were all sannyasis. The above mentioned things would be appropriate for sannyasis living in India. Sannyasis aren't supposed to own anything and they are supposed to eat only prasad, given to them by devotees. Because they have renounced the world, their thoughts are supposed to be wholly spiritual, and they wouldn't read secular books and magazines because they have renounced all that. They do not sleep long, so they get up early, and are constantly engaged in devotional service. They wouldn't extensively associate with those who aren't religious because those sort of people wouldn't be interested in helping a sannyasi.

However, it would not be appropriate for a householder with a wife and family to follow all the rules for sannyasis. He has to make a living and spend time with his family, so doing an extensive amount of chanting wouldn't be practical, nor would the other things mentioned above.

For Westerners, think about it as if a Catholic priest told his congregation that they should all get up early in the morning, come to church and pray all the services of the Divine Office (the first one is before dawn). Imagine if he said that they should recite 15 decades of the Rosary each day and spend their free time in prayer. These rules are followed by Catholic monks and nuns living in monasteries. However, they are not practical (or necessary) for lay Catholics with families.

So the way I see ISKCON is they are trying to make householders live by rules intended for sannyasis.

[keshava]

From the "Six Favorable and Unfavorable Principles (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter26.html)" in the Online Hare Krishna Temple:

5.Associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness
There are two kinds of non-devotees; those who are against Krsna's supremacy and those who are absorbed in material sense gratification. One should strictly avoid such association. We should live only in association with Krsna-conscious devotees and always be engaged in Krsna's service in their association.


Whats wrong with associating with devotees and avoiding inimate contact of non devotees. If the aim is Krsna then its helpful to have as much association with like minded persons. Just like if you're aim is to be a good student at uni you try to associate with other good students and avoiding too much intamacy with thoses that are not good students as they can prove distracting?

TA ETE SADHAVAH SADHVI SARVA-SANGA-VIVARJITAH
SANGAS TESV ATHA TE PRARTHYAH SANGA-DOSA-HARA HI TE

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 3.25.24)
O My mother, O virtuous lady, these are the qualities of great devotees who are free from all attachment. You must seek attachment to such holy men, for this counteracts the pernicious effects of material attachment.

HARI BHAKTI VILASA 10/174 from YOGA VASISTHA
One should always associate with saintly persons. Even if they do not narrate or preach, their talking itself is a great instruction.

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 3.23.55, spoken by Devahuti)
Association for sense gratification is certainly the path of bondage. But the
same type of association, performed with a saintly person, leads to the path of liberation, even if performed without knowledge.




From the Online Hare Krishna Temple (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter26.html):

3.Talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters
Those who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness like to read heaps of newspapers, solve riddles, read novels, etc. They are simply wasting their time with useless activities. In this way materialistic people waste valuable time and energy. Old people spend their days with playing cards, fishing, television and speculations about social and political topics. All these activities belong to the prajalpa category, and should be avoided by intelligent people. (by whom they mean ISKCON devotees).


Krsna says the same thing in the gita one should focus on him with single mindedness, with words, body and mind, the more you have distractions the harder it is to be a loving servant of the Lord? Its up to you how much you can do but the principle is advocated by Krsna also in the Gita?

YE VA MAYISE KRTA-SAUHRDARTHA
JANESU DEHAMBHARA-VARTIKESU
GRHESU JAYATMAJA-RATIMATSU
NA PRITI-YUKTA YAVAD-ARTHAS CA LOKE

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 5.5.3)
"Those who are interested in reviving Krsna consciousness and increasing their love of Godhead do not like to do anything that is not related to Krsna. They are not interested in mingling with people who are busy maintaining their bodies, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are not attached to their homes, although they may be householders. Nor are they attached to wives, children, friends or wealth. At the same time, they are not indifferent to the execution of their duties. Such people are interested in collecting only enough money to keep the body and soul together."






From the book A Beginner's Guide to Krsna Consciousness by Bhakti Vikasa Swami:

"Devotess who eat food cooked by persons of unclean habits and impure consciousness become contaminated by the mentality of the cook and share in their sinful karmic reations. As Lord Caitanya said, "When one eats food cooked by a materialistic person, one's mind becomes contaminated. When the mind becomes contaminated, one is unable to think of Krishna properly." (Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Antya-lila 6.278) Therefore, devotees practice taking only krsna-prasada....The best thing is to arrange life so as to only eat krsna-prasada."


Why is this a bad thing - If someone wants to follow strictly they can if they can't they dont have to ?




yagya-sishtasinah santo


muchyante sarva-kilbishai


bhunjate te tv agham papa


ye pacanty atma-karanat

The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin. (Bhagavad-gita 3.13)


There is nothing wrong with these principles if one accepts Krishna as God and the Gita and the scriptures, these pricniples are there as a means of helping one become more of a lover of the Lord however obviously (not obvious to some) that they shouldn't be presented in a condecending way.

[ScottMalaysia]

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

Swami Chidbhavananda translates the part in bold above as Fix your mind on Me.

Firstly, Krishna was talking to Arjuna here. Secondly, becoming Krishna's devotee and worshipping Him can be done without following the strict practices of ISKCON. Indeed, none of ISKCON's strict practices are mentioned in the Bhagavad-Gita. They most likely come from Caitanya-Caritamrita, a non-Vedic scripture. Krishna actually tells Arjuna to do his duty, not give it up and live in a temple chanting Hare Krishna for 2 hours every day.


The principles are not meant for sanysasis they are meant for devotees of Krishna. When Krishna says in the gita man mana bhava mad bhakta, he is taking about all devotees he doesnt say just sanysasis should do this.


Most other Hindus who are devotees of Krishna don't get up early, chant Hare Krishna 1,728 times a day etc. From what I've seen, I don't think even regular Gaudiya Math members do all these things.


Whats wrong with associating with devotees and avoiding inimate contact of non devotees. If the aim is Krsna then its helpful to have as much association with like minded persons. Just like if you're aim is to be a good student at uni you try to associate with other good students and avoiding too much intamacy with thoses that are not good students as they can prove distracting?

Yes, it's good to associate with other devotees of Krishna, just like Christians say that it's good to associate with other Christians. But you can also have good friends who don't share your religious beliefs, and that is fine. The problem is when devotees are told not to associate with non-devotees, they may stop associating with their friends and family. This is a cult-like practice - telling cult members not to associate with non-members. Jehovah's Witnesses (a pseudo-Christian cult) are told that their friends and family trying to get them away from the JW society is actually Satan testing them.

ISKCON maitains a very "us versus them" mentality, referring to non-devotees as "karmis". Morris Yanoff, author of Where is Joey? asked a devotee who a demon was. The devotee responded that a demon is anyone who is not a devotee. This "us versus them" mentality is common to cults.

ISKCON are also very disparaging to followers of other Hindu sects, such as Saivism, calling them "Mayavadis". They will gladly tell Christians that they are worshipping the same God, yet they tell that Saivites that their God is just a demigod and a servant of Krishna.


Krsna says the same thing in the gita one should focus on him with single mindedness, with words, body and mind, the more you have distractions the harder it is to be a loving servant of the Lord? Its up to you how much you can do but the principle is advocated by Krsna also in the Gita?


Most Hindus manage this without following ISKCON's strict practices and restrictions.


(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 5.5.3)
"Those who are interested in reviving Krsna consciousness and increasing their love of Godhead do not like to do anything that is not related to Krsna. They are not interested in mingling with people who are busy maintaining their bodies, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are not attached to their homes, although they may be householders. Nor are they attached to wives, children, friends or wealth. At the same time, they are not indifferent to the execution of their duties. Such people are interested in collecting only enough money to keep the body and soul together."

Again, most Hindus are not like that.





yagya-sishtasinah santo
muchyante sarva-kilbishai
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanatThe devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin. (Bhagavad-gita 3.13)

Let's look at another translation of this verse.

The good who eat the remains of Yajna are freed from all sins; but the sinful ones who cook food only for themselves, they verily eat sin.

Commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda

Karma in itself is neither good nor evil. The motif behind it makes it good or evil. A deadly war waged with the object of exterminating the wicked is a virtuous act. A pious prayer to the Almighty for a selfish end may not be a sin ; but it is not so meritorious as a prayer offered for common weal. An aotion becomes sacred to the extent the ego gets obliterated. All thought, word and deed require to be directed to the glory of the Lord and the good of the world.

Partaking of food is an obligatory work. Cooking the daily food has therefore to go on as a matter of course. But one ought to think of and provide for the hungry and the needy as much as for oneself. He who is exclusive and self-centred in the procurement of food and in the partaking of it, is a sinful man. What he eats is nothing but sin. The bondage of sin he creates for himself is boundless.

A day passed bereft of the performance of Yajna is a day gone to waste. Such is the injunction enjoined in the scriptures. An ideal family man is he who engages himself daily in the five great Yajnas. All the five of them form his nitya karma—obligatory work.

First and foremost among them is Deva Yajnathe worship of God. The day invariably begins with it. This has to be gone through devoutly and to the best of one's knowledge. It may be augmented with rituals according to traditions and individual tastes.

The second in order is Rishi Yajna — the adoration of the Enlightened. The great ones who have had God-realization have not allowed their rare experiences to go into oblivion. Out of compassion for the ignorant humanity they have passed them on to posterity in the form of scriptures and sacred books. A devoted study, assimilation and practice of the principles contained in them constitute this Yajna. Expounding the holy scriptures with a devotional attitude to the ardent enquirers and devotees is also an aspect of this Yajna.

Pitru Yajna comes third in rank. It has its two aspects. The living parents have to be revered and devotedly served every day. He who pleases not his parents cannot please anybody here or hereafter. This is the first part of this Yajna. Thinking daily holy and auspicious thoughts for the welfare of the departed ancestors is its second part.

Fourthly comes Nara Yajna—the devoted service rendered to mankind. Individuals are the limbs of the community. At all levels and in all fields the interest of the limb should be subordinated to that of the main body. Any position reverse to this is definitely harmful. That man who places the public interest above the personal and acts accordingly is doing Nara Yajna. This age is in need of emphasis on this Yajna.

Bhuta Yajna or a reverent relationship with all the living beings completes the list. Since all creatures have come from God, the Cosmic Life, they have to be treated with due regard. The domestic animals and birds require to be tended on a par with the human. The cow-mother — Gomata is literally worshipped in this great land. Bhuta Yajna does not, however, preclude stern steps being taken against terrific and venomous creatures that prove a menace to human life.

Through the meticulous practice of these five great sacrifices—Pancha maha yajna the life of man on earth becomes prosperous and auspicious. Again, all the activities in life can be converted into Yajna by the knowing ones.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

but iskcon ?
but iskcon ?
but iskcon ?

ISKCON got you guys on the map!

The western world is fill with YOGA terminology thanks to the HARE KRISHNA MOVEMENT.

The work done by ISKCON throughout the world will never be surpassed by anyother efforts. It's been too late for that.

The rest of the world must face THEIR DIRTY LAUNDRY, now.
That will make book disytribution a little easier.

The status quo seen in ISKCON past was NO SURPRISE to the educated vedantist.
But that is what it took to plant the seed first before others came along with their own mass destinies.


BTW, Donate your MONEY to a member of the ISKCON diasopra; make good karma.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

Scott,
You are quoting, "Pepe the devotee from the pueblo". You are quoting, 3rd hand confidential wellwishers that you have a specific reason to say "I can't handle the diciplines so it is wrong to suggest that it is best to do so".

You are systematically enumerating esoteric Hindu doctrine as if you are a spokesman.

But Satay will not delete your posts.

Scott, in your 24 years of life you have slept approx 8 years+ (1/3rd) of it & 8 years (1/3rd) where is the school system & 8 years (1/3rd) of your freetime spent on diverse activities. Now you are a teacher of other's field of expertise?

Shiva is the Chief Vaishnava. You are berating the WORKS of multitudes of ISKCON Vaishnavas.

You are blazing your own path, where you should be serving with all your mind, body & spirit the Vaishnavas.

[satay]

namaskar,

No, I will not delete his posts as I don't think he is breaking any rules. Scott didn't open this can of worms. So we can't blame him for the mess.



Scott,
You are quoting, "Pepe the devotee from the pueblo". You are quoting, 3rd hand confidential wellwishers that you have a specific reason to say "I can't handle the diciplines so it is wrong to suggest that it is best to do so".

You are systematically enumerating esoteric Hindu doctrine as if you are a spokesman.

But Satay will not delete your posts.

[ScottMalaysia]

Shiva is the Chief Vaishnava.

This is an ecumenical Hindu forum, not a Gaudiya forum. Many members may be offended by these words.


You are blazing your own path, where you should be serving with all your mind, body & spirit the Vaishnavas.

But I am a Saivite. My personal devotion is given to Durga Ma. I will pray to Krishna when I go to the temple, though, and Lord Rama.

[grames]

Dear Scott,

What is that your are talking here about? Your messages here give the glimpse of your hatred or discomft with ISKCON practices though you are very gladly equating the 'not so iskcon" practices as general Hindu one. Let me involve with a response here.


Firstly, Krishna was talking to Arjuna here. Secondly, becoming Krishna's devotee and worshiping Him can be done without following the strict practices of ISKCON.

You ought to explain HOW? and also you have to lay down such How as the 'common' general practices of "ALL" the "so called Hindus" you are referring to. Can you do that? If you can, please i ll be delighted to learn one such easy process of following Bhakthi Yoga.


Krishna actually tells Arjuna to do his duty, not give it up and live in a temple chanting Hare Krishna for 2 hours every day. Do you know the actual meaning of "worship"?? Please explain what it is with respect to Lord Krishna. Secondly, what works for Arjuna is not same for everyone. I do not think , devotee Scott will take up Bow and arrows and find his friends and relatives in a battlefield and kill everyone to establish his Dharma.


Most other Hindus who are devotees of Krishna don't get up early, chant Hare Krishna 1,728 times a day etc. From what I've seen, I don't think even regular Gaudiya Math members do all these things.
Devotee does not mean someone who is sympathizing with Lord Krishna but someone who accepted a process called Bhakthi "Yoga" to realize his relationship with Lord and also the pure bliss that comes out of this relationship. It is a process and not a mere sentimental approach to the ultimate Divinity where you just go to a temple when you have free time and nothing else to do and dress up in Dhotti etc. with tilak on ur forehead. Its a process and it has rules and it has strict regulations prescribed for progress. It is not ISKCON practice alone and every "dharmic" people who follow the path of Bhakthi Yoga do have all such rules and regulations in different forms. Unlike what you seem to believe, most Hindus who strictly follow spiritual path be it Bhakthi or others, do get up early and do a lot more activities in their path. ( Do not equate rare rshis with common man and even those Rshis do not know what is morning and when is night). If you happen to learn from people who are not really in any spritual path but give you a tailor made version of practice to suite you, believe me, YOU ARE VERY MUCH LOST!



Yes, it's good to associate with other devotees of Krishna, just like Christians say that it's good to associate with other Christians.
For someone who wants to make the progress in Bhakthi Yoga, SatSang of devotees is the much required discipline as it is the best catalyst. For such initiated devotees there are no other good friends and "good" in your opinion is relative and for a devotee who dedicates his life for the progress in Bhakthi Yoga associating with other devotees are the only Good. You do not have to accept this but it is how a Bhakthi Yogi can be focused on his path rather be distracted with so called "Good" friends. Your aversion to Christianity does not make Christianity wrong and for your info, it is not just ISKCON but majority of the Human being who follow SD do not hate Christianity but only have discomfort in some of their ways of thrusting their practices on others. ISKCON is not preaching "WE vs Others" but for the beginners and intermediate Bhakthi Yogi's it is necessary to accumulate and achieve something fruitful in the path or in simple words steady love,prema for Lord at all time and in all circumstances instead of associating with others which is futile and waste of time wrt to the goal of their initiation. Someone who know nothing but want to talk about Bhakthi Yoga, their message will be exactly like yours with out any true information or benefits of the path Bhakthi. Hope you do not take this as personal offense but i am pointing out the why rules and regulations are there.


ISKCON are also very disparaging to followers of other Hindu sects, such as Saivism, calling them "Mayavadis". In this forum it is a big issue to be addressed as "MayaVaadi" and not sure why people take it as so offensive when their philosophy in totality is about the "Maya" Vaada. Reducing/negating the Maya to attain the status of Brahman is the core of this philosophy and it is not derigotary at all unless u assume it like that. Its just a name for the philosophy.



Most Hindus manage this without following ISKCON's strict practices and restrictions. Most = How many?? Isin't limited to your knowing? Also what makes you think ISKCON is making a general rule to all Hindus? Its soley for ISKCON followers.

You said you are following Saivaism. Let me bring you few verses from the Holy ThiruMular for your reference.

224.
அந்தணர் ஆவோர் அறுதொழில் பூண்டுளோர்
செந்தழல் ஓம்பிமுப் போதும் நியமஞ்செய்
தந்தவ நற்கரு மத்துநின்று ஆங்கிட்டுச்
சந்தியும் ஓதிச் சடங்கறுப் போர்களே. 1

225.
வேதாந்தங் கேட்க விருப்பொடு முப்பதப்
போதாந்த மான பிரணவத் துள்புக்கு
நாதந்த வேதாந்த போதாந்த நாதனை
ஈதாந்தம் எனாதுகண்டு இன்புறு வோர்க்களே. 2

226.
காயத் திரியே கருதுசா வித்திரி
ஆய்தற்கு உவப்பர் மந்திரம் ஆங்கு உன்னி
நேயத் தேரேறி நினைவுற்று நேயத்தாய்
மாயத்துள் தோயா மறையோர்கள் தாமே. 3

227.
பெருநெறி யான பிரணவம் ஓர்ந்து
குருநெறி யாலுரை கூடிநால் வேதத்
திருநெறி யான கிரியை யிருந்து
சொரூபமது ஆனோர் துகளில்பார்ப் பாரே. 4

228.
சத்திய மும்தவம் தானவன் ஆதலும்
எய்த்தரும் இந்தியம் ஈட்டியே வாட்டலும்
ஒத்த உயிர்கள் உண்டா யுணர்வுற்று
பெத்தம் அறுத்தலும் ஆகும் பிரமமே. 5

229.
வேதாந்தங் கேட்க விரும்பிய வேதியர்
வேதாந்தங் கேட்டுந்தம் வேட்கை ஒழிந்திலர்
வேதாந்த மாவது வேட்கை ஒழிந்திடம்
வேதாந்தங் கேட்டவர் வேட்கை விட்டாரே. 6

230.
நூலும் சிகையும் நுவலிற் பிரமமோ
நூலது கார்ப்பாசம் நுண்சிகை கேசமாம்
நூலது வேதாந்தம் நுண்சிகை ஞானமாம்
நூலுடை அந்தணர் காணும் நுவலிலே. 7

231.
சத்தியம் இன்றித் தனிஞானம் தானின்றி
ஒத்த விடயம்விட் டோ டும் உணர்வின்றிப்
பத்தியும் இன்றிப் பரன் உண்மை யின்றிப்
பித்தேறும் மூடர் பிராமணர் தாமன்றே. 8

232.
திருநெறி யாகிய சித்தசித் தின்றிக்
குருநெறி யாலே குருபதம் சேர்ந்து
கரும நியமாதி கைவிட்டுக் காணும்
துரிய சமாதியாந் தூய்மறை யோர்க்கே. 9

233.
மறையோர் அவரே மறையவர் ஆனால்
மறையோர்தம் வேதாந்த வாய்மையினால் தூய்மை
குறையோர்தன் மற்றுள்ள கோலா கலமென்று
அறிவோர் மறைதொ஢ந்து அந்தண ராமே. 10

234.
அந்தண்மை பூண்ட அருமறை அந்தத்துச்
சிந்தைசெய் அந்தணர் சேரும் செழும்புவி
நந்துதல் இல்லை நரபதி நன்றாகும்
அந்தியும் சந்தியும் ஆகுதி பண்ணுமே. 11

235.
வேதாந்த ஞானம் விளங்க விதியிலோர்
நாதாந்த போதம் நணுகிய போக்கது
போதாந்த மாம்பரன் பாற்புகப் புக்கதால்
நாதாந்த முத்தியும் சித்தியும் நண்ணுமே. 12

236.
ஒன்றும் இரண்டும் ஒருங்கிய காலத்து
நன்றும் இருந்தும் நலம்பல பேசினும்
வென்று விளங்கும் விகிர்தனை நாடுவர்
சென்று வணங்குந் திருவுடை யோரே. 13

237.
தானே விடும்பற்று இரண்டும் தரித்திட
நானே விடப்படும் ஏதொன்றை நாடாது
பூமேவு நான்முகன் புண்ணிய போகனாய்
ஓமேவும் ஓர்ஆ குதிஅவி உண்ணவே.

Please get a translation for the above verses and you will realize the code of conduct for who is a Brahmana. So, does shaivaism is also not Hindu but a cult because they also have code of conduct for Brahmana, Kshatriya etc. On the other hand, do you think there should be definite guidelines, rules and regulations for progressing and being steady in their spritual paths and if they have such rules and regulations means they are the BEST? Just leave it to your thoughts... unbiased.!

[bhaktajan]

I nominate Grames for a Nobel Peace Prise.

[bhaktajan]

In my useless and fallen and foolish Opinion:
Cult [modern definition] = followers of a charasmatic (living) person.

- - - - - - - - -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#cite_note-49)
- - - --- - - - ---
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult

an instance of great veneration of a person. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person

- - - - - - - - -
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult+of+personality?qsrc=2446

cult of personality:

a cult promoting adulation of a living national leader or public figure ---ie. as one encouraged by Stalin to extend his power.

[bhaktajan]

"us versus them" mentality is common to United Nations Resolution Commitees and similar Parlimentary enterprises.

Scott,
Bhaktajan wrote: "Shiva is the Chief Vaishnava."
This is a fact. No Vaishnav takes offense to this. It is the Opinion of Vedavyasa's Vedas.

This is an ecumenical Hindu forum, not a Gaudiya forum.
The thread is: "Forum for discussion of Krishna Consciousness: Hare Krishna!" [read the text yourself at the top of the page]

Many members may be offended by these words.
[BUT WHY SHOULD I CARE IF ANY ONE IS ANNOYED? You mean to say many readers will disagree and thus say, "I AM HEREBY OFFENDED, I MUST HAVE REDRESS"---???]

[bhaktajan]

Hare Krishna's were never a Cult [in the modern sense]:

When Bhaktivedanta Swami was establishing his international Krishna Consciouness movement ---he mostly avoided media interviews.

He was the Guru of the movement yet he was proclaiming another person as the Goal: Krishna's Fame.

After Bhaktivedanta Swami's passing, The Hare Krsihna movement went through a "weeding out process". The Hare Krsihna movement ex-communicated and exciled and shunned all those that were within the ranks that had fallen from strict braminical disciplines ---by asking them to leave the movement (or self-demote oneself to menial tasks within the temple).

The Hare Krishnas are exclusive, and demanding of orthodoxy.

This is the Gold-standard-of-measurement that is always maintained by first-rate Yoga Institutions.

[grames]

I nominate Grames for a Nobel Peace Prise.

Man, you are making me laugh so loud in the morning! :)

Hare Krishna!

[Hiwaunis]

but iskcon ?
but iskcon ?
but iskcon ?

ISKCON got you guys on the map!

The western world is fill with YOGA terminology thanks to the HARE KRISHNA MOVEMENT.

The work done by ISKCON throughout the world will never be surpassed by anyother efforts. It's been too late for that.

The rest of the world must face THEIR DIRTY LAUNDRY, now.
That will make book disytribution a little easier.

The status quo seen in ISKCON past was NO SURPRISE to the educated vedantist.
But that is what it took to plant the seed first before others came along with their own mass destinies.


BTW, Donate your MONEY to a member of the ISKCON diasopra; make good karma.

Pranam,
Ah yes the ISKCON. Why didn't someone tell ME it was a cult?
I remember my first encounter with those guys in the airport. This was over 23 years ago. Some guy in orange dress approached my husband and said, "would you like a book"? My husband replied, "no, I don't read that stuff give it to her". So the Hare Krishna Rep, turns to me and said, "would you like a book"? Then he handed me a book. I said, "thank you but I don't have any money". He said, "that's o.k." and then walked away.

The book is titled, The Nectar of Instruction. It's a 130 page paper-back book. I still have it today. I am looking at it right now. Back then I did not have a clue what A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA was or meant. The text is in sanskrit, then sanskrit translated, then each word is translated into English. At the bottom of the page is an overall translation of what was first written in sanskrit. Did that help me? Nope, but I read the book anyway.

TEXT ONE:
A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak the minds demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciiples all over the world.

Back then I was a "good Christian" and the above statement meant nothing to me.

Today, I understand. ISKCON is a cult-NOT! GAYATRI PARIWAR is a cult-NOT, BRAHMA KUMARIS WORLD SPIRITUAL UNIVERSITY is a cult-NOT. ALL OF YOU WHO LIVE IN AN ASHRAM OR ARE ASSOCIATED WITH ANY LARGE OR SMALL SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT BELONG TO A CULT-NOT, NOT, NOT!

Please explain the reason for getting up between the hours of 4am and 5am to meditate. Please explain the reason for chanting over 1700 mantras a day. Please explain the reason for staying away from some and not eating the food cooked by others. While you are at it please explain why you can't use Mac operating system on a Windows base computer?

ISKCON please continue to chant over 1700 mantras a day, please? We are barely into Kali yuga and it is a living hell! The earth's atmoshpere needs those pure vibrations.

Why is it that every time someone wants to travel on the spiritual path family and friends try to divert them with " NOBODY ELSE DOES THAT"? Spirituality is whats keeping this world stable.

ISKCON, The Nectar of Instruction. Back then I was a young mother and didn't have extra money. Today I do. Mohini Shakti Devi I would like to make a donation. Please send me the address so that I may create good karma.

If you want to change the world you must first change yourself. (Whose words are those?)

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

[bhaktajan]

"Donate your MONEY to a member of the ISKCON diasopra; make good karma."

We all know about ''thithing" and giving donation upon visit to a tirtha (pilgrimage location/temple) . . .

I have been thinking in the back of my mind the following self-preformed propositition:

"Adopt a Brahmacari/Adopt a Brahmacarini Program"

IOW, sponsor 'something' [a scholarship-like gift] ---[BTW, it should be recogised as a Tax-deductable charitable donation] for the further Education of a temple Monk/Monkette and/or congregations' child or children.

IE: A trust account can be formed to pay for X,Y,Z to allow for extra-curricular activities.

Note: these things occur but they occur depending on those who already have the means to do so; while others cannot.

Similarly, financial retirement plans, that a karma-free [IRA are investing in all sorts of banker's and thus, mixed-karmic transactions versus, clean "green" Investment plans].

I am thinking of approaching the local temple president and asking who deserves to, say, travel to a distant tirtha along with the chartered bus, bat cannot afford to pay the fees ----but I am indeed saying to do it ananomously And for a specific person who is without reserve cash.

[bhaktajan]

"my first encounter with those guys in the airport."

As I was infromed in 1990, [by Satyaraja]: "It has become illegal to do book distribution in American Airports [for ISKCON & all others too]".

Is this still the status Quo in American Airports?

[grames]

Just answering few questions...


1. Please explain the reason for getting up between the hours of 4am and 5am to meditate.

This hr of the day is called Brahma Muhurta and that is the very auspicious time to do meditation, japa etc. Scientifically if you care to know, it is the time span where the ozone is available for breathing. When we inhale pure oxygen, our body gets enormous energy and that energy can be spend for the rest of the day's activities. Doing Gayatri at this time or Sandya will activate all our indriyas and a spritual seeker is suppose to do the karmic activities only after the indriyas are cleansed in this fashion. ( Know when the Brahma Muhurta is and try to wake up at that time for at least 1 week with the help of Alarm etc. and see for yourself whether it has any effect on your body, mind and if possible soul). For ISKCON members i believe Krishna Mantra is the Brahma Muhurta mantra too.

2. Please explain the reason for chanting over 1700 mantras a day.
This number 1700 is not about the different mantras but about the count of only one mantra. Usually Mantra given as part of initiation by a Guru has the some of the spiritual power of the Guru. The Name Japa is the practical and ideal way of progressing in your spiritual quest in this age of Kali as per KSU and for ISKCON members it is Shri Krishna Maha Mantra.

(Whoever utters three and a half Crores (or thirty-five millions) times this Mantra composed of sixteen names (or words) crosses the sin of the murder of a Brahmana. He becomes purified from the sin of the theft of gold. He becomes purified from the sin of cohabitation with a woman of low caste. He is purified from the sins of wrong done to Pitris, Devas and men. Having given up all Dharmas, he becomes freed at once from all sins. He is at once released from all bondage. That he is at once released from all bondage is the Upanishad.)

3. Please explain the reason for staying away from some and not eating the food cooked by others.
This question is not correct in the sense that, ISKCON people do eat what "others" cook as long the "other" is a spiritual person and the food is offered to Lord Krishna. In other words, they love to consume only Krishna prasad. It is one way of cleansing your senses spiritually just like how hearing, seeing etc. eating a spiritual prasadam improves their spiritual quest.

Why not associate with others? Who are the others? Someone who is not spiritual and who is in the mode of Rajas and Tamas or someone who is an atheist or disguised as an devotee but truly have no idea of what God is. Whats the harm associating with people like that? You are at the gates of learning and experiencing the spiritual qualities of Lord and your progress depends on your focus and attention as well as undisturbed faith in the path you have chosen. (Whatever path it is, the process is same. Someone who has chosen Raja Yoga path will not benefit much by associating with someone in other path.). If you have done any specialization like PhD or doctorate in any subject, you will really understand the meaning of why avoid association of "others" as while doing such specialization our whole attention will be only on the subject of specialization and we tend to spend almost all our time only with people who are experts in that particular subject.


4 While you are at it please explain why you can't use Mac operating system on a Windows base computer?

Mac on Windows? OS on OS is bad idea but you can run various OS using visualization tools nowadays. If you meant to ask, why can't we run Mac on any X86 based PCs, then the answer is very simple. Apple makes money through two different sources viz. hardware and software and also their OS gives the best experience only if the hardware and software are in sync and happy together like a great husband and wife. If hardware sucks, the OS will be like Windows which you do not want.

In the same line, to achieve the best out of your process, you need to have the best of the best environment (hardware) so that your software ( spiritual knowledge) performs best (pala).

5. If you want to change the world you must first change yourself. (Whose words are those?)

The mostly identified person who uttered this is M Gandhi though it is not his own thought.

[Jivattatva]

Cult is about control.

And I find it pathetic that some here defend ISKCON's past even when they were not there when it's at its cultic peak in the past.

I have not lived in an ISKCON ashram for almost 20 years now so I dont know how they are doing now --maybe much better because, well, they are not in the news lately. But I think their donation solicitation so-called sankirtan activity is still very questionable.

I dont have time to write tons and tons of posts so I will direct you to read the following. All the books below except "Monkey" were written by Prabhupad disciples.

Also old newsitems from the N.Y. times like this may give you ISKCON apologists some reality jolt. More to come if you drag on with this thread.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/18/us/hare-krishna-leader-faces-second-racketeering-trial.html?pagewanted=1

http://www.rickross.com/reference/krishna/krishna90.html

http://www.neirr.org/Krishnaproblems.htm


Books by ISKCON initiated disciples

1. Monkey on a Stick . Buy it here

http://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Stick-Onyx-John-Hubner/dp/0451401875

2. Betrayal of the spirit -

http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Spirit-Headlines-Krishna-Movement/dp/0252065662/ref=pd_sim_b_1


3. Servant of the Lotus feet: A Hare Krishna Odyssey

http://www.amazon.com/Servant-Lotus-Feet-Krishna-Odyssey/dp/0595312640/ref=pd_sim_b_6

4. Hare krishna in America

http://www.amazon.com/Hare-Krishna-America-Burke-Rochford/dp/0813511143/ref=pd_sim_b_12


Other info:

http://www.religionfacts.com/a-z-religion-index/hare-krishna-iskcon.htm

[grames]

Hello dear,

What makes you think people are defending here the past?

All the links you have posted had been caused by the so called unfortunate people who never been sincere or attempted even to the little to understand the life style that SP has recommended. If you are thinking people here are defending ISKCON as a brand, you are mistaken. The explanations are all about the life style, spiritual practice that was given by Srila Prabupada himself.

On the positive side, look at the people who are still carrying Srila Prabupada's message and instructions sincerely and truth should be taken from them rather some garbage past.

[bhaktajan]

Oy Mate,

I shared the same ashram room with Bala, Bhavananda's servant.

I saw New Vrindavan ex-communicated.

I saw West 55th St Sold.

Jivattatva,

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that "man bites dog stories sells" for reasons that PT Barnum [of Barnum & bailey Circus Fame] said about his customer base.

I suggest you watch Ken Burns' Documentary, "the American Civil War" to get a glimps of selfless service for the betterment of mankind as preformed by guileless persons born and destined to act.

I WAS THERE AND I HAVE NOT ABANDONED MY POST.

I never sought a substitute for my old life.

I am a Hare Krishna Iskcon member because it is Sanatana Dharma that I have finally arrived at after passing through all other yogic paths during past lifes.

That is why I do not loose heart when I reflect on all the fallen comrades from the past.

It would MAKE INTERESTING READING to reveal on these forums how you, Jivatattva, experienced what the Buddha called the 'First Nobel Truth' [this world is a place of suffering].

The first hand experience in the form of a testimony would reveal a personal journey that is all your own.

BTW, I knew 90% of each person named in "Monkey on a Stick".

"Monkey on a Stick" documents each atrocity and also each sensationalised event by the authors, who by the way, wrote in a 'very sympathethic tone [the authors maintained a favorably inclined overview toward ISKCON aka, the HARE KRISHNA MOVEMENT]' I will openly and confidently speculate that every book linked above is similarly is written with 'very sympathethic tone toward ISKCON' without nary a one who calls for a desolution of ISKCON.

In my fallen opinion is that NO ONE EVER Leaves the Krishna Consciousness Movement ---they simply disperse in all directions with the goal of being the best they can be on their own terms.

The irony of the publication linked above is that all the authors are all still maintaining Krsna Conscious satsanga, anyway you spin it**.

**Just like Jivatattva's ex-ashram mates.



Kali yuga's qualities; conditioned Minds with the 4 defects [lying, cheating, mistaken,ill-informed]; and the external influences such as: past-karma; other people including our brother Cains; the oportunistic nature of mass karma; and even, falling tree-limbs, all show that there is danger at every step in the material world.

[ScottMalaysia]

Hello dear,

What makes you think people are defending here the past?

All the links you have posted had been caused by the so called unfortunate people who never been sincere or attempted even to the little to understand the life style that SP has recommended. If you are thinking people here are defending ISKCON as a brand, you are mistaken. The explanations are all about the life style, spiritual practice that was given by Srila Prabupada himself.

On the positive side, look at the people who are still carrying Srila Prabupada's message and instructions sincerely and truth should be taken from them rather some garbage past.

So all the controversial stuff was in the past? None of it happens now?

For those considering ISKCON or Gaudiya Vaishnavism, I will give you my two cents.

Go with the Gaudiya Math (http://www.purebhakti.com), run by Srila Prabhupada's good friend Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj, whom Srila Prabhupada told his disciples to contact to perform his funeral. They are far less "fanatical" than ISKCON. They do not require disciples to chant 16 rounds per day in order to be initiated. Narayana Maharaj looks at a person's sincerity, rather than the "tehnicalities" of chanting etc. He also doesn't say that sex is only for procreation. In his letter to me, he told me "I am not responsible for your behaviour in grhasta asram". One of the devotees at the Gaudiya Math temple in Malaysia told me that many of the devotees there were originally from ISKCON but later switched to the Gaudiya Math.

[Jivattatva]

I'm sure nothing will convince these pathetic ISKCON apologists about it's despicable cultic past.

Out of courtesy, because most members of the forum are Indian born, I try not infer anything to Bhaktivedanta Swami.

But because some of you think he is just a simple, sober, propagator of Gvism, I'll let you decide for yourself.

Below is taken from the blog of an american devotee. If said today, some of Bhaktivedanta Swami's ideas could land him in court.

http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/about/#1

Taken from blog. You can read the detailed words verbatim of Bhaktivedanta Swami if you go to the blog.

All throughout this blog there are many more examples where I show in detail how what is passing itself off as the authentic voice of Vedic Dharma in today’s world — is in reality chock full of utter misrepresentations and outright falsehoods in furtherance of a goal — gaining 100% dedicated slave-like devotion and utter submission from as many people as possible to ISKCON (the organization created by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada), known to the public as “The Hare Krishnas,” but which is actually just one of many Gaudiya Vaishnava organizations active inside and outside of India.

1. His Views Promoting Violence and Killing People to Attain His Goals

2. His Views Promoting Racism and Slavery

3. His Support of Hitler

4. His Support of Antisemitism

5. His Support of Homophobia

6. His Views Concerning Women

7. His Views Concerning Women’s Education

8. His Views Supporting Dictatorship as a Preferred Form of Governance

9. His Views Promoting the “Moon Landing Hoax” Conspiracy Theory and Related Cosmological Vision

10. His Views Promoting the Idea that Women Enjoy Being Raped



I am hesitant to to include this becuase there are criticism against GVism but I cant blame him because there are truth to some of the ideas. Below is the link to a blog by an Indian Advaitin . In it he posits that the seeds of deviation was sown by Bhativedanta Swami and his guru.


Understanding Iskcon and its confusion..Something all Hindus should know..

http://www.sanghparivar.org/blog/rkm/understanding-iskcon-and-its-confusion-something-all-hindus-should-know

[bhaktajan]

I grew up reading the encyclopedia.

Today we read anonymous blogs.

Jivatattva,
I SAID I WAS THERE!
No Stories or first-hand stories to swap?

[bhaktajan]

1. His Views Promoting Violence and Killing People to Attain His Goals
This must be a secret of the Vedas hidden since 1965 til 1977 and then continued to be hidden until the advent of Blogs?

2. His Views Promoting Racism and Slavery
More hidden meanings in between the lines of the sankrit verses?

3. His Support of Hitler
Why have I not been included on the mailing list of this info before now?

4. His Support of Antisemitism
Jesus said the Jews are in control of everything? But Iskcon is still poor?

5. His Support of Homophobia
Quoting pramana hidden by the crusaders or Constantine?

6. His Views Concerning Women
Those Swami's just wont learn any new Tricks, no matter what the new fads are.

7. His Views Concerning Women’s Education
Yet, one of the chief editors was a woman [But you might know that]
Also, you might look the other way when you recall that the Gurukula teachers where women too.

8. His Views Supporting Dictatorship as a Preferred Form of Governance
Yes, Monarchy is best. Inlieu of that, a checks & Balance process known as the Parliment Structure evolved through history especially in an age of Kali.
But the presence of a Benevolent & selfless Kings is seen in Military cadets that rise to the ranks of General.

9. His Views Promoting the “Moon Landing Hoax” Conspiracy Theory and Related Cosmological Vision.
His vision is to 'REPEAT THE WORDS OF THE VEDAS' WITHOUT SPECULATION.

10. His Views Promoting the Idea that Women Enjoy Being Raped
His VIEWS are to 'REPEAT THE WORDS OF THE VEDAS' WITHOUT SPECULATION.
Jivatattva, YOU DO AGREE THAT WOMEN ENJOY SHOWING THEMSELVES NAKED ---TO A WORLD WIDE AUDIENCE?

[bhaktajan]

Just see the Epoch when ISKCON & A.C. Bhaktivedanta appeared and how it was in contradistiction to the mode-of-the-era's agendas:

While ISKCON & A.C. Bhaktivedanta propagated the Yuga-Dharma and Sanatana-Dharma and publicly corraled those re-born 'Fallen Bhumi loka-bound Yogi Bharastras . . . while other contrasing agendas slowly proceeded on a tragectory bound to further distract the world from transcendental concerns:

There were men, women and children destined for the other end of the spectrum due to births of those who would be Asuras:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" --Geo. Santayana

[ScottMalaysia]

6. His Views Concerning Women
Those Swami's just wont learn any new Tricks, no matter what the new fads are.

7. His Views Concerning Women’s Education
Yet, one of the chief editors was a woman [But you might know that]
Also, you might look the other way when you recall that the Gurukula teachers where women too.

He said that women are half as intelligent as men and shouldn't be given independence - they should be treated the same way as children. Whether one of his chief editors was a woman does not change the views that he held and propagated. I don't think he'd've been very happy about professional women who went out to work and earned more than their husbands.

9. His Views Promoting the “Moon Landing Hoax” Conspiracy Theory and Related Cosmological Vision.
His vision is to 'REPEAT THE WORDS OF THE VEDAS' WITHOUT SPECULATION.

The Vedas do not say that it is impossible to go to the moon.


10. His Views Promoting the Idea that Women Enjoy Being Raped
His VIEWS are to 'REPEAT THE WORDS OF THE VEDAS' WITHOUT SPECULATION.
Jivatattva, YOU DO AGREE THAT WOMEN ENJOY SHOWING THEMSELVES NAKED ---TO A WORLD WIDE AUDIENCE?


A few - maybe 5% of all women - enjoy showing themselves naked to the world. But they have a choice to do so. Rape is not a choice - it is something that is forced upon women.

[grames]

Wow. Now i can see the quality of one of the pseudo hare krishna here. Please do not think that i am accusing someone because of my love or trying to escape the situation by branding someone as pseudo etc. In my previous post, i have mentioned that, the whole 'bad' things that happened/happening in ISKCON is due to some unfortunate people who never attempted to understand or "follow" what their Guru said.

How unfortunate it is when you say you follow a philosophy and practiced/practice something but have no basic fundamental understanding of what that philosophy is. As said before, it is not the loss of SP but the pseudo follower(s).

In GV or in the heart of SP, woman form is the best of all to express that ultimate Love for the Ultimate Purusha. As SP said, when you describe people, they get offended even your description is very true. ( It is a very well known psychic behavior of normal human ego that we rebel or rebut if anyone attempt to describe what we are.) If you are a woman, then any description about woman will be very offensive to you and with that agitated mind, oh dear how are you going to ever see the glory that the Vedic Dharma holds and shows for you? It is not just SP who is going through this accusation but almost virtually all the great Saints of SD go through this and also SD in general.

Let me give shortest possible response to some of these ill natured accusations here and also if at all possible wait for this unfortunate Jiva who may still have the wish to enjoy the bliss of Krishna to open the heart and soul to understand the greatest soul that is blessed by the Mercy of Lord Krishna. ( Also, i request non Vaishnavas to refrain from polluting this thread)


1. First and foremost, since you believe that Indian born do not have any understanding of the 'cult' past of ISKCON, it is also in the same line that the westerners who were meat eaters, drug addicts etc. though received the ultimate possible mercy of Srila Prabhupada, did not even attempt to understand him and follow him strictly but created a "cult" like environment though the Goals of ISKCON is not that. All these accusations here are reflection of such insincere people or people who never knew who SP was and what actually he spoke but only know him through some books, articles or some morning walk talks. On the other hand, those fortunate souls who sincerely followed him whether Indian or Westerner etc. they are still happy perusing the Krshna consciousness and you have thousands of example for that. If SP's philosophy is like Rain, the quality of the water that remains in the soil depends on the quality of the soil and how can anyone intelligent blame some of the muddy water as rain's fault?

2. SP is very simple and ask everyone who lived with him. He is sober and if you are not Sober, you cannot understand his soberness. Remember only great people can admire great people. An ant will never get to know the bravery of the lion or elephant. GV and ISKCON are not different but the newly blossomed schools or organizations under the guide of GV are not inline with GV itself. If some school is tailor made to please individual, that school is lost and the follower of such schools are completely lost. There is no authentic scholars or God brother in G Math who thinks or claims that ISKCON is preaching something which is not GV.

3. Landing SP in court? It is just an emotional threat like threatening a child. In America, there is no such law which prevents you from 'explaining' things even if they are evil in nature. If there is such law, most of the talk shows will be then banned. One of the mistakes some of the idiotic people do is, they take meanings by reading mere words and conclude that SP is this and SP is that and ISKCON is cult, belt etc. More than the language problems i believe such prejudiced fast foodies have severe problems with all the orthodox philosophy itself, emotionally and with their prejudice. These kind of over-sensitive reactions are very common to westerners and when you are at the gates of personally high demanding process, projecting your over sensitiveness only proves you that you are not sincere enough but a irresponsible show off who wants to "see" if there are any benefits by branding yourself under the "ISKCONite" or ex. label.

Though some of these are not your own accusations, i believe since u are broad casting it here means u also have faith or belief in these complaints.
Just some answers...


1. His Views Promoting Violence and Killing People to Attain His Goals
This particular blog post is so pathetic and height of stupidity and the one who understand that word "Kill" as physical killing of the person deserve nothing in the spiritual world. How can you kill someone 21 times if it is physical killing?? Come on, your brain will have to overwork or work more to figure out what this figurative talks means.


2. His Views Promoting Racism and Slavery
Really. The entire conversation which is not understood properly or taken in literal sense, yes it is slavery and racism but SP is not promoting your material ways of taking over one's life in terms of slavery or racism. He is talking about intellectual rights and he is also talking about non-intellectual being refrained from part of intellectual process. Have you ever wondered why the hell i choose some politician even though i do not even consider him fit for the job? Thats exactly what SP is talking about. The process of segregating people but not by their birth but by their intelligence, consciousness or awareness of spiritual truth. OH is it SP's idea. Not really. The same set of allegations are there on almost all the sages who preach(ed) in western world and Shri Vivekananda was also subjected to the same set of allegations. But these peanut brained people who compile such allegations do not know the fact that, even the great Chanakya's Artha Shastra makes it compulsory to segregate intellectual from Mudha and also recommends giving control for all the governing process to only intellectual. ( Oh i personally believe if alone intellectuals rule this country and govern everything, my life will be the happiest and i will be much more successful in my pursuit). In the sense of equality we are attempting to equalize everything because we do not even know what equality means. Does equality mean civil liberty? If it is YES, then SP totally agree with such civil liberty and MLK has his high respect for fighting for that. Does equality mean even though u are not even a 10th grade pass out or have any idea of what selfless life means but still be made a President and take charge of the fate of entire country? That is a big NO no and if your common sense agree with my line of thought here, SP's common sense is much more clearer and bigger than a foolish like me. Only if you begin to think and set aside all these prejudices which attracts u so much by the term "equality", then you will begin to understand SD as well as SP. ( This is not a defense of SP but it is also the explanation of the system and process that SD conveys about.)

3. His Support of Hitler
Haa haa. You know what? It is not SP's support for Hitler and it is just a selfish wording of the blogger. SP is sincerely pointing out the fact that, though it was Hitler's german who invented Nuclear bombs, what stopped such dictator, tyrant to use it? If you are in America, you may not like to read anything beyond what American media preached to you or made you believe. Of course, for you who are already made to believe few things of the past as "Fact", touching those facts with truth will be very racial for you. Do you think America didn't do any "Sin" by using Nuclear Bomb twice? and that too to experiment on the second time? So, the president of that time is still a sober person, saintly and upholding all his christian values?. If you have true answers to before statement, SP is just comparing that Sober saintly american with Hitler. You are just reading 'too' much in to few statements.



4. His Support of Antisemitism
It is again one more bold statement or title of the blogger with out real substance. He just said what Jews are in to but i think in today's context we can elaborate this to every political system where the name of God is used as a tool to rule over people. ( If you only know what Judaism, then only you can understand what SP has said here. Do not rush and make some judgments here before hand.) It is not antisemitism but it is about exploitation of "others" by so called Lovers of God or observers of God.

5. His Support of Homophobia
These are the topics where u have enough people on all four direction with various right or wrongs in their mind. So, whether SP supports it, shuns it or say it is demonic or it is going to doom your spiritual life, it doesn't matter to all those who already have some "opinion" on it. These are private conversation where someone who needed to know his opinion. What is forgotten here is, for a spiritual practitioner "sex" can be utilized only for procreation and if such rules stand high then where is the question of any other practice? Aren't they lust still and ruin your spiritual life? Or are you going to drum loud and bark again claiming they are pure expression of your love for other being? Being a Krshna consciousness person, SP's only known meaning of Love is Love for Krshna and everything else are of low taste only. Why would he please you by saying, all are nice and wonderful and go on and engage in all such sinful activities.? Why? Because i believe, you want such a great Saintly person to satisfy your lustful needs and you want to spiritualize it. Spiritualized Lust? How good it will be?

6. His Views Concerning Women
Another controversial topic. In one simple sentence, SP hold the view that the ultimate prema is possible only by Gopi's and so the woman form is the ultimate for enjoying such prema bhakthi. But, same time he cautions that, in general the woman who are not "spiritually" aware will not have certain qualities naturally. But, the whole feminist attitude is the cause of this kind of accusations believing that such great saint is partial, putting the woman down etc. He is putting the men down even more if they are not aware of their spiritual potency and do see that side also. If you count his opinions with numbers, he will be very much against the men than woman and then all the "admBrothers society" should start blaming him as anti men. Secondly, in Indian varnashrama system, there is no mundane grade of upper and lower. Here upper class is "upper" in terms of their spiritual awareness only and also spirituality as their duty. All the vaishnava schools admit this difference in our natural existence and then prescribe different "Sadhana" for different class of people and declare that such "Sadahana" though different for different class of people will result in the same Ultimate Goal. A sadhana prescribed for a Sudra is not and will not be same as the Sadhana prescribed for a Vaisya or Brahmana. Unlike the defensive pesudo saints who says, all are Same, all are same etc. SP is just talking about what is there is Vedic texts. If you want to contest on what Vedic texts says, we may have to take it up as a separate topic altogether to discuss. So, do not single out SP and create a bad scene here. All that he said are in fact truth and only someone who has no significant knowledge but immersed in "isolation" of life as equal rights of liberty will fall in to the traps of such kind of "feminism". If you cannot understand the statement man is Sun and the woman is Moon but see it as a bias towards one gender, then it is no point in discussing with such people about higher truths. Though Indian government etc. are trying to elevate woman with out knowing what is that, that require "elevation" in them. Mere 33% reservation in parliamentary seat etc. will not solve any problems. First of all, how many really know or aware of what are these "problems" we are trying to solve. More then mere fashion i do not think many are really aware of any natural problems and all the problems they have in their mind are actually either 'created" or "projected" is of my opinion.

7. His Views Concerning Women’s Education
Again what is Vedic system cannot be accused as short coming of SP. So most of the listed accuse here are accuse of Vedic system itself. Read this statement, "The husband will give instruction to the wife". This becomes highly unacceptable in the volatile society where the man woman relationship is so fragile and human is forced to live in isolation with the help of various government insurances. Vedic system gives only one insurance for woman which is insurance of Husband :). In our modern shallow life, we are seeking so many varieties to be pleased but we never find or figure out the reasons why we are not pleased. Do you honestly think that all your life problems are solved by your education so far? ( If you are a woman and if my statement here offended you please let me know your honest thoughts)

8. His Views Supporting Dictatorship as a Preferred Form of Governance
I can resonate with SP because i exactly believe in such Dictatorship. Only problem is usage of the word "dictator" cause it is so much of a negative word. Read this..."we can bring in such dictatorship, provided that dictator is perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious. ", " dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually.". What does that mean? Someone being Krshna conscious but a dictator? Instead of powerless PMs but though intelligent, it is good to have a very powerful President but with great compassion for human values and their well being. The American system is created with this vision and someone who is living in America is blaming this?? Imagine your president being Krshna conscious? The whole world will change positively but with out being Krshna conscious Americans are supplying weapons, spending vast human power in childish things in the name of war, religion, border etc.


9. His Views Promoting the “Moon Landing Hoax” Conspiracy Theory and Related Cosmological Vision
First of all, it was a very popular theory during those days. Secondly, more than expressing his faith in Hoax, he is actually concerned about the outcome of such endeavors. How many american or human today ask the question of "What benefit" did moon landing brought to human race so far? Why wouldn't you have such natural question coming to your mind? Isn't cause we are so much carried away by star wars and Cartoon central that we are dreaming the whole universe as something the cartoon channel project? Instead of living in such dreams, SP is asking you to be more rational and spend your time knowing your own house, own self before you invest so much hard labor is knowing outer space, outer selves! Personally i do not see anything wrong in his opinions and even the heading reads so sound and positive to me.

10. His Views Promoting the Idea that Women Enjoy Being Raped
This is again discussed in another thread positively. "Rape" as if u go by literal word is not what SP meant.



I am hesitant to to include this because there are criticism against GVism but I cant blame him because there are truth to some of the ideas.WOw... protecting GVism but not knowing little drops of what GVism is. Pseudo followers are none other than demonic and with out such demonic impressions in your mind, how would you have provided the link even after u said u are hesitant. Do not self destruct yourself and though i sound harsh (satay please forgive this line but keep it please), remember this line for rest your life.
"Do not take up something that does not suite you and definitely there is some process, some path that is available in this world to suite you, be it good or bad or demonic. Find yours what is it for you or create one such"


Hare Krishna.

( Though i am not the "Pathetic" apologist but a wounded sympathizer of SP and his great philosophy of Krshna consciousness and his unfortunate pseudo followers)

[Jivattatva]

I started replying to this thread but its getting late, so will post a long reply tomorrow.

Just a quick comment. Grames, to make your reply make sense, just prove that ISKCON was not a cult. This will save me time reading your posts. Besides that is the question we are trying to answer in this thread.

[grames]

Just a quick comment. Grames, to make your reply make sense, just prove that ISKCON was not a cult. This will save me time reading your posts. Besides that is the question we are trying to answer in this thread.

Great. First and foremost we all are getting carried away by branding and then furiously naming a spiritual organization as "this" that or cult, group etc. What is the purpose of doing such things in first place? I do not understand. There is no proper definition of 'cult' itself and if i take few meanings like unorthodoxy and small group i will just explain ISKCON does not fit in to any of these three.

1. Is ISKCON unorthodox or does not belong to any valid parampara of SD? I do not think so and i think there are million responses about what ISKCON is philosophically, and if GV is orthodox vaishnavaism then ISKCON also gets same credit and authenticity. Are there any ISKCON practices that are 'only' followed by ISKCON? I do not think so unless someone bring a point that ISKCON has something new which is not there in Vaishnavaism or for the matter of fact in general the practices of SD regardless of their school of philosophy.

2. Is ISKCON makes sense only to a small group of people? It is totally not true and ISKCON is one of the large organization having big mass of followers. This followership may not be purely on philosophical level but sometimes limited just to worship of that all attractive Krishna. Does it make ISKCON philosophy a private property for only few privileged. Never never. As SP says, the entire ISKCON philosophy lives and will live only through his books and nothing else and nothing else. Any bogus, insincere person claiming he is follower of SP but follow the practice of christians and atheists and propogate a new philosophy with aversion, hatred etc. do not represent ISKCON and it is not fault of ISKCON. It is not a military system where you have internal court to punish such bogus people. It is only people who can judge whether what they receive is original or fake and if u get attracted to fake or make a conclusion that fake is final, no one can help. If you want to know the authentic philosophy, practices etc. go and approach a proper Guru who follows SP and his books rather than some mental speculation and personally cooked idea.

Beyond these, if you want to point out certain regulations that ISKCON has like worshiping only Krshna etc. and want to urgently brand it as 'cult' practice, then i have to remind you that entire "vaishnava" system is like that. ISKCON people do worship all forms of Krshna but do not really worship other forms not for the reasons that they do not have any regard for other forms (devatas to be politically quiet here). ISKCON or even GV in its orthodoxy format propagates the RasaTattva rather than just Bhakthi in general. Some people refer this as "Pure Bhakthi" and do not get carried away by the prefix "pure". To establish the Pure Bhakthi towards that Ultimate person, the entire process of devotion is made focused on just Krshna and His expansions alone. ( Other devatas are not His direct expansion and all forms of Vaishnavaism has same tattva). Out of 32 Vidyas all schools of Vaishavaism hold Bhakthi towards Vishnu and His original forms alone as the fruitful method in this age of Kali which makes the practice of ISKCON as not unique method or position. Practice of Bhakthi or the Sadhana process is also not very different from other Vaishanava schools unlike some people here tend to believe.

What else you see as something not falling in to the age old practice of Vaishnavaism? If you have any, then we can consider even talking about it but with out any knowledge of what Vaishnavaism is or have any exposure to other schools of Vaishnavaism or even for that matter of fact the GV, it is very hard and difficult to overcome judgments of ignorant people. So, if you still want to continue concluding ISKCON as a cult, i personally have no issues at all and i am sure neither ISKCON or SP will.

[bhaktajan]

"The husband will give instruction to the wife". This becomes highly unacceptable in the volatile society where the man woman relationship is so fragile and human is forced to live in isolation with the help of various government insurances.

Gold Jerry! Gold I tell you!

[bhaktajan]

Vedic system gives only one insurance for woman which is insurance of Husband :).

Gold Jerry! Gold I tell you!

[bhaktajan]

In our modern shallow life, we are seeking so many varieties to be pleased but we never find or figure out the reasons why we are not pleased.

Do you honestly think that all your life problems are solved by your education so far?

Gold Jerry! Gold I tell you!

[bhaktajan]

The whole world will change "positively" ---[????] but, with out being Krshna consciousness, . . . the world will eat their mother's flesh***, and will also entice media watchers to do so religiously, as the media trend is now, to show foolish spokemen barking the salespitch.

Ie: Two pigs sit at a resturant table feasting on Pork.
The pig looks at the camera and says, 'Don't judge me'

This is giving the client what they want!

***Cows, and, by extention the bodies of the whole rainbow spectrum of similar sub-human species.

[smaranam]

Vedic system gives only one insurance for woman which is insurance of Husband :).



This is true , and accepting this alone is wise and brings peace even if the husband is too strict, a monster within non-fanatical limits, and the most unreasonable person in the world, who will not see reason.

SB 9.3.10 Cyavana Muni was very irritable, but since Sukanya had gotten him as her husband, she dealt with him carefully, according to his mood. Knowing his mind, she performed service to him without being bewildered.


*** If this is the case of insurance with a material husband, what kind of infinite eternal insurance would it be with The Spiritual Husband !

Shri Krshna Govinda Hare MurAre
He NAth NArAyana VAsudeva

[Jivattatva]

I never claim that I am an ISKCON nor GM follower. Why should I? I don’t like the **** they are into disparaging other GV lines especially our smaranam practice which you denigrate as sahajiyism.

You accuse me of not understanding the philosophy? What philosophy are you talking about? ISKCON’s christianized version of Gvism? Like the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha, or is it the fall of Adam and Eve from Eden? Bhaktivedanta Swami’s translations are unreliable and I’m not the first and last to say that.

Short History of GV in the west

1904 Baba Premananada Bharati. A Kolkata journalist, GV devotee was the very first to go to the west, England and U.S. to spread Krishna bhakti prema philosophy. In N.Y. he made disciples and during the 10 years that he was there wrote the book Sri Krishna the God of Love. (which I have a copy) (His stay in the U.S. was remarkable for its quiet success).

1933 Dr. Mahanambrata Bramachari. A Sanskrit scholar and GV philopher. Went to Chicago and gained his PhD. Delivered lectures presenting the truth and beauty of Krishna consciousness during the World Congress of Religion. He lectured in the Univ of Chicago and wrote discourses. Didnt stay long and went back to India to his samaj and inspired many disciples. (His was a quiet success too).

1966 Bhaktivedanta Swami , preacher . Made around 2 thousand disciples. Built 108 temples in 10 years. During his time incidents of disciples being taken back to parents by so-called cult deprogrammers. After death, all hells broke loose.

At least 7 murders, including the B. Swami-appointed GBC member sanyassi (celibate monk) whose head was chopped off by the husband of the woman he was having affairs with. Next, 90 children, as young as 4, who was physically, emotionally and sexually abused in the gurukulas mostly in India while their parents were living in the U.S. doing ISKCON’s foremost activity hassling people for money by selling books in a dubious way in the streets.

The Swami’s favourite disciple Kirtananda sentenced for 10 years (did 6 years, now out of jail) for racqueetering . Another one who spent time in jail for for illegal gun stockpiling and for shooting at a building. Maybe another 2, in jail for murdering their godbrothers. And there are more. These stories are in books and archived somewhere maybe online.

Why a stark contrast between the 3 personalities in regards as to their respective effect on their community of devotees?

The reason is simple. Bhativedanta Swami overextended his role as a spiritual teacher. Unlike Sri Bharati and Dr. Bramachari , B.S. structured homogenously (in the same way) the lives of his disciples. He gave a proforma one size fits all design whether the size fits or not. He meddled in their personal private lives.

Instead of sticking to just explaining what the spirit of the Gita was,and let his disciples apply it in their lives as they saw fit, he deprived them of the opportunity to exercise their God given faculties of reason.

He mandated that husband and wife sleep in separate bedrooms, sex should be once a month, and be done after chanting 60 rounds japa (approximately 4 – 5 hrs). He imposed a culture that is alien to the culture these hippies were born into (who were once steeped in drugs, sex, rock and roll), like arrange marriages. So some think ISKCON has the highest divorce rate in the world, 50%.

He established gurukulas in the west and in India as part of his varnashrama project. He sent children as young as 3, away to these gurukulas, even as the lila of Krishna Damodar and Mother Yasoda symbolized the very important aspect of bonding between young children with their parents especially their mothers. This is so that their mothers can focus on their high pressure dubious book selling.

I personally saw children as young as 4 being dragged awake at 4 AM everyday to have a shower to attend the morning temple program. Richard Dawkins would call this type of thing child abuse in the name of religion.

The Swami created a make believe reality of Us vs Them. Those outside of IKSCON were called materialist enjoyers and demons. The usual ISKCONspeak.

Even as Bhaktivedanta Swami himself had lived with his wife until when he was in his 50s, and had 12 children, don’t know if out of being like a zealout, naivette or hypocrisy, he encouraged hippies in their early 20’s barely out of their teens to take sanyass (vow of celibacy for monks). It’s as if a circus landed in Vrindaban when the ceremony started.

Then Madness, Murder and Abuse.

You asked why are all these linked to the Swami?
Children who were spoonfed all the time, were deprived of their basic independence to think for themselves and stand on their own two feet, will surely lost their way in the maze of the demands of life when their parents die. And that is the underlying principle.

The situation was aggravated by people sexually repressed , sanyass, grihastas; their frustrations turned into anger and so taken out on anyone, children, women, men. With anger deeply set, intelligence was lost. Helter , skelter, all sorts of bizarre behaviour. I personally heard many things but they are too vulgar to mention here in detail.

Of course, we have faith in Krishna that everything will turn out alright. But until we are subject to the laws of nature and we can not defy the law of gravity so should we use our common sense and reason in this phenomenal impermanent world.

As far as the Bhativedanta Swami’s social pronouncements. Grames, you can justify the Swami’s rants all you want. To me he is simply wrong to make haphazard judgments across the board on people. What if someone changes the word Jews or Black to Indians and throw it back to you. Would you like that?

Calling me a demon and pseudo Vaishnavas, frankly I don’t give a damn. The Lord in our hearts, the Paramatma, knows who we really are.

I will continue reading what i think will make me a better person and will strengthen my faith. Afterall if there is absolute truth, it would be the truth without a second. So anyone who has faith in God has some truth in her/him.

As the Bhagavad Gita says: As all surrender unto me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows my path in all respects, O son of Prtha.

I’ll leave you now while you wallow in your smug ignorance and group mentality. So Grames, was ISKCON a cult?

Jai RadhaKrishna

[grames]

Dear,

I am not accusing but stating the fact that all the things that u have listed are due to the bad followers who never attempted to know what "following" means. You are bringing in more controversial topics here for which i will not be much interested to respond.

ISKCON as per the wish of SP is not christianizing Krshna consciousness but continuing the flow of Vaishnava Dharma that was flowing for ages for dharmic people. What rules and regulations are prescribed for an initiated disciple is not even a subject matter to discuss in public for your information be it ISKCON or any Yogic schools of authentic Indian origin. It is the individuals responsibility to pick who they want as their guru and if the guru they find is not fit for their personal/spiritual improvement just move on and it is not considered sin.

People like you have this habit of defining how the process should be for your taste rather than how can follow the process that is proven to make your life successful as it was followed for ages. How can you dictate your wishes when the whole transformation is all about transforming you and elevating your consciousness to a higher spiritual life style? Tell me one good way of doing this. On the other hand, if every Authentic Guru in this world take every individual's wishes and then formulate a new age practice of Bhakthi, i still wonder whether it will please all and still be successful. It may be popular and i am sure you are aware that in the market such philosophies and spiritual practices are already available.

At the end of your message you said, Surrender to Lord but how are you going to surrender this big ego of yours where you are so displeased with the practice that is still followed by so many millions as one shoe fit all?? If you have to project your ego not knowing it as your hurdle instead of submissively shatter the strength of ego with the help of your Guru, Krshna's feet will be totally invisible forever. What are you going to surrender? Your bank balance? or Properties? Why do we still want to remain worthless when the doors of success is opened in front of us?

See, what you do not remember or even acknowledge is the fact that the Indian saints and sages who travel(ed) to USA and preach about God has nothing to gain anything political. What is SP's gain by putting somebody or some group or so called race down when he and his mission is all about just spreading Krshna and Love of Krshna? For an overlooked these kind of subtle points are hard to see and grasp and how will you know, with out him being so compassionate and loving, he couldn't have risked his movement by totally accepting people from all class and creed including hippies etc. Are you even aware that most of the Bhakthi schools be it Vaishavas or Shaivas do not accept fallen souls just like that.( I do not intend to open another controversy here but merely stating it for information).

It will be just thankless attitude of few who never realized the gift and mercy of Krshna that was showered on them through Bhakthi Vedanta swami and i am sure there will be at least one if not many who value such grace with high esteem. This fact require no debate or further proof.

Not all ISKCON initiated are Sanyasin and do not spread wrong information. Even his first set of disciples were married and taking up sannyasa was not forced on everyone as you tend to believe and spread your wrong belief as what happened in the past.

Though it is not justification for SP, it is just mere reinstatement of the true facts about him and SP doesn't require any justification for his personality, divinity and his vast ocean like compassion for fallen soul like hippies, Godless people of the west etc.

Putting aside all these and looking at the reality i wonder... if all these accuse is on SP but not on the bad followers, why the ISKCON is still..

1. Be able to run so many temples in virtually all the states in US
2. Be able to run temples across the globe
3. Be able to build new temples etc.
4. Be able to publish and sell his books and writings
5. Be able to have very good presence in India
5. Be able to still run Gurukuls across the globe
.... i can continue asking these questions. Is it due to the mercy of Krshna or is it jsut that ISKCON is still sucking money out of the pockets of the rich but spiritually weak?

Let me say this also with open heart. There are lot of things which are not straight still with GBC and associated ISKCON bodies. There are lot of practices that will be aversion to SP and his philosophy which ISKCON carry forward with excuses. Even my own dissatisfaction of such practices does not impart and should not impart any tinge of dirt to the holy feet of such a great Acharya Srila Prabupada and all such misdeeds are outcome of some selfish short coming of few bad followers alone. Keep this distinction very clear and that is the whole point for me to spend so much time explaining rather defending SP for those who wants to know the true spiritual side of ISKCON.

Hope you spend little time to understand what i am trying to communicate all this time with the above acknowledgment.

SP's feet is Krshna's feet!

Hare Krshna!

[keshava]

Jivatattva - please try to read quotes in context-to use peoples blogs where they present half truths is at best insincere at worst dishonest to prove a bias point.

Here's one form the so called harekrishnawomen blog

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced — February 14, 1977, Mayapura
"Prabhupada: Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."


Should blacks be kept as slaves thats what the author tries to make out. but if you look at the full conversation http://prabhupadabooks.com/index.php?g=163297

"Hari-śauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇa's time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...

Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.

Hari-śauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?


Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes."

Prabhupadas point is any one thats not educated should be controlled just like in varnashrama system and not given poer where they havent got the knwoledge but the knowledge is ipne to eveyone else they are uncultured and create a disturbance - he uses the black community as an example of what was happening in america as they were not even on a material level given sufficient education which resulted in alot of social problems. Then he says whites are also in need of education.


Here is another one for Bhagavad-gita 9.3 — Melbourne, April 21, 1976

The quoter misses out the conclusion in that talk that all aryans non aryans etc
" So long you do not understand that you are not this body, you are different from this body, you are Brahman, you are part and parcel of God, then your activities become different. Because at the present moment we are acting on the bodily concept of life. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Australian," "I am white," "I am black," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra," "I am this, that"—only this bodily concept of life. And the Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins when you are free from this bodily conception of life. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ."


When talking about the jews the conversation clarifies that they are all dangerous men if they are not worshippers of god. Prabhupada and his disciples are talking about history and what is said about diifferent wars that are happening in this world. The author only quotes one bit, and leaves out the part where prabhupada says that they are all bad stuck in duality and mental concotions of what is good or bad. If you dont know many of prabhupadas leading devotees where from jewish backgrounds, he allwoed all into the movement and even campaigned at Jagantha puri to let foriegn born devotees into the temple. A racisit does not do this.


Prabhupāda: Pakistan is finished, because the Bangladesh was supplying jute, rice, pan, great business.
Rāmeśvara: The government of Bangladesh was just murdered.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: They were all murdered.
Prabhupāda: It is due to this American CIA. Therefore I...
Rāmeśvara: Now they may again become lined up with Pakistan.
Prabhupāda: That is politics. Once you become strong; once I become... That is struggle. It will go on. You cannot stop.
Rāmeśvara: It's also commonly known that in the West the banks supplied money to Lenin to fight his revolution. They have no discrimination. If it seems like it is a good chance for making interest...
Prabhupāda: Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews.
Hari-śauri: Yes. They were controlling the economy. That was his one thing.
Prabhupāda: And they were supplying. They want interest money—"Never mind against our country." Therefore Hitler decided, "Kill all the Jews."
Rāmeśvara: These banks in the West, they supported Lenin. They made it possible to finance his revolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got money. The Jews have got money. They want to invest and get some profit. Their only interest is how to get money, no nationalism, no religion, nothing of the sort. Therefore it is not now; long, long ago... Therefore Shakespeare wrote "Shylock, the Jew."
Hari-śauri: Yes. "Shylock."
Prabhupāda: "One pound of flesh." The Jews were criticized long, long ago.
Hari-śauri: They were hated in the Middle Ages.
Rāmeśvara: America now has this policy that they will sell their guns to both sides.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, because they are doing business. So I am shopkeeper. Anyone pays, I shall... That is good.
Rāmeśvara: But no discrimination.
Prabhupāda: Why discrimination? I am selling. You come. Pay me. I shall give you.
Rāmeśvara: It's dangerous. They are promoting violence.
Prabhupāda: That dangerous in every item. This Gandhi was also dangerous, although superficially nonviolent. Everyone is dangerous. Until one is devotee, he's dangerous in any position. He's dangerous. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. It is mental concoction that "This is good; this is bad." Everything is bad.
Hari-śauri: Part of their policy for that, though, was because they supported the Israelis, and then the Arabs started to squeeze them on the oil, so they had to get friendly with the Arabs again. So they started to supply them arms.
Prabhupāda: They'll have to change because it is mano-dharma, mental concoction.
Rāmeśvara: Mano-dharma.
Prabhupāda: Mano-dharma means once you accept, "Good," and next moment you reject it, "Bad." This is mano-dharma. So that is going on. And therefore we have taken this vow that "Whatever Kṛṣṇa said, that is good, and everything bad. Bas. " Our confusion is finished.

If you are serious and sincere about real understanding then I suggest you read full quotes not things that confirm your hatred from anonymous bloggers picked out for a specific agenda.

[ScottMalaysia]

The Swami’s favourite disciple Kirtananda sentenced for 10 years (did 6 years, now out of jail) for racqueetering . Another one who spent time in jail for for illegal gun stockpiling and for shooting at a building. Maybe another 2, in jail for murdering their godbrothers. And there are more. These stories are in books and archived somewhere maybe online.

Kirtanananda was bludgeoned on the head by a crazed and distraught devotee with a heavy steel tamping tool during a New Vrindaban bricklaying marathon in 1985. It was only after this that he began to act strangely. The murders came after that.


The reason is simple. Bhativedanta Swami overextended his role as a spiritual teacher. Unlike Sri Bharati and Dr. Bramachari , B.S. structured homogenously (in the same way) the lives of his disciples. He gave a proforma one size fits all design whether the size fits or not. He meddled in their personal private lives. I agree.


He mandated that husband and wife sleep in separate bedrooms, sex should be once a month, and be done after chanting 60 rounds japa (approximately 4 – 5 hrs). The vast majority of Hindus do not engage in such practices. I don't even know if Gaudiya Math devotees do (although from what Narayana Maharaj said to me, I don't think they do)


He imposed a culture that is alien to the culture these hippies were born into (who were once steeped in drugs, sex, rock and roll), like arrange marriages. So some think ISKCON has the highest divorce rate in the world, 50%.Did Srila Prabhupada arrange marriages for his devotees?



The Swami created a make believe reality of Us vs Them. Those outside of IKSCON were called materialist enjoyers and demons. The usual ISKCONspeak.This is confirmed by Morris Yanoff's book Where is Joey? Lost Among the Hare Krishnas. Yanoff asked a devotee who a demon was. The devotee responded "Anyone who is not a devotee".

These guys have more respect for Christians than they do for other Hindus. They tell the Christians that they are worshipping the same God and that "If one loves Krishna, he must also love the Lord Jesus Christ". Yet they have a totally different attitude to Saivites, a denomination of their own faith - they call us "Mayavadis" and accuse us of worshipping demigods. When I told an ISKCON devotee that I was a Durga bhakta, she responded "Durga worships Krishna too".


I came across some ISKCON devotees on campus today at Clubs Day, advertising their yoga and meditation club. They did the usual routine, offering books to people and then asking for a donation "to cover the cost of printing". The Christian club nearby was giving out free New Testaments and they didn't ask me for a single cent. If the ISKCON devotees really want people to read their books, why don't they give them out for free like the Christians do?

[keshava]

The vast majority of Hindus do not engage in such practices. I don't even know if Gaudiya Math devotees do (although from what Narayana Maharaj said to me, I don't think they do)

The "vast majority of hindus" do different things amongst them selves there is no standard practice, every tradition has their own practice.



This is confirmed by Morris Yanoff's book Where is Joey? Lost Among the Hare Krishnas. Yanoff asked a devotee who a demon was. The devotee responded "Anyone who is not a devotee".

That doesnt mean anyone thats not a hare krishna that means anyone who is atheistic. Krishna talks about 4 types of demoniac people and tendancies in the gita.



These guys have more respect for Christians than they do for other Hindus. They tell the Christians that they are worshipping the same God and that "If one loves Krishna, he must also love the Lord Jesus Christ". Yet they have a totally different attitude to Saivites, a denomination of their own faith - they call us "Mayavadis" and accuse us of worshipping demigods. When I told an ISKCON devotee that I was a Durga bhakta, she responded "Durga worships Krishna too".

In terms of theistic conclusions people that believe in a personal god and the fact that you are not god are closer to vaishnavism than mayavadis who believe they are god.



I came across some ISKCON devotees on campus today at Clubs Day, advertising their yoga and meditation club. They did the usual routine, offering books to people and then asking for a donation "to cover the cost of printing". The Christian club nearby was giving out free New Testaments and they didn't ask me for a single cent. If the ISKCON devotees really want people to read their books, why don't they give them out for free like the Christians do?

If you want them given out for free then great Why dont you sponsor some (-:

[bhaktajan]

If the ISKCON devotees really want people to read their books, why don't they give them out for free like the Christians do?

"I have a Bible here for you, please take it, it is free of costs to you."

//or//

"I have a Bhagavad-gita here for you, please take it, it is Not free of costs to you."


So, which one is the costly commodity?
Which one would you rather be distributing and/or selling? It's your free choice.

"Why don't they give them out for free" [they are free, but only limitedly, and only at the sole discretion of the person with the bag of books to be distributed]

The question, "why don't they give them out for free" is an old question.
The answer goes, at least, all the way back to to 19th century [Bhaktisiddhanta said this] 'If you give it away fro free, they will think it is worthless and feel free to discard it.'

Multiple things are achieved by asking for donation:
Books & all related costs are paid for.
The donor has made donation to the Temple upkeep.
The devotee is reminded of the humility required to do his own job amongst those heading headfirst into the rat-race.

Anyway, I have personally sponsored a Thousand Euros to pay for Boxes of new Iskcon Gitas for distribution ---while I stayed home and watched Olympic Hockey.

It's never too late to get with the program, get up to speed and 'getter done'!

[bhaktajan]

Scott wrote:
He said that women are half as intelligent as men and shouldn't be given independence

No. What was explained was that both modern science and the Vedas both have documented that a woman's brain is smaller by weight than a mans.

Remember also, We use 5% of our brains to begin with.
And only bleach blonds become rich and famous while the rest look for employement like the rest of us.

[bhaktajan]

Scott wrote:
A few - maybe 5% of all women - enjoy showing themselves naked to the world. But they have a choice to do so. Rape is not a choice - it is something that is forced upon women.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I would like to do the math here:
Of the entire number of all the living females in the world,
let's say, 50% are over the age of 50 years old;

and then, let's say, 45% are of the age 19 and below;

Then that would leave 5%.

Hey Scott, how did you know it was approx 5%?

#####################################
Wait. I am wrong! The percentage is much smaller still!

Of the 5% ---half are obess and thus shy. Another percentage would be no pretty.

So, to just postulate, 2% of women are proper canidates . . . because they are the eligible Beautiful specimen of Woman that need not work a real job to survive . . . the rest of the women are for regular use.

[bhaktajan]

[quote=Jivattatva;40539]
the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha,
Bhaktivedanta Swami’s translations are unreliable
and I’m not the first and last to say that.


1966 Bhaktivedanta Swami , preacher . Made around 2 thousand disciples. [10,000 Disciples. No?] Built 108 temples in 10 years During his time incidents of disciples being taken back to parents by so-called cult deprogrammers [ISKCON explained to the world, How to recognise Bogus Yogis & Svengalis at a time when the "WEST" said, 'Don't trust anyone over 30 years old' ---while the rest of the world fought the Iron Curtain & the Khemer-rouge].

After death, all hells broke loose.
[I guess you not including the Iranian Take-over of the American Embassy in 1979; Or Carter's Presidency; or the Business Students receiving their MBA's twenty years before the bubble burst(s); Or mother's giving birth to fuuture Jihadis]

At least 7 murders, including the B. Swami-appointed GBC member sanyassi (celibate monk) whose head was chopped off by the husband of the woman he was having affairs with.
[Now that's asking for it. Talk about, 'The bigger they are, the Harder they fall'.]


Next, 90 children, as young as 4, who was physically, emotionally and sexually abused in the gurukulas mostly in India
[I'd like to know why, now 25 years later, with all the public support that could be had, this supposed headline still seems like myth.
Why has no one come forward to make a public condemnation of these past events?]


ISKCON’s foremost activity hassling people for money by selling books in a dubious way in the streets.
[You had a better business plan? I guess you have kept that to yourself. But, mocking others' means of making a living and "Spreading the Dharma" still seems profitable to your cause?]

The Swami’s favourite [Wrong! He was a thorn in his side from the beginning and still is!] disciple Kirtananda sentenced for 10 years (did 6 years, now out of jail) for racqueetering. [approx 1990 to 2000].

Another one who spent time in jail for for illegal gun stockpiling and for shooting at a building [Hamsadhuta He must be out by now. That event got him ex-communitcated in 1985].

Maybe another 2, in jail for murdering their godbrothers. [Tirtha is doing life for murdering a two devotees] He was caught and convicted and has ben in prison since 1985. He's been jailed for the past 25 years and counting]

And there are more.
[Actually there is no more ---or you would have mentioned the some of those good bits.]

These stories are in books and archived somewhere maybe online.
[Not the same as the "Vital Statistics" of your City/State/Country]

Bhativedanta Swami overextended his role as a spiritual teacher.
[His God Brother's said he was wasting his own time teaching the westerns.]

He gave a proforma one size fits all design whether the size fits or not.
[One Mankind, One Krishna, One Bhagavad-gita]

He meddled in their personal private lives.
[During the Vietnam War---There was a military Draft! Except for women.]

He deprived them of the opportunity to exercise their God given faculties of reason.
[May be they were all just too stupid to know any better. You know what those upper-middle-class-educated Americans are like!]

He mandated that husband and wife sleep in separate bedrooms,
sex should be once a month,
and be done after chanting 60 rounds japa (approximately 4 – 5 hrs).
He imposed a culture that is alien
to the culture these hippies were born into
(who were once steeped in drugs, sex, rock and roll),
like arrange marriages.
[This is a [I]kept secret in India Too? Or is it taboo even in the Kama-sutra?]

So some think ISKCON has the highest divorce rate in the world, 50%.
[So it was the Hare Krishnas who caused all those lawyers to afford the best schools for theirown kids?]

He established gurukulas in the west and in India as part of his varnashrama project.

He sent children as young as 3, away to these gurukulas ---so that their mothers can focus on their high pressure dubious book selling.
[Mother . . . !]

I personally saw children as young as 4 being dragged awake at 4 AM everyday to have a shower to attend the morning temple program.
[Wow, and they couldn't get to sleep the night before by 7pm or 8pm? And usually the 3 and 4 year old babies wake their sleeping parents].

The Swami created a make believe reality of Us vs Them.
[And then, the USA elected Obama ---It depends on how you define the word Election?]

Those outside of IKSCON were called materialist enjoyers and demons. The usual ISKCONspeak.
["ISKCONspeak" ---after so many years! I finaly heard this term! It's so cool! Of course, 'There is no ISKCONspeak issued forth before it's time or before the sloka is found to support it']


Even as Bhaktivedanta Swami himself had lived with his wife until when he was in his 50s, and had 12 children
[Four (4) Kids. He had four kids!]

I don’t know if out of being like a zealout, naivette or hypocrisy, he encouraged hippies in their early 20’s barely out of their teens to take sanyass (vow of celibacy for monks).
[Jivatattva, you have a point here! Yet too, it is best to know that some things, 'YOU DON"T KNOW WHY THEY HAPPEN']

Children who were spoonfed all the time,
[I saw them driving construction machinery too!]

were deprived of their basic independence to think for themselves and stand on their own two feet, will surely lost their way in the maze of the demands of life when their parents die.
[When did the parent(s) finally die??????????
How long did these kids need to be fed before they grabbed the spoon themselves?]


And that is the underlying principle.
[In some future life time you too Jivatattva can take birth during the forth coming years of Kali Yuga and try spreading Dharma in alien societies too. And we all have the best expectations for you and your efforts. God speed with that.]

The situation was aggravated by people sexually repressed
[Jivatattva, you have a point here!]

, sanyass, grihastas; their frustrations turned into anger and so taken out on anyone, children, women, men.
[Hornary ain't they]

With anger deeply set, intelligence was lost. Helter , skelter, all sorts of bizarre behaviour. I personally heard many things but they are too vulgar to mention here in detail.
[Hold your PMs --unless requested]

Of course, we have faith in Krishna that everything will turn out alright.
[So, you are an Optimist?]

To me he is simply wrong to make haphazard judgments across the board on people.
[Not the case with Tax forms and watercloset sizes]

What if someone changes the word Jews or Black to Indians and throw it back to you. Would you like that?
[Now, This is too esoteric.]

Calling me a demon and pseudo Vaishnavas, frankly I don’t give a damn.
[You have passed out all your damnations. Who is Frank?]

The Lord in our hearts, the Paramatma, knows who we really are.
[It is nice to make your acquaintance too.]

Afterall if there is absolute truth, it would be the truth without a second.
[You mean 'as-it-is?']


As the Bhagavad Gita says: As all surrender unto me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows my path in all respects, O son of Prtha.
[But you have found one Swami who didn't?]

Smug ignorance and group mentality.
[Like a University Dorm]

So Grames, was ISKCON a cult?
[Kirtananda formed his cult just after he was ex-communicated. That's all]

BTW, 'Sita sings the Blues' in the Ramayan epic is so full of similar heart ache and loose and self-gratification . . . the reader just must learn Who is who to understand what lessons are to be learnt and what errors are to be avoided.quote]

But why would it be ILLEGAL for me to execute the villains?
Why can't I take the law into my own hand as Judge, Jury & executioner?
Why can't I execute the villains? Why would I be later judged as a murderer? Why can't I do what I feel is Okay to do and execute the villians that ruined Iskcon's post-founding years?

I can't/shouldn't/shant because . . . IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I CAN'T TRESSPASS ON THEIR RIGHTS!

BTW, So the Taliban Gurus are now being sought out by the Our Country's Best because of false practices by false prophets which require a military clean-up.

Where do you claim Jivattatva that ISKCON keeps an un-clean household.

BTW, IMO, You have done a good service nonetheless, by revealing ISKCON's dirty laundry; for it has been discarded long ago . . . but it was indeed discarded after the good old days ended.
A sincere seeker will 'keep what is favorable for Bhakti-yoga; and, discard the rest'.

Now it is time to get back to work and see to the comfort of our fellow man.

"Do unto others what you would have done unto yourself" --An Indian Aphorism.

AGTSP,
Bhaktajan

[bhaktajan]

BTW, Institutional failures are not the same as an Organised Cult.

Jivattama, you wrote so much; Yet who was the cult members following?

Who was the Cult figurehead that all paid alliegences to?

You would be so correct in your assessment IF ONLY you had focused on the faultiness of following a CULT LEADER.

You have not written anything about the faultiness of following a CULT LEADER.

[bhaktajan]

Regarding RAPE:

SP was not endorsing rape.
He was explaining 'how to have male progeny . . . '
SP was taking to monks.
SP taught celebecy for monks and monkhood for old men and protection of women by the oldest male son.

SP explained that a woman prefers the Male to be strong and aggressive.
SP explained that it is legal in the west to divorce because a spouse refuses to engage in sex . . . but don't be fooled that the man must initiate the act when it is women that will allow it upon their whim.

Rape is aggression toward another ---there is Karma for this!!!!!
Celebate Monks being told 'Woman really like being MANHANDLED' ---was not to give away trade secrets but to let the monk know that his meek life-style is to be guarded against the urge to prove one's machismo.

A women should learn the power that she possesses that reduces a man to a begger.

A woman does know that powerfull men are truely powerful.

[ScottMalaysia]

"Why don't they give them out for free" [they are free, but only limitedly, and only at the sole discretion of the person with the bag of books to be distributed]

What exactly do you mean by this? They've been documented to approach people and say that they're handing out "free books". The book then doesn't turn out to be so free when they ask for a donation. I overheard one of the devotees on campus saying yesterday that the Bhagavad-Gita was $10 for students. One approached my in-laws outside a Kali temple in Malaysia and gave them a book. He then asked for 18 ringgit for it. If they want money for the books, they can at least say that they're selling them - they're not prohibited from selling the way the original book distributors in airports were. Also, if you don't give them what they consider to be enough, they prompt you to give more. "Most people give us $10".


The question, "why don't they give them out for free" is an old question.
The answer goes, at least, all the way back to to 19th century [Bhaktisiddhanta said this] 'If you give it away fro free, they will think it is worthless and feel free to discard it.'

Those who are interested won't think it is worthless and discard it. Far more people would read the books if they were given out for free. The way it is now, most people react to the devotees in the same way they react to a salesman knocking on their door and trying to sell them something.



Multiple things are achieved by asking for donation:
Books & all related costs are paid for.
The donor has made donation to the Temple upkeep.
The devotee is reminded of the humility required to do his own job amongst those heading headfirst into the rat-race.

Donations should be solicited separately, by people without books. Or the book distributors could at least say "Here, take this book. It's free. If you want to make a donation, that's good, but you don't have to. The book is totally free.'


Anyway, I have personally sponsored a Thousand Euros to pay for Boxes of new Iskcon Gitas for distribution ---while I stayed home and watched Olympic Hockey.

It's never too late to get with the program, get up to speed and 'getter done'!

If I had a good job with enough money to pay the bills and support my family, I wouldn't mind sponosoring the publication of some non-ISKCON Bhagavad-Gitas for people to read. I think it's an excellent spiritual message that can benefit everyone.

[bhaktajan]

Q. What exactly do you mean by this?
A. I have been "given free" sastra from many devotees over the years ---given to me because of friendship or simply due to lack of funds by bookdistribution devotees.

The "BOOKS" are "Sastra"! Where have you found that such "Sastras" are so commonly available?

Those who are interested won't think it is worthless and discard it. Far more people would read the books if they were given out for free.
Hey are you a marketing research expert?
Why are private school education cost more and share a better reputation for smarter kids than Public Schools Systems? Get it? You get what you pay for ---and yes it costs money.
I have related the reasoning that has worked and IS STILL DONE TODAY!
Politicians hand out fliers to passerby on their way to work ---and they are tossed on the ground.
The money sought from book distribution:
1] Built the temples.
2] was preformed by Volunteers ---those living in the Temple who were "MADE OF THE RIGHT STUFF" could volunteer to do book [Sastra] distribution, thus the name for such 'Service' was called "Sankirtan" [the sanskrit term usually used for, 'congregational devotional (bhajan) singing'] ---those who came forward to do public distribution were those who were 'Expert in Preaching skills'. All full-time temple residents are made humble by the self-less work done those who spend the entire day away from the temple alone with a sack of Books seeking donations one -on-one while practicing the most esoteric preaching skill-sets ever revealed to history.

[B]Donations should be solicited separately, by people without books. Or the book distributors could at least say "Here, take this book. It's free. If you want to make a donation, that's good, but you don't have to. The book is totally free.'
If you can crunch the numbers in a world of real mathmatics you may be on the tip of the Iceburg of unlimited wealth.
But, alas, 2+2 will only equal 4. And that's how the numbers add up.

If catholic schools were free, all the Muslim children would attend there.
If All the Public schools were free, all the citisens would stop complaining about higher school taxes ---but public schools must be paid for by all citisens with and without children of their own. That is how it works.

If I had a good job with enough money to pay the bills
WHO'S THE NEW BOSS? JUST LIKE THE OLD BOSS?

I wouldn't mind sponosoring the publication of some non-ISKCON Bhagavad-Gitas for people
Is this a new radical idea of your own? No.

[ranjeetmore]

I don't have any issues with SP except :

1) jeeva fell from Vaikuntha.
2) some his disciples are a joke and the biggest insult to Chaitanya deva's philosophy.

[bhaktajan]

I don't have any issues with SP except :

1) Jiva fell from Vaikuntha.
2) some of his disciples are a joke and the biggest insult to Chaitanya deva's philosophy.


Here is the test of ISKCON disciples who were a joke and the biggest insult to Chaitanya deva's philosophy:

Next time you are around an ISKCON Temple ask someone if they ever heard of 'so & so disciple'.

And, are you sure there are not bigger insults to Chaitanya deva's philosophy? I think there are NOT.
For Chaitanya deva's movement to fail requires fools from inside the movement.