Do Advaitas Practice Bhakti??

[Tirisilex]

Do the Advaita practice Bhakti??

[grames]

Yes but not as the ultimate Goal :).


Do the Advaita practice Bhakti??

[smaranam]

Namaste Tirisilex

While this may seem true in many cases , we are assuming bhakti here (in the OP) means the outward practice.

1. Bhakti is devotion, whose umbrella covers a whole set of values , virtues and qualities.
A dedicated, sincere and loving elementary school teacher is practicing Bhakti which appears as Karma Yoga.
I see there are authorities on Advaita here that persistently and patiently resolve people's doubts, again and again, using Veda pramAN, Upanishads , Gita etc. They consciously make time to come here. I see bhakti in them. The folder called "Advaita" on HDF shows shravanam kirtanam Vishnoh smaranam

2. Saint DnyAneshwar MahArAj elaborates on Krshna's description of Bhakta

DnyAneshwari (expansion of Bh. Gita by St. Dnyaneshwar)
FOR BG 12.16 <---> Dny. Ovee 172 to 189 - with reference to Goal of Advaita


O Arjuna, the one who has no desires, feels no need, whose existence itself is blissful...
In the association of Saints, one is liberated in this very life. Climbing the HimAlayas is dangerous , but there is no danger in the company of saints. In their heart , is infinite love, much bigger than the HimAlay.

The river Ganga is all pure (pavitra), yet there is a fear of drowning. In the company of Saints there is no fear of any kind.

Just as the space - AkAsh encompasses everything (vyApak) and is indifferent to the happenings in the world (udAseen), the mind of the bhakta , being in union with Brahman (bramharUp), is renounced (udAseen) and desires to do nothing or know nothing.

Just as the Sun is pure inside out, he is pure inside out and always satisfied, in a pleasant mood. While working he lacks the ego (abhimAn) that "I am the doer".

THAT devotee reached the limit of "I am That Brahman" in the spirit (bhAv) of sameness (sAmyAvasthA), and has become complete by reaching the other shore of duality (dvait).

There is no room for duality in his mind, yet keeps the minimum duality and enjoys the bliss of devotion to Me. He divides his heart into two compartments. To one he gives My name (for Me to dwell) and stays in the other half.

Such devotees become My hobby (chhanda). That bhakta is the object of My meditation. I gain satisfaction only if I meet him.
I have to take various kinds of forms for his sake. I have to descend (avatAr) in Sagun form. He is so dear to Me that I feel like protecting him from all evils.

Next, BG 12.17 , ovee 190 - 196 ..... Who has himself become this Universe in the form of Brahman, because of which he perceives no duality, who does not acrue effects - samskAr of good/bad karma just as the day/night cannot be perceived in the Sun ......


--------

The corresponding Gita background for reference :



Adweshtaa sarvabhootaanaam maitrah karuna eva cha;
Nirmamo nirahankaarah samaduhkhasukhah kshamee.
13. He who hates no creature, who is friendly and compassionate to all, who is free from attachment and egoism, balanced in pleasure and pain, and forgiving,

Santushtah satatam yogee yataatmaa dridhanishchayah;
Mayyarpitamanobuddhiryo madbhaktah sa me priyah.
14. Ever content, steady in meditation, possessed of firm conviction, self-controlled, with mind and intellect dedicated to Me, he, My devotee, is dear to Me.

Yasmaannodwijate loko lokaannodwijate cha yah;
Harshaamarshabhayodwegairmukto yah sa cha me priyah.
15. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, and who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety-he is dear to Me.

Anapekshah shuchirdaksha udaaseeno gatavyathah;
Sarvaarambhaparityaagee yo madbhaktah sa me priyah.
16. He who is free from wants, pure, expert, unconcerned, and untroubled, renouncing all undertakings or commencements-he who is (thus) devoted to Me, is dear to Me.

Yona hrishyati na dweshti na shochati na kaangkshati;
Shubhaashubhaparityaagee bhaktimaan yah sa me priyah.
17. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, and who is full of devotion, is dear to Me.

Samah shatrau cha mitre cha tathaa maanaapamaanayoh;
Sheetoshnasukhaduhkheshu samah sangavivarjitah.
18. He who is the same to foe and friend, and in honour and dishonour, who is the same in cold and heat and in pleasure and pain, who is free from attachment,

Tulyanindaastutirmaunee santushto yena kenachit:
Aniketah sthiramatir bhaktimaan me priyo narah.
19. He to whom censure and praise are equal, who is silent, content with anything, homeless, of a steady mind, and full of devotion-that man is dear to Me.

Ye tu dharmyaamritamidam yathoktam paryupaasate;
Shraddhadhaanaah matparamaa bhaktaaste'teeva me priyaah.
20. They verily who follow this immortal Dharma (doctrine or law) as described above, endowed with faith, regarding Me as their supreme goal, they, the devotees, are exceedingly dear to Me.


praNAm

[kd gupta]

Do the Advaita practice Bhakti??

Namaste Tirisilex , if you understand hindi then pl try to listen the wordings of this bhajan...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiEKmXPZTZY

[Tirisilex]

I dont know Hindi :eek:

[smaranam]

Namaste,


if you understand hindi then pl try to listen the wordings of this bhajan...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiEKmXPZTZY

Thank You Guptaji, nice bhajan, as always.

QUOTE : "But I don't understand Hindi"


Here is what the video says in short -

The purple lines are the lyrics.
The blue ink shows comments by the KirtankAr - Agarwalji.



Krshna has become my friend, my life, and heart.

We perform puja , worship with something in mind, desires, wishes.
Are we worshipping Krshna , or our own wishes ?

Teri puja na karu muze koi shauk nahi
Lekin ye mere vash me nahi ki mai mohobbat na karu

I may not perform any worship to you , but its just not possible to stop loving You.


We fear Ishwar, thinking He may not be pleased by something we do
But why fear Him ? The Dear One keeps smiling.
Its our wishes that instill fear,

So we worship our wishes, not God,
We fear , not God, but the possibility of the wishes not being fulfilled .

But at one point, we have to overcome all selfishness :

I left all the oppulences of the world, because the heart that was in the world (materialism) is now with You

He Gopal Radha Krshna Govind Govind



This bhajan emphasizes avyabhichari bhakti , selfless devotion, natural bhakti for the sake of bhakti. Love of God stage in other words, where the devotion is effortless, not for a purpose, to gain something.

However, how can one reach this stage without Krshna's help ? So , the prayer "Krshna , please help me overcome selfishness, attachments, wants, fears, worldliness so I may be the best for you, a clean slate, an empty flute , so that I may serve You in the best way"

This prayer , is again asking for something, but that asking is called a "spiritual desire"

We cannot jump to the desireless state unless we keep spiritual desire. What is the difference ? Spiritual desire is desire for KRshna's happiness, not ours. Krshna is God, why would He lack anything so that our action add to His happiness ?

It means desire to be that empty flute so Krshna can play it the way He wants, not on our terms.

Bottom Line, following His msg , what He wants us to do and be, is an auspicious goal.
Material desires - vAsanas, keep us bound to samsAr (worldly life cycle, embodied existence).

This spiritual desire is what VedAnta calls "mumukshatva". Desire for liberation from birth and death is a spiritual desire. ( Some may disagree on the technicalities of this, calling liberation or mumukshatva a material desire. )

How is mumukshatva equivalent to desiring what Krshna wants i.e. spiritual desire ?
Because what Krshna wants is for us , not Him.
And when liberated, we act 100% for Him[-and-His-Universe-which-is-Him], not for us.
This mutual tug-of-war brings union of jiva with Krshna.


What does Advaita VedAnta have to do with this ?

>Unless one sees the same VAsudev (Krshna), the same Self in all beings, and pervading this Universe,
>one is not acting, breathing, living for Krshna,
>whether we consider Krshna as
His form,
as His teachings,
as all Shastra (Veda, Upanishad, Bh. Gita, S. BhAgvat ..... ) ,
as the Principle He stands for,
His Supreme Adorable Personality,
His desire [for the Jagat - Universe] ,
as one's own Self,
or all of the above.
>Since there is no difference between anything on this list.


Jai Shri Krshna

[kd gupta]

Thank you brother Smaranam
Well done .

[smaranam]

sister :) ... although it hardly matters because -

1. Please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AHBSi2_Dpc&NR=1
Mano buddhya-hankara chittani naham
Na cha shrotra jihve, na cha ghrana netre
Na cha vyoma bhumirna tejo na vayuhu
Chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham ......

2. We are all sisters, as we are Prakrti, He alone is Purusha - the One who is busy today spraying colours from a pichkAri.

Your Shri AgarwalJi is amazing, and it was an honour and my pleasure to discuss this bhajan.

praNAm

[ranjeetmore]

Do the Advaita practice Bhakti??


They have to.

A jeeva is not powerful to overcome Mahan and Prakriti on his own merit.He needs the grace of brahm.


Binu Hari Kripa na pai sak,gyanihun Brahm Gyan.
Brahm akarta Ved kah,sochahun manahin sujan.

Without the grace of a Personal Form of God (Sri KRsna,Sri Ram,Sri Durga,Sri Shiva,Sri Narayan.)gyanis cannot recieve the divine knowledge of formless Brahm.The vedas state Brahm cannot perform action.This being the case he cannot bestow His grace on the gyani.

- 49. Bhakti shatak - By Jagadguru Sri Kripaluji Maharaj.

[atanu]

They have to.

A jeeva is not powerful to overcome Mahan and Prakriti on his own merit.He needs the grace of brahm.


Binu Hari Kripa na pai sak,gyanihun Brahm Gyan.
Brahm akarta Ved kah,sochahun manahin sujan.

Without the grace of a Personal Form of God (Sri KRsna,Sri Ram,Sri Durga,Sri Shiva,Sri Narayan.)gyanis cannot recieve the divine knowledge of formless Brahm.The vedas state Brahm cannot perform action.This being the case he cannot bestow His grace on the gyani.

- 49. Bhakti shatak - By Jagadguru Sri Kripaluji Maharaj.

Why should Brahman in the first place withdraw grace? The grace is never absent. Mind purifies itself to uncover that grace.

However, it is true that in vyavahrika, all, including the gods, have to worship through saguna Brahman, which is not different from akarta Brahman. Even Supreme Being manifests here using His own prakriti.

Om

[Ekanta]

From Viveka Cūḍāmaṇi (Ādi Śaṅkara)
mokṣa-kāraṇa-sāmagryāṃ bhaktir eva garīyasī |
sva-svarūpa-'nusandhānaṃ bhaktir ity abhidhīyate ||
31. Among the instruments of liberation, devotion stands supreme, and it is the search for one's own true nature that is meant by devotion.

From Nārada Bhakti Sūtra:
sā tv asmin parama-prema-rūpā
2. But that is of the nature of supreme love [parama-prema] for It (God). [note that the word "asmin" is used of God, i.e. "this", "in this"]

amṛta-svarūpā ca
3. It is of the nature of immortality [amṛta] too.

anyāśrayāṇāṃ tyāgo ’nanyatā
10. Unification [ananyatā] is the giving up of all other support.

anirvacanīyaṃ prema-svarūpam
51. It (bhakti) is of the nature of indescribable pure love [prema].

guṇa-rahitaṃ kāmanā-rahitaṃ pratikṣaṇa-vardhamānam avicchinnaṃ sūkṣma-taram anubhava-rūpam
54. It is beyond the guṇas [guṇa rahitam], untouched by desire, increasing every moment, unbroken, extremely subtle, of the nature of personal experience.

śānti-rūpāt paramānanda-rūpāc ca
60. Also because it (bhakti) is of the nature of peace [śānti] and of the nature of supreme bliss [parama-ānanda].


As I understand it:
Bhakti is the best means for liberation (shankara himself says so).

"Parā-bhakti" (higher bhakti) is also the goal since ananya (no other), guṇa rahitam (beyond the guṇas), immortality (amṛta), supreme bliss (parama-ānanda) etc can only mean advaita.

(plz correct me if I'm wrong)

[kallol]

People talk of different margs and paths. Most probably in reality, it is not so.

Path might be one but people, being unique, ate at different point of time, space and experience in the spiritual journey.

If I start a PhD work, my guide gives me a topic of research. I have two ways. Develop faith and devotion in the subject & Guide or develop non belief in the subject and Guide.

The results are different for the two mindsets. The first one enables one to further explore through initial hard work (not knowing much about what is happening) and then slowly getting insight about the knowledge and get into the core. This path increases the faith and devotion throughout and as one moves into the knowledge zone it increases rapidly.

The other path always deters one from hardwork and it is slow and painful journey.

Same is the case of the spiritual journey. The faith and devotion is the Bhakti which is the backbone of the path without which the journey through the Karma yoga (hard work) and Gyana yoga (knowledge part) will not be possible. The bhakti (belief, faith and devotion) is the platform or framework in which the Karma Yoga and Gyana yoga is dependent.

Understanding God, this life and creation phenomenon is not a simple thing and is meant for the best minds. So to groom the laymen for this, the path is through developing bhakti (temples, demi gods, gurus, scriptures, rituals, etc.) and then moving them through sakama bhakti and karma, then niskama bhakti and karma. Once one crosses this then the mind is conditioned for taking in pure knowledge form all places. The Gyana yoga starts. And this is supposed to be the end point of what one can achieve.

Though the ISCKON devotees apparently follow Bhakti Yoga, but in reality they use this platform / framework to study the Bhagavatam, Geeta, Upanishads, etc. Initially it will be greek to them and will be limited to just belief but slowly those knowledge will sink in and get assimilated - which helps them to move to the knowledge zone.

So path is one - Bhakti is the base or the boat which helps us through the karma yoga and then to the gyana yoga.

Advaita is nothing different from this

Love and best wishes

[Ao]

So to groom the laymen for this, the path is through developing bhakti (temples, demi gods, gurus, scriptures, rituals, etc.) and then moving them through sakama bhakti and karma, then niskama bhakti and karma. Once one crosses this then the mind is conditioned for taking in pure knowledge form all places.



Interesting and thought-provoking post, Kallol. Quick question though: What is the difference between sakama bhakti and niskama bhakti?

Thanks!

[kallol]

Interesting and thought-provoking post, Kallol. Quick question though: What is the difference between sakama bhakti and niskama bhakti?

Thanks!

Thanks.

Sakama Bhakti is a bhakti with expectations of returns. Like I will do a puja if my son gets this or my business grows or I get this order.

This is what you will find mostly.

Niskama Bhakti is a bhakti with no expectations but pure devotion.

Same you have in Karma - Sakama Karma and Niskama Karma.

Karma with expectations - Sakama Karma

Karma without expectations - Niskama Karma

Love and best wishes

[Tirisilex]

So.. Is it wrong to pray to Krishna?

[kallol]

So.. Is it wrong to pray to Krishna?


Surely not !!!!

[Tirisilex]

Isn't that expectations though??

[Onkara]

Isn't that expectations though??

Hi Tirsilex
My understanding from the posts above is that the most steady and satisfying worship is Niskama Bhakti, which is "a bhakti with no expectations but pure devotion."

Does that mean expectations are wrong? No. Does it mean praying with expectations is wrong? No. Why? Because expectations are natural and normal and Lord Krishna already knows my expectations and needs.

Is there a pang of conscience when I ask the Lord for something? Yes, this sensation is a reminder that what I have was already given to "me" by Him and I am reminded that I am indeed grateful for all I have, in the same way I see others who may have less and feel both pitty and also guilty that I should see them as less (those who have less should not be judged as less by me, in my understanding, as it assumes I have achieved something, when in fact it was all God given anyway). So keeping this in mind I simply worship the One Lord knowing that all I do, have and will have will be right, that for me is Niskama Bhakti, and through it the natural noose from the Gunas of my expectations and desires loosens and I merge with His bliss.

[kallol]

Isn't that expectations though??

It is not a point where we can be overnight. It is a path we need to traverse. All are at different points. I do not pray to Krishna or others but others might. That does not mean one is right other is wrong.

It is the journey of the spiritual path covering different milestones and the end point of which is moksha. There is no winner no loser. Some one is fast and some one is slow but all of us are on the same path.

Whatever activities will increase your bhakti - do. If it means to start with sakama bhakti - do. Graduate to niskama. Start with sakama karma - graduate to niskama. Graduate to knowledge - learn, analyse and assimilate.

It is the quest for knowledge from class KG to Masters. We cannot say class 8 is wrong and class 12 is right. All are in the path and all are required. Through different lives we move towards the same goal. Some fail, some pass, some move faster some slower but all towards the same goal.

Love and best wishes

[Ao]

Thanks.

Sakama Bhakti is a bhakti with expectations of returns. Like I will do a puja if my son gets this or my business grows or I get this order.

This is what you will find mostly.

Niskama Bhakti is a bhakti with no expectations but pure devotion.

Same you have in Karma - Sakama Karma and Niskama Karma.

Karma with expectations - Sakama Karma

Karma without expectations - Niskama Karma

Love and best wishes

An important distinction, thanks for the explanation. I sometimes feel a bit overwhelmed by all the terms!

Also, thanks for your follow-up posts and for Snip's as well. Things are definitely getting clearer for me. :)