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smaranam
26 February 2010, 12:02 PM
Namaste

No, not another one of those threads I promise :)

This conversation :

A: Shiva is the Chief Vaishnav

B: Wrong ! Read the Shiv PurAn

Can't A and B be both right , although their love for their respective Deity makes this a sweet Leela ?

SadAshiv, Shiv, Shankar is ParaBrahman in one form, but its His pleasure to be the Chief Vaishnav !

Just as its a pleasure for ShriHari who is ParaBrahman PArameshwar to be the Chief Shaiva !

Because they are the same One taking forms to please different devotees.

Did you know that .....
I have seen the Aarati Om Jaya Jagadish Hare being sung to Shiv Shankar as well as Shri Hari ? In movies, videos , although it was composed for Shri Vishnu/Krshna by one of His devotees.


Jai Gopeshwar MahAdev
Om Namah Shivaya
Om Namo Bhagavate VAsudevAya

bhaktajan
26 February 2010, 12:16 PM
Shiva & Balarama are one and the same.

bhaktajan
26 February 2010, 12:18 PM
The Chief Vaishnava is the path for all Yogis.

Who else would that Chief be, other than Shiva?

A Vaishnava would say it.

smaranam
26 February 2010, 12:26 PM
The Chief Vaishnava is the path for all Yogis.

Who else would that Chief be, other than Shiva?

A Vaishnava would say it.

That does make a lot of sense. Lord Shiva has indeed

1. shown the way of Supreme Bhakti towards Shri Hari by setting an example Himself, and

2. shown the way of Jnana to realize the Supreme.

praNAm

bhaktajan
26 February 2010, 12:37 PM
Lord Shiva has indeed:

1. shown the way of Supreme Bhakti towards Shri Hari by setting an example Himself, and

2. shown the way of Jnana to realize the Supreme.


Yes, you have just enlightened me to this point.

You do realise that you have posted, Shiva was . . . "shown".
This alludes to 'by whom' was Shiva shown something?

In all casses these pastimes where first preformed for the benefit & pleasure & behest of those involved; it is an 'after-effect' that the narrations where recorded and set-the-standard for all the world to pursue.

smaranam
26 February 2010, 12:41 PM
You do realise that you have posted, Shiva was . . . "shown".
This alludes to 'by whom' was Shiva shown something?


I said Shiva HAS shown the way


That does make a lot of sense. Lord Shiva has indeed

1. shown the way of Supreme Bhakti towards Shri Hari by setting an example Himself, and

2. shown the way of Jnana to realize the Supreme.

praNAm


In any case there is nothing wrong in saying Krshna = Vishnu + Shiva , as long as 'Krshna' is taken in the right light - Brahman, ParaBrahman, both formless and with form, as well as beyond form and formless,
intentionally "looks" different to different people.

Gist : He is a lot more than form.

Now if I may excuse myself from this thread I started :)

bhaktajan
28 February 2010, 04:10 PM
Yes, Prabhu. I spoke too soon, "Lord Shiva has indeed shown . . ." is what you wrote.

But, "He is a lot more than form." Makes to sense to me.

Do you mean to say that some yogis are satistied with something other than HIS form??

smaranam
28 February 2010, 04:51 PM
But, "He is a lot more than form." Makes to sense to me.

Do you mean to say that some yogis are satistied with something other than HIS form??

praNAm Prabhu,

Neither am I very experienced nor shastra-learned , but by "more than form" I meant ... not "other than form" , rather something beyond and in addition to, which can be best expressed by some Shvetasvatara Up. verses I just read in another thread :

IV-20: His form does not stand within the range of the senses. No one perceives Him with the eye. Those who know Him through the faculty of intuition as thus seated in their heart, become immortal.





I-12: This is to be known as eternally existing in one’s own self. Indeed, there is nothing to be known beyond this. As a result of meditation the enjoyer, the enjoyed and the power which brings about the enjoyment – all are declared to be the three aspects of Brahman.


II-15: When the Yogin realizes the truth of Brahman, through the perception of the truth of Atman in this body as a self-luminous entity, then, knowing the Divinity as unborn, eternal and free from all the modifications of Prakriti, he is freed from all sins.


IV-18: When ignorance is dispelled, there is neither day nor night, neither being nor non-being. There is only that Auspicious One who is imperishable, and who is worthy of being adored by the creator. From Him has proceeded the ancient wisdom.


IV-20: His form does not stand within the range of the senses. No one perceives Him with the eye. Those who know Him through the faculty of intuition as thus seated in their heart, become immortal.

devotee
28 February 2010, 08:28 PM
Namaste Smaranam,

There have been few Ram devotee Vaishnava like Goswami Tulsidas who wished to see Lord Rama's form even in a Lord Krishna's temple ... & his wish was granted.

Tulsidas wrote a beautiful Stotram in praise of Lord Shiva, called Rudrashtakam which you must be aware of. This vaishnava par excellence, in his this poem addresses Lord Shiva with these words :

Nirvaan rupam (liberation incarnate) , Brahman, The Vedas's form (Incarnate of the Vedas ... the Knowledge itself), Nirguna (beyond all qualities), Nirvikalpam (there is no alternative like him), chidakaash (the all pervading consciousness), Moolam (the root of all), Tureeyam (the unconditioned state of Brahman/Self) ....

Is there anything/anyone which/who is higher than Shiva ?

OM

bhaktajan
28 February 2010, 11:10 PM
smaranam,

You have posted satric injunctions attesting to the "lot more than His form".


When you said, "He is a lot more than form."
And I said to this, "This Makes no sense to me."

My inquiery is,
"Do you mean to say that some yogis are satistied with something other than HIS form?"

When by way of meditation, brahman can be realised; and then, the later the spirit soul present in all other living beings can be realised; and then, Bhagavan's Form can be approached in service . . . why would some yogis are satistied with something other than HIS form?

If you meet Bhagavan, will you request darshan of His formless glories?

ranjeetmore
01 March 2010, 07:49 AM
Namaste Smaranam,



Tulsidas wrote a beautiful Stotram in praise of Lord Shiva, called Rudrashtakam which you must be aware of. This vaishnava par excellence, in his this poem addresses Lord Shiva with these words :

Nirvaan rupam (liberation incarnate) , Brahman, The Vedas's form (Incarnate of the Vedas ... the Knowledge itself), Nirguna (beyond all qualities), Nirvikalpam (there is no alternative like him), chidakaash (the all pervading consciousness), Moolam (the root of all), Tureeyam (the unconditioned state of Brahman/Self) ....

Is there anything/anyone which/who is higher than Shiva ?

OM

Tulsidasa had such great fortune that Shankara Himself projected Ramcharitmanas into his mind.
So,Tulsidasa is one those few Mahatmas who are All-knowing in the true sense of the word.

Tulsidasa was clear on one subject : He strongly condemns yoga,gyana,tapas,karma-kaanda,siddhi-praapti,etc as sadhanas.

He strongly adheres to the fact that only Bhakti of a Personal Form of God will Cause His kripa shakti to eliminate maya.
This is the siddhanta of the upanishads too.

Tulsidasa falls in the line of exceptional personalities like Gauranga Mahaprabhu,Nimbarakacharya,etc. who believe that the Leela Forms of God (Sri KRsna,Sri Ramachandra) are the Ultimate Cause of all Causes and even worshipable by the three Omnipotent forms of God : Durga,Shiva and Narayana.

And how Befitting it is that Bhagavan would be so simple as to have a flute in hand as opposed to a trident or mace !

smaranam
01 March 2010, 10:17 AM
praNAm



If you meet Bhagavan, will you request darshan of His formless glories?

I do not request for anything, just go where He takes me. I only ask for one thing - that may He drive and lead , and never leave. He laughs at the ignorance in that statement, and says He will never leave.

In any case, no special darshan is required of His formless glories isn't it ?
Even if He does give the Turya Darshan on His own, one can always come out of it.

Perhaps this thread was not a good idea. My only point was , that Lord Shiva can be more than happy to be the Chief Vaishnav even though He is Brahman. So Shaivas should not take it the wrong way.

smaranam
01 March 2010, 10:57 AM
Tulsidas wrote a beautiful Stotram in praise of Lord Shiva, called Rudrashtakam which you must be aware of. This vaishnava par excellence, in his this poem addresses Lord Shiva with these words :

Nirvaan rupam (liberation incarnate) , Brahman, The Vedas's form (Incarnate of the Vedas ... the Knowledge itself), Nirguna (beyond all qualities), Nirvikalpam (there is no alternative like him), chidakaash (the all pervading consciousness), Moolam (the root of all), Tureeyam (the unconditioned state of Brahman/Self) ....


simply beautiful :)