Does killing a body damage the soul?

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

Here's the background: One of my best friends who is a devout Roman Catholic is currently in a spiritual crisis. He is doubting Catholicism, and is fed up with priests telling him what to do and everything being a sin. He has had these types of experiences in the past. About a year ago he almost converted to Islam. He converted to Catholicism a few years ago and was a non-practicing Protestant as well as a pagan before converting. He has since said that he will either be a Catholic or a pagan.

He started talking to me about reincarnation and I explained to him how it makes a lot of sense that we have many lives and many chances to be united with God, not just one life like in Christianity. We also talked about the numerous studies of people, often small children, who remember their past lives. He was fascinated and deeply interested in that. We also talked about souls, and how every living thing has a soul. He said how that makes sense and that's what believed before he converted to Catholicism.

I also tried to discredit Christianity to him. He knows that I respect the core teachings of Christianity and the teachings of Christ, but I also have problems with Christianity. I pointed out to him contradictions in the Bible as well as some stark similarities between Hinduism and Christianity, especially Krishna and Christ. He seemed pretty interested in that, but he pointed the conversation back toward reincarnation and souls and then we came to the topic of this post :)


Here's the topic: I was explaining to him how reincarnation makes sense to me and how every living thing has a soul by saying how us humans are animals. We are superior and more intelligent than the rest, but ultimately we are still animals and we are classified as animals. We live and have souls just as every other animal lives and has a soul. Therefore, we should respect all life and not kill animals. He said how he agreed that all animals have souls, but that we are allowed to kill them in order to survive. (We had a heated discussion several months ago over vegetarianism and how the human body is not designed to eat meat, which he nor I wanted to get into again) He asked me why killing animals is wrong if the animal's soul will just move on. I said that killing animals damages the animal's soul as well as your own for ending its life prematurely. He asked me if I believe a soul can be damaged by something physical. I wasn't sure what to say so I just said that the act of killing can damage a soul and a soul can be damaged but not destroyed. I asked him what he thinks happens to souls when a human kills an animal. He said how the souls would just move on. I said how I don't believe that the soul is perfect and it can't be damaged. I said it definitely could be damaged, just not destroyed. He said that since it's spirit, it can't be damaged by something physical but it could be damaged by something spiritual. I asked him what is the argument against murder then? He said how humans kill animals in order to eat and survive, but man does not kill man in order to eat him and survive, therefore the murderer's soul would be damaged, but not the victim's. (Remember, we didn't want to get back into the whole conversation about how humans aren't supposed to eat meat) I pointed out to him how he therefore believes that the soul can be damaged by something physical (murder), and he said the soul would be damaged by the spiritual aspect of it and not the physical action itself.

So, the question is: When somebody murders another person, is the victim's soul damaged? We both agreed that the murderer's soul would be damaged, but what about the victim? I thought that the victim's soul would be damaged as well and the soul would move down. The murderer's soul would be damaged even more. That's why killing is such a bad thing, because it negatively affects all that are involved. He seemed to think that the victim's soul would just "move on" presumably to a higher form.

I know that there are many viewpoints in Hinduism and I will probably get different answers to the question, but I just want to know what you all think. Also, please pray for my friend that he may find spiritual comfort, wherever that may lay.

Hare Krishna

[ScottMalaysia]

The answer to your question is found in the Bhagavad-Gita.

Know that to be verily indestructible by which all this is pervaded [the soul]. None can effect the destruction of the Immutable. (Bhagavad-Gita 2:17)

The Atman [soul] is neither born nor does It die. Coming into being and ceasing to be do not take place in It. Unborn, eternal, constant and ancient, It is not killed when the body is slain. (2:20)

Weapons do not cleave the Atman, fire burns It not, water wets It not, wind dries It not. (2:23)

From these verses it is clear that the soul is not material and cannot be harmed or damaged by anything material. However, I'm not sure if negative karma is created for the soul being killed. I read somewhere that if you kill yourself, your soul will remain on earth as a ghost for as long as you would have naturally lived.

For arguments against meat-eating, see Section 6 of (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/wih/pdf/wih_sec6.pdf)What is Hinduism? (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/wih/pdf/wih_sec6.pdf) from the Himalayan Academy.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Ramakrishna:

You certainly dug yourself into an interesting debate there. Your friend is clearly on the path, as he is wondering, which is a first step, I would think.

From my particular POV, the murdered soul would not accrue any more karma, and the action was because of previous karmas.

Having said that, the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was. Rebirth or rather, the soul's ability to choose another body may be hampered if it was particularly violent. When we cross over at death, the idea would be to have a clear consciousness. In a couple of cases, this doesn't happen. One is violent death, and the other is a very confused state of mind, such as that from extreme alcoholism. In this case a soul may hover about and be so confused as to not recognise a suitable body so claim a dog's body for example. I personally don't believe in souls evolving upward through bodies. I believe in different types of souls, though, just as there are different types of devas, or extraterrestrial beings for that matter.

But that is kind of off topic. The net result beyond linear time would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path. That does not mean I'm going for a walk on the freeway, or I am suggesting you do.

Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

namaskar,
As far as I know, soul cannot be 'damaged' or 'destroyed' or 'spoiled'. However, somehow the vasanas from previous births get carried forward to the next birth. I believe the vasanas carry themselves like some sort of 'imprints' like the footprints in the sand...

So to kill a body will not damage the soul but will carry the karmic debt and vasana forward with the killer in his next birth.

I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.

Perhaps I am not making sense here so I will stop here...

[proudhindu]

I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.



There was a scientific study by stevenson that supports your contention:

[Eastern Mind]

I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.

Perhaps I am not making sense here so I will stop here...

Vannakkam Satay: This makes total sense to me. (Also because of personal experience.) The First nations peoples also looked at birthmarks. A certain birthmark might mean how the person died in their last life. We also had a personal experience with this and one of my children.)

Now this is way off topic... But here's a question... do you or any of your relatives watch Hockey Night in Canada .. Punjabi version?

For othesr.. the multiculturalism is so deep in this country that the great Canadian sport called Ice hockey (Field hockey on ice with skates..using a flat rubber thing called a puck instead of a ball.. for the Indians here) is broadcast nationally on Punjabi TV. complete with announcers and all. So our National past time has 3 groups of announcers.. English, French, and Punjabi. I think its great.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

From my particular POV, the murdered soul would not accrue any more karma, and the action was because of previous karmas.

Having said that, the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was. Rebirth or rather, the soul's ability to choose another body may be hampered if it was particularly violent. When we cross over at death, the idea would be to have a clear consciousness. In a couple of cases, this doesn't happen. One is violent death, and the other is a very confused state of mind, such as that from extreme alcoholism. In this case a soul may hover about and be so confused as to not recognise a suitable body so claim a dog's body for example.

The net result beyond linear time would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path.


Namaste Eastern Mind,

When you say "the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was", are you referring to the murdered soul? The murder would hamper the clear consciousness that is ideal at the end of life, so wouldn't be a way of damaging the soul?

It seems then that a murder would indeed harm a soul, but then you say that the net result would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path? Would the murder be "helpful on the path" because it is working out bad karma? But then it still hampers the path since there is no clear consciousness at the end of life?

[Ramakrishna]

namaskar,
As far as I know, soul cannot be 'damaged' or 'destroyed' or 'spoiled'. However, somehow the vasanas from previous births get carried forward to the next birth. I believe the vasanas carry themselves like some sort of 'imprints' like the footprints in the sand...

So to kill a body will not damage the soul but will carry the karmic debt and vasana forward with the killer in his next birth.

I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.

Perhaps I am not making sense here so I will stop here...

Namaste satay,

That is an excellent point. I guess it wouldn't be right to say that a soul gets damaged, but rather it accumulates bad karma. Wrong actions will not damage or harm the soul, but instead it gets "karmic debt" for the soul, right?

Also, I realize that the killer's soul will have to pay off karmic debt for the murder, but what about the victim's soul? Will the victim's soul be harmed in any way, in the sense that it would have to pay off karmic debt as well?

That is also very interesting that diseases get carried forward to the next life. Would the diseases keep on getting carried over until all the karmic debt is payed off? That actually makes a lot of sense.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste Eastern Mind,

When you say "the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was", are you referring to the murdered soul? The murder would hamper the clear consciousness that is ideal at the end of life, so wouldn't be a way of damaging the soul?

It seems then that a murder would indeed harm a soul, but then you say that the net result would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path? Would the murder be "helpful on the path" because it is working out bad karma? But then it still hampers the path since there is no clear consciousness at the end of life?

Vannakkam Ramakrishna: From the mountaintop perspective there is no good or bad, harm etc. By carrying stuff, I mean fears or signs, more like Satay's example of diseases. It may be harmful to the physical body in the next birth, but who is to say if it is harmful to the soul? For example, I know of a person who was a lineman in his last life. This person carries two irrational fears (more than the average person) into this life: one is of the fear of height, and another is the fear of electricity. But I don't see how either may be harmful to the soul.

By 'helpful on the path' yes, I did mean it was a karmic release. We have discussed karma in detail here on HDF, and at least for me the conclusion was that it's fairly complicated.

Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

namaskar,

Well, if we read the Gita we find that it clearly states that the soul or atma doesn't get damaged or even affected. Or at least that's my understanding. Others feel free to correct me.

The karmic debt or impressions or vasanas travel with the soul somehow. Not sure how though. I think it has something to do with citta and mind stuff. It carries the impressions from past lives. I read a paper on this once but I can't find it now. It was written by an advaitin professor. It explained beautifully the basic process.

I don't know what happens to the victim's soul. I suppose nothing. But what happens to the impressions in citta or mind stuff of the victim? I don't know. I suppose it carries some impressions there for sure or removes some previous ones due to karma. Not sure... It's a mystery.

Regarding, disease and in fact what Eastern said about body marks, it is true. I have personal experience with this. I truly believe that body marks and diseases and sometimes the seed of disease gets carried forward from ones previous birth. Not only that, I also think that our favourite tastes and interests travel forward with us too. For example, in my previous life if I liked let's say a certain dish or food very much, the vasana for that food traveled with me to this life. Again this is all based on personal experience and I have no way to prove any of it. Nor do I care if someone agrees with me or not.


Namaste satay,

That is an excellent point. I guess it wouldn't be right to say that a soul gets damaged, but rather it accumulates bad karma. Wrong actions will not damage or harm the soul, but instead it gets "karmic debt" for the soul, right?

Also, I realize that the killer's soul will have to pay off karmic debt for the murder, but what about the victim's soul? Will the victim's soul be harmed in any way, in the sense that it would have to pay off karmic debt as well?

That is also very interesting that diseases get carried forward to the next life. Would the diseases keep on getting carried over until all the karmic debt is payed off? That actually makes a lot of sense.

[Ramakrishna]

namaskar,

Well, if we read the Gita we find that it clearly states that the soul or atma doesn't get damaged or even affected. Or at least that's my understanding. Others feel free to correct me.

The karmic debt or impressions or vasanas travel with the soul somehow. Not sure how though. I think it has something to do with citta and mind stuff. It carries the impressions from past lives. I read a paper on this once but I can't find it now. It was written by an advaitin professor. It explained beautifully the basic process.

I don't know what happens to the victim's soul. I suppose nothing. But what happens to the impressions in citta or mind stuff of the victim? I don't know. I suppose it carries some impressions there for sure or removes some previous ones due to karma. Not sure... It's a mystery.

Regarding, disease and in fact what Eastern said about body marks, it is true. I have personal experience with this. I truly believe that body marks and diseases and sometimes the seed of disease gets carried forward from ones previous birth. Not only that, I also think that our favourite tastes and interests travel forward with us too. For example, in my previous life if I liked let's say a certain dish or food very much, the vasana for that food traveled with me to this life. Again this is all based on personal experience and I have no way to prove any of it. Nor do I care if someone agrees with me or not.

Namaste satay,

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. The soul does not get damaged or affected, but the karmic debts and vasanas travel with the soul to the next life.

So, I guess I was wrong to tell my friend that the soul would get damaged. I should have explained more about karma to him, since that ties into reincarnation and the atman. I'm not sure what paganism (which he's leaning towards) says about karma. The soul would just have to pay off karmic debts and it wouldn't be 'damaged' in the sense of it being harmed. I gave him a wrong impression of Hinduism, and I must remember to correct myself the next time I talk to him :o

[satay]

I will find that paper and post it here.

Namaste satay,

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. The soul does not get damaged or affected, but the karmic debts and vasanas travel with the soul to the next life.

[Jivattatva]

There was a scientific study by stevenson that supports your contention:


I would be interested to know more about this study.

[proudhindu]

I would be interested to know more about this study.

Stevenson, Ian: Reincarnation and Biology:

Brief commentary on the book:
http://survival-research.net/library/bookreviews/pastlifestudies/stevensonreincarnationandbiology.html

The correlation between bullet wounds and birth marks offer a convincing evidence.

[ScottMalaysia]

Namaste satay,

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. The soul does not get damaged or affected, but the karmic debts and vasanas travel with the soul to the next life.

So, I guess I was wrong to tell my friend that the soul would get damaged. I should have explained more about karma to him, since that ties into reincarnation and the atman.

I will provide a link to some that I scanned from the book "Hinduism For Students" by Gomathi Thiruvasagam.

The Journey of the Soul - Part 1 (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Gc_6Wg1PpVhZYteX78w89Q?feat=directlink)
The Journey of the Soul - Part 2 (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SJ-xWSdWWqMSZ6RGOSs7ZA?feat=directlink)
Reincarnation (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KyhgkzEevKKmRYS6DJvBEg?feat=directlink)

This book provides a good introduction to Saivite Hinduism, however it doesn't seem to be available outside Malaysia. I tried scanning some of it and making it a Publisher file, but when converted to PDF it made no sense unless printed double sided. These pages detail the journey of the soul from start to liberation.


I'm not sure what paganism (which he's leaning towards) says about karma. The soul would just have to pay off karmic debts and it wouldn't be 'damaged' in the sense of it being harmed. I gave him a wrong impression of Hinduism, and I must remember to correct myself the next time I talk to him :o

"Paganism" is a very broad term which has meant different things to different people at different times. The Church defines "paganism" as any religion that is not Christianity, Judaism or Islam (all these religions share a common father figure in Abraham). The modern use of the word "Paganism" refers to nature-based religions like Wicca and Asatru, that believe in various gods and practice magic. I think most pagans do believe in reincarnation, but as they don't have any scriptures, they don't have details on it. They believe that we have a soul and that the soul leaves the body at death and takes another body. They call this the "spiral of rebirth".

[Ramakrishna]

I will provide a link to some that I scanned from the book "Hinduism For Students" by Gomathi Thiruvasagam.

The Journey of the Soul - Part 1 (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Gc_6Wg1PpVhZYteX78w89Q?feat=directlink)
The Journey of the Soul - Part 2 (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SJ-xWSdWWqMSZ6RGOSs7ZA?feat=directlink)
Reincarnation (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KyhgkzEevKKmRYS6DJvBEg?feat=directlink)

This book provides a good introduction to Saivite Hinduism, however it doesn't seem to be available outside Malaysia. I tried scanning some of it and making it a Publisher file, but when converted to PDF it made no sense unless printed double sided. These pages detail the journey of the soul from start to liberation.



"Paganism" is a very broad term which has meant different things to different people at different times. The Church defines "paganism" as any religion that is not Christianity, Judaism or Islam (all these religions share a common father figure in Abraham). The modern use of the word "Paganism" refers to nature-based religions like Wicca and Asatru, that believe in various gods and practice magic. I think most pagans do believe in reincarnation, but as they don't have any scriptures, they don't have details on it. They believe that we have a soul and that the soul leaves the body at death and takes another body. They call this the "spiral of rebirth".

Namaste Scott,

Thank you for those links. I'll be sure to check them out.

The type of paganism that my friend is looking into is Celtic paganism, the religion of his ancestors before they were converted to Christianity. I actually talked to him today about the beliefs of Celtic paganism. He said the Wikipedia page about it is very accurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_paganism). They do believe in reincarnation but not karma in the Hindu sense. If a person murders somebody then that soul would be "set back" in the next life in a lower life form or something, but they don't believe in the full concept of karma like Hindus do. He said that Celtic paganism basically believes that the world is good and there is no concept of salvation or moksha. He said there isn't even really a concept of sin, the goal is to just live a gracious life and die an honorable death. He noticed how Celtic paganism and paganism in general has many similarities with Hinduism: reincarnation, connection with nature, belief that plants and animals have souls, etc.

I think he may end up remaining Catholic, though. He has gone through phases in the past when he became disillusioned with the Catholic Church, like the time last year when he almost converted to Islam and several months ago he was thinking about converting back to paganism. But usually those phases last a short time before he ends up returning fully to the Church and becoming a devout Catholic again. Right now though he is really confused and disillusioned. Please pray for him.

[ScottMalaysia]

I think he may end up remaining Catholic, though. He has gone through phases in the past when he became disillusioned with the Catholic Church, like the time last year when he almost converted to Islam and several months ago he was thinking about converting back to paganism. But usually those phases last a short time before he ends up returning fully to the Church and becoming a devout Catholic again. Right now though he is really confused and disillusioned. Please pray for him.

If he's interested in Catholicism, tell him to go to a Tridentine Mass. This is the old Mass said in Latin and in a very different way to the modern Catholic Mass. He may very well find what he's looking for there. Tridentine Masses are offered by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (http://www.fssp.org), the Society of St. Pius X (http://www.sspx.org), the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (http://www.institute-christ-king.org/home/), and (rarer) by normal parish priests at various parishes. If he's under 40, he'll have never had a chance to see the old Mass and it may keep his faith strong in Catholicism.

[Eastern Mind]

The correlation between bullet wounds and birth marks offer a convincing evidence.


Vannakkam: Someone I know well, had a patch of different coloured hair (grey on black) on the side of head at birth. It went away after about a year. The previous life was ended by a blow to the head.

There are tons of examples. All you have to do is look for them. Good to see someone has put a book together, but who needs proof when its blatantly obvious? The doubts are there because Europeans and Abrahamics doubt it, and spread this doubt along with others as a way to ensure Hindus lose faith. Reincarnation is a core belief. Unshakable.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

If he's interested in Catholicism, tell him to go to a Tridentine Mass. This is the old Mass said in Latin and in a very different way to the modern Catholic Mass. He may very well find what he's looking for there. Tridentine Masses are offered by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (http://www.fssp.org), the Society of St. Pius X (http://www.sspx.org), the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (http://www.institute-christ-king.org/home/), and (rarer) by normal parish priests at various parishes. If he's under 40, he'll have never had a chance to see the old Mass and it may keep his faith strong in Catholicism.

Wow, he actually goes to the Tridentine Mass! He calls himself a traditionalist Catholic and rails against "modernism" in the Church. He is a member of the Society of St. Pius X and he attends the Tridentine Mass that they offer at a local parish. He despises the Novus Ordo Mass, which is the modern mass that most Catholic churches have switched to since the Second Vatican Council. He attended a few of them initially when he first converted before switching to the Tridentine Mass. He now says he can never go back to the Novus Ordo Mass. He is a very traditionalist Catholic.

[grames]

We will be playing God's role if we know the answer for the question. :)

But, we know only one thing for sure is that Atman never get 'changed' and Scott and others already gave BG ref. What happens with the Atman's karma etc. are not easily predictable.

[devotee]

Namaste RK, Scott, Satay and all,

Killing a person doesn't harm the person's soul. There is no doubt about it. The Jivaatma/soul can be harmed by its own karmas (manasa, vaachaa, karmanaa) ... and no one else's Karma. Regarding soul carrying diseases/tendencies from one birth to other .... the explanation is given below :

The soul while leaving this body carries with it the Samskaars (the impressions of past karmas) due to ignorance of being bound with its form/thoughts. My Guru ji says that basically our thoughts are behind these bondage. Why is a man sick most of the time ... why a man attracts certain type of disease ... why a man carries a lot of anger ... why is a man very peaceful & cannot be easily perturbed ... etc. etc. ??? This is because of the habits we keep developing in various lifetimes ... this habit is carried from one lifetime to the other & unless the person consciously decides & makes effort to change his habit he falls into an unending cycles of such births (that is why Lord Krishna says, "I throw such people again and again in lower yonis). A man contracts a disease as he is in habit of behaving in such a manner which may cause that disease in the body ... he may have carried this tendency from his past life. That is why you may find some people having diabetes/BP/heart disease for seemingly none of their faults sometimes. Similarly, our degree of attraction to sex, taste, form, smell is all developed consciously by us & we get bound to them & carry it again to another life. Our being careless, being a disciplined person, being religious or non-religious, truthful or a fraud, a thief, being successful or unsuccessful, being rich or poor ... etc.etc. is all decided by our own karmas/tendencies developed by us consciously in this life or earlier ones.

That also shows the way to break this horrible and painful cycle ... we must strive hard to change all our bad habits consciously working towards it. Whatever we are today is only because of our own Karmas & the way out of this mess created by us can be found only through our own Karmas. For getting rid of all Karmas, there is no way but to burn all Karmas in the fire of Jnana which comes through various means.

OM

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste RK, Scott, Satay and all,

Killing a person doesn't harm the person's soul. There is no doubt about it. The Jivaatma/soul can be harmed by its own karmas (manasa, vaachaa, karmanaa) ... and no one else's Karma. Regarding soul carrying diseases/tendencies from one birth to other .... the explanation is given below :

The soul while leaving this body carries with it the Samskaars (the impressions of past karmas) due to ignorance of being bound with its form/thoughts. My Guru ji says that basically our thoughts are behind these bondage. Why is a man sick most of the time ... why a man attracts certain type of disease ... why a man carries a lot of anger ... why is a man very peaceful & cannot be easily perturbed ... etc. etc. ??? This is because of the habits we keep developing in various lifetimes ... this habit is carried from one lifetime to the other & unless the person consciously decides & makes effort to change his habit he falls into an unending cycles of such births (that is why Lord Krishna says, "I throw such people again and again in lower yonis). A man contracts a disease as he is in habit of behaving in such a manner which may cause that disease in the body ... he may have carried this tendency from his past life. That is why you may find some people having diabetes/BP/heart disease for seemingly none of their faults sometimes. Similarly, our degree of attraction to sex, taste, form, smell is all developed consciously by us & we get bound to them & carry it again to another life. Our being careless, being a disciplined person, being religious or non-religious, truthful or a fraud, a thief, being successful or unsuccessful, being rich or poor ... etc.etc. is all decided by our own karmas/tendencies developed by us consciously in this life or earlier ones.

That also shows the way to break this horrible and painful cycle ... we must strive hard to change all our bad habits consciously working towards it. Whatever we are today is only because of our own Karmas & the way out of this mess created by us can be found only through our own Karmas. For getting rid of all Karmas, there is no way but to burn all Karmas in the fire of Jnana which comes through various means.

OM

Namaste devotee,

Thank you very much for that explanation, it really makes sense. A person's soul is only affected by that person's karma, and no one else's. Therefore I guess it would be safe to say that the soul of a person who was murdered would just "move on" in the sense that it had payed off karmic debt. However, as Eastern Mind, Satay, and others have said, the soul's next physical body or consciousness may bear marks of the murder.

[ScottMalaysia]

Wow, he actually goes to the Tridentine Mass! He calls himself a traditionalist Catholic and rails against "modernism" in the Church. He is a member of the Society of St. Pius X and he attends the Tridentine Mass that they offer at a local parish. He despises the Novus Ordo Mass, which is the modern mass that most Catholic churches have switched to since the Second Vatican Council. He attended a few of them initially when he first converted before switching to the Tridentine Mass. He now says he can never go back to the Novus Ordo Mass. He is a very traditionalist Catholic.

Interesting. Most traditionalists are opposed to ecumenism - that is, dialogue with other religions and finding common ground. The Catholic Church condemned ecumenism until Vatican II (which had no power to change previous doctrine as it was simply a pastoral council) and denounced all other religions as false.

To show you just how close-minded most traditionalist Catholics are, I'll post a quote from the Catechism of St. Pius X:

32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
[I]A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.


33 Q. Why does the [Catholic] Church forbid Protestant Bibles?
A. The Church forbids Protestant Bibles because, either they have been altered and contain errors, or not having her approbation and footnotes explaining the obscure meanings, they may be harmful to the Faith. It is for that same reason that the Church even forbids translations of the Holy Scriptures already approved by her which have been reprinted without the footnotes approved by her.

Now we see just how close-minded Catholics were before Vatican II, and how most traditionalist Catholics have continued this mindset. I mean, they are not allowed to own copies of their own Scriptures that have been translated by another group. It would be like a Hindu saying that any translations of Bhagavad-Gita except (name version) should be burnt or handed in to the local Hindu priest.

Tell your friend that Hinduism doesn't say that only Hindus are saved and that he can be saved by following Catholicism. However, if he wants to convert because he sincerely likes Hinduism and agrees with his teachings, then he should make a decision to follow it rather than just exploring it. If he states that he believes in Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu or whatever Ishta-devata he wishes to follow then he has automatically excommunicated himself from the Catholic Church (canon law states that apostates, heretics and schismatics are automatically excommunicated).

[atanu]

Namaste Friends,

I have read the thread with interest. The following is my POV.

Soul and Atman connote two different aspects. Atman is immutable, unchangeable, beyond tainting by karma, beyond burning or cutting and is non-different from Brahman. Purusha, the soul however may be the purna Atman, in a Jnani or may lead to creation of the lowest criminal when so infested with a particular Guna (Though Purusha itself is not infested at all). Guna-s are said to be in the Heart as various colored serums, surrounding the Purusha. These are basically desires of various colours, IMO.

Purusha Vidya is taught, that the thumb sized Purusha seated in the Heart is All this -- the full Universe and all animate and inanimate matter. Basically. Purusha in the Heart evolves a Mind (MAHAT), whose MODIFICATION is this Universe.

Further in Purusha Vidya the following is taught:

Chandogya U.
III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless.


If a man while dying, can remember that "Purusha thou art the imperishable, thou art the unchangeable" ----- all karma will be dissolved.


The above is one extreme ultimate case which will endow salvation. The other extreme is that the Man being murdered dies with fear or hatred for the murderer (which may be the most natural reaction in Mind). In such a case, this Man will re-incarnate to take revenge or to murder.

Anything can happen between these two end points. Grames, I think, was correct that God will know.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Ramakrishna]

Interesting. Most traditionalists are opposed to ecumenism - that is, dialogue with other religions and finding common ground. The Catholic Church condemned ecumenism until Vatican II (which had no power to change previous doctrine as it was simply a pastoral council) and denounced all other religions as false.

To show you just how close-minded most traditionalist Catholics are, I'll post a quote from the Catechism of St. Pius X:

32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
[I]A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.


33 Q. Why does the [Catholic] Church forbid Protestant Bibles?
A. The Church forbids Protestant Bibles because, either they have been altered and contain errors, or not having her approbation and footnotes explaining the obscure meanings, they may be harmful to the Faith. It is for that same reason that the Church even forbids translations of the Holy Scriptures already approved by her which have been reprinted without the footnotes approved by her.

Now we see just how close-minded Catholics were before Vatican II, and how most traditionalist Catholics have continued this mindset. I mean, they are not allowed to own copies of their own Scriptures that have been translated by another group. It would be like a Hindu saying that any translations of Bhagavad-Gita except (name version) should be burnt or handed in to the local Hindu priest.

Tell your friend that Hinduism doesn't say that only Hindus are saved and that he can be saved by following Catholicism. However, if he wants to convert because he sincerely likes Hinduism and agrees with his teachings, then he should make a decision to follow it rather than just exploring it. If he states that he believes in Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu or whatever Ishta-devata he wishes to follow then he has automatically excommunicated himself from the Catholic Church (canon law states that apostates, heretics and schismatics are automatically excommunicated).

Yeah, my friend and I have spent hours discussing theology over the past few years. He says that he adheres to the Church doctrine: There is no salvation outside the Church. He agrees that Christ is necessary for salvation, but one does not have to be Christian to achieve salvation. I think he said if somebody has a sincere desire to do God's will and lives a good life of grace then Christ may lead that person to heaven, even if that person does not accept Christ as their savior. Therefore your salvation would still be going through Christ, but you don't have to be Christian. He says a lot of his fellow traditionalists disagree with him on this belief, and they believe that anybody who is not a Catholic is damned to hell. Sometimes from the things he says it seems like he thinks that as well, and he could have just been saying that thing about Christ leading a person to heaven so he could be nice to me and not imply that I was going to hell.

One thing I thought of and asked him recently was if a person lives a life of grace, doesn't lie, doesn't cheat, doesn't steal, loves his neighbor as he loves himself, and has a sincere desire to do God's will and reach God, but doesn't accept Christ as his savior (but still accepts his teachings), could that person end up in purgatory? He said yes, the purgatory would be a possibility. I think he forgot about the purgatory being a possibility after death when I initially asked him and he said Christ could lead the person to heaven (which he probably doesn't actually believe). I think he actually does believe that the person in the example, despite not accepting Christ as the son of God and his savior, could end up in purgatory. That means the person would reach heaven someday, just after a period of the purging of sins.

I highly doubt my friend will convert to Hinduism. He already knows my belief that non-Hindus can be saved. He has said in the past that he will either be a Catholic or a pagan, nothing else. I still think he will ultimately remain with the Catholic Church, but if he does leave it I'm pretty sure he will become a follower of Celtic paganism. He and I were merely pointing out the similarities between Hinduism and paganism. He respects Hinduism despite the error that he sees in it (such as not accepting Christ as the son of God), but he has never shown any real interest in converting. Nor have I ever actively tried to convert or proselytize him.

[Ramakrishna]

My friend settled on a sort of compromise between Catholicism and paganism. When Christian missionaries were trying to convert Ireland, they decided to make one of the pagan goddesses, Brigit, into a Catholic saint to attract the natives to Christianity. That person is Saint Brigit, and it is fairly obvious that her life story was fabricated and just based off the pagan tales about the goddess Brigit. So my friend will remain Catholic and particularly worship Brigit.

But then today he's looking into Islam again. He said when he almost converted last year he stopped studying it because of the difficult questions it posed to him that challenge his beliefs. One main thing he is looking into is if Jesus was really God, or just a prophet like the Muslims say he is. He and I went through numerous Bible verses that seem to prove that Christ was not God. He is really confused as to what to do. He is sincerely seeking the truth. I told him that the Truth is one, but the paths are many.