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keshava
01 March 2010, 09:01 AM
I've just put a complaint in about this shallow, negative and inaccurate bbc article .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8539665.stm

sunyata07
01 March 2010, 12:59 PM
Namaste,

I can see why you're upset. The article certainly seems a little bit misinformed; you can tell within a few paragraphs this person knows very little about Hindu culture. Simplification for the sake of Western readers, or just ignorance on the reporter's behalf? Probably the latter, but I wouldn't go so far as to call the report being downright negative. Some of the passages did strike me as being a little on the cynical side, however, and I'm surprised at the levity the reporter displays in some of the passages - the fact that he compares the devotional chanting and ritual to a circus act seems a bit demeaning to say the least.

Ramakrishna
01 March 2010, 06:18 PM
Wow, I really expect better from the BBC! I don't think the reporter is really misinformed, but rather has something against Hinduism. I don't like the idea of comparing the whole thing to a circus. The reporter talks in depth about such things as the abundance of monkeys and the fact that the guide was disappointed at her donation. I understand that all of these things are mere observations, but the reporter (perhaps intentionally) left out many of the great things about Hinduism.

By the way, does anybody know where exactly the Hindu scriptures say you cannot convert to Hinduism? I have heard this said before, but I don't know where in the scriptures it says that.

Eastern Mind
01 March 2010, 07:51 PM
By the way, does anybody know where exactly the Hindu scriptures say you cannot convert to Hinduism? I have heard this said before, but I don't know where in the scriptures it says that.

Within the vastness of Hindu scriptures there are a ton of things that make no sense, especially when taken out of context, or isolated form the rest of the scripture. Personally, I think its another Christian tactic that tries to dissuade true searchers from looking deeper. They're scared of losing their entire flock to a belief system that they know makes more sense, so they come up with silly things like this.

Then again, I've been told by born Hindus and westerners alike that you can't convert. I put it in the same bag of absurdity as "You can't be a be a vegetarian. You'll die."

Aum Namasivaya

Ramakrishna
01 March 2010, 08:16 PM
Within the vastness of Hindu scriptures there are a ton of things that make no sense, especially when taken out of context, or isolated form the rest of the scripture. Personally, I think its another Christian tactic that tries to dissuade true searchers from looking deeper. They're scared of losing their entire flock to a belief system that they know makes more sense, so they come up with silly things like this.

Then again, I've been told by born Hindus and westerners alike that you can't convert. I put it in the same bag of absurdity as "You can't be a be a vegetarian. You'll die."

Aum Namasivaya

Yeah, I guess I can add that to the list of misconceptions about Hinduism. Although it's not as popular as some other misconceptions, it's still flat out false and harmful to the religion. It could be because there's no real formal conversion process, like in Christianity.

This website explains it pretty well: http://www.karma2grace.org/webcomponents/faq/index.asp?det=71

Eastern Mind
01 March 2010, 08:42 PM
Vannakkam Ramakrishna:

In my personal case, it was an adoption, not a conversion in the sense that the article talks about. I didn't have any formal religion to give up. I am not sure what the Arya Samaj uses but Himalayan Academy (How I did it) uses the namakarana samskara, or name giving ceremony, the same one a born Hindu uses for babies.

Since I also did a legal change of name. My Hindu name is on my passport, and I carry the documentation when I go to India. As others on here know, the documentation came in handy at Madurai. The Hindu name (Murugan) helps a lot. Although I have asked before, I do not know the ISKCON policy, as no one has yet to tell me. I also don't know about the other western Hindus on HDF. In the article they (Russian ISKCONites, I believe) were left outside. This is common also in Kerala temples, I am led to believe. The irony of course is that it is racism that allows enforcement, as a Christian or Muslim who was willing to 'disguise' with forehead marks could easily enter any of the temples. I definitely believe that some temple guides are Christian in TN. A person has to make a living somehow.

But I stand with the humility of the Russians there who were glad just to be there at all. So it wouldn't bother me either. God sees all.

But clearly the article writer let her biases slip in. This is common for many other journalists such as travel writers.

Aum Namasivaya

keshava
02 March 2010, 03:12 AM
Vannakkam Ramakrishna:

The Hindu name (Murugan) helps a lot. Although I have asked before, I do not know the ISKCON policy, as no one has yet to tell me. I also don't know about the other western Hindus on HDF. In the article they (Russian ISKCONites, I believe) were left outside. This is common also in Kerala temples, I am led to believe. The irony of course is that it is racism that allows enforcement, as a Christian or Muslim who was willing to 'disguise' with forehead marks could easily enter any of the temples. I definitely believe that some temple guides are Christian in TN. A person has to make a living somehow.

But I stand with the humility of the Russians there who were glad just to be there at all. So it wouldn't bother me either. God sees all.


Aum Namasivaya

Pranams Eastern Mind,

I assume you're asking about how adoption takes place in ISKCON?
As far as I've seen and experienced, the process is gradual depending on how far someone wants to take it. Here is the rough process, initially some people start to chant a set number of rounds, of these some do 16 rounds and are following the regulative principles they may recieve harinam and a name in a formal ceremony by a spiritual master, if after this they follow standards of a brahmin and like to do arcana worship they get brahmin diksa.

I remember when I went to Jagantha mandir I had to make sure I dont speak any english or speak hindi in my english accent else then you are also in danger of being removed. The pandit told me the questions that I will be asked like gotra etc which i had to be ready for.

Hare krishna

Eastern Mind
02 March 2010, 07:15 AM
Pranams Eastern Mind,

I assume you're asking about how adoption takes place in ISKCON?
As far as I've seen and experienced, the process is gradual depending on how far someone wants to take it. Here is the rough process, initially some people start to chant a set number of rounds, of these some do 16 rounds and are following the regulative principles they may recieve harinam and a name in a formal ceremony by a spiritual master, if after this they follow standards of a brahmin and like to do arcana worship they get brahmin diksa.

I remember when I went to Jagantha mandir I had to make sure I dont speak any english or speak hindi in my english accent else then you are also in danger of being removed. The pandit told me the questions that I will be asked like gotra etc which i had to be ready for.

Hare krishna

Thank you for this. You are the first person who has actually answered this. Two more questions. Do you also change your name on your passport and legally throught courts of law? (Like Muhammad Ali in Islam etc.)

Does ISKCON make a distinction between adoption and conversion? (Adoption meaning going into Sanatana Dharma from no belief, and conversion meaning dropping a previous religion (Catholicism for example) before taking on the new one.

It seems off to me what you said about English, and Hindi, as what about the Gujarati or Tamil villager who also doesn't know Hindi? Would he or she be barred?

Just curious. Thanks again. BTW, I'm also very pleased to hear you complained. Sometimes I think Hindus are too complacent about such things.

Aum namasivaya

I

keshava
03 March 2010, 04:45 AM
Thank you for this. You are the first person who has actually answered this. Two more questions. Do you also change your name on your passport and legally throught courts of law? (Like Muhammad Ali in Islam etc.)

Does ISKCON make a distinction between adoption and conversion? (Adoption meaning going into Sanatana Dharma from no belief, and conversion meaning dropping a previous religion (Catholicism for example) before taking on the new one.


I

Pranams Eastern Mind,

Thank you for your kind words.
Legal change of name isn't a requirement in ISKCON although some devotees do.

There isnt actaully a distinction between adoptation and convertion. Just some back ground, in gaudiya vaishnavism sanatan dharma is defined as an inherent dharma of the soul which is to worship god. So someone can easily come from another religion or sect etc and continue what they do as well as adopt say a vaishnava process if they feel it helps them in this purpose. They can retain whatever identity they want. E.g I personally know of devotees who identify them selves as muslim and another one as a jew although they chant 16 rounds and follow the regulations and they also worship krsna through their own process as the principle is to become closer to God. However after initiation generally devotees dont really identify with any other religous process. The external identification of religion is not seen as very important (At the begging stages it may be helpful) eg Hindu muslim jew etc, the important thing is to revive our concioiusness to connect to the Lord. Therefore it isnt seen so much as a convertion but adoption of spiritual practices which are useful for the goal of love of god and these increase in commitement and practice as the person deems helpful to revive god conciousness.

keshava
03 March 2010, 04:54 AM
It seems off to me what you said about English, and Hindi, as what about the Gujarati or Tamil villager who also doesn't know Hindi? Would he or she be barred?

Just curious. Thanks again. BTW, I'm also very pleased to hear you complained. Sometimes I think Hindus are too complacent about such things.

Aum namasivaya

I

We took a pandit with us and he answered most of the questions I believe they were asking becasue we were donating (althogh cant remember as it was in 2002), the pandits are available in all languages. We took ours from the gujerati samaj. Sometimes the caretakers at the temple will ask you questions directly and maybe able to speak the language but our guide did most of the talking we spoke to each otehr in gujeratio and told them we were from gujerat so they were happy (-:. I think some of them could figure out by the way we look we are from the west but they were inm a lenient mood.

Eastern Mind
03 March 2010, 07:36 AM
Namaste Keshava:

Thanks again. See, one can actually learn something here. I think for many of the temples regarding 'westerners' , its like customs, depends on who is manning the station at the time. From a travel forum I really get that message about Tirupati temple.

Unfortunately in India, donation, dakshina, gift, and bribe are all in a grey mishmash of some kind of payment.

Aum Namasivaya