Why are ISKCON so obsessed with money?

[ScottMalaysia]

Some guys from the local ISKCON centre have been operating a stall at university for Clubs Week. They've been giving away Krishna prasadam and "selling" their books for a donation. I've chatted to a couple of them, and one of them invited me to a "Gita workshop" tonight at their centre in town (their temple is quite a way out of the main city of Wellington).

So I turn up at the upstairs office lot that they use, and they ask me for $10 to go to the class! He'd never said anything about that! Well, I didn't have any cash on me, just an bank card and my bus pass. When I told them I only had a bank card, the devotee I'd talked to said that I could go and get some money out from an ATM later.

Well, after the class, they did the usual routine of distributing food. I asked the devotee I'd talked to if they'd be a charge for the food, and he said I still had to pay for attending the class. I told him that I didn't have any income at the moment and wouldn't be getting any until next Thursday. He then said it was all right and I could have some food. We chatted while we ate and he told me that I shouldn't worship Durga and worship Krishna instead.

Has anyone else encountered this with ISKCON -charging to attend services? I personally think that it's wrong and I won't be going back there ever again. I mean, it's one thing to have a donation box or pass a plate around during a service, but it's another to charge admission. Could you imagine churches charging people to come to their Sunday services? They're already losing people rapidly, and charging admission would just drive more people away.

They seem to be preoccupied with money - soliciting donations, selling books, and now this?

[grames]

Dear Scott,

Looks like you are entering in to a place where they do not make you happy. You better stop going there and also do not waste your time going there unless you believe that they will change their ways of running the temple with your advice.

But, with out money it is not possible to run anything like a temple etc. So, do not propose a theory where you will propagate a dream of having temple etc with out money. If temples are not necessary for you, stay far away from going to temples and save your peace of mind as well as theirs. If you think, it gives you any sort of benefit by going to the temple, worshiping the form of God there, do not complain so much about them seeking some sort of support to maintain such temples. Your $10 is not going to move you out of life but it can make a big difference to them. Do not generalize this as some sin and isolate it as just ISKCON practice.

If your complaint have to be taken as some sort of sin, then every Hundi in the temples, every FREE prasadam offered has to canceled in all the temples. Instead you stay home and practice your spiritual process instead of complaining so much so many times. Did they print some invitation and invited you specially to loot your valuable money? If the answer is NO, be pleased with that.

Your barber might be charging you more than $10 for an insignificant hair cut!

[ScottMalaysia]

Dear Scott,

Looks like you are entering in to a place where they do not make you happy. You better stop going there and also do not waste your time going there unless you believe that they will change their ways of running the temple with your advice.

But, with out money it is not possible to run anything like a temple etc. So, do not propose a theory where you will propagate a dream of having temple etc with out money. If temples are not necessary for you, stay far away from going to temples and save your peace of mind as well as theirs. If you think, it gives you any sort of benefit by going to the temple, worshiping the form of God there, do not complain so much about them seeking some sort of support to maintain such temples. Your $10 is not going to move you out of life but it can make a big difference to them. Do not generalize this as some sin and isolate it as just ISKCON practice.

If your complaint have to be taken as some sort of sin, then every Hundi in the temples, every FREE prasadam offered has to canceled in all the temples. Instead you stay home and practice your spiritual process instead of complaining so much so many times. Did they print some invitation and invited you specially to loot your valuable money? If the answer is NO, be pleased with that.

Your barber might be charging you more than $10 for an insignificant hair cut!

If I had a regular income I'd be happy to contribute to my local temple (NOT the ISKCON one). People will donate if given the opportunity. But I really resent being charged, especially when I really don't have a lot of money at the moment.

Churches manage to get by without charging admission. The parishioners happily donate their money to the church. But the church doesn't penalize those who are too poor to contribute by requiring them to pay just to attend a service.

[grames]

Dear Scott,

I am sorry if i am touching anything very personal about you or your current status of life. Sometimes we have to compromise about our current environment and yet, strive to see how we can progress and get detached. I am glad you have the heart to donate to temples and it doesn't have to be ISKCON. But, if you do not want ISKCON as your choice for various reasons, my only wonder is why are you going there repeatedly then? You already have a mind fixed that it is not your plate of things and not your choice of place. Why bother? Be it good or bad but its not fitting you right. What is the point in building the tower of complaints?

Also try to know why churches are not charged? Does that mean they are running all the churches with out Money? Or does that mean they have enough money supplied to them through various channels and keep them worry free about running the chruch and give you things for FREE? What is free in this material world? Even water is nowadays charged with a bill. Except Air, everything else have a price tag.

Am i justifying price tag for spiritual practice and wisdom? Please do not assume that as i am one of those who believe that, you give free what you got for free. But, the media, temple, satSang etc. etc. cannot be done with out managing the money aspect and i am sure you also understand that. Forcing someone to pay a certain amount for everything is stupidity and i do concur with you on that. But, do not generalize it and if possible, put a title saying Why the ISKCON temple in (city),Malaysia charge me for attending a Gita class etc. Also you have all your right to talk to the temple president if you have genuine interest to just attend the class and also explain your situation of why you cannot pay for it. Let us all know what their responses are instead of a generalized complaint.

[Believer]

Scott,

Looking at your posts, you seem like a bright young man. This particular post is out of character for you and totally unnecessary. Expressing yourself when you are angry, is always the wrong time. If I feel that a wrong has been done to me, I always let the poison of the moment dissolve itself before I react. And later on, the reaction always comes out to be more thought out and not that harsh.

It is understandable that you being a student have no source of income and cannot afford to spend what you don't have. But in real life, everything costs money and somebody has to pay for it, preferably the user of that service or merchandise. As you narrate the incident, the devotee (in his moment of enthusiasm probably) forgot to mention the fee involved for the Gita lesson. They should have let it go at that and not charged you anything. But a harsh over-reaction accusing ISKCON of being money hungry is unwarranted. They have been at the forefront of building so many temples in India and around the world. They are also the ones who can communicate with the second generation NRIs in the language of their adopted country and keep them grounded. Every Hindu organization should be encouraged and supported for spreading the peaceful message of Bhagwad Gita and NEVER ridiculed.

I am sure that you have cooled down, and probably repent being so harsh. It is perfectly normal and part of the learning process when you are young. I would use this experience as a lesson to improve myself and ask for Krishna's forgiveness. Path to spirituality is through humility and self-surrender. Why not put it to practice starting today?

Regards.

[ScottMalaysia]

It is understandable that you being a student have no source of income and cannot afford to spend what you don't have. But in real life, everything costs money and somebody has to pay for it, preferably the user of that service or merchandise. As you narrate the incident, the devotee (in his moment of enthusiasm probably) forgot to mention the fee involved for the Gita lesson. They should have let it go at that and not charged you anything. But a harsh over-reaction accusing ISKCON of being money hungry is unwarranted.

I have read of many instances where ISKCON devotees misrepresented themselves in order to solicit donations. These practices are known as "scamkirtan", a play on the word "sankirtan" which normally means congregational chanting, but in ISKCON jargon has been adapted to mean soliciting donations and distributing books. The process is described in books such as Monkey on a Stick and Where is Joey? Lost Among the Hare Krishnas. A common tactic is to offer a person a "free book" and then ask for a donation for the printing cost. This is to get around laws that prohibit selling in certain areas.


They have been at the forefront of building so many temples in India and around the world. They are also the ones who can communicate with the second generation NRIs in the language of their adopted country and keep them grounded. Every Hindu organization should be encouraged and supported for spreading the peaceful message of Bhagwad Gita and NEVER ridiculed.

I disagree with you saying that ISKCON are the ones that can communicate with the NRIs and keep them grounded. While ISKCON services are generally in English, they are introducing these NRIs to one sect of Hinduism (Gaudiya Vaishnavism) and telling them that other Hindu sects and philosophies (such as Saivism or Advaita) are wrong. In most cases, the NRIs will have been brought up as either non-sectarian Hindus or following a different sect than ISKCON. Hinduism Today (October 1998) reported that some Hindus who joined ISKCON were taught to reject their family's religion and adopt ISKCON beliefs and practices. If I was a parent, I would not want my children being taught by ISKCON devotees that Durga Ma is a demigod and lower than Krishna.

[Madhuri]

Wow, no I've never seen or heard of them charging for classes. The most I've encountered is them asking for small donations for the food they give you. Generally they are very giving. Maybe that particular temple of group is having serious financial problem?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

In my limited experience, I have observed a change in ISKCON. Sure there was a time that I met some ISKCON chaps dressed in suits soliciting money in the guise of 'international charity' but sheesh that was 25 years ago. My latest interactions, albeit few in number have been quite positive.

In my city the Rathayatra (sp?) festival goes past another temple where they stop and lunch is served. Any individual has the choice to worship at any temple they wish. If they don't like what is offered, they can worship at home. I think people who are concerned about what happens with people at a temple forget what a temple is: Its the Home of the Deity, not the home of the people. Are you there to watch people, and have a discussion, or are you there to worship God?

I strongly believe in Hindu Solidarity, so ISKCONites are my brothers and sisters in SD. Even though we may disagree on some subtle or even important stuff, that should be overridden by the fact its all Hinduism.

I just don't see the point in criticising other sects or sampradayas or organisations that happen to hold a different point of view than mine. Its detrimental to all involved.

Aum Namasivaya

[Believer]

While ISKCON services are generally in English, they are introducing these NRIs to one sect of Hinduism (Gaudiya Vaishnavism) and telling them that other Hindu sects and philosophies (such as Saivism or Advaita) are wrong.

Scott,

I understand your position and I respect your opinion about everything you say. Having been involved with them for a number of years and knowing the inner workings of that institution, I find it hard to refute most of what you say. All I am requesting is not to go on a bashing spree. After all, it is a hindu organization, and God knows we need every hindu organization to be propagating the peaceful message of the Bhagwat Gita. Every subset of hinduism worships a particular deity, almost to the total exclusion of the rest. So they are all at fault, not just the ISKCON (for their exclusive dedication to Gaudiya Vaishanava sampradya). If you have had a bad experience with them, or they just bring out the WORST in you because of something they do, just don't go there. But, there is no positive cause served by all the negativity expressed. Live and let live!


I think people who are concerned about what happens with people at a temple forget what a temple is: Its the Home of the Deity, not the home of the people. Are you there to watch people, and have a discussion, or are you there to worship God?

I strongly believe in Hindu Solidarity, so ISKCONites are my brothers and sisters in SD. Even though we may disagree on some subtle or even important stuff, that should be overridden by the fact its all Hinduism.

I just don't see the point in criticising other sects or sampradayas or organisations that happen to hold a different point of view than mine. Its detrimental to all involved.

EM,

I regret to say that you don't know all about the practices of ISKCON, and are also infusing 'your views" into the discussion rather than staying focused on "their views". Please don't digress from the subject.

I fully support the view that in spite of our differences/dislikes of certain institutions, we should not be criticizing them just because we had a negative experience with them or they do/believe in something we don't agree with. After all, they are out there promoting Vedic/Hindu values. We should always be supporting of them, as we should be of each other in this forum.

Regards.

[Eastern Mind]

EM,

I regret to say that you don't know all about the practices of ISKCON, and are also infusing 'your views" into the discussion rather than staying focused on "their views". Please don't digress from the subject.

Regards.

Vannakkam Believer; yes, I know I know very little. So what was it in my post that showed my ignorance? The part about the temple being the House of the Lord? I don't usually even participate in the ISKCON forums at all because of my ignorance, but I wanted to show support for Hindu brethen. Nothing more, really.

Aum

[Darji]

I personally have only had one "good" experience with Hare Krishna's. The other times, well wow... simply... wow. I have experienced myself the above tactics of misleading and using subterfuge to gain funds. I'm not saying all are like this, but I have seen it first hand. I know several years ago, when I was casually learning about SD, I bumped into a few and greeted them with namaskar (being friendly and all) and due to my ignorance in the matter (as I was truly experiencing it for the first time) said Om Namah Shivah. OMG! you would have thought a x-tian pee'd in a mosque. The kid (yes kid) started in on me like a newly converted Jahova's witness trying to share "the good news", he went straight into a speech all about how Krishna was superiour to Shiva the speech sounded half practiced and half ingrained, it was amazing. I was quickly turned off of Iskcon due to this and the other couple of exposures of their devotees.

I AM NOT SAYING ALL ARE LIKE THIS, but the few times I have been around them, in several different cities I have experienced what Scott points out. Donating of your own free will and being guilt tripped/ tricked/ misrepresented to are quite different. Don't bloody hand me a "free"book and then say "Um, can I have money now?"

[WomenForKrsna]

I personally have only had one "good" experience with Hare Krishna's. The other times, well wow... simply... wow. I have experienced myself the above tactics of misleading and using subterfuge to gain funds. I'm not saying all are like this, but I have seen it first hand. I know several years ago, when I was casually learning about SD, I bumped into a few and greeted them with namaskar (being friendly and all) and due to my ignorance in the matter (as I was truly experiencing it for the first time) said Om Namah Shivah. OMG! you would have thought a x-tian pee'd in a mosque.

LOL LOL I am a long time Hare Krishna, and yet I get as irritated at the fanatisicm as anyone else. Always I'm waiting, thinking, as years pass, they will mature and this will cease. Never happens.


>>The kid (yes kid) <<

That could be why it happened, and keeps happening. Old ones sometimes learn, but there's always a new kid to start over again.

>started in on me like a newly converted Jahova's witness trying to share "the good news", <

LOL

>he went straight into a speech all about how Krishna was superiour to Shiva the speech sounded half practiced and half ingrained, it was amazing. I was quickly turned off of Iskcon due to this and the other couple of exposures of their devotees. <<

I am sorry you were turned off by this. Humbly I would ask, just read Prabhupada's books. Take from him, not others, than decide.

>I AM NOT SAYING ALL ARE LIKE THIS, <


Good, because I'm not.

>but the few times I have been around them, in several different cities I have experienced what Scott points out. Donating of your own free will and being guilt tripped/ tricked/ misrepresented to are quite different. Don't bloody hand me a "free"book and then say "Um, can I have money now?"<

Lousy training. Even they still ask me for money and I'm one of them! At this point tho I quickly say something to get them to give up, or I go the other way.

[WomenForKrsna]

Some guys from the local ISKCON centre have been operating a stall at university for Clubs Week. They've been giving away Krishna prasadam and "selling" their books for a donation. I've chatted to a couple of them, and one of them invited me to a "Gita workshop" tonight at their centre in town (their temple is quite a way out of the main city of Wellington).

So I turn up at the upstairs office lot that they use, and they ask me for $10 to go to the class! He'd never said anything about that! Well, I didn't have any cash on me, just an bank card and my bus pass. When I told them I only had a bank card, the devotee I'd talked to said that I could go and get some money out from an ATM later.

Well, after the class, they did the usual routine of distributing food. I asked the devotee I'd talked to if they'd be a charge for the food, and he said I still had to pay for attending the class. I told him that I didn't have any income at the moment and wouldn't be getting any until next Thursday. He then said it was all right and I could have some food. We chatted while we ate and he told me that I shouldn't worship Durga and worship Krishna instead.

Has anyone else encountered this with ISKCON -charging to attend services? I personally think that it's wrong and I won't be going back there ever again. I mean, it's one thing to have a donation box or pass a plate around during a service, but it's another to charge admission. Could you imagine churches charging people to come to their Sunday services? They're already losing people rapidly, and charging admission would just drive more people away.

They seem to be preoccupied with money - soliciting donations, selling books, and now this?

This seems complicated, and in general no, there are not charges for services. They can ask for a donation, but its not suppose to be trickery like you experienced. Prabhupada had sunday feasts with lecture, bhajanas, kirtans, and prasadam for free with option of donation, but not requirement, and all up front. More modern times are doing things like seminars and charging money and why I want to hear them for money when I can put in a CD or DVD of Prabhupada? Well dont let their nonsense get you down. Its not to do with Srila Prabhupada, its to do with them. Immature devotees, not always about age either.

W4K

[Believer]

Prabhupada had sunday feasts with lecture, bhajanas, kirtans, and prasadam for free with option of donation, but not requirement, and all up front. W4K

It appears that during Prabhupada's time, enough donations were coming in to cover the expenses. But now many of the temples have fallen over hard times. The one I am associated with, charges $3 for the Sunday feast. Not only that, if some Indian family sponsors the Sunday feast, it is $300 for being a sponsor and they still charge $3 for the feast; or you pay a sponsorship fee of $500 if you don't want them to charge for the prasadam. I am not going to make any comments about this "price structure". ;)

[WomenForKrsna]

It appears that during Prabhupada's time, enough donations were coming in to cover the expenses. But now many of the temples have fallen over hard times. The one I am associated with, charges $3 for the Sunday feast. Not only that, if some Indian family sponsors the Sunday feast, it is $300 for being a sponsor and they still charge $3 for the feast; or you pay a sponsorship fee of $500 if you don't want them to charge for the prasadam. I am not going to make any comments about this "price structure". ;)

You make some good points. Everyone was such a spiritual activist at those times when he was here that they wen out on Sankirtana or did whatever to pay for things.

Currently official charging for feast in order to eat, that was not his instructions. Even sometimes we took plate outside to this one bumb who was smelly but starving. We fed him every sunday, free, and others free. Those with money would give. If we stick with his instructions, everything works out. Its also reasons temple falls on hard times, or aren't enough in temple helping out, got burned out now the burdon increases. Going back to his method of sunday feasts to book distrubtion, college programs, whatever, where we start to be honest up front, can thing change. I am a believer that change for the better can happen.

Like in church for example when they pass around the basket to give donation, so after lecture at the feast, a basket could be passed around. I figure, if someone went to a restaurant they'd pay much more, so I have no problem giving donation for feast.

Personally don't see anything wrong with Hindus or others sponsering a feast, unless someone points out to me what that may be, as it looks ok. Its honest, up front, a choice, and giving donations to Krishna can relieve malefic planetary karmas.

[Yogkriya]

I have read of many instances where ISKCON devotees misrepresented themselves in order to solicit donations. These practices are known as "scamkirtan", a play on the word "sankirtan" which normally means congregational chanting, but in ISKCON jargon has been adapted to mean soliciting donations and distributing books. The process is described in books such as Monkey on a Stick and Where is Joey? Lost Among the Hare Krishnas. A common tactic is to offer a person a "free book" and then ask for a donation for the printing cost. This is to get around laws that prohibit selling in certain areas.



I disagree with you saying that ISKCON are the ones that can communicate with the NRIs and keep them grounded. While ISKCON services are generally in English, they are introducing these NRIs to one sect of Hinduism (Gaudiya Vaishnavism) and telling them that other Hindu sects and philosophies (such as Saivism or Advaita) are wrong. In most cases, the NRIs will have been brought up as either non-sectarian Hindus or following a different sect than ISKCON. Hinduism Today (October 1998) reported that some Hindus who joined ISKCON were taught to reject their family's religion and adopt ISKCON beliefs and practices. If I was a parent, I would not want my children being taught by ISKCON devotees that Durga Ma is a demigod and lower than Krishna.


Dear Scott,

Namaskaram!

I can understand your concern about paying the 10$ for simply sitting in a Gita class. Usually this is not the case. I wonder why they charge this money. They are simply reading out from the Gita. I've been present at similar classes in Iskcon temples and there is no fees. In fact I've myself given some specialized Hindi language classes at some Iskcon temples in Europe. For this some money should be charged, yet I had charged no money.
Though I'm not Iskcon of Gaudiya initiated.

Telling not to worship Goddess Durga by some devotee at Iskcon temple is believable, but is plain silly. Next time somebody tells you this, ask them to read DEVI BHAGWATAM.
And know the truth.

Guru Parampara is important. But Sampradayas start with a good intention and later politics of policies and philosophies take over. And the real meaning of SAM-pradaya is lost.
In the Hare Krsna / Iskcon policy other sects, sampradayas and other forms of the same God are discouraged and at times put down as Demi-Semi and not worth worshipping as Krsna. Even Lord Vishnu and Rama and even Lord Shiva are told to be 'avataras' of Krsna. Lakshmi an "expansion" or avatara of Radha!!
So eat the Prasadam, pay a little donation if you can and smile :)
And don't worry about Iskcon. Their philosophy is not entirely Vedic but sampradayik.
Even Arjuna worshipped Devi. Nobody acquires shakti without worshipping the Shakti.
Jai Shri Krishna!! Om Dum Durgaye Namah!

Regards,
YogKriya.

[WomenForKrsna]

Dear Scott,

Namaskaram!

I can understand your concern about paying the 10$ for simply sitting in a Gita class. Usually this is not the case. I wonder why they charge this money. They are simply reading out from the Gita. I've been present at similar classes in Iskcon temples and there is no fees. In fact I've myself given some specialized Hindi language classes at some Iskcon temples in Europe. For this some money should be charged, yet I had charged no money.
Though I'm not Iskcon of Gaudiya initiated.

Telling not to worship Goddess Durga by some devotee at Iskcon temple is believable, but is plain silly. Next time somebody tells you this, ask them to read DEVI BHAGWATAM.
And know the truth. .

Not worshipping Goddess Durga or any demigod is not meant in any way as disrespectful. No. It is that our spritual master, pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada, has explained they need to first ask Krishna, so why we don't just ask Krishna. And has explained to worship only the 'Supreme' Personality of Godhead. It has nothing to do with disrespect tho, simply going directly to God personified.



Guru Parampara is important. But Sampradayas start with a good intention and later politics of policies and philosophies take over. And the real meaning of SAM-pradaya is lost.
In the Hare Krsna / Iskcon policy other sects, sampradayas and other forms of the same God are discouraged and at times put down as Demi-Semi and not worth worshipping as Krsna. Even Lord Vishnu and Rama and even Lord Shiva are told to be 'avataras' of Krsna. Lakshmi an "expansion" or avatara of Radha!!
So eat the Prasadam, pay a little donation if you can and smile :)
And don't worry about Iskcon. Their philosophy is not entirely Vedic but sampradayik.
Even Arjuna worshipped Devi. Nobody acquires shakti without worshipping the Shakti.
Jai Shri Krishna!! Om Dum Durgaye Namah!

Regards,
YogKriya.

No one should put down worship, simply if this is a Hare Krishna thread about Prabhupada's Hare Krishna movement, well most of us who took initiation have no interest in other sampradayas, which is not to say offensive, not at all; simply we found the pure deotee, after many lifetimes, now we want to follow his instructions and get out of the material world. I feel I have to stick up for him on this Hare Krishna ISKCON thread, rather than get some association. Just, our guru Prabhupada, he does say worship of demi-gods is not necessary, to put all our energy to worship Krishna. If somene put down others ways, that's not right, but what can be done.

Thanks for listening, hope I did not offend anyone, and hope I cleared some misconceptions away. Thanking you.

[rcscwc]

If I had a regular income I'd be happy to contribute to my local temple (NOT the ISKCON one). People will donate if given the opportunity. But I really resent being charged, especially when I really don't have a lot of money at the moment.

Churches manage to get by without charging admission. The parishioners happily donate their money to the church. But the church doesn't penalize those who are too poor to contribute by requiring them to pay just to attend a service.

Churches get lots of money from many sources. Come to think, even Hindus give. All churches are flush with money.

For running programmes money is NEEDED. ISKCON too need it, churches too need it. Or do you think churches make do without money?

[Yogkriya]

Not worshipping Goddess Durga or any demigod is not meant in any way as disrespectful. No. It is that our spritual master, pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada, has explained they need to first ask Krishna, so why we don't just ask Krishna. And has explained to worship only the 'Supreme' Personality of Godhead. It has nothing to do with disrespect tho, simply going directly to God personified.

Namaste Women(or is it woman writing?) for Krsna. PAMHO!

What if your master Prabhupad differs from the Vedas?
It is a sampradayik stance to worship any other form of God first seek permission or ask Krsna. What was the case before Krsna appeared on the scene? Was Nand Maharaj asking for Krsna's permission before worshipping Shiva in Nandgram? Was Vashishtha doing that? So this is concocted and is ok. In many cases Guru is placed first. Worship of Devas is recommended in the Vedas. Even Lord Krsna himself tells Arjuna to worship devas and do yagyas and rituals to please and fulfill the devas and thus receiving fulfillment himself to attain the HIGHEST goal. The same Krishn also says in Gita to leave all religions and surrender to Him alone. The context is taken out of way as per sampradayuik sectarian guidelines as do not follow anything else besides Hare Krsna philosophy and do not worship any other form of God.
As this sampradaya sect issues such a guideline they conveniently ignore that Krsna also advises to worship Lord Shiva and Durga to Arjuna. :)


No one should put down worship, simply if this is a Hare Krishna thread about Prabhupada's Hare Krishna movement, well most of us who took initiation have no interest in other sampradayas, which is not to say offensive, not at all; simply we found the pure deotee, after many lifetimes, now we want to follow his instructions and get out of the material world. I feel I have to stick up for him on this Hare Krishna ISKCON thread, rather than get some association. Just, our guru Prabhupada, he does say worship of demi-gods is not necessary, to put all our energy to worship Krishna. If somene put down others ways, that's not right, but what can be done.
Thanks for listening, hope I did not offend anyone, and hope I cleared some misconceptions away. Thanking you.

"if someone puts down other ways what can be done" - yes there is something that can be done because it is what is coming out of Iskcon!! So you can correct this. Of course during my long association with Iskcon, I have met people who are very respectful to other forms of God and then there are those who are very close narrow minded and would straight away put down devas. A friend of mine, a Prabhupad disciple from the U.S. upon re-confirming with his Godbrothers told me that it is a great blasphemy and OFFENSE to put Shiva at the same level or even near the same altar as Krsna. So such immature fools refuse to accept Krsna in the name of Shiva. They ignore Krsna's words when Krsna says how he himself worshiped Shiva after seeking Paashupaat diksha from sage Upamanyu.

So dear women for Krsna, as we see this is not in line with either Krsna or Vedic dharma but in line with what Prabhupad said. That is his stance and you are obliged or bound to follow it. And I respect your stance. But would rather follow Lord Keshava.
Having said that, what I do not appreciate in Iskcon is the stress on differences and perching over others and my God better versus your God, my philosophy better versus yours and God positioning agenda.
Bhakti and love is beautiful. I'm always rejoiced to see a simple hearted bhakta who loves the all attracting krishna. Not the ones who too much intellectualize pure divine love - Bhakti. :)

Hare Krsna!
Y.S.

Yogkriya.

P.S. I really appreciate Srila Prabhupada's spreading of Krsna bhakti movement in the west. But not the bashing of Hindus, other saints besides own Gaudiya ones calling them names as "fooks and rascals" or putting down of other forms of God constantly comparing them to Krsna. Regards.

[grames]

Dear boy,

What Sri Prabupada preached is 100% Vedic and what you tend to know or show off like you know may or may not be vedic. Veda and Vedantic understanding is not monopoly of any one sector or group. In fact, it is one of the vaishnava sampradaya which fiercely advocates the "Differences" as core Tattva and in real life, we do acknowledge differences in people based on their level of exposure, experience and capacity as well as capability. Your choice of words are so unethical and realize this, THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL AUTHENTIC SCHOOL/LEARNING IN INDIA which does not belong to any SAMPRADAYA be it Vaishnava schools or Shaiva schools. ( If you want to market the neo Yoga practice as Authentic or Vedic, it is mere marketing and such belief, faith has no support from any AUTHENTIC schools). Which in turn will make you a dicipline of some school if you are serious about "LEARNING" and experiencing. Just closing your eyes, concentrating on ONE object and regulating your breathe will not make you any spiritual practitioner or some VEDIC Trade Mark. ( These kind of people who believe they are seeking God are labeled as Mudhas - by vast number of authentic scriptures, authentic Gurus. Since you are not in India, you may not be aware of the number of Ashrams that are flourishing in India in the name of "energy" share, Adyatma meditation etc. When such so called saints behave normally with their "SvaRupa", then it becomes a big news, MMS Scandals etc. but who remembers???)

Secondly, what Lord Krshna advices for reaching Him is not diluted by any Gaudiyas unlike you happen to believe. In fact, what Lord says for this age as most possible or only possible way is what Gaudiyas and other Vaishnavas in general are following. ( In fact, the Mukthi Marga is called Ekayaana -and not something with two hindered choices or 1 billion idea) But, you bringing in some random isolated references with out proper context will not make your claim true or make your accusations here as true.

You still haven't answered for my questions on the other thread and once you reveal the secret of "How Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, though having difference but are Supreme at same time", your emotional outburst has no merit. If you are going to say ALL IS SHIVA, the vaishnava Sampradayas mostly say, ALL IS VISHNU and you will end up in a no solution cycle of arguments.

On the other hand, if you really want to understand "WHY" Gaudiyas or in general Vaishnavas do or do not worship Devas, as part of your learning, i will be glad to help. With out knowing the philosophy behind the vedantic schools, arguing and accusing the vedantic school's philosophy and methods is like talking about the greatness or weakness of a son of barren woman. Also, it is proven marketing strategy that, ATTACK the POPULAR To get ATTENTION and i am sure most of the people are aware of these kind of techniques.

To start your learning, ask your Guru's or whatever is your source of learning about the meaning of "PanchaRatra" and the reasons why this method is/was followed. Also learn how and what makes it so different from Tantras etc. If you already know the answers, i wonder why you make so much noise here.

Hare Krshna!

[Believer]

Dear boy,

But, you bringing in some random isolated references with out proper context will not make your claim true or make your accusations here as true.

..... your emotional outburst has no merit.

Well said 'grames'
I am not sure how our educated elite spews out raw garbage which stinks up the forum!

[Yogkriya]

Well said 'grames'
I am not sure how our educated elite spews out raw garbage which stinks up the forum!

?????

[Yogkriya]

Dear boy,


Namaste Grames,
Hope you are doing well.

I do not appreciate your tone calling me a "boy" implying that I'm a kid (?). This is the We are big and you are kids attitude of SOME Iskcionites / Gaudiyas that I do not appreciate. Sometimes though I do want to see if a devotee is sincere by poking at the veil of pseudo-humility. If the humbleness is real, I bow down and usually the devotee (irrespective of his or her status on the Iskcon or any other heirarchy stairway) becomes a dear friend. If, its fake then I know it too and there is no gain from discussion. Kindly be more respectful in future posts. Thank you.



What Sri Prabupada preached is 100% Vedic and what you tend to know or show off like you know may or may not be vedic.
Veda and Vedantic understanding is not monopoly of any one sector or group.


My post was directed towards "womenforKrsna" by the way. Nevertheless..
What I said is "show off" simply because it is not directly in line with Prabhupad and Gaudiya thought that developed over last 300-400 years after Shri Chaitanya left?
What Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad preached is NOT 100% Vedic.
Claiming it as 100% Vedic is wrong.
Following are the views promoted and preached by Prabhupad:
All Vedic mantras are void in Kaliyuga.
All rituals are useless.
ONLY Hare Krsna Mantra works in Kaliyuga. There is no other way.
Shiva is fully dependent on Krsna and can't decided things on his own.
Shiva cannot grant liberation.
Shiva can only grant material objects or wishes.

For a man who promotes Neo-Krishnaism to hippies (not that its a problem, but commendable), canceling out all Vedic practices, mantras, rituals, Kundalini, dhyan kriya yog, abuses all other saints as petty "fools and rascals", condemns Hinduism simply to promote his own 400 year old school of thought or rather a newly formed organization called IskCON as only and all VEDIC - is 100% VEDIC?? I understand you are programed to follow and stand by it by default.
Not that it is any of my problem. But I had refused to be the sheep follower.
Yes its Neo-Krishnaism, because Krishna worship did not start with Prabhupad or Shri Chaitanya. Nor is it a monopoly of Iskcon or Gaudiyas. Shri Krishn worship has been going on in India for ages. But of course all that is now not upto the mark since what Iskcon preaches is only the right way.

I think there is no need to generalize things and put Iskcon thoughts as generalied Krishna bhakti practiced in India.
There are smack precise issues with Iskcon philosophy - hypocrisy and double standards. Its not about Lord KRSNA. You cannot fire your cannons using Krsna, Vaishnavism on the whole as a sampradaya or Vedic words as a scape goat. Having said that, I have lots of dear friends right there in Iskcon (including some GBCs) and many dear Hare Krsna devotees whom I dearly appreciate for their sincerity and love.

But I'll address the political part here: you worship Lord Krishna. Great! You don't worship "demi"- Gods. No problem! You promote Bhakti yoga - Wonderful!! These are the things that I praise and commend Iskcon and Gaudiyas for.
But these are not the issues for disagreement. All this is already available in Vedic Sanatana Hindu Dharma.
So what's the problem then??
The problem is the a) God positioning agenda (My Daddy bigger stronger than your Daddy thing)
b) Our teachings right and only true. Hinduism is ****. Rest are lower.
c) Advaita Vedanta is zero. All rest of Vedic things are Mayavad or some other ****.
d) Shiva is - read above what Prabhupad stated. Bunch of limitations put on Lord Shiva by Iskconites by biased purports and translations. quotations out of context from A Kaliyuga book called Brahma Samhita that explains the curd-milk configuration where Shiva is the curd and VIshnu is the Milk, where Vishnu is source of Shiva (Shiva is unborn), claiming Rudra who appeared from Brahma as Shiva or Sankarshana etc.. hence birth of Shiva story...
The lord of Lords whom KRISHNA himself worships and is not comprehendable by any of the Gods is now limited to only material things that too in the "mode of ignorance". Vishnu is born from Krsna, so is Rama... etc. stories. Is this what you call as 100% VEDIC??? Or just that you need the suffix of the VEDIC word for promotion, just like you needed George Harrison (who never formally accepted Iskcon Prabhupad initiation), to promote the movement to convince people? Or like the support of that perv. John with Yoko who took a Krsna devotee Srila Prabhpad in his room full of naked pics of him with Yoko Ono that left Prabhupad disgusted only? These people were not good examples. Anyways.. hope you get the point. We are not on the promotion, marketing ride, but sadhna. So are Krsna bhaktas. Besides these claims of differences and put downs, I don't see a problem.

Let's read further:


In fact, it is one of the vaishnava sampradaya which fiercely advocates the "Differences" as core Tattva and in real life, we do acknowledge differences in people based on their level of exposure, experience and capacity as well as capability.

Yes. And duality is what MAYA is all about! So I wonder what happened to Krishna saying Panditah samadarshitah?? We seek HIM in all.
upadrastanumanta ca
bharta bhokta mahesvarah
paramatmeti capy ukto
dehe 'smin purusah parah (Bhagavad Gita 13:23)
"Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer who is MAHESHWARA, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as Paramatma,the Supreme soul of universe".

The differences are the work of EGO that is under MAYA. And this is what is real Mayavad. That does not allow one to see the Pramatma as the basis behind all those differences. Mayavad is not Goswami Tulasidas in Ram Charitmanas asking for some material betterment for family life along with spiritual qualities. Nor Krsna not any of the Pandavas lived a pauper's life either.
And HEY - Krsna himself approached Shri Shiv Mahadev to receive boon for a son. Not exactly a spiritual boon. Mayavad? The definition of Maya as understood in Iskcon is incomplete.

"In real life" - reality and truth are two different things. Truth doesn't have to be one with reality and so vice-versa too. Ultimate Vedic philosophy has to be based on the truth, not just reality. Reality keeps changing. If your tattva of dualism is based on reality of everyday life, then it is not long living and needs changing as life and times change. No wonder Iskcon in U.S. is almost destroyed by its own Kulis who slammed a multi million dollar lawsuit on its gurukul teachers for molestation and misbehavior. I don't need to mention Kirtananda and others. Sorry to bring it up. But you can't be hurling stones when you live in a glass house.



Your choice of words are so unethical

Unethical in questioning and not bowing down mechanically to various things?
Sorry if you din't like my choice of words. I will try and watch out and be more careful.
But I don't have to agree all 100% with Prabhupad if he says one thing and Krsna, Rama, Brahma, Shiva say another. This may make my words of disagreement as "unethical" to your mind.


.. and realize this, THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL AUTHENTIC SCHOOL/LEARNING IN INDIA which does not belong to any SAMPRADAYA be it Vaishnava schools or Shaiva schools.

That's your opinion and you have a right to it. There are schools of learning (authentic) that accept and assimilate more than one sampradaya and sometimes not a strict sampradaya. Sampradaya line is not as important as is the Guru parampara that holds true to Vedic lineages. Gurus have to be siddha in their particular line of yog. This is for yoga, where simply theoretical argumentation of preaching does not work. For example a tantra lineage may assimilate both Shaiva and Shakta sampradayas as well as follow Kriya yog. There are Vaishnava tantras too and use tantrik beej mantras for efficient effect. The klim kaam gayatri mantra used by the Gaudiyas is also a tantrik mantra using kaam klim beej. Klim is the beej mantra of Krishna and also of Kaam dev. Klim is also used for power of attraction in Tantra sadhnas and also for Kaali (besides Krim). Further tantras use tantrik and saumya mantrik sadhnas that are pure and that of highest discipline. Do not confuse tantra with the local image of pseudo-tantriks doing weirdo things for money. All that is not real tantra. But all that maybe in the tantra thread :)

Sampradayas have a number of sects that differ from each other on various petty points. Further in order to propound and establish their own separate identity, they keep arguing on these differences and miss the bigger picture. Many of these sects have their subsects and these subsects divide further into various other subsects due to difference of opinions, organizational matters, success jealousies etc. Many times preachings get colored by sub-sectarian policies.

Example: How many more branches has the Gaudiya sect divided into??
Why?? Its the same philosophy as given by Shri Chaitanya. Now Narayan Maharaj has come up with his own thing. Now one of his pet things is to condemn Iskcon (though he's Prabhupad's Godbrother) with such claims that "none of the Iskcon Gurus are illuminated and there is no real bhakti in Iskcon. People who want real bhakti come to Gaudiyas to me"
So why is he doing that? Jealousy of Iskcon's success in the west? he's speaking truth? some other reason? God knows.
Now all he has to do is preach on the differences on HOW HIS VERSION OF GAUDIYA PREACHING IS BETTER THAN ISKCON. This is an example of POLITICS in religion.
Isn't it what Srila Prabhupad did when he came to the west? Of course Shri Vivekananda and Shri Paramhansa Yogananda came much before Prabhupad.
But they were not arrogant of their own thing and didn't bash other Hindu saints or Hinduism. They didn't see Hinduism as "competition". They accepted other practices within Hinduism too though they did their own thing.
Shri Prabhupad ji on the other hand exhibited a different mood calling saints like shri RamaKrishna Paramhansa, Shri Vivekananda, Mahesh Yogi, even Rabindranath Tagore as "fools and rascals". And he called Hinduism as "hodge-podge", simply because its not narrow minded one track philosophy, but is like a ocean assimilating and making available different paths leading out of the cycle of samsara towards self realization and God. Just as the Vedic culture of sadhna that also recommends various paths. Lord Krishna himself also does the same in Gita.
So there is not and should not be any room for argument as far as I am concerned.
Krishna Bhakti is beautiful and each time I am in front of Krishna or Rama deities in any temple (Iskcon or not), tears flow from my eyes. All arguments go down the drain at this point. And if I appear to be writing here putting across a point or two is only because I feel bhakti should be taken in a spirit closer to this. And pretty sure I have seen people / Gurus in iskcon Gaudiya camp having it too. But then there are those who are high on "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" mood too. Such people did come to a spiritual movement for a reason. They were attracted due to some spiritual quality in them in the first place, however small it may be. But now they have become intellectuals after reading a few books.



( If you want to market the neo Yoga practice as Authentic or Vedic, it is mere marketing and such belief, faith has no support from any AUTHENTIC schools). Which in turn will make you a dicipline of some school if you are serious about "LEARNING" and experiencing.

I don't know how you came to a conclusion that I'm here marketing some neo Yoga school, when I'm going back to Vedic sadhnas and mantras and not what you are preaching i.e. all Vedic mantras and practices don't work now. Or is it that you are simply implying it that I am thus? In any case its untrue.


Just closing your eyes, concentrating on ONE object and regulating your breathe will not make you any spiritual practitioner or some VEDIC Trade Mark. ( These kind of people who believe they are seeking God are labeled as Mudhas - by vast number of authentic scriptures, authentic Gurus.

Dear atmiya Grames, who told you such a silly thing? I hope you are not thinking here about some yoga gymnastic schools from the west. Here you just contradicted all schools of Yog and Lord Krishna - Yogeshvara himself. I wonder if this is your own imagination or it has some basis?!
Obviously you have no insight into any other yogic practices apart from singing and dancing (yogic?) and "thinking" about krsna as the only true authentic yoga.
If you would genuinely be interested, I can give you lessons on 3 different branches of tratak.
Tratak helps in opening the Agya chakra. Krishna does a powerful shaktipaat opening Arjuna's Agya chakra for him to be able to see his divine form. This is yoga. And the Kriya of shaktipaat is YogKriya. With this silly statement of yours, unfortunately, you have canceled out all of that. Not just discredited a yogi of highest calibre like Arjuna, but Krishna as well. There are numerous examples of the importance of opened Agya chakra including the one in the Bible about your eye being one etc.
So all these people are now "Mudhas"???
So you think simply VEDANTA arguments proving disproving of points and 'shastrarth' is only spiritual practice?? Heck you guys don't even know how to chant mantra or do proper mantra sadhna. Its not an attack. What would I gain from it?! But mantra sadhna is done in a very methodical way. Yogis don't loiter around with beads. It's very controlled.
Yog sadhna, mantra sadhna is very much part and in fact a big part of Vedic sadhna.
So what if its not singing and dancing.
There are specific stages in dhyan yog. If you close your eyes and see darkness and your thoughts and patience get the better of you, then you can't consider that its all that is happening with the yogis too and now that they are Mudhas. Its wrong and offensive to think and preach such gullible stuff.


Since you are not in India, you may not be aware of the number of Ashrams that are flourishing in India in the name of "energy" share, Adyatma meditation etc. When such so called saints behave normally with their "SvaRupa", then it becomes a big news, MMS Scandals etc. but who remembers???)

umm.. yes I'm aware of many ashrams that have scandals etc. I'm also aware of the huge scandals that Iskcon has gone through the past many decades. Of 20 so called "gurus" that Prabhupad perched on the vyasa asana, 12 "fell" down if I can remember the counting right.
Now that's a big number. What was wrong?! The murders, sex scandals in New "Vrindavan" of Virginia. Iskcon is still paying off millions of hard earned sincere devotee money to its own arrogant brats - the Kulis, while the kulis enjoy and have fun at the Ford Amphitheater in Hollywood bashing Iskcon heads, with Hare Krsna Kuli babes going half naked on stage and one even doing a strip show act taking off her blouse and skirt on stage. Most of these kids now grown up to 30-40 years of mature age prefer not to wear kanthimalas at an Iskcon event. And yes of course there are planted mms that you talk about. Again, as I said before, you don't hurl stones at other's houses when you yourself live in glass houses.


Secondly, what Lord Krshna advices for reaching Him is not diluted by any Gaudiyas unlike you happen to believe. In fact, what Lord says for this age as most possible or only possible way is what Gaudiyas and other Vaishnavas in general are following. ( In fact, the Mukthi Marga is called Ekayaana -and not something with two hindered choices or 1 billion idea) But, you bringing in some random isolated references with out proper context will not make your claim true or make your accusations here as true.

Dear Grames, if you revert back to my older post of which all you could express was some displeasure, there are tones of references from the Vedas about worshipping Lord Shiva. These are neither 1billion ideas, nor Ejayaana mukthi maarg.
Again, Lord Krishna does not mention any Gaudiya or Vaishnavas. This is sampradayik, sub-sectarian coloring. No wonder Prabhupad had to re-translate Gita and put own purports in his Gita Bhashya as per Gaudiya perspective. My respects for Shri Prabhupad would've been even more if he was more honest in calling it "Bhagvad Gita bhashya as per Gaudiya Vaishnava perpective"
instead of calling it "As It Is".
So Krishna does not say that what Gaudiyas or Vaishnavas in general follow is only possible way. This is not true at all. So unacceptable. There are many other ways and Krishna himself preaches them. Please see the following statements issued by major sects/religions/ sampradayas:

1. No one comes to God except through Jesus his ONLY son.
2. All is the only true God. Islam is the ONLY true religion.
3. In Kaliyuga Harinaam is the ONLY way to salvation, there is NO OTHER WAY so you can ONLY chant Hare Krsna. All other mantras do not work.

Do you see any similarity in this????

Hindu Vedic Sanatana Dharma does not preach so. That is why it is Sanatana.



You still haven't answered for my questions on the other thread and once you reveal the secret of "How Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, though having difference but are Supreme at same time", your emotional outburst has no merit. If you are going to say ALL IS SHIVA, the vaishnava Sampradayas mostly say, ALL IS VISHNU and you will end up in a no solution cycle of arguments.

First, this is not my emotional outburst as you have wrongfully labeled it. For that I can dive any time within and to the feet of my Guru or isht. This is another sign of arrogant ego - that what other speak is to be put down as emotional outburst, but what you speak has to be the ultimate truth. Where did Chaitanya's teachings go?? - "A devotee of Krsna should be humbler than a blade of grass" ??

The very core error in your question is to "seek a solution in establishing who is supreme".
This famous GOD-POSITIONING agenda of the Gaudiyas is sick to the core and emanates from their egos not bhakti. Seeking to prove superiority is the work of the egos that give rise to competition, jealousies, passionate tamsik yearning to put down others and prove own group's superiority, own deity's superiority over the other.
Question is not whether Vishnu or Shiva is superior, but how far can you reach to any of them.
Question is of your level. Not of the level of the isht dev.

I sincerely hope you can come to this understanding. You can read Shiv Gita to understand why they are different but supreme. if you would like to further pursue this question, then you would also do good answering yourself why Vishnu worshipped Shiva and plucked his very own eye to offer on the Shivalinga and how Shiva gave Sudarshan chakra to Vishnu?! This story is nicely depicted in the Krishn Janmabhoomi temple in Mathura.



On the other hand, if you really want to understand "WHY" Gaudiyas or in general Vaishnavas do or do not worship Devas, as part of your learning, i will be glad to help. With out knowing the philosophy behind the vedantic schools, arguing and accusing the vedantic school's philosophy and methods is like talking about the greatness or weakness of a son of barren woman. Also, it is proven marketing strategy that, ATTACK the POPULAR To get ATTENTION and i am sure most of the people are aware of these kind of techniques.

I do not need to understand or learn Why Gaudiyas do not worship Shiva or other devas. But you could use some help in sadhnas from me instead. I'll be glad to help. I am well aware of Gaudiya philosophy, policies etc. You said, its "Vedantic" school.
VED-AANT. Jahan Ved ka hi Aant ho jaye uske aage kya reh gaya?! Sadhna to gayi bhhad mein.

As far as your comment on "getting attention" is concerned, then none of the other schools of thought try to get as much attention as the Iskconites by jumping up and down in streets in dhotis and sarees, bugging people on airports into buying books with biased purports calling it ultimate yoga and then calling Hinduism as Hodge Podge and Lord Shiva as a mere demi-God in the mode of ignorance. While all the Vedic deities Vishnu, Brahma, Krishn, Rama expressed otherwise. Yet you are Vedic. Amazing. This is what sub-sectarian fanaticism does to people. Its not mainstream Vaishnavism.



To start your learning, ask your Guru's or whatever is your source of learning about the meaning of "PanchaRatra" and the reasons why this method is/was followed. Also learn how and what makes it so different from Tantras etc. If you already know the answers, i wonder why you make so much noise here.
Hare Krshna!

So far I have quoted the words of the Vedas, Lord Brahma, Krishna, Rama.... if all of that is "NOISE" to your ears, then I'd leave you back to the deafening sounds of beating symbols.

If I start learning from you dear, the first lesson would be arrogance. Something that I have no desire to learn. Nor do I have any desire to call people as "fools and rascals".

Fortunately, I'm into practical yoga not getting high on high sounding definitions on Vedanta.
You can prove a point memorize quote numbers, definitions, what next? Is that going to get you out of samsara? Only sadhna matters. That's why Krsna did sadhna, so did Rama, Arjuna and all Vedic saints. And there is a proper method for it. Not loitering in streets with beads. Rituals like yagyas are very much part of it too. They are also recommended by Krishna.

Panchratra as considered by some was ancient name for Vaishnavism and can be panchratri (five nights) or five sects in the vicinity of Mathura. But this understanding is incomplete.

It is accepted by both Madhava and Ramanujacharya. Rather Ramanuja established the Panchratra system in the 11th century to be followed by his followers refuting the teachings of Adi Shankara and worshiping Narayana. He was focused on Narayana and is Vaishnava (following Vishnu). All this is 11th century. NOT the time of LORD RAMA or KRSNA!!!
What I quote and follow is much before. No wonder it appears to you as "noise".
In fact there are very few people who can follow the older path of sadhna combining mantras, rituals, kriya kundalini dhyan yog all in one. All Vedic. Not limited to one and refuting rest.
Ramanuja's central teachings around Pancharatra was that the Isht or Lord manifests himself in 5 fold forms viz.: Para, Vyuha, Vibhava, Antaryamin, and Archa. These five aspects are how the absolute Parabrahman, or Supreme, is how the living beings can interact with the divine. In which Para being the first and main manifestation of the Supreme Being or Para-Brahma. hence the word Par-Brahm. Shiva is also called Para-Brahm. Par-Brahm parameshvara sabke swami..
Lord Shiva - father of the entire cosmic manifestation and beyond (including the above) ... - Lord Brahma.Also, surrender to God is one of the main teachings of Pancharatra and have been categorized into six different aspects. The aspects are also covered in the tantras. For example Lakshmi tantra and Vishnu Tantra. There are a bunch of samhitas that cover it too. Its interesting how Vishvamitra samhita is considered with reverence regarding Pancharatra whereas tantra sadhnas devised by the great Brahmrishi Vishvamitra are unknown to these Vaishnavas.

It is also an irony that Gayatri mantra is chanted by the Gaudiyas, but the great sage Vishvamitra is not remembered nor is know the Rishinyadinyas dhyan of Vishvamitra done by them. This is a part of Vedic mantra sadhna method too apart from other nyas dhyans which are essential for mantra sadhna and siddhi. If all that doesn't matter and all you are following is simple hearted bhakti, then why flaunting of all these definitions and God positioning agenda?!

As far as tantras are concerned, they emanate from Lord Shiva and provide solutions to both material and spiritual life. No wonder so many Hare Krsnas run to tantriks when some problem happens. I've seen this so many times in the west and in India. Real tantra is nothing but connecting with the deity through "vaigyanik" developed methods. I'm purposely not using the word 'scientific' here, as it is essentially limited to matter developed in the past 200 years and science does not recognize the existence of God or even soul.
With kind regards,
Jai Shri Krishn!
Jai Mahakaal!

Yogkriya.

P.S.: Respected Moderator/s, My post has become long in explaining the post of dear Grames and has spilled past the topic of this thread. If you desire we can take it elsewhere, or else I will stop this discussion here with my obeisances to you, Grames and all. Regards. - Yogkriya.

[grames]

Wow.

I really appreciate your patience, time and the effort you have put to write such a long message. It is interesting and also opening a lot of "personal" doors of who Mr YogKriya is rather than the actual history or philosophy or even practice of what to my exposure believed as SD. Let me not write a long message and pollute this thread but, i have certain things to point out here.

First, Oh Boy is just an exclamatory usage and not addressing you in any demeaning way. So i apologize if that small notion created such a havok on your emotional system. Secondly, humility is a very noble quality and i am not still 100% noble enough to be 200% humble all the time. My imperfections are all over the place but i am sincere enough to try to improve my humility by acknowledging my defects. But, can you imagine if two words can create so much discomfort in you, how much discomfort you are creating with your messages here about great Acharyas?

Moving on...

This is one more outburst... utilizing your own words, MY DADDY IS BETTER THAN YOUR DADDY.... dear YogKriya, your entire message is same as "MY" knowledge on VEDA or VEDIC life/practice is better than any Vaishnava. Secondly, a silent poison by bringing in the organization dispute in to a unrelated discussion of ours where we are discussing something about practices, philosophy and faith.

I do see lot of contradictions in your long message and if you happen to do Yoga ( Your own definition of Yoga), why is that you are praising on one side and also chopping the same with razer sharp words on the other side? You said you have understood Gaudiyas but you said on the other hand you do not want to talk about Shri Ramanuja or Shri Madhva etc. Do you know for the fact that, you cannot understand Gaudiyas with out knowing Shri Ramanuja and Shri Madva along with Shri Vishnu swami and Shri Nimbarka. Any self interested interpretation of these great acharya's darshana and then building some conclusions or making sporadic assumption by looking at failed followers CAN NOT be the basis of any intellectual discussion in my opinion. You thought i am throwing stone on neighbors house but it is not my intention but i am pointing out the BOGUS gurus utilizing the saffron cloths and become the saviors of SD and mostly branding themselves as Yoga Centers for Spritual bliss are more inspiring in these days and they are given the status of God, their interpretations are Truths etc. My love is only for those Genuine Gurus belonging to the Authentic Sampradaya and not some tom dick and harry or some Self promoted so called Gurus. I am not ISKCON initiated or occupy any position in any Gaudiya organization or ISKCON so do not assume that i am posting some "defense" here. In fact, my objective is not to post a defense for your complaints but to prove the fact that, Vaishnavaism is much more practical and the Gurus belonging to Vaishnava traditions are as old as human life and they are knowledgeable on veda, vedanta and also they are Yogis, Tapasyas and the greatest Bhaktas who knew the Lord, His prowess and His mercy and also the torch bearer for all the seekers of Lord.

Someone being practical in spiritual practice but engaging in discussion about Who is supreme, throwing blasphemy on Sampradaya, Vaishnavas and great Acharyas does not look following Yogic Dharma and also trying to get away with some sweet words like, " i respect, its ok, its good etc." are just look fake. When Jakki was asked to write a book about his Yoga concepts, he didn't utter a single word and that is what a Yogi is all about. He does not go and complain about the Samparadayas, their practices, their philosophy or appreciate them on one side and generate so much "misunderstood" or not so understood concepts as "not vedic", aganist SD etc.

I have made a point about "Dating" the sampradaya on the other thread but you are again using the same 300-400 years and it is like you dating your Lord Shiva's birth year and day. ( or are you using some shell scripts to post these complaints?)

I also asked these questions...

1. What is "Vedic"?
2. What do you think is the Goal of Vedas?
3. What is then 100% Vedic?
( I added the second question as i am expecting you to go on with more assault on this term "Vedic")

Sri chooses the jiva who she wants to be the Rudra. Siva is servant of Vishnu. Shiva became shiva by the grace of Lord Vishnu. Shiva is born out of Brahma. Shiva executes the orders of Vishnu. Shiva is the abimani devata. Shiva consumed only portion of the hAlaHala poison, that too after the poison potent is reduced. No one remains after pralaya except Vishnu. You know what, such shruti statements are all over the vedas and do not feel too proud or confidant about Lord Shiva's position by reading Shiva Gita alone ( which is rejected portion of Padma Purana - again at least 5 different puranas clearly states that every purana has satvik, rajasic and tamasmic portions. I am sure you will complain about this standard also as biased etc. There are 108 gitas and every gita glorify the devata of that particular Gita. But, all the vedantic schools, traditions accept Bagavat Gita as the Truth and it is fortunately not called as Krshna Gita but since Bagavan is Krsna, this name suffice. ) Since you hinted that you are not interested in who is Supreme, why are you contending here? If ISKCON worships Lord Krshna as Supreme, as per your faith is that Lord Krshna different from your Lord Shiva? Hinduism is monotheism and there is no dispute on this by any SD followers and so if any school accept any form of God, at least as per your faith you should not complain.

Picking two verses for greater explanation....


tasmād bhārata sarvātmā
bhagavān īśvaro hariḥ
śrotavyaḥ kīrtitavyaś ca
smartavyaś cecchatābhayam SB 2.1.5

brahmananam sahasrebhyah
satrayaji visisyate
satrayaji-sahasrebhyah
sarva-vedanta-paragah
sarva-vedanta-vit-kotya
visnu-bhako visisyate ( Gau. Pur)

For my satisfaction, i want to post this beautiful picture of the Gopeshwara who is none other than Lord SadaShiva. :)

http://gosai.com/sites/gosai/files/imagecache/deity_slideshow/deities/Gopesvara_0.jpg

Let me ask you one simple question and close this response as rest of the message have same content. If you know any mantra including Gayatri mantra, can you show me one person that you have known in your life who can utter that Mantra and also derive the 100% benefit of that mantra. And fortunately if you know one such, let me also know how many such people you think you know or how many such people you think can become that in this practical world? Can you become that one?

[Believer]

Arguing with your fellow man is not the way to spirituality.
Sure, you can try to impress people with your knowledge of the English language and your ability to articulate your thoughts; but that will only make you a better debater. Is that what you guys are shooting for?

Let go, and use this time to do japa of whatever mantra lifts you.

[Rasa1976]

"if someone puts down other ways what can be done" - yes there is something that can be done because it is what is coming out of Iskcon!! So you can correct this. Of course during my long association with Iskcon, I have met people who are very respectful to other forms of God and then there are those who are very close narrow minded and would straight away put down devas. A friend of mine, a Prabhupad disciple from the U.S. upon re-confirming with his Godbrothers told me that it is a great blasphemy and OFFENSE to put Shiva at the same level or even near the same altar as Krsna. So such immature fools refuse to accept Krsna in the name of Shiva.

Namaste Yogkriya,

It sounds like you have been alienated and angered by some of the teachings of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism (of which Iskcon is a very small part). This is understandable. But there is a better way of seeing it.

"The bhakta who neither disturbs anyone, nor is himself disturbed by others, and who is free from mundane happiness, intolerance, fear and anxiety is certainly dear to Me". BG 12.15

This indicates that someone who repeatedly causes anger during preaching Krishna Consciousness should be relieved of their preaching assignment and given the opportunity to wash pots, or scrub the floor (if they are lucky). There is also evidence to indicate this type of preaching is not pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. Gaudiyas may have beliefs that directly oppose yours, but knowledgeable devotees know that Krishna-bhakti is always given, never forced.

[Yogkriya]

Wow.

I really appreciate your patience, time and the effort you have put to write such a long message. It is interesting and also opening a lot of "personal" doors of who Mr YogKriya is rather than the actual history or philosophy or even practice of what to my exposure believed as SD.

I'm sure you are into personalism. But there are far too many doors. And the biggest one leads to my sadhna kaksha. As far as the history or philosophy is concerned, the Gaudiya position is such that it rejects all others by default. Even if KRISHNA HIMSELF says something and its not in line with Gaudiyas, they will find a way to work around it an explanation.

Namaste Dear Grames!
I thought, the Hare Krsnas were very good at greetings :)


Let me not write a long message and pollute this thread but, i have certain things to point out here.

First, Oh Boy is just an exclamatory usage and not addressing you in any demeaning way. So i apologize if that small notion created such a havok on your emotional system.

Not an exclamation taught in the Hare Krsna educational system though. :)
It was not an "oh boy" exclamation. It was addressed particularly to me as "Dear BOY". I could almost feel you were going to say hey kid! But I'm glad for your kindness and following humility. My obeisances! Seriously!


Secondly, humility is a very noble quality and i am not still 100% noble enough to be 200% humble all the time. My imperfections are all over the place but i am sincere enough to try to improve my humility by acknowledging my defects. But, can you imagine if two words can create so much discomfort in you, how much discomfort you are creating with your messages here about great Acharyas?

There is no disturbance. But adherence to mutual respect, while still addressing important points in a healthy discussion. I had to address these points that are the cause of alienation of otherwise good sect promoting the beauty of Bhakti.
There is a difference between Acharya and Guru and further between Guru and SatGuru. I treat Acharyas with respect but as HUMANS that can make mistakes. And these mistakes are not to be gulped down AS IT IS along with the nectar of Bhakti as sometimes they act like a drop of lime in a glass of milk. There are politically motivated issues. If they go, then all that is left is bhakti and love. All the problems that today's Iskcon is facing is because of this. Its the core.


Moving on...

This is one more outburst... utilizing your own words, MY DADDY IS BETTER THAN YOUR DADDY.... dear YogKriya, your entire message is same as "MY" knowledge on VEDA or VEDIC life/practice is better than any Vaishnava.

Sorry, but it is not. Again, do not bring in just ANY VAISHNAVA. We are specifically talking about Gaudiyas and ISKCON here. Question is not about Vaishnav sampradaya on the whole. Do not make other Vaishnava brothers share or pay for your problems.



Secondly, a silent poison by bringing in the organization dispute in to a unrelated discussion of ours where we are discussing something about practices, philosophy and faith.

I do see lot of contradictions in your long message and if you happen to do Yoga ( Your own definition of Yoga),
Which is different than singing and dancing and distributing books and eating lots of prasadam and bashing Hinduism.

why is that you are praising on one side and also chopping the same with razer sharp words on the other side?

For one simple reason - I love the fact that the Gaudiyas are about Krishn Bhakti Yoga. Nothing should spoil this. Not even sectarian politics. Not offenses towards others. Not calling saints as fools and rascals. Remember how razor sharp words of Prabhupad were in the west, when he saw hippies wasting precious human life in drugs, free sex and senseless activities aimed at sense gratification alone? What was his purpose? He could just leave them alone and mind his own business i.e. chant Hare Krsna! What was the need for an old man sick of heart trouble do all that? Of course he was also following BhaktiSiddhant Saraswati's orders too.

The other reason is that by the famous criticism of others Gaudiyas invite the inevitable criticism for their own. By following God positioning agenda, they invite a defensive position from others too.
Then, there are 3 positions, a) either we accept this position, which can differ from the Vedas, b) either we condemn it back, c) either we both rather concentrate on harmony and assimilation of Vedic disciplines and if you don't follow them, then at least not criticize others who do.


You said you have understood Gaudiyas but you said on the other hand you do not want to talk about Shri Ramanuja or Shri Madhva etc. Do you know for the fact that, you cannot understand Gaudiyas with out knowing Shri Ramanuja and Shri Madva along with Shri Vishnu swami and Shri Nimbarka.

Arguing in depth Vedanta is not my first passion. It's nice to dig into philosophies, but for what? When you know a lot, you wanna flaunt it. And then endless discussions, just as we are doing it here. Rather I can get closer to my Isht during the hours of my mantra Kriya sadhna anushthans. That will bring more benefit to me. As the great Ramanandi Kabir Das ji said: Pothi pad pad jag mua, bhaya na pandit koi, Dhai akhar prem ka, padhe so pandit hoe". I wonder why the Gaudiyas don't accept sant KABIR DAS ji??? And Goswami Tulasi Das? Mira bai? Sant Tukaram?
Gaudiyas go to more technical references and scrutinization of God. But we have seen neither the Gopis, nor saints like Kabir, Mira, RasKhan etc.. ever knew of of various intricate demarcations arguing over them. Yet they achieved their aim. Why??

When your Agya and Anahat chakra opens all these knowledges are present in front of you. When such a sadhak reads a scripture, the inner meanings are immediately revealed to him while the pandits are arguing over Ramanuja, Madhava and others. Yet, knowing the scriptures help develop a general understanding which is good.


Any self interested interpretation of these great acharya's darshana and then building some conclusions or making sporadic assumption by looking at failed followers CAN NOT be the basis of any intellectual discussion in my opinion.

I agree with you dear Grames. And I am not assuming as per failed followers. As far as I know, Shri Prabhupad was considered as a "pure devotee". And now Shri 'Narayan Maharaj' followers are declaring him the same. Soon he may be declared as a small 'channa' avatar, who knows. And he's busy bashing all of Iskcon and claiming that the only place bhakti is there is only in his camp, nowhere else in this world. This is what politics does to a good follower when instead of worrying about Krishna, he worries about spreading out branches and marketing into the material world that is dictated by the prakriti or Maya.



You thought i am throwing stone on neighbors house but it is not my intention


I'm glad to know that bandhu.


but i am pointing out the BOGUS gurus utilizing the saffron cloths and become the saviors of SD and mostly branding themselves as Yoga Centers for Spritual bliss are more inspiring in these days and they are given the status of God, their interpretations are Truths etc.

I agree again. But all of that we have seen within Iskcon too. So the fakes are the fakes and we don't follow them. But at the same time, we also don't have to lump into fake category every non-Gaudiya Guru and label him as 'Bogus'.


My love is only for those Genuine Gurus belonging to the Authentic Sampradaya and not some tom dick and harry or some Self promoted so called Gurus.

Sampradayas are four mainly. But Guru parampara is important. As I said before, in Tantra, a follower is mostly connected with shaktis or you can say following Shakta sampradaya. The ten Mahavidyas, Bhairavs, and there is also worship of Shiva. So what "SAMPRADAYA" would you call it since it takes both Shaiv and Shakt? There are tantrik mantras for Lord Hanuman. And Hanuman is Ram Bhakta. Hanuman is Rudra-avatara, and Ram worshipped Shiva and Surya (He was Surya vanshi). Mata Sita's parental family also worshipped Shiva and Raja Janak had the famous SHiv Dhanush. So what Sampradaya is it??? THIS my friend is VEDIC HINDU SANATANA DHARMA.
And this is what I'm trying to put across to you. The clenched fist of Sampradaya must open and be accepting. This is a short comming. Be it Prabhupad, Bhaktivinod Thakur or Gowami Tulasidas or anyone else, THOUGH they were all wonderful great bhaktas saints. Some of them God realized! But I'm simply addressing the political differentiating part here.



I am not ISKCON initiated or occupy any position in any Gaudiya organization or ISKCON so do not assume that i am posting some "defense" here. In fact, my objective is not to post a defense for your complaints but to prove the fact that, Vaishnavaism is much more practical and the Gurus belonging to Vaishnava traditions are as old as human life and they are knowledgeable on veda, vedanta and also they are Yogis, Tapasyas and the greatest Bhaktas who knew the Lord, His prowess and His mercy and also the torch bearer for all the seekers of Lord.

That is great! And I am well aware of it all too. So what's there to prove? My life has come about due to mercy of one such saint Vaishnav Yogi from Ramanand sampradaya who lived for 300 years around the same time as Nanak (During Shahjahan's time).
But again, we are talking Iskcon and Gaudiya here. As nobody concentrates so much on the differences and our knowledge superior, as the Gaudiyas do.
I think your stance as Gaudiya/Iskcon has changed here now. Now you are not into Gaudiya sampradaya sect?


Someone being practical in spiritual practice but engaging in discussion about Who is supreme, throwing blasphemy on Sampradaya, Vaishnavas and great Acharyas does not look following Yogic Dharma and also trying to get away with some sweet words like, " i respect, its ok, its good etc." are just look fake.

You are right here again Grames, Yogis do not partake futile Vedanta discussions. This is the work of pandaas. When I say "its good or I respect something", then I mean it and not fake it. Again, addressing problems is not automatically blaspheming all Vaishnavas. Rather just checking on a few problems within the Gaudiya / Iskcon camp about blaspheming all others, great Acharyas, Gurus as Fools and Rascals, Pasandis, Moodhas, (heck even Yogis are moodhas and materialists for you), demi-God, Hodge-Podge, Chandalas, karmis.. all such abuse hurlings. These are the Aparadhas and blasphemies that these bhaktas engage into at times, that not only waste their bhati, but also earns them reactions for the same. And we can easily see this in the watering down of Iskcon too.
On the contrary, I'm encouraging you to adhere to the acharyas, general Vaishnava teachings and above all Lord Krishna and his bhakti.



When Jakki was asked to write a book about his Yoga concepts, he didn't utter a single word and that is what a Yogi is all about. He does not go and complain about the Samparadayas, their practices, their0 philosophy or appreciate them on one side and generate so much "misunderstood" or not so understood concepts as "not vedic", aganist SD etc.

Its good to conserve one's energies and not engage in talking. If this is Yoga, then why it is not practiced by the Gaudiyas? Yogis and Yoga is not limited to keeping silent or having maun vrat. When I do my 40 days anushthan, I hardly speak. But in society sometimes, for people who don't get knowledge through the awakening of gyan indriyas / divya chakshu or opening of chakras, speaking has to come ahead.
But regardless, Kaliyuga is deteriorating further, as is established in the wheel of time by Mahakaal, the wielder of Maya and time.

It is also duty of a yogi to point out if something is passed as ancient Vedic practice and all of the yogic practices and mantras are simply cancelled out. He should also refer to a group if they are simply cancelling all of Hindu Sanatana Dharma as hodge-podge and hailing their own group as ONLY authentic and bona-fide and rest as unimportant. It's good to point out the ego trips. Each time, a new group comes out of Sanatana Hindu mainstream, it tries to earn its separate identity.
But technically, Vedic Hindu Sanatana Dharma has Vaishnavism as one of its main sampradayas and Hare Krsnas belong to it too as a sub-sampradaya sect of it. So it makes them Hindus Sanatanis too.[/QUOTE]


I have made a point about "Dating" the sampradaya on the other thread but you are again using the same 300-400 years and it is like you dating your Lord Shiva's birth year and day. ( or are you using some shell scripts to post these complaints?)

Shiva is not mine alone. He is the father and the mother of the whole cosmic manifestation and beyond: Brahma - " O siva , I know that You are the Supreme controller(Parameswara), You are both the father and the mother of the entire cosmic manifestation and as the one ever auspicious and supreme brahman who is beyond cosmic manifestation" (SB 4:6:42 )

Shiva is neither born nor he dies. He is without a beginning or an end. So, there is no birth day or year for him. 300-400 years old is the Gaudiya sub-sampradaya. I know you don't like this mentioning, hence your sharp reaction on Lord Shiva.


I also asked these questions...

1. What is "Vedic"?
I have explained that before. Vedic culture certainly didn't sprout up 400 years back.

2. What do you think is the Goal of Vedas?

Goal of the Vedas is to Self realization and understanding of God. So there are 4 purusharthas that human life should aim to go through described in the Vedas. 1. Dharm, 2. Arth, 3. Kaam, 4. Moksh.

You cannot go directly to the fourth purushartha without satisfying the first 3.
Just as an ant cannot climb to the top of a tree without first going over the base and then the trunk.
Nor can you do that without this material body that is ignored in the Gaud concept.


3. What is then 100% Vedic?
( I added the second question as i am expecting you to go on with more assault on this term "Vedic")

I have already explained that in another post. We feel, the term Vedic is used by Hare Krsnas for promoting own organization/s and implying more authority and to convince people. They don't necessarily accept or follow all Vedic practices. I have explained that Prabhupad is not all 100% Vedic before. What's the use of repeating again and again? Besides, if you take my explanations as a mere "assault", then I will better conserve my energies for better things :)


Sri chooses the jiva who she wants to be the Rudra. Siva is servant of Vishnu. Shiva became shiva by the grace of Lord Vishnu. Shiva is born out of Brahma. Shiva executes the orders of Vishnu. Shiva is the abimani devata. Shiva consumed only portion of the hAlaHala poison, that too after the poison potent is reduced. No one remains after pralaya except Vishnu.

So why does Vishnu worship Shiva by offering his own eye on Shivalinga??? Why does he have to seek boons from Shiva? The very powerful Sudarshan chakra was granted to Vishnu Rishi by none other than Lord Shiva. Do you know this? Why did Vishnu worship Shiva in every incarnation? Be it Rama or Krishna? Of course you can reject all of that! Claiming to follow Krishna, you reject Krishna's own words and deeds. This is called double standards.
Shiva alone creates as Brahma, preserves as Vishnu and annihilates the cosmic manifestation. Your above said view is Gaudiya and claiming of Shiva as "servant" of Vishnu and not able to drink Halahala etc. Then you claim you are not with Gaudiyas or Iskcon. So whom are you with? Ritviks? Who give initiation in dreams and through tape recorders and claim there is no other Guru for the next 10,000 years except Prabhupad?? lol..
Why can't you honestly admit you are Gaudiya if all your religious-poitical thought is Gaudiya?!

Eka eva rudra na dvitīyāya tasthur ( Yajurveda 1:8:6 d)
ie., Rudra is truly one for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second.

If Shiva became Shiva by the grace of Vishnu, then why couldn't Vishnu and Brahma together not know the source of Shiva? Both Brahma and Vishnu go to search through the entire galaxy of universes but are not able to find the beginning or end of the fire Linga that appears before them. This subserviant stories are part of mistranslations by Gaud acharyas to put Shiva down in the servant position and Vishnu or rather Krishna up.
So tell me why did Rama, Krishna had to worship Shiva??
What's the workaround this? I"m sure the Gaudiyas have made up explanations for everything.


You know what, such shruti statements are all over the vedas and do not feel too proud or confidant about Lord Shiva's position by reading Shiva Gita alone ( which is rejected portion of Padma Purana - again at least 5 different puranas clearly states that every purana has satvik, rajasic and tamasmic portions. I am sure you will complain about this standard also as biased etc.

Not Shiva Gita alone. But why should you REJECT Shiva Gita???? You have no value for the words of Lord RAMACHANDRA who is none other than Krishna or Vishnu?? So you REJECT his bhakti while glorifying your own?? You call Shiva as number one Vaishnava and yet reject his glorification?? This is the double standard and hypocrisy that I want to address to. Krishna bows down to Shiva but you will not?!! Prabhupad will not?
In Chaitanya's time, there has been worship of Ardhnarishwara in his place and there is a temple dedicated to this day to Lord Shiva and Parvati that has regular worship there too. So these people are not closed minded.
I tell you the Hare Krsna understanding of Tamasik and satvik purana - ones glorifying Krishna as supreme are satvik. Ones glorifying Shiva are tamasik. Simple. There is not much to ponder over here. All are written by Vyasa.
He has no problem glorifying Devi or Shiv, just as Rama or Krishna don't have problem either. Hare Krsnas do. And that is not in line with Vedic thought of Krishna, Rama, VedVyasa and several other rishis, sages. But it is in line with Prabhupad and Bhaktivinod Thakur.



There are 108 gitas and every gita glorify the devata of that particular Gita.

That is all fine. If your Ishta is Ganesh, you have Ganesh Gita that will instill more faith in Ganesh. Ved Vyasa was gyani.


But, all the vedantic schools, traditions accept Bagavat Gita as the Truth and it is fortunately not called as Krshna Gita but since Bagavan is Krsna, this name suffice. )

That is okay. I accept Bhagvad Gita AS IT WAS, not the Prabhupad colored biased purports. I also accept the great Shiv Gita and Guru Gita.
Shri Adi Shankaracharya wrote Gita Bhashya - commentaries on Gita. So did many other learned scholars. Prabhupada wanted to perch himself above the rest, so he said AS IT IS. How can he even understand it as it is, when you need to have the insight of Krishna to do that?? The previous acharyas like Shankara were more humble and called it commentary. They gave their own commentary. Shankara was a poorna Shiddha purush an avatara of Lord Shiva as even Prabhupad accepts.
But one needs to understand Gita in its totality to deliver it as it is.
Its not possible to practice all of that in one lifetime. Prabhupad talked about understanding SOUL. Could he take out his soul our of his body at will and enter another body? Shankara demonstrated that. I'm not flaunting anything here. But please understand, Bhagvad Gita is great, but it's not about book printing or distribution sales.


Since you hinted that you are not interested in who is Supreme, why are you contending here?

I am not contending this here. I am questioning the ones who are contending it constantly.


If ISKCON worships Lord Krshna as Supreme, as per your faith is that Lord Krshna different from your Lord Shiva? Hinduism is monotheism and there is no dispute on this by any SD followers and so if any school accept any form of God, at least as per your faith you should not complain.

But there IS NO complaint regarding that!! Its an answer to complaint and abuse. If you go to Hare Krsna temple, you are told that people of lower intelligence worship "Demi"-Gods and Shiva is a Demi God. So was Krishna unaware of this? Was Ram unaware of this? Only Hare Krsnas are aware of this?




Picking two verses for greater explanation....

tasmād bhārata sarvātmā
bhagavān īśvaro hariḥ
śrotavyaḥ kīrtitavyaś ca
smartavyaś cecchatābhayam SB 2.1.5

brahmananam sahasrebhyah
satrayaji visisyate
satrayaji-sahasrebhyah
sarva-vedanta-paragah
sarva-vedanta-vit-kotya
visnu-bhako visisyate ( Gau. Pur)

For my satisfaction, i want to post this beautiful picture of the Gopeshwara who is none other than Lord SadaShiva. :)

http://gosai.com/sites/gosai/files/imagecache/deity_slideshow/deities/Gopesvara_0.jpg

Thank you for the beautiful verses and picture of Lord Gopeshwar Mahadev Grames. Have you seen the pictures or visited Mahakaal in Ujjai? Or Amarnaath or Lord Rameshvaram where Lord Ramachandra performed worship of Lord Shiva? They are also beautiful.
A few verses again:
"Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the UNIVERSE'S FATHER. HIM GREAT AND LOFTY, BLISSFUL, imperishable(ACHYUTAM), LET US CALL SPECIALLY AS THE SAGE IMPELS US". ( Rigveda 6:49:10 )

"He(Rudra) through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power." ( Rig veda 7:46:2 )

We Worship Tryambaka(shiva), Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He LIBERATE (moksha) us, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give us Immorality.( Rig veda 7 :59 :12 )

LORD OF ALL BEINGS ART THOU IN GLORY, Rudra, armed with the thunder, MIGHTIEST OF THE MIGHTY. Transport us over trouble to well-being repel thou from us all assaults of mischief. ( Rig veda 2:33:3 )

Yajurveda:
There is Shri Rudram in Taittariya samhita of Yajurveda.(4.5 ). It is otherwise called shatharudriyam. let us see what it says about Rudra.
"Namasteastu bhagavan vishvesvaraya mahadevaya
triyambakaya triupurantakaya trikalagni kalaya kalaagni Rudraya nilakanthaya mrutyunjayaya sarveshvaraya sadashivaya
Sriman mahadevaya Namah ( First Anuvaka)
meaning:
"Let my salutations be to that great God who is the Lord of the universes; the great God who has three eyes and who destroys Tripura, the three Asura cities. To that God who is the Dandhya time when the three sacred fires are lit; who is Rudra the fire that consumes the universe; whose throat is blue; who has conquered death; the Lord of all; the ever auspicious one; salutations to that glorious and great God."

Let us see another verse from it
Namo Bhavaya Cha Rudraya Cha Namah Sharvaya Cha Pashupataye Cha
Namo Nilagrivaya Cha Shitikanthaya Cha
Namah Kapardine Cha Vyuptakeshaya Cha
Namah Sahasrakshaya Cha Shatadhanvane Cha
Namo Girishaya Cha Shipivishhtaya Cha (Fifth Anuvaka)
meaning:
Salutations to Him who is the source of all things and to Him who is the destroyer of all ills. Salutations to the destroyer and to the protector of all beings in bondage. Salutations to Him whose throat is black and whose throat is also white. Salutations to Him of the matted locks, and to Him who is clean-shaven. Salutations to Him who has a Thousand eyes and a hundred bows. Salutations to Him who dwells on the mount and who is in the form of Shipivista (Vishnu).

Vedik Rishis have gone even further . They are calling Rudra as 'Bhavaya' ie., 'source' . How can he be called source of everything ? Only creator could be the source of everything . They called him 'pasupati' .All living beings are called 'pashu', because it is a metaphor and 'Pati' means one who 'rules' or 'protects'. oh !! here he is called protector and Destroyer as well. All three activities ie., Creation, protection and Destruction by Rudra himself ? How could he do all the three things ? They also called Rudra as 'shipivista'(vishnu) !! it is epithet of 'Vishnu' in the Yajurveda .

These were just a few interesting verses again in continuance. And then again, I appreciate the verses that you wrote too.



Let me ask you one simple question and close this response as rest of the message have same content. If you know any mantra including Gayatri mantra, can you show me one person that you have known in your life who can utter that Mantra and also derive the 100% benefit of that mantra. And fortunately if you know one such, let me also know how many such people you think you know or how many such people you think can become that in this practical world? Can you become that one?

I know more than one such persons. And I am one of them too, as I have seen results of mantras in my own practical life.
But the question is vague as you have not defined, what is the definition of 100% benefit of a mantra as you think.
I am also amazed at the disbelief that your sub-sampradaya sect is honing about mantra vigyan, if you think that except Gayatri and Hare Krsna mantra mantra no other mantra is potent. There are hundreds of such mantras and so many sadhaks who have not only seen but manifested the power of mantras in the lives of others and their disciples.

One of them was my Guru who's mission was to resurrect the lost ancient Vedik sciences and give them back to people. His picture is my avatara.
And the Guru parampara relates back to Siddhashram. Yogis of the highest order know this place and ever eager to enter it, but only a very few chosen ones can. Its not possible for a common man to enter here and it has been into existence for thousands of years.

I have seen mantra shakti also of many of my God brothers. And I have seen it in my own life. Its nothing superficial or supernatural, if you understand mantra sadhna and deity properly.

Namaskar and well wishes!

Jai Gurudev!

YogKriya

[Yogkriya]

Namaste Yogkriya,

It sounds like you have been alienated and angered by some of the teachings of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism (of which Iskcon is a very small part). This is understandable. But there is a better way of seeing it.

"The bhakta who neither disturbs anyone, nor is himself disturbed by others, and who is free from mundane happiness, intolerance, fear and anxiety is certainly dear to Me". BG 12.15

This indicates that someone who repeatedly causes anger during preaching Krishna Consciousness should be relieved of their preaching assignment and given the opportunity to wash pots, or scrub the floor (if they are lucky). There is also evidence to indicate this type of preaching is not pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. Gaudiyas may have beliefs that directly oppose yours, but knowledgeable devotees know that Krishna-bhakti is always given, never forced.

Namaste dear Rasa!
My obeisances!

Your post is meaningful.

The word may be yogi or bhakta in BG verse translation, either way, it is good. I just remembered a line of revelation from Shri Lahiri Mahasaya's personal notes. He was the lion of Kriya yog and the dadaGuru of Shri Paramhansa Yogananda. He observes as the prana is still in agya chakra and khechri mudra is there, there is no disturbance.

If the Gaudiyas are busy loving Krishna there can be no disturbance either. They are and will be blessed for that.

Warm regards,

YogKriya

[Adhvagat]

I got to know the Vedas through ISKCON. Began studying them through ISKCON.

I have the utmost respect for what Prabhupada accomplished, however, I must vote against ISKCON on this.

It is also a common to go through these awkward situations on ISKCON temples, specially on activities other than the sunday festival.

They usually charge too much for a given activity and charge people in a weird manner.

Notice that I'm only generalizing because I went through this several times with several people. I'm not implying there's a shady money scheme in there, it's just the way ISKCON was formed. It needed a lot of money, the street sankirtan was a great way to spread the word, however I think times changed... But ISKCON did not change.

And ISKCON will die because of this, as a matter of fact, it already began dying here in Brazil. Let me clarify this statement:

ISKCON as we know it will end. It can't accomplish what it did before and it doesn't need to. A change of profile is going to happen, more focused on educating people properly.

I get really jumpy when discussing this because ISKCON position in the western world is a really delicated one and I think some criticisms don't consider that.

In Brazil, one sannyasi left his position as a guru and sannyasi, another went through a relly embarassing sexual scandal, and the three left have really GREAT social and spiritual programs.

One rural self-sufficient community, one bhakti-shastra education program and one Rural community with a Krishna-Balaram temple and a guest house, diffcult to describe this latter properly, but Ashram Vrajabhumi is run by a swami that publishes lots of great books on the Gita and Bhagavatam and is also a great musician, so he has several albums and always make projects with good Brazilian musicians as well, a great way to dissiminate Sanatana Dharma here in the west if you ask me.

What is happening? Well, ISKCON is decharacterizing as a large institution here. These three separate entities (if i'm not mistaken) are dettaching themselves from ISKCON and becoming independent, perhaps foreseeing a future imminent ISKCON breakdown, and have all its property and spiritual projects lost because of problems not caused by them is just bad.

The focus of sankirtan WILL change. Distributing books in the streets is not the best practice anymore. ISKCON needs to form great vedic researchers, with good education, that can make a nice bridge from western material knowledge to sanatana dharma.

Mentioning this word bridge makes me think about a lot of things and thinking of ISKCON as a bridge is a nice analogy for me. I'd say it bridged the world to India, but that wouldn't be right, what it did was bridging the Vedas to the rest of the world, as it once was.

I also read a lot of criticism about issues in India, but for that I can't say much. Much of it extends even before I was born and into another country which I know almost nothing about.

I'm sure ISKCON will free itself from bad administrations and improve into aspects where common sense is not being used at its best.

As a devotee of the Vedas and the helpful feedback of this diverse community I hope to futurely help in this quest for the second birth of ISKCON.

[Believer]

Pietro,

Thank you for giving us a Brazilian perspective on ISKCON.

With all his faults, Prabhupad brought the Vedic knowledge to the West. Whether the Westerners continue to embrace it or discard it as the time goes by, depends on the strength of character of the leaders who inherited the movement. Many a times, the message is lost because of the flaws of the messenger, or certain restriction enforced on the adherents. If that happens, it will be your loss, as the Sanatan Dharma will continue to thrive in its place of birth. In the West, ISKCON does not have a wide support even among the Indian community because,

1. It tried to distance itself from Hinduism, for whatever reason, and some negative things were written/said about the leaders of other sampradayes.
2. As Gaudiya Vaishavanism sampradaye grew out of the Bengal area, all the bhajans/aartis composed by their revered gurus are in Bengali language. That limits their popularity with a large majority of the Indians for whom Hindi is the common link language.
3. With decline in their fund-raising capability, they sometimes do indulge in questionable practices.
4. Some more deficiencies (???) unpalatable to an average Hindu.

At the end of the day, we must overlook all the meaningless/petty flaws in every Sanatan Dharma sampradaye and pull together for the greater good of our faith and of the mankind. But many of us cannot avoid the temptation to throw barbs at other sampradayes; not realizing that collectively, we are only hurting ourselves. Weakening any sampradaye only weakens a support pillar of the great Vedic Dharma.

As they say, that is Kala Yuga for you!

[Yogkriya]

I got to know the Vedas through ISKCON. Began studying them through ISKCON.


Dear Pietro,

Namaste!

How you "got to know the Vedas" through Iskcon, when Iskcon doesn't have Vedic studies? Its a different thing that they name everything they do as "VEDIC" for it to sound more convincing.
The main scriptures that Iskcon teachings revolve around are Bhagvad Gita, Shrimad Bhagvatam, Chaitanya Charitamrta one Brahma Samhita and a few others.. But all must be sanctioned Iskcon BBT VERSIONS. Not just any other BG is accepted. But the one translated by Shri Prabhupad with commentaries limited to Iskcon thought line only. Same is the case with SB. In fact I've heard that the GBC has added some more verses later on. All scriptures are translated to match Gaudiya line of philosophy discrediting any other "VEDIC" thought. No other Vedic mantras, rituals, Vedic methods of worship, yoga meditation etc is allowed. Everything else is a no no.
One can learn something ABOUT the Vedas in Isckon which is appreciable, but not the Vedas.
And yes I agree what Srila Prabhupad did for propagating his own sampradaya around the world is appreciable and good. Not many people can do that. For which the glory goes to him.
Jai Shri Krishna!

YogKriya

[Yogkriya]

Pietro,

Thank you for giving us a Brazilian perspective on ISKCON.

With all his faults, Prabhupad brought the Vedic knowledge to the West. Whether the Westerners continue to embrace it or discard it as the time goes by, depends on the strength of character of the leaders who inherited the movement. Many a times, the message is lost because of the flaws of the messenger, or certain restriction enforced on the adherents. If that happens, it will be your loss, as the Sanatan Dharma will continue to thrive in its place of birth. In the West, ISKCON does not have a wide support even among the Indian community because,

1. It tried to distance itself from Hinduism, for whatever reason, and some negative things were written/said about the leaders of other sampradayes.
2. As Gaudiya Vaishavanism sampradaye grew out of the Bengal area, all the bhajans/aartis composed by their revered gurus are in Bengali language. That limits their popularity with a large majority of the Indians for whom Hindi is the common link language.
3. With decline in their fund-raising capability, they sometimes do indulge in questionable practices.
4. Some more deficiencies (???) unpalatable to an average Hindu.

At the end of the day, we must overlook all the meaningless/petty flaws in every Sanatan Dharma sampradaye and pull together for the greater good of our faith and of the mankind. But many of us cannot avoid the temptation to throw barbs at other sampradayes; not realizing that collectively, we are only hurting ourselves. Weakening any sampradaye only weakens a support pillar of the great Vedic Dharma.

As they say, that is Kala Yuga for you!

Dear Believer,

Namaskar!

You said:
"At the end of the day, we must overlook all the meaningless/petty flaws in every Sanatan Dharma sampradaye and pull together for the greater good of our faith and of the mankind."

Yes I agree with this of course hundred percent. Its an appreciable thought. Sanatana Dharma includes different thoughts and sampradayas. Then what is the difference between it and Hindu Dharma?
It IS the HINDU SANATANA DHARMA indeed. But all other thoughts were not acceptable to Shri Prabhupad.
"1. It tried to distance itself from Hinduism, for whatever reason"
- This was the reason. Shri Prabhupad did not subscribe to the VEDIC thought as a whole. But just one narrow stream in it. And insisted on calling it the wholesome VEDIC culture. HINDU SANATANA DHARMA includes all Vedic thoughts together. So its "hodge-podge" for him. So he called Vedas as Hodge-Podge, but insisted that one narrow line of thought is all Vedic culture.

"2. As Gaudiya Vaishavanism sampradaye grew out of the Bengal area, all the bhajans/aartis composed by their revered gurus are in Bengali language. That limits their popularity with a large majority of the Indians for whom Hindi is the common link language."

I would differ from that really. Bhajans, Artis etc. from other areas worshipping the same God Krishna are deliberately canceled out of Iskcon. Mostly Gaudiya Bengali acharyas are exclusively preached. No Mira bai is allowed. This explanation that since they were Bengalis everything is in Bengali and Hindi speaking are limited is not true. The Hindi speaking people readily accept and read Shri Ram Krishn Paramhansa, Shri Vivekananda, Rabindranath Tagore, Paramahansa Yogananda, Shri Yukteswar Giri, Shri Lahiri Mahasaya, Bamakshepa, Shri Anandmoi ma, and so on. The land of Bengal has not been very prosperous in material sense, but it has produced great spiritual stalwarts over the centuries. And the general India public accepted and were drawn towards them. Moreover, works of Prabhupad have been well translated in every Indian language and language of the world!! So we can cancel this reason out altogether.

Fact is that the Gaudiya sub-sampradaya and sects there of limit their own selves from the rest of the Sanatanis and Vedic thoughts insisting that theirs is the only way, all other ways are not acceptable and less intelligent.

"RamaKrishna is fool and Rascal is he worships Kaali. He cannot worship Krishna?"
"What this Tagore is writing? All rubbish! What's the use if he's not writing about Krishna?! Fool!"
- Shri Prabhupad. :)
So we see how it is limited in its own self. The Hindu Sanatana Vedic thought is broad minded and accepts different schools of thoughts. It is not "hodge-podge". It is simply more. Just as God cannot be narrowed down to playing flute and sporting with Gopis ONLY. God has other dimensions, possibilities, with and without forms or multiple forms. God cannot be limited. God can appear limited to us due to the attachment of our ego to his one form or quality. There is nothing wrong with it either. And God himself does appear limited for us. That's his compassion. He may appear to us in a limited form.
For RasKhan, Krishna had to appear as BalMukunda as a child. Not as Yogeswara Shri Krishn as for Arjuna. Raskhan's level of thinking was different than of Arjuna.

I'm sure if Krishna appears in a designer modern suit, we will cancel him out. Krishna in coat and pants? Impossible!!! This can't be Krishna!!!
And this is our limitation. Our material eyes and vision.

If Shri Prabhupad's vision was attached more to one way of worship, then there is nothing wrong. His attachment and love to Lord Krishna was very strong. But them there are other saints with a little different Vedic thought and their attachment to krishna may be in a different way and form than Iskcon and Shri Prabhupad. That's all fine. We are all one etc.
I love my God this way and you love him that way. But my attachment doesn't make your attachment wrong simply because I like my way better.
Lord Krishna in BG saya in whatever form you worship me, I give you the results and come to you in that form. :)
So other worshippers of Krishna Rama, Shiva were not fools but as respectable and adorable as Shri Prabhupad. :)

An organization needs money to run. Sometimes Iskcon needs more, maybe because it wants lots of celebrations, advertisements and other things. Also things for example the sarees, spices, statues etc sold in an Iskcon temple abroad are sometimes twice more than the price of a commercial Indian outlet there. Yet I would want Iskcon to be there. Because its still better than a lot of others. It promotes the regulatory principles. No bad habbits etc. It promotes satvik Vaishnav way of life that is appreciable always.

OM SHAM!
Jai Gurudev! Jai Shri Krsna!

YogKriya

[Adhvagat]

Dear Pietro,

Namaste!

How you "got to know the Vedas" through Iskcon, when Iskcon doesn't have Vedic studies? Its a different thing that they name everything they do as "VEDIC" for it to sound more convincing.
The main scriptures that Iskcon teachings revolve around are Bhagvad Gita, Shrimad Bhagvatam, Chaitanya Charitamrta one Brahma Samhita and a few others.. But all must be sanctioned Iskcon BBT VERSIONS. Not just any other BG is accepted. But the one translated by Shri Prabhupad with commentaries limited to Iskcon thought line only. Same is the case with SB. In fact I've heard that the GBC has added some more verses later on. All scriptures are translated to match Gaudiya line of philosophy discrediting any other "VEDIC" thought. No other Vedic mantras, rituals, Vedic methods of worship, yoga meditation etc is allowed. Everything else is a no no.
One can learn something ABOUT the Vedas in Isckon which is appreciable, but not the Vedas.
And yes I agree what Srila Prabhupad did for propagating his own sampradaya around the world is appreciable and good. Not many people can do that. For which the glory goes to him.
Jai Shri Krishna!

YogKriya

ISKCON allowed me to reach where I am now, searching more knowledge about the Vedas.

And here I am now reading all this topics from this community, pondering about different views on Shiva (which I already worked in my head for some time), reading the knowledge of all these people that have a very different reality than my own.

ISKCON may not have Vedic studies now (if you don't classify Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam as Vedic), but if it depends on me and a dear friend of mine which I believe someday may have choose the sannyasi ashram, it will.

I'll try to make ISKCON a better representative of Sanatana Dharma inside my own capabilities.

I'll read your responses to Believer calmly later.

Thanks.

Om Tat Sat.

[shian]

Acctually i have read ISCKON book who said beliefe about impersonal God and union with impersonal God is more evil than devil. Or i was make misunderstanding when i read this ???

[Believer]

Pietro,

As you might have noticed, many of the posts in this forum fit the following format:
________________________________________________________
My obeisances,

You are an A$$hole.

Best wishes.
Jai Shri Krishna or Hare Krishna or Om Namah Shivaye, or whatever.
________________________________________________________

Lot of people here are very vitriolic about ISKCON. I can see that you have benefited immensely from it, as it has opened the doors for you to grow spiritually. Don't listen to, or argue with your detractors. Many of my fellow Hindus have no desire to grow spiritually. Their only aim is to debate issues and try to show that they are superior to you. Ignore the frivolous posts and use the time to do your chanting. I am sure it is painful for you to read many of the things in this forum. Just stay focused and learn as much as possible about the Vedic philosophy and Vedic traditions. You have found the right path and I wish you all the best on your journey on this path.

[Adhvagat]

Well, if our material manifestation is nothing but the spiritual origin going through several bodily layers, I'm sure there's something pure in what may be seen as an offense.

I'll try to take something good out of it and move on.

Prabhupada also emphasized in the ISKCON books that a devotee is someone who can extract gold from the trash. A good quality to develop in Kali-yuga indeed.

Please notice that I never read anything that resembled a gratuitous offense in this forum, every opinion was highly constructive and made me think a lot. I am by no means classifying any posts here as offensive.

[Yogkriya]

Well, if our material manifestation is nothing but the spiritual origin going through several bodily layers, I'm sure there's something pure in what may be seen as an offense.

I'll try to take something good out of it and move on.

Prabhupada also emphasized in the ISKCON books that a devotee is someone who can extract gold from the trash. A good quality to develop in Kali-yuga indeed.

Please notice that I never read anything that resembled a gratuitous offense in this forum, every opinion was highly constructive and made me think a lot. I am by no means classifying any posts here as offensive.

Very appreciable post Pietro!
May God bless you.
my regards,
Yogkriya

[Yogkriya]

Pietro,

As you might have noticed, many of the posts in this forum fit the following format:
________________________________________________________
My obeisances,

You are an A$$hole.

Best wishes.
Jai Shri Krishna or Hare Krishna or Om Namah Shivaye, or whatever.
________________________________________________________

Lot of people here are very vitriolic about ISKCON. I can see that you have benefited immensely from it, as it has opened the doors for you to grow spiritually. Don't listen to, or argue with your detractors. Many of my fellow Hindus have no desire to grow spiritually. Their only aim is to debate issues and try to show that they are superior to you. Ignore the frivolous posts and use the time to do your chanting. I am sure it is painful for you to read many of the things in this forum. Just stay focused and learn as much as possible about the Vedic philosophy and Vedic traditions. You have found the right path and I wish you all the best on your journey on this path.

Dear Iskcon/spiritual Believer,
Namaste!
Most Hindus have no desire to grow spiritually? So why are they interested in Spiritual topics here? The ones who are not interested in spirituality go to night clubs and not bother about Iskcon or Hindu dharma :)

Maybe someone got that impression from Iskcon although. Criticism reflects back criticism. Maybe someone got the critical attitude towards other sampradayas from Isckon temple or books. So he reflects that back as a question or doubt.

Nectar of Devotion: Prabhupad claims yogis to be materialistic beings and that they meditate on their body parts (Material objects). Further translation goes like this - various chakras like svadhishthan (intestines).... and so on.. the chakras in the subtle body are compared to intestines etc. Neat!

I was reading the importance of forgiveness the other day. Criticism justified or not should be forgiven as a spiritual virtue. But the problem with religions leaders being not careful with their criticism is that the following generations feel obliged to keep on repeating them. And hence generating a counter reflection of their criticism from the society.

People who are interested in religion and spirituality only start pondering about it. Because they are interested in it. I agree with you that chanting mantra would give more benefit though than argumentation. But sometimes that also is necessary to have a better insight into things.
Regards,
Namaskar.
YogKriya