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proudhindu
04 March 2010, 07:19 AM
Keval advaitha interpretation of tatvamasi is that everything is Brahman.


Tatvamasi appears in Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7, in the dialogue between Uddalaka and his son Svetaketu.


If the Advaitan(kevala) interpretation that everybody is Brahman is valid then Uddalaka should have stopped there and then itself.

Who is teaching and who is being taught ?.

Is the Brahman(Uddalaka) teaching Brahman(svetaketu)?.

And why would brahman(svetaketu) listen to Brahman(Uddalaka)?.

More later.

smaranam
04 March 2010, 07:31 AM
praNAm ProudHindu

I shall look forward to the more later you have said.

The antaryAmi does not cease to amaze me. Yesterday I was thinking of exactly this point - the famous qn : "the teacher and taught - why bother ?"
Which needs to be addressed in Saidevoji's advaita thread to answer the professor - (which is probably resolved by now).

And here I find your thread.

So if I may share what I was thinking for you to shed more light on it ?

The fingers are bleeding, the toes are sprained, the bones are fractured, kind Guru is the heart - rightly so, since he represents Ishvar/Brahman. Who heals the fractured bones, cut fingers , etc. and this we call preaching or teaching between Guru and disciple , or removal of ignorance.

But there is more ... even while the bones are fractured, the Adi Purusha functions, walks , talks, life goes on.

This explains Raman Maharshi for instance - "There is no such thing as [bad] karma. There is nothing to be done. When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

Please let me know if there is a flaw in this ?

Thank You.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 08:10 AM
Pranam Smaram


praNAm ProudHindu

So if I may share what I was thinking for you to shed more light on it ?

I am all ears(Eyes, actually)


The fingers are bleeding, the toes are sprained, the bones are fractured, kind Guru is the heart - rightly so, since he represents Ishvar/Brahman. Who heals the fractured bones, cut fingers , etc. and this we call preaching or teaching between Guru and disciple , or removal of ignorance.

But there is more ... even while the bones are fractured, the Adi Purusha functions, walks , talks, life goes on.

That is a good one.


This explains Raman Maharshi for instance -

Hmm,Let us see.


"There is no such thing as [bad] karma.

Is that so?.That is quite mind boggling.If that is true may be i should think about that offer of my beautiful neighbor.



There is nothing to be done.

Sure, nothing to be done; especially when you have an army of
servants/disciples cooking, washing and doing chores for you.


When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

Yes, i sometimes laughed at myself for trying to meet my deadlines and silly stuff like taking my mother to hospital and worrying abt her health etc etc.

Perhaps Ramana maharishi was laughing at his disciples who were doing some real chores for him in this unreal(mithya) world.

smaranam
04 March 2010, 08:25 AM
praNAm

I would like to resolve this by teaming up with you and learning in the process.

I wrote this elsewhere regarding Raman Maharshi's words :


This explains Raman Maharshi for instance - "There is no such thing as karma. There is nothing to be done. When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

We notice he says "When you wake up" implying "when the injuries are healed" i.e. "when the ignorance is removed" (By the heart-like-Guru-Dev).

Brahman instructs Brahman, Brahman listens to Brahman ?

So when the bones/injuries (jiva-ignorance) are healed is most important I think.



Sure, nothing to be done; especially when you have an army of
servants/disciples cooking, washing and doing chores for you.

The fingers automatically submit, comply and co-operate. They do not have their own whim , especially while on the path of shedding ignorance. When the stomach is hungry, fingers don't go on strike.



Yes i sometimes laughed at myself for trying to meet my deadlines and silly stuff like taking my mother to hospital and worrying abt her health etc etc.

Taking mother to the hospital is part of the healing and sva-dharma, a.k.a. akarma. Brahman-finger takes Brahman-hand to the Hospital. The roles are reversed now. At first "she-Brahman" led "you-Brahman" by the finger.


Perhaps Ramana maharishi was laughing at his disciples who were doing some real chores for him in this unreal(mithya) world.

No, he was proud of them , or pleased with them, as they are not the doers.
Again , Guru-seva = sva-dharma = akarma (inaction that Krshna mentions inthe Gita) .

Does not mean it (akarma) is not happening, just that once ignorance is shed, i-the-jiva am not the doer. I do not feel the burden of action. Prakrti is the appearant doer. I am ultimately Brahman.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 08:52 AM
Pranaam Smaranam,

Let us do it slowly.




So when the bones/injuries (jiva-ignorance) are healed is most important I think.

Sure, that is why we have scriptures and Gurus(including our parents) to remove our ignorance.

How this is relevant to the discussion at hand?.

As per Kevala advaita Jiva is Brahman.So, the question i am asking who is removing whose ignorance?.

to my post


Perhaps Ramana maharishi was laughing at his disciples who were doing some real chores for him in this unreal(mithya) world.

You wrote


No, he was proud of them , or pleased with them, as they are not the doers.

Proud of them?.For what?.For serving him?.For Brahman serving brahman?.

Shouldn't the disciples be focusing on their Self to realize the (Advaitan) self instead of doing chores for Ramana maharishi?.


they are not the doers

So, why not tell them(the disciples) to go mind their Self instead of Doing tasks for himself?.

For a change why not Ramana maharishi do the chores himself and prove that He(Ramana maharshi) is not the doer.To prove that the bones and tendons that get injured are due to ignorance and that the pain he experience is Plain Unreal.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 09:55 AM
Pranaam smaranam,

did ramana maharshi really say this


This explains Raman Maharshi for instance - "There is no such thing as [bad] karma. There is nothing to be done. When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?.

If there is no Good karma or Bad karma then there is no basis for reincarnation.

grames
04 March 2010, 09:57 AM
For Brahman serving brahman?.

Two Brahmans??? or just one Brahman?

kd gupta
04 March 2010, 10:20 AM
Two Brahmans??? or just one Brahman?
[/size][/font][/color]
No , single Brahman with two hands , serving with one and eating with other , similarly as single Brahman singing bhajan with mouth and hearing with ears .
Eko Brahma dwatiyo nasti....easy funda to understand .

smaranam
04 March 2010, 10:59 AM
>>> It is the mercy of the heart-Guru to allow the bone/finger-disciple to serve him. This golden opportunity is in itself the process of removal of ignorance in the bone-disciple that wrongly thinks "i am the doer", and has durguna (bad qualities) like pride, arrogance attached to him/her.
Serving the heart-Guru brings servitude and selflessness, a virtue, which in turn dislocates the link of 'I' with the body. nAham deham.

>>> If the Maharshi-heart lived in his own cave, and did his own chores, the bone-disciples will not get healed. Mercy of the guru.

>>> Raman Maharshi :

http://www.atmapress.com/Download/PD..._Teachings.pdf
"..... A day will dawn when you will laugh at all your efforts. What is there to realize? The real is always as it is. You have realized the unreal, in other words, you regard the unreal as that which is real. Give up this attitude and you will attain wisdom. There is nothing new nor anything you do not already have which needs to be gained...."

>>>However, "when you wake up you will laugh" is in the context of a self realized state.
It applies only and only to the Jivanmukta.
After he/she/IT wakes up.
And identifies with Brahman-the-Universe-Purusha-Whole.
Does not mean compassion goes out of the window, on the contrary, compassion becomes breathing.


>>>"There is no Karma" Quote must have come from other Advaita Gurus (Nisargadatta Maharaj ?) ,
Sorry about that , but this is how it is viewed :
Re-incarnation does exist. However, not from the context of the Jivanmukta or Videhamukta , or Brahman.
Brahman is the sakshi (witness - subject) and sAkshyam (all that is witnessed - object). This that come and go - like rebirth of jivas are just inherent natural phenomena that are Brahman's Natural State of Being.

>>> However, the Jivanmukta , as sent by Ishvar/Brahman Himself, gives mercy to the baddha-jivas i.e. the fractured bones.

This is how Brahman instructs Brahman, and when Brahman listens , Brahman learns. Its all for Brahman's own good. Recycling is an inherent phenomenon , part of Brahman's 'nature' or svabhAv.


He NAth NArAyana VAsudeva

smaranam
04 March 2010, 12:05 PM
Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?.

If there is no Good karma or Bad karma then there is no basis for reincarnation.

praNAm

There is no karma applies only to the liberated, who identify not with the body (kArana sharira) but with Brahman in the true sense, or to Brahman alone.

For those not familiar with types of karma :

REF : Acharya Dr. Sadanandaji's discourse on "Reincarnation" : 2nd in the list.
http://advaitaforum.org/introduction-to-vendanta/discourses-by-dr-sadananad/

...Hence what birth I take next depends on the most powerful vasana-s that are ready to germinate next. There is my ‘total bank account’ of karma (saMchita karma), of which I brought into this life only those that can be exhausted (prArabdha karma) and, if in the process I make new ones (AgAmin karma), which cannot be exhausted in this life, these are deposited to my account. Until all vasanas get neutralized, I will continue taking births in one form or the other. ...




Sanchit karma = total database of karmic debt, which can be carried over to places.

AgAmi karma = karma that one can potentially sow now. Like the quiver has arrows, do not pull one out. If you shoot, you are adding to the debt.

prArabdha karma : Karma that is ripe and can only get burnt now while in this body.

For the Jeevanmukta , sanchit and AgAmi are burnt, only prArbdha karma remains : It cannot be transferred or postponed. So, the quiver is empty.
Only have to face the consequence of the arrows already shot long ago, and are ripened.

PrArabdha has to be lived out. But by whom ? Not the Jeevanmukta who has realized the 'I' (Brahman), but prArabdha merely belongs to and applies to the jiva-body.

It is compared to a broken wheel of a bicycle, set in rolling motion to eventually wobble wobble and fall. This is how the Jeevanmukta's body works. Days left in the body are only as much as needed to exhaust prArabdha

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 12:28 PM
>>> It is the mercy of the heart-Guru to allow the bone/finger-disciple to serve him.

Of course that is understandable from the dvaita or the natural perspective of Jivas looking for mercy from the supreme.Because i, as a jiva need mercy of somebody higher than me.If I am nothing but Brahman whose mercy i need?.



This golden opportunity is in itself the process of removal of ignorance in the bone-disciple that wrongly thinks "i am the doer", and has durguna (bad qualities) like pride, arrogance attached to him/her.
Serving the heart-Guru brings servitude and selflessness, a virtue, which in turn dislocates the link of 'I' with the body. nAham deham.


Is Brahman covered with Ignorance?.



If the Maharshi-heart lived in his own cave, and did his own chores, the bone-disciples will not get healed. Mercy of the guru.

It gets back to the same point.Mercy of Brahman on brahman.




Re-incarnation does exist. However, not from the context of the Jivanmukta or Videhamukta , or Brahman.

But i am Brahman is it not.Isnt it odd that Brahman(i.e. me) seeking Mukti.



Brahman is the sakshi (witness - subject) and sAkshyam (all that is witnessed - object). This that come and go - like rebirth of jivas are just inherent natural phenomena that are Brahman's Natural State of Being.

Who said that?.Brahman is supreme as per shruti.Equating Jivas with Brahman is not allowed in shruti.


However, the Jivanmukta , as sent by Ishvar/Brahman Himself,

SENT by Brahman.read your own words.

smaranam
04 March 2010, 12:42 PM
praNAm ProudHindu

Please read Acharya Dr. Sadanandaji's discourse on Reincarnation - 2nd in the list:
http://advaitaforum.org/introduction-to-vendanta/discourses-by-dr-sadananad/

which in a better way answers most or all of your responses, and perhaps this thread.
>>>Who / what is in ignorance,
>>>what needs healing,
>>>how does the healing take place,
..... as long as it is read as a sincere attempt to see what acharyaji has to say.

OK, Jeevanmukta is sent by Ishvara (on the vyAvahAric platform , this is only for comprehension of the embodied mind/intellect)

"Is Brahman covered by ignorance ?"
No because it is BRahman.
Jiva is covered,
the mind-intellect pool is at some places (latitude-longitude ?) covered by ignorance. This ignorance is local - to whom / what ? Local to the jiva-centre point , reference point.
However, these jiva-points are a part of Brahman.

This is what the fractured bones are about. The bones are not independant , but faulty intellect makes them think they are.

This is about local points of Brahman realizing that they are not what is perceived as matter. Its all energy, which is all Prakrti (MAyA).

More than this requires the entire VedAnta Darshan, for which I am not in the least qualified to comment.
I only wanted to share that anology.



Jai Gurudev
Jai Shri Krshna

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 12:55 PM
Pranaam,


praNAm

There is no karma applies only to the liberated, who identify not with the body (kArana sharira) but with Brahman in the true sense, or to Brahman alone.

Liberated Jiva,yes.



PrArabdha has to be lived out. But by whom ? Not the Jeevanmukta who has realized the 'I' (Brahman), but prArabdha merely belongs to and applies to the jiva-body.

So there two types of Brahman?.Jivan mukta brahman and mere Jiva brahman.

Is there any limit to which Brahman can be degraded??.

Perhaps you should read Ramana maharshis translation of viveka chudamani in which he says

Prarabdha karma is illusory.This is in agreement with his Hypothesis That the world is illusory.

smaranam
04 March 2010, 01:18 PM
Prarabdha karma is illusory.This is in agreement with his Hypothesis That the world is illusory.[/SIZE]

Yes, I do understand that prArabdha is illusory. But then what other language can one use to explain "Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?"

So explanation has to be on 2 levels,
one , where "what the illusion is" understood and agreed upon.
two , where it is not agreed upon OR when the mind-intellect of ignorant jiva is being addressed, which is not yet an illusion from the point of view of that mind .
In other words , the illusory jiva entangled in mAyA thinking it is the (non-existent) mind instead of Brahman.

Again, what I said in post #13 holds - that I only wanted to share the anology, I am not qualified to say anything more.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 01:31 PM
praNAm ProudHindu

Please read Acharya Dr. Sadanandaji's discourse :
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses...ation_sada.htm

which in a better way answers most or all of your responses, and perhaps this thread.
>>>Who / what is in ignorance,
>>>what needs healing,
>>>how does the healing take place,
..... as long as it is read as a sincere attempt to see what acharyaji has to say.

the link doesnt work.Pls correct it.


OK, Jeevanmukta is sent by Ishvara (on the vyAvahAric platform , this is only for comprehension of the embodied mind/intellect)

If you stick with the original work of Shankaracharya we will be saving lot of time.


"Is Brahman covered by ignorance ?"
No because it is BRahman.
Jiva is covered,

Then the saying that only brahman exists must be false.

There is the Jiva that exists and is covered by Maya, is the traditional understanding.



This is what the fractured bones are about. The bones are not independant , but faulty intellect makes them think they are.

Now, that is faulty example like the many flouted by careless advaitans.Bones are indeed independent.One controls the bones by the attached tendons.Bones cannot be controlled by Mind .



This is about local points of Brahman realizing that they are not what is perceived as matter. Its all energy, which is all Prakrti (MAyA).

Maya is not prakriti.Prakriti is real until shankaracharya's doctrine.


Jai Gurudev
Jai Shri Krshna

Perhaps you should read Gita to learn that Prakriti is real :) .

smaranam
04 March 2010, 01:55 PM
Namaste

I have updated the links.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 03:03 PM
Namaste

I have updated the links.

Thanks.

It is painful reading that link.The real life examples some of these advaitans quote reflects upon on their own intelligence.

reading these articles reinforces the notion that the perception could be unreal but reality cannot be denied.Wrong perception is the cause of illusion.

some excerpts from the page


Look at this way: gold, iron and copper look different if these difference as taken as real.

They not only look different they have different properties.The Jivas manipulate their real differences in properties to put them to real use.

Can you say the web and the pcs by which we are chatting are unreal?.They are unreal for an ignorant person.





All dharma and adharma operate at the transaction level only. They are as real as jiiva and Isvara. Everything is included in that One - which is real from the absolute point.

Can you make something from that underlined statement?.

He is saying Jiiva and isvara are real which runs contrary to kevala advaita.

He says


As long as I think I am a jiiva, these notions are regarded as facts and Brahman does not come into picture

Yes, i think i am Jiiva and Brahman certainly is in the picture.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 03:06 PM
Yes, I do understand that prArabdha is illusory. But then what other language can one use to explain "Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?"




So explanation has to be on 2 levels,
one , where "what the illusion is" understood and agreed upon.

And that explanation has to be based on shruti if he is not going to negate the basic hindu thought.Shankaracharya made up those 2 levels.They dont exist in shruti.That Is the whole point.


two , where it is not agreed upon OR when the mind-intellect of ignorant jiva is being addressed, which is not yet an illusion from the point of view of that mind .
In other words , the illusory jiva entangled in mAyA thinking it is the (non-existent) mind instead of Brahman.

The mind does exists.Controlling the mind is an important thing for a sadhak.This is another illusion concept of Shankaracharya.Mind is the only primary vehicle which enables us to communicate.If Mind is an illusion we wont be having this discussion at all.

smaranam
04 March 2010, 03:26 PM
Namaste

If you chop and quote my statements, I do not say anything. But now you are chopping AchAryaji's statements out of context, so I speak :

This is from the same reincarnation essay by Acharya SadAnandaji


Existence-consciousness-ananda cannot be divided. If one sees divisions they are only apparent and not real. If one takes the apparent as real, then all others factors become as real.

Jiiva (soul) itself is a notion and when that notion is taken as real - all other problems become as real as jiiva. Hence reincarnation and transmigration of soul are all real in that frame of reference.
....
I can understand as a scientist they are all one - yet I can transact in the world taking gold as different from iron and copper. Transactions are done at one level while understanding is at the ultimate level - there is no confusion if one understands correctly. I know that the sun neither rises nor sets but I can still appreciate the beauty of sunrise and sunset.

That is advaita in spite of dvaita - that is no incarnation in spite of reincarnation. Karma (action) is at the transactional level. At the absolute level I realize that I am never a kartRRi (doer). That is Advaita. Advaita in spite of dvaita.

Q: But if reincarnation is not real at the ultimate level, what happens to dharma and ethics?

A: All dharma and adharma operate at the transaction level only. They are as real as jiiva and Isvara. Everything is included in that One - which is real from the absolute point.

When we say 'I am', 'I' stands for the consciousness aspect and 'am' stands for the existence aspect. When we say ‘I am this’, there is the confusion of identification of the subject ‘I am’ with the object 'this'. That is due to error ,which is due to the ignorance of not knowing that 'I am'. Right now 'I am a jiiva' is the notional understanding while ‘I am Brahman’ is the vision of my self according to the Upanishads. That true ‘I am’ has to realized or recognized.

The body is only a vehicle or instrument required to exhaust my vAsana-s. Essentially, vAsana-s decide the type of body required - man or woman, white, brown or black skin etc. I, the jiiva, gravitate towards the environment that is conducive to my vAsana-s. Hence they are called 'kAraNa shariira' or causal body....

They here, stands for dharma and adharma.
>>>So just as I enjoy sunrise-sunset at transactional level knowing well sun does not rise, earth moves.
>>>Similarly, dharma adharma jiva karma vAsana body are all at the transactional level, I can navigate at this level even though I am Brahman.

Body-mind , as instrument , vehicle is all part of that transaction. OR for those whom this works, a dream.



-----
When we started, I thought you wanted to teach us how teacher-taught is explained by Kevala Advaita. That is why I shared what I shared and tried to participate.

If you do not follow this philosophy, then please, you are more than welcome to follow Dvaita.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 05:15 PM
Namaste

If you chop and quote my statements, I do not say anything. But now you are chopping AchAryaji's statements out of context, so I speak :

I dont see anything out of context.



When we started, I thought you wanted to teach us how teacher-taught is explained by Kevala Advaita.

I am questioning kevala advaita.I am not sure i created an illusion that i am teaching something.



Body-mind , as instrument , vehicle is all part of that transaction. OR for those whom this works, a dream.

That prakruti is an illusion directly contradicts Bhagavad gita.

13:23 He who thus knows purusa and prakrti together with the modes, though he acts in every way, he is not born again.

As per kevala advaita Krishna is telling us to know something which is an illusion.

So, take your pick.Kevala Advaita doctrine or Bhagavad gita.

proudhindu
04 March 2010, 10:01 PM
Karma and illusion: the Unreal logic of Kevala advaita

Where is the illusion here?(A advaitan d:nonadvaitan)

A followed rules and reached destination(mukthi).

D didnt follow rules and didn't reach destination.

Where is the Illusion here?.

smaranam
05 March 2010, 07:48 AM
[SIZE="3"
Where is the illusion here?(A advaitan d:nonadvaitan)

A followed rules and reached destination(mukthi).

D didnt follow rules and didn't reach destination.

Where is the Illusion here?.[/SIZE]

Precisely , where is it ?
May D continue happily. D is eventually a mukta too in D's own way.



Pick one : [Kevala] Advaita or Bhagavad Gita

Dream-jiva chose the Bhagavad Gita (or so she thought)
And Krshna chose dream-jiva , as He kept dreaming
While jiva was still figuring out what's going on, Krshna put in her hands the Gift of Advaita, all wrapped in Infinity, with a Leela Bow on top.

So, now she has
>>Bhagvad Gita
>>Advaita
>>Krshna !

Am i dreaming ? she thought....

.......
....

What's wrong Radhe, why do you look so worried ?
Lord, We ... left Prakrti behind ! ..... We forgot ?
No, My Love, Prakrti cannot go with Us, she has work to do. If She does not spread the MAyA-net MAyAJAl, Our dream will end.
Look at those - dream-jivas, dream-mountains .... how breath-taking
That white horse [shaking His Head] I [Brahman] took the dream-horse to the dream-pond but could not make him dream-drink.

That's because he is only a dream-horse KAnhA, don't be too hard on him.

[Radha looked at Him affectionately. How deeply He loved His Creation.
She did not fully understand though....]

silence .....

NAth, why can't We take Prakrti with US ?
We can't Radhe
But why not ?

[He studied Her intently for a few moments]
You miss Your sister , don't You ?
Prakrti cannot go with Us, because She is MAyA, This is My Yoga. Try to understand. Do You want Our dream to end ?
No. I understand now, completely. [In His happiness lay Hers]

amith vikram
05 March 2010, 08:14 AM
Keval advaitha interpretation of tatvamasi is that everything is Brahman.


Tatvamasi appears in Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7, in the dialogue between Uddalaka and his son Svetaketu.


If the Advaitan(kevala) interpretation that everybody is Brahman is valid then Uddalaka should have stopped there and then itself.

Who is teaching and who is being taught ?.

Is the Brahman(Uddalaka) teaching Brahman(svetaketu)?.

And why would brahman(svetaketu) listen to Brahman(Uddalaka)?.

More later.
namaste phji,
i think this has been discussed several times.
ganga and cauvery are 2 diff rivers.but when observed closely both the rivers are nothin but water.so there is only water and no ganga or cauvery.still,the water is nothin but molecules of H and O(so on upto quarks and strings),so its no more water but the fundamental matter in everythin,like that when we discriminate b/n uddalaka and shvetaketu,both are nothin but prajnana.so its that way of viewing things.

proudhindu
05 March 2010, 10:38 AM
Pranaam Amith


namaste phji,
i think this has been discussed several times.
ganga and cauvery are 2 diff rivers.but when observed closely both the rivers are nothin but water.

Not so fast. A river is a natural watercourse.You say the glass contains water. you never say river is in the glass.When u say there is river ganga you are referring to A particularwater course.


.River is so there is only water and no ganga or cauvery.
That is an incorrect perception of Reality.you call something a River when there is water flowing on Land.


still,the water is nothin but molecules of H and O(so on upto quarks and strings),so its no more water but the fundamental matter in everythin,like that when we discriminate b/n uddalaka and shvetaketu,both are nothin but prajnana.so its that way of viewing things.

That is advaitan way of viewing things which runs COMPLETELY contrary to Human logic.

matter contains basic particles(say quarks and strings until hadron collider gives contrary results) which leads to different substances.

Would you drink kerosene to quench your thirst because it contains the same basic particles of water?.

Uddalaka and shvetaketu are individuals one is being taught and another is the teacher.If one cannot make distinction b/n the two then one should not be having any discussion.

Amit and Ph are nothing but prajnana.So, what is that we are discussing?.

proudhindu
05 March 2010, 10:42 AM
Precisely , where is it ?
May D continue happily. D is eventually a mukta too in D's own way.

So, there is no difference in A and D status.Then why teach Advaita?.





Dream-jiva chose the Bhagavad Gita (or so she thought)
And Krshna chose dream-jiva , as He kept dreaming
While jiva was still figuring out what's going on, Krshna put in her hands the Gift of Advaita, all wrapped in Infinity, with a Leela Bow on top.

So, now she has
>>Bhagvad Gita
>>Advaita
>>Krshna !

Am i dreaming ? she thought....

.......
....

What's wrong Radhe, why do you look so worried ?
Lord, We ... left Prakrti behind ! ..... We forgot ?
No, My Love, Prakrti cannot go with Us, she has work to do. If She does not spread the MAyA-net MAyAJAl, Our dream will end.
Look at those - dream-jivas, dream-mountains .... how breath-taking
That white horse [shaking His Head] I [Brahman] took the dream-horse to the dream-pond but could not make him dream-drink.

That's because he is only a dream-horse KAnhA, don't be too hard on him.

[Radha looked at Him affectionately. How deeply He loved His Creation.
She did not fully understand though....]

silence .....

NAth, why can't We take Prakrti with US ?
We can't Radhe
But why not ?

[He studied Her intently for a few moments]
You miss Your sister , don't You ?
Prakrti cannot go with Us, because She is MAyA, This is My Yoga. Try to understand. Do You want Our dream to end ?
No. I understand now, completely. [In His happiness lay Hers]



I think i am dreaming.I am not reading this post.It is just an illusion.
Nuff said.

TatTvamAsi
05 March 2010, 12:19 PM
To all those who criticize Advaita, think about this for a moment:

Have you ever had a dream? If so, in that dream, you must have had "you" (the experiencer) and other "people" or "objects" and/or "landscapes" (areas you were in).

Who or what created all of that? There was an experience of being separate from the people and objects in your dream but can you say that those objects and people were NOT created by your mind? The mind-stuff created the illusion that you existed in the dream separate from other people and objects and you had various experiences. However, when you wake up, you find that that dream was merely an illusion. Such is the nature of what we call "reality" (this world) and what the wise ones call unreal (maya).

End of story.

proudhindu
05 March 2010, 01:49 PM
Pranaam TatTvamAsi :)


To all those who criticize Advaita, think about this for a moment:Have you ever had a dream? If so, in that dream, you must have had "you" (the experiencer) and other "people" or "objects" and/or "landscapes" (areas you were in).

Yes i had dreams and they mostly correlate with what you said.


Who or what created all of that? There was an experience of being separate from the people and objects in your dream but can you say that those objects and people were NOT created by your mind?

I can with certainity say that they are creations of Mind.


The mind-stuff created the illusion that you existed in the dream separate from other people and objects and you had various experiences. However, when you wake up, you find that that dream was merely an illusion.

Wrong.The dream was a reality.Dream is just that ; a dream.One says i dreamt going to such and such places.


Such is the nature of what we call "reality" (this world) and what the wise ones call unreal (maya).
.

I am typing this post on hdf forum.It is real.Tomorrow satay may delete this post and the message may no longer be available but still it is a reality.

If i didnt hit the post button but still claim to have posted that message then i am under illusion.

smaranam
05 March 2010, 04:39 PM
STMT 1 I am typing this post on hdf forum.It is real.Tomorrow satay may delete this post and the message may no longer be available but still it is a reality.

STMT 2 If i didnt hit the post button but still claim to have posted that message then i am under illusion.

Namaste

Statement ONE is clearly written by someone who does NOT identify with Brahman (which happens to be the majority of people).

"I am typing, ....but this is a reality" is a true statement for the one who is typing.

Because the one-who-is-typing is Non-Brahman, anAtmA. This anAtmA is mind, is part of (a character in) the dream. Obviously it is all real for the characters in the dream. Not for the ONE WHO is seeing the dream i.e. Brahman

Do we all agree that MahAVishnu dreamed up this world ? "He glanced over Prakrti" ?


What's wrong Radhe, why do you look so worried ?
Lord, We ... left Prakrti behind ! ..... We forgot ?
No, My Love, Prakrti cannot go with Us, she has work to do. If She does not spread the MAyA-net MAyAJAl, Our dream will end.
Look at those - dream-jivas, dream-mountains .... how breath-taking....


--------

Statement 2 shows what is PrAtibhAsic.

--------

My 2 cents : Those who

>> feel contempt, disgust, over Advaita
>> think it is demonic
>> apply the kerosene logic (someone asked an Advaita Guru "why don't you drink poison ?" not knowing they are addressing Guru's body, not Guru who is Brahman)
>> Feel teaching it is futile
>> are instructed to stay away from it by Guru (this is easiest)

should leave Advaita alone. and not look into it at all.

Advaita is not for them.

"Why teach it ?"
Only the ones who can answer this positively, appreciate the why, may answer that , and only sincere seekers of this VidyA will obtain answers to that. They need not share the answer with those who are not ready for it.

This is my humble opinion , and which is in fact what Advaita Teachers say too.

I have no intention to hurt anyone. Please forgive any mistakes this mind may have made.

praNAm

TatTvamAsi
05 March 2010, 04:47 PM
Namaste ProudHindu,

Perhaps we need to define 'real' and 'unreal' explicitly; especially in context of Hindu thought.

When we say something is real, we mean it is PERMANENT. Something that is unreal is subjective, ephemeral, and or impermanent. Hence, according to Advaita, the only reality is the immutable Brahman. This can be discussed with several analogies.

First and foremost, anything that is born or created HAS to die or cease to be. This is in complete harmony with modern science. We may have realities through various experiences in several lifetimes and this is apprently the case. However, in the long run, and I mean really long run, of things, what truly remains? Our bodies? No. Our minds? No. Then what? Those seers who have transcended this state of existence (reality) tell us that there is only one thing; Brahman. Do Dvaitists posit that our jIvAs continue to exist unchanged in the shadow of the Purusha? Do Dvaitists/VisiSTadvaitists claim the individuality of the soul still lingers after innumerable number of births? If this is the case, then what is the true purpose of spirituality? To be 'good'? That merely reduces the purpose of existence to another good vs. evil drama like the abrahamic cults.

Regarding your claim about making 'a post' etc. is pointless because one cab say these are events in the dream and although they have temporal and/or subjective reality, they are ultimately unreal due to their impermanence.

Another example could be a desk in front of you on which your computer sits. From our human (i.e. Limited) perspective, using our five senses we will always say that the desk is 'real', it exists etc. However, we know that the desk doesn't really exist; it is comprised of trillions of atoms arranged in a specific pattern that gives us the illusion of it's reality; this is of course thanks to modern science. Therefore, the crux of the matter, pun not intended, is PERSPECTIVE. Our understanding of basic things is grossly limited by our senses. Thus how can we really know the true nature of reality unless we transcend the instrument(s) through which we cognize this 'reality'? Is that too not subjective?

Namaskar.

devotee
05 March 2010, 08:16 PM
Namaste TTA, Smaranam and Amith,

I must admire your efforts in engaging in this (futile) discussion. You all must be aware that Advaita philosophy is difficult to understand & is not for everyone.

I don't say that you should not engage but be ready to feel disappointed in the end. It is good to see that at least the language is still civil.


OM

kd gupta
05 March 2010, 11:21 PM
Namaste TTA, Smaranam and Amith,

I must admire your efforts in engaging in this (futile) discussion. You all must be aware that Advaita philosophy is difficult to understand & is not for everyone.

I don't say that you should not engage but be ready to feel disappointed in the end. It is good to see that at least the language is still civil.


OM
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/load.gif
Namaste Devoteeji
You may be right , but let me too understand at least .
As quoted by TTA , the dream is not an illusion . You see Veda says that the mind comes near the body when person sleeps , so dream is not the matter of mind also everyone feels that dream occurs to the places where the person had been before .Now this is a fact that during sleep a person feels terror ,happiness etc and his body acts accordingly ,means his senses work . It has also been seen that some person start moving in dreams and they are in a semi conscious state . In unconscious state too , the senses work .
So let us try to relate Advaita in that way .

amith vikram
06 March 2010, 12:21 AM
phji,
when we study hydrocarbons,we study its nature and type of formation,which gives it an altogether diff structure and chara.obviously we dont drink kerosene when we feel thirsty coz the same matter is interlinked in a different way.
lets just say advaita is about finding out the most fundamental tattva in everythin.atma jnan is about the study of self.self is definitely the 'i',agree? so the 'i' which is pure and ever present in all states is wrongly interpreted as amith or ph.when this happens,we do karma and then bandhan..so and so...this is samsara.however,when we know 'i' is purely 'i' and not either amith or ph,there isnt any more karma or samsara.
some of my friends think jeevatma and paramatma are 2 diff atmas.but i understand that,we all have a bit of mamakara towards our acharyas and philosophies.so never mind,i guess we all agree on this atma atleast?so if we go on in the path of shama and dama and completly reduce our ahankara to 0,we shall find it,either jeevatma or atma or parmatma.

devotee
06 March 2010, 01:39 AM
Namaste Gupta Ji,



[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As quoted by TTA , the dream is not an illusion . You see Veda says that the mind comes near the body when person sleeps , so dream is not the matter of mind

Can you quote the exact reference for me to understand where from it is coming ? As far as I know, dream is created by mind alone. Dream is illusion when you see from your waking state but dream is reality within dream state. You need dream water to quench your dream thirst. So, it is completely real within that plane. Only difference is that things and experiences arising out of contact with the objects of dream have subtle existence instead of gross existence. Again the experience is directly by mind & not through senses.

OM

proudhindu
06 March 2010, 02:05 AM
Pranaam Tat,


Namaste ProudHindu,

Perhaps we need to define 'real' and 'unreal' explicitly; especially in context of Hindu thought.

When we say something is real, we mean it is PERMANENT. Something that is unreal is subjective, ephemeral, and or impermanent.

As per Hindu thought the universe is real but not permanent.

The traditional hindu thought is that something REAL need not be permanent.


Hence, according to Advaita, the only reality is the immutable Brahman.

It is not hence.It is only because of Kevala advaita this notion everything(accept Brahman) is unreal came in to being.For some reason shankara's(kevala) advaita has become the popular brand.Perhaps there is an attraction "that one can become god".You can find some ecstatic posts in hdf to that effect.


This can be discussed with several analogies.

First and foremost, anything that is born or created HAS to die or cease to be. This is in complete harmony with modern science. We may have realities through various experiences in several lifetimes and this is apprently the case. However, in the long run, and I mean really long run, of things, what truly remains? Our bodies? No. Our minds? No. Then what?

The individual souls remain. Didn't Sri krishna tell in Bhagavadgita that souls are eternal.


Those seers who have transcended this state of existence (reality) tell us that there is only one thing; Brahman.

Which seers?


Do Dvaitists posit that our jIvAs continue to exist unchanged in the shadow of the Purusha? Do Dvaitists/VisiSTadvaitists claim the individuality of the soul still lingers after innumerable number of births? If this is the case, then what is the true purpose of spirituality?

There are no dvaitists or visishtaadvaitists till the arrival of Shankaracharya who turned upside down everything and introduced Oxymorons like Jivanmukthas.Souls are permanent and they do undergo changes.That is the whole point of Karma.

Other schools came in to being to counter this.


what is the true purpose of spirituality?.True purpose is to To be 'good'? That merely reduces the purpose of existence to another good vs. evil drama like the abrahamic cults.

True purpose is to identify with The supreme not to become supreme.
Oh yes being good certainly helps up to certain stage.


Regarding your claim about making 'a post' etc. is pointless because one cab say these are events in the dream and although they have temporal and/or subjective reality, they are ultimately unreal due to their impermanence.

It is in tune with traditional hindu thought.Something not permanent is Not unreal.

Pranaam.

proudhindu
06 March 2010, 02:27 AM
phji,
when we study hydrocarbons,we study its nature and type of formation,which gives it an altogether diff structure and chara.obviously we dont drink kerosene when we feel thirsty coz the same matter is interlinked in a different way.

That is because of the discernment that world is REAL.Is it not Odd that k-advaita people use their faulty perception of reality to prove that world is Unreal?.



lets just say advaita is about finding out the most fundamental tattva in everythin.atma jnan is about the study of self.self is definitely the 'i',agree? so the 'i' which is pure and ever present in all states is wrongly interpreted as amith or ph.



That is one Path(keeping aside the details of k-advaita).K-advaita hasnt proposed it for the first time.It is already there.

There are other paths like karma yoga and Bhakthi yoga.Because the souls are different they need different paths.

The k-advaita declaration that the world is unreal closes out other valid paths.A false premise(that the world is unreal) based on a false perception.



when this happens,we do karma and then bandhan..so and so...this is samsara.however,when we know 'i' is purely 'i' and not either amith or ph,there isnt any more karma or samsara.

It is already covered in scriptures.You dont need K-advaita to learn that.

To identify the self with Brahman(the supreme) there are other ways.


some of my friends think jeevatma and paramatma are 2 diff atmas.but i understand that,we all have a bit of mamakara towards our acharyas and philosophies.so never mind,i guess we all agree on this atma atleast?so if we go on in the path of shama and dama and completly reduce our ahankara to 0,we shall find it,either jeevatma or atma or parmatma.

Take your pick.The primary objection to k-advaita as i explained above is that a false premise closes out other valid paths.

Pranaam.

kd gupta
06 March 2010, 03:59 AM
Namaste Gupta Ji,



Can you quote the exact reference for me to understand where from it is coming ? As far as I know, dream is created by mind alone. Dream is illusion when you see from your waking state but dream is reality within dream state. You need dream water to quench your dream thirst. So, it is completely real within that plane. Only difference is that things and experiences arising out of contact with the objects of dream have subtle existence instead of gross existence. Again the experience is directly by mind & not through senses.

OM

Pl see…
yajjAgrato dUramudaiti daivaM tadu suptasya tathaivaiti |
dUra~ggamaM jyotiShAM jyotirekaM tanme manaH shivasaMkalpamastu ||34.1||

Saideoji’s post , I am shiva…...........342 .

Yad jagratah duram udaiti daivam….which goes to a distance of a living entity .
Tad suptasya tathaiva iti…..and that comes near like wise of a sleeping one .

Tanme manah…….

Patients make stool , urine sweating etc [ a reality and not the illusion ] , while their mind is not realizing the situation .They also talk with themselves as if they are seeing the dreams in this stage itself , so how can be established that the mind is working in proper state ?
So dream is action of third eye:) and not of mind or mann and of course not the illusion ,I am not a doctor , so may be wrong too .

devotee
06 March 2010, 05:17 AM
Namaste Gupta ji,



Pl see…
yajjAgrato dUramudaiti daivaM tadu suptasya tathaivaiti |
dUra~ggamaM jyotiShAM jyotirekaM tanme manaH shivasaMkalpamastu ||34.1||

Saideoji’s post , I am shiva…...........342 .

Yad jagratah duram udaiti daivam….which goes to a distance of a living entity .
Tad suptasya tathaiva iti…..and that comes near like wise of a sleeping one .

Tanme manah…….


The complete verse with meaning as quoted by Saidevo ji is given below :


यज्जाग्रतो दूरमुदैति दैवं तदु सुप्तस्य तथैवैति ।
दूरङ्गमं ज्योतिषां ज्योतिरेकं तन्मे मनः शिवसंकल्पमस्तु ॥३४.१॥

yajjAgrato dUramudaiti daivaM tadu suptasya tathaivaiti |
dUra~ggamaM jyotiShAM jyotirekaM tanme manaH shivasaMkalpamastu ||34.1||

The Divine Essence that goes away,
from the waking, and likewise from the sleeping,
and that one far-travelling Light of Lights,
On-that-auspicious-will-of-Shiva-may my mind dwell.

How are you interpreting it :

"mind comes near the body when a person sleeps" ? It tells something completely different !


Patients make stool , urine sweating etc [ a reality and not the illusion ] , while their mind is not realizing the situation .They also talk with themselves as if they are seeing the dreams in this stage itself , so how can be established that the mind is working in proper state ?
So dream is action of third eye:) and not of mind or mann and of course not the illusion ,I am not a doctor , so may be wrong too .

The whole consciousness that a "person" is, doesn't behave as a single entity like "one person's mind", as we perceive. You are not aware how your heart pumps blood into the system, how your defense mechanism acts against bacteria, your healing mechanism keeps healing the body etc. etc. without your knowledge ... whether your "mind" is good or bad. (Actually, in spiritual sense, the mind is not limited to brain alone as perhaps you are assuming).

In dreams too, the dreamer, the person acting in the dream and all actors within the dream are the dreamer himself but all beings in the dream act differently without any conscious effort by "one mind" of the dreamer (who remains a mere witness) .... all the characters in the dream have completely different minds of their own ... their actions are neither decided by the dreamer nor the dreamer is aware of how they are going to behave in the dream, in advance. That is the most peculiar thing about Consciousness. It can apparently act as many though being just One. And that is how the whole creation gets manifested. You can realise this by asking who does all these things (subconsciously digesting food, breathing, healing, fighting against bacteria etc. ---- this all requires consciousness, right ? ) without your efforts and knowledge ? How one dreamer becomes many in a dream ?

You have brought a new dimension to dreams ... third eye in action ... as far as I know, the third eye is the door way to super-consciousness and not to subconsciousness. The whole world of dream is within the realm of subconsciousness of mind. You may correct me, if I am wrong.

OM

amith vikram
06 March 2010, 06:44 AM
namaste,
advaita doesnt say the world is unreal,but it says world is neither real nor unreal.apparently,advaitins dont drink kerosene for water nor do they fall from cliff,as you have imagined.anyway i have tried 2 discuss about the criticisms against advaita many times,so that i can understand advaita better.but every time we all get emotional and we end it.
however,my final point is that:atma which is pure and ever present in all 3 states is what we've got 2 realize.if you say,the world is real(ultimate realty),then i suppose there's no need 2 study about brahman.then,a jeeva has 2 perform karma and the jeeva is destined 2 eat the fruits of the karma.

saidevo
06 March 2010, 09:34 AM
namaste Smaranam and others.

May I have a few words on this topic?



Sanchit karma = total database of karmic debt, which can be carried over to places.

AgAmi karma = karma that one can potentially sow now. Like the quiver has arrows, do not pull one out. If you shoot, you are adding to the debt.

prArabdha karma : Karma that is ripe and can only get burnt now while in this body.

For the Jeevanmukta , sanchit and AgAmi are burnt, only prArbdha karma remains : It cannot be transferred or postponed. So, the quiver is empty.
Only have to face the consequence of the arrows already shot long ago, and are ripened.


Did you have this article in mind, when you wrote your above words?
Archery and the Art of Reducing Karma through Yoga
http://www.swamij.com/archery-karma-yoga.htm



01. For the Jeevanmukta , sanchit and AgAmi are burnt, only prArbdha karma remains : It cannot be transferred or postponed.

02. PrArabdha has to be lived out. But by whom ? Not the Jeevanmukta who has realized the 'I' (Brahman), but prArabdha merely belongs to and applies to the jiva-body.


Are these two statements contradictio in terminis--contradiction in terms?

On the one hand you say that (even) a jIvanmukta has prArabdha karma, which can't be postponed. On the other you say that the jIvanmukta does not live it out.

This is a classic example of 'Brahman teaching Brahman'. A jIvanmukta DOES live out his prArabdha karma, has the pain of its bodily manifestations, but then he DOES NOT feel the suffering in mind. This is why Dalai Lama said, "Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional", a quote that Yajvan is fond of using time and again.

Why should 'Brahman teaching Brahman' be so queer? It is only the philosophical equivalent of a man who is a scientist teaching a man who is ordinary--notice that both are humans:

"Hey, you think you are in love and are going heady about it? Gobbledegook, I say! There is no such emotion as love; it is all just the play of the harmone Oxytocin."

Who is real here, the ordinary man, the scientist man, or both?

kd gupta
06 March 2010, 10:08 AM
Namaste Saidevoji
Very interesting observation you have raised . see this shloka of gita explains both the points…..
Swabhaavajena kaunteya nibaddhah swena karmanaa;
Kartum necchasi yanmohaat karishyasyavasho’pi tat.
O Arjuna, bound by thy SWENA [ means here Prarabddha ] Karma (action) born of thy own nature, that which from
delusion thou wishest not to do, even that thou shalt do helplessly!
Thou wilt be forced to fight because of thy nature. It will compel thee to
fight, much against thy will.

Actually gita is practical explanation of Vedas where as Upanishadas are Vedas in itself therefore detailing of :I: is hidden in gita but IS there .

smaranam
06 March 2010, 03:25 PM
praNAm SaidevoJi


Did you have this article in mind, when you wrote your above words?
Archery and the Art of Reducing Karma through Yoga
http://www.swamij.com/archery-karma-yoga.htm


No. Thank You for that link. The Swamiji has put it so well.

Saidevoji and Guptaji ,
Those were some very good connections, about PrArabdha and Brahman teaching Brahman. And Arjuna being compelled to fight - past karma, Kshatriya nature.

I learnt about the karma types and quiver full of arrows from my Advaita Teacher - thru' his articles and also sort of "in person". Pretty neat.

-----------------

In fact , this was the main part of how it went... (if I may share it here for the benefit of other readers ? Next Post .... )

smaranam
06 March 2010, 03:36 PM
Namaste

Some conversation with Guruji , relating to prArabdha, since the topic has come up.

me: If vAsanA have to be erradicated, the living mind may have automatically transcended them if the intellect has understood the identity and has fully realized the Self/Brahman ? I suppose it is a matter of experience then.
{here by identity , we mean "Tat Tvam asi" , subject = object ID }

Dr. Sadananda: It is knowledge than experience per sec. It is knowledge that there is nothing more to know or do. I understand that I was never a doer but actions are being done in my presence. Hence Krishna says - prakRityevaca karmaaNi kriyamaaNaani sarvasaH - All actions are done by prakRiti only - this is true whether I am a jnaani or ajnaani - jnaani will know this so he sees the actions that are being performed by BMI but he never takes himself as responsible for the actions since he was never a doer.

The sanchita and aagami will not belong to him - with jnaana the connection to him gone. Only prarabda is left - that belongs to prakRiti now part of BMI. Hence body, mind and intellect will go through their destined prarabda. Jnaani sees the so-called BMI is undergoing its prarabda but he himself is unaffected since it does not belong to him. He sees as His own glory or modestly he may say it is all the glory of the Lord. Everything becomes HIS vibhuuti. That is the understanding or jnaana not experience since experience comes and goes - knowledge stays.

me: That perfectly answers my qn !
So if I am understanding this correctly -
that is what prArabdha for the JivanMukta is. He may say, the body is hungry, and if there are laddoos on the countertop, its OK for the BMI to take the decision to eat one. That was not me, let BMI do what it takes, or wants to do ?

Dr. SadAnanda : Yes BMI has praarabda like an arrow that was shot they have to go through what ever that was destined.
This is true for everyone.
Jnaani understood that he is not BMI but that existence consciousness that lends both existence as well as consciousness to BMI.
Hence he can as Saakshii watch the BMI sufferings as well as enjoyments. It is like watching movie on the screen - both tragedies and comedies we watch and say the movie was very good. Even the suffering we can watch only because it is a movie and not real.
Jnaani understood that BMI is not real but only apparent. Hence all modifications are only apparent and not real. It becomes beautiful creation to watch. Hence it is called LEELA. It is understood as LEELA only if I can stand apart and watch without getting involved.
Hence Jnaani does not have praarabda but he sees the play of praarabda of the BMI and through the BMI the world.

--------------------

More to follow....

smaranam
06 March 2010, 03:41 PM
Namaste

Some musing - just putting what everyone here has said (and many times in the past) , in my own words.
It helps me to put things in my own words :)

Perhaps one major point missed is

WHO IS THIS 'I'

The one who says "but this is real" , is right in their frame of ref.
because they are being a character in Brahman's dream ! That is all that needs to be understood.

Except for those refuting for the sake of others (Like Chaitanya MahaPrabhu, saying its bad for society's health in general , and perhaps Proud Hindu too :) )
the seeker-Advaita-refuter , is NOT practicing "Aham Brahmasmi", but only being a dream-jIva in Ishwar's dream, basically anAtmA , non-Brahman, forgive me!

THE biggest error here is thinking it is seeker1's dream or seeker2's dream. It is neither. IT IS ISHWAR's DREAM.
(The rope in the rope-snake , is Ishwar's creation , VyAvahAric. The snake is jIva's creation , prAtibhAsic.
When jIva identifies with AtmA , it comes out of this. )

Until and unless "Aham BrahmAsmi" , "Tat Tvam asi" seeps in
which is the whole point of Jnana marga sAdhanA ,
the dream-jIva is SWIMMING IN THE DREAM, thinking it is real-but-impermanent.

Is there recursion involved ?
My favourite professor in first yr of college , said to us one day "Read Alice in Wonderland carefully , you will understand recursion". Wierd ?

Some use chemistry and quantum mechanics to explain Jagat, how about algorithmic concepts like recursion ?

praNAm

smaranam
06 March 2010, 08:32 PM
Namaste

QUOTE Guptaji : So dream is action of third eye and not of mind or mann and of course not the illusion ,I am not a doctor , so may be wrong too .

QUOTE Devoteeji : as far as I know, the third eye is the door way to super-consciousness and not to subconsciousness. The whole world of dream is within the realm of subconsciousness of mind.



As far as I know, dreams - the REM sleep conventional dreams , are "given by the Lord to burn out / compensate for insignificant karma." So if its a nightmare, its a kArmic reaction (bad). If its Lord or a Guru giving darshan, its also a kArmic reaction (good).

Of Course , this I do not think includes mystical things "seen" or "shown" while awake. THAT seems like Third Eye. To me its just Lord working on individual.

So , whether sub-conscious (lower self) or SuperConscious (Higher Self),
it is an experience given by the Lord. This is how it is for me.
I think its just a matter of level of relative reality. 'Realer than' or not. How seriously to take it.

Dreams as well as waking-dreams/sights/insights can be helpful to an individual. We have a whole set of 'guiding dreams'.

So Guptaji does have a point. Ultimately, it is Consciousness at work only.

At the Absolute level, its all for a purpose till the individual is Self Realized,
and Swami ShivAnanda writes that such people have no dreams. Its all pure consciousness. Because there are no vAsanAs left, no imaginations, no mission, no goals to achieve. This is the sAkshi - witness. Appearantly there is no outer entity that gives an involuntary experience.

kd gupta
07 March 2010, 01:54 AM
Namaste everybody
Now it has become a good thread discussing all factors like I ,YOU , BRAHMAN ,DREAM , ULTIMATE TRUTH , IGNORANCE , DELUSION and ADVAITA .
No doubt , Advaita is ultimate truth . Now see , today I was reading…This too shall pass , a heading by some foreigner , but I don’t think it is as good as Advaita , which says …Yeh bhi na rahega…This also will perish .
Krsn asks to Arjun…
Kacchid ajnaanasammohah pranashtaste dhananjaya.
Has the DELUSION of thy
ignorance been fully destroyed, O Dhananjaya?
So here it is understood that delusion is more harmful compared to ignorance .
Or in other words in the same trend we find that something is more important than gyan .Accordingly ,also many times we feel awake and know that , oh I was dreaming , while that remains another dream , so it is dream under dream .
Now Krsn tells about the factor which is more important than gyan…
Jyotishaamapi tajjyotistamasah paramuchyate;
That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge.
Madbhakta
O , my devotee…..and that is what I mean , the Devotion :) .