PDA

View Full Version : Help needed... Regarding caste system.



anupj
10 March 2010, 10:31 AM
Hello Friends,
I am planning to write an article for my college magazine on the current tradition of caste system, i.e. the way it is followed in India. People here judge the caste of a person based on his last name(surname), and the caste written on his birth certificate or school leaving certificate. I want to create awareness in people that one is not from some varna only because he was born to parents of a particular varna. I have some ideas on how to write that article.
But i am here to ask you all how do you find this idea to be. Any suggestions you can make on this. or any verses from scriptures in support of this. i would be very happy to know them

regards
anup

Eastern Mind
20 March 2010, 07:51 AM
Anupj: Welcome to the forums if I haven't welcomed you already.

If it were me doing the project, I would firstly recognise that there are many points of view, so I would go out and interview as many people as time would permit, selecting from different castes. I would have a list of questions prepared: more specific than what you wrote.

From my personal limited experience here in the west, caste is slowly disappearing, as is race. This is because of intermingling. But it may take another 100 years or so.

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
20 March 2010, 11:25 AM
Hi Anupj.

I think our Scriptures are clear that varna is not based on birth, but on vocation. As you say, right now people judge varna on the basis of one's family name, and this sort of thing should not be happening.

I'm aware that some people do hold to this birth-based idea of caste. Being Brahmin myself, all of the people I know who hold this view are Brahmins (makes sense that the people in power should want to hold onto that power). But I'd be interested to know what other people believe about this view of caste.

Eastern Mind
20 March 2010, 01:27 PM
Sanjaya:

Thanks for continuing the topic. I am quite interested to see what is happening today. I could care less about the past. Now is now, and the now determines our future. I don't care so much about scripture. What is the common sense that is needed today?

I do not believe in caste per say. That is ... not by birth. I do realise we have class here in the west, and it is similar. I also beleive that some people are better suited to certain jobs. This is how I like the priests of temples to be Brahmins, not because they are born Brahmins, but because they have maintained a certain lifestyle of purity that warrants that. Our non-temple Brahmins here take themselves out of the possibility of entering the sanctum, yet for certain rituals like homas on festival days, they too are there to help out.

I believe we owe it to ourselves to hang out with spiritual like-minded people. I don't have many friends that are criminals, and if someone behaves in a certain way such as talking lewdly, I will avoid their company socially.

We also have a lot of talk the talk but not walk the walk. An example is someone who claims to not believe in caste, yet has a servant in their house who is treated poorly, and paid a pitiful wage. It is one thing to make arrogant claims, and yet another to practice it.

When a Brahmin commits adultery, gambles, or becomes a slum landlord, I believe that automatically has them lose their caste under the eyes of a karmic manifesting God. Similarly, if a person born to or who has become a criminal or drug addict behaves in a better dharmic way over a longer period of time, they would go up in caste under the watchful eyes loving of He who has one tusk.

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
20 March 2010, 04:25 PM
Pranam




I think our Scriptures are clear that varna is not based on birth, but on vocation. As you say, right now people judge varna on the basis of one's family name, and this sort of thing should not be happening.

I'm aware that some people do hold to this birth-based idea of caste. Being Brahmin myself, all of the people I know who hold this view are Brahmins (makes sense that the people in power should want to hold onto that power). But I'd be interested to know what other people believe about this view of caste.

Why do you think if the scripture are clear on varna that there is so much confusion?

Analyse your own statement, on what basis did you consider yourself Brahmin?

What power are you talking about?

Today a Brahmin is scorned upon simply because he is born a Brahmin by his previous punya. In fact as it stands in India a Brahmin is at the most disadvantage even if he is poor because he has lost his livelihood doing his Brahmin duty, he has no chance getting a job because of government reservation scheme.
This is what Tulsidas thought would happen in this age of Kali and I quote
Selected texts from Sri Ramacharitamanasa
of Sant Tulasidas, Uttar-kanda, verses 96-103
The Tulasi Ramayana Kakbhushundi said: while I describe a few peculiarities of Kali-Yuga.

----No one follows the duties of one's own caste, and the four Ashrams or stages of life also disappear. Every man and woman takes delight in revolting against the Vedas. The Brahmans sell the Vedas; the kings bleed their subjects; no one respects the injunctions of the Vedas. The right course for every individual is that which one takes a fancy to; a man of erudition is he who plays the braggart.

---Dominated by women, all men dance to their tune like a monkey controlled by its trainer. Sudras instruct the twice-born (Brahman, Kshatriya and Vaishya) in spiritual wisdom and wearing the sacred thread, accept the worst type of gifts.---

The age of Kali is a store house of impurities and vices but it has many virtues too. Final emancipation is possible in the Kali age without any exertion. Moreover, the same goal which is reached through worship of God, performance of sacrifices or the practice of Yoga in the Satyayuga and in the Treta and Dwapara yuga, men are able to attain through the name of Sri Hari in the Kali age. No other age can compare with the Kali age provided a man has faith (in its virtue); for in this age one can easily cross the ocean of transmigration simply by singing Sri Ram's holy praises.


So yes EM lets do away with varna, I am all for it, unfortunately the problem do not go away because as you observed another type of hierarchy would take its place.

I only discuss from the viewpoint of how it was, but I know that has long gone if not destroyed completely. Still in India people hang on to their tradition, as we say in Guajarati the snakes are gone but left it trails behind.

Jai Shree Krishna
 
 

Eastern Mind
20 March 2010, 05:46 PM
So yes EM lets do away with varna, I am all for it, unfortunately the problem do not go away because as you observed another type of hierarchy would take its place.
 
 

We can only control ourselves, and no one else. Hierarchy will exist in the Kali Yuga. I have learned to be very careful what I say, who I trust, how I act, etc. Experience is a tough teacher.

My friends (not all, a generalisation) almost entirely non-Brahmin, I observe to be the worst. Fortunately there are two ways to learn from the opportunities we are given each day to observe human behaviour: How to behave, and how not to behave.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
21 March 2010, 12:51 AM
Why do you think if the scripture are clear on varna that there is so much confusion?

I admit to being not the most Scripturally-knowledgable person around. But I've never actually read a text which says that varna is based on birth. It seems to be an assumption that everyone just carries around. As to the confusion, I don't know that there's very much confusion at all. Most other Hindus I talk to will admit that varna is not inherited. But their deeds betray their words.


Analyse your own statement, on what basis did you consider yourself Brahmin?

Forgive my lack of clarity. For some time now, a culture has developed among Indians where people identify with a caste based on birth. For me this caste is Brahmin. But for all intents and purposes I am not a Brahmin. I am not a priest. I don't even know how to perform all but the most simple rituals. Indeed, my job has nothing to do with religion at all (where would scientists fall in the varna system, anyway?).


What power are you talking about?

Today a Brahmin is scorned upon simply because he is born a Brahmin by his previous punya. In fact as it stands in India a Brahmin is at the most disadvantage even if he is poor because he has lost his livelihood doing his Brahmin duty, he has no chance getting a job because of government reservation scheme.

You're right, I'll actually concede this point. The Indian version of affirmative action has gone off the deep end. It is not merit-based, but actually favors the non-Brahmin castes. This too shouldn't happen. That said, I think I do have a point. Most Brahmins I know will say in public that varna is not inherited, but in private consider themselves superior to non-Brahmins. I'm not trying to generalize. Maybe I just know the wrong Brahmins. I'm only conveying my personal experience.

rkpande
21 March 2010, 04:32 AM
It is said that you are what your genes are. Parents only pass on the genetic material which they received as a gene pool of their family from their parents.
Our masters of yore had perhaps this knowledge of genetics and knew that to admit a child of a shudra to their gurukul would be like teaching nuclear science to a child. His mental capability were not advanced enough, though after couple of incarnations , he might find himself in a family of twice born.
Though epigenetically one may silence few genes here and there and switch on a few. Like Ekalaya or Valyamiki and then the system excepted them as to what they were or their thumb was taken away. Degradation of the idea of verna system over a period of time is of no surprise.

Eastern Mind
21 March 2010, 07:43 AM
Vannakkam: Just some more thoughts/info.

U.K. Moves To Outlaw Caste Discrimination Among Resident Asians (http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/xpress/hindu-press-international/2010/03/20/uk-moves-to-outlaw-caste-discrimination-among-resident-asians/)

March 20th, 2010 Source: www.hindustantimes.com (http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/europe/UK-moves-to-ban-caste-discrimination/Article1-514985.aspx)
LONDON, UNITED KINGDOM, March 4, 2010: In a move termed as ‘historic’, British lawmakers are in the process of amending equality laws to make caste-based discrimination illegal, following mounting evidence of the practice within the Asian community here.

After refusing to amend the laws for some years on the ground that there was no evidence of such practice, Britain has now accepted that discrimination on grounds of caste may be happening.

Baroness Thornton, a government peer in the House of Lords, said such evidence may exist and has commissioned the National Institute of Economic and Social Research to conduct research into the subject and present its report by August.

Based on the evidence and research present in the report, the government is expected to amend equality laws and initiate measures to prevent caste-based discrimination in the same way as discrimination on grounds of sex, color, religion, age or sexual orientation.


I'm not sure how easily it'll be enforced.

Aum namasivaya

sambya
21 March 2010, 01:18 PM
actually there is evidences of caste being determined both by birth and qualities . we had a detailed debate on this issue in another forum on hindu religion on internet . but one thing is certain . that in its initial days caste system was not as rigid as it later became . people could opt for a different caste .

personally i believe in both such systems . i would always respect a person born into a brahmin caste . but that would not make me disrespect other 'lower' castes either . and if i see someone from 'lower' castes having the qualities of a true brahmin i have no problem in accepting his superiority over others . he becomes as good as any brahmin by birth . by same methods i would keep away from a person who , despite being born into brahmin castes takes to unholy practices .

sanjaya
21 March 2010, 01:29 PM
I'm not sure how easily it'll be enforced.

It will be made especially difficult because of the fact that free societies necessarily have to tolerate intolerance. For example, here in the United States, we have legally protected classes (e.g. race, religion, culture, etc.), and discrimination against these classes is illegal. However, such legislation does not prohibit racist groups like the KKK from existing, because they also have a Constitutional right to peacefully assemble and speak freely. In fact, in the past the ACLU (which consists largely of Jews) has defended the rights of racist groups in the courts. In order to be a tolerant society, we have to allow racist people to do as they please.

My guess (assuming the UK is anything like the US) is that if these UK laws are passed, they will prohibit people in the government, as well as employers, from discriminating against the lower castes. But they may not prevent temples from barring entry to lower caste Hindus.


It is said that you are what your genes are. Parents only pass on the genetic material which they received as a gene pool of their family from their parents.
Our masters of yore had perhaps this knowledge of genetics and knew that to admit a child of a shudra to their gurukul would be like teaching nuclear science to a child. His mental capability were not advanced enough, though after couple of incarnations , he might find himself in a family of twice born.

Rkpande, I know that this isn't your intent, but the above thinking was used here in the United States to justify black slavery. In fact, the Confederate General Robert E. Lee once said the following concerning African Americans:

In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
Does this not sound similar to the idea that the lower castes are not yet fit to learn the more advanced teachings of Hindu religion?

TatTvamAsi
24 March 2010, 03:34 PM
Hi Anupj.

I think our Scriptures are clear that varna is not based on birth, but on vocation. As you say, right now people judge varna on the basis of one's family name, and this sort of thing should not be happening.

I'm aware that some people do hold to this birth-based idea of caste. Being Brahmin myself, all of the people I know who hold this view are Brahmins (makes sense that the people in power should want to hold onto that power). But I'd be interested to know what other people believe about this view of caste.

Your post is fraught with erroneous claims and assumptions.

That which is based on vocation is jAtI. That which is based on ancestry/lineage is varnA.

You should really read more about it. Caste has been beaten to death here on HDF.

Secondly, since when were Brahmins "in power"? Kings, vassals, and other nobles were almost always Kshatriya; it was needed to effectively rule. There have been exceptions of course.

Even in the modern day, Brahmins were never in power. Most Brahmins are suffering in India and many have flocked elsewhere in search of better fortunes.

It is highly puerile to keep harping that Varna is not based on birth. It is absolutely based on lineage/ancestry which is a result of one's guna/karma in previous lifetimes.

How can you not grasp such a simple flow of logic? And you claim to be a scientist? lolol....

And to answer your question about scientists, scientists, or enquirers of TRUTH, were always Brahmins in India. In the modern sense of course, where so-called scientific enquiry is limited to the phenomenal universe, does not encapsulate real enquiry into the nature of reality as the latter is based on self-enquiry. Hence you have all sorts of mlecchas who are self-proclaimed "scientists" and promulgators of "truth".

anupj
25 March 2010, 01:18 PM
hello friends,
thank you for your helpful posts, could anyone provide me with some verses of our scriptures which support our argument. i could make good use of those. one of the verses which i can use as a support is from the Gita, it is in 18th chapter, and verse no. is somewhere in the 40s. In it Lord Krishna says that one belongs to some varna based on his nature only. And i believe that one can change his nature by time hence varna may also change.

i agree with sambya a bit, because, basically i also dont make judgements about anyone based on his family name. I have actually found some people belonging to the so called "shudra caste" but having very insightful thoughts about the world, while some people belonging to the "brahmin caste" but being very selfish, materiallistic and some even having atheistic views.

regards

anup