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ScottMalaysia
20 March 2010, 06:15 AM
From conversations that I've had with ISKCON devotees, it seems that they ascribe great power and potency to the Hare Krishna mantra. From what I've heard, they believe:

The Hare Krishna Mantra is non-different from Lord Krishna (i.e. when one chants the mantra, Lord Krishna literally dances on one's tongue)
The Hare Krishna Mantra can purify anything
Anyone who even hears the Hare Krishna Mantra is assured of a human birth in their next life (not to mention actually chanting it)
Reciting the Hare Krishna Mantra cleanses one from karma
The Hare Krishna Mantra is the best mantra of all (Maha-mantra)Apart from the last point, would most non-ISKCON and non-Gaudiya Hindus agree with these points? Or would they see them as something purely belonging to Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

On the other hand, are there any sects that ascribe the potencies listed above to the mantra(s) of their own Gods? For example, would a Saivite say that "Om Namah Sivaya" is non-different from Lord Shiva and that anyone who hears it will not take an animal birth in their next life?

Eastern Mind
20 March 2010, 07:45 AM
Scott: Personally, I don't believe in this kind of black/white thinking. It reminds me too much of Christianity. So some mass murderer on his way to jail wanders by a group of Krsna devotees somewhere means he is purified or something? makes no sense to me.

For the record, not all Hindus believe in animal rebirth. I only believe it in two rare instances: severe alcoholism, and sudden tragic explosive accidents, and even those are maybes. It depends on the mature of the soul's thinking mind at the time of death. In other words extreme confusion could lead to 'picking' the wrong kind of body, but this would just be for one life.

Of course anyone can believe anything if they want to.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
20 March 2010, 10:49 AM
From conversations that I've had with ISKCON devotees, it seems that they ascribe great power and potency to the Hare Krishna mantra. From what I've heard, they believe:

The Hare Krishna Mantra is non-different from Lord Krishna (i.e. when one chants the mantra, Lord Krishna literally dances on one's tongue)
The Hare Krishna Mantra can purify anything
Anyone who even hears the Hare Krishna Mantra is assured of a human birth in their next life (not to mention actually chanting it)
Reciting the Hare Krishna Mantra cleanses one from karma
The Hare Krishna Mantra is the best mantra of all (Maha-mantra)Apart from the last point, would most non-ISKCON and non-Gaudiya Hindus agree with these points? Or would they see them as something purely belonging to Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

On the other hand, are there any sects that ascribe the potencies listed above to the mantra(s) of their own Gods? For example, would a Saivite say that "Om Namah Sivaya" is non-different from Lord Shiva and that anyone who hears it will not take an animal birth in their next life?

Dear Scott,

IMHO,

The mantras become powerful by the devotion of the devotees. Your own devotion and the devotion of the other present and past devotees ... fill the mantras with the powerful vibration.

Sin Cleansing :

This theory has intrigued me for long :

Just by taking a bath in the Ganges, taking the name of Shiva or Vishnu even once, just by fasting on a particular day ... etc. etc. ... How can these simple acts cleanse the sins so easily ?

I don't think it is possible so easily. Yes, as someone explained to me once ... these acts may initiate some process to cleanse you from those sins ... not directly but indirectly ... so that finally you will be liberated.

There is nothing wrong in what ISKCONites believe. In fact, they must believe .... so that the mantra has its desired effect.

OM

sanjaya
20 March 2010, 11:19 AM
Just by taking a bath in the Ganges, taking the name of Shiva or Vishnu even once, just by fasting on a particular day ... etc. etc. ... How can these simple acts cleanse the sins so easily ?

I've always understood these rituals to mean that that God will aid you in the sin-cleansing process, but that the devotee also needs to atone for his or her sins. For example, you can't steal money, recite a few mantras, and expect to be cleansed of the sin without actually giving the money back. While Hinduism is certainly a very ritualistic religion, I think that common sense is also important. Does it make sense that a lifetime of sin can be atoned for with just a few words? Given that the system of reincarnation and karma allows a person effectively infinite time to atone for sin, why is there any need for God to forgive so much sin with so little effort on the part of the devotee?

Ganeshprasad
20 March 2010, 06:17 PM
Pranam all

Tulsidas says Ram se bada Ram ka naam meaning Higher then Bhagvan Ram is his name Ram, why? he explains because when he was around, he only liberated some around him, but his name continue to liberate millions.
Chanting mara mara made Rober in to Valmiki Sage say it all.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
20 March 2010, 06:39 PM
Pranam Devotee ji


Dear Scott,

IMHO,

The mantras become powerful by the devotion of the devotees. Your own devotion and the devotion of the other present and past devotees ... fill the mantras with the powerful vibration.

care to explain a bit more please, from what i understand is, Mantras are powerful in it self, the effect of its vibration is what we feel if we let it work on us by constant chanting it with pure heart and mind.



Sin Cleansing :

This theory has intrigued me for long :

Just by taking a bath in the Ganges, taking the name of Shiva or Vishnu even once, just by fasting on a particular day ... etc. etc. ... How can these simple acts cleanse the sins so easily ?

Yes bathing in Ganga, why not she is Pavan and we are patit. Bhagirath performed Tapsya to bring her to earth so that Sagarputra be liberated why should we doubt her potency?
Ajamil was saved simply calling his son Narayan, i have this faith, if cry our parents run to our help, why should Father of all, not respond if we cry out his name sincerely?



I don't think it is possible so easily. Yes, as someone explained to me once ... these acts may initiate some process to cleanse you from those sins ... not directly but indirectly ... so that finally you will be liberated.
OM

Nothing is easy but you have answered the question, the process is set in motion, the very act of desiring to go on pilgrimage sets in motion the good karma, i have known many people coming back from yatra given up some bad habits. these are all positive karma.
Jai Shree Krishna

devotee
20 March 2010, 10:51 PM
Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,



care to explain a bit more please, from what i understand is, Mantras are powerful in it self, the effect of its vibration is what we feel if we let it work on us by constant chanting it with pure heart and mind.

See, the Mantras handed over to us by Rishis are powerful ... because they came through the Rishis. So, their tapas, their devotion to God & their Jnaana made the Mantras given by them powerful. So, that is ok.

However, "Hare Rama, Hare Rama ..." Mantra didn't come from those Rishis. So, will be as powerful as say the Gaayatri Mantra ? My opinion is that it depends upon who gives this mantra to us (i.e. the positive vibtration added to mantra by the Guru) and upon the devotion of the disciple (i.e. positive vibtrations added to it by the disciple) and also the positive vibrations added to this mantra by millions of devotees in the past & in present.

Saying "Maraa Maraa", Vaalimiki became Jnaani, why ? If the literal meaning of word was so important ? While saying "Maraa" Vaalimiki had Raama in mind & that was important and no the mantra which he was reciting.


Yes bathing in Ganga, why not she is Pavan and we are patit. Bhagirath performed Tapsya to bring her to earth so that Sagarputra be liberated why should we doubt her potency?

That is what I say ... Never Doubt. This doubt will create negative vibration and will lower its effectiveness.


Ajamil was saved simply calling his son Narayan, i have this faith, if cry our parents run to our help, why should Father of all, not respond if we cry out his name sincerely?

That story of Ajamil is to instill faith in simple minded people, otherwise, a word has no meaning except what is in the mind of the speaker or as is accepted by the listener. Why should a certain word, "Narayana" have so much power by itself ? If Hindus had Hebrew as their mother tongue, would we still call Narayana as Narayana ?

OM

Ramakrishna
22 March 2010, 06:40 PM
From my prior knowledge as well as experience, I have always felt that chanting mantras invokes God's presence. Yes, God is omnipresent and present in all living beings, but chanting mantras sort of awakens and enlivens God inside of us. So in that sense I agree with the first point in that the mantra can be seen as non-different from God.

Based on the first point, I do believe the second point is true, that the mantra can purify anything. It is a way of invoking God's presence and blessing things. For example, sometimes when I am in a hurry and I don't have time to do an elaborate offering of my food to God, I just chant the Hare Krishna mantra. In that way my food is purified and blessed.

I do not agree at all with the third point. As Eastern Mind said, it sounds like Christianity. The whole concept of having some serial killer hear the Maha Mantra and being born as a human in the next life is as ridiculous to me as a serial killer accepting Jesus Christ as his savior and being saved.

I am not sure about the fourth point. This is actually something I have been thinking about recently. While I would like to think that reciting mantras, specifically the Maha Mantra, cleanses one from karmic debt, I'm not sure if that is the way it is. Because then we can just spend our entire days just chanting the mantra and we will attain moksha. I believe that chanting mantras can improve one's karma, but it cannot completely erase one from karmic debt. In other words, chanting mantras alone cannot get one moksha.

I've heard from some places that the Hare Krishna mantra is the best mantra of all, but that was from ISKCON sources. Pretty much from every other place I've heard that the Gayatri mantra is the most powerful and greatest mantra. I view the mantras on equal footing, and I chant them both a lot.

smaranam
22 March 2010, 07:24 PM
Namste

Everyone's contribution on this thread is so nicely complimenting each other.

It is true that if one chants the mahAmantra offenselessly just once, KRshna will be in front of them.

Please note that everything rests on this one word - offenselessly.

Before going into science and art of chanting mahAmantra, we can look at the rule-regulation-doctrine-free common sense part.

KRSNa lives in our heart as ParamAtmA, as our dearmost Witness. He does not impose Himself, simply watches. If we turn to Him, depending on our extent and quality of surrender, He responds by being a Companion and Guide.

So , if we make Him ours completely, He will be our Dearmost Witness Companion & Guide.

For this our love for Him has to be spontaneous and real.

All the procedural rules are about this - as long as we can't make it spontaneous or an art, we make it a science.

What is the MahAmantra ?
"O KRSNa , O Radha, please engage me in service to You. Please have mercy and make me elligible of service to you. Please take me under your wing. How can i get rid of my vices without Your mercy and grace ? ..."

So chanting is to purify one's heart, and then after that chanting is to serve KRSNa. How ? By other service as well as more and pure chanting. Its a recursive procedure.

Its basically a way to trick the mind with the Lord's help , into avoiding bad karma , not offending others, controlling the mind from laziness, wickedness, greediness, jealousy - all 6 vices (kAm krodh lobh moha matsar)
, and serving KRSNa by serving the world (pada sevanam acc. to Swami Shivnanda)

The motivator is intimacy with Radha KRSNa.

The goal is spontaneous devotion. Everything for KRSNa. Live, eat, breathe, act, speak, work for KRSNa seeing KRSNa in all hearts.




I am not sure about the fourth point. This is actually something I have been thinking about recently. While I would like to think that reciting mantras, specifically the Maha Mantra, cleanses one from karmic debt, I'm not sure if that is the way it is. Because then we can just spend our entire days just chanting the mantra and we will attain moksha. I believe that chanting mantras can improve one's karma, but it cannot completely erase one from karmic debt. In other words, chanting mantras alone cannot get one moksha.

Perhaps the above can explain how and why. HaridAs ThAkur chanted all day. That's all he did and ever wanted to do. MahAprabhu asked him to slow down in illness and old age, but he refused to listen.

Don't you think Haridas Thakur was all set ? Liberated and had no desires, no where to go, nothing to accomplish ?
Conversely, your statement that i have underlined, if one can do it offenselessly, one is already mukta, has moksha in their pocket. Is that something we can easily do ?

Just as RamaN Maharshi says, once you wake up, you will laugh at all your struggles. But that's only when you wake up.

:)

Jai Sri KRSNa

saidevo
22 March 2010, 11:18 PM
namaste everyone.

The 'hare RAma--hare KRShNa' mantra is from the Kali-santarana UpaniShad:

01. HariH AUM! At the end of DvApara-Yuga, sage NArada went to BrahmA and addressed him thus: "Hey BhagavAn! How shall I, roaming over the earth, be able to cross Kali?"

To which BrahmA thus replied: "Well asked. Hearken to that which all Shrutis (the Vedas) keep secret and hidden, through which one may cross the SaMsAra (mundane existence) of Kali. He shakes off (the evil effects of) Kali through the mere uttering of the name of the Bhagavat NArAyaNa, who is the primeval PuruSha".

02. Again NArada asked BrahmA: “What is the name ?” To which HiraNyagarbha (BrahmA) replied thus:

hare RAma hare RAma RAma RAma hare hare |
hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare ||

iti ShoDashakaM nAmnAM kalikalpaSha nAshanam |
nAthaH parataropAyaH sarvavedeShu dRshyate ||

These sixteen names (words) are destructive of the evil effects of Kali. No better means than this is to be seen in all the Vedas.

These (sixteen names) destroy the AvaraNa (or the centripetal force which produces the sense of individuality) of JIva surrounded by the sixteen Kalas (rays). Then like the sphere of the sun which shines fully after the clouds (screening it) disperse, Parabrahman (alone) shines.

03. NArada asked again: "BhagavAn, what are the rules to be observed with reference to it?"

To which BrahmA replied that there were no rules for it.

• Whoever in a pure or an impure state, utters these always, attains the same world of, or proximity with, or the same form of, or absorption into Brahman.

• Whoever utters three and a half Crores (or thirty-five millions) times this Mantra composed of sixteen names (or words) crosses the sin of the murder of a BrAhmaNa. He becomes purified from the sin of the theft of gold. He becomes purified from the sin of cohabitation with a woman of low caste. He is purified from the sins of wrong done to Pitris, Devas and men.

• Having given up all Dharmas, he becomes freed at once from all sins. He is at once released from all bondage. That he is at once released from all bondage is the Upanishad.

**********

We should notice that in the mantra, chanting the name of RAma precedes that of KRShNa, and both are indeed names of Hari NArAyaNa.

But then the KRShNa sampradAyas in their own priorities of monopoly have reversed the order of the mantra which is no surprise, as they even deny KRShNa as an avatar of ViShNu.

Some thoughts on the mantra:

• Generally, most mantras meant for chanting begin with AUM. There are three popular mantras that do not:

hare RAma hare RAma RAma RAma hare hare |
hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare ||

shrI RAm jaya RAm jaya jaya RAm | (TuLasidAsa)

jaya jaya Shankara hara hara Shankara | (Shankara saMpradAya)

• The word 'hare' is possibly short for 'hareShavara' which indicates one combined form of Shiva and ViShNu: hariH is ViShNu, haraH is Shiva, and hareShvara is a combination of them both.

• The mantra has an AvRtti--turning back, built into it; when its words roll on the tongue and in mind, they have the power to unite the jIva with hareShvara--Brahman, irrespective of the jIva's bhakti sampradAya--devotional affiliations.

• Certainly, the name of Isvara is not different from him. Form is visual, and gross; name is aural, and far subtler. Name is easier to chant than visualizing the form in meditation, because we first listen to our thoughts before they take shape, which is why shravaNa-manana-nididhyAsana.

• The Kali-santarana UpaniShad suggests above that this mantra can be chanted in mind just like that, without any prior niyama. It also suggests that the extent of purification can get the dvaita or advaita mokSha, depending on the sincerity, number and longing intensity of the jIva.

• The 'hare KRShNa' mantra is certainly a mahAmantra, like many others, such as the GAyatrI, Shiva panchAkShara (AUM nama shivAya) or the ViShNu aShTAkShra (aum namo nArAyaNa). All such laukika mantras are for everyone across sampradAyas, subject only to the devotee's individual preferences.

smaranam
23 March 2010, 10:41 AM
Namaste

Thank you SaidevoJi for the nice explanation.



We should notice that in the mantra, chanting the name of RAma precedes that of KRShNa, and both are indeed names of Hari NArAyaNa.

But then the KRShNa sampradAyas in their own priorities of monopoly have reversed the order of the mantra which is no surprise, as they even deny KRShNa as an avatar of ViShNu.

Appearantly Chaitanya MahAprabhu turned it around for several reasons -
one - to avoid violation of Ved-Mantra rules, second - to keep focus one-pointed on KRSNa
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=41334&postcount=9

The story goes that MahAprabhu transformed almost everyone He came across - with one exception - i believe MurAri GuptA. He was a RAm bhakt and refused to switch to KRSNa. So that made it evident to others that MurAri GuptA was HanumAn :)



• The word 'hare' is possibly short for 'hareShavara' which indicates one combined form of Shiva and ViShNu: hariH is ViShNu, haraH is Shiva, and hareShvara is a combination of them both.

That's a good point, really.

While Hare is considered vocative of Hari, and RAm is AtmArAm who gives bliss,
some Vaishnavas (particularly Gaudiya) interpret Hare as vocative of HarA = RAdhA , and RAm for them is BalarAm ! Now that would be talking it a bit too far on first glance. However, BalaRAm is Shankarshana acc. to them, who is Shiva again.

:)

============

kAyena vAchA manas-endriyair vaa
budhi Atmanava prakriteh svabhAvaat
karomi yadyat sakalam parasmai
NArAyanAyeti samarpayAmi SB 11.2.36 (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/11/2/36/en)

Achyutam, Keshavam, RAma, NArAyanam,
Krshna, DAmodaram, VAsudevam, Harim,
Shridharam, Madhavam, GopikAh-Vallabham,
JAnaki-NAyakam, Ramchandram bhaje

Hare RAm Hare RAm RAm RAm Hare Hare
Hare KRSNa Hare KRSNa KRSNa KRSNa Hare Hare

Hare RAm Hare RAm RAm RAm Hare Hare
Hare KRSNa Hare KRSNa KRSNa KRSNa Hare Hare

Hare RAm Hare RAm RAm RAm Hare Hare
Hare KRSNa Hare KRSNa KRSNa KRSNa Hare Hare

........
....
...

devotee
23 March 2010, 09:37 PM
Namaste Saidevo ji,



The 'hare RAma--hare KRShNa' mantra is from the Kali-santarana UpaniShad:


Thanks for the detail info on this mantra. :)

OM

saidevo
24 March 2010, 01:57 AM
namaste Devotee.

Smaranam has already given more details of the mantra in his post. I didn't notice it:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=41334&postcount=9

Krsna Das
24 March 2010, 02:04 AM
While Hare is considered vocative of Hari, and RAm is AtmArAm who gives bliss,
some Vaishnavas (particularly Gaudiya) interpret Hare as vocative of HarA = RAdhA , and RAm for them is BalarAm ! Now that would be talking it a bit too far on first glance. However, BalaRAm is Shankarshana acc. to them, who is Shiva again.

Hare Krsna Smaranam Ji...

Just FYI...my Guru MaharAja explains that Mahamantra is mantra of Radha-Krsna only and rAm refers to Krsna in the form of rAdha-ramaN and not BalarAm.

Maybe some other vaishnava faiths take rAm to be balarAm.

Hari Hari...

devotee
24 March 2010, 02:33 AM
Namaste,

Sometimes, I am amused to see devotees' so much insistence on a particular name and form as mentioned by Krsna Das in his above post. There is nothing wrong in what he says as everyone should follow what his Guru says. However, I would like to state a common non-sampradaya-attached Hindu's understanding below :

Narayana or Vishnu incarnated as Rama and also Krishna ... the two of the total ten avataars of Vishnu/Narayana. The Kali Santarana Upanishad from where this mantra has been taken, also states that it is the name of the Narayan, the Adi Purusha.

So, the Ram mentioned in the mantra, "Hare Ram Hare Ram ..." imho, should be Sri Ramchandra, the son of Dashrath, the king of Ayodhya. Though Balram is also one of the avataars of Vishnu but Ram is certainly more popular among Visnhu Devotees than Balram for worshipping as Ishta Devata.

OM

smaranam
24 March 2010, 07:23 AM
Namaste




Hare Krsna Smaranam Ji...

Just FYI...my Guru MaharAja explains that Mahamantra is mantra of Radha-Krsna only and rAm refers to Krsna in the form of rAdha-ramaN and not BalarAm.

Maybe some other vaishnava faiths take rAm to be balarAm.

Hari Hari...

Hare KRSNa, you are right, either Bhakti Vinod Thakur or BhaktisiddhAnta Saraswati - mentions that rAm is RAdhA-ramaN , or just ramaNa who gives us bliss. Well , that's precisely who SiyAvar RAmchandra is isn't it ? AtmArAm and SitA-ramaN, but i understand this is for one-pointed RAdhA-KRSNa bhakti.

I do apologize for mentioning about BalarAm without any backing of shastra, but have only heard devotees mention this. Perhaps that shouldn't be from mahamantra point of view.
Some people also look upto NityAnanda Prabhu as BalarAm (NityAnanda-rAm , which he is). So its personal.

To me, Hare rAm - Hari as Shri RAm[chandra] and Hare KRSNa - Hari as KRSNa . It is very personal.

-----

I have read only a few things by NArAyaN MahArAj , simply delightful.



Sometimes, I am amused to see devotees' so much insistence on a particular name and form as mentioned by Krsna Das in his above post. There is nothing wrong in what he says as everyone should follow what his Guru says. However, I would like to state a common non-sampradaya-attached Hindu's understanding below :

OM

I know what you mean, and that is how it is for me.
The reason Gurus guide people this way is for the purpose of one-pointed Bhakti without diversion as per their sAmpradAy. So, if their line of thinking is everything for RAdhA-KRSNa, then its not just NArAyaNa, its all "RAdhA-RamaN Hari bol" , not SitA-ramaN, not RukmiNi-ramaN either :)
And Hare is calling HarA = RAdhA to bestow mercy so She will talk to KRSNa on the devotee's behalf.

Govinda bolo Hari GopAl bolo
RAdhA-ramaNa Hari Govinda bolo
MAdhav Mukunda Hari GopAla bolo

upsydownyupsy mv ss
28 March 2010, 03:45 AM
From conversations that I've had with ISKCON devotees, it seems that they ascribe great power and potency to the Hare Krishna mantra. From what I've heard, they believe:
The Hare Krishna Mantra is non-different from Lord Krishna (i.e. when one chants the mantra, Lord Krishna literally dances on one's tongue)
The Hare Krishna Mantra can purify anything
Anyone who even hears the Hare Krishna Mantra is assured of a human birth in their next life (not to mention actually chanting it)
Reciting the Hare Krishna Mantra cleanses one from karma
The Hare Krishna Mantra is the best mantra of all (Maha-mantra)Apart from the last point, would most non-ISKCON and non-Gaudiya Hindus agree with these points? Or would they see them as something purely belonging to Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

On the other hand, are there any sects that ascribe the potencies listed above to the mantra(s) of their own Gods? For example, would a Saivite say that "Om Namah Sivaya" is non-different from Lord Shiva and that anyone who hears it will not take an animal birth in their next life?

I'm a smartha. A smartha is allowed to be both shaiva or vaishnava. :) I am shaiva. Of course, all mantras are powerful in the right tongue and heart and head. What I mean to say is mantras are dependent on devotion of the person reciting it, if that person knows the meaning too, the increases even more. Even if you dont know any mantra, all u can say is 'aum' it does the things that other mantras can do, as it is the beeja mantra and yogis agree with this. Even if ur dumb, you can use devotion, as it itself is omkara. I am not saying mantras are not important, all I am saying is devotion is important and to know the meaning behind it. Mantras are a part of devotion. I dont know the meaning of half the things I recite, but it works. It reminds me.... One day, I heard the news that there was a bomb blast in somewhere in bangalore(the city in which I live). On the advice of my friend, me and my friend prayed to god that casualities must be limited with all my heart. There was some kind of a good surge in my brain, and guess what, the casualities were limited, it worked. I have heard mantras have the power, because of their meanings and because the rishis and sages have imbibed their own life force in to them. Whenever I recite Om namah shivaya or om namo narayanaya, with full devotion, I can experience that things go my way. Remember the mantras work only when recited in the bhava(feeling) required, and the feeling usually required is devotion...


Aum namo SHIVASHANKARANARAYANAYA.