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wcrow
20 March 2010, 08:49 AM
I am wondering what the views of cleanliness are in hinduism. For instance in many religions it is seen as appropriate to bathe or clean oneself before commencing in religious activities - like the wudu for islam ect.

Is there something similar in hinduism?

Thanks in advance,

Wilfred

Eastern Mind
20 March 2010, 10:07 AM
wcrow: As far as I know, all Hindus without exception would take a shower before going to temple or doing sadhana. It rids the body of odic (worldly) forces.

Aum Namasivaya

LALKAR
20 March 2010, 10:16 AM
Nahaste,

Cleanliness is for shuddhta, Hinduism teachs shuddhta of body and soul

doby needs bath and soul need divine deeds

wcrow
21 March 2010, 03:07 PM
Thanks. It is interesting to know this, because there are so many religions that have a special ritual for cleanliness that should be done before religious activity.

sanjaya
21 March 2010, 04:37 PM
In my family, we don't go into the puja room before bathing. For some reason children are exempt from this. But apparently this is a fairly widely practiced cleanliness tradition among Hindus.

yajvan
21 March 2010, 07:51 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Let me ask our esteemed HDF members the following... does cleanliness = purity? i.e. does śauca (cleanliness) contribute to one's overall progress? Is it a practice ?

If we are purifed on the outside by snāna ( ritual bath) or āpa (a quantity of water) what is there to purifiy us on the inside ( mind, heart, intellect) ? We can recall that śauca is considered one of the five niyama-s¹ .

praṇām

1. more on niyama-s here if there is interest: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970)

ScottMalaysia
22 March 2010, 12:48 AM
One should generally bathe and wear clean (i.e. freshly washed) clothes before worship.

However, the Catechism of Hindu Dharma (http://www.archive.org/download/thecatechismofhi00vasuuoft/thecatechismofhi00vasuuoft.pdf) states that if a person is prevented from bathing before worship, he doesn't have to abstain from it. The book quotes the Mahanirvana (which I think is one of the Tantras) as saying "Whether a man has bathed or has not bathed, has taken his food or is with empty stomach, he may worship the Supreme Self always with a pure heart" (Mahanirvana, III, 78)

The only thing required is a pure heart:

"The only condition in this practice is that he should possess a pure heart, and the only resolution that he should form is a mental resolution or thought control." (Ibid. III, 120)

However, if you're going to be entering the sacred areas in a temple (the area in front of the altar in a North Indian temple or the shrines in a South Indian temple) then more rigorous conditions are required (but as you're not a priest you don't need to worry about those.)

Eastern Mind
22 March 2010, 07:58 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Let me ask our esteemed HDF members the following... does cleanliness = purity? i.e. does śauca (cleanliness) contribute to one's overall progress? Is it a practice ?

If we are purifed on the outside by snāna ( ritual bath) or āpa (a quantity of water) what is there to purifiy us on the inside ( mind, heart, intellect) ? We can recall that śauca is considered one of the five niyama-s¹ .

praṇām

1. more on niyama-s here if there is interest: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970)

Yajvan: IMO, cleanliness does not EQUAL purity. Cleanliness usually only refers to the external body, although it can mean the inside. Purity is more all encompassing, including mind, action, soul, etc. I remember one day when I was young a wise woman observed how even in this regard, people could only see the external. Somebody would spend twenty minutes bathing, and then proceed in ten seconds to eat a slab of meat, basically undoing the bath. We put 'poisons' of all kinds into our bodies each day without realising it: chemicals, undue amounts of sugar, caffeine, etc. Of course many of these are debatable.

Just some ideas.
Aum Namasivaya

TatTvamAsi
22 March 2010, 03:15 PM
Sauca is conducive to positive energy flow and thus is conducive to prayer which includes ritual, meditation, yogasana etc. To achieve a sattvic state of mind, mental AND physical purity is a must. Every prayer starts with sankalpa and for many orthodox Hindus, with the SataRudriya as a purification of the mind.

Physical cleanliness is usually a prerequisite to inner cleanliness and thus they are bound. A person who is filthy outside will usually be filthy in other matters as well. As always, there are exceptions (a la Raikva) but that doesn't imply anything.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Let me ask our esteemed HDF members the following... does cleanliness = purity? i.e. does śauca (cleanliness) contribute to one's overall progress? Is it a practice ?

If we are purifed on the outside by snāna ( ritual bath) or āpa (a quantity of water) what is there to purifiy us on the inside ( mind, heart, intellect) ? We can recall that śauca is considered one of the five niyama-s¹ .

praṇām

1. more on niyama-s here if there is interest: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970)

Eastern Mind
22 March 2010, 04:09 PM
Sauca is conducive to positive energy flow and thus is conducive to prayer which includes ritual, meditation, yogasana etc.


Vannakam: I like this wording, especially 'conducive to' . It implies nothing hard and fast, yet indicates the truth. I would think that most people who even have an inkling to the 'feeling' of this would have discovered by accident or purposeful experimentation. Often people who work in the world will take a quick shower when reentering the sanctuary of the home just to remove the worldly dross, especially on those days when such dross was stronger. The bigger the onion, the bigger the stink.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
22 March 2010, 09:11 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

TTA writes,

Sauca is conducive to positive energy flow and thus is conducive to prayer which includes ritual, meditation, yogasana etc. To achieve a sattvic state of mind, mental AND physical purity is a must. Every prayer starts with sankalpa and for many orthodox Hindus, with the SataRudriya as a purification of the mind.

This purity we are discussing is a big deal ( as I see it) as it infers more then meets the eye ( as usual ). A well known invocation from the Garuḍa Purāṇa (2.47.52) suggests inner and outer purity is possible...Let me offer the sonnet that I have posted before and is most dear and insightful:

apavitraḥ pavitrau vā
sarvāvastām gataupi vā |
yaḥ smarat pundarīkākśam
sa bhāhyābhyantaraḥ suciḥ ||

Some write it like this:

apavitrah pavitro va
sarvastham gato'pi va |
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantarah sucih ||

What does this say? I have offered to the best of my understanding the sanskrit (some like to write saṁskṛt) equivalents for your consideration below - as it will help us with a better appreciation to its translation.

This sūkta says ( in brief)
Whether pure or impure, whether all places are permeated by purity or impurity, whoever opens himself to the Lotus Eyed One gains inner and outer purity.

In a nut shell, the one that opens him/her self - moves to, puts oneself in contact with, remembers, experiences or 'sees' (sūci) the Lotus-eyed One (puṇḍarīka) , then this person will gain inner and outter purity i.e. bhā or luster, light, will manifest within this person. This 'person' = the adhvanīya अध्वनीन, a traveler, the person on the path.

This Lotus-eyed One (puṇḍarīka) is Viṣṇu or Śiva. Puṇḍarīka पुण्डरीक is a lotus-flower, esp. a white lotus expressive of beauty; and we know 'eyed' is akṣa अक्ष. So Pundarīkākśa the white-lotus (puṇḍarīka) + eyed (akṣa अक्ष) is the puṇḍa पुण्ड or a sign of Viṣṇu or Śiva.
This is considered saṁketa - a hint, a indication, a symbol. But of what? Pundarīkākśa and its'mark' is pure awareness, of unboundedness, of būmān - the fullness of the Absolute, the SELF. It is by opening oneself to the fullness of pure awareness that one gains inner and outter purity. This is anugraha (grace, favor) that is offered (su - to grant or bestow) by Pundarīkākśa, allowing this to manifest in one's daily life.

So a simple question I think I would ask regarding this sūkta - it starts off by saying apavitra - impure and pavitra पवित्र. What is impure and pure imply? Any ideas?

pranam

The sūkta by its words

apavitra अपवित्र- impure note that apa अप when used as a prefix to nouns and verbs , expresses 'away' , 'off' , 'back'
pavitra पवित्र- a means of purification , filter ; a means of purifying or clearing the mind ; rain or rubbing
vā वा- 'or', 'on the one side' , 'on the other'
sarva सर्वwhole , entire , all , every
vastu वस्तु- the seat or place of; any really existing or abiding substance or essence; vasta वस्त- a house
gata गत- come to, arrived at; known, understood ; gone to any state or condition , fallen into ; relating to , referring to , connected with
pi पि- move, to go
yaḥ यःor ya य- mover, goer
sma स्म- 'ever' , 'always' (as in remembering) ; smara स्मर memory , remembrance , recollection ; loving recollection; smaret is = smara स्मरmemory , remembrance , recollection ; loving recollection
puṇḍa पुण्ड- a mark, sign; puṇḍarīka पुण्डरीक- a lotus-flower, esp. a white lotus expressive of beauty;
akṣa - the eye; also a seed as in rudrākṣa
Hence puṇḍarīka पुण्डरीक+ akṣa अक्ष= (beautiful, lotus-flowered, lotus-eyed; now the necxt word suggests 'sa' a noun for viṣṇu or śiva it is He that is puṇḍarīka, the beautiful, lotus-eye Lord of spendor (bhā)
sa स with, togetther with, along with - as it connect to sa bhāya; also a noun for viṣṇu or śiva
bhā भा- to manifest; light , brightness , splendour ; to appear as , seem , look like , pass for ; be, exist;
ba ब often meaning va व- auspicious; ocean, water; strong, powerful; wind, air
tara तर- concuring, surpassing, ; a raft ( for crossing)
ya य- mover, goer and/or yad यद्' so that', 'as in so much' ; masculine - puruṣa
su is rooted sū सू- grant, bestow
sūci सूचि or sūcī सूची- sight , seeing (dṛṣṭi) ; su is rooted sū सू- grant, bestow and applies here to what is granted.
additional words
āvāhana आवाहन- invocation , invitation , inviting, calling; āvāhanaṁ आवाहनंis āvāhana आवाहन- invocation , invitation , inviting, calling.
Garuḍa गरुड- 'devourer'; vehicle of viṣṇu that is a winged bird, chief of the feathered race , enemy of the serpent-race
Purāṇa पुराण-a class of sacred works compiled by the kavi vyāsa; the word Purāṇa itself means belonging to ancient or olden times; There are 18 major purāṇa-s.
saṁketa संकेत- hint , allusion , preconcerted sign or signal or gesture

smaranam
23 March 2010, 11:49 AM
So a simple question I think I would ask regarding this sūkta - it starts off by saying apavitra - impure and pavitra पवित्र. What is impure and pure imply? Any ideas?



Namaste Yajvanji

All that comes to mind is trigunAteet, nistraiguNa, beyond or surpassing the 3 modes of nature. Hence crossing all duality.

Bhagavad Gita 14.22 - 27
http://www.sivanandaonline.org/graphics/ebooks/swami_sivanandaji/downnload/bhagavad_gita.html#_VPID_23
Sri Bhagavaan Uvaacha:

Prakaasham cha pravrittim cha mohameva cha paandava;
Na dweshti sampravrittaani na nivrittaani kaangkshati.
The Blessed Lord said:

22. Light, activity and delusion,-when they are present, O Arjuna, he hates not, nor does he long for them when they are absent!

Udaaseenavadaaseeno gunairyo na vichaalyate;
Gunaa vartanta ityeva yo'vatishthati nengate.
23. He who, seated like one unconcerned, is not moved by the qualities, and who, knowing that the qualities are active, is self-centred and moves not,

Samaduhkhasukhah swasthah samaloshtaashmakaanchanah;
Tulyapriyaapriyo dheeras tulyanindaatma samstutih.
24. Alike in pleasure and pain, who dwells in the Self, to whom a clod of earth, stone and gold are alike, to whom the dear and the unfriendly are alike, firm, the same in censure and praise,

Maanaapamaanayostulyas tulyo mitraaripakshayoh;
Sarvaarambhaparityaagee gunaateetah sa uchyate.
25. The same in honour and dishonour, the same to friend and foe, abandoning all undertakings-he is said to have crossed the qualities.

Maam cha yo'vyabhichaarena bhaktiyogena sevate;
Sa gunaan samateetyaitaan brahmabhooyaaya kalpate.
26. And he who serves Me with unswerving devotion, he, crossing beyond the qualities, is fit for becoming Brahman.

Brahmano hi pratishthaa'ham amritasyaavyayasya cha;
Shaashwatasya cha dharmasya sukhasyaikaantikasya cha.
27. For I am the abode of Brahman, the immortal and the immutable, of everlasting Dharma and of absolute bliss.

So says that pundarIka , the SELF of all existence.

yajvan
24 March 2010, 11:23 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté smaranam ,

Thank you for your post. I think the bhāgavad gītā offers many insights as you have called out. I will leave some additional bhāgavad gītā ideas for a later post as it is rich with information on this matter.

My question posed,


So a simple question I think I would ask regarding this sūkta - it starts off by saying apavitra - impure and pavitra पवित्र. What is impure and pure imply? Any ideas?

As I see it, this pure and impure can be looked-at in many ways¹. Let me offer a few:

Pure ( pavitra) & apavitra (impure) - Notion 1This can be viewed on the physical level of world. Pure places of existence ( say a temple) and impure places ( a garbage heap).
This also applies to one's own body of clean and/or unclean

Pure ( pavitra) & apavitra (impure)- Notion 2This can be view on spiritual level of one's own development - removing the impurities from one's pure self. In kaśmir śaivism we can look to Abhinavagupta-ji as he says it this way:
Just as by washing the dirt or impurity lying in the inner fold of a cloth, the dirt lying on the upper portion ( the outer folds) gets automatically washed or cleansed ; even so, by the removal of the dirt (mala) lying at the subtle levels, the dirt residing at the madhyamā levels get automatically removed.

We dip into pure awareness ( the pure) then come back. Each time this is done, some purification happens, mala-s (impure) are being removed, but more importantly we are infusing more and more pure awareness into our daily awareness. We are 'refreshing' the system.

So we become ṣodhya¹ (the one being cleansed), the Divine is the ṣodhaka (the purifier) and the withdrawal approach is ṣodhana ( or the process). By doing this process, the aspirant is fulfilling , in part, what kṛṣṇa-ji advises¹, be without the 3 guna-s. When one withdraws and experiences turīya, the 3 guna-s are left in duality, the relative field of life.

Now Abhinavagupta say it a bit differently, but the meaning is the same. He says, Leave both dharma and adharma . Having left both truth and falsehood leave also by which you leave everything.
This instruction is the same. Leaving dharma and adharma behind, that is within the world of duality ( impurity), the relative field of life of thinking and doing. But what does he mean leave also by which you leave everything? He his saying even leave behind the technique (upāya), the mantra or method that got you to this level of refined consciousness.



Pure ( pavitra) & apavitra (impure) - Notion 3Perfectly pure, without blemish, unalloyed pure is brahman, no speck of impurity. We can consider this parā or exceedingly Supreme. Some may call this abheda (absence of difference or distinction).
Now what is impure ? it is the notion of the pure (śuddha - pure, free from blemish, faultless, white) co-mingled with creation or the material portion of creation. It is no longer absolutely pure, spotless or kevela , meaning unmingled, un-compounded. Now some would call this bhedha - with difference. We mean with difference as the creation is the field if differentiation, multiplicity, change.

Hence when the sūkta says
Whether pure or impure, whether all places are permeated by purity or impurity, whoever opens himself to the Lotus Eyed One gains inner and outer purity.
This suggests a wide field of vision i.e. from the individual , to the environment, to the cosmos, to the Divine


praṇām


words and references

Many ways i.e. 3 Levels
I have come to appreciate that comprehension, appreciation and understanding of the śastra-s come on multiple levels. The wise tell us there are 3 levels of interpretation that occur simultaneously:


ādhibautika आधिभौतिक - the physical level - derived or produced from the elements
ādhidaivika आधिदैविक - the cosmic level pertaining to the devatā
ādhytmika आध्यात्मिक - spiritual , of the Supreme, Self.
Bhāgavad gītā Chapter 2, 45th śloka ; 48th śloka
ṣodhya शोध्य - to be cleansed or purified or refined or corrected or improved

ṣodhaka शोधक- a purifier

ṣodhana शोधन - the process of cleaning, purifying, correcting, improving

sūkṣma gati : sūkṣma सूक्ष्म acute , subtle , keen + gati गति manner or power of going, procession, march, passage, procedure, progress, movement

anu+sandha+āna : anu अनु- each by each, orderly, methodically, one after another, repeatedly; saṃdhi संधि- is the junction point, transition from one to the other; āna आन- exhaling the breath through the nose.

upāya-s उपाय that by which one reaches one's aim , a means or expedient

smaranam
25 March 2010, 07:43 AM
Many ways i.e. 3 Levels
I have come to appreciate that comprehension, appreciation and understanding of the śastra-s come on multiple levels. The wise tell us there are 3 levels of interpretation that occur simultaneously:

[LIST]
ādhibautika आधिभौतिक - the physical level - derived or produced from the elements
ādhidaivika आधिदैविक - the cosmic level pertaining to the devatā
ādhytmika आध्यात्मिक - spiritual , of the Supreme, Self.



praNAm

This is very interesting, thank you. Looking at the shloka on three planes.

Arjun asks and KRSNa explains what is and how He is behind everything Adhibhautik Adhidaivik AdhyAtmik.

It is so true that every small piece of truth can be seen on these three planes. In this context what i have always noticed is the Vedic "Sun".

The "Sun" is refered to interchangeably in the Vedic scripture to mean

1. The physical Sun (Adhibhautik) around whom we(planets) revolve

2. The Lord , Purusha - Being/Person in the Sun (Adhidaivik ) = SuryanArAyaNa

3. The spiritual Sun (AdhyAtmik) = the Universal ATMA = ParamAtmA around Whom everything revolves , and Who illuminates everything.

In one sense, is it correct to say the following ?
Adhibhautik = Brahman (sarvam idam)
Adhidaivik = BhagvAn, Deva, Ishvar and anya (other) devtA
AdhyAtmik = ParamAtmA , AtmA


Sorry , i went a bit off topic.

wcrow
26 March 2010, 08:51 AM
Once again, you have all provided to much on a topic that it is overwhelming! Don't get me wrong, this is great, just a lot to take in. I might be a while digesting this information, and if I have any questions or queries, I will ask them.

Thanks,

Wilfred.

smaranam
26 March 2010, 09:25 AM
Once again, you have all provided to much on a topic that it is overwhelming! Don't get me wrong, this is great, just a lot to take in.

Namaste,

Of Course, the immediate answers to your qn go only upto post #11 acc. to me. For the rest, please take your time, or if you don't want to jump to it , that's fine. We were only discussing.
Depends on how far you are with the Bhagavad Gita.