Alcohol

[ScottMalaysia]

I know that ISKCON is against alcohol, but what do normal Hindus think about drinking alcohol? I'm not talking about getting totally drunk (even the Catholic Church considers drunkenness a sin), but an occaisional casual drink. What do Hindus feel about having a glass of wine at a family dinner or having a beer with some mates?

From conversations I've had with ISKCON devotees, they believe that the very presence of alcohol in a house contaminates it. What do you think about the presence of the substance itself? Is it bad or not?

Yes, alcohol can be abused, but so can medicinal drugs like codeine and ritalin. Are they therefore bad because they have the potential to be abused? I don't see an ISKCON devotee saying that a devotee in pain isn't allowed to have codeine because some people abuse it. Alcohol is the same. It can be used as a relaxant, to calm you down, or it can be abused by consuming large amounts of it.
(If the Scriptures aren't in agreement with this above view, I'll rescind it)

Please share your thoughts.

[Tirisilex]

Personaly I have no problem with alcohol.. As Long as I do not get drunk it's ok. Even Jesus Made "More" Wine at a wedding.

[TatTvamAsi]

If you care to read a little about Hinduism, you'll know the basis of vegetarianism; the same principle applies to any intoxicants.

With these types of questions, always look at it in terms of guna: sattva, rajas, tamas.

Anything that is fermented is considered tamasic. Hence, it should be avoided (this is for the average person: grhsta).

If you want to adopt Hinduism, respect the traditions, adhere to them, and follow them. In typical arrogant fashion of westerners, don't force your rotten habits on the Indian/Hindu ethos. Learn to become disciplined instead of finding excuses for continuing your bad habits.

This is analogous to many westerners trying to "prove" that ancient sages of India ate meat so it is "okay" to do so now. What idiocy!

[Krsna Das]

hare krsna....Scott...

SO have you started offering the food to Lord, or you are still eating for your enjoyment?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam all:

re alcohol

I do not believe in the black/white teetotaller 'alcohol is bad' philosophy of western religious radicals. The black/white philosophy is too Abrahamic. At the same time, my personal alcohol consumption amounts to about one beer a year. I simply don't like the stuff, and rarely am in social situations where I might be offered it.

It must have its place, as everything is God. But what that place is, is up for debate. Perhaps its just a spot to work out karma.

Clearly alcohol is a huge social problem for the planet. It causes ridiculous health care costs, early death, car accidents, family violence, criminal behaviour, and more. Its spreading in India and China having already swept a destructive path through Russia, Latin America, and North America and more. The alcohol lobby group in the US and Canada funnels as much or more money into government sway campaigns than the meat industry. They can ban tobacco advertising, but continue to allow booze to be presented in a positive way. It doesn't take much of an eye to figure in reality booze is almost the opposite of its portrayal. One just has to attend a sports event where the juice is served, and people choose to make asses of themselves.

Anyone who has had personal relationships with people who have the disease of alcoholism know that they can't touch the stuff, even once. That is me.

I think we as Hindus have the responsibility to be leaders in such things, by participating in extreme moderation, or not at all.

Aum Namasivaya

[Krsna Das]

I do not believe in the black/white teetotaller 'alcohol is bad' philosophy of western religious radicals. The black/white philosophy is too Abrahamic. At the same time, my personal alcohol consumption amounts to about one beer a year.


We are discussing not about personal beleifs, but what vedic literature says or what Srila Vyasa says.

Alcohol in each and every way is tamasik, whether a beer of glass/year or a full bottle of vodka/hour.

[Eastern Mind]

what do normal Hindus think about drinking alcohol? I'm not talking about getting totally drunk (even the Catholic Church considers drunkenness a sin), but an occaisional casual drink. What do Hindus feel about having a glass of wine at a family dinner or having a beer with some mates?


Vannakkam Krsna: I read Scott's post as above, and answered it from my POV. Maybe I'm not a 'normal' Hindu.

Aum Namasivaya

[sambya]

i think that the position of alcoholic beverages in indian society has changed a number of times throughout history . for example in early vedic period intoxicants like suraa and soma was common . howver in later ages it was not looked upon with much favour .
even now drinking with family is unthinkable for the vast majority of traditional hindu families . same can be said of smoking . you might be an independent adult who smokes and your family knows everything about it , but you r still expected not to light a ciggeretter in front of elders and parents . its simply considered as unmannerly .

strangely enough alcohol ( kaaran) remains an indespensible item of offering in kali puja ( origins in tantra) . many who wish to stay out of that offer a token substitute of coconut water , grated ginger and honey kept in a brass bowl !!

[NayaSurya]

I'm anglo, from Kentucky, and have never used alcohol, ever. In my home all forms of such things are not allowed. No smoking no drinking. These are toxic to your body. I don't drink/smoke and ask that you abstain around me, but what you do on your own time is oki fine with me.

But, it is not my place to say if everyone should be so strict, each person must make that decision for themself.

[Nara]

.... This is analogous to many westerners trying to "prove" that ancient sages of India ate meat so it is "okay" to do so now. What idiocy!

There is a story about Agastya, a brahmin sage, eating a goat who was really Vathapi, trying to kill Agastya. This seems to suggest meat eating vedic sages without any interference from westerners.

Also, no vedic sacrifice is supposed to be complete until and unless the barhmins performing the sacrifice partake at least a portion of the meat offered into the fire of the homam.

I have heard that meat is one of the items that is supposed to be interred into the fire during srardhams, and then a portion of that meat to be offered to those who eat the brahmanartham meal. I wonder whether this counts as eating meat.

In any case, I do agree with the purport of your statement that just because the vedic sages did it, it does not necessarily follow that we must do it too.

Cheers!

[TatTvamAsi]

There is a story about Agastya, a brahmin sage, eating a goat who was really Vathapi, trying to kill Agastya. This seems to suggest meat eating vedic sages without any interference from westerners.

Also, no vedic sacrifice is supposed to be complete until and unless the barhmins performing the sacrifice partake at least a portion of the meat offered into the fire of the homam.

I have heard that meat is one of the items that is supposed to be interred into the fire during srardhams, and then a portion of that meat to be offered to those who eat the brahmanartham meal. I wonder whether this counts as eating meat.

In any case, I do agree with the purport of your statement that just because the vedic sages did it, it does not necessarily follow that we must do it too.

Cheers!

Stories are abundant in any philosophy. However, there is no scriptural evidence, or cultural evidence, at least amongst Brahmins, in favor of eating meat.

Have you seen anyone who performs srArdham using meat? If not, have you done so? There has not been any indication that that was the practice although I suppose thousands of years ago it may have been. However, as you suggested, using meat in yagnya is quite different from eating it for sustenance/pleasure and the same goes with intoxicants and hallucinogens of any kind.

[wcrow]

This is a very interesting discussion. Does the idea of "no intoxicants" extend to drugs such as caffine, in tea, coffee, chocolate ect?

[Krsna Das]

This is a very interesting discussion. Does the idea of "no intoxicants" extend to drugs such as caffine, in tea, coffee, chocolate ect?

Yes, it does.

[Eastern Mind]

This is a very interesting discussion. Does the idea of "no intoxicants" extend to drugs such as caffine, in tea, coffee, chocolate ect?

Vannakkam wcrow: This topic will vary from place to place, sect to sect, just as the religion itself does. It would be quite complex. The term 'intoxicant' takes on different definitions for different people. Some would even say darshana is intoxicating. So we have one of those words which is not clearly defined.

Here are a few statements that we could debate. Personally, I feel each individual has to decide, and there are no really hard and fast rules.

Tea varies in caffeine levels, and from place to place.
Medicines such as painkillers and antidepressants are used to treat people. So is insulin, and aspirin.
Too much sugar has a negative affect on the body and is downright unhealthy.
Each person's body is different, and each person reacts differently.
Some spices like nutmeg for example if overused are hallucinogens.

So it isn't cut and dry. Of course this is just my POV.

Aum Namasivaya

[wcrow]

Vannakkam wcrow: This topic will vary from place to place, sect to sect, just as the religion itself does. It would be quite complex. The term 'intoxicant' takes on different definitions for different people. Some would even say darshana is intoxicating. So we have one of those words which is not clearly defined.

Here are a few statements that we could debate. Personally, I feel each individual has to decide, and there are no really hard and fast rules.

Tea varies in caffeine levels, and from place to place.
Medicines such as painkillers and antidepressants are used to treat people. So is insulin, and aspirin.
Too much sugar has a negative affect on the body and is downright unhealthy.
Each person's body is different, and each person reacts differently.
Some spices like nutmeg for example if overused are hallucinogens.

So it isn't cut and dry. Of course this is just my POV.

Aum Namasivaya

Thanks, both you and Krishna Das, for your POVs.

I was going to say, if tea is seen as an intoxicant and not reccomended for consumption, then why is india world renowned for its tea? I'm not challenging, just asking.

[Ashvati]

Probably becasue its where the british have always gotten most of theirs, and they're known for being tea-lovers, so naturally where they get their tea must be where the best tea is from. I don't know how true that logic, is, but it sounds about right for what the line of thinking must be.

[Krsna Das]

India is renowned for it's tea - this is correct, but it is also very well known for it's herbal tea which does not contain any tea leaves and hence caffeine.

So we drink this tea, because it does not contain any caffeine. It is also called Gurukul tea.

My understanding is that British brought the Tea to India. Previously Lassi or chhach (butter milk) was a very common drink in India (as told to me by elders)

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Please check this links for KAnchi ParamAchArya's teachings on the subject of this thread:

himsA--injury, in the yajnas
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=41960&postcount=21

The second link is listed inside the posting.

[saidevo]

Clearly alcohol is a huge social problem for the planet. It causes ridiculous health care costs, early death, car accidents, family violence, criminal behaviour, and more. Its spreading in India and China having already swept a destructive path through Russia, Latin America, and North America and more. The alcohol lobby group in the US and Canada funnels as much or more money into government sway campaigns than the meat industry. They can ban tobacco advertising, but continue to allow booze to be presented in a positive way. It doesn't take much of an eye to figure in reality booze is almost the opposite of its portrayal. One just has to attend a sports event where the juice is served, and people choose to make asses of themselves.


I am reminded of a movie I watched some time back:
"Thank You for Smoking"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_You_for_Smoking

In this film, three leading lobbyists who call themselves the MOD (merchant of death) squad discuss their achievements:

Tobacco lobbyist: My product puts away 475,000 a year. That's 1,200 a day.

Alcohol lobbyist: There are around 1,00,000 alcohol related deaths in a year in the US; that is 270 a day.

Firearms lobbyist: (answering the question 'How many gun deaths a year in the U.S.?') 11,000; 30 a day.

With other killer agents such as the drugs and diseases and the current research about the possibly of brain cancer due to addictive use of mobile phones, it seems that there is no need for natural disasters or Asuric avatars like Hiter to trigger a genocide!

[sambya]

well, tea was brought to india by the british , like potatoes and pinnaples which were brought before by other westerners . the popularity of tea in india is a recent phenomenon .
however herbal formulations were very common right since the vedic ages , starting with soma .

another point to note here is not all hindus( if you allow me to use a common name for easier understanding) consider intoxicants as equally bad . a large proportion of shaivite sadhus engage in smoking marijuana and tantirks in drinking karana(alcohol) .

common hindu polulation generally do not consider tea , coffee or chocolates as intoxicants .

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

I read the other day how a team of British doctors and scientists made the claim and press release that alcohol was the worst drug on the planet, far more unhealthy and costly to society than heroin or cocaine. I can feel the little creepy public relations guys with the industry beginning to sneak about worried and planning the next move already. Personally, I say its about time. We need far more prevention strategies. Here's a couple of links:

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101101/Alcohol-the-worst-drug!.aspx (http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101101/Alcohol-the-worst-drug%21.aspx)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1118915.html

Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I love the Tirukkurral:

Chapter 10 on speaking pleasant words

Pleasant words, full of tenderness and devoid of deceit,
fall from the lips of virtuous men.

Better than a gift given with a joyous heart
are sweet words spoken with a cheerful smile.

A kindly countenance and sweet words
spoken from the heart are virtue's way.

Poverty-provoking sorrow will not pursue
those who speak joy-producing words to all they meet.

Humility and pleasant words are the jewels
that adorn a man; there are none other.

If a man seeks good works while speaking sweet words,
his virtues will wax and his vices will wane.

Words yield spiritual rewards and moral excellence
when they do not wander far from usefulness and agreeableness.

Sweet speech that is a stranger to pettiness
imparts pleasure not only in this life, but in the next.

Why would anyone speak cruel words,
having observed the happiness that kind words confer?

Outter harsh words when sweet ones would serve
is like eating unripe fruits when ripe ones are at hand.
And chapter 31 - Avoidance of anger

It is restraint that restrains rage when it can injure.
If it cannot harm, what does restraint really matter?

Wrath is wrong even when it cannot cause injury,
but when it can, there is nothing more evil.

Forget anger toward all who have offended you,
for it gives rise to teeming troubles.

Anger kills the face's smile and the heart's joy.
Does there exist a greater enemy than one's own anger?

If a man be his own guard, let him guard himself against rage.
Left unguarded, his own wrath will annihilate him.

Anger's fire engulfs all who draw near it,
burning even friends and family who risk rescue.

As a man trying to strike the ground with his hand can hardly fail,
just as surely will one who treasures his temper be destroyed.

Though others inflict wrongs as painful as flaming torches,
it is good if a man can refrain from inflammatory tantrums.

If hostile thoughts do not invade his mind,
all his other thoughts may swiftly manifest.

As men who have died resemble the dead,
so men who have renounced rage resemble renunciates
Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

Admin Note

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Thread under review.