why discourage converts to hinduism?

[Andeliani]

I have noticed many Hindus (and people of other eastern religions) often discourage people converting, and saying that all religions are true, I have even seen people call those who convert "fake" for rejecting their 'ancestral tradition.' Why is this?

Personally, it bothers me sometimes. While I think everyone's duty/dharma is to a degree contextual and thus there are many many ways, broad brushing every way and saying they are all right is saying then that there is no wrong way - and even those who do horrific things in their religion are following god established religions. The Mayans believed they had to sacrifice a person by ripping their heart out every day to make the sun rise, and some of the Greeks thought their sacrifices made Helios bring up the sun.

Also, I take personal umbrage at being told Christianity is my ancestral religion that I must follow - Christianity is centered around a human sacrifice and my ancestors only converted because they were forced to, and I think most of them never knew all the atrocities in the bible because they were converted with a "sanitized" version - by the time the bible was translated into their languages their descendants had no freedom to reject it. Anyway, I refuse to believe the Old Testament is a religion established by god... the god in the OT loves the smell of blood and burning animals, he commanded people to murder entire nations (the Amorites, Moabites, Ammonites and Canaanites being just some of the nations - the bible says - that Yahweh commanded the Israelites to commit genocide against).

[Eastern Mind]

Andeliani:

I believe there are just as many encouraging conversion as discouraging it. Some say you can't but I think they are in the minority. There are a few people on here who are converts, officially or unofficially.

Regardless, welcome to these forums. Its always good to get additional viewpoints. I hope your stay here is fruitful and beneficial to the development of your soul.

Aum Namasivaya

[sambya]

pranaam andeliani ,

just as you have mentioned , dharma to a large extent is contextual . there's no universally applicable rules of dharma for everyone and everywhere . likewise an average hindu believes that a christian is also following his own dharma and there can be no good in forcefully reliquishing his own dharma . but if someone has a genuine urge to take to hindu way of life and sadhana , i think he should be encouraged .

saying all relgions are true is not to be understood as saying all religions are equal to hinduism . most hindus also believe that hinduism is the best path .

[devotee]

Namaste Andeliani,

I am surprised as to why you need someone's nod to do anything that you are convinced that you should do ! Who is stopping you from becoming a Hindu ?

See, there is no sole authority like Church in Hinduism who dictates its terms in Hinduism.Hinduism is truly democratic in nature. If you adopt Hindu way of life, you become a Hindu, that's all. Actually, Hindus are not taught to try to convert any one. There are many Hindu organisations around the world who will accept you in Hindu fold. If you convert formally, you have wider acceptance in some conservative temples in India. I think EM is in a better position to guide you.

However, I have seen people expecting something extra which may not be the case here.

a) Please don't expect that a fellow Hindu will be very happy or unhappy by your this decision. There is no reward for conversion in Hinduism. People may not encourage you but they should not discourage you too. Don't expect any extra attention or any sort of convincing arguments from Hindus for trying to convert you.
b) You may find it difficult to identify yourself with any caste within Indian Hindus after conversion. However, this is only the social structure in India and not followed rigidly by Hindus living in foreign countries or the Hindus who have come from other religions. So, there is a huge society of such Hindus developed all over the world and you can identify yourself with them.

In fact, you are in many ways in an advantageous position vis-a-vis your Indian counterparts as you are not bound by the social customs and rules followed in a certain caste. On the other hand, it has no effect on spiritual part of your life.

c) There is so much diversity in belief systems, customs & cultures within whole of Hinduism that some people may behave in a peculiar way .... but why should their behaviour affect you ? Why should you be dictated by them ?

I hope it helps. :)

OM

[sanjaya]

Hi Andeliani. First of all, I do agree with you that it's illogical to say that all religions are equally true. Religions teach contradictory things. They can't be true anymore than a square can be round. And as you say, some religions like Christianity teach blatently immoral things. That said, as you say there are many who discourage conversion. As has been mentioned, there's no formal rule about this, and many Hindus are in favor of conversion.

Personally I think that conversion usually isn't that great of an idea. The fact is that culture and religion are inextricably bound. Hinduism is a characteristically Indian religion. Islam has a Middle Eastern flavor. I am a Hindu primarily because my parents and their parents were Hindus, and if I was born in a non-Indian family I'd probably be something else. In your case (I assume you're Western), Christianity is probably the religion of your family and community. Yes, ancient Europeans were forcibly converted by King Charlemagne's armies, but for better or worse it's done, and it's been this way for over 1500 years. It's one thing to reject the immoral parts of the Christian religion, like missionary work and the hell doctrine. But to convert outright might cause unnecessary familial rifts. I'm not saying you shouldn't convert. Nobody can dictate such a personal decision to you. And if you did convert, I would hope that the Hindu community would fully accept you, as they should. I just think it's beneficial for yous to weigh the consequences of your actions, because sometimes converting can split up families. Family solidarity is a central Hindu virtue, and unlike Christians we're not out to break up families. You don't have to convert to experience God, after all.

But then, I wasted most of my life until recently rejecting my family's Hindu faith, so who am I to talk about these matters? :)

[ScottMalaysia]

I have noticed many Hindus (and people of other eastern religions) often discourage people converting, and saying that all religions are true, I have even seen people call those who convert "fake" for rejecting their 'ancestral tradition.' Why is this?

There are some people (such as TatTvamAsi on this forum) who believe that you cannot convert to Hinduism - that you have to be born a Hindu (i.e. an Indian). This is not true - Swami Vivekananda said that conversion to Hinduism is "natural".

Also, Hinduism does not teach that only Hindus are saved. Everyone will eventually attain liberation (moksha), regardless of religious belief. Therefore, there is no need to convert to Hinduism to save your soul, unlike Christianity or Islam, who believe that only Christians and Muslims respectively will be saved. However, if you want to convert to Hinduism because you agree with its teachings and like its practices, that's fine.


Also, I take personal umbrage at being told Christianity is my ancestral religion that I must follow - Christianity is centered around a human sacrifice and my ancestors only converted because they were forced to, and I think most of them never knew all the atrocities in the bible because they were converted with a "sanitized" version - by the time the bible was translated into their languages their descendants had no freedom to reject it

What they mean is that Christianity was the faith you were born into and brought up in. You didn't have a choice in it then, but you do now.

Regarding your ancestors, they were most likely converted by missionary preaching. Christianity did not spread by the sword the way Islam did. After Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, the Apostles set out to preach Christianity. Christianity arrived in Britain through Roman Christians (although Christians themselves believe that Joseph of Arimathea brought ti to Britain). Remember at this time that Christianity was a minority religion, outlawed by the Roman Empire, so they didn't have "armies" with which to conquer and force their religion on people. So I don't think your ancestors were converted by force, but rather by the preaching of missionaries.

Regarding the atrocities in the Bible, those are in the Old Testament. Christians focus on the New Testament, which talks about Jesus Christ and how he fulfilled the Old Testament Law.


Anyway, I refuse to believe the Old Testament is a religion established by god... the god in the OT loves the smell of blood and burning animals, he commanded people to murder entire nations (the Amorites, Moabites, Ammonites and Canaanites being just some of the nations - the bible says - that Yahweh commanded the Israelites to commit genocide against).

By stating this, you've proved you're not a Christian, so don't worry.

[NayaSurya]

Forgive this lengthy reply, but lately I have very much struggled with this. It's already difficult enough to make this very hard decision which will ostracize you from your family, friends, co-workers...change your whole life, turn it upside down. Yet we do it, because we have no other choice.

Conversion is the only choice for some of us. we were born into a world we blatantly fought from the begining. I remember being 6 years old in Mormon temple...refusing to be baptised. They giggled at me and said I was afraid of the pool. I went through ten years of swimming lessons and still refused to be baptised. I prayed to God three hours every night, tears upon my soaked pillow praying to find my way home. Siva answered those prayers by making road signs in my life...directing me home. He say..."I will show you the way home, but you have to walk the path, I will not carry you."

The very core of Hinduism is constructed around each of us going through many incarnations to attain moksha. To be liberated from this perpetual Maya...illusion of self.

My Maya....is wonderful this life. I have beautiful home in a very exclusive gated community. I have every need met. This Maya is very easy to live with had it not been that my soul...the part of me that was a gift from Siva...is Hindu.

I can no longer live here on my hill and deny this. The easy path is one of inaction. I could live here forever, we have money, food and happiness.

But I would come back another life and suffer through this same situation until I could become strong enough to break out of this Maya and do the hard work.

My Kentucky attachment has been crippling to this process...this is a very good life. By choosing to become Hindu I cause everything to turn upside down.

No one chooses such difficulty for fun, conversion is painful...humiliating ...humble process. I urge any who would think otherwise to know that a divine hand is upon a person who would suffer such things to return to this life we knew...and will know again. Masha Allah.

I am going to go into how humiliating this process is.

A year ago I went to Hindu temple for first time. My 5'11, 200 pound body... 3 feet of platinum blond hair, I am sparkly like a diamond. Fancy clothes...rings...makeup...my loud friendly irreverant Kentucky personality I hug everyone!.....stood contrast before humble...earnest beautiful modest servants of God. I ...for the first time in my life saw my Maya.....this covering...this illusion of self. I ran away...far away to my peaceful hill. I blamed the humble servants for staring...making me feel uncomfortable.

But it was my Maya...my Ahamkara....the illusion speaking to me...urging me to take the easy road...give up.

A week ago I went back to temple. Humble hair braided...modest dress and simple ghau filled with the Gayatri Mantra and the Mrityunjaya Mantra.

I went back and cleaned toilets without telling anyone. I pray before Siva and tell him, I can do this...I will not allow this culture which I was so comfortable in destroy my chance to show Siva...I will not take the short cut this lifetime.

If that means others...many others will still not see me as valid member of Hindu community, I will have to learn to accept that. All that matters now is my Karma, and the destruction of this ego...so that I can be Siva's humble servant for eternity.

Do not allow others to break your concentration from God's will...Mother Theresa say it best when she say:

"You see, in the final analysis,
it is between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway."

Be of good cheer today, God's hand led you here...and this is a very goodly place.


Hari Om Namah Sivaya Priya Tamah Sivaya<3

[Andeliani]

Andeliani:

I believe there are just as many encouraging conversion as discouraging it. Some say you can't but I think they are in the minority. There are a few people on here who are converts, officially or unofficially.

Regardless, welcome to these forums. Its always good to get additional viewpoints. I hope your stay here is fruitful and beneficial to the development of your soul.

Aum Namasivaya

Thank you.:)

[Andeliani]

What they mean is that Christianity was the faith you were born into and brought up in. You didn't have a choice in it then, but you do now.

I think I see what might be one of the problems, people assume all westerners were raised as Christians. Personally, from my generation the vast majority of people are not raised as Christians. My parents are nominal Christians, but they know nothing of the doctrine of it and I was raised with the freedom to believe whatever I want which I always have... when I was 6 I realized it was ridiculous to say God had to look like a human and be a male, for instance.


Regarding your ancestors, they were most likely converted by missionary preaching. Christianity did not spread by the sword the way Islam did.That's not completely true. Charlemagne massacred Frisians, Saxons and others that would not convert. He destroyed their sacred oak the Irminsul. The people that died were killed in brutal ways. The Teutonic Knights were founded to convert the Baltic nations which were the last completely pagan ones in Europe. And once Christians became the official religion of the Roman empire pagans were often massacred... all the way up until the 9th century people in Laconia in Greece were massacred when the church found out they weren't Christians and didn't want to convert.


Regarding the atrocities in the Bible, those are in the Old Testament. Christians focus on the New Testament, which talks about Jesus Christ and how he fulfilled the Old Testament Law.The thing is, Christians believes the Old Testament is completely true and god given, and thus, all the atrocities were sanctioned by God. They might not follow the rules laid down in it but they believe is completely true.

[Eastern Mind]

NayaSurya: Thanks for sharing this.

For awhile I lived by the saying, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."

My parents were upset when I changed my name. They couldn't understand that drive. I didn't expect them to. There was no way I could convince them. They didn't disown me, but it felt like it some days. Eventually they actually even came to my temple one day. Mom asked if Ganesha was like Mother Nature.

I remember the day I walked back into the grade 4 classroom after a December break. 'Over the break, I changed my name. Instead of calling me Mr. Arthur, you now have to call me Mr. Murugan." Then I went on to explain to them how to say it and we practised a bit. They were incredibly accepting. This was in a K to 12 school. I put a public notice on the wall of the staffroom informing staff of the name change and why. They were far less tolerant than the students. I got comments like "Bunch of religious nutcases around here." One day a high school student said as I was walking past, in a condescending manner, "Oh there goes that Hindu guy." When I turned he had disappeared amidst the crowd. Similar things happened several times. But somehow the inner strength kept me going. Others don't understand this drive. I think its a lot like coming out as a lesbian or gay. In my familiy's case, I was made to at first that it would have been better had I committed a murder or been gay.

So yes its tough. But that sort of toughness begets strength of character. I remember one year I had a volleyball team of only 6 girls, as only 6 came out who actually wanted to play. After three weeks I sat down with them, and said, "Come hell or high water, I'm not quitting. It's in the rules we can play with 5 if someone gets injured." So we went around that little circle and each one said they weren't quitting. We lasted the whole year, and for once there was no whining about playing time. I felt lonely on the bench by myself.

Within Hinduism, I've had my veshti fall off, I've done tonsuring twice, been kicked out of a Hindu temple for being white, been stared at, made several cultural faux pas, and more. Mistakes happen. Embarrassment happens, but when you just know, from some aching part of your heart, then there is no turning back. You just do it.

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

We truly are of the same mind. My children laughed at me on Sunday when I said I felt I had "Come out of the closet". It's very much like this. Once out, in the light of truth...there is never a moment which huddling in the closet is a better life.

We must always choose light.

I have not had the fortune of having to break this to parents.

My mother died after battling cancer for 12 years. I knew she knew I was not Christian and I think it worried her. I'm going to tell you all something I never tell. It's one of my sign posts.

She was dying and seeing the other layers. I took care of dying people for many year and always meditated and imagined a gold light coming from Siva to me and then I would put it into the person suffering.

I would never have told anyone about this, because I felt crazy for doing it...but...the day came, when my own Mother lay dying beside me in a coma for several days and I call up to Siva and I send my entire energy inside to her and say "Siva if she must die, let her die without suffering." I nearly fell over, it caused me to be suddenly very dizzy.

I rose and walked down to the end of her bed and she woke up. Then she says "OH LANIE! What have you done?? You're covered in Gold Lanie, you're ...you're an shining angel!..your beautiful!" She call every family member in to see it...though none could. I never tell anyone that the color in my mind was gold..never could ever tell people how crazy I was to imagine sending "energy" into a dying person. But that day...I finally told. Tears in my eyes, because I knew then she was dying. Because if she could see...what I had only seen in my heart...then she was very close. She died the next morning at dawn.

We can not ignore the sign posts.
Out from the closet I have come, and will never return.

[Andeliani]

The board ate my replies. :(

Anyway, the idea that Europe was peacefully converted is not true. Charlemagne massacred Saxons, Frisians and others that would not convert. Many Christian "saints" destroyed temples and sacred pillars and trees. The Teutonic Knights were founded to convert the Baltic nations by Crusades, which remained pagan into the 16th centuries.

And, no, I really would not let someone else dictate to me how I can worship god but I still was curious.

Personally, I and most people I know were not raised as Christian. When I was 6 or 7 I realized that god had to be male or female, or have a human body, was silly. I've always had freedom to believe what I want.

[smaranam]

My mother died after battling cancer for 12 years. I knew she knew I was not Christian and I think it worried her. I'm going to tell you all something I never tell. It's one of my sign posts.

She was dying and seeing the other layers. I took care of dying people for many year and always meditated and imagined a gold light coming from Siva to me and then I would put it into the person suffering.

I would never have told anyone about this, because I felt crazy for doing it...but...the day came, when my own Mother lay dying beside me in a coma for several days and I call up to Siva and I send my entire energy inside to her and say "Siva if she must die, let her die without suffering." I nearly fell over, it caused me to be suddenly very dizzy.

I rose and walked down to the end of her bed and she woke up. Then she says "OH LANIE! What have you done?? You're covered in Gold Lanie, you're ...you're an shining angel!..your beautiful!" She call every family member in to see it...though none could. I never tell anyone that the color in my mind was gold..never could ever tell people how crazy I was to imagine sending "energy" into a dying person. But that day...I finally told. Tears in my eyes, because I knew then she was dying. Because if she could see...what I had only seen in my heart...then she was very close. She died the next morning at dawn.

We can not ignore the sign posts.
Out from the closet I have come, and will never return.

Simply beautiful. Thanks for sharing. Namaste

[ScottMalaysia]

I think I see what might be one of the problems, people assume all westerners were raised as Christians. Personally, from my generation the vast majority of people are not raised as Christians. My parents are nominal Christians, but they know nothing of the doctrine of it and I was raised with the freedom to believe whatever I want which I always have... when I was 6 I realized it was ridiculous to say God had to look like a human and be a male, for instance.

In countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, where religion is more important than in the West, it is assumed that all Westerners are Christians. If you say that you don't have a religion or aren't religious, they will assume you're Christian and are hiding your faith.

I remember in Malaysia, an Indian Christian woman came up to me at a bus stop. I was wearing a red tilak mark on my forehead. She said she was very angry to see a Westerner wearing a Hindu mark. I tried to tell her that my parents didn't know about Jesus and didn't bring me up a Christian, but she just wouldn't listen.


That's not completely true. Charlemagne massacred Frisians, Saxons and others that would not convert. He destroyed their sacred oak the Irminsul. The people that died were killed in brutal ways. The Teutonic Knights were founded to convert the Baltic nations which were the last completely pagan ones in Europe. And once Christians became the official religion of the Roman empire pagans were often massacred... all the way up until the 9th century people in Laconia in Greece were massacred when the church found out they weren't Christians and didn't want to convert.

Yes, those things did happen, but Christianity spread widely in the first three centuries before Constantine signed the Edict of Milan, permitting Christianity to be practiced openly in the Roman Empire. The Edict did not make Christianity the official religion of the Empire but simply ordered religious tolerance towards Christians.

The point I was trying to make is that your ancestors (from Britain) were not forced to convert to Christianity but were rather converted by the preaching of missionaries. Yes, forcible conversions did take place, but not until Christendom had established a power base and armies with which to force conversions.


The thing is, Christians believes the Old Testament is completely true and god given, and thus, all the atrocities were sanctioned by God. They might not follow the rules laid down in it but they believe is completely true.

There are a minority of Christians who do follow the rules laid down in the Old Testament (the 613 mitzvot), the same as today's Orthodox Jews. However, they are a minority. Christians generally believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament and that the OT pointed to Christ.

[Hiwaunis]

I have noticed many Hindus (and people of other eastern religions) often discourage people converting, and saying that all religions are true, I have even seen people call those who convert "fake" for rejecting their 'ancestral tradition.' Why is this?

Personally, it bothers me sometimes. While I think everyone's duty/dharma is to a degree contextual and thus there are many many ways, broad brushing every way and saying they are all right is saying then that there is no wrong way - and even those who do horrific things in their religion are following god established religions. The Mayans believed they had to sacrifice a person by ripping their heart out every day to make the sun rise, and some of the Greeks thought their sacrifices made Helios bring up the sun.

Also, I take personal umbrage at being told Christianity is my ancestral religion that I must follow - Christianity is centered around a human sacrifice and my ancestors only converted because they were forced to, and I think most of them never knew all the atrocities in the bible because they were converted with a "sanitized" version - by the time the bible was translated into their languages their descendants had no freedom to reject it. Anyway, I refuse to believe the Old Testament is a religion established by god... the god in the OT loves the smell of blood and burning animals, he commanded people to murder entire nations (the Amorites, Moabites, Ammonites and Canaanites being just some of the nations - the bible says - that Yahweh commanded the Israelites to commit genocide against).

Pranam,
I agree with you wholeheartedly! Ancestral Religion!!! I wonder where do people get this stuff from? I am more of an unofficial convert I quess. Actually I renounced Christianity after taking a class in college called, Bible Literature. I took a good look at what was written about the major religions and decided on what I thought then to be Hinduism.

My first experience in Hinduism was with the Brahma Kumaris. Although they don't consider themselves to be a Hindu religion (whatever). I spent about 5 years learning meditation, karma, the soul and the supreme soul. That was what it was but it wasn't enough for me. So I left.

Yes, I went through the whole family thing and talking to the church pastor. I won't bore you with that ****!

My point is this Christianity can't touch Hinduism. For instance, Hinduism has Adi Dev, Adi Shakti, prana, gunas, chakras, kundalini, mantras, aarti, The Gita, The Vedas, God in the form that is best for the individual. God as a loving mother, father and Guru. So much of Hinduism is actually scientific. You will get actual results from just practicing for a few months. You don't have to wait for a judgement day to know if you were a good boy or girl.

As a christian I don't remember hearing anything about the vices, and very, very little about the soul.

And that whole "ancestor thingy"??? Neither Native Americians nor Africians were christians. But now in USA almost all Africian decendents are Christians.

I was about to give Christianity some points by saying at least they feed the hungry and help the poor. But then I realized that it is due to there savage, brutal and materialistic nature that we have hungry and poor people, ie, one third of the worlds population consuming two-thirds of the worlds resources; growing food to feed to animals so that they can eat the animals.

I really do not care what anybody says my relationship with my God is my business.

Namaste,

[sambya]

namaste.
thanks eastern mind and nayasurya for sharing those incidents from your life . inspiring and profound !!

to eastern mind i must say , i have never thought being hindu was so tough !!

god bless us all .....................hari hari...

[sanjaya]

Wow, it's quite amazing to hear the stories of Western Hindus. I've always said that I have a good deal of respect for the Western converts. Converting to a religion that is bound to a different culture than one's own is very diffcult. I doubt I could ever be Christian or Muslim and replace my Indian culture (whatever little I have of it, being born and raised in the West) with another one. Western Hindus make a good deal of effort to adopt Indian ways of living. In more ways than one, I feel they know more about Indian culture than many of us born Hindus do. I have learned a lot from these people on HDF.


And, no, I really would not let someone else dictate to me how I can worship god but I still was curious.

Good for you! Unlike Christianity, Hindus aren't required to be part of any faith community in order to practice our religion. One can go to a temple and worship alongside other Hindus, or one can have no contact with other Hindus at all. Don't let others dictate your relationship with God, and don't let anyone tell you that you are disallowed from converting to Hinduism.

[ScottMalaysia]

Andeliani,

A word of advice for you. If you are planning to convert to Hinduism (which it seems you are), then you should make friends with as many Hindus as possible, especially practicing, religious Hindus. This is because that while Hindu belief can be learnt from books, the practice of the Hindu religion generally can't - it is passed on from parents to their children. There are books and websites that explain how to pray the Rosary or perform the Islamic prayer, step-by-step, but there are few or no resources like that for Hinduism. There is a step-by-step guide to offering puja (worship) to Lord Ganesha, but it doesn't include any other Gods (Hindus usually worship more than one form of God on their altars).

This is why you need to make friends with religious Hindus, so that they can show you how to perform the rituals. I still haven't done so, because I'm shy talking to strangers, and I haven't been to the temple regularly for quite a while. The small amount I do know about performing puja comes from watching my wife's grandfather perform puja in his puja room. However, I can't ask him questions about these kind of things as his English isn't too good. My wife and her parents know very little about practicing the Hindu religion. You can read the whole Bhagavad-Gita and understand it, and still be none the wiser as how to actually practice the Hindu religion.

If you're really serious about converting to Hinduism (and aren't married yet), the best way to learn the practice of Hinduism is to marry a religious Hindu boy or girl. Then they can lead you in performing the rituals and you can all pray together as a family.

[TatTvamAsi]

I have noticed many Hindus (and people of other eastern religions) often discourage people converting, and saying that all religions are true, I have even seen people call those who convert "fake" for rejecting their 'ancestral tradition.' Why is this?

Conversion into Dharmic faiths, especially Hinduism, is simply not possible. You are most definitely better off with your original "faith" as that is what you were born into. That fact is NOT an accident. This is rather paradoxical. The reason is as follows.


1.) What qualification do you have to be a Hindu?
--right off the bat, we can see you are definitely not a Hindu due to your lineage; this is of utmost importance.

2.) All so-called conversions that do occur, carried out by some "Hindu" organizations, are superficial at best. These are done for socio-political issues rather than philosophical and/or religious ones.
--Just because you say you converted to Hinduism does it really mean you are a Hindu?

3.) What kind of tests or purification do you go through for the conversion? For any other qualification, there are tests and other hurdles along the way. Even for a mere driver's license, you have to take a test. To become a Hindu, do you go through any tests? Such tests do not and cannot encapsulate being a Hindu. That is why you may have millions, and that is not an exaggeration, of Hindus who know next to nothing scripturally about Hinduism, but are Hindus in practice.

4.) And last but not least, if you do claim to convert to Hinduism, what varna would you be in?

As someone else misquoted Vivekananda, conversion to Hinduism is INDEED natural, but what he (Vivekananda) meant is it takes LIFETIMES for the soul to gradually work towards becoming a Hindu and burning all of the latent tendencies.

And secondly, I agree with you that all religions are definitely not equal. Most Hindus are just playing "nice" and don't want any trouble because these kinds of 'discussions' will only lead to arguments and rancor. What they mean, as someone else correctly stated, is, eventually these people who are not Hindus will be born as Hindus once they have progressed enough. Thus, their current faith is the right stage for them in this lifetime! This is why we don't want nor do we need converts. "Conversion is perversion!" Do you know who said that? Mahatma Gandhi!


Personally, it bothers me sometimes. While I think everyone's duty/dharma is to a degree contextual and thus there are many many ways, broad brushing every way and saying they are all right is saying then that there is no wrong way - and even those who do horrific things in their religion are following god established religions. The Mayans believed they had to sacrifice a person by ripping their heart out every day to make the sun rise, and some of the Greeks thought their sacrifices made Helios bring up the sun.

Also, I take personal umbrage at being told Christianity is my ancestral religion that I must follow - Christianity is centered around a human sacrifice and my ancestors only converted because they were forced to, and I think most of them never knew all the atrocities in the bible because they were converted with a "sanitized" version - by the time the bible was translated into their languages their descendants had no freedom to reject it. Anyway, I refuse to believe the Old Testament is a religion established by god... the god in the OT loves the smell of blood and burning animals, he commanded people to murder entire nations (the Amorites, Moabites, Ammonites and Canaanites being just some of the nations - the bible says - that Yahweh commanded the Israelites to commit genocide against).

Well, christianity is absolute trash; it has been proven time and again by the actions of its followers.

[TatTvamAsi]

If you're really serious about converting to Hinduism (and aren't married yet), the best way to learn the practice of Hinduism is to marry a religious Hindu boy or girl. Then they can lead you in performing the rituals and you can all pray together as a family.

I hope Indians don't stoop to that level anytime soon. It would be a real travesty to invite Varnasankara into your family. Talk about regression!

We are all better of with our own kind.

[sanjaya]

Yeah, Andeliani, you eventually get used to TTA's...discourses.


Conversion into Dharmic faiths, especially Hinduism, is simply not possible. You are most definitely better off with your original "faith" as that is what you were born into.

...

Well, christianity is absolute trash; it has been proven time and again by the actions of its followers since the presence of DJBOS (acronym for you know who!) ;)

I do have a question for you, if you don't mind. You and I would be in full agreement that Christianity is mostly garbage. But given that, why would someone be better off practicing Christianity if that is the religion they were born into? Personally I take the view that it's possible to extract the redeeming aspects of this religion and discard the rest. Would you also take such a view?

[Andeliani]

I stopped reading after this:
[QUOTE]
Since you westerners can never see life as multi-dimensional and consisting of "SEVERAL" lifetimes, not just one, conversion to the religion of "your immediate interest" seems paramount. Nothing can be more christian, or stupid, in other words; you people think since this is your "only life" you must grab whatever happiness and enjoyment you can, however ephemeral, and to hell with everyone and everything else; including age old traditions, customs, ways of life etc.

This is complete rubbish, many westerners, including myself, believe in reincarnation. It is a FACT that reincarnation is a part of our native faiths and millions of us stupid westerners grew up with stories about how our ancestors died, were reincarnated as different animals and then eventually were humans again. Some of them like Taliesen and Amergin and the original story of Merlin (I know, you will laugh, but the original stories of Merlin found in Welsh, Cornish and Breton are different than the French versions from the middle ages that are most well known) are very well known.

[Ekanta]

4.) And last but not least, if you do claim to convert to Hinduism, what varna would you be in? It is clear you are AVARNA now.
AVARNA? Perhaps you mean non-indians are Nirguna?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam all:

There is always a lot of truth in TTA's posts. Here are a couple I gleaned from the last ones.

Born Hindus (not all) do know a lot more stuff about Hindus not having read any scripture at all. Its in their blood as they say. When you start at birth, and Mother takes you to temple every day, you eat the food of Hindus, ar vegetarian by birth, etc. you just know. I know Hindus here who don't know the Gita exists or that meditation exists. But boy, when they pray with arms folded or make offerings, you can tell by their motions, their body language, just the innate behaviour that yes, they have been Hindu for many lives.

Westerners do tend to have egos, thinking they know more than they do. I've been at this 35 years, and did the equivalent of a Master's thesis in tests on the philosophy, just to prove to myself it was what I needed. But some 8 year old kid from Sri Lanka fresh of the boat so to speak gets it better than I do in some facets. It is a long process, not some whim of the day. Some think that the music of Hinduism is best demonstrated by Ravi Shankar. Still others think Hinduism is akin to Islam, classifying both as 'Eastern'. But the fact is it is incredibly vast, which myself and others allude to over and over again here on these forums. Our western world is permeated by a lack of patience, (a real belief in karma and reincarnation goes against that) and the right to stand up and be heard. (Humility of Hinduism goes against that.)

So personally, I never discard TTA's posts as some madman radical fundamentalist Hindu. There is lots of room for different philosophies and POVs here, and I appreciate Satay's allowance of it. I have no Varna. I am servant out there, doing the dirty work where I belong.

Aum namasivaya

[Hiwaunis]

Vannakkam all:

There is always a lot of truth in TTA's posts. Here are a couple I gleaned from the last ones.

Born Hindus (not all) do know a lot more stuff about Hindus not having read any scripture at all. Its in their blood as they say. When you start at birth, and Mother takes you to temple every day, you eat the food of Hindus, ar vegetarian by birth, etc. you just know. I know Hindus here who don't know the Gita exists or that meditation exists. But boy, when they pray with arms folded or make offerings, you can tell by their motions, their body language, just the innate behaviour that yes, they have been Hindu for many lives.

Westerners do tend to have egos, thinking they know more than they do. I've been at this 35 years, and did the equivalent of a Master's thesis in tests on the philosophy, just to prove to myself it was what I needed. But some 8 year old kid from Sri Lanka fresh of the boat so to speak gets it better than I do in some facets. It is a long process, not some whim of the day. Some think that the music of Hinduism is best demonstrated by Ravi Shankar. Still others think Hinduism is akin to Islam, classifying both as 'Eastern'. But the fact is it is incredibly vast, which myself and others allude to over and over again here on these forums. Our western world is permeated by a lack of patience, (a real belief in karma and reincarnation goes against that) and the right to stand up and be heard. (Humility of Hinduism goes against that.)

So personally, I never discard TTA's posts as some madman radical fundamentalist Hindu. There is lots of room for different philosophies and POVs here, and I appreciate Satay's allowance of it. I have no Varna. I am servant out there, doing the dirty work where I belong.

Aum namasivaya

Pranam,
I like his posts also. I think that he is just trying to protect the purity of his religion. Certain people have a tendancy to steal, commerialize and corrupt anything they touch. And if they are not successful in the above mentioned then they kill off the people. Afterall, look what happened when India allowed the last people (British)to live beside them.

I don't claim to be a Hindu. I don't claim to be anything other than a devotee. I just worship and pray to Hindu Gods and Goddess. I also follow certain Hindu philosophies.

There seems to be a difference between practicing a Hindu religion and living within that society and practicing that religion.

But just my POV, please donot marry a hindu just to convert to Hinduism.

Namaste,

[Andeliani]

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

Two things, though. I never said I wanted to convert and I do have some Hindu ancestors (from Kashmir) if that is so important. In any case, I would do what I want. :) All the Indians I have ever met in real life basically do not care about race or ethnicity at all and they matter more to me than someone on the internet, or some anonymous Ksatriya or Brahmin who thinks they're better than me just because of who their ancestors were... I've seen people post that kind of stuff other places when I know more Sanskrt, Paali and Gurmukhi than themselves (not that I know much) which proves how silly it is. Some have pure blood and think they are special, but they don't even know what "jyot" or "yasna" means.

[Hiwaunis]

I stopped reading after this:
[quote]
Since you westerners can never see life as multi-dimensional and consisting of "SEVERAL" lifetimes, not just one, conversion to the religion of "your immediate interest" seems paramount. Nothing can be more christian, or stupid, in other words; you people think since this is your "only life" you must grab whatever happiness and enjoyment you can, however ephemeral, and to hell with everyone and everything else; including age old traditions, customs, ways of life etc.

This is complete rubbish, many westerners, including myself, believe in reincarnation. It is a FACT that reincarnation is a part of our native faiths and millions of us stupid westerners grew up with stories about how our ancestors died, were reincarnated as different animals and then eventually were humans again. Some of them like Taliesen and Amergin and the original story of Merlin (I know, you will laugh, but the original stories of Merlin found in Welsh, Cornish and Breton are different than the French versions from the middle ages that are most well known) are very well known.

Pranam,
Being a devotee and "lovin it". I'd like to offer you some advice from my personal experience. Whether, you convert or not at least chant the Gayatri Mantra and the Maha Mritunjay Mantra if you don not already. Chant them regularly. Especially the Gayatri. I chant it at least 2X a day a hour each time (216 japas per hour). The official recommendation is 3x a day. Learn everything that you can about both of these mantras. Within a year you will have soooo much spiritual knowledge you will think that the Sun itself has dropped down on you!

I guarantee you will love it. If you want to take my advice I will even send you the Gayatri Mantra cd (This also applies to anyone else on this forum).

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

[ScottMalaysia]

Conversion into Dharmic faiths, especially Hinduism, is simply not possible. You are most definitely better off with your original "faith" as that is what you were born into. That fact is NOT an accident.

I'll take what Swami Vivekananda says about conversion to Hinduism being natural over some Christian-hating bigot such as you. What happened to "ekam sat viprah bahuda vadanti?"


--right off the bat, we can see you are definitely not a Hindu due to your lineage; this is of utmost importance.

Prove this from the sastras.


All so-called conversions that do occur, carried out by some "Hindu" organizations, are superficial at best. These are done for socio-political issues rather than philosophical and/or religious ones.


The word "Hindu" does not even appear in the Sastras, so how can you say that someone is not Hindu when the Sastras don't even give guidelines as to what makes someone a Hindu? You can say "He is not a Christian because he doesn't believe that Jesus is God" because Christianity has set beliefs (the Nicene Creed) that people must believe in to be a Christian. There is nothing like that for Hinduism. Nothing to say that a person is or is not a Hindu.


And last but not least, if you do claim to convert to Hinduism, what varna would you be in?

Depends what kind of work you do. Varna is determined by actions, not by birth.



As someone else misquoted Vivekananda, conversion to Hinduism is INDEED natural, but what he (Vivekananda) meant is it takes LIFETIMES for the soul to gradually work towards becoming a Hindu and burning all of the latent tendencies.

Who are YOU to say that you know what Vivekananda meant?

Andeliani, you can convert to Hinduism if you want to. Check out the online book How to Become a Hindu (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_table_of_contents.html).

[ScottMalaysia]

I'd like to remind the moderators of the forum rules, specifically:

No Flaming: Please do not post messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting to another member or guest. Please do not post inflammatory, rude, repetitive, or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize other members or disrupt the flow of discussion. This includes messages in profiles and signatures. Controversial topics are welcomed on HDF, however, do not post or create threads only for the sake of creating controversy or hostility. This site is for positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma. Please do not post insulting, hostile or negative comments about Hindus, Hinduism, India or Indians.

I feel that TatTvamAsi's posts are insulting to me, and he is therefore in breach of forum rules.

[NayaSurya]

I had a good laugh and a good cry reading this thread. This is the things one must hear to keep the ego in check. Thank you TTA for providing that<3

I have a story, another wonderfully humiliating one from my past.

I had a husband, he was abusive, had many sexual affairs. Thirteen years I suffer, maintained my dignity and did not stoop to his level. I raised six children...until the day he took my beloved child an choked him then threw him into a staircase. I stood between him and my child...stood my ground. One thing to beat on me for past life karma...another completely to hit my beloved child. I was taking my lumps for a bad past life and I knew this.
I fasted three weeks...it was unknowingly during Mahalay Amavasya...my liberation.

During this time I see a vision. I was a man, tall wonderful...strong. I beat on a wife, who I immediately saw was my husband in this life.

I sat for a long time working this through. I saw how horrible it is to cheat...to hurt that wife. I hurt him and now I was paying in this life for it. I vowed in my heart this lesson. Chaste..honorable...this is the only way.

Within two weeks of this vision my exhusband was gone. I became released from this lesson. I sent him on his way with my blessing. He went to jail for abducting a young girl a year later and I marry my soul mate Ron a year after this, he adopted all six children...and we had twins together giving us 8.

Sometimes in this lifetime you are given a chance to move on past a lesson. I saw this divine moment twice in my lifetime. Once when I devoted my heart to Siva, another was liberation from abuse.

Both times I was given the light to move forward. Do we anglo converts question this our entire life time? The fear of trespassing upon something we are not to know this time? Of course, always self evaluating!

But I say to this....God would not allow us to break through to our true identity if it were not our time to move forward.

I'm not going to change a mind, soften a heart with this story...but that's okay. Because I post this for the kindred kind...the others who know this story for their own....because we walk the same path.

I was Hindu in my lifetimes. I sat upon a dirty bank, the heat and smells so vivid ...the vast mass of people moving together down a dirt road...in the hot unbearable sun. I stood upon a post looking out across the sea of humanity and it brought fear to the heart that beats in this new body.

Something I did wrong....perhaps even something I did right....brought me to this life, this body and this priviledge place. I was allowed to bring 8 other lives into this world to share this time with me. Truly divine gifts.

We have a WONDERFUL time together, I can not see this as a curse.

From this place, only from this place of deep solitude high upon a hill alone could I work on the ego...

The short cut is inaction-not converting. The short cut is inaction! Knowing you should convert but hearing all these voices saying you can't...having to learn so much, being humble..making mistakes this is conversion and this is HARD WORK. Not short cut.

Short cut would be sitting on pretty booty for this lifetime and eating fat juicy Steak N Shake meals.... sitting on the banks of our lake feet in the sand and enjoying the ride. It sounds so good sometimes even I forget my place.

See? ego ego ego...

We have lifetimes and life times...who can say what will happen to the person who treats the anglo, earnestly seeking God....in a very horrible way. If I could say, it would be to suffer this same fate. Wouldn't that be so wonderful?

I didn't want to come back here in the first place, I was completely fine at his feet until I remembered ice cream and sunny afternoons, barefoot running through sprinkler...the first cry of my new born child....and the first time I hear the words "I love you".

They draw the soul back...over and over again.

I think the ones most concerned about anglo conversion are the ones afraid we will cut in line.

But I have to say, I will not get in a line...personally I am not worthy for such things. Siva is in everything under this manifested creation. Since I serve him...I serve you. He is my husband, my child...the bird upon the road. Only he can give me my direction. Only he can tell me to stop this...and he has urged me forward. The only line I know is service to God....and everyone is welcome front back and middle in this line<3

[Eastern Mind]

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

Two things, though. I never said I wanted to convert and I do have some Hindu ancestors (from Kashmir) if that is so important. In any case, I would do what I want. :) All the Indians I have ever met in real life basically do not care about race or ethnicity at all and they matter more to me than someone on the internet, or some anonymous Ksatriya or Brahmin who thinks they're better than me just because of who their ancestors were... I've seen people post that kind of stuff other places when I know more Sanskrt, Paali and Gurmukhi than themselves (not that I know much) which proves how silly it is. Some have pure blood and think they are special, but they don't even know what "jyot" or "yasna" means.


Vannakkam:

I never got the idea that you wanted to convert. I remember asking once about care facilities in Kasi, as I was at one time pondering dieing in Kasi if I ever got terminal illness. Even though I tried to word it correctly, all kinds of people just assumed I had been diagnosed with a terminal illness. I thought it was kind of funny. Maybe I could have played along and then claimed I had risen from the dead or something.

Aum Namasivaya

[Hiwaunis]

Vannakkam:

I never got the idea that you wanted to convert. I remember asking once about care facilities in Kasi, as I was at one time pondering dieing in Kasi if I ever got terminal illness. Even though I tried to word it correctly, all kinds of people just assumed I had been diagnosed with a terminal illness. I thought it was kind of funny. Maybe I could have played along and then claimed I had risen from the dead or something.

Aum Namasivaya

Pranam,
I think she was responding to the idea of her marrying to convert to hinduism. When I saw that suggestion it kind of shocked me. So I responded in order to offer an opposing view. But after some thought, I know people have married for much more worst reasons.

I know that I am guilty of not reading ALL of the post. Sorry.

Namaste,

[Onkara]

Blessings to all!

There is a lot of ignorance out there. People think there is still "me" and "mine" and that some how, land, tradition and religion "belongs" to someone. When we consider that we didn't even choose our place of birth not only our body or personality then things become a little more uncertain as to free will. No one can say that they know God's plan (or their future) so well that we are never meant to adapt or change. The proof is in the eating, because people do adapt, marry, change their religion, locations and appearance is itself indicative of God's will in operation. If God willed us to stay with one religion then we would, in the same way that the soul is forever bound by the body, regardless of gender change or desire.

The Truth of the Bhagavad Gita is that "I" am not the doer of my actions and thoughts. The truth is that Krishna resides in me and in everyone. That which stimulates action in nature is the three Gunas. That which makes me think that others "choose to do" and that "I am the doer and chooser" is maya, ignorance.

Krishna reminds us how hard it is to see through the ignorance; His maya. Some posts and even web sites also do a pretty good job of confirming that the most well versed are still deluded in the ignorance of "mine", "me", "you" and "yours" far from liberated. Thank God for this reminder, Se&#241;or Snip too is subjected to the Lord's maya.

When will the veil of maya be lifted and when will "we" see that we cannot be defined into Abrahamic or Dharmic or right and wrong, at the ultimate perspective of Truth. Truth permeates all. The truth which the Upanishads are adament to lead us is that we are all One, that we are more than a person with limitations of race, birth, caste and religion. We are That truth, Tat Tvam Asi, Aham Brahmasi. How can that be forgotten once truly known?

This is why “I” am devoted to remembering God, Brahman, with and without form; saguna and nirguna, whilst "I" have form. This is why I can read the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, The Sri Granth Guru Sahib Ji and the words of Christ and feel lucky to be alive. I praise my existence as being the wonder of all wonders and I bathe in the bliss of being and consciousness. If someone wants to give “me”, my form, or my post a name then call it non-dualism. Without limits in the limitless Brahman. Names and commitment to religions, such as baptism and conversion only help the searcher to steady the mind. The mind can be a barrier to realisation when restless. The escape from ignorance (maya) and suffering is the ultimate truth regardless of the words used to lead us there. One God created all religions and all worlds, how can any person or religion be better or worse in the non-dual Lord of lords. “Know thyself”.

[Eastern Mind]

When we consider that we didn't even choose our place of birth not only our body or personality then things become a little more uncertain as to free will.

Vannakkam Snip: Sorry to offer a different POV, but I for one do believe that we choose our places of birth both by consciousness following us into the astral in-between-births state, and by our actions in many previous lives. (karma)

Aum Namasivaya

[Onkara]

Vannakkam Snip: Sorry to offer a different POV, but I for one do believe that we choose our places of birth both by consciousness following us into the astral in-between-births state, and by our actions in many previous lives. (karma)

Aum Namasivaya
Thank you Eastern Mind.
It is a pleasure to have some feedback. I don't need to be right in everyone's eyes, so be my guest :)

Your perspective does add interesting depth of thought, for me. For example how can there be decision in non-dual consciousness as that would imply that the non-dual consciousness has parts, some of which have free will to choose. I would say that we are witnessing superimposure (Adhyasika). In other words whilst the consciousness takes it self to be an individual there exists karma and results of choice. Likewise in this state there exists rebirth. For one who's consciousness merges in Brahman (or Kirhsna's consciousness) there is no longer free will, but rather everything just happens i.e. divine will. There is no longer cause and effect at the indivdual level. I propose that this is what is meant by the end of samsara. Clearly existance itself continues after realisation, but not for "an individual" who was realised in this life.

This goes back to touch slightly on the OP in that conversion is not really a requirement, it is only a requirement for the person who takes themselves as an individual. You and I as individual are already the religion we choose to dedicate ourselves to, the realisation that we can be whoever we want within God's creation comes on reaching the ultimate goal (from a non-dual perspective). All other barriers were just mental or material and both realms belong to Brahman.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Snip: This hits the point of how I differ from Advaitins. I don't believe we have non-dual consciousness until we do, by reaching a certain level of consciousness, mainly self-realisation. The seers at that level do view things as non-dual ... all the time, and yet I am only surmising this as well as I am not there. I cannot describe the mountains of Lebanon to you.

From personal reincarnation experience, I (this individual soul, not the ego) has 'been followed' by others, and have followed others. So that is where my befief on this one is coming from.

So out here, in this state of evolution, where this soul is right now, it is dual. Only when we learn restraint, discipline, and head within does that slowly change. At that point, who even needs a temple?

Aum Namasivaya

[Onkara]

Namaste Eastern Mind :)
In my opinion you are already there... in non-dual consciousness! Your existence in my consciousness is significant enough to confirm your existence to me. I respect you as myself. If we were in the same room and someone were to insult you I would likewise feel the insult. How I deal with that insult might be different to "you", but only at the personal empirical level. This is where non-dualism parts and the dualism begins. So dualism exits in non-dualism, it is a "product" of non-dualism. It is in non-dualism that the desire for conversion or the rejection of others based on race, religion or background begins and can cause damage. It is in dualism that hatred, fear and lustful passion can reign (the Gunas).

Because duality exists in non-duality this means that I am able to experience duality. I can worship in a temple and enjoy sensual pleasure just like any other. Before I only knew me at the dualistic level but at the absolute level of being and knowing I am not "an other", at the absolute level consciousness knows itself as itself. The difference is that the foundation to all is not "me" but Brahman, Sri Krishna or Shiva Ji as the auspicious consciousness which is not restricted to prakriti and maya yet takes form through prakriti and maya.

At this point the reader may wonder what this has to do with the OP. My answer is that whilst we take ourselves as individuals, the body-mind is the anchor of that conviction. As individual bodies we likewise take ourselves to be open to conversion or rejection (discouragement). Knowing this is perhaps why Santana Dharma does not need conversion into it. As Advaitins and other Vedantins do not see Sanatana Dharma to be dualistic at the ultimate level then there is no reason at the ultimate level of understanding to impose that there need be conversion or rejection to Sanatana Dharma. What I mean is that you don't need a name tag, or any one’s approval, to worship Shiva or to come to know the truth in the Upanishads, you just need to be.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Snip: Then we shall agree to disagree. I am simply not at non-dual perspective. Not that I philosophically disagree with it. In all outward reality I'm not there. I'm on the climb sure. The problem I have is that it can be and is used to excuse behaviour, not unlike the Christians who say "it's okay because Jesus is with me,".

It goes something like this, "It's all God, we are of one consciousness, therefore it matters not what we do." Then you get people walking away from their families, and their duties etc, because "it's all God anyway." I view this as a philosophical mistake, similar to radical universalism where 'all religions are the same' is the motto.

But hey if you want to feel you are at the equivalent of a Ramana Maharshi, that's up to you. I just think one needs the duality to get to the non-duality. I am not self-realised.

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

This has been a jewel of discourse for anyone still working through this subject. In three discourses you just summed up very simply some very important Eastern philosophical ideals.

Why doesn't one who realizes they are a bit of God walk away from everything?

Several reasons...

Not all of us are so quickly wanting to dissapear into the mass that is bliss. Can any of this we experience here in this realm be known by any other way? Sitting up in the cold vibration of bliss...can one know of the joy of laughter? The feeling of pavement burning your feet and relief of the cool shade. Some see this place as pain...but I see it as a place to know joy from pain.

Another reason for not walking away?

Service. I brought back 8 pieces with me, they derserve the ride of their life. They are getting it. We are all the same, but these pieces I have a direct duty to...some pieces are here to serve others.

Most of those other vessels and bits are not realizing. Have to be mindful to help other bits move forward and not harm progress.

I am sorry to bring in other forms of philosophy here but I see this as a very Descartian and Kant conflict.

Descartes said...I think therefore I am and you are, and everything is. In my one view of this world I validate everything I see.

Kant says...I think and I exist....and I may even know you are...but as for you? Well, I am not going to validate you. You're going to have to work through it yourself...I'm not going to help you realize it...not much anyway:P

I like Kant's way of thinking. Descartes believed that just because he can view us in his realm..that he can validate us.

Kant is a bit more humble about the process.(pov)

He could validate you, and in some cases it's service to validate another.

But, ultimately this falls upon evolution of soul. To defy the body, lables and finally know your soul is the very God you are trying to reach. That inside this rotting vessel, this blown flower...God lives. Jiv Jago...well not so sleeping anymore:P

This piece dwells in the Aham. He breaks us off to serve.... to love... and then Maha ...to return to Him once more.

Aum namah sivaya


(and not here to validate..but both of you...being in your presence..this lil renegade Jiva of Siva is ignited!)

[Onkara]

Vannakkam Snip: Then we shall agree to disagree. I am simply not at non-dual perspective. Not that I philosophically disagree with it. In all outward reality I'm not there. I'm on the climb sure. The problem I have is that it can be and is used to excuse behaviour, not unlike the Christians who say "it's okay because Jesus is with me,".


It goes something like this, "It's all God, we are of one consciousness, therefore it matters not what we do." Then you get people walking away from their families, and their duties etc, because "it's all God anyway." I view this as a philosophical mistake, similar to radical universalism where 'all religions are the same' is the motto.

But hey if you want to feel you are at the equivalent of a Ramana Maharshi, that's up to you. I just think one needs the duality to get to the non-duality. I am not self-realised.

Aum Namasivaya

Namast&#233; Eastern Mind
Thanks for your continued interest. I am happy with the way we both are. I am not out to convince or to change mind sets or to prove anything to anyone. The OP caught my attention, and I wanted to take a moment to participate, that is all. What I do think is marvellous is that so many people, for so many reasons come to find themselves thinking of God and/or Sanatana Dharma. With it all inner peace can come. Isn’t that a wonder!

I am certainly not comparable to Ramana Maharshi nor do I strive for that ideal. I just try to remember God and recognise my limitations.

The example you give of reckless behaviour occurs from that person’s lack of clarity. Call it ignorance (avidya). For example a person can tell you that electricity is dangerous yet still they take risks with a faulty plug. It comes down to a) not understanding what causes us to act recklessly and b) not fully understanding the teachings to the point where it becomes pure clarity i.e. heart felt “realisation”. People don’t have a choice on realisation, but until realisation dawns they think they do have choice (free will) but they are still being driven by other forces, such as lust or fear. Those other forces include egoism, the three gunas, maya and other vices, most of which come with dualism and individuality in my philosophical opinion. Dualism strengthens the desire. They might even think “yep, I’ve got it, its me!” but it can still be an excuse to justify egotistical appetites. God knows the difference. This reasoning is perhaps why conversion into Sanatana Dharma should not be considered a desirable thing… it is more subtle and profound than mere desire for self-identity. (I am linking this to the OP).

Best wishes!

[Eastern Mind]

Thanks for your continued interest. I am happy with the way we both are. I am not out to convince or to change mind sets or to prove anything to anyone. The OP caught my attention, and I wanted to take a moment to participate, that is all. What I do think is marvellous is that so many people, for so many reasons come to find themselves thinking of God and/or Sanatana Dharma. With it all inner peace can come. Isn’t that a wonder!


I agree totally. I am happy as well. Argument is from the intellect, and the Self is beyond the intellect, so argument is a barrier. Hearing others views is not argument.

Regarding conversion, if you've read my posts, then you know my view, and I wouldn't want to bore you some more. I converted but by no means do I think anyone else has to.

Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

Admin Note

namaskar,

Instead of taking matters in your own hands and replying to the flames, in future, please report any posts that you think are breaking the forum rules. If you report a post, it will get my attention and I can then take an appropriate action. Instead if you choose to take matters in your own hands, it wastes everyone's time.

Thanks Scott.


I'd like to remind the moderators of the forum rules, specifically:

No Flaming:

[satay]

Namaste,
NayaSurya, Eastern, I find your stories to be amazing and inspiring.

Completely off topic but I wonder about what karma makes a jiva to be born in the wrong body and wrong culture. Do you ever think about that?

What happens to people like me who were born in India and to hindu parents. Now, I am here in Canada with mixed up culutre, mixed family, mixed up friends. Is this is a sign of bad karma in the past? Will it get worse in future lives for me? How am I connected to all of these non-hindus, non-indians that are around me now in this life? Is that affecting my conciousness in a negative way and thus will I not be born in Bharata again? Will I be someone in future asking the question 'why discourage converts to hinduism?' !!

[Eastern Mind]

Satay: The service (seva) you are providing by keeping this forum going should be sufficient enough to earn enough punya to keep you going along in SD for a few more more lifetimes, I think.

I don't see SD disappearing anytime soon, as its still available on the inside anyway. Pretty hard to destroy that. But still there are latent desires like being born in Iceland.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ashvati]

Satay: I think its part of God deciding to allow SD to spread throughout the world, not through missionaries, but organically, by influencing the world so that information about it spreads to where it would otherwise be completely unknown where people can hear and learn about it and choose for themselves to convert. Naturally, yes, there will be some who "convert" for the wrong reasons, like seeing it as something new and exotic, or because of a guru fad, or because of George Harrison (not that these things can't lead to a genuine, sincere conversion), but any who convert for the wrong reasons and aren't suited for it will get bored or realise its not for them and leave. The same thing happens with other religions all the time, and personally I think hinduism has more to get one to stay and to get them more sincere about converting than other faiths or belief systems.

[NayaSurya]

This conversation it constantly makes me cry of happiness. Sincerely.

These people need you Satay, I need you. How else can this truth be spread if not for those of us standing in two worlds.

I used to think I have nothing to offer SD, and Hindu culture.
But by living through this life, through the eyes of this vessel I have learned things I would never know any other way.

I have to tell you this..this is something must be said as it absolutely describe this situation.

When I was four I was very pretty lil girl. A little boy down road was 5 he was in Kindergarten with me. He was dirty...chewed on tobacco...ahh he was very southern rural Kentuckian. He follow me everywhere! Very very sincerely scared little boy. I was angry with him, went to teacher and say..he follow me everywhere, help me! She filled my heart with understanding about his fear. I never allow him to follow me again, I walk beside him.

We are to walk beside, serve, love...this is truly what you are doing Satay. You have allowed me to walk beside you...as I falter from behind. So grateful I am to you...my heart is full of this today.

I say truly ...the servant who understand that he is a bit of God, but serves nontheless....that is the servant beloved most of all.<3

[sanjaya]

Namaste,
NayaSurya, Eastern, I find your stories to be amazing and inspiring.

Completely off topic but I wonder about what karma makes a jiva to be born in the wrong body and wrong culture. Do you ever think about that?

What happens to people like me who were born in India and to hindu parents. Now, I am here in Canada with mixed up culutre, mixed family, mixed up friends. Is this is a sign of bad karma in the past? Will it get worse in future lives for me? How am I connected to all of these non-hindus, non-indians that are around me now in this life? Is that affecting my conciousness in a negative way and thus will I not be born in Bharata again? Will I be someone in future asking the question 'why discourage converts to hinduism?' !!

Well I tend not to ask the more metaphysical questions, but I do wonder about the issue of living in a Western culture. Being born and raised here in the West, I am hardly Indian at all, except for genetics and my being a Hindu. Actually one of the reasons I practice Hinduism is to maintain at least some semblance of Indian heritage. Since I dress like a Westerner, can't stand Indian food, and don't understand Bollywood, I am otherwise American. I cannot tell what will happen to me in future lives. But I know that my children will be even less Indian than I am. Perhaps they won't even care for the spirituality of India, and will adopt Western religions (God, I hope not!). Makes one wonder why Indians even decide to move to the West and raise children there.

And now for the surprised looks from people who can't understand how anyone could possibly hate Indian food. :)

[satay]

can't stand Indian food, and don't understand Bollywood,


WHAT!!!!



And now for the surprised looks from people who can't understand how anyone could possibly hate Indian food. :)

You are gonna get more than surprised looks for saying that... :)

[satay]

namaskar Surya,
I am feeling very embarrased at the moment. I am only an electron in the Internet space and you are too kind to mention my name.


We are to walk beside, serve, love...this is truly what you are doing Satay. You have allowed me to walk beside you...as I falter from behind. So grateful I am to you...my heart is full of this today.


Regarding TTA's comments, I would like to say that I didn't completely delete his post because his comments represent the voice of those that want to preserve the tradition.

Some people within Hinduism hold the worldview that the truth and tradition should be preserved and protected. That the truth is so delicate that if one is not 'adhikari' or 'qualified' to receive the knowledge then they should not get it and that they should not even try to get it.

Those who are not adhikari or qualified in this lifetime will eventually be qualified to receive the knowledge of the mystery in another lifetime. This every hindu believes even TTA (if I can speak for him).

[TatTvamAsi]

UNholy jesus! There have been several posts since my last response!

I had a hunch this was heading down a dangerous road; one that most of us Hindus have been down before. :D

First and foremost, I want to apologize if my post came across as hubris or "holier than thou". I really did NOT mean it that way.

Hinduism is so vast and so complex, yet so simple at times interestingly, it cannot be pinned down as A vs. B etc. And, thanks to the lack of a centralized position of Hindus and Indians in general, there is no one go-to-person or priest/saint to clarify doubts. There are many depending on the sampradaya (tradition). Hence we have seemingly conflicting ideals.

Anyway, I want to make it absolutely clear to the forum members that I am not talking as if I am some high and mighty Brahmin spitting on you mere mortals from Mount Meru. Superiority, inferiority, equality, inequity etc. are all bounden to the ego; of which I am not free from either. Thus, varnA and other sensitive issues always lead to heartache for somebody.

Despite that fact, we must always stick to the TRUTH. This is what is known as SATYAGRAHA (associated often with Gandhi's political philosophy). That is why I stated the things I did and always will. The examples and language used may be curt and even rude at times, but I am not here to cater to all sorts of fickle-minded fellows.

The fantastic thing, and I mean it in the real sense of the word, is that many of you claim to be ardent Hindus yet when it comes to lineage and the importance of gOtrA, you turn a blind eye! Why? Do you mean to say that everyone who is born starts off at the same level, at least spiritually speaking? That is absolutely incorrect and goes against Sanatana Dharma because it makes it impossible to explain the inequities of life; one is born into a slum in Dharavi while the likes of Mukesh Ambani, a few miles away, is building a BILLION DOLLAR "house". Why is this the case? Why should an innocent child; a representation of GOD, have to suffer through such torrid times while other children are enjoying themselves and are blind to suffering (physically at least)? Now, this example is only about material wealth but it illustrates the point. And, it shows two states of existence; hellish and heavenly.

Let's look at a more esoteric example such as spirituality. The fact that people are NOT the same, again, spiritually speaking, is quite apparent in the degree of difference in proclivities and predispositions they have towards religion, spirituality, self-discipline, tradition(s) etc. Is it a coincidence that Hindu thought and philosophy in particular were the bastion of Brahmins? The fact that 99&#37; of the rSis and sages, the acharyas specifically, have been Brahmins by birth? Is it a coincidence, that NOT EVEN ONE person in the western world has been enlightened, or was a rSi, or a sage in the past 3000+ years? Is it a coincidence that Brahmins, by birth, were tasked with the protection of the Vedas and the dissemination of knowledge (jnana)? When it comes to spiritual knowledge, we can clearly see there are indeed differences. Yes, there have been exceptions as there always have. However, this proves nothing. The majority of the rSis and sages were almost always Brahmin by birth.

Why is that so hard to stomach? Are you jealous that blacks can play better basketball than you as well? Or that Chinese are better at counting the abacus better than you? Focus on YOUR strengths and leave the philosophizing to the adults, I mean, Brahmins. ;) Now, if you are that exception and are enlightened, you are more than welcome as you have gone beyond any "Brahmin" on the spiritual scale. That is why jnanis have no caste! As always, the middle "class" (spiritually speaking), or grhstAs in general, are faced with these burdens.

And it is quite simple to define who is Hindu and who isn't: IT IS YOUR LINEAGE, LIFESTYLE, AND PREDISPOSITION TOWARD Sanatana Dharma!

In Hinduism, we believe whatever you do, you must do to your best ability with sraddha (implicit faith). Thus, even when one is a blacksmith, or undertaker, or butcher etc., one must burn through his vAsanAs (latent tendencies). This is determined by one's svAdharmA. How is one's svAdharmA determined? By birth! That is why we Hindus discourage conversion of any kind; whether to or from Hinduism. We would rather you be a good christian than a bad Hindu. If you were born a christian, muslim, jew, or whatever else, focus on that and in essence, you'd be practicing Hinduism anyway! ;) Conversion, or rather "outer transformation" is more like it, is very superficial and will only usually cause conflict; internally and externally. If one is really sure, goes through rigorous purification and training, a gurU might give you dIkSa. If that is the case, you would have been transformed from within and you would be Hindu. However, this is extremely rare.

The simple fact is your birth is not an accident. The jIvA chooses where, when, and to whom you are born. Thus, merely changing your lifestyle and NOT doing your duty (svAdharmA) can actually be detrimental; hence, we have the example of SambukA that RAmA had to behead. Many of the lib-left Hindus would say, "Oh, that's terrible! He should have hugged poor Sambuka! They could have watched MTV together!" Since you cannot understand the reason for DHARMA (duty), it is best to avoid passing judgment on it until you have that understanding.

At the end of the day, as Devotee said, who cares what others say, including myself? If you really want to adopt a Hindu lifestyle go ahead. Just be sincere and respectful of it. What I am tired of and despise are the many westerners who claim to want to 'convert' or become 'devotees' only to turn around and spew hate about Indians, Hindus, and Hinduism a la wendy doniger (a demon). In other words, you're going to have to prove to YOURSELF whether you sincerely and really want to be Hindu. Orthodox Hindus such as myself won't accept your "conversion", but that shouldn't be your concern. Do you know what "UPANISHAD" means? In kindergarten terms, "SIT DOWN, SHUT UP AND LISTEN" (so that the transcendental knowledge may pass on from the gurU to the SiSyA through the anugrahA (grace of GOD))!! I just find it very difficult to see you westerners doing that anytime soon.

I want to also thank EM & Hiwaunis for seeing through the verbiage of my posts.

Namaskar.

[sanjaya]

WHAT!!!!



You are gonna get more than surprised looks for saying that... :)

Yeah...I get that a lot. Often times from Westerners, as strange as that may sound.:dunno:

[Eastern Mind]

Sanjaya: So now I am wondering what you eat ... mashed potatoes, boiled peas, boiled cabbage, plain hot water, and everything else described as bland by not just Indians, but Mexicans, French, and italians as well?

Not watching Bollywood I do totally get. But I'm a westerner. The choreographed dance scenes and the older facial expressions on the moustached men are priceless, though.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Sanjaya: So now I am wondering what you eat ... mashed potatoes, boiled peas, boiled cabbage, plain hot water, and everything else described as bland by not just Indians, but Mexicans, French, and italians as well?

Well right now mostly those health food TV dinners. But on days when I'm actively trying to give myself a heart attack, Mexican food is always a good choice. I eat a lot of pastas too. When my parents realized that neither I nor my brother could stand Indian food, my mom learned all sorts of ways to cook noodles. It can be a bit restrictive with the whole vegetarian diet, but somehow I manage.


Not watching Bollywood I do totally get. But I'm a westerner. The choreographed dance scenes and the older facial expressions on the moustached men are priceless, though.

Ha! Yes they are. Don't get me wrong, Bollywood is always good for a laugh. And once in awhile it's interesting to see one of the many Mahabharata movies from the 60's, though it's hard to take it seriously with the lousy special effects.

[Eastern Mind]

Sanjaya:

We're way off topic now but what the heck?

Our diets are similar I bet. We eat pasta a lot as well, and do a lot of healthy vegetarian. I avoid white rice and white sugar. We don't even have any in the house. Rice and curry is about twice a week only. A long time ago we did a complete nutrient analysis. Other than white rice and white sugar, the South India fare is pretty healthy. You can make dals and the like without the spices.

I'm guessing you do not have a mustache. On pilgrimage, in the car between temples, my daughter and I played the game "Who can spot the guy without the mustache, or the gal without earrings first?" Sometimes the score at the end of the drive would only be 2 to 1.

Aum Namasivaya

[sambya]

Sanjaya:

On pilgrimage, in the car between temples, my daughter and I played the game "Who can spot the guy without the mustache, or the gal without earrings first?" Sometimes the score at the end of the drive would only be 2 to 1.



lol !!! hahaha . thats quite true . thankfully i must say present generation indian are doing away with the moustaches , so maybe in another 60 years it would go extinct for the time being !!

hahaha. sorry for venturing off track .

[satay]

Definitely. No mustaches here.
:)


lol !!! hahaha . thats quite true . thankfully i must say present generation indian are doing away with the moustaches , so maybe in another 60 years it would go extinct for the time being !!

hahaha. sorry for venturing off track .

[isavasya]

I have noticed many Hindus (and people of other eastern religions) often discourage people converting, and saying that all religions are true, I have even seen people call those who convert "fake" for rejecting their 'ancestral tradition.' Why is this?





Hello Andeliani, you echo my feelings buddy. There would be sanatan dharm or at least dharm around the world but for secularists and conservatives, who would like to see Islam and christianity or communist atheists every where in the world. One group gives poor logic that all religion are true (even the self proclaimed ONLY TRUE religions! ) .People like M.K Gandhi and congress party cunningly took benefit of this false perception in their jest of spreading Islam. The other group will give even poor logic, that you can only be born hindus, so they like to live in world flooded with muslims,xians and face their terrorism but cant see them being converted to hinduism.From middle ages to about late 19th century some fools had spread the non-sense that only born hindus are hindus, and thus Muslims and Xians thought it their sole right to convert Hindus by force or money.







The dramatis personae are the Malkana Rajputs in the mathura-Agra belt of the United Provinces. Long ago they had been forced by the Moghuls to convert to Islam. Yet they had retained their cultural distinctiveness. Swami Shraddhanand Saraswati saw a golden opportunity to encourage them to return to the religious fiold of their forefathers.The mission of Shuddhi of the Malkana Rajputs was a roaring success, notwithstanding strong opposition of no less a person than Mahatma Gandhi himself. Maharana of Mewar and Pundit madan Mohan Malviya rallied to the support of Swami Shraddhanand Saraswati. The movement gained momentum. Muslims could not bear it. They turned intolerant. One Asghari Begum of Sind, along with her children and relatives, requested Swami Ji to convert them to the Vedic Dharm.Swami ji accepted her request and admitted her along with others to the Vedic fold in March 1926. She was renamed Shanti Devi. The Muslim ex-husband of Shanti Devi fought a legal battle to take her away to reconvert to their fold but lost.





Because of his saintly character, courage and moving oration more than 18,000 Muslims returned to Hindu fold in some parts of U.P. alone. They also succeeded in reconverting a number of Hindus who had been forcibly converted to Islam during the Moplah rebellion in Kerala in 1920. The Muslims were upset, oddly though some Hindu Congress leaders joined the Muslim chorus in denouncing the Swami.


It was rather strange that the Muslims wanted to have unfettered rights to convert others to their creed but denied the same right to others to convert Muslims to the Vedic Dharm or any other faith


On 23 December 1926, when the Swami, after a serious attack of pneumonia, was lying in his bed, a Muslim by the name Abdul Rashid came to see him, asked for a glass of water and when the attendant went in, took out his revolver and shot at the Swami four times. When Rashid was caught and charge sheeted the Muslims collected a large fund for his defence.


And as congress and Gandhi were deeply hurt by muslims converting to Sanatan dharm, this was the sadist statement given my MK gandhi on the brave saint swami shradhanand's martyrdom -:

Now you will perhaps understand why I have called Abdul Rashid a brother and I repeat it. I do not regard him as guilty of Swami`s murder. Guilty indeed are those who excited feelings of hatred against one another".





Conclusion - More and more hindus in bangladesh,Indonesia, malaysia are getting forcibly or tactfully converted to Islam, and many by missionaries, My call to all true veda dharmis, let us spread our religion, by using the peaceful and logical teachings of vedas against biased teachings of self proclaiomed true religions, I personally have religious discurses with my muslim/xian friends and believe me if you will expose the verses of their scriptures, and show how they are self proclaimed true religions and how they send even good non-believers to hell, they will definately start thinking in dharmic way, even if not convert to Hinduism.

Hara hara mahadev!

[sambya]

thanks isavasya for the story .............hmmmm......

[NetiNeti]

I never really try to press hinduism upon others. My own "conversion" came at 14 years old. I feel that I was pushed towards the dharma by a cosmic force. Knowing NOTHING of hinduism, I found myself thinking about karmic reactions and the totality of God, which did not fit into my Catholic raising. When I finally saw a picture of Krishna in a book, I knew this was my path. I had no difficulty transitioning to the dharma even though I met great tribulation from my mother attempting to discourage me. I truly feel that if people are living a good life, they are O.K, and that their specific religion may meet their needs at the time. Conversion can be an overwhelming process, and it must be done for the right reasons. I did not do it to belong to a different culture, I dress in western clothing but conduct myself according to the Vedas. I know that I am not Indian and do not try to pretend to be part of that culture. I am always respectful when in an Indian home but never try to act like I am culturally the same as them. When I cook at home I eat mostly Italian food ( the food of my raising) while maintaining a connection to the sacred diet prescribed in the Vedas and Bhagavad-gita. I do not feel food must be Indian in origin for prasad as long as it follows dietary guidelines and is offered with love. I see a lot of western converts who seem to have done so in order to subvert their own culture and rebel against their own religion. They try and assimilate into Indian culture as fast as possible and care more about how they look then how they believe. This is bad for spiritual growth because you should come to the dharma for reasons of the soul, not reasons of the flesh. One should not make a show of their faith and constantly remind people of it. A lot of westerners seem to do this.

If someone asks me about my religion, (which they usually figure out when they see I am a vegetarian and do not wear leather) I give a simple explanation and that is all. If they have further questions I will answer them and maybe give a book. I never force myself on them or tell them their faith is wrong. If they want to learn more, that is up to them. I never expect someone to do as I did.

[anupj]

I never really try to press hinduism upon others. My own "conversion" came at 14 years old. I feel that I was pushed towards the dharma by a cosmic force. Knowing NOTHING of hinduism, I found myself thinking about karmic reactions and the totality of God, which did not fit into my Catholic raising. When I finally saw a picture of Krishna in a book, I knew this was my path. I had no difficulty transitioning to the dharma even though I met great tribulation from my mother attempting to discourage me. I truly feel that if people are living a good life, they are O.K, and that their specific religion may meet their needs at the time. Conversion can be an overwhelming process, and it must be done for the right reasons. I did not do it to belong to a different culture, I dress in western clothing but conduct myself according to the Vedas. I know that I am not Indian and do not try to pretend to be part of that culture. I am always respectful when in an Indian home but never try to act like I am culturally the same as them. When I cook at home I eat mostly Italian food ( the food of my raising) while maintaining a connection to the sacred diet prescribed in the Vedas and Bhagavad-gita. I do not feel food must be Indian in origin for prasad as long as it follows dietary guidelines and is offered with love. I see a lot of western converts who seem to have done so in order to subvert their own culture and rebel against their own religion. They try and assimilate into Indian culture as fast as possible and care more about how they look then how they believe. This is bad for spiritual growth because you should come to the dharma for reasons of the soul, not reasons of the flesh. One should not make a show of their faith and constantly remind people of it. A lot of westerners seem to do this.

If someone asks me about my religion, (which they usually figure out when they see I am a vegetarian and do not wear leather) I give a simple explanation and that is all. If they have further questions I will answer them and maybe give a book. I never force myself on them or tell them their faith is wrong. If they want to learn more, that is up to them. I never expect someone to do as I did.

great post sir, that was really inspiring.

[BryonMorrigan]

Just a few notes about history:

1. To say that Christianity spread primarily by missionary work in its ascendancy is incorrect. At the time it was made the official state religion of Rome, it accounted for approximately 10% of the population. Temples were destroyed, and people were threatened with execution for not converting. The only difference between Christianity and Islam on these matters, is that Christianity has better PR.

2. If you study the origins of Western Civilization and the Western "Pagan" religions, you see a pretty obvious original source: India. Now that many historians have discarded the preposterous "Aryan Invasion" theory, the "Out of India" theory is the rightful replacement.

Read any scholarly book on the history of Irish Druidry, for example. In many ways, what we know of the Druid practices of the ancient world were as Vedic as many modern Hindu ones in India today. Ancient Gaelic is more alike to Sanskrit than any other language in Europe, but even with other languages the Sanskrit origin is easily found. Unfortunately, thanks to the ahem..."efforts"...of those "peaceful" Christian missionaries, we have very little information about many Druid (or other "Pagan") practices, which is why most modern Druid groups use Hinduism to "fill in the blanks."

The Druids even had a caste system, with the word "Druid" actually corresponding to the Brahmin class. So, in essence, Westerners _do_ have a caste, of a sort...it has just been lost to us.

In fact, it was studying the origins of European "Pagan" religions that brought me to Hinduism. My mother is a Druid, but I just found it silly (to me) to be essentially practicing Hinduism, but replacing the names of the gods and goddesses with Celtic ones.

So, in essence, I personally think that there is a reason that most reputable historians now use the term "Indo-European" to describe the origin of Western culture. I also understand those who are wary of non-Indians converting to Hinduism. We Westerners have really made a mess out of Native American practices by trying to tie them into Christian or New Age thought, and for many, the ethnic culture of India is inseparable from the religion, which can lead to resentment.

But frankly, Christianity is a Middle-Eastern religion, as are Islam and Judaism. Historically, they are far more "alien" to Europeans than anything in Hinduism.

We Westerners, particularly Americans, have come to expect from Hindus the kind of reception one gets by converting to Christianity or Islam. We expect them to welcome us with open arms and say "Welcome to the family!" Thanks to the New Agers in the 1960s, many Hindus are shall we say, "cautious" about our intentions. They have a right to be. It's like we've shown up at the dinner table, propped up our feet and said, "What're we having?" without respecting the host.

So I look at those who say that I can't be a Hindu because of the color of my skin as a sort of "test." They are there to discourage the easily-discouraged. It's not my job to make them accept me just "because." They are fulfilling their own role in this. If it hurts my feelings, then maybe my feelings needed to be hurt. The introspection is necessary.

--------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, a good book on the history of the Druids and their relation to Vedic Hinduism is "The Druids," by Peter Berresford Ellis. And a good book on the history of early Christianity and its spread through Europe is "God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism," by Jonathan Kirsch.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Bryon:

Welcome to these forums.

I liken our caution as Hindus to open arms to new people in a similar way. In the late 60s, Rolling Stone magazine awarded 'best alternative instrument' to George harrison for sitar. It shows the ethnocentricity of the time, and much of that has carried through. So no wonder Hindus are cautious.

Besides that, we are not in the business of causing confusion or destroying families.

Aum Namasivaya

[BryonMorrigan]

Besides that, we are not in the business of causing confusion or destroying families.

Yeah, but the West is hardly the monolithic Christian culture that it once was. My mom's a Druid, and my brother's a Muslim, just as an example.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Byron:

Hinduism is very different from many religious lineages in the west. I'm not too sure about Druids, but certainly there isn't much common groun dbetween Islam (unless we're talking the Ammadiya (sp?) sect, and Hinduism.

Atheism and Hinduism don't jive. Just go back to some discussions here from about 3 weeks ago, and you'll see that. Western materialism is contradictory as well. So what I mean is that an individual, if they try to carry contradictory concepts under some version of radical universalism, they're confused. So why would we welcome someone like that with open arms? Its not the distrust or superiority complex, or some casteism, its more we're thinking of that individual's needs. We leave it up to them to clarify their own concepts, and have a really good look.

Can you really feel the energy within a stone, manifest in our sacred temples?

Do you really believe in karma, and understand that everything that happens is your own doing, and accept responsibility for that, and not whine about it?

Do you truly believe that reincarnation is a given, so you are a patient soul realising there is no hurry?

These are the fundamentals, and why Hindus are hesitant to bring others into the fold because so often when push comes to shove, the so called seeker or 'convert' doesn't asvtually believe in any of it.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

So I look at those who say that I can't be a Hindu because of the color of my skin as a sort of "test." They are there to discourage the easily-discouraged. It's not my job to make them accept me just "because." They are fulfilling their own role in this. If it hurts my feelings, then maybe my feelings needed to be hurt. The introspection is necessary.

I liked reading your post. Good points and it's nice to read something about european paganism.

Hinduism is mostly a religion of the individual. Even though there are many cultural gatherings like satsang, kirtana, lectures, discourses, yajnas and pujas, ultimately Hinduism is about your personal sadhana. Therefore most Hindus don't take to much effort to educate everyone and anyone who comes along, unless they know you are really serious.

Of course there are also racist and elitists, but I wouldn't pay much attention to them. Then there are also many Hindus who don't know much about Hinduism themselves. I see it as learning mathematics, because you can't expect a teacher to come along and "give" all his knowledge, personal effort is the key to learning.

[atanu]

Conversion into Dharmic faiths, especially Hinduism, is simply not possible. You are most definitely better off with your original "faith" as that is what you were born into. That fact is NOT an accident. This is rather paradoxical. The reason is as follows.

1.) What qualification do you have to be a Hindu?
--right off the bat, we can see you are definitely not a Hindu due to your lineage; this is of utmost importance.

2.) All so-called conversions that do occur, carried out by some "Hindu" organizations, are superficial at best. These are done for socio-political issues rather than philosophical and/or religious ones.
--Just because you say you converted to Hinduism does it really mean you are a Hindu?

3.) What kind of tests or purification do you go through for the conversion? For any other qualification, there are tests and other hurdles along the way. Even for a mere driver's license, you have to take a test. To become a Hindu, do you go through any tests? Such tests do not and cannot encapsulate being a Hindu. That is why you may have millions, and that is not an exaggeration, of Hindus who know next to nothing scripturally about Hinduism, but are Hindus in practice.

4.) And last but not least, if you do claim to convert to Hinduism, what varna would you be in?

As someone else misquoted Vivekananda, conversion to Hinduism is INDEED natural, but what he (Vivekananda) meant is it takes LIFETIMES for the soul to gradually work towards becoming a Hindu and burning all of the latent tendencies.

And secondly, I agree with you that all religions are definitely not equal. Most Hindus are just playing "nice" and don't want any trouble because these kinds of 'discussions' will only lead to arguments and rancor. What they mean, as someone else correctly stated, is, eventually these people who are not Hindus will be born as Hindus once they have progressed enough. Thus, their current faith is the right stage for them in this lifetime! This is why we don't want nor do we need converts. "Conversion is perversion!" Do you know who said that? Mahatma Gandhi!

Well, christianity is absolute trash; it has been proven time and again by the actions of its followers.

Namaste TTA

It is true that conversion is perversion but if a genuine western seeker gets inspiration to practise as per Yoga Sutra (under guidance) then how that is a perversion?

There are two sides to every coin. As long as I believe I am a Hindu, I must abide by all rules of Dharma Shastras. As long as I believe that I am a Brahmin I must be a true Brahmin. As I have moved away from my place of birth, I at least cannot claim that I am a true Brahmin. And there are multitudes of other conditions wherein I know I will not qualify as a Brahmin. As long as I believe I am a Khatra, I must be ready to protect the lesser privilged, even if it meant losing my own life. Same for all classes.

On the other hand, there was an English devotee of Ramana Maharshi about whom Shri Ramana said "Chadwick is one of us. He took birth in west to fulfill a desire of his". I think such cases may not be rare.

Om Namah Shivaya

[satay]

namaskar,
This post is on a tangent but I often wonder what roles 'desires' play into our current situation or current life apart from karmic debt.

For example, if one has no children in this birth, could it be because in a previous birth one was so sick of having progeny or perhaps pained by it that he/she desired or wished that they didn't have any children at all. So in the current life to fulfill that desire...no children are possible! But since there is no memory of the desire from previous birth we blame everyone else but ourselves! and the Lord simply watches this lila. Wouldn't that be amusing to watch from his prespective? :)



On the other hand, there was an English devotee of Ramana Maharshi about whom Shri Ramana said "Chadwick is one of us. He took birth in west to fulfill a desire of his". I think such cases may not be rare.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Darji]

Just that I would throw something out there, since I am an archaeologist and finally know something that is being discussed here on the board. If I come off as cross or not making any sense I apologise, I am finishing my book and going cross-eyed :crazy: So I will keep it very brief.

Since Tat is talking about culture being one of the main proponents of being Hindu, lets talk about culture. More importantly lets talk about my (and others here) Celtic culture as it was. Also to expound and reinforce what BryonMorrigan was saying.

I'm not even going to touch on christianity, lets pretend for the moment it never existed.

I will start of by saying the Celts are an INDO-european culture.

Lets look at this prefix for a moment. Indo-, prefix indicating India or the Indian subcontinent. Our languages stem from the same base language, and Gaelic (particularly Old Irish) more than any other European language retained and shares quite a lot in common with Sanskrit. Even the astrology of the Celts has been pointed out by scholars on how close it is to Indian astrology. There are a lot of similarity between the two cultures, because we are related.

Besides these similarities we also had a caste, as BryonMorrigan pointed out, a very strong and defined caste with four groups. A Priestly caste, in which the child of this caste was initiated and spent 20 years mastering. A Warrior caste, A "Freeman" caste which were the merchants and land owners, and finally the caste known as "Hostages" these were slaves, labourers, and un-landed men. As this seems to be a contention to being Hindu is what varna do you stick us rats in before our ship sinks, give us back our varna, you do it is for Indians that convert back from Christianity and Islam. None the less my Hindu friends never made a stink about varna. Honestly if Varna is so important, give it to us, you can base it on lineage (if known, I am lucky I know what caste and tribe my family comes from), or base it on our trades, or base it on who we are.

In conclusion, I know I don't know about Hinduism, yet, but I do know it is in my heart and has been there burning for years, but my fears kept me from the dharma. So all I can say is the fear controls me no longer and I can honestly give a rats patootie what a bigoted Brahmin has to say about my path to our Lord.

D

p.s.
Not to mention, who says being born in the west is a karmic regression?

[Eastern Mind]

namaskar,
This post is on a tangent but I often wonder what roles 'desires' play into our current situation or current life apart from karmic debt.

For example, if one has no children in this birth, could it be because in a previous birth one was so sick of having progeny or perhaps pained by it that he/she desired or wished that they didn't have any children at all. So in the current life to fulfill that desire...no children are possible! But since there is no memory of the desire from previous birth we blame everyone else but ourselves! and the Lord simply watches this lila. Wouldn't that be amusing to watch from his prespective? :)

Vannakkam Satay:

Here is a take.. it even has Canada in it.

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/mws/mws_ch-50.html

Aum Namasivaya

[Darji]

My apologies for my post, when I wrote it I was literally falling a sleep and the words were blending together. Although through horrid spelling and grammar, I managed to elude to my point.

In the end, it is opinions and everyone is entitled to them. I was just merely pointing out that the Celtic culture has a lot of similarities to vedic culture, not to mention Celts and Slavs are related to most brahmins according to DNA evidence as they all come from the Y- chromosome Haplo-group R1. Celts being R1b and Slavs and a lot of Brahmins are R1a, a difference of one mutation if I remember correctly.

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste TTA

It is true that conversion is perversion but if a genuine western seeker gets inspiration to practise as per Yoga Sutra (under guidance) then how that is a perversion?

There are two sides to every coin. As long as I believe I am a Hindu, I must abide by all rules of Dharma Shastras. As long as I believe that I am a Brahmin I must be a true Brahmin. As I have moved away from my place of birth, I at least cannot claim that I am a true Brahmin. And there are multitudes of other conditions wherein I know I will not qualify as a Brahmin. As long as I believe I am a Khatra, I must be ready to protect the lesser privilged, even if it meant losing my own life. Same for all classes.

On the other hand, there was an English devotee of Ramana Maharshi about whom Shri Ramana said "Chadwick is one of us. He took birth in west to fulfill a desire of his". I think such cases may not be rare.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste Atanu,

I agree that if a truly genuine seeker comes from whichever land, foreign or otherwise, he can be inducted/initiated by a real guru after the seeker is subject to the various purification ceremonies.


Namaskar.

[satay]

Admin Note

Namaskar,

Thread under review.