Caste System

[devotee]

Namaste,

The Caste system within Hinduism has always been a hot topic. There are conflicting views from even the learned Acharyas on this issue.

Question is who actually benefited from this caste system ? The Brahmins ?? If that is so, then why a large number of Brahmins are living in abject poverty today ? No land, no business, no power and set against all laws of the land against their interests on the pretext that their forefathers exploited the so-called dalits ... how much is it true and how much is it fabricated with vested political interests ??

Your views ?

OM

[saidevo]

namaste Devotee.

Some points from the article 'Understanding Caste' by subhASh kAk:
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/cas3.pdf

• As example consider the Brahmin caste. Books by Indologists routinely translate this into priest. But in reality priests have had very low status in India. To give the extreme example, the Mahabrahmin priests, who supervise funeral services, have been "treated much like untouchables". The reality of status is highly paradoxical; the brahmin is respected if he renounces his expected function. The reality runs counter to the claims of generations of Indologists.

• The word varna is from ancient Sanskritic theory and it has no real relevance; the word jati properly denotes what may be termed as a group bound by customs and traditions. The dynamics between the jatis has been influenced a great deal by historical and political factors. During the periods of economic growth, the jatis have been relatively open-ended; during periods of hardships the jatis have tended to draw in for the sake of survival.

• It is generally agreed that in the ancient Aryan society the varnas were functional groupings and not closed endogamous birth-descent groups. Basham (1967, p.148) suggests that the jati system in its modern form developed very late. The Chinese scholar Hsuan Tsang in the seventh century was not aware of it. As a response to historical events one might then credit the emergence of the modern jati system to the next fundamental change in the Indian polity that occurred with the invasions of the Turks.

• If one limits oneself to an analysis of the term jati, one would see that its implications have varied with history. Many scholars believe that the system of jati that we have now emerged only about a thousand years ago. If we accept that view then this emergence was perhaps a response to the catastrophic disruption to legal and political institutions caused by the Turkish invasions. With the destruction of the previous political order, different occupational communities created their own systems of justice and governance. In this situation, a local social structure developed which centered about the dominant community.

• Although jatis may pay lip service to the Brahmin as an intermediary to the gods when it comes to ritual, each caste considers itself to be the highest. If the Brahmins were to be accepted as the highest caste then other castes would have no hesitation in giving their daughters to the Brahmins. But in reality they do not. The Rajputs consider the Brahmins to be other-wordly or plain beggars; the traders consider the Brahmins to be impractical; and so on. In classical Sanskrit plays the fool is always a Brahmin. In other words, each different community has internalized a different outlook on life but these outlooks cannot be placed in any hierarchical ordering. The internalized images of the other must, by its very nature, be a gross simplification and it will never conform exactly to reality.

• It has been claimed that the castes are separate but interdependent hereditary groups of occupational specialists. Thus Dumont postulates that the principle of purity-impurity keeps the segments separate from one another. In this system each jati closes its boundaries to lower jatis, refusing them the privileges of intermarriage and other contacts defined to be polluting. Facts belie the Dumont theory: Indian Muslims and Christians also have castes. The eighteenth century German society was divided into princes, nobles, burghers, peasants and serfs between whom no marriage other than morganatic was possible. Korea and Japan also had the practice of untouchability.

**********

Brahmins have never been a socially or politically dominant varNa or jAti in ancient or modern India, although their advice was sought and they were respected. Surely, orthodox brahmins have always practiced--many do it even today--avoidance of tactile contact--not just with strangers of other castes but with their own family members--during the occasions that require extreme maDi-AchAram--ceremonial purity for their religious observances. This has been blown out of proportion by E.V.Ramasamy and his ilk in the political parties DK/DMK in Tamilnadu for their own poliltical gains. In reality, by their sattvic nature, brahmins have not ill-treated the dalits in public life.

The same parties today are unmindful to prevent for fear of loss of votes, the other Hindu castes openly and publicly practising untouchability against the Dalits in the Tamilnadu villages, by such practices as using separate tea glasses in tea-stalls, not allowing the Dalits to visit the village temple run by the higher caste people, draw water from the community well, and even threatening the dalits if they seek to field their own candidate in a local election to the village panchayat.

[kd gupta]

Namaste,

The Caste system within Hinduism has always been a hot topic. There are conflicting views from even the learned Acharyas on this issue.

Question is who actually benefited from this caste system ? The Brahmins ?? If that is so, then why a large number of Brahmins are living in abject poverty today ? No land, no business, no power and set against all laws of the land against their interests on the pretext that their forefathers exploited the so-called dalits ... how much is it true and how much is it fabricated with vested political interests ??

Your views ?

OM
Namaste Devoteeji
Certainly your question requires a good attention , but I have thought a humorous answer as Goswamiji describes….
Aisehu peer vihasi tei goi , chor nari jimi pragat na roi

Just as wife of a thief does not weep openly , I mean if you catch He , it will be called misdeed and if it is She then it will be Body need .
:)

[amith vikram]

namaste devoteeji,
i may be too young to talk abt this.
however,i guess someone has said that this whole varna/caste system is not free from flaws.in vishnu puran,there's a story:some sages go to vedavyas to ask the fate of people of kali yuga.vyas bhagwan says that shudras and women are blessed indeed!people of kali yuga are blessed indeed!a shudra,by serving with a pure heart alone can find his way out.so a woman by dedicating to her husband.in kali yuga,just by chanting the lord's name,people are freed from ignorance.
yes,being born as brahmin is considered as better janma,no denying that.but only a fool takes pride in that.the point is,the varna system is the best form of s/m on this planet.people talk a lot about equality and stuff.if there is any alternative to this s/m,i'd like to see.
i guess,we are trying to get something out which was never there in the first place.why do we kill/use animals?why do we ride on horses?thats really a shameful thing,innit?but then,instead of wasting time in trying to see the 'rationale' in all these,we may accept the shastras as dharma.
nothing is perfect and free from flaws.the only thing we should hold,i think,is 'karmanyevaadhikarasthe..'

[LALKAR]

Namaste All

Devotee G, I think you already know about vote-bank politices
It is all for votes that makes this system in wrong direction alive

Varna belongs to deeds, castes belongs ot politics

caste politices give birth right to reservation, it have nothing to do with social justice.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Namaste,

The Caste system within Hinduism has always been a hot topic. There are conflicting views from even the learned Acharyas on this issue.

Question is who actually benefited from this caste system ? The Brahmins ?? If that is so, then why a large number of Brahmins are living in abject poverty today ? No land, no business, no power and set against all laws of the land against their interests on the pretext that their forefathers exploited the so-called dalits ... how much is it true and how much is it fabricated with vested political interests ??

Your views ?

OM
I agree with you. But the caste system was not created, it is a misunderstood form of varna system which was created by misunderstanding.

[vsharma]

Even if all of us decide to give up caste system, the beneficiaries of the caste based reservation will not agree. Hence caste will continue whether we like it or not.

We have to respect all castes and treat all castes are equals. It will definitely create a new environment without any discrimination in future

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Here is a shloka about sAmAnya dharma, which is common to everyone:

kShamA satyaM damaH ShaucaM dAnamindriya saMyamaH|
ahiMsa guru SHuShruSHA tIrthanusaraNaM dayA||
ArjavaM lobhaShUnyatvaM devabrAhmaNapUjanam |
anabhyAsUya cha tathA dharmaH sAmAnya uchyate||

[forbearance, truthfulness, self-restraint, cleanliness, charity, control of senses; non-viloence, service of the elders, pilgrimages, compassion; keeping vows, freedom from avarice, worship of deities; absence of jealousy - are duties common to all.]

Anyone has any idea about the source of this shloka? I came across it in a Russian Website: http://www.sanatanadharma.udm.net/text/gitarthasamg.doc

[atanu]

namaste everyone.

Here is a shloka about sAmAnya dharma, which is common to everyone:

kShamA satyaM damaH ShaucaM dAnamindriya saMyamaH|
ahiMsa guru SHuShruSHA tIrthanusaraNaM dayA||
ArjavaM lobhaShUnyatvaM devabrAhmaNapUjanam |
anabhyAsUya cha tathA dharmaH sAmAnya uchyate||

[forbearance, truthfulness, self-restraint, cleanliness, charity, control of senses; non-viloence, service of the elders, pilgrimages, compassion; keeping vows, freedom from avarice, worship of deities; absence of jealousy - are duties common to all.]

Anyone has any idea about the source of this shloka? I came across it in a Russian Website: http://www.sanatanadharma.udm.net/text/gitarthasamg.doc

Namaste saidevoji

The following indicates that the above is from Vishnu Samhita. Similar Universal dharma prescription is there in Manu smriti and Kautilya arthasastra also. Some items vary.

http://www.hinduism.co.za/dharma.htm

[sanjaya]

While I'm against the caste system in its current form, I do have to agree with devotee that the current state of affairs in India borders on discrimination of Brahmins. Admittedly I've never been to India and can thus not comment to intelligently. But iIt's a bit annoying to know that if I were to go to India and apply to college, I'd be given less consideration just because I'm from a Brahmin family. Yes, there has been very real discrimination against Dalits in India, and this can't be ignored. But the solution to discrimination isn't more discrimination.

[isavasya]

Namaste,



Question is who actually benefited from this caste system ?

Your views ?


Namaste devotee ji,

Yes reservation system is not good for us, primarily because it takes away the rights of deserving people, also because mostly the cream of any community get the benefits of reservation, for example SC' OBC's get reservation, but generally real benefit goes to already rich members of these categories. I have a friend whose father got a government job long back due to reservation, and even he too got admission in a reputed college because of his caste, what a shame, the person was already rich and born in a rich family and yet got the special benefits. Isn't that undeserving ?

I do say give financial assistance to all , irrespective of caste. And also one thing I can think of Sc's getting something , but OBC'S getting reservation is what shocks me most.



The Brahmins ?? If that is so, then why a large number of Brahmins are living in abject poverty today ?



I do not agree with this point of yours, it is true that brahmins are not as rich as agarwals or marwaris, but brahmins are not so poor as to say a large number of bramins are living in abject poverty. In states like Bengal, UP, Bihar, MP brahmins were always one of the landlord castes. I don't see situation of a average brahmin any differnt from a averge Rajput or kayastha.



As far as exploiting people of dalit category is considered, then I agree with you, that it is absurd to claim that rajputs/ Thakurs and brahmins exploited dalits, no OBC castes and even rich dalits exploited/ exploit dalits as much. And even people of forward castes are not immune from exploitation. In fact the main thing is that the people who exploit are rich members from Forward caste, rich OBC and rich dalit, and the people who get exploited are poor brahmin, poor rajput, poor general caste, poor OBC and poor dalit. Communist Media only shows one side of the story.



when it comes to ritual, each caste considers itself to be the highest.


You are 100% right, caste pride is really pathetic, I believe almost all castes except very few take pride in their supposed origin, I have done a extensive research on caste system and I feel in reality most of people love their caste and have tons of ego. And even castes who are in OBC/ SC category are no exception to it.





While I'm against the caste system in its current form, I do have to agree with devotee that the current state of affairs in India borders on discrimination of Brahmins. Admittedly I've never been to India and can thus not comment to intelligently. But iIt's a bit annoying to know that if I were to go to India and apply to college, I'd be given less consideration just because I'm from a Brahmin family. Yes, there has been very real discrimination against Dalits in India, and this can't be ignored. But the solution to discrimination isn't more discrimination.


There is nothing called 'discrimination' against Brahmins, reservation is a system which discrminates against forward cates, brahmins don't even make up 1/6th of that population.


I have been active member in majority of caste related forums , each caste in India feel that they are exploited and everything and every other caste is against them, these people are living in paranoia , one should try to protest against system from human point of view and not from point of view of his caste. Brahmins unitedly voted for mayawati in uttar pradesh, just because she had offered some help for brahmins, ultimately mayawati did not do anything to 2 crore average brahmins of UP, except allowing some 50 brahmin MLAs to take benefits of corrupt system.





I think there are greedy politicians from each and every caste today, who will never let caste-ism die, because they have special interest in keeping them alive. I hope people of our country unite and kick away casteism, else India will never develop like China or some other countries and will always remain poor, the sad thing is our whole politics is based on casteism. Even in developed state like karnataka we saw how politicians actively banked on votes of different castes lingayat, vokaligga, gowda etc .

[saidevo]

Wipro chairman Mr. Azim Premji’s comment on reservation
http://bibaswandutta.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/wipro-chairman-mr-azim-premjis-comment-on-reservation/

I think we should have job reservations in all the fields. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this. Let’s start the reservation with our cricket team. We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims. 30 percent for OBC, SC/ST like that. Cricket rules should be modified accordingly.

The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST player. The four hit by a OBC player should be considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60 runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum speed of 80 km/ hour to a OBC player. Any delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the 100 meters race, an OBC player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also. Let’s recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which are carrying the ministers and politicians (that can really help the country…) Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the operations for the ministers and other politicians. (Another way of saving the country…)

Let’s be creative and think of ways and means to guide INDIA forward…

Let’s show the world that INDIAis a GREAT country.

Let’s be proud of being an INDIAN…

May the good breed of politicians like ARJUN SINGH long live…

“Education’s purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one.”

[TatTvamAsi]

Wipro chairman Mr. Azim Premji’s comment on reservation
http://bibaswandutta.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/wipro-chairman-mr-azim-premjis-comment-on-reservation/

I think we should have job reservations in all the fields. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this. Let’s start the reservation with our cricket team. We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims. 30 percent for OBC, SC/ST like that. Cricket rules should be modified accordingly.

The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST player. The four hit by a OBC player should be considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60 runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum speed of 80 km/ hour to a OBC player. Any delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the 100 meters race, an OBC player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also. Let’s recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which are carrying the ministers and politicians (that can really help the country…) Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the operations for the ministers and other politicians. (Another way of saving the country…)

Let’s be creative and think of ways and means to guide INDIA forward…

Let’s show the world that INDIAis a GREAT country.

Let’s be proud of being an INDIAN…

May the good breed of politicians like ARJUN SINGH long live…

“Education’s purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one.”

Namaste Saidevo,

Truly an excellent point made by Azim Premji. That is why so many Indians who were denied jobs and opportunities left India to find greener pastures. Hindu society is always meritocratic. The hack of a system in India nowadays is modeled after the British; complete garbage.

[Believer]

Thanks Saidevo, for the great post.
Having OBC doctors and OBC pilots serve the politicians will help India from day 1. ;)

[charitra]

Namaste Saidevo,
That is why so many Indians who were denied jobs and opportunities left India to find greener pastures. Hindu society is always meritocratic.

very much needed change in the hindu mindset, though came in a millennium too late. At least something very positive happened with the ongoing affirmative action or reservation policy implementation there. A talented hindu must go out everywhere and excel, just like the inetelligent european did several hundred years ago. 'Do not leave the shores' taught by our ancestors is not applicable anymore. Since times have changed, now the smart and hard working hindus must spread out. A global village dream then only can be realized.

[AmIHindu]

Namste,

Caste system is more advertised then a problem in real life. If we keep on finding negatives then we can not go forward. No nation is perfect everyone has some or other problem. Especially in West, there is so much of propaganda against India, even NRIs use bad words for India. They forget that It the the same land which gave them birth but Hindus forgot their scriptures and abuses their mother land. Do not forget we pray India as Bharat Mata. I would like say thanks to India for democracy that it allows to abuse India. We have such a freedom. This is we call Argumentative Indian. In court of Shri Ram also a woman had question Shri Ram about Mata Sita. Please read book by Amrtya sen - Argumentative Indian.

Below link, we can say that there was some MISINTERPRETATIONS in reading Manu Smriti which the bone of contention. Maharshi Manu never thought that we are going to misinterpret his writing. So it may be started at the small point but today it resulted in very big ADVERTISED problem and yes it is one way to make vote. Reservation is product of Ambedkar and Gandhiji, which is very bad, due to this only we HAD so much brain drain but at present time, people move out of India just no because of they do not get job in India but easy money our of India. Every Indian wants their kids to be doctor and engineer, there is no problem with that but doctors and engineers do not have respect for sweeper. This is not because of caste but it is because we never learned to give respect to all professionals. This is because sweeper makes less money so he does not deserve respect. Sweepers job is as necessary as job of doctor, of course sweeper makes less money but due to this we can not disrespect him. Rather doctors and engineers,as they are educated, should bear more responsibility towards community and society, but they indulge in hoarding and making tons and tons of money for their kids. So caste system is just an excuse to slap India and Hindus.


http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/891.html


http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3687.html

We Hindus forget our Dharma. There is no caste system if someone is in love, they do get married anyways. We have seen an example many inter caste marriage and inter state marraige. Tamil Marries Gujju and Mallu Marries Punjabi. So if we have love then there is no caste system but if we there is no love then caste system is an excuse.

[charitra]

I do support the reservation policy (FYI castewise, I belong to a forward/ open category myself). It is important that the poor and downtrodden should be helped through implementation of the law, and not the well off. The inherent flaw is that ironically the well off who lead better lives than even the forward castes get to milk the system in the contemporary scenario. Some more subclauses ought to be added and the reservation policy needs to be overhauled and regulated more closely to make sure por get the most benefit. Too soon to abolish affirmative action. Poorer forward castes must be helped out with financial incentives as well. Poverty spares no one in south asia, just like everywhere.


Namste,

Caste system is more advertised then a problem in real life. If we keep on finding negatives then we can not go forward. No nation is perfect everyone has some or other problem. Especially in West, there is so much of propaganda against India, even NRIs use bad words for India. They forget that It the the same land which gave them birth but Hindus forgot their scriptures and abuses their mother land. Do not forget we pray India as Bharat Mata. I would like say thanks to India for democracy that it allows to abuse India. We have such a freedom. This is we call Argumentative Indian. In court of Shri Ram also a woman had question Shri Ram about Mata Sita. Please read book by Amrtya sen - Argumentative Indian.

Below link, we can say that there was some MISINTERPRETATIONS in reading Manu Smriti which the bone of contention. Maharshi Manu never thought that we are going to misinterpret his writing. So it may be started at the small point but today it resulted in very big ADVERTISED problem and yes it is one way to make vote. Reservation is product of Ambedkar and Gandhiji, which is very bad, due to this only we HAD so much brain drain but at present time, people move out of India just no because of they do not get job in India but easy money our of India. Every Indian wants their kids to be doctor and engineer, there is no problem with that but doctors and engineers do not have respect for sweeper. This is not because of caste but it is because we never learned to give respect to all professionals. This is because sweeper makes less money so he does not deserve respect. Sweepers job is as necessary as job of doctor, of course sweeper makes less money but due to this we can not disrespect him. Rather doctors and engineers,as they are educated, should bear more responsibility towards community and society, but they indulge in hoarding and making tons and tons of money for their kids. So caste system is just an excuse to slap India and Hindus.


http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/891.html


http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3687.html

We Hindus forget our Dharma. There is no caste system if someone is in love, they do get married anyways. We have seen an example many inter caste marriage and inter state marraige. Tamil Marries Gujju and Mallu Marries Punjabi. So if we have love then there is no caste system but if we there is no love then caste system is an excuse.

[AmIHindu]

Namaste Charitra ji,


I do support the reservation policy (FYI castewise, I belong to a forward/ open category myself). It is important that the poor and downtrodden should be helped through implementation of the law, and not the well off. The inherent flaw is that ironically the well off who lead better lives than even the forward castes get to milk the system in the contemporary scenario. Some more subclauses ought to be added and the reservation policy needs to be overhauled and regulated more closely to make sure por get the most benefit. Too soon to abolish affirmative action. Poorer forward castes must be helped out with financial incentives as well. Poverty spares no one in south asia, just like everywhere.

What is the reason to give preference to a person who do not have qualification to do the job ! One student who worked hard and got percentage but he/she will not get admission because of reservation. Why do we compromise quality ? It is far better to some financial support to needy family. By promoting this system we discourage hard working people.

[indianx]

I've been reading an account of the daily lives of manual night-soil scavengers (it is as horrible as it sounds; some are even forced to use their bare hands for scraping toilets). It just disgusts me that we still have almost a million people having to resort to this profession just to survive, only for some upper-caste Hindus to condemn them for being 'outcastes' and untouchables. There was a report in the news a few weeks ago of Dalit families in a district being denied the right to work and earn a living wage because some of them dared to step foot inside a village temple to offer prasadam to the deity. There are a great number of temples across India to which Dalits are barred entry. These are just a few of the unimaginable social ills that plague lower-caste Hindus.

I just can't fathom how we can allow these practices to continue. I know that many of us oppose the caste system and caste discrimination, but why aren't we being more vociferous in our opposition? Why aren't Hindu organizations raising hue and cry about these issues and condemning those so-called Hindus who deny their brothers in faith their basic human rights? Fighting for equality among Hindu communities should be our first and most important duty.

Every other issue pales into nothingness in comparison to the suffering faced by Dalits. Is it any wonder that so many of them choose to convert? Just place yourself in their position. They're being told by upper-caste Hindus that they're at the bottom of Hindu society and that their lot in life is in some sense due to their karmic debt. They aren't even allowed to enter their own temples to practice their faith as Hindus. Honestly, given all these things, what solace can they find in the perverted form of Hinduism that is presented to them? I say perverted because it is not reflective of the Hindu values of oneness, ahimsa, bhakti, and equality that most of us cherish.

We need to start working and do everything we can for reform to empower the lower castes and to eradicate these despicable practices.