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View Full Version : IS AGE AN ISSUE?!! WHY DISCOURAGE US YOUNGSTERS?



upsydownyupsy mv ss
30 March 2010, 11:43 AM
:mad:I often hear people saying to me, 'This is not the age to think about god and meta physics stuff. You'll have a lot of time when you are old'. How many of you agree with this? I don't. I think spirituality is good for all ages and must be taught in schools from a tender age, because I feel the tender minds can absorb it easily. Many people who had achieved great feats achieved them at a tender age, right? I need comments and discussions on this matter please:eek::headscratch:. By the way, this is my first post after days and days trying to figure out how to post a new message:laugh:.

Eastern Mind
30 March 2010, 12:18 PM
Vannakkam upsy:

I don't think anyone would discourage you or anyone else simply because of age alone. After all, we really don't know soul age by chronological age. I am a retired teacher and always took the stance that the students could each teach me a thing or two. And often they did, in part because I had that stance.

On the other hand, ignorance is not just the monopoly of the senile. It can happen to anyone, some of us more than others. So I think it depends on tone a lot: how questions are asked, what level of cynicism or pride is hidden within the words.

We have a lot of youngsters on this forum who speak very wise words.

So welcome and have at it. Only time will tell how others view you. I think you yourself may have jumped to a bit of a conclusion there.

Aum Namasivaya

sambya
30 March 2010, 12:19 PM
thank god you have understood the basic fact yourself , without anyones help . be deaf to what the idiots say and strive hard for god .

here's what ramakrishna paramahamsa had to say in this respect --
" if a parrot is not taught raam - naam throughout its life can it be taught once it grows old ?!! no . it has to be taught from childhood . "

dont worry about what people say . its all the same everywhere . its like being stuck inside the well of material existence . the moment they see one of them trying to get up , they all join in unison to pull you down . this shall continue throughout your life .

pray to god to help you not get trapped in maya .

sambya
30 March 2010, 12:31 PM
Vannakkam upsy:

I don't think anyone would discourage you or anyone else simply because of age alone. After all, we really don't know soul age by chronological age. I am a retired teacher and always took the stance that the students could each teach me a thing or two. And often they did, in part because I had that stance.

On the other hand, ignorance is not just the monopoly of the senile. It can happen to anyone, some of us more than others. So I think it depends on tone a lot: how questions are asked, what level of cynicism or pride is hidden within the words.

We have a lot of youngsters on this forum who speak very wise words.

So welcome and have at it. Only time will tell how others view you. I think you yourself may have jumped to a bit of a conclusion there.

Aum Namasivaya

hello eastern . actually what the original poster is saying seems to be quite a problem in indian societies . although im not sure whether he's from india or not .

since childhood i have heard comments like " why should you be doing all these puja-path now ? thats the job of grandmaas and grandfathers . now you should study , marry and settle in life "


just last month when i was travelling by train to haridwar i met with a young copassenger(of same age as me) who asked for some songs which i had in my handset ( mobile phone ) to be transferred to his through bluetooth faclity . as i was doing that i asked if he would like some bhajans ? to this he gave the oft heard reply " bhajans at this age ? i shall take them once i grow a bit more older ! " .

similar things have happened to most of my spritually incined friends too .
actually a decent living and a happy marraige with a stable family is what most indians consider the end of the world !! hahaha . hence there is this conception that dharma is for old age .
or maybe this conception is a remnant of now extinct vanaprastha system where elders went to forest during there their last years .

saidevo
30 March 2010, 12:35 PM
namaste upsy.

You will always have your spiritual abilities acquired in the earlier births to start with. This will be known to you at the right time by personal hints of wisdom.

The point is, most Hindu elders are laukika--worldly, finding no time in their daily routine to read Hindu metaphysical truths, so they tend to discourage others. In fact, in the very first Ashram of Hindu life--brahmachArya--the young student was taught the Vedas, UpaniShads and other Hindu secular literature like KAvyas and NATakas in our old gurukula system, so age is certainly no bar to learn the higher truths.

It's really good that while most young people take to video games, movies and other such entertainment stuff, you want to learn the Hindu metaphysics. The HDF is a good place to interact. Welcome, and keep learning with us by interaction.

satay
30 March 2010, 01:35 PM
namaste sambya,


since childhood i have heard comments like " why should you be doing all these puja-path now ? thats the job of grandmaas and grandfathers . now you should study , marry and settle in life "



Yes, I have heard that too. See if we look at it from the parents point of view or elders' pov, they are right too. The thing is from teen age to sixty or so is supposed to be grishta ashram. A person is supposed to be doing his duty to the 'society' by working, getting married and having children. If you are too attached to God during this time there is a danger of becoming a split personality and for confusion. Isn't it? I think this is why parents or elders usually discourage youngesters to get into this.

I am not saying that I agree with their pov but I think that's what their reasoning is. Anyway, for people like me who are not living in India I think we have to and we must expose our children to God in general and to hinduism in particular at an early age.

2 cents.

sanjaya
30 March 2010, 02:15 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure where this idea comes from. My parents have taught me about Hindu spirituality for as long as I can remember. It's true there are certain things we should be doing in every stage of life. But what's the point of life without God?

Granted, as Satay said, there's a danger of becoming a bit too religious. I think we can all agree that zealotry is never a good idea.

smaranam
30 March 2010, 04:36 PM
Namaste

My aunt gifted the Bhagavad Gita to me. I was elated and waiting to read it. Then immediately after had to travel somewhere and it was missing. There were many other things on the mind , and appearantly someone had borrowed it to read - or i forgot to take it with me.
It was much later that i accidentally found it in a closet.

I asked my mother why did she not tell me ? She said something i don't remember, but i got the feeling that even after she discovered it, she did not think it was important to tell me that my Gita was found.

She is a devoted person , and always made our faith strong, but not exactly a Gita fan. I think at the time she believed it was not good for young people to read the Gita, lest they get 'influenced' by it.

Eastern Mind
30 March 2010, 05:57 PM
Smaranam, Satay, et al: So why the parental sadness, or almost disdain for a person wanting to renounce the world, delve within, and seek the Self-God? Why is grihastha dharma so important. I'd think I'd be grateful if one of my children wanted to turn inward to yoga? What are the historical factors here? I personally even pray for the opportunity in the next lifetime to hear about the choice before puberty. What is it about sannyasins that is seemingly so disdainful? Did the Brits or Christians do another number? Is it the stronf family attachment, and Mom just not wanting to let her little boy go?

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
30 March 2010, 07:57 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté

ādi śaṅkara was born ~ 650 CE ( now there are others with different dates, but let's go with this one).
At the age of 2 it is said hew could speak, read and write saṃskṛt; He wrote his first book at the age of 7; It is said by 8 years of age he mastered the veda-s.

Such for youth that is blessed.

praṇām

saidevo
30 March 2010, 08:38 PM
namaste Yajvan.

According to KAnchi ParamAchArya, the Shankara MaThams at KAnchi, DvAraka, and Puri have records to show that the date of Adi Shankara was 590-477 BCE. The 'Orientalists' have put his date to 788-820 CE, which is the date our children read in the history books in India ruled by a pseudo-secular government. A rarely mentioned, third opinion, cites his date as 44-12 BCE.

Thus, I have not come across the date 650 CE. Since you say, 'let us go with this one', may I know the source of your information as to this date?

yajvan
30 March 2010, 09:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté saidevo.




According to KAnchi ParamAchArya, the Shankara MaThams at KAnchi, DvAraka, and Puri have records to show that the date of Adi Shankara was 590-477 BCE. The 'Orientalists' have put his date to 788-820 CE, which is the date our children read in the history books in India ruled by a pseudo-secular government. A rarely mentioned, third opinion, cites his date as 44-12 BCE.
Thus, I have not come across the date 650 CE. Since you say, 'let us go with this one', may I know the source of your information as to this



Yes, I have read the date you offer, and a few other dates:

590-477 BCE
788-820 CE
Also 508-476 BCE ( this would make ādi śaṅkara a contemporary of buddha, no?)
Another between 700-750 CE,
The one I offered of 650 ( to 700) CE.
Another is an astrological calculation that pins the date at 805 CE - from T.S. Narayaya Sastri, Age of Śaṅkara, page 223Please note that I am not a proponent ( or defender) of any one date or the other as I do not have personal knowledge or confident knowledge of any of them.

I have read G.C. Pande¹ proposes this date of 650 to 700 as reasonable. It was his analysis from the darśana-prakaśa¹ ; It is said this work quotes the śaṅkarāpaddhati, calling out that śaṅkarā-ji was born 686 CE and died in the śaka (a year of any era) of 642 which = 720 CE , so say the experts ( that would not be me).

Another data point I have read was śaṅkarā-ji was born in the 14th year of king Vikramāditya. Now if this king was the son of Pulakesin II śaṅkara-ji's dates would be 688-700 CE birth.

praṇām

references:
1. Who is G.C. Pande ? http://www.phispc.nic.in/gcp_resume.htm (http://www.phispc.nic.in/gcp_resume.htm) ; One of G.C. Pande's books, Life and thought of Śaṅkarācarāya, page 52

satay
30 March 2010, 10:30 PM
namaste,
I can't be sure but let's think about this for a minute... If everyone wanted to renounce the world...what will happen to the society structure? There are after all four stages of life for a regular joe like me.

I don't know about other parents but I can say at least for my father that he will not be happy if I decided to pull the 'buddha' on my family tonight. Imagine I walk out on my wife, daughter, parents, friends, job etc. and disappear to sit under a tree to meditate. I don't think that would be very responsible of me. My duty right now is towards those that need my support.

Now, imagine if everyone walked out on their families who will support the society?

Of course, once all the house holder duties are done with, the next stage is vanaprasta and then sanyasa.

Just my opinion but I don't think hinduism in general encourages one to jump right to sanyasa. There are four stages of life. It is our duty or dharma to do good in all of those four stages. I don't think the regular joes like me should jump to sanyasa directly (for so many reasons...).

Also, there is something called 'pitr ryn' i.e. debt to the ancestors. That debt is to produce children so the lineage can continue. If one jumps directly to sanyasa, who will pay the debt to the ancestors?

The parents' thinking is that when in gristha ashram, we should concentrate on that. Yes, perform puja, do yagya, read sastra but the first duty is to towards the ashrama that we are in i.e. support and provide for the family is the right action for my age.

Of course, as you know my family is khsatriya varna so their thinking might be different from that of a brahmin family.

Would be an interesting experiment if a young member told their parents that they are contemplating renoucing the world within the next few months. I would be interested to know the reaction of the parents. I know what my parents reaction would be... :)


Smaranam, Satay, et al: So why the parental sadness, or almost disdain for a person wanting to renounce the world, delve within, and seek the Self-God? Why is grihastha dharma so important. I'd think I'd be grateful if one of my children wanted to turn inward to yoga? What are the historical factors here? I personally even pray for the opportunity in the next lifetime to hear about the choice before puberty. What is it about sannyasins that is seemingly so disdainful? Did the Brits or Christians do another number? Is it the stronf family attachment, and Mom just not wanting to let her little boy go?

Aum Namasivaya

Andeliani
30 March 2010, 10:51 PM
People that say to wait until you are older are ignorant, we have no idea how long we are going to live and to assume we will reach a certain age is folly.

satay
30 March 2010, 11:59 PM
namaskar,


People that say to wait until you are older are ignorant,

Perhaps.

If you die young e.g. in grihasta ashram, isn't there another life? What's the rush? Why forget all your other duties and jump to sanyas? Isn't that being selfish?


(playing devil's advocate)

sambya
31 March 2010, 02:40 AM
well , its true that its unwise to rush to sannyasa . sannyasa , like spirituality is totally based on adhikaar(competency) and any hurry to rush the process is bound to end in disaster . i remember a nice example from ramakrishna---" if you try to pull the scab off the wound forcefully it is bound to result in bleeding . but once it heals and time is ripe , it would fall off naturally . " so one must wait till our material wounds heal .

some parents might restrict their kids for logcial reasons , but most often they simply cannot accept that they are going to miss out on being grandparents and have a bahu(daughter in law) and a happy family . subconciously they are also afraid of their son renouncing the world(this is natural though, as they are parents after all) . so the moment they see someone a bit relgious , they get panicky . i have seen this in my life also .
there are many others who simply refuse to accept the fact that their son will be a sannyasi . i have heard a parent saying " alas. my son has renounced this world . i would have been happier to hear that he is dead than to hear this . " just see the dangerous psychology at play with these parents .if their son had been a drug addict ,or a criminal they would have accepted him after a few days of intital trouble . but because he wants to devote his life to god and mankind , they cannot see any fruitfullness in the process .

shastras also make provision for one who has a genuine yearning for god . they are allowed to skip the other two asharamas(namely grihasta and vanaprastha) and directly take to sannyasa .

and one who becomes a genuine seeker sannyasi frees the bonds of his ancestors and descendents for seven generations up and down the line respectively . the pitri rin , deva rin etc are all fullfilled by a true sannyasi as mentioned in shastras .

another point to be mentioned is that there would never be a time when all would renounce the world . spiritual aspirants itself are so few in number , let alone true sannyasis .

secondly if the yearning for god of a would be sannyasi is deep and genuine, god himself takes care so that everything falls into correct place -- his renunciation , his parent's upkeep etc etc .

here i shall tell you an interesting story of swami brahmananda , a disciple of sri ramakrishna . as a kid he had the intense love for god and decided to take up sannyasa sooner or later . his parents panicked and quickly got him married to prevent that sannyasa from happening . he became morose and sad .luckily his mother-in-law turned out to be a spiritual individual who first brought him to ramakrishna pramahamsa . after a few years his wife expired and he prepared himself for sannyasa . seeing this his mother in law's neighbours asked her " why are'nt you being a bit more strict ? is you son-in-law going to turn into a sannyasi ? ". to this she replied " dear me !! will i be fortunate enough to see that holy day ?!! "
just see the change of circumstances . even his mother in law became the happiest person on seeing his son in laws sannyasa .
finally he became the first president of ramakrishna mission . swami vivekananda used to call him " the most advanced in spiritual matters amongst us !! "
similarly if someone has true yearning for god he(god) sees to all his needs .

when it comes to duties , nothing is of more importance than duty of self realization . our very human birth is for that duty . the rest comes all later . we continue to take rebirth and fall into miseries and happiness because that primordial duty remains unfullfilled . and when that duty is met with , the rest are all fulfilled for ever .

having said all those i must also say , that are a good number of individuals who take to sannyasa for escaping the harsh world , or to lead a cult life etc etc . that kind of sannyasa wont work . im talking on the behalf of true sannyasa . there's three types of vairagya --

false vairagya is when someone gets frustrated with material life and thinks about god for a few days . say someone gets ditched in love and heads to vrindavan for a few days rest . this is false vairagya .

the second type is most common , mandya vairagya . here the detachment is genuine but not strong enough . such candidates often succeed to raise their detachment to the highest level and realise god . some others might fail in their atttempt .

the third type is the best vairagya of all -- tivra vairagya or yukta vairagya . intense dispassion and detachment from material things with intense longing for god . this is extremely rare and happens only in final lives of a soul .

even if someone is of mandya vairagya he should try his best to reach the tivra stage . the rest is in the hands of god and his competancy factor.

sambya
31 March 2010, 02:51 AM
namaskar,



Perhaps.

If you die young e.g. in grihasta ashram, isn't there another life? What's the rush? Why forget all your other duties and jump to sanyas? Isn't that being selfish?


(playing devil's advocate)

yes there is another life ! your chance to realize him continues . but there's no certainity of getting another human birth .

and if someone think this way it also means that spiritual realization was not his number one aim in life.

once again i would provide a nice story by sri ramakrishna....

two farmers wanted to dig two canal from the river and connect it to their respective fields where their crops was dying for the want of water . both started digging early in the morning and toiled very hard . at noontime both their wives came to the fields and said " its late and you have not taken any food since morning . come sit for a while , take some rest and a refreshing bath and then you can come back for digging . "
hearing this the first farmer said" thats true , i have been unnecessarily working for so long . let go !! "
the second farmer said " that cannot be done . my crops are dying and i shall first do my job and then think of anything else ."
the second farmer continued to dig hard . when sun was setting the task was done and fresh water flowed in to his fields . now he gave an expression of relief and said to his wife " now bring me the towel and food . i shall enjoy "
the second farmer came back in evening but couldnt finish the work that day . and the next day the crops had all but died . he had to begin afresh !!!

the farmers are the aspirants , the wives -- maya ..

Eastern Mind
31 March 2010, 07:27 AM
Vannakkam:

Satay: I didn't mean taking up sannyas in the middle of grihastha all of a sudden. I think that's quite adharmic. Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant was as a youngster, the real true sannyasin that sambhya referred to.

I know of at least one person, maybe two, who just seemed more suited to the life of a renunciate, and have unhappy marriages because of it. Parents basically forced them to marry.

As sambhya mentioned, these true seekers are few and far between, yet they are a necessary aspect of Hinduism, as that is where we get most, if not all of our Gurus and self-realised beings to look up to from.

Perhaps it has to do with the propensity of 'false; swamis who cause embarassment for their families. I'm not sure.

Basically, I'm just wondering where this sometimes disdainful atitude comes from. perhaops it is also a selfish fear of not having someone to take care of you in old age.

Just thoughts on it.
Aum Namasivaya

upsydownyupsy mv ss
31 March 2010, 07:57 AM
I want to post a single question after reading all this.....
Who told you all that a person would want to renounce the world on hearing spirituality?! That's a common misconception!!!:Roll::laugh: You necessarily "DON'T" have to renounce the world and become a sanyasin to gain knowledge, you can gain knowledge in any of the ashrams of life!!!!! Many of the great rishis of the past were married and still were into spirituality and they had kids too.... Even the great king Janaka was a Kshatriya and a king, thus was he not in samsara and also into the vedas even though he was worldly???! You can be both worldly and into spirituality, AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE BASIC CONCEPT OOOOOF THE 'VAIRAGYAM' IN HINDUISM! Duh... You can find this character in Lord RAMA. That avatar of Vishnu tells us how to reach perfection in spiritual, mental, social, emotional and physical states. SHIVA, is a sanyasin and a gruhastha at the same time, dont you shiva bhaktahs and vishnu bhaktahs know this? Anyway.... I love these replies. :hug:

amith vikram
31 March 2010, 08:49 AM
namaste all,
nice thread this.well,i think the whole point in life is adhyatma.i have met a lot of people who feel being spiritual or doing stuff like reading scriptures,discussing and etc.,are something which is optional and isn't a 'necessary' aspect of life.but the more logical we become,we tend to turn more inward.apart from this,the ramayan,mahabharath and other books are so full of energy,that you would miss a lot if u dont read it early.
and i still have some doubts about sanyasa.there are 2 types of sanyasa:vididisha and vidwad.but acc 2 BG,instead of vididisha,we can practice karma-phala tyaga.the second one comes naturally.so i guess no need to dissapoint the family,and just march on with karma-phala tyaga.

sambya
31 March 2010, 11:07 AM
By Satay----
Basically, I'm just wondering where this sometimes disdainful atitude comes from. perhaops it is also a selfish fear of not having someone to take care of you in old age.

yes thats one of the causes for sure . another cause is 'missing out on a happy family with bahu , grandchildren etc' . third point is , being materialistic themselves , they cannot understand the cause of renunciating , which looks highly unfruitfull to them . another fine point is because they cannot boast of their son's acheivements(education or economic earning wise) in society .



actually its foolish to think that sons would care for you in old age . or for that matter of fact any human would do the same . if you r destined for comfortable end , you shall get it .

i have known a man -- an indian freedom fighter who passed away in 2008 , who had led one of the most inspirational lives . after being released from jail(under british rule) , when india became independent , he decided to lead a active life . he went to a distant village riddled with poverty stricken widows and helpless refugees from newly formed bangladesh .there he built his tiny one room shed with a few flowering plants around . then he purchased pulses and gifted them to the ladies saying " you make papads out of these and give me back . i shall package them and sell them in market . and the money recieved shall be given back to you . " the widows obeyed . slowly admirers gathered and a developemental trust was formed . today the village is a self sufficient model village for entire area . it has bio gas , solar facilities , honey cultivation , library , internet , etc etc etc . western charitable persons come in to make study on the remarkable success of this project . the person himself always wore white dhoti and kurta , kept a white flowing beard and stayed in the same tiny hut . but the area around his home was converted into a modest asharam with meditation rooms and stuff . he modelled his life on ideals or sri aurobindo , ramakrishna and vivekananda . people respected him as a saint.
then one day in 2006 he was suddenly missing . after a one year search he was found in the himalayas . when he was requested to return to his village he replied " i have done whatever i could for them . now the trust is secure and sound . i have no work there anymore . its time to quit with god's name " . in 2008 he passed away and innumerable people gathered to pay their last respects . people cried as if they had lost their own father or grandfather . people did their best to provide him with latest treatments and best seva in the end .
thats why i was saying " if you are destined for it , you shall get it " .

there are many parents with dozens of children who dont even care to look back at them !!

yajvan
31 March 2010, 11:28 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

satay writes,


I can't be sure but let's think about this for a minute... If everyone wanted to renounce the world...what will happen to the society structure? There are after all four stages of life for a regular joe like me. I don't know about other parents but I can say at least for my father that he will not be happy if I decided to pull the 'buddha' on my family tonight.

I see your point. You also inform us that there are 4 stages of life so there is order in society and people can come and go as their evolution ( dharma) unfolds.

Now, let me offer another view - I would be with glee if every one renounced the world at least 1 time each day , but I would prefer 3 times a day.
What's this you talk of yajvan ? That would cause havoc in the world!

My thoughts are simple and are of the following notion. When one performs their sādhana (properly) they're renouncing the world , they are giving it up (yajña¹) to the Supreme. They are giving of 'me' the limited for Being, unlimited.

So where is the renoucing? It comes with one's meditation ( or other upāya¹) when one quite naturally experiences pratiprasava i.e. returning to the original state. At that point all is given up, all duality is consumed and left behind. One is in Union with pure awareness (Being).

It doesn't matter which station (āśaram - halting place; stage) one is in life , male or female, which vārna. All are welcomed to experience their true nature and core of their own being.

One needn't go to the forest unless compelled to do so.


praṇām

words

yajña यज्ञ - act of worship or devotion , offering , oblation , sacrifice
upāya उपाय - that by which one reachges thier aim; techniques, method, approach
pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव - return to the original state ; counter-order , suspension of a general prohibition in a particular case

Eastern Mind
31 March 2010, 12:01 PM
Vannakkam:

A bit of research indicated to me that there are about 5 million renunciates in India, give or take a few hundred thousand. That is a ratio of about 1 in 200. 10% of that figure is female, so it is not just for the sons.

I believe, although I certainly have no true information or figures about Christianity, that devout Catholics or Eastern orthodox would consider it a great thing to become a Franciscan monk or a nun. Clearly that has gone awry in recent years.

They all had mothers from somewhere, and left and were blessed or not blessed by their families. There are the two basic kinds: the wanderers, and the ashramites, those who are in a monastic order of sort.

While I agree with Yajvanji that we renounce the world during daily sadhana, obviously for some, there is a 'bigger' calling. Now I think we can actually reduce the 5 million number by some figure, as surely there are some who renounce for all the wrong reasons, such as laziness etc.

Still there are hordes who are admired, and yet its from a distance. its kind of like saying its okay to be gay , and then when its your own son, its not. I find it ironic.

Thank you sambya for adding your explanations on some of the reasons for this as they all made sense to me. Perhaps someone on here personally knows a family whose son left for the non-grihastha path. Their viewpoint would be interesting. I know that the monkls of Kauai Aadheenam are still allowed to have contact with their families, although the families must visit the monastery, and all the monks refer to the Mothers as Amma. I'm sure they work on affectionate detachment, (letting go positively) from both sides.

I doubt that the Mothers of India have the same view of sons who depart for foreign lands to earn a better living, or maybe they do.

Aum Namasivaya

smaranam
31 March 2010, 03:27 PM
Namaste

My personal view is that children should be exposed to spirituality alongside regular dhArmic teachings as per their interest in and grasp over the subject. Parents are the best judge.
Certainly RAmAyana-Mahabharat does not have to wait, as long as its at a level they can relate to or comprehend.
There are also, good 'sunday school programs' or sanskAr varga, with good curriculums, which start with coloring Deity pictures at age 5, to detailed Mahabharat stories , Bhagavad Gita and goes through all school years.

Some also send their children to gurukul-like schools such as "DnyAna Prabhodini" in Pune, India.

While parents certainly want to instill faith and dharmic values in their children from a very young age, they also know their children enough to tell where they are going ... or 'heading'.
Otherwise, despite the fact that Bhagavan Shri KRshna expects from us NishkAm karma (duties with no expectations), why do we have Adi Shankars, DnyAneshwars, RamaKrishna Paramhamsas, Chaitanya, 6 Goswamis, Meeras, .....

Why did the Gopis run into the woods and were always in a dazed state indifferent to their homes, parents, husbands , some even had children.

Simply because for those like the above, nishkAm karma is easier if you "start off on the right foot" to begin with , so that karma is minimised (read: out of the way) to make the nishkAm part easier, just to be with their beloved Lord.

Why did SAchi mata cry over her son's premature sannyAs (Lord Chaitanya)

So, dear TopsyTurvy, things don't always end at just knowledge of metaphysics - which i don't see why people should be discouraged from.
A 6 year old can understand that God resides in all air, atmosphere, people, living things , furniture etc.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are several things not to be mixed up :

1. straight renunciation - skipping grhastha and vAnaprashtha ashramas.

2. Self sufficient bramhacharya - where a person earns a worldly living , but remains single, thus lowering responsibilities , possibly possessions, and all else that comes with grhastAshram. This person may be affiliated with spiritual organizations, do social work etc.

3. GrhastAshram

I do not see why parents should oppose case #2 if the child's sankalpa is firm. - with one note that girls are generally not encouraged to stay single in society. Swami PrabhupAd points out that vedic culture suggested that women are to be protected , first by father, then husband and then grown son.
However, we do have women sanyAsins in ashrams as well as single women earning a living - bramhacharya.

The thing with case #1 is, no matter what level of sannyAs , for most practical purposes, one has to be attached to some organization or ashram. And that requires money, administration and their own kind of 'sansAr'. This is not always practical and feasible. I do not see anything wrong in parents being opposed to #1.

**Finally, parents themselves are not generally afraid of their own old age. Parents are far more concerned about the child's well-being in a world of uncertainty, what to speak of sannyAs ashram.
Sometimes, the father is more adventurous but mother is not , or the other way around, or neither are very adventurous about their child.


praNAm

Eastern Mind
31 March 2010, 04:19 PM
they also know their children enough to tell where they are going ... or 'heading'.


While I totally agree with this in principle, there are exceptions. These lead to unhappy marriages, unfortunately. Of course its all karma. I totally believe in "respect your parents"... provided they're not nutcases.

I also think there are several cultural differences and diverse ideas within the Indian subcontinent. Sannyas, for example, seems more common in the North. So I think as I hear more and more, the questions and topic expands.

Aum Namasivaya

TatTvamAsi
01 April 2010, 12:24 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté

ādi śaṅkara was born ~ 650 CE ( now there are others with different dates, but let's go with this one).
At the age of 2 it is said hew could speak, read and write saṃskṛt; He wrote his first book at the age of 7; It is said by 8 years of age he mastered the veda-s.

Such for youth that is blessed.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvan,

The only thing is, Adi Sankara was not just a 'regular' human in the eyes of Saivites and Smartas; he was SivA incarnate.

Regarding age in general; unless one shows extraordinary affinity to spirituality, it is generally discouraged as "interests" in childhood are as fleeting as the rainbow. Thus, parents, who look at things in the long run, tend to discourage 'spiritual zeal' of their young ones. The funny thing is, Adi Sankara's mother did it herself! Yet, he had to have the permission and blessing of his mother before he could take sannyas.

The pitru's blessings are paramount in Sanatana Dharma; without them, we are nothing. Self-abnegation and putting your parents' interests ahead of yourself is typical of Sanskriti culture; hopefully a trait that will live on in India as it has for thousands of years!

Namaskar.

upsydownyupsy mv ss
02 April 2010, 06:03 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

satay writes,


I see your point. You also inform us that there are 4 stages of life so there is order in society and people can come and go as their evolution ( dharma) unfolds.

Now, let me offer another view - I would be with glee if every one renounced the world at least 1 time each day , but I would prefer 3 times a day.
What's this you talk of yajvan ? That would cause havoc in the world!

My thoughts are simple and are of the following notion. When one performs their sādhana (properly) they're renouncing the world , they are giving it up (yajña¹) to the Supreme. They are giving of 'me' the limited for Being, unlimited.

So where is the renoucing? It comes with one's meditation ( or other upāya¹) when one quite naturally experiences pratiprasava i.e. returning to the original state. At that point all is given up, all duality is consumed and left behind. One is in Union with pure awareness (Being).

It doesn't matter which station (āśaram - halting place; stage) one is in life , male or female, which vārna. All are welcomed to experience their true nature and core of their own being.

One needn't go to the forest unless compelled to do so.


praṇām

words
yajña यज्ञ - act of worship or devotion , offering , oblation , sacrifice
upāya उपाय - that by which one reachges thier aim; techniques, method, approach
pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव - return to the original state ; counter-order , suspension of a general prohibition in a particular case That was an awesome explanation yajvan. U like totally red my mind. :)
Like I said "I want to post a single question after reading all this.....
Who told you all that a person would want to renounce the world on hearing spirituality?! That's a common misconception!!! You necessarily "DON'T" have to renounce the world and become a sanyasin to gain knowledge, you can gain knowledge in any of the ashrams of life!!!!! Many of the great rishis of the past were married and still were into spirituality and they had kids too.... Even the great king Janaka was a Kshatriya and a king, thus was he not in samsara and also into the vedas even though he was worldly???! You can be both worldly and into spirituality, AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE BASIC CONCEPT OOOOOF THE 'VAIRAGYAM' IN HINDUISM! Duh... You can find this character in Lord RAMA. That avatar of Vishnu tells us how to reach perfection in spiritual, mental, social, emotional and physical states. SHIVA, is a sanyasin and a gruhastha at the same time, dont you shiva bhaktahs and vishnu bhaktahs know this? Anyway.... I love these replies. " Thats all there is to it. Being like a lotus or swan which stays in the water throughout its and loves the water, but is not wet by it. Similarly, we humans must constantly perform our duties and still constantly, our soul must desire for god alone, which is called vairagya. Hey Satay, plz dont delete this message of its length. Oh yea, I discovered one more thing. I came to know why I was discouraged by my mother, even though she is spiritual like me. It's a simple reason. Its just that since one year, my academic performance is low.:p My mother told me that I can go all time spirituality if and only if I kick myself back to track. Its just like training an animal by giving it treats. If the animal has to get the treat, it has to listen to its trainer. I also came to know why my father discourages me. Its because he feels I would renounce the world :Roll:. Nope. Not me. My mother understands me completely. She says she'll even convince my father if I am the best in this year's performance. I Love these replies. This forum is awesome. Its better than even physics forums. :D

satay
02 April 2010, 07:13 PM
namaste,


Hey Satay, plz dont delete this message of its length.

It's 'read' my mind not the color 'red'. :)