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atanu
01 April 2010, 01:24 AM
Deleted

Nara
01 April 2010, 06:15 PM
....Before you complete your work to prove that Hindu scripture is blot,

atanu, I did not say this, you are putting words into my mouth.



But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers. This warning is a little puzzling to me. What exactly does this warning entail? Is it the push back I am sure to get from you and other persons opposed to my views, or do you have anything more serious in mind?

Thank you ....

vivendi
01 April 2010, 07:42 PM
atanu, I did not say this, you are putting words into my mouth.
really! when you say varna is a blot in society and poke holes citing VA siddhantam, what makes you believe you are not calling scriptures a blot? Where did you learn about varna? From the scriptures. So Atanu is putting words in your mouth, or is the mouth connecting the brain changing and does not remember what was said earlier?

satay
01 April 2010, 07:55 PM
Admin Note

Gentlemen!

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Could you please shed some light? Is it attack Nara personally? Let me remind you that personal attacks are against the rules of HDF.

What's the purpose of saying this:


I think you should smile and shake off the burden of proving any blot. But if you still wish to show all the blots then go ahead. But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers.

atanu
01 April 2010, 11:27 PM
Deleted

saidevo
01 April 2010, 11:55 PM
namaste Satay.

Atanu said in his OP:
I think you should smile and shake off the burden of proving any blot. But if you still wish to show all the blots then go ahead. But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers.
*****

You know that this is not a personal reference (or attack) to (on) Nara. At best it is a suggestion that knowledgeable and rational atheists like Nara should consider the ultimate advaitic purport of the instructions relating to varNa and jAti in our shruti and dharma shAstras, and try to contemplate on it personally before resorting to 'prove' that varNa and jAti and the scriptures that speak of them are 'blots' on Hinduism.

When the Vedas speak of the four varNas originated from the PuruSha from different parts of his body, and KRShNa ParamAtma in GItA speaks of having created them, then is it not avidyA--ignorance, to consider that God's head is holier than his feet (in fact the opposite is true, which is why Manu says that the Shudras are pure and don't have any scriptural injunctions)?

It is this truth that those of us who seek to question varNa and jAti system should contemplate, specially when we are more logical, rational, tolerant and knowledgeable than a politician with a vested interest, who does the same thing in his own asuric manner and spreads lies and canards against Hinduism thereby diving the Hindus?

It is a curious case of atheists that they seek to attack with the severest criticism, all established norms of dharma and every concept of God and divinity in the Hindu Sanatana Dharma, since they don't have any doctrine of atheism worthwhile to subscribe to and follow. Is there a scripture/doctrine that defines all that the theistic scriptures and doctrines speak of, from the POV of atheism without resorting to attacking the theistic texts?

Although atheists attribute the absence of their own scriptural texts to go by, to the liberty they enjoy without any compulsion to follow anything, IMO, it is their feeling of living under a blanket of uncertainty and insecurity (specially when they believe in the no-soul, one-life, progeny-by-genes principle of Science) that makes them do what they seek to do.

Is it not ironical that Nara says that he does not believe in the inerrancy of the Vedas as revealed scriptures, does not believe in VA or any other Hindu philosophy or even another religion for that matter, and yet seek to prove that varNa is a blot on the scriptures that speak of the system?

kd gupta
02 April 2010, 06:42 AM
Let me have my own way of the explanation…
As per gita which is known to be Sanatan or vedic dharm explanation , Krsn limits the boundaries from other prevailing religions saying that know your and remain in your own dharm .
Neeti shloka is….satyam bruyat priyam bruyat na bruyat satyam apriyam .
priyama cha anratam varje ash dharm sanatnah .
Means satya which is not pleasant should only be spoken at proper time….as vibhison speaks to ravna at proper time…paya suavsar tat, goswamiji writes , and asatya may be pleasant , should not be spoken .
Take it to varna vyavastha . Brahmin and kshatriya always have been given ample of time free as per there duties , but there duties involve more mental and less physical work, except in some time , therefore they have been directed to engage themselves not in earning money or going for bad deeds but in worship of god . In case of women vaish and shudra , the main work is working around money so their secondary work has been taken as worship and the primary work has been taken as DUTY .

The copy of other religion traditions in sanatan dharm followers is seen as Bad in worse these days .

devotee
02 April 2010, 08:07 AM
Namaste Atanu,


Namaste Shri Nara and Devotee

I wonder why you thought it fit to club me with Nara ! :confused:

Satay has tried to defend Nara in his post ... but is it not funny to see that Nara sees only blots everywhere in Hinduism ? The Hindus have around last 10000 years of glorious history. We were economically, socially and spiritually far ahead of the westerners even in 300 BC. Is everything so bad in Hinduism ... its Advaita, VA, Dwaita .... the Vedas, the Smritis, the Itihasas & Puranas ... all are simply blots ?? If everything is so bad, I think it is better for all Hindus to commit suicide !!

I was taught in management : "Try to see something positive in your team even in the worst of a scenario because there lies the key to the door to success". "Catch him doing something right !" etc.

I think my management gurus were all wrong !

OM

upsydownyupsy mv ss
02 April 2010, 08:22 AM
hmm... a serious discussion. My opinion is: "The varna system is an outstanding discovery of the early hindus, but the later hindus of the upper misunderstood the varna system and converted it into caste system for their advantage. Varna system is awesome. But jaati system is naive. Even Mahathma Gandhi 'appreciated' the varna system and not the 'caste' system. Varna system is vedic and flawless and from the scriptures, but caste system is all 'made-up' " And yes! There certainly is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the varna and the caste system. Most people consider them to be the same, hence they argue it to be a blot. And satay, neither do I see this as a personal attack on Nara.
Dear sir, Nara. Please search the forums for 'Varna system misunderstanding' and please go through the thread. Varna means basically colour. Here, colour means the colour of the soul in the present janma.
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING UPSYDOWNYUPSY MV SS? ARE YOU NAIVE? HOW CAN THE SOUL HAVE COLOUR???

NO. I'm not naive. Here colour refers to the nature. That is,
1.) Is he a noble warrior and/or a leader who protects people and justice, with his physical strength and brains even if it means violence? (Like police, military, paramilitary, scientists who work on missiles and bombs) Then he is a Kshatriya varna and not to be mixed with Kshatriya caste.
2.) Is he a noble person, who is patient, kind to others and does seva of the society and people in both big and little terms and is humble? Then he is Shudra.
3.) Is he a noble person who takes care of the society and works hard and strives for the best and who is as intelligent as a brahmin and is ready to be a Shudra at any time and attains wealth of all terms through righteousness? Then he is a Vaishya. (FARMERS, business men, the term used as 'aam admi' in india)
4.) Is he a noble person who excells in spirituality or sciences or arts or in teaching or advising the rulers or thinking or inventing or discovering? Then he is a brahmin by varna and not by caste.
Varna system is by deeds and thoughts.
The above is varna system. In varna system, all people are considered equal as all are equally important, just as even tissue or organ of a plant or animal is important, but are different in structure and function. If varna system is to be wrong (which is not), then the classification of species in biology is wrong and classification of anatomy of animals and plants is wrong. Even ants follow the varna system, also termites, also lions, also monkeys and apes, also bees. Is varna system wrong, if so, nature is wrong, which is Impossible as nature is a part of god.

Coming to the caste system, it says one who is born to a brahmin family is a brahmin, one born to a kshatriya family is a kshatriya and so on. If you still dont get the difference, again read the whole thing.

Dear sir nara and others, the scriptures are never wrong, only misunderstood

atanu
02 April 2010, 12:08 PM
Namaste Atanu,

I wonder why you thought it fit to club me with Nara ! :confused:

OM

Namaste Devotee:)

Sorry. I did not club. I wished to enquire whether your guru or any hindu guru has said that Dharma Shastra is not valid? I do not club you with Shri Nara at all and thus kindly do not take it as a critique but only as a question.

Om Namah Shivaya

Nara
02 April 2010, 01:12 PM
……It is a curious case of atheists that they seek to attack with the severest criticism, all established norms of dharma and every concept of God and divinity in the Hindu Sanatana Dharma,..

Brother, my criticism is only about the Varna dharma, not every concept of God, etc. As an atheist I deny there is a God like Rama, Krishna, or Jesus. Why do you think that is an attack on Hindu Dharma?

Whether we atheists have a worthwhile doctrine or not is an independent question, not related to whether Varna system is a blot or not.

I am not sure what you mean by doctrine though, if it is religious doctrine you are referring to, atheists think that is the main problem with religions, their doctrine, which is always inerrant to the followers. So, by definition, atheists don’t have a doctrine.

But, if you are using the term doctrine in a secular sense, then yes, atheists do have doctrine, it encompasses a variety of concepts like, liberty, equality, compassion and love, skeptical rationalism, and things like that.



…Is it not ironical that Nara says that he does not believe in the inerrancy of the Vedas as revealed scriptures, does not believe in VA or any other Hindu philosophy or even another religion for that matter, and yet seek to prove that varNa is a blot on the scriptures that speak of the system? I fail to see the irony. Why is faith in a religious scripture a prerequisite to study and criticize it? When Adi Shankara criticized Charvaka, did he have to believe in Charvaka theory?

Thanks…

vivendi
02 April 2010, 02:40 PM
But, if you are using the term doctrine in a secular sense, then yes, atheists do have doctrine, it encompasses a variety of concepts like, liberty, equality, compassion and love, skeptical rationalism, and things like that.
What is equality to an atheist? Seeing others who believes in god is ignorant, unscientific, uneducated, irrational, war mongering, etc.. That way an atheist sits on top of the varna system, sort of in a self professed way calling himself educated and others ignorant.

satay
02 April 2010, 08:10 PM
namaskar atanu and other members,

I still fail to see the intent of the thread.

If it was truly posted 'with love and to request shri nara to contemplate on alternate thinking' then I leave it here...but in my opinion this could have been done with a PM.

For Devotee, Yes, I have tried to 'defend' Nara. As it doesn't make sense to attack him personally. And I am under the imression that this thread was created to do just that or maybe the intent was different as Atanu clarified but it was certainly turning into a personal attack.

Caste and other 'hot topics' have been discussed to death on HDF and as a matter of fact my own personal opinions on it are openly posted here on HDF and on other forums on the net. Caste, Jati and Varna are here to stay. It is what it is. There is not need to feel guilty about it just becuase the dalits or non-hindus don't like it.

I am not giving up my caste, my varna or jati in this lifetime and I suppose you are not either so...:Cool:

vivendi
02 April 2010, 09:55 PM
Caste, Jati and Varna are here to stay. It is what it is. There is not need to feel guilty about it just becuase the dalits or non-hindus don't like it.
this is one of the most practical sentences I have seen after a long time!

devotee
02 April 2010, 10:48 PM
Namaste Atanu,


I wished to enquire whether your guru or any hindu guru has said that Dharma Shastra is not valid?

My Guru ji never discriminated on the basis of one's caste by birth. He taught to love each and everyone. Actually, any discrimination goes against the Advaita Sadhana.

Regarding saying that "Dharma Shastra is not valid" .... is a very difficult situation. It can create confusion in the minds of simple people and they can lose faith in all scriptures and go on a wrong path. So, one have to be very careful while dealing with such sensitive issues. Sometimes, it serves better to leave some questions unanswered. So, you won't find Saints indulging in such exercise.

However, their act shows that they never believed in any discrimination based on caste, creed, sex or any other classification.

OM

atanu
02 April 2010, 11:16 PM
namaskar atanu and other members,

I still fail to see the intent of the thread.

If it was truly posted 'with love and to request shri nara to contemplate on alternate thinking' then I leave it here...but in my opinion this could have been done with a PM.

:Cool:

Namaste Satay

In a post mortem state, I agree with you. But why do you see the intention of attack-insult?:headscratch:

The purpose was to suggest to all, and especially to friend Nara, an idea of how powerful the role of a word (vak) and its understanding can be. That purpose has failed -- it seems.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
03 April 2010, 12:45 AM
Namaste Atanu,

My Guru ji never discriminated on the basis of one's caste by birth. He taught to love each and everyone. Actually, any discrimination goes against the Advaita Sadhana.

Regarding saying that "Dharma Shastra is not valid" .... is a very difficult situation. It can create confusion in the minds of simple people and they can lose faith in all scriptures and go on a wrong path. So, one have to be very careful while dealing with such sensitive issues. Sometimes, it serves better to leave some questions unanswered. So, you won't find Saints indulging in such exercise.

However, their act shows that they never believed in any discrimination based on caste, creed, sex or any other classification.

OM

Namaste Devotee

Does the statement highlighted in blue imply that manu Smriti taught/teaches discrimination?

Sages have stated emphatically about Dharma Shastra being valid for Hindus. The Dharma Shastra itself speaks of requirement of absolute lack of hatred as a first requirement. If some gurus have not spoken then it is not to create confusion.

As repeatedly said: though wood is same but a chair and a table have different functions, which are not lower or higher. Steps in a staircase have this lower and higher connotation but the higher step cannot exist without the lower step. And beneath every step is the cement.

Dharma Shastra begins with statements of equality and one source of the four varnas. It ends with the guidance that attainment of atman is the goal for all. It says that the Brahmana is one who sees all as Self and all in Self. Such a one cannot discriminate. Can he?

There is no scope for any discrimination. But when one reads Dharma Shastra from the perspective of an individual, belonging to a group which has a cause for its existence an automatic agenda is created. And the coloration becomes inevitable. Just as in case of Shri Nara, IMO. This process is known in science as Selective Cognition. When a person buys a new car, then he starts seeing the same brand all around.

Manu Smriti says that it is not for everyone but only for those who decide to take up a life of Sacrifice -- from birth till end. That is not anyone's cup of tea here. But that does not mean that Manu Smriti becomes invalid.

My request is that Judgements on Manu Smriti should not be based on politicians or journalists but based on what Kanchi pontiff or any legitimate guru says about it.

Actually there was no reason ever for us to discuss this, till Shri Nara and his claims of blots surfaced.

I hope you will give a considerate reading.

Om Namah Shivaya

amith vikram
03 April 2010, 01:36 AM
But, if you are using the term doctrine in a secular sense, then yes, atheists do have doctrine, it encompasses a variety of concepts like, liberty, equality, compassion and love, skeptical rationalism, and things like that.





namaste naraji,
first of all,the objective of the varna s/m is to attain moksha.in a more simple term,to have purity mind and to attain all the purusharthas.over and over again we see the sentences like let there be peace,let me be loved by all men,let the humans love and respect each other,etc,etc in our dharma.if we read ramayana,we will notice how rama,maryada purushottam,set the standards for mortals.when we study things in an unbiased manner,we've to take care we have analysed every part without fail.i dont think there ever lived a man as good,as kind,as powerful as shri ram,and he was under this varna s/m.
we have lot of people across the planet for liberty,equality,etc.who has succeeded?
yes,if the goal is just having a house and family,then yes,varna s/m is a terrible thing.

devotee
03 April 2010, 01:50 AM
Dear Atanu,

You are one of my dearest friends here and you know very well that I hate to go against you even the slightest. :)

However, if you ask me to give my unbiased opinion, I would say this :

Like Padma Purana (quoted by ISKCONites), many scriptures basically the smritis, the Itihasas and Puranas, imho, were manipulated much later on by some interested groups for their vested interests. The Vedas (including Upanishads), somehow are not manipulated. So, though the sanctity of Vedas cannot be questioned ... same is difficult to say about other scriptures. If we accept that all scriptures are without any manipulation then we, the Advaitins i.e. the Mayavaadis (as ISKCONites love to call us) are actually the demons !
In my opinion which matches the opinion of many scholars of Hindu scriptures is that Manusmriti as it stands today is too much manipulated.

And yes, I do find the present day Manusmriti discriminative against the so-called sudras and the untouchables. If you or anyone can find some better interpretation than what it appears from its literal meaning ... that is always welcome.

OM

satay
03 April 2010, 03:04 AM
namaste atanu,
What's the meaning and intent of the following sentences?



But if you still wish to show all the blots then go ahead. But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers.


What 'speed breakers' are you warning Nara about and why?

Your above statements are causing me to think that your original intent was different.

Only you can be sure of what your original intent was and I take your word for it and consider this matter closed.

Please take the last word as usual.

atanu
03 April 2010, 12:19 PM
namaste atanu,

What 'speed breakers' are you warning Nara about and why?



Namaste Satay

Yes, it seems it was me who did not pay heed and got a bump on head. :) Removed the root.

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
06 April 2010, 09:37 AM
Namaste Satay

Yes, it seems it was me who did not pay heed and got a bump on head. :) Removed the root.

Om Namah Shivaya

You are right Atanuji
Discussion stareted with Advaita and probably ended with Adreshta , the blindness...ha....ha .
Anyway I always learn from your learned posts, thanks .