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Nara
01 April 2010, 09:13 PM
Greetings my fellow humans!

Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?

In this presentation I will be using the terms Jati and Varna interchangeably. Many will undoubtedly object. We have already gone over this in a different thread. The fact of the matter is, the Brahmin orthodoxy, from whom the legitimacy of Varna system is derived, holds these two concepts, i.e., Jati and Varna, as closely related, and in common parlance it is alright to use the two terms interchangeably. In support of this I present the following from the web site of Kanchi Kamakoti Matam (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap1.htm):
“There are four varnas - Brahmin, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. We identify "varnas" with "jatis". In point of fact, varna and jati are not the same. The varnas are only the four mentioned above, that is Brahmins, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. Within each there are many jatis. Among Brahmins there are Ayyars, Ayyangars, Raos, and so on. In the fourth varna there are Mudaliars, Pillais, Reddis, Naikkars, Nayudus, Gaundars, Padayacis.“

“In common parlance jati is used for varna. I am also using the two as interchangeable terms. “
Sri Vaishnavas also follow the above definition, and I suspect of Madwas do as well. Further, this is how Varna is commonly understood. In the common consciousness of Hindu society, Jati and Varna have remained synonymous. If a claim is made that a nuanced understanding of the texts is needed to really appreciate that Varna has nothing to do with birth, only Jati does, then one might ask how a common man can be expected to see this nuance when even great Acharyas like Adi Shanaka and Bhagavat Ramanuja did not?

In addition, for the common man in day-to-day life, two things are clear from experience, (i) you are born into a Jati and (ii) this Jati system is hierarchical with the Brahmanas sitting at the top. So, for the enlightened and the uninitiated alike, in the fine points of scripture for the former and daily life for the later, Varna and Jati mean either about the same thing or the same thing. Those who still insist that only Jati is birth based and Varna is not, fall outside the mainstream view. So, for the purpose of this discussion, I will follow the Kanchi Kamakoti Matam’s definition under which (i) Jati is simply a further sub-division of varna, and (ii) in common parlance, Varna and Jati may be used interchangeably.

From Vedas, Smrithees, and Ithihasa prunas, we are told the Lord made the four Varnas according to gunas and actions; as a function of accumulated papa and punya, people are born into one of these Varnas; these births are infused with a mix of three gunas with one of the three predominating, for example Satva for Brahmins, etc.; just birth is not sufficient, but one must fulfill the prescribed duties to truly belong to a Varna. Of the four Varnas, only Shudra is once born and because of this he is forbidden from studying Shruti. His source of knowledge is only Ithihasa puranas. Shanakara and Ramanuja cite Manu 10.4 to establish this. They also cites Taittria Samhita 7.1.1.6, which says Shudra are not permitted to perform yagnas, to prove that Shudras are not permitted to study the Vedas.

Why is this objectionable, say some, by claiming that these are just duties, not privileges? A heavy load of stringent duties are prescribed to Brahmanas, and papa will result if these prescribed duties are abandoned. Whereas, there are no ritual duties for Shudras and therefore Shudras are not subject to sins that result from abandonment of ritual duties.

Yes, all this cannot be objected to, if this is a voluntary system and there is no force. Any group of people can believe in anything they want and subject themselves to any austerities they like. However, this system does not offer any choice. A child born in this society is automatically placed and locked into a Varna for life. If the child does not like this system after growing up, he/she is not even allowed to abandon it. Shudras are threatened with severe punishment if the injections are not followed. The punishments meted out to Shambuka and Ekalaiva are just two examples of this. Even if these are just stories, they served as powerful warnings to Shudras, look what can happen if you try to challenge the system.

If the Varna system promises a cushy life for Shudras, would they not be happy to stay in that station and never try to free themselves from Shudrahood? Why then take the trouble of warning them of severe consequences if they transgress? Gautama Smrithi says Shudra are like cemetery and warns that the ears of a Shudra who hear the chanting of Vedas must be filled with molten lead. If he dares reciting Vedas his tongue is to be slit and his body is to be cut. What is the point of such harshness?

But, what is very disheartening is the fact that both Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite the above injunctions to establish that Vedas should not be taught to Shudra. The practice of keeping out Shudra from Vedic study is followed even in these modern times. No Veda Pathashala run by Brahmnical institutions will accept a Shudra child in their midst.

Some argue that Varnashrama darma is a means by which one purifies one’s soul, a prerequisite for moksha. They further assert that there is no gradation in Varna, all duties are to be performed as Bhagavat Aradanam. The job of a priest is not superior to that of a toilet cleaner. Again, all this is fine if these are voluntary. If you willingly and voluntarily and in full knowledge, believe in this doctrine, then no one has the right to take this experience away from you. But this Varna system is not based on consent. It is imposed on people at the time of birth. People of “low” birth are kept illiterate so that they never would know any better. Just look at the following injunctions against Shudra described in Manu Smrithi.
8.270 says Shudra are of low origin.
2.31 says a Shudra must be named something contemptible
3.164 equates a breeder of sporting-dogs, a falconer, one who defiles maidens, he who delights in injuring living creatures, he who gains his subsistence, with Shudra.
8.147 says a Brahmana can just seize the goods of Shudra for he is not permitted to have any property
9.178 says a son a Brahmana begets through lust on a Shudra female is a living corpse -- who is to determine it is by lust or true love, I don’t know!!
10.129 says a Shudra is not allowed to accumulate wealth because Shudra with wealth will give pain to Brahmanas.
11.131 & 132 equate the punishment for murdering a Shudra with that of cat, dog, frog, bird, etc. The punishment can be as mild and beneficial to Brahmana as giving ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana.Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate. Some may see humor in this, but normal people are rightly mortified by all this degrading vitriol piled upon a group of people just because they were born Shudra. If the Varna system is for purifying one’s soul, that will lead to enlightenment someday, what is the need for these degrading injunctions?

One may be tempted to brush aside Manu Smrithi as an unimportant or irrelevant text. But, if you did, you will be contradicting great acharyas like Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja, both of whom cite Taittria Samhita 2.2.10.2 to extol MS as medicine for society’s ills, like an anti-biotic perhaps. Both these acharyas profusely quote from MS to bolster their arguments. A widely respected commentator of the acclaimed Tamil text on morality called Thirukkural, who happens to be Brahmin (Parimelazhagar), uses MS extensively in his commentary. So, as we can see, MS was held in high regard among Brahmin orthodoxy and intellectuals, and this is still true among the Brahmin orthodoxy.

Religion is normally promoted as a way of achieving something exalted. Yet, the Varna system, as presented to us by Hindu religious texts and acharyas, keeps a large section of the population from advanced religious study strictly based on birth, not on desire or ability.

Based on all these, saying the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism is, IMO, callously mild.

All this humiliation is for Shudra who are part of the Varna system. The lot of the antyajas and avarnas, who don’t deserve to be even included in the Varna system, is far worse. They were relegated to the meanest of menial vocation and some in the orthodoxy considered the mere sight of one of them is polluting.

Up until about 1930s Dalits were legally disallowed to enter a temple premises or even the street where a temple is located. More than 60 years after independence, Dalits are still prevented from entering temples. Even with court order and police protection, Dalits were prevented from entering a temple in Tamilnadu recently by the upper caste Hindus (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Dalits-enter-TN-temple-first-time-in-100-yrs/articleshow/5170727.cms). They were able to enter in their second attempt accompanied by the collector himself. This is not an isolated incidence, it is happening from Assam to Tamil Nadu, from Orissa (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_priests-to-purify-orissa-temple-after-dalit-entry_1069539) to Gujarat (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-temple-entry-for-dalits-in-Gujarat/articleshow/5308970.cms). The Orissa case is telling. Here is a quote from a priest,
“The Dalits have besmirched the religious traditions and have polluted the temple. We need to perform Maha Snana, a bath ritual of the deity."
Gandhi said untouchability is a blot on Hinduism. Some 60 years later Manmohan Singh says untouchability is a blot on humanity. Those who want to say untouchability is not in the Varna system are only obfuscating.

Some people say this is not the fault of the Varna system, Brahmanas are not involved; it is all political and economic. Why then are the conflicts falling along caste lines? A poor upper caste may find his lot not very different from that of a poor Dalit, but he will still side with the rich of his own caste. There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty.

Another defense some offer is that people don’t follow the Varna system as intended. If only they did, everything will be perfect. If this was so, then we have to blame the one who designed this system in the first place. God is said to have designed this system, and this almighty god designed a system that was so easily subverted by mere humans? With all his omnipotence and omniscience, why did he not design a system that people could follow properly?

Be that as it may, it is only when we strictly follow the Varna system, as it was designed and explained, we have to engage in brutal oppression of Shudra and avarna, and the domination of women. Only to the extent we do not follow the Varna system, as intended, do we not engage in these vile practices.

Some defend the Varna system from purely religious doctrinal grounds such as Advaitam. They say, in the ultimate, difference is unreal and so on. Those who find such doctrinal defense perfectly legitimate, without any sense of irony, are not averse to criticize things they find objectionable in other religions. For instance, pious Christians consider saving souls by bringing them to Jesus is the most merciful thing their God ordained. For them, proselytizing is a solemn duty because God ordained it. How can something God ordained be anything but good? The same is the case with the doctrine of eternal damnation of those who do not take Jesus Christ as their savior. Fundamentalist Christians believe this to be God’s dictum and therefore moral.

Of course non-Christians reject this out of hand, and rightly so. Christians may believe anything they want, that is fine, but no reasonable person will hesitate to say these are hideous. Many reasonable Christians themselves are properly embarrassed by all this and reject these with equal emphasis. Recently, one of the Christian members of HDF suggested that Christians must focus on the Sermon of the Mount, and not on the theology of resurrection.

Similarly, Varna system may be a perfectly noble system for some die-hard Hindus, but the rest of us cannot be expected to just simply accept their judgment. Arguments that appeal to religious doctrine and dogma may find traction within the confines of shared faith, but not outside. A non-Hindu, or even a Hindu with reform in his/her heart, cannot be expected to accept the claim that Varna system is righteous, any more than a non-Christian can be expected to accept proselytizing is good because God said so. Therefore, to evaluate whether Varna system is a boon or bane for Hinduism, we have to view it dispassionately. We need to evaluate the Varna system whether it has been beneficial to the society in general or not, in a sort of utilitarian way.

Caste/Varna system continues to dog our society in a myriad of ways. It has divided our nation into caste groups that are at each other’s throats all the time. Except a few racists here and there, a system that discriminates based on birth is universally despised. Article 2 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights made in 1948 says the following:
“Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status…..” (emphasis mine)
The caste/varna system, so far as it is birth based, is no different from racial discrimination, so says the UN International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, 1965. Here is the text that defines what encompasses racial discrimination.
“… any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.” (emphasis mine)
The 2002 report from the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, included the following,
“Strongly reaffirming that discrimination based on "descent" includes discrimination against members of communities based on forms of social stratification such as caste and analogous systems of inherited status which nullify or impair their equal enjoyment of human rights,” (emphasis mine)
With world opinion settled against decent based discrimination of any kind, continued support for Varna system on any basis will only have negative impact on how Hinduism is viewed. This is why Varna system is a blot that must be removed as quickly and as completely as possible.

As we have seen in the past few days, Varna is a controversial topic. People come with a particular POV and are quick to accuse others of misunderstanding the whole thing. I do not begrudge enthusiastic young Hindus showing an urge to present the Varna system in as best a light as possible. But, I submit to you, that is not a wise approach. Welfare of Hindu dharma requires an unbiased understanding of Varna, how it is defined in the scriptures, how it is practiced, how it is viewed, and what effect it has had on the society, and, committed action to redress any issues that need remedying.

For all its greatness in advanced philosophical thinking, Hindu religion is inextricably linked to Varna/Caste system. Fine distinctions between Varna and Jati exist only in the minds of Brahmins who are uncomfortable with the discriminatory practices described in Manu, against women and the so called Shudra and Avarnas, and followed by the dominant castes only to the extent convenient. For the orthodox Brahmins and the common people, especially the ones towards the bottom of the hierarchy, these nuances are lost, in theoretical purity for the former, and the day-to-day reality for the later. So, rightly or wrongly, in so far as the insidious caste system is inseparably linked with Varna and Manu, the Varna system remains the worst weakness for Hinduism. This is why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism and getting rid of it is like cutting off a rotting limb to save the life. The sooner Hindus do it, the sooner they will be back in good health, so long as religion remains of interest to the common folks. Not doing it will inescapably cost it the very existence. Many a religion have come and gone. Hubris in one’s own religious superiority can only result in its fall.

There is intellectual basis for getting rid of this Varna system. From what I have heard, Vishnu Purana and Srimat Bhagavatam say in Kali Yuga everything will be topsy turvy and nobody will follow the prescribed dharma. So, the establishment can say the Varna system is not applicable for the present times and embrace a more open and inclusive theology, somewhat like that of Sri Vaishnavam of Azhvars, or Saivam of Nayamanars and Lingayath of Karnataka. Some have already done this, like Arya Samaj. But unfortunately, they still pay homage to Manu and cling to the same terminologies like Varna. There must be a clean break.

I have said all this because I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist. If there must be a religion for society to prosper, then I rather it is Hinduism of Bhagavat Ramjanuja’s kind where the Iswara is not a blob of useless consciousness, but a loving god never separated from each of us.

So, I request you not to think of me as just a foe. I mean no harm for Hinduism. I am also aware that this disclaimer may not satisfy everyone and there may be some heavy push back. I welcome a spirited debate. However, I request everyone to stick to the points and refrain from taking cheap shots. I can only request, the rest is up to you guys. I will respond to any comment that is free of Ad Hominem.

Cheers!

NayaSurya
01 April 2010, 10:33 PM
This may not be a popular opinion, but since I am a silly anglo and apparently of some below, below lowest class not even able to classify how unfit I am.. I find your posts very informative.

Nara, as much trouble and isolation as I have suffered from not swallowing the pill and becoming a sheep with the masses here in the USA....your posts always help me realize how lucky I am to be a free spirit. Untouchable by some opinions, and very glad of it.

My family is 1/2 Irish and 1/2 Cherokee...Very hearty tough warrior folk. I was raised believing I could be anything, do anything, go anywhere!
I can't imagine living a childhood where such things were decided by a parents status in this lifetime.

I have learned more about Varna system on here than I have reading for 6 years. It's true! All thanks to you.<3

This post has really no point but to basically to say: "Rock on with your bad self":P

Translation: You're brilliant!

atanu
01 April 2010, 11:09 PM
Greetings my fellow humans!
Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?


Dear Shri Nara

You only prove that not all should read shastra. In world, the problem is an Osama having read as per his ego -- imagining himself to be an individual and a messiah. In India also such happen.

We will discuss further. For the time being let me remind you:


There is intellectual basis for getting rid of this Varna system. From what I have heard, Vishnu Purana and Srimat Bhagavatam say in Kali Yuga everything will be topsy turvy and nobody will follow the prescribed dharma.

MS also says so. Further, Vishnu Purana and Bhagavatam say many more things. Do you have the courage and will to study in full? You have created an excuse that you do not believe in after life. A sudra is none but a Brahmana, who has failed miserably on account of hatred etc.

You do not show us the verse from MS that a Brahmana is not a Brahmana, who knows not the Self as One and All. It is easy to understand that a true Brahmana cannot see a Sudra as another. Kindly read in full and contemplate before you gun after a scripture. Ears of such Brahmanas also should be filled with molten lead when such avidya prone Brahamana studies Veda.

If you had read about the duties and obligations of Brahmana, Kshatriya and Vaishyas, with open mind, you would have immediately understood that they are bound to fall with even a small mistake. What is being said about Sudra cannot be about any other but only these higher castes who fall on account of hatred (which again is Avidya of a single Purusha as all these).

Repeat: If you had read about the duties and obligations of Brahmana, Kshatriya and Vaishyas, with open mind, you would have immediately understood that they are bound to fall with even a small mistake. What is being said about Sudra cannot be about any other but only these higher castes who fall on account of hatred (which again is Avidya of a single Purusha as all these).

Shri Krishna in Gita says (like all scriptures of this Universe) that He sends the demons, who are hard of heart, to lower and lower states. One cannot blame another for one's status. At the same time hard heartedness is the biggest crime, in the eyes of God.


The knowledge of VarNa is enshrined in Veda -- not as a fact of discrete differences but as a fact of based on a single substratum called Purusha.

Do you mean to say that this knowledge can be and should be discarded?

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
01 April 2010, 11:56 PM
Namaste Shri Nara

We had seen the following before.

But maybe that is our mistake: maybe there are no particle positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability.

(Stephen Hawking, 1988)

I know that you are probably an Engineer. So the above meaning should not go waste on you. It is not dissimilar to the phenomena of Adhasya and resultant mistake taught by Shankara.

The mistake occurs because we mostly superimpose our own individuality on the scripture, which says right in the beginning that it is one indivisible truth. Discarding this, one sees only discreteness -- which is a natural mistake. A Sudra is none but that Brahmana actually, but as an effect of separteness has been brought about, it must be overcome by right work and knowledge.

Om Namah Shivaya

harekrishna
02 April 2010, 12:50 AM
Dear Nara,
I have been reading your posts. Though I disagree with many of the points that you have raised, but I like the sincerity and truthfulness. In common terms, it is indeed true that jati and varna are used interchangeability. Jati is considered to belong to a Varna. Indeed, till the beginning of this century, people of that Jati were more or less forces to follow that occupation. They would be persecuted severely, and with heavy punishment, by people who are dominant in that region. Many time, people dominant in that region did not necessarily belong to higher caste. Whichever caste got powerful in the village, ended up persecuting other people. They were all ably supported by born-Brahamna preists, who themselves colluded with these people and lent credibilty from a religious point of view. The Avarnas (Dalit or Harijan) have suffered the most. Driven out of the village as untouchables, they were treated as pariahs. Also called as Musahars, Chamars etc. in north India, they provided menial labor to till the land, dealt with dead animals etc. etc. In short, Hindu soceity fragmented by these divisions, supported by religious heads, was going nuts. After independence, and urbanization, and free access to knowledge much has changed. It is still changing, and I see a more equitable soceity emerging in India.

I would have thought that such a pervasive caste system in Hinduism, it would have a sound basis in Scriptures. But, that is not so. You say that Shankara supports it. May be he did, but it was in his times. At the same time, in Manisha-Panchakam he writes -
ब्रह्मैवाहमिदं जगच्च सकलं चिन्मात्रविस्तारितं
सर्वं चैतदविद्यया त्रिगुणयाशेषं मया कल्पितं ।
इत्थं यस्य दृढा मति: सुखतरे नित्ये परे निर्मले
चाण्डालोस्तु स तु द्विजोस्तु गुरुरित्येषा मनीषा मम ॥
 
I am quite convinced that he is the great Master, be he a Brahmin or an outcaste, who, dwelling on the pure and innite Brahman thinks of himself as that very Brahman, of whose manifestation the whole Universeis,though apparently the Universe is assumed to consist of different things, due to ignorance and the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas and Tamas).


Other people have pointed out similar writings by Madhwa and others.

In Shruti's the Vajra-Shuchika Upanishad clearly writes about Varna being not based on birth. Agreed that this is not a primary Upansihad, but it is indeed listed as 101 Upanishads in Muktikopanishad. At the end, I am attaching this for your reference (taken originally from hindunet.org with my modifications). There is no such Shruti support for birth based Varna.
I agree with you that the present Hundu religious leaders can do better. At Kumbh in 1988 in Prayag, Puri Shakaracharya was extolling the virtues of Sati (burning of wives on husband's pyre). This was at a time, when Rup Kanwar had commited Sati in Rajasthan. Propelled by local religious people, people had created a temple at the site of Sati, which became quite popular. Shankaracharya of Puri is a well read person, and can find verses from the wide selection of Hindu books, and justify it.
However, we must look to Shrutis and critical analysis, to make an absolute assertion about the fact the Sanatana Dharma supports a particular social custom. I havent seen anything in Shruti that unequivocally supports birth based Jati. At the same time, in Vajra-Shuchika, there is unequivocal resistance to this thought.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

Vajra-Shuchika
----------------
ब्राह्मक्षत्रियवैष्यशूद्रा इति चत्वारो वर्णास्तेषां वर्णानां ब्राह्मण एवप्रधान इति वेदवचनानुरूपं स्मृतिभिरप्युक्तम् ।
The Brahmana, Ksatruya, Vaishya and Sudra - these are the four Varnas.
तत्र चोद्यमस्ति को वा ब्राह्मणो नाम किं जीवः किं देहः किं जातिः किंज्ञानं किं कर्म किं धार्मिक इति ॥
Actually who is this whom we refer by the name Brahmana? Is he the subtle body known as) Jiva ? Is he the physical body? Is he caste to which he belongs? Is he the knowledgeable one? Is he the doer? Is he the religious rites he performs?
 
तत्र प्रथमो जीवो ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
अतीतानागतानेकदेहानांजीवस्यैकरूपत्वात् एकस्यापि कर्मवशादनेकदेहसंभवात् सर्वशरीराणांजीवस्यैकरूपत्वाच्च । तस्मात् न जीवो ब्राह्मण इति ॥
Of this the first premise that Brahmana is jiva is not tenable because the same jiva enters different bodies in previous lives. Although it is one, due to the impact of the past deeds and desires the same jiva happens to reside in many bodies.
Therefore a Brahmana is not on account of the jiva.
तर्हि देहो ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
आचाण्डालादिपर्यन्तानां मनुष्याणांपञ्चभौतिकत्वेन देहस्यैकरूपत्वात्
जरामरणधर्माधर्मादिसाम्यदर्शनत् ब्राह्मणः श्वेतवर्णः क्षत्रियोरक्तवर्णो वैश्यः पीतवर्णः शूद्रः कृष्णवर्णः इति नियमाभावात् ।
पित्रादिशरीरदहने पुत्रादीनां ब्रह्महत्यादिदोषसंभवाच्च ।तस्मात् न देहो ब्राह्मण इति ॥
Then coming to the statement that the body is Brahmana, this also is not acceptable because universally the body is composed of the self same five elements, from the Brahmanas down to the Chandala and subject to the same processes of old age and death, good and evil in all. One cannot also generalize that the Brahmanas have white complexion, the Kshatriyas red complexion, the Vaishyas brown complexion and the Sudras dark complexion. Besides the bodies can become tainted with such sins as the killing of Brahmans, improper cremation of bodies by their descendents and so on. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of the body.
तर्हि जाति ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
तत्रजात्यन्तरजन्तुष्वनेकजातिसंभवात् महर्षयो बहवः सन्ति ।
ऋष्यशृङ्गो मृग्याः,कौशिकः कुशात्,जाम्बूको जाम्बूकात्,वाल्मीकोवाल्मीकात्,व्यासः कैवर्तकन्यकायाम्,शशपृष्ठात् गौतमः, वसिष्ठ उर्वश्याम्,अगस्त्यः कलशे जात इति शृतत्वात् ।
एतेषांजात्या विनाप्यग्रे ज्ञानप्रतिपादिता ऋषयो बहवः सन्ति ।
तस्मात्न जाति ब्राह्मण इति ॥
Then it is said that a Brahmana is so because of his caste. This is not acceptable because there are diverse communities in the world, even in the animal world, and the seers and sages come from different communities. We have heard from the sacred scriptures that many seers were of animal origin. Rishyasringa was born of a deer, Kaushika came from the grass, Jambuka from a Jackal, Valkimi from an ant hill, Vyasa from a fisher girl, Gautama from the back of a hare, Vashista from the celestial nymph Urvasi, Agastya from an earthen vessel. Among these many have attained the highest rank, despite of their lower birth and given proof of their wisdom. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of his community.
 
तर्हि ज्ञानं ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
क्षत्रियादयोऽपिपरमार्थदर्शिनोऽभिज्ञा बहवः सन्ति ।
तस्मात् न ज्ञानं ब्राह्मण इति ॥
The argument that knowledge makes a Brahmana is also not acceptable because many Kshatriyas and others have seen the Highest Reality and attained perfect knowledge. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of his knowledge.
 
तर्हि कर्म ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
सर्वेषां प्राणिनांप्रारब्धसञ्चितागामिकर्मसाधर्म्यदर्शनात्कर्माभिप्रेरिताः सन्तो जनाःक्रियाः कुर्वन्तीति ।
तस्मात् न कर्म ब्राह्मण इति ॥
That karma make a Brahmana is not acceptable because we see the existence of prarabdha and sanchita karma in all beings. Impelled by their previous karma only all the saintly people perform their deeds. Therefore a Brahmana is not so jsut because of karma.
 
तर्हि धार्मिको ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
क्षत्रियादयो हिरण्यदातारो बहवःसन्ति ।
तस्मात् न धार्मिको ब्राह्मण इति ॥
Then it is also not true that on account of dharma (religious duty or activity) is a Brahmana. There are many Kshatriyas who have given away gold as charity. Therefore a Brahmana is not just on account of dharma
 
तर्हि को वा ब्रह्मणो नाम ।
यः कश्चिदात्मानमद्वितीयं जातिगुणक्रियाहीनंषडूर्मिषड्भावेत्यादिसर्वदोषरहितं सत्यज्ञानानन्दानन्तस्वरूपंस्वयंनिर्विकल्पमशेषकल्पाधारमशेषभूतान्तर्यामित्वेनवर्तमानमन्तर्यहिश्चाकाशवद नुस्यूतमखण्डानन्दस्वभावमप्रमेयं
अनुभवैकवेद्यमपरोक्षतया भासमानं करतळामलकवत्साक्षादपरोक्षीकृत्यकृतार्थतयाकामरागादिदोषरहितः शमदमादिसंपन्नो भाव मात्सर्य
तृष्णा आशा मोहादिरहितो दम्भाहङ्कारदिभिरसंस्पृष्टचेता वर्ततएवमुक्तलक्षणो यः स एव ब्राह्मणेति शृतिस्मृतीतिहासपुराणाभ्यामभिप्रायः अन्यथा हि ब्राह्मणत्वसिद्धिर्नास्त्येव ।
 
Then who is to be known by the name Brahmana? He who succeeds in perceiving directly the self without a second like an amalaka fruit in the palm of his hand, who is devoid of the distinction of caste, trait and action, who is devoid of all the faults such as the six imperfections and the six states of being, who is of the nature of truth, knowledge, bliss and infinity, who is self existent, without will power, but the impeller and supporter of all will power, who exists in all as the indwelling spirit, who is within and without of all like the ether, who is of the nature of indivisible bliss, immeasurable, known only through ones direct experience, who manifests himself directly as truth, who has successfully overcome such imperfections as desire and passion, who is filled with the riches of tranquility, who has eliminated from his being such states as envy, greed and infatuation, who lives unaffected by such things as ostentation and egoism- these aforesaid qualities make up a Brahmana.
 

atanu
02 April 2010, 01:02 AM
If I am allowed to lighten up the heavy heart a bit, though again the attempt may be a failure?

It is an event of sometime back when my daughters were aged 4 and 9. I was working one morning, when I heard an altercation between two darlings of mine. I could not hear the full matter of their dispute but I heard the following:

The older one asked the younger: "Do you think that you are very ingellitent?"

The younger one retorted "You are a beskoof."

:)

I try to remember that my thoughts and actions may be as ingellitent or as beskoof as above. But i am convinced that eventually beskoofi prevails.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
02 April 2010, 01:37 AM
Dear Nara,
I have been reading your posts. Though I disagree with many of the points that you have raised, but I like the sincerity and truthfulness.

Namaste harekrishna

I personally laud your post.

Any human with logical sense of justice and goodness may balk at reading of scripture, just as we may balk at many sayings of scriptures of various religions. Yet I at least cannot assume that Purusha Suktam is a political tool of Brahmanas. I also cannot even imagine that Shankara or Ramanuja were just furthering this assumed political goal. I do not know whether I am wrong to assume that if they did not oppose a sruti as null and void then they must have done that with goodwill for all.

Shankara (and Ramnuja and Madhava) accept the injunction of sruti that Vedic scripture and rituals are barred for some. At the same time Shankara cites Manu Smriti to say that 'Sudra is pure'. He goes on to say, citing, Mahabharata that Purana and Itihas are not barred. He further concludes, taking example of Vidura and other such pure enquirer that KNOWLEDGE is not barred from any one.

One can read Shankara Bhashya to confirm the above. You have also cited enough proof in support.

Further, Buddha, who did not use scripture but arrived at His independent understanding, did not teach that Hinduism was evil on account of teaching of varna. Then why should Dr. Ambedkar do so?

I feel that it is true that scripture (sruti) should not be for all. Example of Osama is before us.

In this regard, i can now cite Shri Ramana Maharshi who was not of any caste and he equally gave his grace to all who came to Him. He in fact taught to all that the world, asrama, the caste, the divisions, the wars, etc. etc. that one cognises and acts upon are not separate from oneself who is the seer and knower, which is the ultimate truth. Yet, He also said: "It is not good to throw out religious conventions but it is advisable to contemplate on why a convention."

He further taught, as the ultimate, that "The seeing is by the seer. The seeing (and subsequent interpretation and action) is not outside of the seer."

I know that the last teaching will not be comprehended by all and thus is not for all. So, we must know that a jiva, who thinks that it is body, actually is all pervasive, before we can understand the import of scripture.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
02 April 2010, 04:11 AM
Namaste HK,

Thanks for a beautiful post ! :)

VajrashUshikA is one of the main 108 Upanishads & it is as authoritative as Shruti as any of the other parts of Vedas. It completely rejects the "varna by birth" theory. I have also quoted many other texts from our religious scriptures that "Varna by birth" neither has support of the Vedas nor it was followed by the Hindu Society as has been indicated in Manu Smriti. Even Manu Smriti acknowledges assimilation of various foreign invader tribes into Hindu social structure (as kashtriyas). The history tells us that there were many powerful Sudra Kings & they had matrimonial relationship with many of the Kshatriya kings. The ancient history is testimony to the fact that the Manu’s laws were not strictly followed in case of many examples.

That said, we cannot deny that the caste discrimination did irreparable damage to Hindu society. On one hand we readily accepted the invading tribes as kshatriyas & on the other hand tried to be too hard on our own people in the name of Manu Smriti. However, the atrocities committed on so called untouchables was not only due to Manu Smriti … as we have seen how Manu Smriti was not followed in case of powerful dynasties and individuals. This was due to the feudal mindset of the powerful class & that was not exclusive to Hindus in India. This mentality has been there in all races & countries. This mentality was in Romans and British & similar civilized societies where the society was divided in different classes.

However, people like Nara are happy to dissociate themselves from Hindu society as a whole & pay lip service to Hindu society as if they are its well-wishers … and that is where my objection lies. If you have dissociated yourselves from Hindu Society and are ashamed to call yourself a Hindu, you have no right to criticize us from a distance. This is only to push our morale down as a community and as a Nation. This cannot do any good to us. If someone from outside criticises us, it is ok … but not one who once was a Hindu & now declares himself a non-Hindu.

There have been many Hindus who have done a lot to eradicate the evils of casteism within Hindu society & they are the real well-wishers of Hindu society. If someone’s heart really bleeds for the downtrodden within Hindu society, let him work towards upliftment of it. These scriptures were in place in the time of Dayananda Sarasvati, Mahatma Gandhi, Dr Rajendra Prasad, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Swami Vivekananda, Ramkrishna Paramhansa, Sant Tuka Ram, Paramhansa Yogananda and many other prominent personalities within Hinduism. They never chose to sit down and keep criticizing everything that is Hindu. They instead chose to correct the system & still keeping the morale of the Hindus high.

What is situation today ? The situation is almost reverse today, if that gives Mr Nara some satisfaction. It has become a sort of curse to be born in a so-called upper caste family. There are many Brahmins who have no means to have two times meals everyday but their wards won’t get any special privilege to study or for a job. There are many brahmin girls who could not be married for want of money and committed suicide or were killed by parents. The situation of a poor upper caste's born person is bleak ... he has no future in India today unless he is exceptionally brilliant. On the other hand, son of a Sudra millionaire or even the son of the Prime Minister of India is entitled to special reservations in schools, colleges and jobs. Today, it is not the problem of discrimination against the so-called lower castes within Hinduism … it is the discrimination against the so-called upper castes which is the main problem today.

The times keep changing … & so the problems within a society. Laudable are those who remain within that society and keep contributing towards the betterment of the society as a whole & not those who adopt foreign sanskriti, citizenship and feel proud to dissociate from that society. I lot has changed since my childhood days within India. I have seen criminal discrimination against the so-called untouchables and was against it at that time and I am also seeing today the so called Brahmin and other castes being maltreated at the hands of powerful Sudras and I am against this reverse discrimination too.

OM

Ashvati
02 April 2010, 08:36 AM
Recently, one of the Christian members of HDF suggested that Christians must focus on the Sermon of the Mount, and not on the theology of resurrection.


Oh I'm not christian, I haven't been for over 2 years, I'm hindu, looking into formal conversion as a saiva :)

Nara
02 April 2010, 08:43 AM
Oh I'm not christian, I haven't been for over 2 years, I'm hindu, looking into formal conversion as a saiva :)

I assumed and made an ass out of me, I apologize....

peace ....

Ashvati
02 April 2010, 09:05 AM
Heh no problem. I get people mistaking my religion all the time. Most people I meet in person assume I'm a buddhist because of my shaved head and wearing my mala around my wrist. There are definitely far worse things to be mistaken for :p

atanu
02 April 2010, 10:55 AM
Greetings my fellow humans!
I will respond to any comment that is free of Ad Hominem.

Namaste Nara

The above itself is an ad hominen.



Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?

8.270 says Shudra are of low origin.
2.31 says a Shudra must be named something contemptible
3.164 equates a breeder of sporting-dogs, a falconer, one who defiles maidens, he who delights in injuring living creatures, he who gains his subsistence, with Shudra.
8.147 says a Brahmana can just seize the goods of Shudra for he is not permitted to have any property
9.178 says a son a Brahmana begets through lust on a Shudra female is a living corpse -- who is to determine it is by lust or true love, I don’t know!!
10.129 says a Shudra is not allowed to accumulate wealth because Shudra with wealth will give pain to Brahmanas.
11.131 & 132 equate the punishment for murdering a Shudra with that of cat, dog, frog, bird, etc. The punishment can be as mild and beneficial to Brahmana as giving ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana.Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate. -----what is the need for these degrading injunctions?

One may be tempted to brush aside Manu Smrithi as an unimportant or irrelevant text. But, if you did, you will be contradicting great acharyas like Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja, ---- A widely respected commentator of the acclaimed Tamil text on morality called Thirukkural, who happens to be Brahmin (Parimelazhagar), uses MS extensively ----
Cheers!

Namaste Shri Nara

Yes that Shankara, Ramanuja, and Shri Krishna taught that dharma shastra must be followed, should be reason enough for Hindus to agree. But this is kali Yuga.

Manu Smriti is called Dharma Shastra, which can only be discarded on complete submission to Ishwara/atman. That is what is the Brahmanhood all about, spoken of in Vajrasuchika U., quoted in this thread. It is unfortunate that some of us, without comprehending what the complete surrender means, think that Dharma Shastra is not valid, is corrupt etc etc and can be discarded. Has Krishna said so? Shri Krishna has taught that karma must be done as per nidhi -- as per Dharma Shastra. Where else is niti described?

Dharma can be forgotten only under one condition. Whether that condition is fulfilled or not will surely be judged by Ishwara. Even Manu Smriti teaches the following as the highest karma , goal, and attainement. This is what Brahmana is and a true Brahman cannot distinguish between a Brahmana and a Chandala.

12.118. Let (every Brahmana), concentrating his mind, fully recognise in the Self all things, both the real and the unreal, for he who recognises the universe in the Self, does not give his heart to unrighteousness.

12.125. He who thus recognises the Self through the Self in all created beings, becomes equal (-minded) towards all, and enters the highest state, Brahman.



On the other hand, a Brahmana is not better that a Pishaca or a Sudra for a small offence against the law:

12.56. A Brahmana who drinks (the spirituous liquor called) Sura shall enter (the bodies) of small and large insects, of moths, of birds, feeding on ordure, and of destructive beasts.
10.92. By (selling) flesh, salt, and lac a Brahmana at once becomes an outcast; by selling milk he becomes (equal to) a Sudra in three days.
11.25. A Brahmana who, having begged any property for a sacrifice, does not use the whole (for that purpose), becomes for a hundred years a (vulture of the kind called) Bhasa, or a crow.
4.190. A Brahmana who neither performs austerities nor studies the Veda, yet delights in accepting gifts, sinks with the (donor into hell), just as (he who attempts to cross over in) a boat made of stone (is submerged) in the water

I have just shown a few injunctions. A Brahmana by birth has to follow the code of conduct to be entitled to be called a Brahmana, else he is sudra or worse. Similar injunctions are there against born Kshatriya or vaishya. The point is that when an opportunity has been given by a suitable environment to the Second Born, non-utilisation of that opportunity leads to fall. The Brahmana hood is not a RIGHT, it is an obligation. Once a Brahmana falls, all that is said about Sudra is true of that Brahmana. Moreover, continued birth as a Brahmana is not ensured. On the other hand, it is easy to lose that.

Repeat: Once a Brahmana falls, all that is said about Sudra is true of that Brahmana.

One more important point. MS emphatically says:

12.94. The Veda is the eternal eye of the manes, gods, and men; the Veda-ordinance (is) both beyond the sphere of (human) power, and beyond the sphere of (human) comprehension; that is a certain fact

Lacking understanding of Veda and MS, Shri Nara's blind statement "Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate", is the vilest. To me, it betrays an all knowing attitude.

Gotra by birth is an opportunity to act in beneficial way. But without fulfilling the obligations the claim of Brahmanahood is not automatic. rather it works in reverse way. Moreover, a true Brahmana cannot discriminate, because by definition, he is to see Atma in All and His main duty is to teach all about this alone. It is clear that everyone born, who has not already surrendered fully has duty -- which is described as tenfold, chief of which is working for All.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
02 April 2010, 11:30 AM
Gandhi said untouchability is a blot on Hinduism. Some 60 years later Manmohan Singh says untouchability is a blot on humanity. Those who want to say untouchability is not in the Varna system are only obfuscating.

Kindly read Gandhi fully. Untouchabilty and varNa are not same. Gandhiji has not asked anyone to shun varNa dharma, which is enshrined in Veda.


-----There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty.

Well. Kanchi Pontiff has directly held Brahmins responsible for forgetting the equality and obligations.


-----God is said to have designed this system, and this almighty god designed a system that was so easily subverted by mere humans? With all his omnipotence and omniscience, why did he not design a system that people could follow properly?

It will always be like that due to gunas of mind. Have the societies where varNa been not taught formally been free of exploitation, violence and war? I think for last 5 thousand years, most wars have taken place in non-hindu cultures. varNa knowledge in fact helps us to take responsibilty for oneself and society.

The problems are on account of rajas and tamas of mind which reflects in VarNa. The knowledge is to overcome these negativities and not to accentuate them.

Om Namah Shivaya

Nara
02 April 2010, 11:38 AM
Dear harekrishna, greetings!

I agree with you that Brahmins are not solely responsible for the caste/varna system and the attendant discriminatory practices. Further, it is also very likely that the gradation of castes in the Varna hierarchy is somewhat fluid. With increased economic and numerical strength some castes probably moved up the ladder at the expense of other castes. However, Brahmins always stayed on the top and Dalits at the bottom.

Further, as you point out, the Brahmin always formed a lucrative alliance with the dominant caste. In any case, my indictment is not necessarily against any particular caste, but against this hierarchical system that is at the root of so much of wickedness. The consequences of this pernicious system in today’s body politic in India are there for all to see and lament.

You mentioned Manisha-Panchakam and that only introduces a contradiction that followers of Adi Shankara has to address. In this context, Azhvar poems stand out. They are completely free of any reference to Manu or any derogatory stuff that you find in the Bhashyas. They make two contrasting cases, sort of carrot and stick, that strike at the core of Varna system.

On the carrot side, Nammazhvar, a Shudra, urges everyone to take Vishnu Bhakthas, even if they were born Chandala, as their master’s master’s, master’s, master. On the stick side, Thondaradippodi Azvar, a Brahmin, gives a blistering rebuke upon anyone who looks down upon Vishnu Bhakthas on account of their “low” birth status. He says even if he is a leader among Chatur Vedees, he will turn into a Chandala if he even so much as thinks lowly of a Vishnu Bhakta based on caste.

From temple records of Sri Rangam and Thiruppati Thirmalai, it seems there were Brahmins who took Azhvar’s call seriously and relinquished their Brahmin varna. They took away their yagyapaveetam and dedicated their lives to serving temple and bhaktas. They are called Sattada Sri vaishnavas. Even this bold experiment started by Azhvars and Sri Vaishnavas some 1000 years ago, applied only to Vishnu bhakthas. But, in due course of time, the Brahmin orthodoxy managed to turn the Sattada Sri Vaishnavas into another endogamous caste.

I appreciate you citing Vajrashuchika Upanishad. It does give a nuanced explanation, but it is limited to who can be considered a Brahmana. There is no mention of Varna system. Therefore, it is hard to accept your argument that this Upanishad “clearly rejects” birth-based Varna.

Further, this opens up another huge problem I have with Varna. I feel this ambiguity in who is a “brahmana” is quite self-serving. On the one hand it is claimed a Brahmana is not by birth, but only as described in Vajrashuchika. On the other hand, for all intents and practical purposes, only birth determines who a Brahmana is. Why can’t we simply say that a person described in Vajrashuchika is a wise person, a paramaikantin, a yogi, or something that cannot be obfuscated with the Brahmin Varna? Wouldn't that not make it easy to free Hinduism of the caste system that hangs like a millstone around its neck.

Cheers!

harekrishna
02 April 2010, 11:55 AM
Namaste HK,

Thanks for a beautiful post ! :)


What is situation today ? The situation is almost reverse today, if that gives Mr Nara some satisfaction. ..

OM

Devotee jee, Atanu Jee -
Thanks for your kind words. Indeed, reservation in India today only helps those people who are of backward caste AND affluent. They hold the strings of power and do not want to change it. Poor people are left out. In India, poverty is the biggest issue. Recent data shows that almost 80% of people live on less than Rs 20 (0.5 dollar) per day. The single biggest reason that this lot is not improving is corruption and siphoning off of money intended for developmental work. It is really bad, and the theft that is occuring overshadows what British did. It is getting off the point, but could not stop commenting on it.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

harekrishna
02 April 2010, 12:20 PM
Greetings Nara,



... In this context, Azhvar poems stand out. ... On the carrot side, Nammazhvar, a Shudra, urges everyone to take Vishnu Bhakthas, even if they were born Chandala, as their master’s master’s, master’s, master. ...

Interesting. Would read more about them.


Further, this opens up another huge problem I have with Varna. I feel this ambiguity in who is a “brahmana” is quite self-serving. On the one hand it is claimed a Brahmana is not by birth, but only as described in Vajrashuchika. On the other hand, for all intents and practical purposes, only birth determines who a Brahmana is. Why can’t we simply say that a person described in Vajrashuchika is a wise person, a paramaikantin, a yogi, or something that cannot be obfuscated with the Brahmin Varna? Wouldn't that not make it easy to free Hinduism of the caste system that hangs like a millstone around its neck.


Vajra-Shuchika says that a Brahmana is not by birth. Brahmana is part of Varna, so in a way it implies that Varna is not birth based.

In most of Vedopanishad, Varna is discussed very infrequently. So, I am not sure if this was a big deal then. Also, recent genetic research papers published show that Indian soceity is pretty mixed, so people did mix with each other, and between different castes.

Today's existing Jati system is way too complicated to understand all the nuances. So many people have tried to end it, only to make caste-system so much stronger. Caste system relies on some very important soceital functions. Breaking these breaks the caste bondages as well. Look at these -
(1) Marriage only between caste members - Inter-caste marriage is on the rise. Recent India Today data shows almost half of urban india is going for inter-caste marrieage.
(2) Scriptural knowledge (and in olden times, most of knowledge) limited to caste members - Modern education is widely available to all people. With the internet, the knowledge is even more easily available to most of the people.
(3) Credit system availability only to caste members - Previously the trading community held the purse. Modern banking systems allow availability of capital. You can see now non-banias doing big businesses as well.

It is still someway to go before caste withers away, we will see.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

Eastern Mind
02 April 2010, 12:43 PM
It is still someway to go before caste withers away, we will see.



It's not just caste in India, its the widespread unfair distribution or wealth on the planet. Its sexism. male chauvinism, racism, ethnocentricity, old money, greed. Here are a few examples outside of India:

Did the Queen or England or other royalty earn in any way that undue respect?

Do First Nation aboriginals in Canada, USA, Australia, and others deserve the treatment they get? They are the outcastes of developed nations. Indians of India who think the west is such a wonderful place should have a look at a Northern Canadian First Nations reservation where alcoholism, unemployment is rampant and the government is in denial.

Do minority groups in so called democracies, (Sri Lanka, Indian workers in the middle east, Muslims in France, Mexican workers in California) really deserve their status?

Tibet?

The huge favelas (slums) of Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro?

The Catholic Church's ongoing absurdity concerning pedophile priests and years of abuse and destruction of other cultures.

People who criticize the caste system in India need to wake up and have a look at the rest of the world as well. Otherwise its just plain hypocrisy.

Aum Namasivaya

saidevo
02 April 2010, 12:59 PM
namaste everyone.

I am surprised that no one is talking about the interpolations in Manusmriti. Here are some references (emphasis added):

The good things in Manu Smriti By K.V. Paliwal
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=139&page=33

Fourth the main cause of rejecting MS by the VHP appears mainly due to the presence of large scale interpolations in it. Such a case is not only in MS, but also in other Smrities, Puranas and other ancient Hindus scriptures except the Vedas. These interpolations are unvedic, unhuman, illogical and irrevalent and are against the basic Vedic concepts and doctrines of Manu; and were noticed by the scholars since the 9th century, particularly after the theo-political impact of Muslims in India. According to Dr Rustagi and Dr Narang, different scholars have observed that out of total 2,684 shlokas of MS, 100 to 1,502 shlokas are interpolated, in the existing editions of MS, mostly in those chapters dealing with social, legal and political aspects of life(Manu?Manu Smriti and Appraisal).

Dr B.R. Ambedkar used about 300 shlokas of MS in his works (BAW5 Vols. 1, 3.4, 5 &7, 1979-90), and about 235 shlokas were related to Brahmans, women and Shudras, 84 per cent of which were interpolated, and his criticism was mainly due to these interpolations (Paliwal, 1998, Manu Ambedkar and Caste System, p. 55). However Dr Ambedkar accepted no untouchability in MS, and full respect to the Sudras upto Mahabharata period, and Shudras are Aryas. He also acknowledged that Manu did not create the present day birth based caste system.

In view of this problem of interpolations in MS, Prof Surendra Kumar after critically examining and deleting the interpolated shlokas, published Vishuddha Manu Smriti in 1986, which is at par with the Vedic concepts of Manu. It is now fully authentic as per the basic doctrines of the Vedas and is free from all types of criticisms and has been well received by scholars and Hindu Dharamacharyas.

Manusmriti article in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusm?ti

Surendra Kumar, who counts a total of 2,685 verses, finds that only 1,214 are authentic, the other 1,471 being interpolations on the text.[26] In reply to the criticism of the sudra caste, the verses critical of the sudras and women are considered to be later interpolations, but not later than Adi Shankara (7th-8th century CE). The law in Manu Smriti also appears to be overtly positive towards the brahmin (priest) caste in terms of concessions made in fines and punishments. The stance of the Manu Smriti about women has also been debated. While certain verses such as (III - 55, 56, 57, 59, 62) glorify the position of women, other verses (IX - 3, 17) seem to attack the position and freedom women have. The education of women is also discussed in the text. Certain interpretations of Verse (IX - 18) claim that it discourages women from reading Vedic scriptures. Verse (II - 240), however, allows women to read Vedic scriptures. Similar contradictory phrases are encountered in relation to child marriage in verses (IX - 94) and (IX - 90).

More details in this search:
http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=%22manu+smriti%22+interpolations&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Dr.Surendra Kumar compiled a 'Vishuddha Manusmriti' which is purged of interpolations with a Hindi translation. The book was published Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi. Also check his booklet 'Opposition to Manu: Why?' which can be downloaded at http://www.scribd.com/doc/13929442/Why-Oppose-Manu-Criticisms-on-Manu-Smriti-Answered

vivendi
02 April 2010, 01:00 PM
Dear brother Nara – I am going to critique some of your points but I also have some credits. Like I told before whether you want to respond or not is upto you. I write for myself and for others. Overall you have hardly made a scenario to prove that varna is a blot. Just poking brahmins does not do any good. Past is past. Under present circumstances varna is hardly a blot and let me show you the blots in the post.


Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?

Why? Lets see if it was answered by you.


If a claim is made that a nuanced understanding of the texts is needed to really appreciate that Varna has nothing to do with birth, only Jati does, then one might ask how a common man can be expected to see this nuance when even great Acharyas like Adi Shanaka and Bhagavat Ramanuja did not? You keep saying this but have not provided proof except your own interpretations of geeta and Upanishads. Which works of Bhagavat Ramanuja say that a brhamin is by birth only?


So, for the enlightened and the uninitiated alike, in the fine points of scripture for the former and daily life for the later, Varna and Jati mean either about the same thing or the same thing. varna cannot be determined by experience but by enlightenment. To put it in across so you can understand, it is just like how a bodhisattava sees nihility that an arhant cannot see. That is what the Kanchi seer also says that varna cannot be determined by seeing, and then he goes on to say that only jati is considered.



If the child does not like this system after growing up, he/she is not even allowed to abandon it. Shudras are threatened with severe punishment if the injections are not followed. The punishments meted out to Shambuka and Ekalaiva are just two examples of this. Even if these are just stories, they served as powerful warnings to Shudras, look what can happen if you try to challenge the system. So do Brahmins have suffered severe punishment if injections and vaccinations are not followed per schedule. Ravana, supranaksha, kumbakarna are great examples of Brahmins who suffered severe punishment because they did not like injections.


If the Varna system promises a cushy life for Shudras, would they not be happy to stay in that station and never try to free themselves from Shudrahood? Why then take the trouble of warning them of severe consequences if they transgress? seriously good point. They obviously have no place to go further down. They are already at the bottom.


Gautama Smrithi says Shudra are like cemetery and warns that the ears of a Shudra who hear the chanting of Vedas must be filled with molten lead. If he dares reciting Vedas his tongue is to be slit and his body is to be cut. What is the point of such harshness? Tut tut if I read Buddhist sutras for just to criticize them then there are many such blunders there too. I hardly know the essence of the sutras but is perfectly capable of poking holes at them with my face value knowledge of the pali language.


But, what is very disheartening is the fact that both Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite the above injunctions to establish that Vedas should not be taught to Shudra. The practice of keeping out Shudra from Vedic study is followed even in these modern times. No Veda Pathashala run by Brahmnical institutions will accept a Shudra child in their midst. You are right. But if you read that link, the Kanchi seer says that it is not possible to find out varna by an average man. So he has to go by jati alone.


Some argue that Varnashrama darma is a means by which one purifies one’s soul, a prerequisite for moksha. They further assert that there is no gradation in Varna, all duties are to be performed as Bhagavat Aradanam. The job of a priest is not superior to that of a toilet cleaner. Again, all this is fine if these are voluntary. If you willingly and voluntarily and in full knowledge, believe in this doctrine, then no one has the right to take this experience away from you. But this Varna system is not based on consent. It is imposed on people at the time of birth. There are times I agree with Buddhists who have undertaken the right to shoot at hindus. This is one of those times. The Kanchi seer’s link will help in setting this misconception right.


People of “low” birth are kept illiterate so that they never would know any better. Just look at the following injunctions against Shudra described in Manu Smrithi.
8.270 says Shudra are of low origin.
• 2.31 says a Shudra must be named something contemptible
• 3.164 equates a breeder of sporting-dogs, a falconer, one who defiles maidens, he who delights in injuring living creatures, he who gains his subsistence, with Shudra.
• 8.147 says a Brahmana can just seize the goods of Shudra for he is not permitted to have any property
• 9.178 says a son a Brahmana begets through lust on a Shudra female is a living corpse -- who is to determine it is by lust or true love, I don’t know!!
• 10.129 says a Shudra is not allowed to accumulate wealth because Shudra with wealth will give pain to Brahmanas.
• 11.131 & 132 equate the punishment for murdering a Shudra with that of cat, dog, frog, bird, etc. The punishment can be as mild and beneficial to Brahmana as giving ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana. MS is referring to a shudra. None of the above statements say that it is referring to shudra by birth. Unitl you come up specifically with a verse that says a shudra is a shudra by birth, you are shooting bubbles in the air.


Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate. Some may see humor in this, but normal people are rightly mortified by all this degrading vitriol piled upon a group of people just because they were born Shudra. If the Varna system is for purifying one’s soul, that will lead to enlightenment someday, what is the need for these degrading injunctions? Vitriol is piled upon Brahmins too. Read the Puranas and you will see a a number of brhamins who were punished so much that they felt they should have never been born.


Based on all these, saying the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism is, IMO, callously mild. Why? Is it because all the shudras have either embraced islam or Buddhism because they read these verses and thought it was the Brahmins on top making their life miserable? Or it is because the system piles vitriol on shudras. The system also piles vitriol on Brahmins forgetting their own dharma and going after pleasures.



Some people say this is not the fault of the Varna system, Brahmanas are not involved; it is all political and economic. Why then are the conflicts falling along caste lines? A poor upper caste may find his lot not very different from that of a poor Dalit, but he will still side with the rich of his own caste. There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty. You probably have not seen Brahmins in poverty, only the version shown on tv news where one dalit is oppressed, and that too by a non-brahmin, but Brahmins are to blame even though some cop is beating a dalit. Brahmins can also say their life is miserable because they hardly get a well placed job or education because of 99% reservations to dalits, Christians, and muslims?


Another defense some offer is that people don’t follow the Varna system as intended. If only they did, everything will be perfect. If this was so, then we have to blame the one who designed this system in the first place. God is said to have designed this system, and this almighty god designed a system that was so easily subverted by mere humans? With all his omnipotence and omniscience, why did he not design a system that people could follow properly? So it all comes to this. That is the whole purpose of the post. God is the problem. God is the one who created all this mayhem. So stop believing in god and make plans to accept enlightenment where there is no need to belive in an evil god.


Some defend the Varna system from purely religious doctrinal grounds such as Advaitam. They say, in the ultimate, difference is unreal and so on. Those who find such doctrinal defense perfectly legitimate, without any sense of irony, are not averse to criticize things they find objectionable in other religions. Makes sense !


Caste/Varna system continues to dog our society in a myriad of ways. It has divided our nation into caste groups that are at each other’s throats all the time. Except a few racists here and there, a system that discriminates based on birth is universally despised. Article 2 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights made in 1948 says the following: Any country that is thousands of years old is expected to have number of castes. America is 200 years old and it already has so many divisions within itself. Imagine when it is 5000 years old. It would be fragmented within by several different ideologies. A senseful human will not blame it on the varna system, but to the nature of things.


With world opinion settled against decent based discrimination of any kind, continued support for Varna system on any basis will only have negative impact on how Hinduism is viewed. This is why Varna system is a blot that must be removed as quickly and as completely as possible. From now on all parents should not encourage their children. They should spend their savings on all others children. Otherwise they would be judged against the world opinion that descent based discrimination of any kind is bad.


As we have seen in the past few days, Varna is a controversial topic. People come with a particular POV and are quick to accuse others of misunderstanding the whole thing. I suppose you do not exclude yourself from the ‘people with a particular POV’. I wonder how people think their particular POV is more sacred than other people who also have particular POV.

I have said all this because I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist. If there must be a religion for society to prosper, then I rather it is Hinduism of Bhagavat Ramjanuja’s kind where the Iswara is not a blob of useless consciousness, but a loving god ever separated from each of us. I have responded to you brother Nara because I am fond of you.
No? you don’t think so? I do think the anti varna post was a blot and I did my best to poke holes every way I can, but I do respect you immensely.

atanu
02 April 2010, 01:09 PM
In the heart of Dharma Shastra is the following:

Chapter II

1. Learn that sacred law which is followed by men learned (in the Veda) and assented to in their hearts by the virtuous, who are ever exempt from hatred and inordinate affection.

2. To act solely from a desire for rewards is not laudable, yet an exemption from that desire is not (to be found) in this (world): for on (that) desire is grounded the study of the Veda and the performance of the actions, prescribed by the Veda.

3. The desire (for rewards), indeed, has its root in the conception that an act can yield them, and in consequence of (that) conception sacrifices are performed; vows and the laws prescribing restraints are all stated to be kept through the idea that they will bear fruit.

4. Not a single act here (below) appears ever to be done by a man free from desire; for whatever (man) does, it is (the result of) the impulse of desire.

5. He who persists in discharging these (prescribed duties) in the right manner, reaches the deathless state and even in this (life) obtains (the fulfilment of) all the desires that he may have conceived.
---------------------

Krishna paramatman teaches that the Dharma as per nidhi must be performed. If Azhvars and Shaiva saints have shown that Bhakti does not require any caste considerations, that is not in contradiction to Manu Smriti.

A true follower of Manu Smriti cannot go against the teaching:

2.1. Learn that sacred law which is followed by men learned (in the Veda) and assented to in their hearts by the virtuous, who are ever exempt from hatred and inordinate affection.

12.125. He who thus recognises the Self through the Self in all created beings, becomes equal (-minded) towards all, and enters the highest state, Brahman.


Shri Nara makes his sweeping remarks without knowing the meaning. Manusmriti does not teach untouchability but a value of virtue which is ever free of hatred. I doubt that if Shri Nara continues to attack the scriptures, instead of inspecting the real cause of all problems, which is hatred, then there is ever going to emerge a consensus understanding.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
02 April 2010, 01:23 PM
Again at the heart of Dharma Shastra is this:

2.23. That land where the black antelope naturally roams, one must know to be fit for the performance of sacrifices; (the tract) different from that (is) the country of the Mlekkhas (barbarians).


Dharma Shastra of sacrifice cannot be for all.

Om Namah Shivaya

Nara
02 April 2010, 04:14 PM
.....Vajra-Shuchika says that a Brahmana is not by birth. Brahmana is part of Varna, so in a way it implies that Varna is not birth based.

Dear harekrishna, so it is a matter of interpretation, not at all clear cut as you said earlier.

Even here, I feel uncomfortable accepting what you are saying. Vajrashuchika does not say anyone with the qualities described is a brahmana regardless of birth. All we can say from this Upanishad is birth is not a sufficient condition for brahmanahood.

The Upanishad starts out with denying Brahmanahood for jiva or body. Then it rejects Brahmanahood as a result of jati, knowledge, karma, or dharma. Then it defines certain set of qualities some religious and others secular, and finally declares that only he with these qualities is a Brahmana.

Now, is it saying a Shudra by birth exhibiting these qualities is also a Brahamna? If you say yes, then I have to say there are two Brahamanas, one described in the Upanishad and one that is part of the Varana system, and the one from the Varna system is definitely birth based.

All this ambiguity is due to the dual usage of the term “brahmana” and as I said earlier, it is quite self-serving.

Cheers!

atanu
02 April 2010, 04:38 PM
namaste everyone.

I am surprised that no one is talking about the interpolations in Manusmriti. Here are some references (emphasis added):



Namaste saidevoji

In my opinion:

Shri Shankara and Shri Ramanuja quote Manu Sm. 10th Chapter in their bhashyas to indicate that Vedic rituals and verses are not to be given to sudras. Shankara additionally says that Knowledge is not barred to Sudra. Similarly, Kanchi seer, Sivananda, and even ISCKON and other Hindu teachers have not pointed anything amiss in MS. They hold MS as Dharma Shastra without any question. Shri Krishna teaches that dharma should be practised as per nidhi. By rejecting, anything in scripture (MS in this case) we admit that the scripture is not protected by God. Moreover, there is a chance that we distort the scripture. However, smriti is usually time constrained. But MS itself speaks of changed scenario during kali and also attributes the Moola Dharma to the Vedas, which is timeless.

(In Vedas also some can point out violence, caste, discrimination etc. Kanchi pontiff thus warns that the revealed scripture should not be subjected to historical analysis. )

Actually, just as it is possible for one to stick to one's belief that advaita is irrational, by bypassing the very basic premise of Veda that the truth is one and Sat-Chit-Ananda, it is also possible to attribute vile to Manu Smriti by the motivated minds. It is easy and there is no medicine for that.

Manu Smriti puts in few clauses: such as suitabilty based on absolute lack of hatred, source of varNa in one Purusha, the mutabilty of varNa, the possibilty of a Brahmin becoming a Sudra etc. If one bypasses these, one bypasses the spiritual basis and relies only on the fleshy body, which is not the varNa signifier.

As Vivendi has pointed out, Shri Nara is intentionally equating varNa (a spiritual aspect/trait) with birth as absolute equalty. He is not considering the mutabilty. He is not considering the re-birth. He is not considering that the negative descriptions of Sudra do not relate to a Sudra by birth but to a being, who is Sudra by nature -- and that can be anyone. Shri Nara does not consider the verses that speak about the easy fall of so-called higher varNas to Sudra dom. The Sudra verses are applicable to these fallen angels also. MS has not taught untouchabilty and neither it has taught that varNa is immutable. Shri Nara, as per me, is also not amenable to see the ills in Rajasic and Tamasic Guna of men, rather than in scripture.

varNa is linked to birth because duties and rituals have to be performed and no one can know the true varNa. But no one has said that varNa is a fleshy concept. It is primarily a guna-karma effect and both of these are not immutable. Birth gives a start but obligations remain. Failing with those obligations, it is said, that a Brahmana becomes a Sudra in three days.

Vedic verse should not be read by those, who have not the knowledge of Pragnya nature of this world. This is specified in Svet. U. and Mundka U.. This thread exemplifies that.

Finally, MS teaches that the moola of Dharma is the Vedas. So, even if we keep the MS at sidelines, the concept of Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Sudra as the very body of divine Purusha cannot be given up by those who consider themselves hindus.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
02 April 2010, 04:41 PM
All this ambiguity is due to the dual usage of the term “brahmana” and as I said earlier, it is quite self-serving.

Cheers!

You miss the whole point. The self serving do not remain a brahmana.

Om

NayaSurya
02 April 2010, 04:42 PM
It's not just caste in India, its the widespread unfair distribution or wealth on the planet. Its sexism. male chauvinism, racism, ethnocentricity, old money, greed. Here are a few examples outside of India:

Did the Queen or England or other royalty earn in any way that undue respect?

Do First Nation aboriginals in Canada, USA, Australia, and others deserve the treatment they get? They are the outcastes of developed nations. Indians of India who think the west is such a wonderful place should have a look at a Northern Canadian First Nations reservation where alcoholism, unemployment is rampant and the government is in denial.

Do minority groups in so called democracies, (Sri Lanka, Indian workers in the middle east, Muslims in France, Mexican workers in California) really deserve their status?

Tibet?

The huge favelas (slums) of Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro?

The Catholic Church's ongoing absurdity concerning pedophile priests and years of abuse and destruction of other cultures.

People who criticize the caste system in India need to wake up and have a look at the rest of the world as well. Otherwise its just plain hypocrisy.

Aum Namasivaya

This post, is very dear to my heart. I wish more people thought this way.


More times than I can say in the past yeat that I have had someone refuse to even greet me, and immediately attempt conversation with my sweet beautiful husband who has a problem with social aspects...but yet they won't even look me in the eyes because I'm female...This female body is not what's inside. It deceives....oh sure it looks pretty...but it lies to the person looking at only that.


I cut the grass...I played football as a teen...was raised to believe in each souls equality. Yet always, I find my "place" is that following behind my husband. He walks beside me...never knew why this was so wrong.

atanu
02 April 2010, 04:50 PM
This post, is very dear to my heart. I wish more people thought this way.

More times than I can say in the past yeat that I have had someone refuse to even greet me, and immediately attempt conversation with my sweet beautiful husband who has a problem with social aspects...but yet they won't even look me in the eyes because I'm female...This female body is not what's inside. It deceives....oh sure it looks pretty...but it lies to the person looking at only that.


I cut the grass...I played football as a teen...was raised to believe in each souls equality. Yet always, I find my "place" is that following behind my husband. He walks beside me...never knew why this was so wrong.

Narasurya

You raise good points. Yet do you not consider yourself a female? The reality of soul's equality is for you (and everyone) to experience and attain. But, as of now, that you are a female is true.

Om Namah Shivaya

NayaSurya
02 April 2010, 07:10 PM
I am female, have birthed 9 children. 8 live, and I am their mother...1 was stillborn. I am a mother to many, any....if you need me I will love you whomever you are. I am at your service.

Also, I love the beautiful things about being a female. I love my husband completely. I serve him as a wife's duty is as if serving God... a mother serves God by caring well for her children. I have not defied my birth gender in any way whatsoever. To do so would be an affront to the divine.

But, in the USA ...this culture, a female child can be born very strong...and it is acceptable. I would run away to the woods barefoot and stay all day and night with burs in my pigtails...I would come home with cuts and ticks but parents never discouraged...only nurtured. I was allowed to remain true. I can push a car out of a ditch and even repair it depending on issue. My husband is also on this forum he would come here and read and verify this.

For me, inside I feel very neutral about it. I don't feel female or male. I am here to serve others. The gender, this American culture....it's the ultimate illusion. It's my costume for this party. I will wear it, but it would be nice to have someone look beyond this vessel.

smaranam
02 April 2010, 08:05 PM
Namaste

GaneshPrasadji had pointed out somewhere the symptoms of Kali Yuga .

Here are some verses from Canto 12 Chapter 2 of Shrimad BhAgvat on Kali Yuga

Please read, but do not get disheartened, as alongside Kali is this Golden Age where Spirituality , Holy Name , Grace and Mercy of the Divine is generously available. Plus we are not this body.



SB 12.2.1: Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: Then, O King, religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, mercy, duration of life, physical strength and memory will all diminish day by day because of the powerful influence of the age of Kali.
SB 12.2.2: In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power.
SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. ....
......

SB 12.2.11: The maximum duration of life for human beings in Kali-yuga will become fifty years.
SB 12.2.12-16: By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varṇāśrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. .....
SB 12.2.17: Lord Viṣṇu — the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master of all moving and nonmoving living beings, and the Supreme Soul of all — takes birth to protect the principles of religion and to relieve His saintly devotees from the reactions of material work.
SB 12.2.18: Lord Kalki will appear in the home of the most eminent brāhmaṇa of Śambhala village, the great soul Viṣṇuyaśā.

....

SB 12.2.34: After the one thousand celestial years of Kali-yuga, the Satya-yuga will manifest again. At that time the minds of all men will become self-effulgent.
SB 12.2.35: Thus I have described the royal dynasty of Manu, as it is known on this earth. One can similarly study the history of the vaiśyas, śūdras and brāhmaṇas living in the various ages.
SB 12.2.36: These personalities, who were great souls, are now known only by their names. They exist only in accounts from the past, and only their fame remains on the earth.
SB 12.2.37: Devāpi, the brother of Mahārāja Śāntanu, and Maru, the descendant of Ikṣvāku, both possess great mystic strength and are living even now in the village of Kalāpa.
SB 12.2.38: At the end of the age of Kali, these two kings, having received instruction directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, will return to human society and reestablish the eternal religion of man, characterized by the divisions of varṇa and āśrama, just as it was before.
SB 12.2.39: The cycle of four ages — Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara and Kali — continues perpetually among living beings on this earth, repeating the same general sequence of events.

..............
......

Jai Shri KRSNa

smaranam
02 April 2010, 08:22 PM
Namaste

Even if someone disproves the Vedas or says Krshna was just a person from Dwapar Yuga who ate butter and ruled Dwaraka, He will always remain the Lord of my heart, my Guru and BhagavAn.

Actually atheists are not so bad, they are following at least a part of Krshna's message and glorifying Him indirectly by their goodness, provided they are good people.

Nara
02 April 2010, 09:39 PM
Dear sister NayaSurya, Greetings!

I did not respond to you earlier not because I did not want to, but because I was trying to understand what you were saying. What you say is different; it is not the usual assertions and dogma that passes for debate here.

First of all, we all are mongrels, the highest of Brahmins to the lowest of Dalits. HareKrishna rightly pointed out, citing genetic studies, the level of DNA admixture among Dalits is not any different from that of the thoroughbred of Brahmins. Even the study that found a larger proportion of similarity between fathers of upper-caste and Muslims(!) on the one hand, and the Eurasian population on the other, found no significant difference on the mother’s side (Y-chromosome) for all Indians. If you go back even further, say about 60,000 years, we all came from Africa. All this shows us the Varna system is a man made concept with the only objective of enforcing order. Talking about interpolations, Srimat BG itself is considered an interpolation and Srimat Bhagavatham no earlier than about 1200 years from the present.

Religion promises many a Brooklyn Bridge after we are dead and no more and in exchange we are to give a lot in this present life, the only life we can be sure of. The powerful get to decide who is a Brahmana and who is a Shudra or a Dalit. The definitions change according to circumstance. In theory, Brahamana is one who is above all mundane things, committed to truth,free of desire and passion, and so on. If this is actually practiced, there would be zero Brahmins, ever.

My observations are not based just on book reading, I have seen how these exalted theories are actually practiced. I am myself a Brahmin by birth and have been closely associated with the religious Matam that my family belongs to. I have seen the practices first hand. If all of what I saw is just avidya, it is a very convenient sort of avidya, much like the avidya of Marie Antoinette who wanted the hungry peasants to eat cake. It is all avidya you see, just suffer through the indignation, and if you follow all the rules we have put together for you, may be, just may be, in the next life you will be alright.

All this is well and good, if it is done with informed consent. That is the key, informed consent. How can you get informed consent from a group of people for whom the core texts are forbidden, not even to be heard, or else molten lead will be poured into the ears, so says smrithi and acharyas?

What freedom is, is best known only to those from whom it is taken. Gone are the days when the Shudra and Dalit had to take all of this meekly. Dalits have been freed by the Constitution of India, written under the guidance of Dr. Ambedkar. You must read his essay on Annihilation of Caste, it reminds me of Dr. MLK’s Vietnam speech, very powerful and poignant. Ambedkar did not sow any seeds of division, the Varna system did that. Ambedkar awakened the inner dignity of all. This upsets the existing order, so he gets accused of sowing division. Yes, he is guilty of sowing division between a master and a slave. He is guilty of sowing division between the oppressor and the oppressed. He is guilty of sowing seeds of division between hypocrisy and decency.

The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat. But they are coming, armed with moral authority and intellectual rigor. They are young bards like Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan, or “just” loving mothers like you my friend.

peace and love to all who can climb down from high horses, cheers!

devotee
02 April 2010, 10:08 PM
Dear Nara,


so it is a matter of interpretation, not at all clear cut as you said earlier.

Yes, when there are vested interests involved to brew the pre-decided meaning then even the clear cut meaning of verses also must be obfuscated !


Even here, I feel uncomfortable accepting what you are saying.

Just think cooly and it will be clear why you are feeling uncomfortable in accepting the Truth. This is simply because it blunts your uncalled for attack on Hindu Shastras and that hurts your ego.


Vajrashuchika does not say anyone with the qualities described is a brahmana regardless of birth. All we can say from this Upanishad is birth is not a sufficient condition for brahmanahood.

We have seen how you have been taking out your meaning from the scriptures that serves your logic and here you go again. It doesn't at all surprise me.


The Upanishad starts out with denying Brahmanahood for jiva or body. Then it rejects Brahmanahood as a result of jati, knowledge, karma, or dharma. Then it defines certain set of qualities some religious and others secular, and finally declares that only he with these qualities is a Brahmana.

So, is it not clear that a Brahmana/Brahmin is not a Brahmana/Brahmin only on the strength of his birth when it is not to be decided on the basis of body and jati ? And when one varna is not be decided on the basis of birth ... doesn't it apply to all varnas by following the same logic ???


Now, is it saying a Shudra by birth exhibiting these qualities is also a Brahamna?

Pity, the seer thought that giving example of one varna would be enough ! He was really mistaken ... he should have kept people like you in his mind .... !


If you say yes, then I have to say there are two Brahamanas, one described in the Upanishad and one that is part of the Varana system, and the one from the Varna system is definitely birth based.

We are here talking of the Veda Pramana .... the highest Sabda Pramana. Which part of Vedas say that Varna is decided by birth ?


All this ambiguity is due to the dual usage of the term “brahmana” and as I said earlier, it is quite self-serving.

That is what you think because it serves your purpose. So, actually, your interpretations are really self-serving !!

OM

atanu
02 April 2010, 10:43 PM
Dear sister NayaSurya, Greetings!

Talking about interpolations, Srimat BG itself is considered an interpolation and Srimat Bhagavatham no earlier than about 1200 years from the present.

I felt that surely this had to come. But I do not yet know whether it is a vaisnava view or a Buddhistic one.


Religion promises many a Brooklyn Bridge after we are dead and no more and in exchange we are to give a lot in this present life, ---

Kindly be slow to assert. Hindu scriptures teach "here and now". But it is you who are analysing only the memory of past and superimposing that on the present. Why do not you also contemplate for a moment whether you are not solely driven by your memory, which you have only created but over which you have no control whatsoever.

The colour of your memory and mine do not match. Scriptures teach that only when the memory is transparent (without loaded values) then only scriptures should be studied. Kindly see the contradiction with what you said about some vaisnava acharyas being totally free of the idea of caste. On the other hand, is it not you who is loading your own world view with memory?

The various tattvas are taught not to remember them but to use them to go back to the origin of the tattvas -- to That. Just as stairs are there to climb up. You are like a person who cries "Because of these damn stairs, I cannot see the 2nd floor properly".

It is not a cliche to say that the world does not come and announce that it is full of evil.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
02 April 2010, 11:16 PM
Dalits have been freed by the Constitution of India, written under the guidance of Dr. Ambedkar. ----

The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat. But they are coming, armed with moral authority and intellectual rigor. They are young bards like Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan, or “just” loving mothers like you my friend.

peace and love to all who can climb down from high horses, cheers!

namaste Shri Nara

I hope you will not mind when I give my opinion that Shri Ambedkar did not consider the import of Purusha Suktam. He surmised political machination in a veda verse and forgot his own machination and motivation.

I support you fully that the oppressed should come up. But I remind you that the leader who assumes the throne will be no better, if such a one does not understand that no one is free from "Ego".

The world has seen many leaders, who appeared to be uplifting the oppresed but in the end ended up as monsters.

Om namah Shivaya

devotee
02 April 2010, 11:37 PM
The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat. But they are coming, armed with moral authority and intellectual rigor. They are young bards like Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan, or “just” loving mothers like you my friend.

Yeah, and we can add the names of those "dalit" leaders also who became multi millionaire (billionaire ?) by such lip service and are spending thousands of crores of Rupees from public exchequer to install their statues here, there & everywhere & even making temples having intstalled themselves as deity to be worshipped when the poor man is dying of hunger !

Oppression against so called dalit is bad ... ok. Oppression against a Brahmin because he was born as one is again OK ?

OM

isavasya
03 April 2010, 12:27 AM
The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat. But they are coming, armed with moral authority and intellectual rigor. They are young bards like Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan, or “just” loving mothers like you my friend.

peace and love to all who can climb down from high horses, cheers!





Dear Nara,

You talk of Morality and cheapness, but mark my words, nothing could be cheaper than your above statement that dalits are despised by all the upper castes, I dont despise for sure, my Friends and relative dont, my so called upper caste friends (rajput etc) whose village land had been looted by MCC (dalit sena) too dont hate dalits. To judge such a large part of humanity without any proof except your whimsical fancy is nothing but sadistic and fanatic dislike towards hindus and hinduism.





Nara, do you even live in india or just happen to read some Anti-hindu magazines etc to get yourself charged up ?? If you dont know India, then stop making assertions lest you are insane. As far as wealth goes , it is Backward or middle castes of india who are better of than Upper castes in most regions. I am not a fan of jati pratha sir, but let me tell you all castes of india are proud of their caste. In my college there are lots of gujjars, who have applied for ST category, right now they fall in Backward category, and every gujjar I met, cant just stop showing their delight on being born in great gujjar caste and having superiority complex. The same goes for all other castes of india, forward or backward, they are all proud of their lineage. The same for muslims like some are pathans, some syed (descendant of mohhamed), some middle class like mallik and some lower like julaha,ruikatwa. Lots of honour killings happen in case you dont know. This is general phenomenon of south Asia and yes in past or even today their is exploitation, but that originates from more of a CLASS Difference than caste. In another biased statement you wrote, poor forward castes take side of their rich caste mates, this is completely false too, on the contrary it this approach of backward communities and muslims which leads them to think Mulayam or MAYA type politicians as their gods. Nara, I thought for some time you were just a normal atheist, it seems you are another hindu basher. I remember one dr.Bala who was pretty much like you.



You mentioned Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan but you forgot raja ram mohan roy, dayanand saraswati,Swami sahajanand saraswati, RSS,etc etc and other whom you say as haters. You also forgot ram bilas and maya type wrong politicians. My dear sir,do I need to say anything else or will you remain biased, many among people for whom you advocate no caste, are extremely proud of their caste and want to carry that at disadvantage of others.I will only say, if you have to end anything end the corruption of power, India needs to give away hate and divide politics and falling prey to dominance of High CLASS people. Class differnce brings degradation in society and not Varna system.

saidevo
03 April 2010, 12:38 AM
namaste everyone.

Nara is making out as if only the ManuSmRti, GautamaSmRti and other such Dharma ShAstra text speak about the hierarchical set up of the four varNas and that only brahmins were adamant about its preservation. While he conveniently quotes the Azhvars as his role models for a casteless soceity, he says nothing about the evidences in the Tamil texts about the hierarchical set up of the varNa system that was obtaining in Tamilnadu from the ancient days of the Sangham era.

Although there was a hierarchical setup, and even an established norm of varNa by birth, there was no situation of harassment of the lower varNa by the higher ones. But then the people with occupations that are today classified as those of the dalits were referred to with derogatory if not contemptuous terms in those times as some verses in the Sangham literature indicate. The following details are from a book authored by the popular senior journalist in Tamilnadu, shrI K.C.LakShminArAyaNan.

• The oldest text in Tamil, tolkAppiyam, speaks of the hierarchical arrangement of duties for the varNas:

aRuvakaippaTTa pArppanap pakkamum
aivakai marabin arasar pakkamum
iru mUnRu marabin EnOr pakkamum
--tolKappiyam, poruladhikAram, puRattiNaiyiyal, vAkaittiNai-1021

This verse says that brAhmaNas had six kinds of duties, kShatriyas had five kinds and the other two varNas had six kinds.

‣ The six duties of brAhmaNas are: Chanting the Vedas, getting them chanted, performing yajnas, getting them performed, charity and accepting alms.

‣ The five duties of kShatriyas are: Chanting the Vedas, performing the yajnas, charity, maintaining armies and protecting the citizens.

‣ The six duties for a vaiShya and shUdras (called vELALar--farmers) are: Chanting, yajnas, charity, agriculture, trade, mainting the catttle.

In addition to this general injuction, tolKappiyam in its marabiyal section of poruLadhikAram gives the hierarchical details of the varNas:

• BrAhmaNas have these symbolic belongings for them: pUNUl--sacred thread, tIrtha kamaNDalam--waterpot, mukkol--tridaNDam--three-in-one staff, darbhAsanam--seat of darbha grass.

• Kings (kShatriyas) have the four kinds of army, flag, umbrella, drum, garland, crown, throne, fort and a royal staff.

• KShatriyas also have the symbols of brAhmaNas but not the other way. That is, a brAhmaNa cannot become a king.

• The place and tool names might be added to the individual name for the people of the four varNas to distinguish them.

• Kings and traders can have their own armies, but not the people of other varNas.

• The best occupation for the vELALas--shUdras, is agriculture. They receive their honours from the king.

*****

• A much reverred text, tirumandiram by TirumUlar, in its aNDalingam verse no.1721 of the seventh tantra, says this:

BrAhmaNas do archanA--worship to the lingam made of sphaTikAm--crystal;
Kings do archanA to the lingam made of gold;
Vaishyas do archanA to the lingam made of emerald;
shudras do archanA to the lingam made of stone.

Dr.B.NaTarAjan has explained about this verse that the lingam is thus prepared of different materials for the public worship of the people of the four varNas.

• TirumUlar has also used the term 'shUdra' in his phrase 'thuRaiyuDaich chUtthirar'--shUdras with a division. M.SAmbashiva PiLLai has explained that this phrase is due to TirumUlar classifying the shUdras as sat--spiritually inclined, and asat--worldly inclined, shUdras.

*****

• In the Sangham text puRanAnURu, refers to the dalit whose occupation is cremating bodies with the term 'izhi piRappinOn'--of base/mean birth, in its verse no.353, where a king is advised of the impermanence of life:

"O King! There is going to be a time when (as a dead body) in a cremation ground where the spurges are grown in large numbers, on a large, barren ground, with a saltless ball of cooked rice given to you by one (pulaiyan) who is an 'izhi piRappinOn', showing his back to you... before that time sets in, think about renouncing life and doing tapas--penance."

• In the puRanAnURu verses 82 and 289 too the pulaiyan is referred to by the term 'izhichinan'.

• In the verse 360 the very term 'pulaiyan' occurs.

The dalits should realize the truth against the propaganda of some Tamil pandits that it was all hunky-dory during the Sangham times and that the ill treatment of the lower castes was initiated by the brahmins.

saidevo
03 April 2010, 02:06 AM
namatse Nara.

You said in post 30:
The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat. But they are coming, armed with moral authority and intellectual rigor. They are young bards like Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan, or "just" loving mothers like you my friend.
*****

Yes, it seems that there is some light at the end of the tunnel for the Dalits whom the vested interests exploit and keep in the dark tunnel by brainwashing them that their suffering is solely due to the upper castes. If the Dalits realize in action what they have discovered in their following statement, specially with regard to their Leaders and the Government, that could mean the end of their sufferings and misunderstandings:

A Small Dalit Agenda
http://www.dalitindia.com/caste/small.htm

"...The end victims are We SC&ST Dalits at the bottom of the pile in the society. Hence our sufferings and misery are increasing by the minute. This is intolerable. And none of the Govts, or the Political Parties and our Leaders, including those who speak a lot big about us, is really bothered about us or our welfare. In fact many of our Leaders are exploiting our Name, our Problems, Poverty, Pains, Sufferings and Misery, for their own personal undue and unreasonable benefits and advantages. Any of the small good things happening to us, are only incidental, and are as a reaction to the criminal Atrocities and intolerable Injustices still being committed against us, by the traditionally intolerant feudal elements and other caste hindus..."

smaranam
03 April 2010, 07:57 AM
Namaste Prof. Nara

Just so you know, i am on no-one's side here, neither yours not theirs. All i am saying is that this is Kali Yuga, and the way its progressing, golden good on one side and black bad on the other , is its inherent nature.

The Moghul rule and atrocities, Christian affectionate dogma - not Christ Himself, Yamuna River Cleanup Petition , were all referenced years ago in the Bhagavatam - Canto 12, Chap 2.





First of all, we all are mongrels, the highest of Brahmins to the lowest of Dalits.
Sure



HareKrishna rightly pointed out, citing genetic studies, the level of DNA admixture among Dalits is not any different from that of the thoroughbred of Brahmins. Even the study that found a larger proportion of similarity between fathers of upper-caste and Muslims(!) on the one hand, and the Eurasian population on the other, found no significant difference on the mother’s side (Y-chromosome) for all Indians.

Why is this so surprising ? This is Kali Yuga after all.



If you go back even further, say about 60,000 years, we all came from Africa. All this shows us the Varna system is a man made concept with the only objective of enforcing order.

I don't know enough to say anything about evolution. Some came from Africa some didn't.
Whatever the VarNa system is, it WAS simply an administrative heirarchy, which deteriorates in Kali Yuga , so fine ! HarinAm Sankirtan parties , all saints and Dr. Ambedkar came to the rescue. Maharashtra had so many saints from the lower castes. Devotees of Panduranga Panduranga Panduranga :)


Talking about interpolations, Srimat BG itself is considered an interpolation and Srimat Bhagavatham no earlier than about 1200 years from the present.

Make NO difference to me. If you say lets do away with the whole thing i have nothing to lose. KRSNa remains my Lord. *He* is the ONE who pulled me out of the material dessert. So nothing matters. Plus BG speaks truth. Truth is Golden. Yet it had to be spoken partly in context of the time and social structure then.


The powerful get to decide who is a Brahmana and who is a Shudra or a Dalit. The definitions change according to circumstance.

Let us add ... "in Kali Yuga". Had it not been for the Yuga, there would be no Dalits to begin with. There was no British school system where material sciences were taught. Today, are the dalits forbidden from going to school and earning a living ?

This reform itself is a result of the system going disarray in Kali. The system is not a blot, the expected phenomenal blots can be attributed to Kali
- but of course if one believes in the Yugas, otherwise its recursively complicated.

Plus, is this not about ego , that a groups needs to be acknowledged as important ? If their basic human needs are being transgressed, this is not good i agree. So reform, bhakti and upliftment of downtrodden is a good thing ! The twisted politics of today that takes advantage of the situation, misdiagnoses and blames someone ena meena myna mo , is a bad thing.


In theory, Brahamana is one who is above all mundane things, committed to truth,free of desire and passion, and so on. If this is actually practiced, there would be zero Brahmins, ever.

Let us replace zero with "a handful" and add "in Kali Yuga". Shrila PRabhupAd said today, almost everyone is a Shudra , and we all have access to develop Brahmanical qualities. No one is barred. Not from the Lord's Holy Names, satsang, etc. Perhaps yajna karya - NO. But then is THIS what Dalits are fighting for ? That THEY want to perform physical fire Yajnas ?!

"Of Sacrifices (Yajnas) I am Japa-Yaj~na" - BG Chap 10 Vibhuti Yoga.
So Sankirtan Yaj~na and Japa Yaj~na is not restrictive. Its for all.



How can you get informed consent from a group of people for whom the core texts are forbidden, not even to be heard,

Core Text means the Actual Vedas right ? Not Ramayana or Mahabharat ?

How can you get informed consent from a group of laymen for whom secret scientific research or federal info is forbidden ? This could be the thinking - perhaps i don't know. But its available to dalits now !
I am always thankful to the Lord, all beings involved , and the internet , becs ita available to me!


or else molten lead will be poured into the ears, so says smrithi and acharyas?
THAT is too harsh a wording i agree - perhaps a hyperbole.


What freedom is, is best known only to those from whom it is taken.
Believe me, I totally heartfully agree. This is not just dalits, many women,
in social and marital prisons have had to face this,
Many poor people in general faced this at hands of corruption,

Any victims of any situation where TAmas prevails had to face oppression

But that was not the intention of ShAstras that were expected to not work smoothly in Kali Yug



Gone are the days when the Shudra and Dalit had to take all of this meekly.

There we go ! Yada Yada hi dharmasya. That is my point.


The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat.

This is all EGO on BOTH sides of the fence


peace and love to all who can climb down from high horses, cheers!

High Horse and Brahmin definition do not go together. OXYMORON, sorry :)


Your friend, and everyone's friend

Jai Shri KRSNa

Nara
03 April 2010, 01:20 PM
Dear friend Smaranam, you come to love for humanity through bhakti, and we atheists come to love for humanity just for its own sake. I understand your POV and respect it, even if I don’t agree with the religious parts of it. Please permit me couple of comments.

[1] Advanced scientific knowledge is not forbidden based on birth, anyone can try and succeed. Further, science does not compel that people must use science, many Amish Christians in the U.S. live without many basic comforts science offers. So, the comparison you are trying to make is not valid.

[2] You say, “The system is not a blot, the expected phenomenal blots can be attributed to Kali.” I think this is a distinction without a difference. What is point of Varna system anyway?
If it is efficient division of labor according to one’s temperament and capacity, is that not what we have in the secular world without any Varna division?
If it is for spiritual development, why divide based on work performed?
If it is based only on merit, not on birth, how is this merit ascertained?
If the merit is self-determined how do you ensure consistency?
If others will determine, how would that be implemented? What is the mechanism by which one's merit, temperament, and capacity will be ascertained?
With no guidance for any of this, is it any wonder that birth is the only way this system can be implemented?
Given the above, why should one not conclude that a non-birth based Varna system simply cannot work?


Brother Saidevo, from your criticism of Tamil Pundits it seems your argument now is, it is not just the Hindus, the Tamils also practiced caste system. Then my point is already made. However, you are mixing up religious tradition and linguistic tradition. To the extent Tamils were Hindus of course they practiced Varna system. Those who deny it are no better than the Brahmins who praise the Varna system. But there is an important difference, the preeminent Tamil law book is Thirukkural, and it is truly a moral and elevating text. The less we say about the preeminent law book of Hindus, the better.



Isavasya, yes, many caste groups take pride in their caste identity. The word “Parayan” was used in the most contemptible way, to keep them humiliated, for a long time. But, now, they want to show to the world they are not inferior to anybody, and they are proud of their heritage just as much as anyone else. For this reason, they flaunt their caste identity. It is a sort of political act. But such caste based pride has an ugly violent side. I agree with you that class struggle is a serious issue, but to say there is only class difference and no caste based domination is incorrect.



Devotee, I am no more a fan of thieving politicians than anyone here, whether it is a Brahmin like Narsimha Rao, or Dalit like Mayawati. From what I have read, the Dalits feel it is about time a Dalit does some of what the upper castes have been doing all along. When Mayawati spends crores on her birthday, her fellow Dalits feel a vicarious sort of satisfaction, as though they themselves are hitting back at the establishment. I understand this feeling, but don’t approve of it. As Dalits become increasingly integrated and the intensity of caste identity lessens, these excesses will not be viewed through the prism of caste.



Atanu, I don’t agree that Dr. Ambedkar must understand the purport of Purusha Suktam as you see it. He was a political and social leader committed to the welfare of all oppressed people. Further, there are so many "true" purport of the Vedas, which one is he supposed to understand?

The real and day-to-day oppression concerned him. I think Dalits are savvy enough to select their own leaders. Rightly or wrongly, Dalits may even view the concerns you express about their leadership as mere crocodile tears. The Hindu scripture, or scripture of any other religion for that matter, talk of how one must behave here and now, with a promise of reward or punishment after one is dead. The evidence for life after death is their scripture. Such a circular logic has been used for millennia, with devastating effect upon the gullible. Alas, it still continues.


peace ....

smaranam
03 April 2010, 07:19 PM
Some people went upto BhagavAn, offered their obeissances, gifts, and treasured the sight of Him all they could......

"What brings you here , My beloveds ?"

They related their complaint that birth is the only way to tell VarNa, and it is causing havoc.
He smiled.

Shri BhagavAn UvAcha : "That is your problem, not Mine. I have only given you 4 natural personality-aptitude types, and I have given My LOVE . In Sat Yuga, birth tells varNa easily. In Kali Yuga it appearantly doesn't ?
So, you guys figure it out. Not My problem. REMEMBER MY LOVE IS ALWAYS WITH YOU.

If you let ego in, the system will break. You are part of My Love called Universe(MAyA). If you don't think in oneness, but as seperate entities with your own ahaMkAr-whim, naturally there will be problems.
However, I shall not coerce you into anything.

You made up the caste system, perhaps because Sat changed to Treta to Dwapar to Kali, history told you it usually worked by birth, but you people just got so used to family-inherited occupation that it got rigid.

Today your caste system only serves as a cultural heritage and for religious duties pertaining to archana and yaj~na , not professional.
For all out of home professional purposes, it is defunct.

Now stop all that political nonsense and give up all silly EGO . If A put down B by birth 100 yrs ago, B takes revenge by showing off wealth earned 100 yrs later and its never-ending. Inter-group feud. Name the group.

Past was past. I see you are getting better and smarter as a society.
Whether you use vocational workshops for high schoolers, parental heritage,culture, knowledge developed over generations in family business, science or art, just closer observation of your kids and good parenting -
whatever, that's your area. I am NOT going to babysit.

Just as the perceived-lower serves the perceived-higher, the perceived-higher serves the perceived-lower equally
by keeping them employed (kshatriya-to-shudra, vaishya-to-shudra, kshatriya-to-vaishya) ,
setting good examples in all fields of life - health, education, diet, hygene, good citizenship.... (brahmin-to-all, kshatriya-to-all, ) ,
praying for society (brahmin-all), creating punya, doing good for society (yogis, brahmins - all ) ,
protecting and leading society (kshatriya - all) etc.

So, ego, abhimAn, superior feeling, insulting another, looking down upon others, namecalling,
ego - abhimAn, Feeling insulted, upmAn, "Why me ?" - false ego again, "how dare they" , "why should I do this ? "

are the root cause of imbalance, disruption and unrest in any societial structure be it caste, class, culture, nationality .... it is neverending as long as you are devoid of LOVE.

Here's your chance, My beloveds, my LOVE is in abundance for you to wear, keep, show, work on, serve with.....
TATHAASTU !!"

He walked away stuffing the flute into His waist-band .... "I have lost two of my cows.... Subala, have you seen them ? TAU, have you ?...."

They kept gazing at Him in wonder......

-------------------------

Back on earth ....
"Without the spiritual equality and sense of service inherent in sanatana&#173;dharma, varnashrama-dharma tends to degrade into the rigid and exploitative caste system." - Varnashram Dharma (http://hinduism.iskcon.com/concepts/108a.htm)

Nara
03 April 2010, 08:59 PM
.... Do you see what i see ? Could your love for humanity for its own sake be really avyabhichAri bhakti from all those years of Shri VaishNavism?

Dear smaranam, it is my considered opinion, and I don't say this lightly, we are here by ourselves, we all are brothers and sisters, there is no father or mother, figuratively of course -- for those who can't relate to metaphors.

In this context, let me share with you a short dialog composed by a great Acharya of Sri Vaishnava tradition after Bhgavat Ramanuja, once removed, namely, Parashara Bhattar. It is a tradition in Sri vaishnava temples to sing the praise of the Lord right after an abhishekam when the Lord is simply in his bathing vasthram and tulasi garland, nothing more. Parashara Bhattar imagined a conversation between a wayward Jeeva and Ishwara. It goes something like this:


Ranganatha: त्वम मे -- You are mine
Jeevan: अहम मे -- I am myself
Ranganatha: कुतस्तथ् -- How do you say that?
Jeeavn: तदापि कुतः -- How can you claim I am yours?
Ranganatha: इदम् वेदमूल प्रमाणात् -- My claim is based on the authority of the Vedas
Jeevan: येतच्छ अनादि अनुभव विभवात् -- My claim is based on my eternal ownership
Ranganatha: तर्हि साक्रोश येव -- Your claim is already rejected
Jeevan : क्रोशः कस्य -- rejected how?
Ranganatha: गीतादीशु मम विधितः -- I did it in Bhagavat Gita
Jeevan: कोत्र साक्शीः -- Who is your witness?
Ranganatha: सुधीः स्यात् -- All the wise
Jeevan: हन्त त्वात् पारपक्षपातिसः -- of course, these wise man are biased in your your favor.

At this point in the nataka, Lord Ranganatha is supposed to be stunned without a response.

Of course, Parasara Bhattar goes on to caution the jeevas of their impudence. But, to me this a telling a dialog. Only abandonment of common sense, the common sense people of faith equate to ego, can make one take this security blanket, namely Ishvara, seriously.

All said and done, to me it really does not matter what route you take, but if you arrive at love for all, I welcome you as a brother and comrade.

peace and love my friend ....

isavasya
03 April 2010, 09:47 PM
Isavasya, yes, many caste groups take pride in their caste identity. The word “Parayan” was used in the most contemptible way, to keep them humiliated, for a long time. But, now, they want to show to the world they are not inferior to anybody, and they are proud of their heritage just as much as anyone else. For this reason, they flaunt their caste identity. It is a sort of political act. But such caste based pride has an ugly violent side. I agree with you that class struggle is a serious issue, but to say there is only class difference and no caste based domination is incorrect.



Nara,
How do you know taking pride in caste identity is new thing for dalits or backwards. I will give you some proof and you answer me few questions please.


1. Unless you have not traveled whole india as I have, all you can talk is by reading anti-hindu stuffs. All castes of India are proud of their lineage, and they have distinct culture, which you will see when you see the way they celebrate their marriages or festivals. This culture is not born after 1947 or after your Ambedkar but has been a result of evolution of 1000 years. Most of Hindu castes including dalits trace their origin from some devi-devta, which is again not a story floated after your ambedkar. Their culture and heritage filled them with pride, dalits included. Most of Hindu books have been penned by dalits or shudras, does that conveys that there was no sanction on them. The ENGLISH people and their policies was what brought big differences in social status.


2. Nara,Please explain how there are dalit sikhs, when sikhism was found on the principles opposing castes etc ? How there is casteism in Islam. Due you even know what is general difference between elite muslims like sheikhs,syed,pathans to castes like Julaha etc. Have you heard about dominant afridi or pathan tribes in balouchistan,afghnanistan ? You dont know !!! Perhaps because you have only got propaganda aginst hinduism.







When Mayawati spends crores on her birthday, her fellow Dalits feel a vicarious sort of satisfaction, as though they themselves are hitting back at the establishment. I understand this feeling, but don’t approve of it. As Dalits become increasingly integrated and the intensity of caste identity lessens, these excesses will not be viewed through the prism of caste.





Did you read the newspaper yesterday ? Did you read the two contrasting news? Mayawati government has allotted a special force to protect statues of dalit Icons (will cost 100's of crores), at the same time mayawati government refused to spend a single rs on The new law of "RIGHT TO EDUCATION for all". and Nara, I pity your brain and narrow mind, you defend the support extended to such politicians because some people feel satisfaction on dalit politicians tomfoolery of her dalit junta. Are you brainless to understand the difference of making statues and giving education to all ????



The real and day-to-day oppression concerned him. I think Dalits are savvy enough to select their own leaders. Rightly or wrongly, Dalits may even view the concerns you express about their leadership as mere crocodile tears. The Hindu scripture, or scripture of any other religion for that matter, talk of how one must behave here and now, with a promise of reward or punishment after one is dead. The evidence for life after death is their scripture. Such a circular logic has been used for millennia, with devastating effect upon the gullible





Nara, thankfully not, No educated dalit agrees with you, only those dailts who are some what literate like you but not educated happen to have a view like yours. At Night I do got to a park, and yes there is a group of dalits I meet, they dont take my concern as crocodile tears, but as their own concerns. They are hurt when maya spends crores on her garland and not does enough for common good of state. And before you justify their leadership of hit-back, do you mean to say this process should continue,if reservation was not enough do you also approve of Maoists. You dont know what a maoist is, you dont know how it strangulates people, economy,society. All these are hit-back for you. People like you who leave their motherland and hit back at India from west, try to spread hatred and divide our society just for trying to prove yourself humanitarian and satisfy your ego are worst of the lot we have to fight.A country which is fighting hard against terrorism, separatism is blessed to have people like nara, ready to divide its people and break it forever, just to satisfy their ego.

....

saidevo
03 April 2010, 10:29 PM
namaste Nara.

You said in your post no.39:
But there is an important difference, the preeminent Tamil law book is Thirukkural, and it is truly a moral and elevating text. The less we say about the preeminent law book of Hindus, the better.
*****

Your intolerance and prejudice are showing, Nara. Please note that you are already found to make sweeping statements such as "The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste" to which Isavasya has taken strong exception in his post no.35.

Here is the proof against your quoted assertion regarding TirukkuraL and Manu Smriti:

There are some exciting similarities between KuraL and Manu Smriti and between Bhartrihari and Valluvar as well (Tables 11 and 12).

Table 11. Ten select verses of similar import in Manu Smriti and Thirukkural
http://nvkashraf.co.cc/valluvar/jaina2b.htm

01. Manu 5.52
01.....There is no greater sinner than that one who seeks to increase his own flesh by the flesh of other beings.

KuraL 26.1
How can one command grace who eats the flesh of others to swell his own flesh?

02. Manu 4.48
The killing of living beings is not conducive to heaven; hence eating of meat should be avoided.

KuraL 33.4:
What is the perfect path? It is the path of avoiding killing anything.

03. Manu 2.85
An offering, consisting of muttered prayers, is ten times more efficacious than a sacrifice performed according to the rules (of the Veda).

KuraL 26.9
Better than a thousand burnt offerings is one life unkilled and uneaten.

04. Manu 7.103
In (some) cases a man who, though knowing (the facts to be) different, gives such (false evidence) from a pious motive, does not lose heaven.

KuraL 30.2
Even a lie would take the place of truth, if it brings blameless benefit.

05. Manu 5.109
The body is cleansed by water, the internal organ purified by truthfulness.

KuraL 30.8
Water ensures external purity and truthfulness shows the internal.

06. Manu 5.155
If a wife obeys her husband, she will for that (reason alone) be exalted in heaven.

KuraL 6.8
The woman who gains her husband’s love gains great glory in the heaven.

07. Manu 2.57
Excessive eating is prejudicial to health, to fame, and to (bliss in) heaven.

KuraL 95.3
Once digested, eat with moderation. That prolongs the life of one embodied.

08. Manu 7.50
Drinking, dice, women, and hunting, these four (which have been enumerated) in succession, He must know to be the most pernicious in the set that springs from love of pleasure.

KuraL 92.10
Fortune leaves those whose friends are wantons, wine and dice.

09. Manu 3.116
After the Brahmanas, the kinsmen, and the servants have dined, the householder and his wife may afterwards eat what remains.

Should his field be sown, who first feeds the guests and eats the rest?

10. Manu 2.218
As the man who digs with a spade (into the ground) obtains water, even so an obedient (pupil) obtains the knowledge which lies (hidden) in his teacher.

KuraL 40.6
The more you dig a sand-spring, more the flow. The more you learn more the wisdom.

Check the tables 10 and 12 in the link I have given for the similarities between the KuraL and the GItA and Bhartrihari's Shatakas. For that matter most if not all the nItishAstras in Tamil are based on their Sanskrit counterparts. Also not that there was a Chozha king who came to be known as 'Manu-nIti Chozhan' after he killed his son who while driving his chariot killed a calf.

**********

Please note that I have neither read the Manu Smriti nor the TirukkuraL in full; yet I had the willingness to check the facts and look further...

Nara
03 April 2010, 10:35 PM
….and Nara, I pity your brain and narrow mind, ……Are you brainless to understand the difference of making statues and giving education to all ????

Take it easy isavasya, we are just chatting. If you think I am a brainless idiot, I will concede immediately -- desiring what does not belong to me can never bring me bliss, so says isavasya, i.e. the Upanishad, not you of course :).

Peace…

isavasya
03 April 2010, 10:55 PM
Take it easy isavasya, we are just chatting. If you think I am a brainless idiot, I will concede immediately -- desiring what does not belong to me can never bring me bliss, so says isavasya, i.e. the Upanishad, not you of course :).

Peace…

Oh nara does it really feels a pang to know one isavasya calls your idea and perception as brainless ? what about you calling millions of people as haters, including people ho believe in principles of sarve bhavantu sukhina ?

""" The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste """

so you take a unfettred right to attack milions of having maligning intentions but ask others to be at peace , by the way ,it seems you have nothing to say on my previous post, no explanation for maya's, casteism outside hinduism,maoists, castes of hnduism having pride, except your answer that everything evolved after 1947. :)

Nara
03 April 2010, 11:13 PM
…. Your intolerance and prejudice are showing, Nara. Please note that you are already found to make sweeping statements such as "The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste"
Wow Saidevo, my intolerance! Speaking on behalf of the oppressed against the oppressor is intolerance in your opinion.

Please note that I have neither read the Manu Smriti nor the TirukkuraL in full; yet I had the willingness to check the facts and look further...You checked all the facts, did you? How do you know, considering you admit you have not read either text in full? Let me tell you I have, I have read the entirety of Manu Smrithi and Thirukkural several times. Thirukkural is elevating and Manu is demeaning.

I submit to you, just the fact there are some Manu Smrithi verses that have a vague similarity to Thirukkural as interpreted by the likes parimelahagar, which is to be expected considering both are neeti texts, does not mean that Thirukural endorses any of the vile and poisonous ideas of Manu. I request you to look at the literature out there on interpreting Thirukkural, like this one (http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=L4NQBr3q42Tr12nt80WJy6z8tybZZsBGP3hWJWCcypQghcVK3WLT%211802153292%21-348092591?docId=5000163847).

Be that as it may, it seems your point is Tamils are just as bad as the Hindus, which I am ready to concede. The vile Varna system is followed by both Tamils and Hindus with equal gusto.

Cheers!

Nara
03 April 2010, 11:22 PM
.... """ The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste """


Anyone who thinks of himself or herself as upper caste do despise the fact the Dalits are resurgent. Those who are sympathetic to the plight of the Dalits do not consider themselves "upper caste".

You call me brainless and you expect me to answer your questions, sorry brother, first learn to debate with some dignity. Until that time I shall take my energies elsewhere.

peace ....

atanu
03 April 2010, 11:36 PM
Atanu, I don’t agree that Dr. Ambedkar must understand the purport of Purusha Suktam as you see it. He was a political and social leader committed to the welfare of all oppressed people. Further, there are so many "true" purport of the Vedas, which one is he supposed to understand?

peace ....

Namaste Nara

Can you show me where I said that ambedkar has to agree to my understanding? I consider ambedkar a highly ambitious politician misguided by his own amition. There is a difference. Isn't it?

There may be many purports of Veda, but only two purports of Purusha Suktam: One held by all who are guided by sam drishti, that it obliterates all differences and it is universally good. It sublates all apparent divisions to one source. The Second held by Ambedakar, who is guided by sectarian view, that sees politics of domination in Purusha Suktam. That can arise only in a devil's mind, which seeks to gain political mileage which is opposed to goodness. (Though goodness is at the base of everything). That is my considered knowledge as opposed to your considered opinion, which being devoid of sama drishti, is faulty, as per me.

Where Purusha suktam endorses the oneness you endorse the difference.

Even Romilla Thapar does not agree to this Bhim, sorry.

WRT to the blue highlight above, you are correct. To me, who is a votary of sama drishti, Bhim was a partisan politician with a partisan view. With that view he polluted Purusha Suktam.
----------------

Helping the oppressed is one thing and attributing the oppression to alleged political goal of Rishi Narayana is another. The latter is simply an interpretation which is opposed to the intent of Purusha Suktam, which is the highest of all Vedic knowledge that propounds sama drishti.

Cannot help it that you refuse to see the knowledge of common substratum in purusha suktam just as caste oppressors do not see it. Oppression is primeval ignorance. Oppression was there before the Purusha Suktam got written down. And oppression will be there as long as the view of individual is there. Just as Shankara teaches about the folly so that we may overcome the folly, Purusha Suktam also does that. Injunction against study of Veda by all, is just that. Those who have no inkling of the single indivisible Pragnya as the substratum (as known in deep sleep) will interpret everything from their limited particulate stand and pollute the understanding. The pollution will not harm anyone else but the polluter himself, because as Pragnya the polluter is eternal. That is my considered understaniding and not mere opinion.

God willing this is my last post in response to you.

Om Namah Shivaya

isavasya
03 April 2010, 11:55 PM
Anyone who thinks of himself or herself as upper caste do despise the fact the Dalits are resurgent. Those who are sympathetic to the plight of the Dalits do not consider themselves "upper caste".

Nara,

At least show some honesty lest you want to prove yourself smart at twisting your statements. You never intended to speak about a category of upper castes, but took all of upper castes and that too from eternity. Your clear cut statement was "all upper castes" . when government calls one community upper castes, it is not for people who consider themselves upper castes. Dont play around with words and twists, at least when you make a statement and later realize it is costing people ask for your intention, do dare to stand by it.



You call me brainless and you expect me to answer your questions, sorry brother, first learn to debate with some dignity. Until that time I shall take my energies elsewhere.

Nara, it seems your attacking whole religion and a large community as racist and haters makes you dignified, and If I rebuke your support of mayawati's lavish lifestyle as satisfaction for dalits as brainless, you find it undignified. What a double standard mate. Any ways, if you have no answer to my previous post , all I can say is have great day ahead. -:))

....[/quote]

devotee
04 April 2010, 02:28 AM
At least show some honesty lest you want to prove yourself smart at twisting your statements. You never intended to speak about a category of upper castes, but took all of upper castes and that too from eternity. Your clear cut statement was "all upper castes" . when government calls one community upper castes, it is not for people who consider themselves upper castes. Dont play around with words and twists, at least when you make a statement and later realize it is costing people ask for your intention, do dare to stand by it.


Yes, you caught him right. :)

OM

satay
04 April 2010, 02:49 AM
namaskar,
I didn't want to get in this discussion but I am curious and I put forward the following as a thought...

What is the fucntion of a pair of shoes? Is it to wear it on the feet to protect the feet?

Can you imagine some complaining that wearing the shoes on the feet is discrimination against the shoes as they are always on the ground?!

So to satisfy those complainers and politicians, we should start wearing the shoes on our head. That should make everyone happy. No? :rolleyes:

atanu
04 April 2010, 03:24 AM
namaskar,
I didn't want to get in this discussion but I am curious and I put forward the following as a thought...

What is the fucntion of a pair of shoes? Is it to wear it on the feet to protect the feet?

Can you imagine some complaining that wearing the shoes on the feet is discrimination against the shoes as they are always on the ground?!

So to satisfy those complainers and politicians, we should start wearing the shoes on our head. That should make everyone happy. No? :rolleyes:


Namaste Satay

You have given a nice example but the problem and its solution is one step deeper.

As per Shankara (in the context of substratum Brahman and superstratum, the Form), the intelligence of the wearer of the shoe is imposed uopn the shoe and the inertness of the shoe on the wearer. The one who is lamenting of being a shoe is not the shoe. The shoe cannot lament.

The point is: A perfect solution is available from inside to the lamenter, but not from outside through politics. That is why, i understand, Shri Krishna says "Where the yogi sees day, the ignorant sees night and vice versa". I hope, i am not creating more confusion.

Om Namah Shivaya

MahaHrada
04 April 2010, 05:14 AM
I do not agree to the idea that the discriminative viewpoints and repressive and violent behaviour codex described by objectionable parts of the smriti and therefore applied by smarta brahmins and mainly promoted by Adi Shankaracharya and his sampradaya but to a lesser extent also by other vedantins of his epoch and later, can be generalised as to be a part of all, and charges therefore can be applied to all darshanas, neither can one assume that it was a predominant viewpoint or attitude in all periods of indian history, (including the followers of the smriti) It is correct however that during and after the muslim and british rule the anti social elements contained in these darshanas have been even more favoured and promoted than before and could widen their influence on indian society, and therefore were certainly helping to enforce the deplorable situation of the poor and downtrodden castes of post colonial India, while the siddhanta the agamic and tantric darshanas, which were and are in favour of paying equal respect to all jatis, were forbidden, brutally suppressed persecuted and exterminated by the muslim rulers and later the british raj.

To assume that these anti social and discriminative viewpoints and behaviour has been shared by all other darshanas and their Gurus, stemming from widely diverse spiritual and cultural lineages of Hinduism and thriving in different localities and during different epochs of history would be an unfounded extremist position, instead opposing points of view only have become temporarily suppressed and silenced or the darshanas vilified in the course of history.

For instance Abhinavaguptapada in his commentary to the verses of the Bhagavadgita that treat of inferior birth in chapter nine criticises the smarta viewpoints:

Some other commentators however explain that by verse 33 the Lord Krishna did not intend to say that woman etc. could attain liberation but rather his intention was to praise the brahmanas and kshatriya castes. These commentators are rejecting the all merciful nature of God because of their limited knowledge. They do not realise that Paramesvara is the great and all merciful Lord, in this way they contradict the Lords words such as "None i hate nor particularly dislike" as well as other similar statements expressing clearly the same ideas. This in spite of the fact that the non dual nature of the highest reality has been abundentley proved with non refutable arguments. They are also aware that their way of thinking is contradictory to other Agamas as well.
However when asked "How can you say something like this?" These people whose minds are influenced by the evil of caste, etc. which is deeply ingrained in their innermost beings, make grimaces by lowering their eyes and faces because of greed, dissimulation and shame, and talking nonsense in front of all people become the objects of ridicule to all.

His summary of the whole chapter 9 is this:

The all merciful Parashakti, which blesses all living beings blossoms and expands in that unitary conciousness called Brahman, therefore one should strive to attain that highest reality.

Also we should keep in mind that the brahmin Abhinavaguptapada was only one among many other famous and influential Gurus of diverse sampradayas whether ascetics and householders, brahmins or shudras, not only of Kaula sampradaya but also the saints of Natha Parampara like Gorakhnath or Jnanesvar, and those of other shaiva or shakta siddha paramparas in the south like Tirumular, not to speak of the many other lineages like kula, vama and dakshina, mata , etc. plus all the diverse Vaishnava bhaktas , also the sants, kabir panth, Guru Nanak, and others did not have a prejudice against anyone because of birth.

So i respectfully ask to discern between those teachers and darshanas that were and are guilty of the diverse charges of inhuman behaviour and prejudice and the majority of Hindus that were and are free of that vice. Whether any discriminative behaviour of so called "upper castes" is directly or indirectly related to the jati varna societal model or are due to other reasons is another open question i do not adress at all in this posting.

Another important Question is whether the objectionable parts of the smriti are the cause of the societal misconduct and integral part of vedanta, or whether a degeneration of society and misconduct of members of the communities in a certain epoch, was unduly reflected into the written commentaries and therefore distorted the shastras.

Nara
04 April 2010, 10:08 AM
.... but took all of upper castes and that too from eternity. Your clear cut statement was "all upper castes".

Here is what I said, "The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste...", and I stand by this. By this I did not mean each and every individual from these upper castes despise Dalits. I agree I was not precise, for that I apologize.

peace ...

vivendi
04 April 2010, 10:10 AM
Anyone who thinks of himself or herself as upper caste do despise the fact the Dalits are resurgent. Those who are sympathetic to the plight of the Dalits do not consider themselves "upper caste".
I wonder how such b*ll can pass off as secular, freedom loving, compassionate, etc.!!

Let me throw a similar dart. Anyone who thinks of himself or herself as an elitist do despise that brahmins (and Hindus) are the cause of dalit oppression. Those who understand what the scriptures say do not consider themselves as "elitists".

saidevo
04 April 2010, 10:32 AM
namaste Nara.

You began your post no.46 with the words:
Wow Saidevo, my intolerance! Speaking on behalf of the oppressed against the oppressor is intolerance in your opinion.
*****

The 'intolerance and prejudice' I said in you 'are showing' was with reference to my quote of your words about Manu and TirukkuRaL, and you know it. When you said that the KuRaL is a 'preeminent Tamil law book' and 'the less said, the better' about the Manu Smriti, I pointed out that it is again a sweeping statement such as the one you made earlier (which you since corrected).

In my post no.43, I have not said anything about/against your "speaking on behalf of the oppressed against the oppressor"; I only took exception to your statement that sought to compare the KuRaL and the Manu Smriti.

*****

Whatever your opinion about the related nature of these two books, Tamil scholars who are unbiased unlike you have found striking similarities between the work of TiruvaLLuvar with that of not just Manu but with other several Sanskrit works.

Here are some more details for the sake of putting the record straight:

• Sri P.S.SubrahmaNya ShAstrigaL, Ex-Principal of Tiruvaiyar College and a great Oriental Scholar well versed in Sanskrit and Tamil, has prepared a work entitled 'Balar Urai' for the Aiathuppal of TirukkuRaL. Under each KuRaL he has given parallel quotations from the Mahabharata, the Upanishads and Manusmriti, and has brought out the striking similarity of ideas between the Tamil work and the Sanskrit works.

• Sri PaNDitamaNi Kadiresan Chettiar, rendering Kautilya’s Arthasastra in Tamil has quoted the Kural in many places and has shown how greatly the same ideas are echoed in the two works.

• Sri V.R.RAmachandra DikShitar has set out the line-to-line correspondence between TirukkuRaL and Sanskrit works as shown below:

‣ Part I - ‘On Virtue’ (AratthuppAl): With ideas in Rigveda, RAmAyaNa, MahAbhArata, ParAsara-saMhitA, and Srimad (BhAgavatam).

‣ Part II Wealth (Polity): With ideas in Kainantaka nIti, Kautilya’s Artha ShAstra, Sukra nIti and Bodhayana SmRti.

‣ Part III - 'On love': with ideas in VatsyAyana’s KAmasUtras.

Not only such ideas but also pure Sanskrit terms — over 125 in number-have been used by VaLLuvar-—This has been stressed by Prof. S.VaiyApuri PiLLai, who has also boldly expressed the view that TirukkuRaL should have been composed only in the 6th Century A.D. He has further indicated that the chapters on ‘Nature of fortifications (AraNiyalbu)’, 'Espionage' and 'Messenger'(Ambassador) are derived from Kautilya’s 'Artha ShAstra'.

• The great Tamil Scholar, Prof.S.VaiyApuri Pillai is the author of a book entitled 'Ilakkia ViLakkam'. It contains an essay—-'VaLLuvar and Manu'. This is what he says in it on page 97: "Many chapters in TirukkuRaL embody the ideas contained in many Sanskrit works. Many KuraLs are translations of Manu’s work." He has quoted the relevant passages in support of his statements.

• Pandit S.N.Sriramadesikan, his Website at http://sriramadesikan.com/publications/tirukkural/ concludes:

TiruvaLLuvar was thoroughly familiar with Sanskrit works and had mastered the teachings of Jainism, Buddhism and Vedanta. He must have realised that it was beyond the capacity of the ordinary man to learn and assimilate all that has to be learnt from the Dharmasasiras and Vedas and hence he has epitomized their essentials in his Tirukkural for the benefit of the common man.

*****

If Parimelazhagar's translation is generally anathema to the atheists of the DK/DMK parties, and you too take exception to it because he quotes Manu, here is the view of G.U.Pope, a Christian orientalist who published his translation of the KuRaL in 1931:

• The Sacred KuRaL by G.U.Pope

In the treatment of Dharma and Artha, i.e. Virtue and Wealth, the poet follows the general lines of Aryan ethics, and he had evidently studied many of the Sanskrit works either in the original or through a translation. He clearly borrows from both the Mdnava Dharma Sdstra of Manu and from the Artha Sdstra of Kautilya, and shows acquaintance with other Sanskrit works such as the Panchatantra, Hitopadesa, Rdmdyana, Mahdbhdrata and the Nitisara. His obligation to Kautilya is particularly evident, as is pointed out further on. In the notes also frequent references will be found to Sanskrit works in which the thoughts of our author occur. But in all this * he displays an originality of treatment and a sequence of ideas entirely his own.'

KuRaL 41:
The ideal householder is he
Who aids the natural orders there.

Manu 3.78:
3.78. Because men of the three (other) orders are daily supported by the householder with (gifts of) sacred knowledge and food, therefore (the order of) householders is the most excellent order.

G.U.Pope's Notes:
1. The three orders referred to are the three orders outside the order of domestic life, namely, Brahmachari, Vanaprasthan, Sannyasi. These have to be supported by the householder (Grihasthan). The Ndladiydr, which was written about three centuries later, exalts the ascetic state over against the domestic state. See also Manu 3:78.

*****

KuRaL 43:
By dutiful householder's aid
God, manes, kin, self and guests are served.

Manu 3.72:
But he who does not feed these five, the gods, his guests, those whom he is bound to maintain, the manes, and himself, lives not, though he breathes.

3. Dr.Pope points out that this is almost a translation of Manu 3:72.
Pitris, the word used for 'ancestors' means 'the southern dwellers,' the ancient Hindu name for one's deceased ancestors.

*****

KuRaL 57:
Of what avail are watch and ward?
Their purity is women's guard.

Manu 9.12.
Women, confined in the house under trustworthy and obedient servants, are not (well) guarded; but those who of their own accord keep guard over themselves, are well guarded.

G.U.Pope's Notes:
7. There is a play on words here by the poet. The Tamil word for prison is 'siRai' and that for chastity 'niRai'. See also Manu 9:12.

*****

KuRaL chapter 39 'on the grandeur of monarchy' and
Manu chapter 9:
G.U.Pope says: The whole of this chapter is reminiscent of Manu Smriti, chapter 7.

*****

You said in your OP "I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist", which in itself is contradictory, not to speak of your utter disbelief as a scientist, in afterlife and divine consciousness. Perhaps it is this desire in you to reconcile these warring points of view that prompt you to make blind, sweeping, and prejudiced statements against the Hindu ShAstras, specially the Manu and other Dharma ShAstras, under the garb of defending the dalits, forgetting in the bid, that a primary responsibility of a rationalist is to be unprejudiced and unemotional.

vivendi
04 April 2010, 10:43 AM
You said in your OP "I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist", which in itself is contradictory,
Its like saying "I am fond of you, even though I despise you". Not everyone sees through this crocodile statement and believe the compassionists are really compassionate. Have seen enough people who call themselves compassionate and do something exactly the opposite.

saidevo
04 April 2010, 10:57 AM
namaste Satay.

You have a way of presenting truths with hilarious statements, kudos!

The PuruSha SUkta does not talk about just the ShUdras as created from the Lord's feet. It also talks about the very earth being created out of his feet: "padhyam bhUmi", PS 15. To whom should the poor bhUmi complain about having been created from a lowly part of the Lord?

It could become sensible/fashionable to walk with the sandals on the head, as Bharata did with bhakti. But these the political atheists want the non-dalits to walk on their hands or even on their head so the feet always stay at the top!


namaskar,
I didn't want to get in this discussion but I am curious and I put forward the following as a thought...

What is the fucntion of a pair of shoes? Is it to wear it on the feet to protect the feet?

Can you imagine some complaining that wearing the shoes on the feet is discrimination against the shoes as they are always on the ground?!

So to satisfy those complainers and politicians, we should start wearing the shoes on our head. That should make everyone happy. No? :rolleyes:

Nara
04 April 2010, 11:00 AM
Dear MahaHrada, Greetings!

Thank you, your calm tone is indeed a welcome treat.

Let me comment on a few points you have raised.

You are of course right, not all Hindu sampradaya are equally rigid about Varna system. I appreciate the excerpt you have cited from Abhinavaguptapada. All along the religious history there have been many attempts to reform the system, some of which you cite. Let me add to that list.

Some 1300 years ago, long before the Moguls and British, we see stark evidence of untouchability in the stories of Nandanar and Thiruppanazvar. Both stories end with the Dalit being accepted, Nandanar after an ordeal by fire and therefore after he was dead and was made into a saint, and Thiruppanazhvar being carried on the shoulders of the chief priest of Sri Rangam temple. The stories do end on a high note, but they also paint a picture of abject oppression that was the norm and only the rare saintly types escaped, albeit after purification by fire -- what kind of escape that is I wonder!

A little later, around 1000 years ago, some Sri Vaishnavas attempted to bring some reform. One Acharya went so far as to say only the ignorant practice Varnashrama. Their birth is the lowliest. Their knowledge and skill will be rejected as equal to “ahuthi” poured into heap of ash, and, decoration on a cadaver or a widow. Powerful repudiation of Varnadharma, that too by a Brahmin Sri vaishnava acharya.

More recently, there is the case of Arya Samaj. They also tried to reform the Varnashrama Dharma. But, all these attempts finally petered out with nothing much to show for. The reason is the very nature of Varna. It just cannot be practiced without it degenerating into a birth-based discriminatory caste system for the reasons I outlined in my response to Smaranam (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=42469&postcount=39).

cheers!

Nara
04 April 2010, 12:04 PM
... When you said that the KuRaL is a 'preeminent Tamil law book' and 'the less said, the better' about the Manu Smriti,

Saidevo, both Thirukkural and Manu are books of code people are supposed to live by. So, it is not a wonder that there are similarities here and there. Sanjaya found similarities between Hindu puranas and Christian scripture.

Let me say what I said slightly differently, IMO, a life modeled after Thirukkural will be an ethical one appreciated by most people, even the ones who are unable to practice it for one reason or another. However, a life modeled after Manu will be a degrading one despised by all except the one practicing it or wish they would be practicing it. I can cite verse after verse to prove this point. These are available in sacred-texts.com web site (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm) for all to look at.

So, I stand by what I said earlier. If that makes me intolerant in your eyes, that is alright, I will survive.


.. You said in your OP "I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist", which in itself is contradictory, not to speak of your utter disbelief as a scientist, in afterlife and divine consciousness. Perhaps it is this desire in you to reconcile these warring points of view that prompt you . I don’t know why being fond of Hinduism seem contradictory to you. To be an Atheist do I have to loath all aspects of a culture to which I belong?

Also, brother Saidevo, why are you after me on my atheism? I am not commenting on your theism, am I? Please leave me to my own devices. I am not making any sweeping statements about all aspects of Hindu scripture. My criticism has been only on the Varna system aspects. The rest, I just don’t believe in, that is all.

Citing verses to compare Manu and Thirukkural is a valid argument. Saying I am intolerant, prejudiced, etc., is not. I just don’t understand why it is so hard for you guys to refrain from making personal comments? It may make you guys feel good, or give a boost, but it takes a lot out of me to keep hearing this all the time and not retaliate in kind, it is really becoming very tiresome. I have said much more pointed stuff in TamilBrahmins.com, and have had heated debates too, but in the most part, except for one or two people, there were no personal comments. Here, the proportion seems the opposite, except for one or two here and there, the rest can’t seem to restrain themselves from making personal comments. This itself is going to get some personal comments I am sure.

For all the anger and fury, I have not seen anyone taking my opening post and rebut my points one by one. There have been nibbling at the edges and personal sniping. From this point onwards I will respond only if a post is completely free of any personal comments.

saidevo
04 April 2010, 12:29 PM
Alright Nara, let me rephrase my statements since you take them to be personal references:

I agree that you may not be intolerant, prejudicial and in the habit of making sweeping statements, so:

• your denunciation of the Manu Smriti and your brushing aside the possibility that the objectionable verses might be due to interpolations, seems to indicate thoughts of intolerance and prejudice--but I might be wrong.

Please read this article--'maRupaDiyum manu smriti' by MalarMannan here:
http://www.thinnai.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=20703082&format=html

• your brushing aside the striking similarities between the verses of TirukkuRaL and Manu Smriti besides the other Sanskrit scriptures is perhaps indicative of your prejudice for the one against the other--but then I might be wrong.

These said, I am not prepared to buy your argument that living by TirukkuRaL would be far better than living by the Manu Smriti. I do agree that some verses in the Manu Smriti are objectionable but then I believe that they might be due to interpolations, that's all. It is again indicative of thoughts of intolerance and prejudice, parrotting that brahmins are responsible for the plight of the dalits and that they must take the responsibility, specially when you seem to support politicians like Mayavati--but once again, I may be wrong here.

If my frequent references to your being an atheist hurts you in way, I am sorry. While it is never my intention to hurt your feelings, I can't help the impression that such a well-read man in the Hindu scriptures chooses to remain an atheist, believing solely in the knowledge of physical science.

Nara
04 April 2010, 03:48 PM
.... let me rephrase my statements since you take them to be personal references:

... perhaps indicative of your prejudice for the one against the other--but then I might be wrong.

.... It is again indicative of thoughts of intolerance and prejudice, parrotting

.... you seem to support politicians like Mayavati--but once again, I may be wrong here.







.... If my frequent references to your being an atheist hurts you in way, I am sorry. While it is never my intention to hurt your feelings,
Apology not needed -- aside: if it was felt it must be offered unconditionally, or else not at all. It is not about my feelings, it is about relevance, which apparently is an alien concept for many here.

isavasya
04 April 2010, 05:00 PM
Here is what I said, "The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste...", and I stand by this. By this I did not mean each and every individual from these upper castes despise Dalits. I agree I was not precise, for that I apologize.

peace ...


Better.



I have not seen anyone taking my opening post and rebut my points one by one. There have been nibbling at the edges and personal sniping. From this point onwards I will respond only if a post is completely free of any personal comments.

Nara, I thought my posts were overlooked! Anyways, let me offer another reply.

Now you have come to Hinduism forum and have charged my religion with it being discriminatory. You have quoted smriti which veda dharm itself doesnt authorizes. I am still putting some logic and rational reply to clear varna dharma from your charges of discrimination.


You believe varna system as the cause of jati pratha. Now let me quote from a unbiased website.

Ali Anwar's book, 'Masawat ki Jung' has sent a sever down the spines of Muslim elites as it dwells at length on the plight of dalit Muslims derided and treated as pariahs by the upper caste brethren and ulemas.


The book written in the Hindustani language illustrates in detail how the small number of upper caste Muslims who constitute only 15 per cent of the total Muslim population in India have been enjoying control over the religious, political and social institutions of the country for centuries.

The book also holds the Muslm ulemmas responsible for the plight of the dalit Muslims. "Why these ulemmas don't wage a crusade against the casteism and inequality which are against the basic tenets of Islam", the author asks, adding: " these ulemmas mainly belonging to upper castes dominate the rich religious and charity related bodies."





The book says that the dalit and backward Muslims who constitute more than 75 per cent of the total Muslim population in the country are now awakened to the "reality" that the Muslim political and religious leadership "dominated by the upper castes" will not raise their (dalit Muslim's) cause. But in a bid to guard their "vested interests, the likes of Sayed Shahabuddin and several ulemmas are now clamouring for the reservation for all the poor Muslims in the Government job". "It's yet another design to perpetuate the hegemony of Sheikhs, Pathans and Malliks-the high caste Muslims-who have been ruling the mosques, Muslims' religious and charity related bodies and the politics."


http://www.bihartimes.com/book_review/book_review5.html


Nara,

so here you have a religion which propagates on principles of equality completely indulged in castiesm and inequality. The same goes for sikhism, in many forums sikhs claim to be more humanitarian than hindus, often ridiculing brahmanical religion of inequality, at the same time distance between elite jat sikhs and dalit sikhs is much more discernible than in hinduism. Now as far as inequality is concerned or few caste's dominance is concerned, countries like afghanistan and pakistan will be above India. In india there is democracy thats why you hear the voices.sheikhs dominance in arab world is almost unchallenged. By mentioning about other religions and other countries I am no way giving excuse, jati pratha or casteism, clanism is definitely wrong and a big concern. But by citing these examples of other religions and regions I have rebuked your theory that casteism or inequality stems from varna dharma. Dr. B.R ambedkar has also criticized Islam and other religions for casteism,.




Nara another thing which makes me surprised is your political view. Calling mayawati's lavishness or domains of her politics which brings no good to society as anguished satisfaction for dalits is not showing a healthy spirit. Even if there are resurgent dalits, this unproductive politics will not bring any one to light. I believe a politician or politics which is free from bias of caste or religion is much better for every one. Dalits growth or brahmins growth lies in mutual growth of society and certainly not in few hot headed dalits getting satisfaction of seeing dalit moortis. our country is a poor one and certainly believing in us vs them is backward mentality which will hinder the growth of whole society. Also I told you this social struggle in India is more a class struggle. being from MCC (maoist) infested part of India, I know life can be as difficult for a forward caste as not even for dalits.

Also I have done plenty of official research regarding caste system, and that was lot before joining hdf and completely unbiased. I had one full presentation on caste system in my final year in delhi university. Did lots of interview and thats why I told you pride feeling is definitely present in all castes, because of their distinct culture and heritage. Thats not a after 1947 or after constitution thing. Apart from that, this feeling of resurgence which you or as a matter of fact caste feeling itself doesnt lies in all dalits or all hindus. Most people in urban area, especially educated ones are busy in making their livings or acheiving their goals. Some good leader in India can bring absolte differnce.


Last but not the least, some one quoted acharya abhinavgupt, i will like to confirm, all major north Indian schools of thoughts,including age old pashupata shaivism, kashmiri shavism, goraknath shavism, shakta schools,tantra schools, even ramanandi sect of vaishnavism or gaudiya vaishnavism of bengal or even south Indian school of veerashavism to arya samaj or school of neoadvaita (vivekananda-ramkrishna) have no constrains of birth system. I will like you to give some thought, I do say, inequality can be political discussion but certainly its not right to attack a religion or make charges on one religion.

Nara
04 April 2010, 06:47 PM
Better.

Isavasya, let me be clear, I am not taking anything back, the only thing I regret is allowing an opening for a frontal attack on a triviality while the main points remain unanswered. A lot of people in HDF routinely attack me in a personal way, and you are one of them. Therefore, I am not inetersed in having a discussion with you. Sorry!

saidevo
04 April 2010, 11:02 PM
The brAhmaNas and the Dalits



Some people say this is not the fault of the Varna system, Brahmanas are not involved; it is all political and economic. Why then are the conflicts falling along caste lines? A poor upper caste may find his lot not very different from that of a poor Dalit, but he will still side with the rich of his own caste. There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty.


Did brAhmaNas introduce the concept of untouchability?

The charge that it was only the brAhmaNas who introduced untouchability of the Dalits is baseless, while it was true that they were among the upper castes who practised it; it was also true that the practice of untouchability of brAhmaNas against the Dalits was only at a personal and religious level and not social, unlike that of the other castes who harassed the Dalits and continue to harass them today, socially.

In any of the Tamil texts that speak of the Hindu religion--TolkAppiyam, Sangham and post-Sangham literature, and the bhakti literature--there is no evidence for the brAhmaNas introducing untouchability of the Dalits.

A Tamil scholar, SAmi Chidambaram, who supported the policies of the Dravidian parties but changed his stand in his later years of life, has written a research work titled 'TolkAppiya Tamizhar', wherein he has rebutted the charge that brAhmaNas introduced untouchability. He says that such charge is purely based on hatred.

NAyanmAr Tiru JnAna Sambandhar

Tiru JnAna Sambandhar is one of the leading four NAyanmArs of the Shaiva Bhakti movement in Tamilnadu. He was a brAhmaNa. His close friend and associate was a man called Tiru NIlakaNTha YAzhppANar who was born in a caste considered untouchable in those days. NIlakaNTha and his wife not only stayed with Sambandhar, but travelled with him, playing the musical instrument yAzh--lyre, (which is why he was called yAzhppANar) when Sambandhar was singing.

A man called TirunIlanakka NAyanAr, who was an orthodox brAhmaNa performing daily yajnas in his home, lived in a place called SAttamangai. He welcomed Sambandhar and his harijan friend; he and his wife dined with them, and when Sambandar sought to stay in their house, he gave NIlakaNTha and his wife, a place to sleep in the very hall where the sacred yajna kuNDas called vedika was located.

Prof.A.S.JnAna Sambandhan, a famous Tamil scholar hails the social revolution of Sambandha who was a RigVeda brAhmaNa, in keeping with him a harijan and says that there could be no other better social revolution than this. SekkizhAr too in his 'PeriyapurANam' mentions about Sambandha who took his harijan friend and wife with him.

AchArya RAmAnuja

RAmAnuja, founder of the vishiShtadvaita darshan, was a brAhmaNa who was born in ShrIPerumpudUr in Tamilnadu. As every Hindu knows, although he believed in the varNa system, he did not consider anyone untouchable. When he obtained from the Delhi Sultan and brought back the ViShNu vigraha to install it in the temple, he was helped towards a safe passage en route by the harijans, when the Sultan's soldiers hunted for him.

In appreciation of their help and protection, RAmAnuja allowed the harijans to enter and worship in the temple, which was eight centuries ago, when there was stiff opposition to it. SvAmi VivekAnanda has appreciated RAmAnuja's efforts.

Jayendra Sarasvati SvAmigaL

In the current time, shrI Jayendra Sarasvati SvAmigaL, presiding pontiff of the KAnchi Shankara MaTham, often visits the places where Dalits live, partake their religious events and give them his prasAdams and blessings. This has been appreciated by several Dalit pramukhas--notables.

The Tamil magazine 'Kumudam Reporter' in its issue dated 04 Mar 2010 has written about the graceful actions of shrI ShivaprakAsha Deshika ParamAchArya SvAmigaL, who is the 23rd pontiff of the Shaiva MaTham TiruvAvaDuturai AdhInam, holding the position for the last 25 years, recently visited the villages where the caste Arundatiyars (considered Dalits) stay, gave them a lecture, and with his own hands smeared vibhUti to the men and children of the villages, to their astonishment that a leading Hindu AchArya actually touched them. He said that his close association with the Dalits was to prevent the Christian missionaries preying on them.

The initiatives taken up during the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th by the three most popular Hindus who were all brAhmaNas is too well known to mention here. These there men were: RAjArAm Mohan Rai, SvAmi DayAnanda Sarasvati, RAmakRShNa ParamahaMsa.

A similarly famous and great revolutionary in Tamilnadu was the mahAkavi SubrahmaNya BhArati, a jnAni par excellence, who spoke severely against varNa and jAti in his popular poems and fought for the Dalits in his daily life. While the members of the Justice Party which was the parent party for the DrAviDa Kazhagam of EV RAmasvAmi, sided with the British and accused BhArati as a 'pArppanar'--brahmin, BhArati's disciple BhArati Dasan who thus changed his real name Kanaka Subburatinam, supported his guru and said, "before him (BhArati), for many centuries, I have not seen anyone thus opposing the jAti concept. Nevertheless, the then Justice Party government of the Madras Presidency imposed a ban on BhArati's sons, a fact unknown to many Dalits, who are made to believe that the Justice Party and DK of EVR were only their staunch supporters and then all the brahmins were their enemies. Only after the Congress rule was formed in the state in 1937 under the leadership of RAjAji, was the ban lifted.

Who harass the Dalits in actuality?

Dr.A.PadmanAbhan, IAS, former Governor of Mizoram, in his book 'Dalits at the cross-roads' has explained as to who in actuality seek to harass the Dalits:

"The perpetrators of crime, atrocities, rape, tyranny in the name of caste, untouchability, etc. in rural India on the Scheduled Castes are mostly from the Backward classes.

"There are also cases involving upper castes. But the majority of the culprits belong to those sections, who are brought under 'Dalit' along with the Scheduled Caste and Tribes by certain leaders."

This is the current state obtaining against the Dalits, especially in Tamilnadu. Today, brAhmaNas in no way involved in the oppression of the Dalits in Tamilnadu.

Gandhiji's campaign against untouchability

When Mahatma Gandhi initiated a campaign against untouchability and ordered people all over India to work for it, the brAhmaNas were fully appreciative of it, and many of them were actively involved in it, in the face of the deliberate vilifying campaign of EVR and his people in Tamilnadu.

• The first government to end untouchability in India, in practice and law, was the Trivancore government headed by Sir C.P.RAmasvAmi Aiyar. His efforts were much appreciated by KAmarAj, Dr.P.SubbharAyan, Karumuthu ThyAgarAja CheTTiar, Dr.C.O.KaruNAkaran and GAndhiji himself--who were all not brAhmaNas.

• A former CM and the last Governor General of independent India, ShrI RAjAgopAlAchArya's efforts in the upliftment of Dalits are too well known to be mantioned. For all such efforts, RAjAji was ostracised from the brahmin community, but he met their opposition with even more intensified efforts. There were several brahmins who supported RAjAji and they were all ostracised. There were also non-brahmins who criticized RAjAji for his efforts of Dalit upliftment.

More in a subsequent post.

atanu
04 April 2010, 11:16 PM
It is not about my feelings, it is about relevance, which apparently is an alien concept for many here.

??????? From all posts we find that only one person is relevant and logical and intelligent.

Is my statement a personal attack? Actually a wrongdoer may not even know why the society and all in it seem irrelevant, illogical, immature etc. etc. Since, the wrongdoer at the moment is stuck with a fish bone in throat.

The above is a general comment which applies to me, first.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
04 April 2010, 11:35 PM
Dear friends (including Nara)

Shri Nara has said that no one has answered him in full and only the irrelevant fringes have with tackled.

It is difficult to tackle emotion with rational arguments, but Shri Nara's whole argument is like this:

Einstein taught about equivalence of matter and energy. USA dropped atom bomb on Japan. So, Einstein and his knowledge are blots for humanity. Those who study and teach Einstein's theories are blots and less intelligent. The theories of Relativity should be banished from science courses, since with that knowledge more and more atom bombs are being made.

There are societies which came after Hindu society and many of Hindu rationalists point out that those new religions do not profess caste differences. These are loaded apriori views. Has the so-called caste less philosophy ridden the world of hatred and crime?

Frankly speaking, I find Shri Nara unbending -- not intent upon a common understanding; or he does not understand but harbors a picture of calm rationality.

But since he has raised questions, I personally will try to jot down some observations against the first post. Just as the 'VA-Advaita' post did not reach any common understanding, this also will not reach, since that is not the goal. But this may clarify a few things for true rationalists.

Om Namah Shivaya

saidevo
04 April 2010, 11:43 PM
namaste Nara.

I hope you understand that when I/we use phrases such as prejudice, intolerance, and the like against you, they are only against your statments and not against you as a person. Even the references to your being an atheist are only by way of raising points against your belief which is atheism, just as your callous references to Hinduism are not attacks against our personal religious preferences. As I said, an atheist has no set of doctrines/scriptural texts to go by, each has a set of own principles that differ among atheists, which is perhaps why our references to your being an atheist and atheism look personal to you. Further, you have said that you were born as a brahmin and an active VaiShNava, but now an avowed atheist, and yet you quote VaiShNava AchAryas and principles to illustrate your point, besides quoting from the Science. Thus, the remnants of VaiShNava in you are constantly attacking/taking exceptions to, the atheist in you!

When cornered by people like Vivendi and Isavasya by solid points against your statements, you choose to pick up any personal references they made (which were purely out of emotional defence rather than calculated slander), ignore responding to their points and say, "It's all just a conversation." Of course, even in a friendly conversation, personal references for their own sake must be avoided, but then as the person who started the thread, you needs must reply to all the solid points in the same way you choose to freely criticize any defensive, religious points made by other members.


.... let me rephrase my statements since you take them to be personal references:

... perhaps indicative of your prejudice for the one against the other--but then I might be wrong.

.... It is again indicative of thoughts of intolerance and prejudice, parrotting

.... you seem to support politicians like Mayavati--but once again, I may be wrong here.






Apology not needed -- aside: if it was felt it must be offered unconditionally, or else not at all. It is not about my feelings, it is about relevance, which apparently is an alien concept for many here.

atanu
05 April 2010, 01:19 AM
NamasteShri Nara

You have alleged that no one has answered you in full and only the irrelevant fringes have with tackled. Actually it is difficult to tackle an emotion with rational arguments. You have basically only one point that is similar to the following:

Einstein taught about equivalence of matter and energy. USA dropped atom bomb on Japan. So, Einstein and his knowledge are blots for humanity. Those who study and teach Einstein's theories are blots and less intelligent. The theories of Relativity should be banished from science courses, since with that knowledge more and more atom bombs are being made.

There are religions that came after Vedic religion, professing castelessness. Have these the so-called caste less philosophies ridden the world of hatred and crime? Actually, if the world was not full of these apparent differences, created by ego, then there would be no need for scriptural knowledge, which are revealed from beyond ego realms.

The world has had oppressions and many uprisings but nothing has changed. Actually it is for one to change oneself.

But since you wished that answer to your opinions should be provided, they are provided below. Just as we reached no common ground in that other thread, here also i do not expect a common understanding emerging and you acknowledging even a single argument as valid. The following is thus for the record:
-------------------------------------------------------------


Greetings my fellow humans!
Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?
Greetings fellow traveller

We will unblot, I say.


In this presentation I will be using the terms Jati and Varna interchangeably. Many will undoubtedly object. We have already gone over this in a different thread. The fact of the matter is, the Brahmin orthodoxy, from whom the legitimacy of Varna system is derived, holds these two concepts, i.e., Jati and Varna, as closely related, and in common parlance it is alright to use the two terms interchangeably. In support of this I present the following from the web site of Kanchi Kamakoti Matam (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap1.htm):
"There are four varnas - Brahmin, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. We identify "varnas" with "jatis". In point of fact, varna and jati are not the same. The varnas are only the four mentioned above, that is Brahmins, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. Within each there are many jatis. Among Brahmins there are Ayyars, Ayyangars, Raos, and so on. In the fourth varna there are Mudaliars, Pillais, Reddis, Naikkars, Nayudus, Gaundars, Padayacis."

"In common parlance jati is used for varna. I am also using the two as interchangeable terms. "
I will follow the Kanchi Kamakoti Matam’s definition under which (i) Jati is simply a further sub-division of varna, and (ii) in common parlance, Varna and Jati may be used interchangeably.


Your whole argument is based on the premise that varNa and jAti are exactly equivalent and that a born Brahmin remains the oppressor Brahmin throughout the life. Actually with a single act of oppression, Brahmin or any one becomes lower than a Sudra -- like a mosquito or something similar.

Take out the premise of exact equivalence of varNa and jAti and your whole argument falls.

It is clear that varNa and jAti are not same. But for practical purpose, for deciding upon specific study/ritual//vocation jAti is used as an indicator of varNa. This association cannot be fully wrong, since the spiritual has to have some reflection in the material.


Sri Vaishnavas also follow the above definition, and I suspect of Madwas do as well. Further, this is how Varna is commonly understood. In the common consciousness of Hindu society, Jati and Varna have remained synonymous. If a claim is made that a nuanced understanding of the texts is needed to really appreciate that Varna has nothing to do with birth, only Jati does, then one might ask how a common man can be expected to see this nuance when even great Acharyas like Adi Shanaka and Bhagavat Ramanuja did not?

It is an assumption that the nuance of varNa-karma-jAti was lost upon great acharyas. But the nuance, even if explained, will not penetrate some dense consciousness. No acharya has taught discrimination or hatred. They have all taught sama drishti, even at times of agression. Shankara has taught that knowledge is not barred from anyone. Actually, it can only be knowledge through which anyone can progress to a clearer varNa -- which is the colour of the veil.

As per Hindu thought, a particular life is less than a speck in the scale of kAla. varNa is not a fixed designation and a Brahmin is likely to fall to a sudra status with a single mistake. So, the vile language of MS does not peratin to a born Sudra but anyone who does not act in compliance to the overall teaching "All is in Self and Self is in All". To realise that, a knowledge of the three eternal gunas and four varNas that constitute the the world of mind is required. Like it was said earlier that to understand gravitation, an observation of an apple falling and not flying is required.



From Vedas, Smrithees, and Ithihasa prunas, we are told the Lord made the four Varnas according to gunas and actions; as a function of accumulated papa and punya, people are born into one of these Varnas; these births are infused with a mix of three gunas with one of the three predominating, for example Satva for Brahmins, etc.; just birth is not sufficient, but one must fulfill the prescribed duties to truly belong to a Varna. Of the four Varnas, only Shudra is once born and because of this he is forbidden from studying Shruti. His source of knowledge is only Ithihasa puranas. Shanakara and Ramanuja cite Manu 10.4 to establish this. They also cites Taittria Samhita 7.1.1.6, which says Shudra are not permitted to perform yagnas, to prove that Shudras are not permitted to study the Vedas.

The understanding here is not complete. Or intentionally it is written like this.

First, Sruti clarifies that the four varNa-s are functional parts of Purusha. There cannot be any discrimination of lower and higher.

Second, Shankara, in the same bhashya emphasizes that there is no knowledge bar to anyone.

Third, will you allow your 5 year old child to play with electicity or fire? It is understood that a Brahmin, Kshatriya, or Vaishya fall to Sudra hood, by doing wrong or by discarding the knowledge of one whole. Should, such immature people be given access to Veda? Will you allow your 5 year kid to drive your car?


Why is this objectionable, say some, by claiming that these are just duties, not privileges? A heavy load of stringent duties are prescribed to Brahmanas, and papa will result if these prescribed duties are abandoned. Whereas, there are no ritual duties for Shudras and therefore Shudras are not subject to sins that result from abandonment of ritual duties.

Yes, all this cannot be objected to, if this is a voluntary system and there is no force.

Friend. You are making it non-voluntary. A Sudra who is not supposed to read scripture will not know all these. There is no teaching of any force, except in cases of wilfull misconduct. But scriptures themselves (for example MS) teach that the rules apply to only those who will live a life of yagna (from birth till death). Also, the Smriti proclaims that in matters of Dharma, the Veda is the root. In Veda we see no teaching that can be even construed as discriminatory.


If the Varna system promises a cushy life for Shudras, would they not be happy to stay in that station and never try to free themselves from Shudrahood? Why then take the trouble of warning them of severe consequences if they transgress? Gautama Smrithi says Shudra are like cemetery and warns that the ears of a Shudra who hear the chanting of Vedas must be filled with molten lead. If he dares reciting Vedas his tongue is to be slit and his body is to be cut. What is the point of such harshness?

All your problems stem from non-acceptance of a single purusha. And that is the very reason why Veda is strictly prohibited for immature. See what Bhim did with Purusha Suktam? He even infers politics in Narayana.

I need to see the exact reference from Gautama Smriti to read the context. Can you please give the references?

Moreover, i personally oppose interpretation of similar scriptures from Bible and Koran. Because scripture is not literal. When scripture says uproot your enemy mercilessly, a common man reads and understands: uproot your enemy whose name is Nara. Actually scripture means: Uproot your enemy, the ignorance of discreteness and separateness. All gurus have taught so but being immature we forget this. Anyway, at this stage I can only request you not to stoop to the level of criticism for criticism sake and enquire of the full context.


But, what is very disheartening is the fact that both Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite the above injunctions to establish that Vedas should not be taught to Shudra. The practice of keeping out Shudra from Vedic study is followed even in these modern times. No Veda Pathashala run by Brahmnical institutions will accept a Shudra child in their midst.

Veda can be taught to any student who is ripe. All your inferences are drawn from a faulty basis that varNa is jAti. (IMO: But scripture should not reach hands of such as Bhimrao Ambedkar, who do not hesitate to see politics in Rishi Narayana).


Some argue that Varnashrama darma is a means by which one purifies one’s soul, a prerequisite for moksha. ----. Just look at the following injunctions against Shudra described in Manu Smrithi.
8.270 says Shudra are of low origin.
2.31 says a Shudra must be named something contemptible
3.164 equates a breeder of sporting-dogs, a falconer, one who defiles maidens, he who delights in injuring living creatures, he who gains his subsistence, with Shudra.
8.147 says a Brahmana can just seize the goods of Shudra for he is not permitted to have any property
9.178 says a son a Brahmana begets through lust on a Shudra female is a living corpse -- who is to determine it is by lust or true love, I don’t know!!
10.129 says a Shudra is not allowed to accumulate wealth because Shudra with wealth will give pain to Brahmanas.
11.131 & 132 equate the punishment for murdering a Shudra with that of cat, dog, frog, bird, etc. The punishment can be as mild and beneficial to Brahmana as giving ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana.
Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate. --

This has been answered already. Additionally I say that a Brahmana very easily falls and becomes like a cat or a rat. So, these injunctions are not birth based. That some use them for ulterior purpose is not unknown. Therefore, it is said that the scripture should not be read by everyone.

You yourself will not allow your kid to drive your car. Moreover, one cannot hold Einstein responsible for bombing of Hiroshima-Nagasaki.


One may be tempted to brush aside Manu Smrithi as an unimportant or irrelevant text. But, if you did, you will be contradicting great acharyas like Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja, both of whom cite Taittria Samhita 2.2.10.2 to extol MS as medicine for society’s ills, like an anti-biotic perhaps. Both these acharyas profusely quote from MS to bolster their arguments. A widely respected commentator of the acclaimed Tamil text on morality called Thirukkural, who happens to be Brahmin (Parimelazhagar), uses MS extensively in his commentary. So, as we can see, MS was held in high regard among Brahmin orthodoxy and intellectuals, and this is still true among the Brahmin orthodoxy.

MS is not unimportant.

It is actually a severe thing for spirit (which is Bliss in itself) to behave like matter and get entangled in never ending pain. It is truly a serious matter. And with all seriousness, the MS teaches against the follies. If you studied the follies then you will find that all of them related to hatred.

I re-iterate that MS is a serious scripture that should not be handled by politicians and journalists.

English apparently played this trick upon us. But they will face the same when the similar apparent hatred filled verses in their scripture are brought to notice by the immature readers.


Based on all these, saying the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism is, IMO, callously mild.
All this humiliation is for Shudra who are part of the Varna system
Gandhi said untouchability is a blot on Hinduism. Some 60 years later Manmohan Singh says untouchability is a blot on humanity. Those who want to say untouchability is not in the Varna system are only obfuscating.


Why do you remain obfuscating? Gandhi said "Untouchabilty is a blot". Did he say that varNa is a blot?

You can say that bombing of Hiroshima is blot. Can you say that General Theory of Relativity is a blot?

Based on what I have read, I would say that your ideas are blot on pure consciousness. Does it hurt to hear that?


Some people say this is not the fault of the Varna system, Brahmanas are not involved; it is all political and economic. Why then are the conflicts falling along caste lines? A poor upper caste may find his lot not very different from that of a poor Dalit, but he will still side with the rich of his own caste. There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty.

No one is at fault since everyone is tied to a rotating lattoo (top). To point finger at anyone is the fault and ignorance. The Guna actions and reactions are in the root nature of Prakriti. This has been like this and will be like this.

Who know the Self, know that the world itself is a modification of the Mind, which is the organ of the Self. But that is a long call. I will just say that it is ignorance to point finger at any one or at any group.


Another defense some offer is that people don’t follow the Varna system as intended. If only they did, everything will be perfect.

Nothing will be perfect if one is not perfect. Do you calim that you are perfect? (I am not).



Some defend the Varna system from purely religious doctrinal grounds such as Advaitam. They say, in the ultimate, difference is unreal and so on. Those who find such doctrinal defense perfectly legitimate,

Advaitins try to defend, successfully or unsuccessfully, when a tenet of theirs is ridiculed. Advaita does not ridicule but teaches that Dvaita is valid, under all circumstances but in Paramarthika.


Of course non-Christians reject this out of hand, and rightly so. Christians may believe anything they want, that is fine, but no reasonable person will hesitate to say these are hideous. Many reasonable Christians themselves are properly embarrassed by all this and reject these with equal emphasis. Recently, one of the Christian members of HDF suggested that Christians must focus on the Sermon of the Mount, and not on the theology of resurrection.

Has any Christian or Muslim answered why the non-believers should be butchered, as taught in Bible and Koran? Kindly go and ask them.

Actually, for Hinduism, bankrupt ideas of yours are blots. You have no deep understanding of anything. Your ideas are not better than some ideas that we see to be continually criticising the Bible or Koran. But I admit that you have practiced an alloofness, appropriate for the internet.

I think, that scriptural understanding does not come by reading literal tralnslations with a biased mind. Kindly pay heed to this, if to nothing else.



blah blah blah


Blah Blah Blah


There is intellectual basis for getting rid of this Varna system. From what I have heard, Vishnu Purana and Srimat Bhagavatam say in Kali Yuga everything will be topsy turvy and nobody will follow the prescribed dharma. So, the establishment can say the Varna system is not applicable for the present times and embrace a more open and inclusive theology, somewhat like that of Sri Vaishnavam of Azhvars, or Saivam of Nayamanars and Lingayath of Karnataka. Some have already done this, like Arya Samaj. But unfortunately, they still pay homage to Manu and cling to the same terminologies like Varna. There must be a clean break.

Again dear Nara. Your logic seems like saying: discard teaching of General Theory of Relativity, since Americans bombed Japan.

Why do you wish to bar knowledge? Are you not guilty of a greater dicatorship?

My father used to say: A goat's head does not fall as per his wish. Let the world be. Let us acquire the right knowledge to win over.

To start with there is nothing but Brahmana -- which is Lord's pure speech called agni. That speech may remain pure or degrade when associated with impurities. The call of scripture to annhilate the little thoughts (and consequent littleness of speech) is for everyone and is not directed against any single class or any single person.

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
05 April 2010, 01:52 AM
Dear all,

In my most humble opinion :

After Nara's arrival, we are discussing issues which are, imho, most useless from spirituality point of view and also for doing anything good to Hindu Dharma or India. Moreover, the discussions are becoming just like listening to some monologue because the other party is so sure of its infallibility that all logic and documentary proofs fail. The crocodile tears which are being shed in Kilo litres here cannot improve the lot of so-called dalits or anyone in India. These people are not even aware what the real situation is today in India. They have some misguided information and they are proud of it.

For those who are not Indians by birth, I would like to say :

a) The so-called messiah of the downtrodden have only created the worst possible vote bank politics in India. May be, Nara is thinking to join Indian politics & for that he is making his doing his ground-work ... but I am not sure.
b) The atrocities most of the times are from the so-called backward communities which have always been militant and powerful in the social structure.
c) The reservation policy has hit the so-called upper caste poor people badly & it is very difficult for them to get admission in good colleges or to get a good government job.
d) On the other hand, it has not much improved of the lot of the needy people. I have not seen many people in my life who really needed reservation of this sort are helped by this policy. This is because it has created a strong shield of affluent "dalits" who don't allow the benefits of reservations to reach the really needy people. It is all being grabbed by a handful of families who are already at much higher level in socio-economic structure.
e) The citing of examples of non-entry to harijans into certain temples is result of feudal mentality of powerful group who manage the particular temple ... and it is not a common phenomena in India.
f) I fail to understand how a downtrodden Brahmin is different from a downtrodden harijan ? But on that basis, the discrimination today has attained alarming proportions in Government recruitment & promotional policies. On one hand, a poor brahmin is unable to get promotion for decades in spite of getting 75 % marks in selection process & on the other hand there have been instances when people have been promoted on caste basis by just getting even less than 10 % marks ... using "Best among the failure criteria".
g) This is not only limited to jobs but also in highly technical fields like Engineering and Medical Colleges where selection for candidates belonging to these castes are being done on ridiculously low scores in competitive exams. God only knows what sort of technical experts these candidates would make. Recently IITs had to send back some SC/ST candidates due to their regular failure to pass exams
h) The situation has become so much discriminative that a son of a upper caste man who earns hardly Rs. 2000 per month won't get any facility from the government but a son of a lower caste (BC) man earning more than Rs. 40,000 a month would get all facilities just because of the merit of his birth ! There is no such limit for an SC or ST.

i) If you have a SC/ST person working under you, you have to be really very careful if his performance is not up to the mark & you want to do something to improve him .... his one complaint filed against you under SC/ST act can put you in deep trouble. I have seen this act being misused quite often by interested people.

It is not as simple as Nara is trying to project here. It is a very complicated and highly sensitive issue.

I find Nara's way of "discussing" highly amusing .... very intelligent way indeed ! You declare yourself an atheist and your impartiality can't be questioned ! All others can always be called biased as they follow one religious philosophy or the other ! So, it gives you complete immunity towards being labelled as biased. As you have rejected all those philosophies which many great fellows ... you can project yourself greater than them ... you have the guts to speak against those stalwarts ! Take up some controversial religious issue and keep on the side other than the side taken by the majority ... you immediately come to limelight. Normally these techniques are used by people desperately seeking attention. I can' say if Nara has similar motive in mind by raking up only the controversial issues and attacking everything the majority of Hindus consider sacred. But he has proved that he has hard boiled ideas which he is not ready to change in spite of any quantity of logic supplied to the contrary. He has also no humility to accept his grave mistake when he made sweeping remarks against all upper caste people. I am sure, he might not have travelled even 20 % part of India and known the ground realities himself.

My best wishes to all those who feel that one day, they will be able to make Nara see reason. I have no such illusion.

And so, "with a heavy heart" .... I quit this thread here & now !

OM

upsydownyupsy mv ss
05 April 2010, 03:24 AM
Dear sir Nara, I post a single simple question..... Are you saying that Varna system(not the caste system) is wrong? Is that your viewpoint? Can you please tell me sir. I desire to know this.

MahaHrada
05 April 2010, 05:50 AM
You are of course right, not all Hindu sampradaya are equally rigid about Varna system. I appreciate the excerpt you have cited from Abhinavaguptapada. All along the religious history there have been many attempts to reform the system, some of which you cite.


I have not yet noticed any criticism or attempt to reform the varna/jati system in any Hindu sampradaya, that was not my subject. I must add that I am not willing to discuss the whole complex issue of jati/varna as such in this thread. All i want is to remind that there is a historical dimension that cannot be ignored, and that we find discriminative remarks especially within a section of the Smarta sampradaya approximately after the 8th century ce. in the Smritis and commentaries to the Vedas.

So i am only focussing on whether hinduism as a whole including its historical dimension and all its traditions, not only the sanskritised, but also the oral and vernacular can be said to be discriminative on the basis of jati.

Picking quotes only from the Smriti will produce a biased view and not depict the attitude towards varna or jati in hinduism sufficently.

I hope we can agree on that and maybe arrive at a less extremist depiction of hindu philosophy.


More recently, there is the case of Arya Samaj. They also tried to reform the Varnashrama Dharma. But, all these attempts finally petered out with nothing much to show for. The reason is the very nature of Varna. It just cannot be practiced without it degenerating into a birth-based discriminatory caste system for the reasons I outlined in my response to


I do not agree that the prevalent attitude in Hindu philosophy was overtly discriminative not even all followers of the Smriti are focussed on supremacism, much less others. I do not discuss the situation in society past or present, i am not willing or able to either defend or malign a societal model, i see no reason in this, as i wrote before, i only comment on the relation of Hindu darshanas to caste supremacism. I am not talking about upper caste supremacism, since in my experience supremacism is existing between all jatis and i have as yet no reason to suppose that this was any different in the past.

If the reason for a discriminatory society is the varna based model, than following the same logic the genocide of the american Indians, the persecution and progroms and finally the holocaust of the Jews in Nazi germany, and the genocide of the Armenians by the Turkish, the persecution of the Romani, the near extinction of all belivers in other religion than islam in muslim countries, the genocide of south american Indios, slaughter of heretics, pagans and jews by the egalitarian Christian religion, the extinction and suppression of millions of critics of communism in the gulags of the former Sowjet union and the imprisonment and execution of critics and the murder of indigenous tribes and people of other cultures, like the Tibetan, in China, this kind of murder of tribal people happens and has happened also in Bangladesh and Pakistan or Afghanistan Iran and other muslim countries, the murder and near extiction of the followers of the pre-buddhist Bon religion by the buddhist missionaries in ancient Tibet all this and more violence is and has been caused in the past by the very nature of the varieties of egalitarian societies and religions on this planet. The dead cannot complain and raise their voice. Thats why every citizen or beliver likes his egalitarian society or religion, those who dislike it or do not fit in, or cannot compete are either already murdered long ago, will die soon, or suffer in ghettos or are imprisonend.

I wrote before http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=42341&postcount=122

My point is i doubt that the real important question is whether an egalitarian, uniform and therefore authoritarian society, is better than one based on diversity, freedom of individual expression of diverse communities, and specialization, but it is rather more important to discuss how to eliminate the cause of discrimination, supremacism, misuse of power, greed and other defects.

This following excerpt analyses a typical pitfall of egalitarian ideologies and societal or religious models, it is about the history of the USA, according to the author egalitarian ideals have been instrumental for the suppression of the dark skinned by the white by externalising differences.
Unlike this a non egalitarian society has the ability to internalise accept and accomodate diversity and try to solve conflicts within the society, while at the same time it can reduce the danger of misuse of centralistic power and autocracy by keeping control over the military (kshatriya) monetary (vaishya) and knowledge resources (brahmin) in separete hands. All communities have to cooperate to enshure prosperity, in the case of a jati / varna societal model.

There is only one logically satisfying solution to the problem of the inversion of conscious American values: between 1650 and 1776, the a priori metaphysical certainty of human difference fixes itself progressively on the non-European populations, on the Indians and the Blacks [author’s emphasis]. This fixation on the Indian or Black difference facilitates the effacing of the difference between white Englishmen and the birth of a partial egalitarian ideology. One may speak of a process of externalizing difference. This solution is, truly speaking, suggested by the Declaration of Independence itself, which, after having affirmed the equality of men, defines the Indians as “merciless savages”, implicitly considering the notions of White and Man as interchangeable.
Emmanuel Todd, The Fate of Immigrants: Assimilation and segregation in the Western democracies

isavasya
05 April 2010, 06:27 AM
Isavasya, let me be clear, I am not taking anything back, the only thing I regret is allowing an opening for a frontal attack on a triviality while the main points remain unanswered. A lot of people in HDF routinely attack me in a personal way, and you are one of them. Therefore, I am not inetersed in having a discussion with you. Sorry!


Ooo so sulky Mr.nara!. So you throw your diatribe on Hindu religion, make extremist intolerant comments on millions of people, all of whom according to you detest others and next try to get away saying you didnt meant all, when caught you put a apology , but when answered you coy away to reply back. This is a Hindu community, you are a proclaimed non-hindu, you made slanderous charges on hinduism.I refute your theory, you get away. I have not joined this community to hear and read charges and insults of My dharm by a non-hindu. You either reply or you are considered incapable of doing so. Regarding personal attack, you can take your accusations to administrator and so can others. Do not be a judge unless you consider it your eternal right to behave like this in forums of people who dont share your idea. By the way i developed a routine in 2 days!! amazing !!! --::))


Dear all,

In my most humble opinion :

After Nara's arrival, we are discussing issues which are, imho, most useless from spirituality point of view and also for doing anything good to Hindu Dharma or India. Moreover, the discussions are becoming just like listening to some monologue because the other party is so sure of its infallibility that all logic and documentary proofs fail. The crocodile tears which are being shed in Kilo litres here cannot improve the lot of so-called dalits or anyone in India. These people are not even aware what the real situation is today in India. They have some misguided information and they are proud of it.


Dear devotee ji,

Sure Some people who havent got a single clue of Indian society seem to form a particular opinion ,most of the times shamelessly vulgour as accusing whole community of promoting hate and dislike for others. and of course they are proud of it.

saidevo
05 April 2010, 09:22 AM
namaste Devotee.

I don't think that anyone here feels that Nara would change his stand (or stand his change if it comes to that) from his position of avowed atheism and ways of reasoning solely within the domain of physical science. We are refuting his points only to set the record straight and put things in the proper perspective for us Hindus here and the Hindu readers outside this public forum.

You have nicely summed up the situation obtaining today in India, as regards Nara's supposed oppression of Dalits in the hands of brahmins even in these days, when vested interests in India have firmly yoked the Dalits to their selfish means and ends.

If we don't discuss this real situation

and instead subscribe to the propaganda that the Dalits are really serious to learn Sanskrit, study and recite the Vedas and take up Agamic practices to become priests and that only brahmins are dead against their efforts and choke the channels open to them,

we will only be playing a hide and seek game.

As to the question that the Dalits are not admitted to the Veda PAThashAlas run by brahmins, my question is why should they be? The Veda PAThashAlas are not a public institutions, and there are in fact more number of non-brahmin Hindu religious institutions in Tamilnadu and other states, so, if they are serious about Dalits learning Sanskrit and Vedas, why don't they take the initiative to establish their own Veda PAThashAlas, appointing brahmin teachers initially? There are some non-brahmin Hindu institutions who run such schools, such as those by the Arya SamAjam, and why don't the Dalits join those schools?

Thus, it is only propaganda against brahmins by the Dravidian parties and other vested interests born out of hatred fostered by their leader EV Ramasamy, to keep the Dalits in the dark about their real situation about who is actually harassing them. The aim of these people is to destroy Hinduism, divide the country to get the ruling power and amass wealth for their own families.

It's aweful that a learned man like Nara who is a brahmin and has a soft corner for VaiShNavism, blindly subscribes to such propaganda and tries to justify it.

Nara
05 April 2010, 12:13 PM
Dear MahaHrada, Greetings!


...Picking quotes only from the Smriti will produce a biased view and not depict the attitude towards varna or jati in hinduism sufficently.

I hope we can agree on that and maybe arrive at a less extremist depiction of hindu philosophy.

My points were made only with respect to the Varna system. I have not criticized the Hindu philosophical system in general. If you think I did, please point it out to me so that I can correct myself.


You have provided the most powerful argument yet in favor of a varna system:

Unlike this a non egalitarian society has the ability to internalise accept and accomodate diversity and try to solve conflicts within the society, while at the same time it can reduce the danger of misuse of centralistic power and autocracy by keeping control over the military (kshatriya) monetary (vaishya) and knowledge resources (brahmin) in separete hands. All communities have to cooperate to enshure prosperity, in the case of a jati / varna societal model.
Whatever system by which we organize society, the ultimate objective, IMO, is maximizing the overall happiness quotient, a sort of utilitarian view. Of course, certain basic minimum standards of liberty, justice, economic opportunities, etc., must be guaranteed for all.

Whether to centralize authority or not is a tactical question. I fully agree, concentration of power is unlikely to move a society towards the ultimate objective in the long run. Like you say, the Varna model you have outlined does lessen the likelihood of unitary center of concentrated power and the attendant misuse of it. But, it creates other problems that set the society back in many ways. When top two Varnas cooperated, they benefited immensely at the expense those at the bottom of the caste structure. When they were at loggerheads, the entire society paid the price, nobody benefited. So, the ones at the bottom, and the ones outside the Varna system always ended up suffering. This problem may exist in other models also, but that is not a reason for not recognizing it in this model and doing something about it.

I am not arguing for perfect equality of outcomes -- I do not believe that is a morally sustainable objective in theory, much less in practice. But there cannot be any argument among reasonable people that equality of conditions and opportunities is a better way of achieving the ultimate goal of a happy society with liberty and justice for all.

In this respect, the American society offers a model worth considering. I am not saying American society is perfect, far from it. Election of Obama notwithstanding, racism runs deep in this society. Obama polled about 13% of white vote in some of the states of the deep south, about half of what Kerry got 4 years ago. But, openly racist practices by both private and public institutions are illegal. While individuals are free to express their racism in any way they want to, nobody except some kooks do so because it is a discredited idea. In other words, there are no apologists for racism outside of some extreme groups. Further, there is a strong progressive movement represented by all sections of the society including many whites.

In India, caste is very much an accepted part of social discourse. People feel proud of their caste identity. Political parties are organized on the basis of caste. People vote along caste lines. Even openly discriminatory behavior by some of the elites of the civil society causes no concern to even the intelligentsia. Caste has morphed into something like ethnicity. This is a dangerous trend IMO.

My thesis is, the caste system is an inevitable consequence of Varna system. Whether the intent was good or not, we have a Frankenstein now. For Frankenstein to die, Victor has to die.

Cheers!

saidevo
05 April 2010, 12:26 PM
The brAhmaNas and the Dalits - 2
Harijana AiyangAr

During the time of independence struggle, Gandhiji made an appeal that in order to remove untouchability, every Hindu should adopt a boy from a harijan family, rear him and make him progress in life. Several thousand Hindus listened to this appeal and rearer the harijan children. One among them was P.S.KriShNasvAmi AiyangAr. The harijan boy reared him later become a big government official; his name, MAnAmadurai K.Sambandham. 'Harijana AyyangAr' is a book Sambandham wrote on his foster parent.

MahAkavi BhArati dedicated his book 'ARil oru pangu--One-sixth of share of it', to the farmers, paLLar, paraiyahs, cobblers and such other parishuddha--very pure, VaiShya brothers. Sambandham dedicated his book to this great poet.

He describes in this book that his foster parent PSK aiyangAr lived a life of 94 years, dedicating it to the principles of GAndhIyam. His wife RukmiNI ammAL was a very pious woman. PSK aiyangAr was a practising lawyer in the MAnAmadurai district munsif court. He involved himself in the struggle for independence and went to jail for two years.

PSK selected a harijan boy from the American Mission school run by the Christian priests in MAnAmadurai, obtained the consent of the boy's father to rear the boy as a Hindu, and got the boy admitted to the fifth grade, in a school run by Okkur VeLLaiyan CheTTiAr where the majority of students were brahmins, thus setting a precedent. The boy was proficient in Tamil, obtained the first rank, and thus was seated in the first row as the first member in the class, which was again the first of its kind. PSK made the boy come home from school passing through the brahmin's agrahAram--street, and the initial opposition gradully gave way to the power of reasoning. PSK also slowly changed the mind of his orthodox wife into accepting the boy as hers.

PSK taught the boy Sambandham how to wear the dhoti, how to wear the vibhUti and such other religious things. He made the boy sing BhArati's songs, wear khAdi--handloom clothes, and taught him cotton spinning using a spindle. Whenever he took the boy with him to Madurai on works related to his profession, the people used to refer to the boy as 'aiyangAr paiyan'. He visited the harijan settlements, and moved with them freely.

As part of his religious and dharmic training of the boy, PSK obtained five promises from him: 1. Never to touch liquor; 2. Never to change his religion under any circumstance; 3. Always to wear handloom clothes; 4. Never to take bribe; 5. Always involve his life in activities that would be fruitful for the people. These promises helped Sambandham to make him a honest and upright government official later.

Following AyyangAr's example, other upper caste Hindus in MAnAmadurai took up welfare initiatives for the harijans in their area.

Can we see at least one example of a politician who has such vociferous hatred for the minority brahmin community and sheds crocodile tears for the Dalits, take up and rear a harijan boy or girl and spend their own wealth for their welfare?

*****

• Another progressive brAhmaNa who took up the cause of the harijans was the famous author Kalki (Kal.KRShNamUrti). His novel 'ThyAga bhUmi' crusaded against the untouchability practise and created a storm when published in the 'Ananda Vikatan' magazine and later made into a film. The English government, to quell the protests, banned the film, which was relased only after Indian attained independence.

‣ The author of the book and movie script of 'ThyAga bhUmi' was Kalki, a brahmin;
‣ The director SubrahmaNyam, who took the risk to bring out the film was a brahmin;
‣ The playback singer D.K.PaTTammAL was a brahmin;
‣ The main role Shambhu ShAstri in the film was played by PApAnAsham Shivan, a brahmin.

• Gandhiji started Harijana Seva Sanghams--Harijan Welfare Associations, in every district of the country. Several active participants and office bearers of these Associations were brahmins. One among them in Tamilnadu was K.R.KaLyANarAma aiyar who was in-charge of the Deenabandhu Ashram. Under his administratration, the Deenabandhu Ashram won the appreciation of VIPs such as RAjAji, KAmarAj, P.RAmamUrti (the Communist Party leader), P.JIvAnandam, M.S.SubbhalakShmI, actor M.R.RAdhA and many others.

The DK party leader E.V.Ramasamy was surprised at the teaching methods and the students' discipline at the Ashram and willingly gave it a donation of ONE RUPEE, which was kept as a memorial.

• Tamilnadu has not seen a 100% political leader and minister after P.Kakkan, who was a Dalit leader and freedom fighter and served the country in various ministerial posts in the Congress government in the erstwhile Madras state between 1957 and 1967 and also as a member of parliament. His teacher was VaidhyanAtha aiyar who shaped him to honest public life. VaidhyanAtha aiyar was another active member of the Harijan Seva Sangham and contributed monetarily to its activities. VaidhyanAtha aiyar was also famous for his initiative in taking the harijans inside Madurai MInAkShiamman temple on July 8, 1939, much against opposition from orthodox brahmins, upper castes and even the Justice Party, who was the ruling party in the state but did not seek to remove the law against untouchables entering temples. The Tamilnadu Harijana Seva Sangham published in May 1991, a biography of VaidhyanAtha aiyar, titled 'Harijana thandhai--father of the harijans'.

• Dr.V.SvAminAtha ShAstri When the Congress conference was held in Trichy in the year 1961, a pandal was prepared to accommodate one lakh people. KAmarAj was asked as to select a name for the Pandal. Without any hesitation he said, "Name it after SvAminAtha ShAstrigaL, a real Gandhian. People have forgotten him."

Dr.V.SvAminAtha ShAstri took his graduation in medicine from the Madras Medical College, where Dr.LakShmaNasAmi MudaliAr was his classmate. Dr.ShAstri started his medical practice in Trichy, went to the Dalit settlements and gave them free medical service. Orthodox uppercaste people sought to ostracise him, but that did not deter him. In appreciation of his work for harijan welfare, Dr.RAjendra PrasAd gifted him a golden spindle and medal. Later when Dr.ShAstri went to jail participating in the freedom struggle, he extended his medical help to the people in jail.

• GopAlakRShNa Gokale, a MarAti brahmin, whom Gandhiji appreciated as his political guru, in the year 1905 startted the 'Servants of India Society' for the welfare of the tribals in India. A well-known exponent of the Society, S.R.VenkaTarAman was a brahmin. He started the Takkar BAbA Gurukulam in NIrkAshi, UTakamaNDalam, Tamilnadu, for the ToDa tribals; SillakkUr Silvindia school for the YenAdi tribals; DevadAr school for the tribals Pania and KATTunAyaka who live in the KozhikODu, Malappura areas of Kerala. He also wrote a book on the tribals in India.

• A list of 42 brahmins who were actively involved in the efforts of harijan welfare in Tamilnadu and mentioned with brief details of their work by Sambandham in his book are:

‣ K.V.SubbhA Rao, a friend of RAjAji;
‣ Dr.TSS.RAjan; Lawyer LN.GopAlsAmi aiyar of LAlguDi;
‣ LN.GopAlsAmi aiyar, lawyer and social worker;
‣ V.BhAShyam aiyangAr, Madras High Court Judge;
‣ KalliDaikkurichi Yajnesvara Sarma, who changed the Ashram established by VVS aiyar into a harijan hostel;
‣ KalliDaikkurichi Sankara aiyar, social worker;
‣ KalliDaikkurichi LakShmi Sankara aiyar;
‣ G.MahAdevan, son of political tyAgi Gomati Sankara DIkShitar, and wardon of a harijan hostel;
‣ DevakOTTai M.MukundarAja aiyangar, lawyer;
‣ S.RAjan aiyangar, a government official;
‣ MAnAmadurai N.RAmasAmi aiyar, a friend of PS KRShNasvAmi aiyangAr;
‣ DevakOTTai RangasAmi aiyangAr known as 'Harijan RangaNNA';
‣ Madurai N.SrInivAsa Varada aiyangAr, a friend of poet BhArati and his wife ‣ PadmAsinI AmmAL;
‣ V.SAranAtha aiyangAr, former principal of National College, Trichy, who admitted the maximum possible number of harijan students to his college;
‣ Dr.R.KALamegham aiyar, extended free medical help to harijan students;
‣ LAlguDi TS.AnanthanArAyana aiyar, a social worker for harijan welfare;
‣ MAyanUr KG.SivasAmi aiyar, who started a polytechic for harijan students;
‣ MAyanUr SAmbaShiva aiyar, warden of the harijan hostel;
‣ PerambalUr school teacher Narasingha aiyangar;
‣ Anbil RAjagopAla aiyangar, an engineer, who gave free land to harijan hostel;
‣ Trichy Dr.RAmachandra aiyar, who established scholarships for harijan students;

‣ J.NatarAja aiyar, an employee of the Cooperative Bank, who collected rice and conducted a samapankti bhojanam for harijans every year on the day of Gandhi Jayanti;

‣ ThanjAvUr VV.SaTagopAchAryar, social worker;
‣ MannArguDi Dr.PV.MuthukRShNa aiyar, social worker and crusader for harijan welfare;

‣ ThanjAvUr V.PUvarAga aiyangAr, lawyer;
‣ KumbakONam Dr.MK.SAmbashiva aiyar, social worker and father of the famous agricultural scientist of India, Dr.M.S.SvAminAthan;

‣ South Arcot NArAyaNa aiyar, an engineer, who dug wells in the South Arcot village in harijan settlements;

‣ ChinnasAlem K.VenkaTesa aiyar, social worker;
‣ Dr.PS.SrInivAsan, a popular medical doctor in KAnchipuram, who established a polytechnic for harijan students in Chengalput;

‣ KAnchi Dr.PS.RaghurAman, social worker;
‣ VelUr N.Somasundaram aiyar, popular lawyer and chairman of Vellore Municipality;

‣ SAlem VAnchinAtha aiyar, who gave up his government service, lived with the harijans in their settlements and worked for their welfare;

‣ TiruchencoDu ThyAgarAja aiyar, social worker;
‣ NAmakkal A.RangAchAri, lawyer and social worker;
‣ Kottagiri G.MahAdeva aiyar, social worker;
‣ Chennai Changu S.Ganesan, who established a polytechnic for harijan students;
‣ PN.SankaranArAyaNa aiyar, who established the Gokulam harijan colony;
‣ Coimbatore K.SubrahmaNyan, a deshabhakta and social worker;
‣ GopicheTTipALayam ShrIkaNTha aiyar, who gave water to harijans from the agrahAram wells;
‣ GopicheTTipALayam V.RAma aiyangAr, who dug wells for the harijan people;
‣ TiruvArUr Dr.VV.NAganAtha aiyar, who created awakening among the harijans;

*****

• Dr.B.R.Ambedkar is adored as the god of Dalits all over India. What many people do not know is that there were three brahmins who played a key role in his life. They were:

‣ His school teacher BhImA Rao, whose name AmbedkAr added as a prefix to his name;

‣ KRShNAji Arjun Keluskar, who read and appreciated AmbedkAr's books, introduced him to the Baroda King SAyAji Rao GaekvAd, which was a timely help for the young crusader against untouchability;

‣ Dr.ShArada who treated him in a Mumbai hospital. AmbedkAr took this woman as his second wife, after his first wife RamAbAi died young.

*****

The main objective of this post is to refute Nara's baseless allegation that it was brahmins who harassed the Dalits and that they did not take enough initiatives for the welfare of the harijans. The source of information in this post and my earlier post on the brahmins and dalits is the Tamil book 'Dalits and Brahmins' authored by the senior journalist K.C.LakShminArAyaNan.

Nara
05 April 2010, 01:43 PM
The brAhmaNas and the Dalits - 2
Harijana AiyangAr…

Since this post from Saidevo is free of any comments about me as a person I shall respond to this one.

The question in my mind was never about a few people who were willing to help a few Dalits. I have myself cited examples of these. The Acharya of Bhagavat Ramanuja took it upon himself to perform the last rites of a Dalit disciple of his acharya Alavandhar and for this act was ostracized by his Brahmin community. In fact the Sri Vaishnavas 1000 years ago went after a systemic solution but their efforts failed.

The efforts of such luminaries as Mahakavi Bharathi, who by the way had some really blistering things to say about Brahmins -- my critique in comparison is a bed of roses -- were mostly isolated and simply ignored by the majority of the Brahmins. Even Saidevo’s own accounts show the opposition some of these efforts faced. One instance in particular is instructive of the extent to which even these progressive Brahmins with a conscience, but not ready to give up their Brahmin identity, were ready to go. In the Gurukulam style school in Tirunelveli district, funded by Tamilnadu Congress and run by an ardent freedom fighter and congressman, one V.V.S. Iyer, the boys were segregated between Brahmins and Non-Brahmins. In 1925, when some NB's like EVR objected, V.V.S. Iyer opted to close the school rather than disallow this practice of segregation.

My criticism is about the Varna system that produced these unfortunate millions that need this kind of help from the upper caste. Individual cases of charity can never be an answer to a systemic problem like Varna. The personal examples of these remarkable individuals were quickly forgotten, much like the efforts of Sri Vaishnavas 1000 years ago.

All the same, if you ask any Dalit what they want most, the first thing they want is self-respect. Self-respect is something no one can give, it is asserted, and when they do assert it, they have found violent retribution time and again, our newspapers regularly report such incidences all the time.

This system is a blot on Hinduism. The sooner it removed and washed clean, the better.

TatTvamAsi
05 April 2010, 07:33 PM
Nara,

Let's go through your inordinately verbose obfuscation on Varna masquerading as "discussions" one by one:


Greetings my fellow humans!

Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?

Why make a blanket statement as if it were sacrosanct? Perhaps you could have the humility in saying, "It is my belief/understanding/contention that...."



In this presentation I will be using the terms Jati and Varna interchangeably. Many will undoubtedly object. We have already gone over this in a different thread. The fact of the matter is, the Brahmin orthodoxy, from whom the legitimacy of Varna system is derived, holds these two concepts, i.e., Jati and Varna, as closely related, and in common parlance it is alright to use the two terms interchangeably. In support of this I present the following from the web site of Kanchi Kamakoti Matam (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap1.htm):
“There are four varnas - Brahmin, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. We identify "varnas" with "jatis". In point of fact, varna and jati are not the same. The varnas are only the four mentioned above, that is Brahmins, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. Within each there are many jatis. Among Brahmins there are Ayyars, Ayyangars, Raos, and so on. In the fourth varna there are Mudaliars, Pillais, Reddis, Naikkars, Nayudus, Gaundars, Padayacis.“

“In common parlance jati is used for varna. I am also using the two as interchangeable terms. “
Sri Vaishnavas also follow the above definition, and I suspect of Madwas do as well. Further, this is how Varna is commonly understood. In the common consciousness of Hindu society, Jati and Varna have remained synonymous. If a claim is made that a nuanced understanding of the texts is needed to really appreciate that Varna has nothing to do with birth, only Jati does, then one might ask how a common man can be expected to see this nuance when even great Acharyas like Adi Shanaka and Bhagavat Ramanuja did not?

In addition, for the common man in day-to-day life, two things are clear from experience, (i) you are born into a Jati and (ii) this Jati system is hierarchical with the Brahmanas sitting at the top. So, for the enlightened and the uninitiated alike, in the fine points of scripture for the former and daily life for the later, Varna and Jati mean either about the same thing or the same thing. Those who still insist that only Jati is birth based and Varna is not, fall outside the mainstream view. So, for the purpose of this discussion, I will follow the Kanchi Kamakoti Matam’s definition under which (i) Jati is simply a further sub-division of varna, and (ii) in common parlance, Varna and Jati may be used interchangeably.

I am in complete agreement with what you say here; Varna is indeed based on birth, guna, and karma. None precludes the other; and thus all are equally important.



From Vedas, Smrithees, and Ithihasa prunas, we are told the Lord made the four Varnas according to gunas and actions; as a function of accumulated papa and punya, people are born into one of these Varnas; these births are infused with a mix of three gunas with one of the three predominating, for example Satva for Brahmins, etc.; just birth is not sufficient, but one must fulfill the prescribed duties to truly belong to a Varna. Of the four Varnas, only Shudra is once born and because of this he is forbidden from studying Shruti. His source of knowledge is only Ithihasa puranas. Shanakara and Ramanuja cite Manu 10.4 to establish this. They also cites Taittria Samhita 7.1.1.6, which says Shudra are not permitted to perform yagnas, to prove that Shudras are not permitted to study the Vedas.

Again, I'm in agreement with you here; sUdrAs are discouraged from studying the Vedas. What happens to all the mlecchas who try to read the Vedas? Or worse, who claim to be "Hindu scholars" like that fat jew wendy doniger? Where is the molten lead and cane when you need it? tsk tsk... :D



Why is this objectionable, say some, by claiming that these are just duties, not privileges? A heavy load of stringent duties are prescribed to Brahmanas, and papa will result if these prescribed duties are abandoned. Whereas, there are no ritual duties for Shudras and therefore Shudras are not subject to sins that result from abandonment of ritual duties.

This is absolutely right as well. Again, an analogy is the amount of due diligence a scientist needs to do before publishing a paper is absent for a janitor who needs to swing his mop a few times here and there while having a cigarette or calling his mother. The responsibility varies with profession; and profession is determined by education, aptitude, and to a large extent, the environment/background in which the person grows up in. The only difference in Vedic study being the proclivity is also determined by birth/lineage, which you fully support and provided evidence for as well.

Thus, why can't a janitor publish a scientific paper on dark matter? Who's stopping him? He can afford $1.50 at the public library to use the computer to write his paper. Why won't it get published in prestigious scientific journals around the world? Wait. You mean, scientists won't accept his work because of what he does? Oh my! Discrimination! Racists! Fascists! Nazis! Saffron brigade! Oh wait, most of these so-called scientists are mlecchas.



Yes, all this cannot be objected to, if this is a voluntary system and there is no force. Any group of people can believe in anything they want and subject themselves to any austerities they like. However, this system does not offer any choice. A child born in this society is automatically placed and locked into a Varna for life. If the child does not like this system after growing up, he/she is not even allowed to abandon it. Shudras are threatened with severe punishment if the injections are not followed. The punishments meted out to Shambuka and Ekalaiva are just two examples of this. Even if these are just stories, they served as powerful warnings to Shudras, look what can happen if you try to challenge the system.

This is where you're getting ahead of yourself. First and foremost, this issue only arises when the said "disciple", a sUdrA or even worse, a mleccha, wants to be accepted as a siSyA for Vedic study. Nobody prevents sUdrAs from pursuing various worldly pursuits; business, economics, politics, entertainment etc. etc. Ever heard of Shiv Nadar? ;) Multi-billionaire too! Wonder what he thinks of Brahmins? :D

Secondly, what is the ratio, or even, the raw number of students who want to learn the Vedas sUdrA or worse? It is not like they are breaking down the doors to be allowed to learn the Veda and chant the Gayatri! At the end of the day, even for us so-called Brahmins, it is about the Benjamins, or, should I say Gandhis (on the legal tender). In modern times, why, even in ancient times, learning the Vedas was a sure way to be broke; and that is what most Brahmins were; haplessly poor (materially speaking). Under the patronage of rich Kshatriyas and Vaisyas, some acquired wealth which was passed down through the generations. However, we definitely know that studying the Veda and making a lot of money are inversely proportional; as it should be. And please, don't quote me some exception of a fake swami who drove Rolls Royces because he was able to "sell" jnana to the idiotic mlecchas in the west.



If the Varna system promises a cushy life for Shudras, would they not be happy to stay in that station and never try to free themselves from Shudrahood? Why then take the trouble of warning them of severe consequences if they transgress? Gautama Smrithi says Shudra are like cemetery and warns that the ears of a Shudra who hear the chanting of Vedas must be filled with molten lead. If he dares reciting Vedas his tongue is to be slit and his body is to be cut. What is the point of such harshness?


And the sUdrAs should be satisfied with their sVAdharmA and remain in their varna. Who is asking them to change it? Mlecchas? And about the exact punishments meted out to these 'transgressors', can you give us a SINGLE case in which this has actually happened? Any proof that this kind of punishment was carried out? In that sense, you have to give some credit to the pedophile worshipers (musLAMES). At least they follow through with their teachings (stoning whores etc.).



But, what is very disheartening is the fact that both Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite the above injunctions to establish that Vedas should not be taught to Shudra. The practice of keeping out Shudra from Vedic study is followed even in these modern times. No Veda Pathashala run by Brahmnical institutions will accept a Shudra child in their midst.

The sUdrA was not permitted to study the Vedas to maintain dharma; if everyone drops their duty and pursues their whims, the society will be in shambles; as can be seen in modern society.

Regarding "no Veda Pathashala" accepting sUdrAs, why won't the Institute of Advanced Study at Princeton accept a janitor from Taco Bell to work with Witten on String Theory? He's human too! What's the reason?



Some argue that Varnashrama darma is a means by which one purifies one’s soul, a prerequisite for moksha. They further assert that there is no gradation in Varna, all duties are to be performed as Bhagavat Aradanam. The job of a priest is not superior to that of a toilet cleaner. Again, all this is fine if these are voluntary. If you willingly and voluntarily and in full knowledge, believe in this doctrine, then no one has the right to take this experience away from you. But this Varna system is not based on consent. It is imposed on people at the time of birth. People of “low” birth are kept illiterate so that they never would know any better.

Are you serious? People of low birth are kept illiterate? Nara, I think you have had one too many hits on the head from pseudo-secularist scum like Arundhati Roy.

Name one non-Vedic institution that keeps sUdrAs from enrolling due to their birth! This issue only arises for Vedic study as it is a spiritual science for which purity, self-discipline, and initiation are needed. This is why even the high-and-mighty white man, albeit wealthy and well-dressed, is still a pariah and thus orthodox Hindus won't induct them into Vedic study either.

One can also ask of you whether you think only Vedic study affords literacy. If not, then no sUdrA or mleccha is ever discouraged from higher study in these non-spiritual fields. They are free to 'learn', get a job, and earn money and become fluid in the socio-economic scene; at least in urban India. Case in point, the Indian government's quota system ensures that they don't even need any intellectual capacity to be admitted! No wonder the label "made in India" is the butt of jokes!


Just look at the following injunctions against Shudra described in Manu Smrithi.
8.270 says Shudra are of low origin.
2.31 says a Shudra must be named something contemptible
3.164 equates a breeder of sporting-dogs, a falconer, one who defiles maidens, he who delights in injuring living creatures, he who gains his subsistence, with Shudra.
8.147 says a Brahmana can just seize the goods of Shudra for he is not permitted to have any property
9.178 says a son a Brahmana begets through lust on a Shudra female is a living corpse -- who is to determine it is by lust or true love, I don’t know!!
10.129 says a Shudra is not allowed to accumulate wealth because Shudra with wealth will give pain to Brahmanas.
11.131 & 132 equate the punishment for murdering a Shudra with that of cat, dog, frog, bird, etc. The punishment can be as mild and beneficial to Brahmana as giving ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana.Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate. Some may see humor in this, but normal people are rightly mortified by all this degrading vitriol piled upon a group of people just because they were born Shudra. If the Varna system is for purifying one’s soul, that will lead to enlightenment someday, what is the need for these degrading injunctions?

Please give a SINGLE INSTANCE where this kind of punishment has actually happened.

Also, svAdharmA is for the betterment of the community as a whole; it actually discourages individualistic thinking; thus, anyone who veers from one's svAdharmA should be reprimanded. At least, this was the case in the good old days. In fact, adherence to one's dharma will enable them to burn through their vAsanAs much quicker than if one were to assume a new varna. Thus, it is still in the best interest of the individual, as weird as that sounds, to keep their Varna and follow their prescribed duty in this life. This, by the way, is also the reason Hinduism doesn't accept so-called converts!

A simple example is if Kobe Bryant stopped playing basketball and instead started managing people's money while Steven Schwarz from Blackstone started playing basketball, we'd all lose something! And the LA Lakers would suck even more!


One may be tempted to brush aside Manu Smrithi as an unimportant or irrelevant text. But, if you did, you will be contradicting great acharyas like Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja, both of whom cite Taittria Samhita 2.2.10.2 to extol MS as medicine for society’s ills, like an anti-biotic perhaps. Both these acharyas profusely quote from MS to bolster their arguments. A widely respected commentator of the acclaimed Tamil text on morality called Thirukkural, who happens to be Brahmin (Parimelazhagar), uses MS extensively in his commentary. So, as we can see, MS was held in high regard among Brahmin orthodoxy and intellectuals, and this is still true among the Brahmin orthodoxy.

Manu Smriti is indeed important for living in society; mainly for grhstas. And if any drug-addicted hippies (pariahs) come asking to learn the Vedas, we'll keep the lead molten and ready. ;)



Religion is normally promoted as a way of achieving something exalted. Yet, the Varna system, as presented to us by Hindu religious texts and acharyas, keeps a large section of the population from advanced religious study strictly based on birth, not on desire or ability.

Varna is the only reason India was not completely destroyed by the mlecchas. It is the only reason Hinduism still breathes in India (and the world). The application of it has been imperfect at times, and this is something that is undeniable whether we are for or against Varnashrama Dharma. Yet, the system itself, which is akin to the hierarchical system present in nature wherein each particle, creature, living and non-living, serves its purpose in the grand scheme of things, is absolutely perfect. Such is the lIlA of IswarA. Otherwise God would be a duffer and we'd instead be Abrahamics, praying to "YAHOO".


Based on all these, saying the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism is, IMO, callously mild.

That is why Hindus, real Hindus I should add, never say Varna is a 'blot' on Hinduism!


Some people say this is not the fault of the Varna system, Brahmanas are not involved; it is all political and economic. Why then are the conflicts falling along caste lines? A poor upper caste may find his lot not very different from that of a poor Dalit, but he will still side with the rich of his own caste. There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty.

I am sure you would be glad that your daughter marries a pariah right? Take responsibility and make sure you invite pariahs into your house for dinner and let them cook the food for you. Have you done your part and married a mleccha?


Another defense some offer is that people don’t follow the Varna system as intended. If only they did, everything will be perfect. If this was so, then we have to blame the one who designed this system in the first place. God is said to have designed this system, and this almighty god designed a system that was so easily subverted by mere humans? With all his omnipotence and omniscience, why did he not design a system that people could follow properly?

This is because the system only appears imperfect from our perspective. It is a zero-sum game after all; at least according to Advaita so it is rather futile to claim it is a 'poor' system etc.

Think of it in terms of Young's double-slit experiment. The light that travels through the first slit is the imperishable and immutable Atman. The second slit is the cosmic mind, Mahat. From that the apparent variegations (light/dark pattern) seem stark and contrasting yet there is no real pattern to begin with! Thus, how can the "imperfect" light, as you say, produce patterns (which are imperfect by definition)? The answer is, the light is not imperfect; only our (the 2nd slit) experience/perspective/understanding of it is.

And, hypothetically speaking, do you think even if Varna disappeared humans would not find ways to take advantage of each other? What about the 5.6 BILLION people who are not Hindus (mlecchas)?? I suppose they are really egalitarian and peaceful and progressive! :rolleyes:

As Swami Vivekananda said, "Caste is a plan we want to follow- - .There is no country in the world without caste. The plan in India is to make everybody a Brahmin, the Brahmin being the ideal of humanity. Indian caste is better than the caste that prevails which prevails in Europe or America."


With world opinion settled against decent based discrimination of any kind, continued support for Varna system on any basis will only have negative impact on how Hinduism is viewed. This is why Varna system is a blot that must be removed as quickly and as completely as possible.

Since when do we, as Indians and Hindus, need to care about world opinion? Especially, a world filled with mlecchas? You must truly be joking. A mleccha by definition is going to be anti-Varnashrama Dharma.


For all its greatness in advanced philosophical thinking, Hindu religion is inextricably linked to Varna/Caste system.

Good! And it is here to stay. Without Varnashrama Dharma, there is no Hinduism.


Many a religion have come and gone.

Except for Hinduism as it is as perennial as the grass. It is Sanatana Dharma. Barbarians (muslims) couldn't remove it, cultural terrorists (christians) couldn't destroy it, pseudo-secular "Hindus" can't do anything about it. India was, is, and always will be Hindu.


I have said all this because I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist. If there must be a religion for society to prosper, then I rather it is Hinduism of Bhagavat Ramjanuja’s kind where the Iswara is not a blob of useless consciousness, but a loving god never separated from each of us.

You know, at first I wanted to believe you. Except, you wrote something on another forum and that really changed my perception of you and your intent on this forum. To summarize, you wrote that the Tirumala Tirupati Temple in AP was actually a Jain temple and Hindus FORCEFULLY destroyed it and build a Hindu temple on it! Such idiocy even muslims and christians are not capable of. That, my fellow "human", is only possible of a true pseudo-secularist like yourself.

To summarize Varna; it is most important for marriage (continuing Gotra and maintaining caste purity) and Vedic study. And only for these two sUdrAs and mlecchas should not be allowed. Other than that, there is no reason to make distinctions. Just know your place in (Hindu) society! That's all!

atanu
05 April 2010, 11:36 PM
Nara,

Think of it in terms of Young's double-slit experiment. The light that travels through the first slit is the imperishable and immutable Atman. The second slit is the cosmic mind, Mahat. From that the apparent variegations (light/dark pattern) seem stark and contrasting yet there is no real pattern to begin with! Thus, how can the "imperfect" light, as you say, produce patterns (which are imperfect by definition)? The answer is, the light is not imperfect; only our (the 2nd slit) experience/perspective/understanding of it is.



Namaste TTA

A nice example.

Om namah Shivaya

amith vikram
06 April 2010, 01:33 AM
.

All the same, if you ask any Dalit what they want most, the first thing they want is self-respect. Self-respect is something no one can give, it is asserted, and when they do assert it, they have found violent retribution time and again, our newspapers regularly report such incidences all the time.

This system is a blot on Hinduism. The sooner it removed and washed clean, the better.
namaste,
how much ever i tried to convince myself,this one thing stared right in my eyes.most of the 'upper castes'(god knows how) show indifference towards 'dalits',yes.this,i believe is coz of the present economic inequality,more than anythin else.somes drives a luxury car and someone drives an auto for a living.this is the reason for the divide and not the varna s/m:) .
a poor brahmin feels uncomfortable among rich people.i'll challenge you,if once the economic equality is restored,nobody gives a damn abt caste.and moreover,who ever has power and wealth is the most respected in the world.
who is ruling the country now?who has reservations?who has protested?

saidevo
06 April 2010, 03:31 AM
namate Nara.

You said in post no.77:
One instance in particular is instructive of the extent to which even these progressive Brahmins with a conscience, but not ready to give up their Brahmin identity, were ready to go. In the Gurukulam style school in Tirunelveli district, funded by Tamilnadu Congress and run by an ardent freedom fighter and congressman, one V.V.S. Iyer, the boys were segregated between Brahmins and Non-Brahmins. In 1925, when some NB's like EVR objected, V.V.S. Iyer opted to close the school rather than disallow this practice of segregation.
*****

I have already stated that KalliDaikkurichi Yajnesvara Sarma, later changed the Ashram established by VVS aiyar into a harijan hostel. Yet to choose to rake up the controversy.

That VVS aiyar was an orthodox brahmin does not in any way diminish his glory. He was a militant freedom fighter whom the British government was seeking to arrest. He was the mentor of VAnchinAtha aiyar who assassinated General Ashe, the Collector of Tirunvelveli. He was also a close friend of MahAkavi SubrahmaNya BhArati. The less said about the activities of people like EV Ramasamy Naicker, the better. Here is an extract about the CheranmAdevi gurukulam controversy, from VVS aiyar's intimate associate SuddhAnanta BhArati, a great mystic, poet and freedom fighter (emphasis added):

'Pilgrim of eternity'
in The Hindu newspaper dated Oct 16, 2001
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/2001/10/16/stories/1316017c.htm

"The Swamiji's intimate association with the veteran freedom fighter and Tamil scholar, V.V.S. Iyer, is another landmark in his narrative. V.V.S. Iyer swam across the English Channel to elude the British police who were after him as a violent Indian seditionist. Iyer, on his return to India, set up a Gurukula at Chernamahadevi in Tirunelveli district, designed to prepare our young men in the spirit of hoary ancient culture of India, to become true servants of their motherland.

This entirely honourable and worthy effort encountered opposition from politically motivated, narrow-minded, anti-Brahmin communalists. The opposition contended that the Gurukulam idea of V.V.S. Iyer would perpetuate caste division and backwardness of the non-Brahmin classes of society.

This was clean contrary to the magnificent idealism of V.V.S. Iyer. He believed that there was a very noble and valuable ideal in the institution of the Gurukula, which deserved to be cherished and revived with modification required for its efficient functioning in modern times. The Swamiji tells us this story and of its tragic climax when V.V.S. Iyer lost his life in a courageous, but futile effort to save his darling daughter, who was caught up in the whirlpool of the famous Papanasam Falls of Tiruneveli district."

MahaHrada
06 April 2010, 04:08 AM
My points were made only with respect to the Varna system. I have not criticized the Hindu philosophical system in general. If you think I did, please point it out to me so that I can correct myself.

Frankly said i don&#180;t know if you did that, but due to the objective you did not pick quotes of brahmins that show respect towards all jatis, by implication it is posssible especially for westerners to get a wrong overall impression about India and the interaction between the communities.


You have provided the most powerful argument yet in favor of a varna system:

This was not my intention on the contrary i like to abstain from defending or maligning any societal system i have not sufficently studied or even throughouly thought about these matters.


In this respect, the American society offers a model worth ...

But what i can definetly say is that contrary to your opinion especially the "american way of life" appears to be the most backward because it is endangering the very balance of our planet, due to the size of what is called the ecological footprint, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_footprint) that means if others adapt this behaviour all species including our own, and the whole ecological system will perish. That alone shows that every other available societal alternative must be better.

That there is something wrong with the "ugly american" the rest of the world had this impression already for quite some time, without the need for any scientific proof that this attitude is a threat to the very survival of the species.

Concerning India it seems that a lot of diverse ideologies belive to be in possesion of the key to improve the society, whether it is Islamocrazy, Christianocrazy, Maocrazy, Commucrazy, Democrazy or capitalist Meritocrazy.
These "saviours" of mother india have a lot in common in my opinion. They often externalise their own internal differences and project what they perceive as evil or backward unto India and the Hindu religion and culture, instead of trying to solve their internal conflicts without exploiting or exterminating other cultures as a means to sustain their coherence and ethnocentric identity. To strengthen their existence as a singular egalitarian entity they have to impose their supremacist world view on the others who by being perceived as backward, add to the ethnocentric or ideological identity that might otherwise naturally desintegrate and segments of society would tend to drop out of the common identity and revert back into the natural state of a self sufficent system, of internally competing jati/varna groups, would society dare to be accomodating, instead of only suppressing and exterminating, what is perceived as a "backward" or "evil" external entity.

Tocqueville marvels at the fact that the most aristocratic States of the South have given the signal for the democratization. “In this way—a singular phenomenon—the democratic impulse is seen to be most irresistible in the States where the aristocracy had the most roots. The state of Maryland, which had been founded by the great landowners, was the first to proclaim the universal vote and to introduce into the whole of its government the most democratic forms.” This driving role does not come from a perverse passion of the aristocrazy to destroy their own legitimacy but from the fact that the plantation economy, that ensures their existence, presupposes the presence of an important black population, whose physical difference stimulates the sentiment of white equality.
Emmanuel Todd, The Fate of Immigrants: Assimilation and segregation in the Western democracies

kd gupta
06 April 2010, 10:14 AM
Isavasya, let me be clear, I am not taking anything back, the only thing I regret is allowing an opening for a frontal attack on a triviality while the main points remain unanswered. A lot of people in HDF routinely attack me in a personal way, and you are one of them. Therefore, I am not inetersed in having a discussion with you. Sorry!
Discussions are filling the dharm forum pages , but Prof Nara is taking Varna as Vrana , the boil at heart and is unaware of the steps Mother India is taking . Goswamiji clears here…..
jimi sisu tana brana hoi gosai, matu chirava kathina ki nai
timi raghupati nija dasa kara harahin mana hita lagi,
tulasidasa aise prabhuhi kasa na bhajahu bhrama tyagi
as when a boil appears on the body of a child,
the mother gets it opened like one having a stony heart.
Although at first (while the boil is being cut open) the child experiences pain
and cries helplessly the mother minds not the child.s agony, in her anxiety to see
the child cured.
Be Indian and love Indian .

Nara
06 April 2010, 11:31 AM
….. by implication it is posssible especially for westerners to get a wrong overall impression about India and the interaction between the communities.

You give me way too much credit and way too little credit to the westerners. Those who are likely to read all this, are not going to be persuaded by the opinions of a single person. Also, the best way to persuade the westerners is to remove the blot clean.


….That there is something wrong with the "ugly american" the rest of the world had this impression already for quite some time, without the need for any scientific proof that this attitude is a threat to the very survival of the species. I do agree with all you say about the environmental catastrophe resulting from mindless use of fossil fuels. While it is the west in general and US in particular that brought the entire world to the edge, now, China and India with huge populations slowly developing a thirst for the same energy sources will surely push all of us into the abyss unless an alternative is found, and found soon. In this respect, U.S. is the only nation with the technical wherewithal to pull us back from the brink, if we can keep the naysayers like Sen. Inhofe at bay. Well, all this is interesting, but way off topic!!

Cheers!

MahaHrada
06 April 2010, 01:04 PM
China and India with huge populations slowly developing a thirst for the same energy sources will surely push all of us into the abyss unless an alternative is found, and found soon. In this respect, U.S. is the only nation with the technical wherewithal to pull us back from the brink,

That is the true egalitarian spirit! Greedy for the fossil fuels themselves, unwilling to change their attitude and learn, but denying or trying to restrict the use of the "backward savages" in China and India because, all off a sudden, that would push us into the abyss.

Technology has brought us to the brink of destruction and of course now it is going to save us from the very same? Probably not, but the the age old traditions and humbler more virtous lifestyle that would have been able to prevent such a catastophe to ever occur in the first place, has to be reformend and cleansed by those very people whose lifestyle only brought pestilence and destruction on humanity, thereby eradicating the last hope we have to survive, which is a humbler and more virtous non invasive lifestyle? Only adopting of the brahmin custom of vegetarian diet in the west or at least reducing the sickening mountains of meat the diet of an average amercian "world saviour" consist of, would already have a remarkable impact on the environment.
We are touching the tip of an iceberg here of what the world could learn from the "savages" if they where not too busy saving them and instead would stop and listen.

The world would be a much happier and better place if all the diverse Messiahs, prophets, freedom fighters, and other saviours of the world who tried to reform everyone else, but refuse to realise and transform their own self, would have died an infant death.

A 2006 United Nations report summarized the devastation caused by the meat industry by calling it "one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global."
Meat and environment http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp

NayaSurya
06 April 2010, 01:43 PM
Forgive the intrusion, but for the sake of this great filthy pool I swim in...I must come.

American is a misrepresentation of the United States.

The people here are from everyplace under the stars. If there is a problem in America...it's a problem with humanity itself.

"Ugly American"

This is the ugly truth.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg/1000px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg.png

It's ugly humanity.

The world has only to look in the mirror to see the problem.

America is a pool of filthy water...with the feet of millions of immigrants from all over the world dipping their feet inside.

Greed is what makes the water dirty.

My Cherokee ancestors were sold as slaves to the white settlers to spare them being removed from Kentucky.

But, even after such an evil, I choose to live here. Because I believe things can change.

MahaHrada
06 April 2010, 01:59 PM
"Ugly American"



Not every american is an "ugly american" it is a special term :
wikipedia:
Ugly American is an epithet used to refer to perceptions of loud, arrogant, demeaning, thoughtless and ethnocentric behavior of American citizens mainly abroad, but also at home. Although the term is usually associated with or applied to travelers and tourists, it also applies to US corporate businesses in the international.
Pejorative term for Americans traveling or living abroad who remain ignorant of local culture and judge everything by American standards
The Bush Administration was often referred to as "The Ugly American" because of its foreign policies


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American

NayaSurya
06 April 2010, 02:53 PM
Yes I am familiar with the term, I have given up most television but I did watched a documentary about tourists and they called them this name.

I do realize the image of America has been greatly reduced, it's well deserved. I just was trying to show how diverse the situation is. Especially in consumption of fossil fuels.


I hope that our young country could still learn from older civilizations. I hope that America will no longer be a cause, but a part of the solution.

*Also, it makes me happy that you do not see us all this way. Though I would not blame you. I promise you, that my children are being raised to not be egotistical American family that thinks we are the greatest nation. I make sure they understand that this world has many more ancient and experienced countries and that we would do well to listen and to learn from them.

MahaHrada
07 April 2010, 06:55 AM
I hope that our young country could still learn from older civilizations. I hope that America will no longer be a cause, but a part of the solution.

*Also, it makes me happy that you do not see us all this way. Though I would not blame you.

We live all in the same world and are despite outward differences essentially of one substance and mind and i am not discrminative against anyone because of his nationality or color, race, caste or creed, but i object against all the self proclaimend saviours of the world who want to force their pet ideology or dogma, religion or societal model or their backward morals or whatever as a role model on the rest of humanity.

In my opinion to choose americas ruthless meritocrazy mainly based on competition and consumerism and suppression of the dark skinned, as a role model for the world is very naive. I could understand and discuss the merits and demerits, if someone would choose an educated and open minded european society like french universalism that accomodates differences under some common rules, as a role model for an egalitarian society, but the USA? I have been to many places in the world and have also met a lot of americans and almost everybody displayed an irrational glorification of their nation, their education, society, military and government.

Nara
07 April 2010, 11:06 AM
Dear MahaHrada,

We have gone far off field from the main topic of this thread. That is not a problem, I am not a stickler for thread purity.

I agree with your indictment of the U.S. I would say the same things as you and more, only in a little less emotional way. Much of the world’s problems today can be traced directly or indirectly to the U.S. political and economic policies, both within U.S. and outside its borders. Their support of dictators all around the word from Marcos of Philippines, Suharto of Indonesia, Shah of Iran, the Saudi family, Mubarak of Egypt, and a whole host of brutal dictators in Latin America will stand in infamy in the history of mankind. Let me provide you with a few links that underscore these points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

http://rebelreports.com/

The hegemonic and imperialist policies of U.S. is nothing new, look at how Texas became part of the U.S., or the Monroe doctrine and the vile theory of manifest destiny. U.S. has always treated the rest of the world with disdain. Bush took the mask off for a brief 8 years, and now Obama has put the mask back on.

At the same time, it is also remarkable that this society turned on a dime on the vexing social issue of race. Until the 1960s blacks were segregated in the most demeaning way. Yet, today, openly racist attitude is not tolerated except in the extreme fringes. I am unable to understand why we should not look at this and see whether any of this can be adapted for our conditions in India. The French model of liberty, equality and brotherhood, is a wonderful thing as well. We must try to inculcate these ideals within our society. But, what I see in Indian society is the eager embrace of all things American, including those that stand for the “ugly American” both you and I find obnoxious.


Vegitarianism
You referred to Brahmin custom of vegetarian diet. Brahmins of Kashmir or Bengal may not look kindly if their meat or fish is taken away from them. If you go back in years, Brahmins seem to have feasted in meat. Pointing to Jains will be more apt here.

Here also the U.S. society has come a long way in a short period of time. When I first came to the U.S. many moons ago, Americans did not know what vegetarian meant. Many would ask me whether I could eat chicken. Today, I can get vegetarian options even in a steakhouse. In this context, let me refer you to Michael Pollan’s popular books at http://www.michaelpollan.com (http://www.michaelpollan.com/).

Technology
Responsibility for environmental catastrophe we are facing is squarely upon the west in general and U.S. in particular. China, India, and other developing poor nations of the world have every right to the same standard of living the west now seem unable to give up. But, going back to a “purer” time is not practical and just not going to happen. Only science and technology can help us achieve the desires of all without pushing ourselves into the abyss. For this, the technological leadership of U.S. is essential.


Cheers!

NayaSurya
07 April 2010, 11:56 AM
It's an amazing thing that you both have brought up the French model.

Because this is how I was able to see beyond the mindless patriotism in America. I listened to French news broadcasts. It's true. If you want to see the truth, sometimes you have to leave your eyes and see things through another.

The steady evolution of their government is a beautiful thing. I have hope it will someday be the same for us.

saidevo
07 April 2010, 12:08 PM
namaste Nara.

You said in his post 90 (emphasis added):
You referred to Brahmin custom of vegetarian diet. Brahmins of Kashmir or Bengal may not look kindly if their meat or fish is taken away from them. If you go back in years, Brahmins seem to have feasted in meat. Pointing to Jains will be more apt here.
*****

I wonder what sort of a statement is this one. Perhaps you might want to clarify that you say 'seem to' because:

• you have read somewhere about Brahmins 'feasting on meat' but are reluctant to give the reference out of deference to your own community?

• you have read somewhere about Brahmins 'feasting on meat' but you don't yourself believe or are sure of it?

• from the animal sacrifices made in the yajnas of ancient India, you are sure that masses of their meat were consumed and so it 'seems to' you that brahmins must have partaken them?

• you know that your statement will surely be refuted, so you might get away with a 'seem to'? :)

Whatever your opinion as to brahmins in ancient India 'feasting on meat', I would rather believe the opinion of a mahAn--sage, like KAnchi ParamAchArya about it:

Is Sacrificial Killing Justified?
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap23.htm

"It is totally false to state that Brahmins performed sacrifices only to satisfy their appetite for meat and that the talk of pleasing the deities was only a pretext. There are rules regarding the meat to be carved out from a sacrificial animal, the part of the body from which it is to be taken and the quantity each rtvik can partake of as prasada (idavatarana). This is not more than the size of a pigeon-pea and it is to be swallowed without anything added to taste. There may be various reasons for you to attack the system of sacrifices but it would be preposterous to do so on the score that Brahmins practised deception by making them a pretext to eat meat."

Elsewhere you stated that anumAna--inference, is an admissible way of pramANa--proof, for you. Perhaps you are using it in the case of brahmins 'feasting on meat'.

smaranam
07 April 2010, 12:20 PM
Namaste

Certainly , America is a land of immigrants, so diversity is part of it.
The environmental issues, green thinking, vegetarianism, sustainable agriculture are all things to be worked on.

However, overall, the Americans i feel are good problem solvers, portray equality and liberty, create good and safe communities, have a good work ethic and identify and value potential in things people and groups. (Not saying that these things are not present in other parts of the world) The children, as NayaSurya says, are also being educated a lot about the rest of the world and are generally well behaved ,mature and have empathy.

smaranam
07 April 2010, 12:24 PM
supposed oppression of Dalits in the hands of brahmins even in these days

Namaste

The priests of the Temple are next to BhagavAn . For me, they are like the angels on earth, who bring the Lord's blessings , bless on the Lord's behalf, and are a solace to all souls.

They actually bring divinity to our hands, shower divinity over us.

The brahmins in general, as i can see , are exemplary in the sattvic qualities which can be inspiring. Its unthinkable that they could be cause of any unrest, and especially, have anything to do with hindering the country's economic growth.

Nara
07 April 2010, 01:20 PM
….I wonder what sort of a statement is this one. Perhaps you might want to clarify that you say 'seem to'

As I was typing this part of my response I knew very well that if I write anything about Brahmins that contradicts your preferred view of Brahmins, you and your friends will come after me like a pack of wolves making all sorts of personal comments. When you go into a rough neighborhood I think discretion is better part of valor. So I hedged a little and obviously it did not help.

But since you ask, let me cite this link from Wiki and you can study for yourself. Who you believe is your business, but truth is what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Brahmin_diet

satay
07 April 2010, 02:28 PM
Namaskar Prof. Nara,


As I was typing this part of my response I knew very well that if I write anything about Brahmins that contradicts your preferred view of Brahmins, you and your friends will come after me like a pack of wolves making all sorts of personal comments. When you go into a rough neighborhood I think discretion is better part of valor. So I hedged a little and obviously it did not help.


You are not in a 'rough' neighbourhood, you are in Hindu Dharma Forums. You chose to join this cummunity. You have spoken ill of Hinduism, ill of Varna dharma, ill of Indians in these forums. When other members question your insensitive mindless, baseless, useless assertions, please do not call them wolves.

Thanks.

MahaHrada
07 April 2010, 03:06 PM
We have gone far off field from the main topic of this thread.

Yes and i have not been disciplined enough to maintain my silence about the subject of jati/varna.
I do not object to your facts regarding the brahmin diet. But as usual i do not agree to the relevance you attribute to these facts and feel it is as extremist as the usual complete denial of some vedantins. Notwithstanding exceptions the general recommendation in the vedas and even in the tantras was to avoid meat and so overall the diet included either very little but preferably no meat. I can give shastra pramana, from the vedas and tantras for that.
There must be some old thread on HDF where i already quoted the relevant parts of the vedas. I can search for that posting and also quote the relevant passages from Tantraloka, where it is said that though eating meat and drinking alkohol is natural for a human it is recommend to abstain.
I doubt that at times the sacrifical feasting was only gluttony, there are some authors that promote that view, but it seems to me that these are generally extremists with vested interests, which is in my opinion also true about some vedantists who try to belittle or ignore the use of intoxicants and meat by brahmins and even go so far as to deny that soma is an intoxicant or that some Yagynas use recipes for alcoholic brews even if confronted with convincing evidence.
For me all the twisting, hand waving and evasion of obvious facts is not necessary, on the contrary sacrifical use of meat and intoxicants is still common within kaula and other shaiva and shakta paramparas, whereas in the vedic shrauta tradition and smarta tantric paramparas generally nowadays substitutes are used, but in the past obviously not.
But all the evidence for meat eating habits or use of intoxicants, at some localities and in some time in the history, mostly during sacrifices, do not change the general observation that the Brahmin custom is and was overall to follow a vegeterian diet.

Nara
07 April 2010, 04:01 PM
....You are not in a 'rough' neighbourhood, you are in Hindu Dharma Forums. You chose to join this cummunity. You have spoken ill of Hinduism, ill of Varna dharma, ill of Indians in these forums. When other members question your insensitive mindless, baseless, useless assertions, please do not call them wolves. .


I saw no public rebuke of some very vile statements recently made. They are in fact driving away a few non-Indians who are favorably disposed to Hinduism.

Also, you also did not interfere, not that I wanted you to, when people were repeatedly making personal comments, even after I requested them not to. These people have even come after me when I was having a civil and decent conversation with somebody else. To me, when a clique of members repeatedly make personal comments, they are like a pack of wolves.

If my points are baseless assertions, then prove it. I have provided evidence for all I have been saying. You take the trouble of saying my statements are mindless, useless or insensitive. How come you did not find it necessary to say anything about http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=42596&postcount=12 and http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=42611&postcount=20. Did you think these were very thoughtful, sensitive, and useful? All you did was place the thread under admin review, no rebuke for these vile posts.

Look satay, I left this forum on my own. For whatever reasons you and atanu initiated PM exchanges and finally you invited me back. If you think only propaganda is allowed and I must tow along or leave, just say so, I will leave without a hesitation.

p.s. rough neighborhood is not HDF, it is topic about Brahmins

satay
07 April 2010, 04:24 PM
Namaskar Prof. Nara,



Also, you also did not interfere, not that I wanted you to, when people were repeatedly making personal comments, even after I requested them not to. These people have even come after me when I was having a civil and decent conversation with somebody else. To me, when a clique of members repeatedly make personal comments, they are like a pack of wolves.


I had already warned you in our PM exchanges that this might happen. When you come to a religious forum and post insensitive, thoughtless comments without any base or proof it is expected that members will get emotional. I can't control that, I had already told you about that.



If my points are baseless assertions, then prove it. I have provided evidence for all I have been saying.

Your 'evidence' for your assertions is 'wikipedia'? Do you know that any Tom, Harry and Pappu can create an ID and start editing wiki pages?



You take the trouble of saying my statements are mindless, useless or insensitive. How come you did not find it necessary to say anything about http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=42596&postcount=12 and http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=42611&postcount=20. Did you think these were very thoughtful, sensitive, and useful? All you did was place the thread under admin review, no rebuke for these vile posts.


Yes, the thread is under review. In fact, there are several threads that are under review. Time is the limitation I have. In time, all those threads under review will be cleaned up and opened.




Look satay, I left this forum on my own. For whatever reasons you and atanu initiated PM exchanges and finally you invited me back. If you think only propaganda is allowed and I must tow along or leave, just say so, I will leave without a hesitation.


I think it was started by atanu because he believed that a reasonable discussion could be had with you. However, after having read most of your posts here and on other threads, I can say that your posts are baseless. Clearly, you are against hinduism (or any religion for that matter), against indians (brahmins in particular), agianst india and wrong intrepret hindu sastra even after having repeatedly told the correct meanings by other members.


I bent the rules of 'positive presentation' of hinduism against the wills of many members of HDF, simply because I wanted to see what 'evidence' you have about any of the ills you want to discuss, yet, what I see is 'wiki' or wrong interpretations of sastra.

If your propaganda is to show ills of hinduism, hindus, india, indians or brhamins with evidence from 'wiki' then I think HDF is not the right fit for you.

And I will close this discussion here with a 'heavy heart' of my own... but will let you have the last words.

This thread among others under review will remain as grafiti on the walls of a temple.

Thanks.

Nara
08 April 2010, 07:12 AM
Satay, I did not choose to come here and muck things up. Saidevo invited me to come and at that time he was fully aware of my views. Later, I left on my own because you stressed the "positive presentation" part of the FAQ.

Later, you invited me back, I did not ask to come back. At that time you were also fully aware of my views. To bend rules or not is your call. I did not ask you to. Now you criticize me as some sort of rabble rouser. Have it your way. But, I think most reasonable people will agree that the kinds of posts I cited do more damage to Hindu Dharma than I can even if I try.

I made a few nice friends here, and for that I am grateful. To them, I would like to say, you can look me up at http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/. Even though it has caste name in its URL, it is an open and inviting place for all with civil debates in the most part.

Cheers!