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orlando
11 September 2006, 11:19 AM
Namaste all.
It is a very good site about Shaiva Siddhanta,the shaivite tradition that I decided to follow.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/

You may find many interesting information in the Online Books sections.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/

For all hindus (even not shaivites) I really suggest to read online the book How to Become
a (Better) Hindu
A Guide for Seekers
and
Born Hindus.


by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami
A history-making manual, interreligious study and names list, with stories by Westerners who entered Hinduism and Hindus who deepened their faith


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/images/hbh_cover.jpg


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/

Just click on Complete Text Now On-Line!

Regards,
Orlando.

sarabhanga
12 September 2006, 01:45 AM
Namaste Orlando,

Good choice ;)

orlando
28 September 2006, 12:24 PM
Namaste Orlando,

Good choice ;)
Namaste Shri Sarabhanga.
Thank you for your encouragement.
By reading Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami's teachings every day I feel more and more that I did a good choice.
Regards,
Orlando.

Arjuna
28 September 2006, 04:10 PM
Namaste Orlando,
Good choice ;)

Fully agree and support.

Sri Subramunia Swami was an outstanding Shaiva master. My Kaula acharya knew him personally and highly respected, as well as his successor, Sri Velan Swami, who once visited Moscow.

Saiva Siddhanta Church is a proper choice.

Namah Shivaya,
A

orlando
05 October 2006, 12:36 PM
Fully agree and support.

Sri Subramunia Swami was an outstanding Shaiva master. My Kaula acharya knew him personally and highly respected, as well as his successor, Sri Velan Swami, who once visited Moscow.

Saiva Siddhanta Church is a proper choice.

Namah Shivaya,
A
Namaste.
Shri Arjuna,please note that I said that I choosed Shaiva-Siddhanta religion.I didn't say that I choosed Saiva SIddhanta Church.It would be a very diffucult thing,since there aren't Shaiva Siddhanta Church temples in Italy,the europen country where I live.But there is a Lord Shiva temple where Shaiva-Siddhanta religion is teached and practiced and there are other hindu temples in Italy:to Lord Ganesha,to Divine Mather and to Lord Dattatreya.
http://www.ashramgita.com/e-index2.htm

Regards,
Orlando.

Arjuna
05 October 2006, 06:09 PM
Namaste.
Shri Arjuna,please note that I said that I choosed Shaiva-Siddhanta religion.I didn't say that I choosed Saiva SIddhanta Church.It would be a very diffucult thing,since there aren't Shaiva Siddhanta Church temples in Italy,the europen country where I live.But there is a Lord Shiva temple where Shaiva-Siddhanta religion is teached and practiced and there are other hindu temples in Italy:to Lord Ganesha,to Divine Mather and to Lord Dattatreya.


The only significant difference is that modern Tamil SS is dualistic, while Sri Subramunia Swami promoted a monistic trend.
In any case, Shiva is Shiva ;)

Namah Shivaya,
A

orlando
09 November 2006, 12:10 PM
The only significant difference is that modern Tamil SS is dualistic, while Sri Subramunia Swami promoted a monistic trend.
In any case, Shiva is Shiva ;)

Namah Shivaya,
A

You should know that Sri Subramuniaswamy considered arranged marriage a very good thing.By reading some of your posts I am aware that you are contrary to arranged marriage.I am it too!
Regards,
Orlando.

Arjuna
10 November 2006, 05:15 AM
[QUOTE=Bhakta of God]You should know that Sri Subramuniaswamy considered arranged marriage a very good thing.By reading some of your posts I am aware that you are contrary to arranged marriage.I am it too![QUOTE]

Sri Subramunia Swami mights have held this kind of opinion, but so what? If one is saint or Siddha it doesn't mean that every his opinion is the ultimate truth. In any case i think that in such matter as marriage one has to rely only on his own will. And not on whatever opinions of scriptures or masters.

I see arranged marriage as utmostly irresponsible thing. It may be easy to live in such a way like an animal, when every decision is taken by others - including choice of a life-partner. But is this what human life is meant for? Indeed, it is better to live as sannyasi than to stay with woman/man whom U love not. Arranged marriage is in 90% of cases a hypocricy and lie. This can result in no good either in spiritual sense or in sense of bringing up kids in a proper manner. It may happen that in insignificant minority of cases arranged marriage turns into true love relatonships. But very irresponsible to rely on such possibility...

It is always needed to separate social norms of some society which got mixed into scriptures from religion per se. Arranged marriage is an ugly custom of male-dominated societies. It has to be totally stopped.

saidevo
10 November 2006, 11:49 AM
Arranged marriage is an ugly custom of male-dominated societies. It has to be totally stopped.


Marriages are made in heaven! Inasmuch as a marriage--either by choice or by chance--is decided by a person's karma, it would be too simplistic to brand either kind of marriage as good, bad or ugly.

satay
10 November 2006, 12:05 PM
I see arranged marriage as utmostly irresponsible thing. It may be easy to live in such a way like an animal, when every decision is taken by others - including choice of a life-partner. But is this what human life is meant for? Indeed, it is better to live as sannyasi than to stay with woman/man whom U love not. Arranged marriage is in 90% of cases a hypocricy and lie. This can result in no good either in spiritual sense or in sense of bringing up kids in a proper manner. It may happen that in insignificant minority of cases arranged marriage turns into true love relatonships. But very irresponsible to rely on such possibility...

It is always needed to separate social norms of some society which got mixed into scriptures from religion per se. Arranged marriage is an ugly custom of male-dominated societies. It has to be totally stopped.

namaste,
Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about regarding arranged marriages. Perhaps you have seen too many 'one-sided' movies that present arrange marriages as some type of evil thing. Just because the west doesn't agree with the customs of India doesn't mean that Indians are going to embrace the western materialist 'I am number one' attitude.

Arjuna
12 November 2006, 01:39 PM
namaste,
Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about regarding arranged marriages. Perhaps you have seen too many 'one-sided' movies that present arrange marriages as some type of evil thing. Just because the west doesn't agree with the customs of India doesn't mean that Indians are going to embrace the western materialist 'I am number one' attitude.

It's not the thing :). I do not watch Indian movies at all.
Arranged marriage is not only Indian custom, but rather common thing typical for patriarchal societies. It is as such ANTI-SPIRITUAL, for it is based on material interests (whether financial, social or astrological) and NOT ON LOVE. Any marriage devoid of Love is a sin and a harmful for spiritual progress restriction.

India doesn't have to follow the West. But every human has to be free in his/her choice of his/her beloved!

Arjuna
12 November 2006, 01:45 PM
Marriages are made in heaven! Inasmuch as a marriage--either by choice or by chance--is decided by a person's karma, it would be too simplistic to brand either kind of marriage as good, bad or ugly.

This is a nice theory, but it is a theory only.
Karma is a concept of mind. But what i talk about is relying on that which is beyond karma — on Love. Arranged marriage is solely karma-dependent thing and thus anti-spiritual.

satay
12 November 2006, 03:23 PM
It's not the thing :). I do not watch Indian movies at all.
Arranged marriage is not only Indian custom, but rather common thing typical for patriarchal societies. It is as such ANTI-SPIRITUAL, for it is based on material interests (whether financial, social or astrological) and NOT ON LOVE. Any marriage devoid of Love is a sin and a harmful for spiritual progress restriction.

India doesn't have to follow the West. But every human has to be free in his/her choice of his/her beloved!

namaste,
I see your point though not sure I entirely agree with you on 'love'. Love is a funny thing. You are implying that if a marriage is not arraged then the foundation of that kind of marriage is 'love'; that is not true in all cases. You can marry someone without an arranged marriage and still have the foundation of finanical, social or astrological interests!! A non-arranged marriage doesn't gurantee foundation of love.

to the contrary, I would say that most arranged marriages in india develop into 'love' as half of the life partners spend understanding the other partner and the other half 'loving' him or her! Whereas, the marriage that is not arranged has though seemingly could have 'love' as the foundation most often it is just 'lust' and not real love and ends up in divorce often.

Arjuna
12 November 2006, 07:10 PM
Namaste Satay,


namaste,
I see your point though not sure I entirely agree with you on 'love'. Love is a funny thing. You are implying that if a marriage is not arraged then the foundation of that kind of marriage is 'love'; that is not true in all cases. You can marry someone without an arranged marriage and still have the foundation of finanical, social or astrological interests!! A non-arranged marriage doesn't gurantee foundation of love.

Of course U are right here. The only thing is that if arranged marriage system is established, there remains almost no chance for love-marriage. That is why it should not exist.
I deem there may not exist any reason for marriage apart from love. Otherwise it simply makes no sense.


to the contrary, I would say that most arranged marriages in india develop into 'love' as half of the life partners spend understanding the other partner and the other half 'loving' him or her! Whereas, the marriage that is not arranged has though seemingly could have 'love' as the foundation most often it is just 'lust' and not real love and ends up in divorce often.

That is called "getting used to" and not "love". If one is forcefully put into a box-room and locked there, after some years he may get used to it and even "enjoy" such condition. But that doesn't mean it is proper and good!
Perhaps such kind of marriage MAY result in nice friendship — if both partners are rather advanced. However in this case it is likely to result in divorce — as soon as one partner meets his/her beloved (and all chances for that are there).

Regarding divorce, i see it in a quite opposite way. When real love is there at the beginning, but in a course of time it goes away (why this happens is another matter — reasons may be different), divorce is likely to happen — for man & woman KNOW what is love and see that without love marriage is futile. But when marriage was farce from the very beginning (like in arranged marriage case), nothing changes. Dead person cannot die and plastic flowers cannot wither ;).

I do not imply that divorce is good or inevitable. But it indeed MAY occur. And there is no problem about that. But with arranged marriage there is a problem. If see it clearly, it is worse than prostitution...

We are not free to choose our parents and children (only have/not have), but we have to be free in choosing a life-partner. "Choosing" doesn't mean as on a market, but the Act of "Love under Will".

saidevo
12 November 2006, 09:04 PM
Arranged marriage is solely karma-dependent thing and thus anti-spiritual.

I deem there may not exist any reason for marriage apart from love. Otherwise it simply makes no sense.

But with arranged marriage there is a problem. If see it clearly, it is worse than prostitution...


If an arranged marriage is 'anti-spiritual', in what way a love marriage is not? The whole purpose of marriage is spiritual: to enable the waiting souls to get reincarnated. Procreation is the primary object of a marriage, and a marriage is truly consummated only where it involves offsprings.

The kind of love that exists in a love marriage is more lust than actual love. Western concepts and practices such as 'Going steady', 'living with each other'(without marriage) that are associated with love marriages are abominable.

Love does not happen overnight. Love is primarily concern and respect for each other. And true love does not just stop with the couple that is planning to get married, but makes allowances for the other members of the family on both sides. While spiritual love is altruistic, conjugal love is often carnal, selfish and limited to the couple. Conjugal love is biologically just an influx of estrogen and emotionally just an influx of selfish concern.

Arranged marriages unite the families. Love marriges divide them.

How many of the arranged marriages have failed vis-a-vis love marriages? In an arranged marriage system, the parents of both families are supposed know each other, and know what is best for their offspring. This is still the case in the rural areas, though it has degenerated into marriage bureaus and matrimon(e)y services in urban areas, which is the reason for the problems of harassment for dowry after marriage. In any case, the percentage of failure of arranged marriages is much less than that of love marriages.

If an arranged marriage fails, everybody makes a hue and cry, the media and the law agencies are involved and wide publicity is given. If a love marriage fails, such publicity is not given and nobody is taken to task.

In love marriages the only concern is between the couple, and parents are relegated to the background or totally ignored. It is difficult to believe that the involved young couple are mature enough to decide their future by becoming life partners under a bond of supposed love. Real love is certainly a rarity in love marriages, whether before or after. The worse case is love marriage across caste, creed and religion.

Love marriages did exist in the form of ghandarva vivaham in the Indian society, but it included the consent of the parents. The western concept of love marriage has nothing spiritual about it. It is the result of carnal attraction that has today degenerated into marriage between the same sex (horrible!) and divorced couples seeking remarriage, even when they have children ('Your children and my children are playing with our children!'). The visual, print and elecronic media is catering to the cultivation of such practices and the Indian youth are falling prey to these vultures.

As a system, the arranged marriage is definitely much better than the love marriage, because it is based on personal and social wisdom rather than calf love. That any social, religious or spiritual system has degenerated into a farce in this age of Kali Yuga is a different issue.

Arjuna
13 November 2006, 07:51 AM
Namaste,


If an arranged marriage is 'anti-spiritual', in what way a love marriage is not? The whole purpose of marriage is spiritual: to enable the waiting souls to get reincarnated. Procreation is the primary object of a marriage, and a marriage is truly consummated only where it involves offsprings.

Firstly, i do not accept this view. Marriage is primarily a union of man and woman for the sake of God. Procreation is only an aspect of it (usually indeed important — but not necessary).
Secondly, even for children it is most unhealthy (psycologically and spiritually) if parents are not loving each other. I cannot understand why U fail to consider this.


The kind of love that exists in a love marriage is more lust than actual love. Western concepts and practices such as 'Going steady', 'living with each other'(without marriage) that are associated with love marriages are abominable.

I agree that in many cases love is not total Prema (which however includes lust as its aspect too) but more lust. But that is better than arranged marriage, since in that case EVEN KAMA is absent. Love marriage may not be spiritual union, but at least some presence of Divine is there. Arranged marriage is bogus thing from the very starting point.


Love does not happen overnight.

And it may or may not happen at all. That is why before getting married both partners have to be sure it is Love and not momentary attraction. And it is impossible to "make love" with training or adjusting. Arranged marriage 99% sure would result in nothing good, since its beginning was lie.

Imagine one takes same attitude towards accepting a Guru. One's parents decide who should be his Guru, and then for years he struggles to get adjusted to this alien fellow, whom one is supposed to be devoted! This gonna be profanation of the idea of studying with a Guru. In the same way, arranged marriage is not only a hipocrisy, but actual sin against man, woman and their to be children.


Love is primarily concern and respect for each other.

NO. Love is not that. To respect someone is not the reason to live with him/her and moreover sexually! Concern and respect is nice and proper, but it is supposed to be normal attitude to every human being, or at least those whom one is friendly with.


And true love does not just stop with the couple that is planning to get married, but makes allowances for the other members of the family on both sides.

In a case of love marriage the probability of normal mutual relationships between two families is not less than in a case of arranged marriage. However this must never be a motive — otherwise one wastes his/her life just to please others.


While spiritual love is altruistic, conjugal love is often carnal, selfish and limited to the couple. Conjugal love is biologically just an influx of estrogen and emotionally just an influx of selfish concern.

Ur view is mistaken ;).

What many people consider to be spiritual love, is usually much more selfish and limited. Many "devotees" "love God" in order to get benefit from Him, be it material benefit or "spiritual". This is nothing else than lobha, greed. But people call it "bhakti" or "puja". And not only selfish, it is limited to "couple". When one Tamil "devotee" of Shiva saw that his wife tasted food which was prepared for offering, he killed her. Is that not limitation? He never cared to see Shiva in those around him... And this dude is regarded as a "saint", Nayanar!

On the other hand, conjugal love is more likely to be spiritual. Since it is difficult to pretend here — if love is laching, this becomes evident sooner or later. While it is indeed easy to imagine U love Krishna, Kali or Jesus, at the same time hating people, despising women or "pashus" etc.


How many of the arranged marriages have failed vis-a-vis love marriages? In an arranged marriage system, the parents of both families are supposed know each other, and know what is best for their offspring.

No one can decide this matter for any one else. If parents are more aged it doesn't make them automatically more wise. For a person believing in karma and reincarnation saying what U've said is really queer. Moreover, regardless of comparing intellectual and spiritual levels of parents and children (which may differ in any way), it is simply wrong to force one's child to "love" somebody unknown.

One has to be him/herself responsible for his/her choice of beloved and Guru. These things cannot be decided by others.


In any case, the percentage of failure of arranged marriages is much less than that of love marriages.

Yes, because arranged marriage is bogus and fraud from its initial point. So there is nothing to "fail". A pashu cannot fall spiritually, for he was never elevated into Spirit.


If an arranged marriage fails, everybody makes a hue and cry, the media and the law agencies are involved and wide publicity is given. If a love marriage fails, such publicity is not given and nobody is taken to task.

Arranged marriage is a business and a method to keep people in tamas. That is why there are those interested in it to go on. And they make hue and cry when their dirty business gets shattered.


In love marriages the only concern is between the couple, and parents are relegated to the background or totally ignored. It is difficult to believe that the involved young couple are mature enough to decide their future by becoming life partners under a bond of supposed love.

People aren't normally supposed to get married at 15 or even 20. When one gets mature enough in his/her own eyes, he/she can marry.
With arranged marriages we can see ugly customs of weddings of not only young kids but even unborn children! At least in 19 century these are reports of such non-sense, hopefully nowadays that stopped.


The worse case is love marriage across caste, creed and religion.

The worst case is marriage devoid of love and even passion. Nothing else.


Love marriages did exist in the form of ghandarva vivaham in the Indian society, but it included the consent of the parents. The western concept of love marriage has nothing spiritual about it.

Parents has no spiritual right to decide for MATURE children. And while children are immature no marriage should take place.
Arranged marriage is a social bond and spiritual obstacle, love marriage is one's free choice and a chance for spiritual upliftment.


As a system, the arranged marriage is definitely much better than the love marriage, because it is based on personal and social wisdom rather than calf love.

It is based on financial and social interests. Wisdom has nothing to do with "arranging love"! Love is a gift from God. When it is there, marriage is natural result. Otherwise, devoid of love, it is a sad mockery.

sm78
14 November 2006, 06:06 AM
Hi Arjuna,

You seem to be going by the openion that people who get married in an arranged environment will not fall in love. This must be an entirely predujiced openion. I have always seen the contrary.

When marriage is arranged with view of compatibility to 2 persons who are ready to
share a future life together it definitely should blossom into a great love marriage.
Moreover with a serious decesion in hand the love has to be a true love.

Love without commitment is just pure pleasure. Nothing wrong with that on a individual basis, but nothing good or divine about it either. It's actually just the sort of thing animals indulge in everyday. Nothing wrong in staying as an animal, only it's not the best example to put forward in society.

Arranged marriage these days generally happen with the concent of all parties involved, most importantly the marrying couple. The compatibility is the key issue. The sytem is not created to fullfill the greedy inlaws but to minimize sexual promiscuity before marriage, which is a great thing.

Every system can be abused and arranged marriage has been to a great extent where dowry, social status and openions of others played the major role and the compatibility of the couple which should be the primary thing gets sidelined.

But if copatibility of the couple is the only criterion of an arranged marriage which ideally should be, then it is a much better system than any other. Unless ofcourse sexual promiscuity and "love" without commitment are labelled as true love.

sm78
14 November 2006, 06:55 AM
Karma is a concept of mind.
So is the human love. Ok there are some harmones invoved too. ;)

Unless you are very dogmatic about it ...

Arjuna
14 November 2006, 08:23 AM
Greetings,


Hi Arjuna,
You seem to be going by the openion that people who get married in an arranged environment will not fall in love. This must be an entirely predujiced openion. I have always seen the contrary.
When marriage is arranged with view of compatibility to 2 persons who are ready to
share a future life together it definitely should blossom into a great love marriage.
Moreover with a serious decesion in hand the love has to be a true love.

If the only point is mutual compatibility of partners as U say, what is to be arranged there? What is the difference between free choice and such marriage U describe? And what is the need to "arrange" anything for compatibility to take place?

U seem to be talking of some theoretical ideal which never took place actually. I have many Indian friends and know pretty well what this "wonderful" system is worth of. In normal case of love marriage there are equal probabilities for total and true commitment to each other, same chance for families to share. The difference is that when marriage is free decision of partners, it is a responsible and indeed human act. But while decided by third party, marriage becomes forced and hypocrite game.


Love without commitment is just pure pleasure. Nothing wrong with that on a individual basis, but nothing good or divine about it either. It's actually just the sort of thing animals indulge in everyday. Nothing wrong in staying as an animal, only it's not the best example to put forward in society.

This is a popular misconception ;).

Animal do not fall in love, neither they are able to enjoy as humans do. Animals have sexual instinct aimed at procreation solely. That is why "sex for procreation only" is indeed animalistic view. Sex for pleasure is human level. Sex as an expression of love is Divine.


Arranged marriage these days generally happen with the concent of all parties involved, most importantly the marrying couple. The compatibility is the key issue. The sytem is not created to fullfill the greedy inlaws but to minimize sexual promiscuity before marriage, which is a great thing.

I do not see how this can minimize sexual promiscuity in any way. I see how this system may encourage homosexualism, which it indeed does. Both in India and muslim countries.
The more restrictions society puts upon sexual sphere, the more perversions and agression develop.


But if copatibility of the couple is the only criterion of an arranged marriage which ideally should be, then it is a much better system than any other. Unless ofcourse sexual promiscuity and "love" without commitment are labelled as true love.

Compatibility of partners necessarily implies sexual compatibility as well. Without certain degree of intimacy one cannot be sure that some person suits him/her. Sexual relationships must come first and then only marriage — when both partners are really sure about their decision.

I in no way promote promiscuity of any kind. But love has to be free from any social considerations. Sex should happen only when love is there, and same true with marriage. When love is lacking, neither sexual relationships nor marriage do any good.

Arjuna
14 November 2006, 08:24 AM
So is the human love. Ok there are some harmones invoved too. ;)

Unless you are very dogmatic about it ...

Human love is a fact of life. But "some hormones" is Ur concept of interpreting it ;)...

satay
14 November 2006, 11:34 AM
namaste Arjun,

From your posts it is evident that you don't know anything about "arranged marriages" and have some convoluted opinions about it based on (?) I am not sure what.

I am not sure if I can be of any help to you in understanding this social norm of Indians or even if it is relevant for you to understand it to be a hindu..not sure...

I would love to continue but not sure exactly what your understanding of this issue is based on. Perhaps you can ask some questions about arrange marriage tradition that the more knowledgeable members can answer to help you understand it better.

Or why don't you start a thread by telling us what your understanding of an 'arranged marriage' is. It will help if you give us the context and background of your opinions and experiences.

I would like to say that your comparisons of this tradition to prostution are so ridiculous that I can't even stop shaking my head! However, I imagine that most non-indians have similar opinions of this tradition as yours so it's an important issue...Please open another thread and let's it discuss properly and throughly (time permitting).

Arjuna
14 November 2006, 03:34 PM
namaste Arjun,

Greetings, Satay!

I would be glad having Ur explanations of the matter first. If i am mistaken i admit that freely. Since U claim my view is wrong, please give the proper account of facts.
Then we may procede if be needed.

Arjuna
14 November 2006, 03:41 PM
If i am mistaken i admit that freely.

P. S. This refers to my [possibly incorrect] view of arranged marriage system nowadays. However i am totally sure that it is in any case unnecessary, since free will and love is that which is enough and complete in itself.

Love is the law, love under will.
A

sm78
15 November 2006, 01:27 AM
Human love is a fact of life. But "some hormones" is Ur concept of interpreting it ;)...
:) excellent. it's not easy to pull your leg. harmones and humour aside ...

But I was refering what medha rishi says in slokas 46 to 55 of Sri Sri Chandi. Isin't love for a person, including the conjugal love between a man and a woman, sustained by cognition of sensual perceptions? I love my mother. Isin't it because I have been bought up by her since I was in her womb and we have exchanged many sensations between us? Isin't Maithun serves the same purpose in a love between a man and a woman? The human love and attachment is surely created in mind as sensory experience gets cognized into other emotions.

But "Prema" is surely a divine quality which comes from Atman Or God directly. Human love between a man and a woman is one place where it gets expressed. It also gets expressed in the love I feel for stray Dogs or love for my country.

What I'm driving at is that a man who is deeply in love with a woman doesn't necessatily mean he has greater "prema" than the unlucky chap who never found love.

Sorry for digressing.

sm78
15 November 2006, 03:06 AM
Greetings,



If the only point is mutual compatibility of partners as U say, what is to be arranged there? What is the difference between free choice and such marriage U describe? And what is the need to "arrange" anything for compatibility to take place?

U seem to be talking of some theoretical ideal which never took place actually. I have many Indian friends and know pretty well what this "wonderful" system is worth of. In normal case of love marriage there are equal probabilities for total and true commitment to each other, same chance for families to share. The difference is that when marriage is free decision of partners, it is a responsible and indeed human act. But while decided by third party, marriage becomes forced and hypocrite game.



This is a popular misconception ;).

Animal do not fall in love, neither they are able to enjoy as humans do. Animals have sexual instinct aimed at procreation solely. That is why "sex for procreation only" is indeed animalistic view. Sex for pleasure is human level. Sex as an expression of love is Divine.



I do not see how this can minimize sexual promiscuity in any way. I see how this system may encourage homosexualism, which it indeed does. Both in India and muslim countries.
The more restrictions society puts upon sexual sphere, the more perversions and agression develop.



Compatibility of partners necessarily implies sexual compatibility as well. Without certain degree of intimacy one cannot be sure that some person suits him/her. Sexual relationships must come first and then only marriage — when both partners are really sure about their decision.

I in no way promote promiscuity of any kind. But love has to be free from any social considerations. Sex should happen only when love is there, and same true with marriage. When love is lacking, neither sexual relationships nor marriage do any good.

I agree with u to some extent. But I'm not intellegent enough to guess which system makes more sense for society as a whole. Rules are meant for the society in general. The more spiritually evolved can live by his own will (svecchachara) and cause no disruption. I'm not sure of your blanket idsapproval of arranged marriage. The other option too must have many pitfalls for society.

Arjuna
15 November 2006, 03:31 AM
I agree with u to some extent. But I'm not intellegent enough to guess which system makes more sense for society as a whole. Rules are meant for the society in general. The more spiritually evolved can live by his own will (svecchachara) and cause no disruption. I'm not sure of your blanket idsapproval of arranged marriage. The other option too must have many pitfalls for society.

There is no ideal social system, since human being is not the ideal one :D.

But in any case reasonable freedom is preferable to tyranny and repression, be it of social or religious kind. The worst case we can see in example of some muslim countries, where this came to a point of physical danger.

Moreover, i see the even of marriage similar to accepting a Guru. This is sacred and personal matter in which no one else apart from 2 persons involved can get.

Arjuna
15 November 2006, 03:51 AM
Greetings,


:) excellent. it's not easy to pull your leg. harmones and humour aside ...
But I was refering what medha rishi says in slokas 46 to 55 of Sri Sri Chandi. Isin't love for a person, including the conjugal love between a man and a woman, sustained by cognition of sensual perceptions? I love my mother. Isin't it because I have been bought up by her since I was in her womb and we have exchanged many sensations between us? Isin't Maithun serves the same purpose in a love between a man and a woman? The human love and attachment is surely created in mind as sensory experience gets cognized into other emotions.

Of course perception takes place as in every act. In the context of subject and object duality perception is inevitable thing. This is not only in the case of conjugal love, but in the case of bhakti and even mystical jnana. When one perceives, it means there is some kind of duality.

But this doesn't mean this is necessarily something low. All perception is but Consciousness alone. When any cognitive act is viewed as Spanda (pulsation of Consciousness, Atman), it is called Liberation. Thus conjugal love in no way contradicts the highest Realisation, but provides a very good chance for it. As does any strong and total feeling.


But "Prema" is surely a divine quality which comes from Atman Or God directly. Human love between a man and a woman is one place where it gets expressed. It also gets expressed in the love I feel for stray Dogs or love for my country.

Prema "comes from" Atman or God, verily. But its expressions on level of relativity aren't equal. Love for beloved woman/man and for Guru is not same as love to a pet or a fellow in univercity. It is supposed that the whole emanation [of Consciousness] be embraced by love & ecstacy (condition termed in Shaivism as lokAnanda), but there are still gradation of love.
Love between man and woman is the highest expression of Prema, though of course not the only one. When they come to realise their true identities of Shiva & Shakti, their union itself is Paramapada.


What I'm driving at is that a man who is deeply in love with a woman doesn't necessatily mean he has greater "prema" than the unlucky chap who never found love.

The one truely in love with a woman verily is in great Prema. This is not "achievement", but exceptional Grace of God (shakti-nipAta)

sm78
18 November 2006, 02:38 AM
Greetings to u ...


But this doesn't mean this is necessarily something low. All perception is but Consciousness alone. When any cognitive act is viewed as Spanda (pulsation of Consciousness, Atman), it is called Liberation. Thus conjugal love in no way contradicts the highest Realisation, but provides a very good chance for it. As does any strong and total feeling.

Yes, but must be aware of these congitive acts are being created, sustained and the destroyed ~ just like any other spanda.

It is true that any total feeling through samadhi can take us to the level of spandas...thus freeing us from seeing things as mere external manifestations, giving liberation, taking away the need to be born.


The one truely in love with a woman verily is in great Prema. This is not "achievement", but exceptional Grace of God (shakti-nipAta)
True.

But I also think that the path of the urdha-reta is as much a blessing and grace to those who are capable to follow it. It is sustained on peace another quality that comes directly from God. But is seems to quite beyond capabilty of ordinary mortals of this age. Pure Peace visits us perhaves only in the deepest sleep, a thing we don't remember and perhaves in some rare fleeting moments when the mind is suddenly free.

Sudarshan
18 November 2006, 03:35 AM
Sri Subramunia Swami mights have held this kind of opinion, but so what? If one is saint or Siddha it doesn't mean that every his opinion is the ultimate truth. In any case i think that in such matter as marriage one has to rely only on his own will. And not on whatever opinions of scriptures or masters.

I see arranged marriage as utmostly irresponsible thing. It may be easy to live in such a way like an animal, when every decision is taken by others - including choice of a life-partner. But is this what human life is meant for? Indeed, it is better to live as sannyasi than to stay with woman/man whom U love not. Arranged marriage is in 90% of cases a hypocricy and lie. This can result in no good either in spiritual sense or in sense of bringing up kids in a proper manner. It may happen that in insignificant minority of cases arranged marriage turns into true love relatonships. But very irresponsible to rely on such possibility...

It is always needed to separate social norms of some society which got mixed into scriptures from religion per se. Arranged marriage is an ugly custom of male-dominated societies. It has to be totally stopped.

On what basis do people "love" and marry? Love marriage usually springs out of "love at first sight" which could best be called as infatuation. Still I agree that there are genuine love marriages resulting from long years of companionship. USA has a 50% divorce rate, so much for the sanctity of love marriages. Freedom to change partners like clothes is love marriage? - that should be spiritually very useful. What does a person do when he is rejected? He goes behind another...true love indeed. One of my friend's grandma who was on a trip to the US was asked if she did not find living with same person for 50 years boring. The lady who asked this question "loved" and married thrice just for a change. I could not help laughing my heads off when I heard this.:)

Arranged marriages can be misused like any other thing. But they serve many advantages. They rarely end in divorce. Even if the couple have issues, the entire family will cooperate to resolve it. You obviously do not know much of Hindu families and how much love and affection there is in many families - all arranged ones. There is great security and peace in arranged marriages if used properly. If you do not get what you dream of, be happy with what you get - this is a valuable spiritual instruction. Learning to adjust to live with people who did not meet your expectations is a tapasya. This happens in love marriages too as the divorce rates indicate.

satay
18 November 2006, 11:45 AM
Admin Note:
namaste,
As suggested earlier, please open a new thread to discuss 'Arranged Marriages'. The messages being posted on this thread have nothing to do with the OP.

Thanks,