do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?

[Amulya]

Do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?

[satay]

Namaskar,
No, you don't.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

Satay's right, but most or many are.

Aum Namasivaya

[ScottMalaysia]

Many Hindus aren't vegetarian. My wife's family are Malaysian Hindus of South Indian descent, and they eat meat - just not beef. However, more devout South Indian Hindus (like my wife's grandfather) will eat only vegetarian food on Fridays. Other Hindus observe vegetarianism in certain months, according to a Hindu classmate of mine (who is of Gujarati descent). Vegetarianism is also observed for sixteen days after the death of a relative.

There are also Hindus who practice ritualistic animal sacrifice. Many of these sacrifices are offered to Mother Kali, but there are also local village deities to whom this is practiced as well. Examples are the South Indian demigods Madurai Veeran and Karuppu Sami. Before my wife and I left Malaysia, we went with her family to a well-known temple near the city of Ipoh. I asked my wife's grandfather why the Madurai Veeran shrine was so far away from the rest of the temple. He told me it was because they sacrifice goats there.

However, I am firmly opposed to animal sacrifice, as are many Hindus.

You don't have to be vegetarian to be a Hindu, but it's better to be a vegetarian. You accrue a huge amount of karma through eating meat and this may very well lead to you taking birth in an animal body in your next life. Manu Smriti (the Hindu law code) says that one who buys meat, one who cuts it up and one who eats it are all considered to be killers of the animal.

[NetiNeti]

There are some that regard total vegetarianism as part of ahimsa (non-violence) and therefore needed for spiritual growth. On a personal level (therefore my opinion only) one must be a vegetarian to achieve liberation. I am no killer, therefore I do not kill animals or have others do it for me. Krishna outlines what he eats in the Gita, and I follow that example. I am a being that no creature needs to fear. I subside on plant life and pose no threat to any creature, human or non-human, that has the same flame of Atman that I do. Keep in mind that this is my opinion only, and many Hindus do eat flesh.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté




In the Anusasana Parva, section CXV ( or section 115) of the Mahābhārata , Yudhiṣṭhira asks Bhīṣma a few questions.
He says, you ( Bhīṣma) have informed me many times that the abstention from injury is the highest religion. Yet in sraddhas, however, that are performed in honour of the Pitris, persons for their own good should make offerings of diverse kinds of meat.

How can meat be procured without slaying a living creature?
What are the faults one incurs by eating meat?
What are the demerits one incurs who eats meat by killing a living creature? Or of him who eats meat buying it from others?Bhīṣma then says, Listen to me O' scion of the Kuru race, what the merit is that attaches to the abstention from meat.

Those high souled persons who desire beauty, faultlessness of limbs, long life, understanding, mental and physical strength, and memory should abstain from acts of injury.
The merit by a person with steadfastness of vow adores the deities every month in horse sacrifices is equal to him that discards honey and meat.
The seven rishis, the Valakhilyasm and the rishis that drink the rays of the sun applaud the abstention from meat.
Bhīṣma continues and says, Narada muni has said that the man who wishes to increase his own flesh by eating the flesh of other creatures meets with calamity.
The man who has eaten meat then gives it up acquires merit by such an act that is so great that a study of all the vedas or a performance of all the sacrifices cannot bestow its like ( or its equal).
The period of life is shortened of persons who slaughter living creatures or cause them to be slaughtered ( i.e. demand for meat).
One should never eat meat of animals not dedicated in sacrifices and that are slain for no reason.praṇām

[Ramakrishna]

Being vegetarian is not necessary to be a Hindu, but as Scott said, it is better to be vegetarian. Me, my father, and one of my brothers are all vegetarian. My mother and my other brother eat meat, but they do not eat beef. Personally, I would recommend being a vegetarian as you would more closely adhere to the principles of Hinduism and you would become closer to God. However, it is not necessary to be vegetarian.

[orlando]

Do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?

To be a vaishnava the answer is Yes!

[kallol]

A few notes :

1. The SD is more about the state of mind and thus the knowledge of SD came long before the derivations were done to the level of the activities.

2. SD is not an exclusive philosophy as it deals only with mind thus is independent of body, time, society and space.

3. Before the influence of buddhism and jainism, there are plenty of stories of hunting, NV, etc.

4. We do not know how much is the influence of these 2 religions on the written scriptures.

5. Ramakrishna used to take fish and all in Bengal (except a few) take NV. Even Vivekananda took meat and Ramakrishna did not stop. He said that at the state of mind what Vivekananda reached it does not matter. But he did not allow other disciples to take meat.

6. Vegeterianism is proposed as a derivation of guiding the people in the spiritual path as it serves many purposes.

a. Unnecessary killing of animals and destroying ecosystem

b. Developing respect for the ecology

c. Slowing down the mind's desires and state and thus helping one to focus better

d. Getting rid of the side efects of eating meat.

As Hinduism is an all encompassing philosophy, it took care of the total ecology and the synergy.

But again vegeterianism is not must and have been put by Manu also.

That way it is difficult to define the level we should go for ensuring vegeterianism.

Jain is one level, Buddhist another level, Vaishnavas another, etc.

Even, curd, fermentated food (dosa, idly, etc) have lots of living organisms with mind. And we put all of them to the stomach acid and kill.

Is it that we should limit vegeterianism to the animals we can see only ?

What is the size limit for the animals ?

Love and best wishes

[NetiNeti]

You don't have to be vegetarian to be Hindu.

You DO have to be a vegetarian to not be a murderer though. Killing life is killing life, plain and simple.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

We may do and say anything we want, that does not stop us Being Hindu but is it according to dharma, that is the question to ask, is it in line with Yam and Niyam of yoga.

What does Shastra say? our Shastra says in no uncertain terms that jivo jivasya jivanam meaning one living entity is food for another, but that all mighty God has given us power to discriminate, that is what separate us from other animals.

I certainly think meat eating is detrimental in our quest for spiritual life, but don’t take my word for it. what does Shastra say?

Ahimsa and even more potent is daya or Karuna (compassion) are part of Niyam or pillars of Hindu dharma. On this we have to draw our on conclusion how to imbibe these law in our life,to rely on mind or mind levels then there is a danger a real danger because mind has a habit of finding an excuse for just about anything.

What does Shastra say?

Satvik rajsik and tamsik are three gunas we are all bound by. Suppress the rajsik and tamsik Satvik will dominate and so on, for those who are interested can read Gita chapter 17, here food is described in three different mode meat would certainly fall in Tamsik mode.

And that action performed in ignorance and delusion without consideration of future bondage or consequences, which inflicts injury and is impractical, is said to be action in the mode of ignorance. 18.25BG

We pray.

Peaceful be the earth, peaceful the ether, peaceful heaven, peaceful the waters, peaceful the herbs, peaceful the trees. May all Gods bring me peace. May there be peace through these invocations of peace. With these invocations of peace which appease everything, I render peaceful whatever here is terrible, whatever here is cruel, whatever here is sinful. Let it become auspicious, let everything be beneficial to us.
Atharva Veda Samhita 10. 191. 4

Those noble souls who practice meditation and other yogic ways, who are ever careful about all beings, who protect all animals, are the ones who are actually serious about spiritual practices.
Atharva Veda Samhita 19.48.5. FS, 90

Now the actual prohibition,

Hindu scripture speaks clearly and forcefully on no killing and vegetarianism. In the ancient Rig Veda, we read: "O vegetable, be succulent, wholesome, strengthening; and thus, body, be fully grown." The Yajur Veda summarily dictates: "Do not injure the beings living on the earth, in the air and in the water Tirukural, a widely-read 2,000-year-old masterpiece of ethics, speaks of conscience: EM already spoke on it. There are many verses in the shastra if interested, I pick three.

One who partakes of human flesh, the flesh of a horse or of another animal, and deprives others of milk by slaughtering cows, O King, if such a fiend does not desist by other means, then you should not hesitate to punish such a person.
Rig Veda Samhita, 10.87.16, FS 90
　

Manu samhita
51. He who permits (the slaughter of an animal), he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells (meat), he who cooks it, he who serves it up, and he who eats it, (must all be considered as) the slayers (of the animal).
52. There is no greater sinner than that (man) who, though not worshipping the gods or the manes, seeks to increase (the bulk of) his own flesh by the flesh of other (beings).

Jai Shree Krishna

[Riverwolf]

I eat meat, just not beef, and I'm Hindu.

I do have a bit of a problem with the idea that you must be a vegetarian in order to not kill to eat, because plants are living beings that can be killed, as well. Heck, certain life forms are killed every time we breathe and bathe. Killing is how we fight of diseases. Killing others is simply how we survive.

But I would say that in order to fully live in accordance with the yamas and niyamas, vegetarianism must be followed. Sure, absolute and total 100% ahimsa is impossible to follow because of what I said earlier, but the common person must do his absolute best to not cause harm to others, and that requires vegetarianism.

[Sahasranama]

You have to do what you can, it's not possible to follow all rules from the shastras.

I am a vegetarian, but I could not follow the rules from the shastras not to eat certain foods on certain tithies. There is a whole list of foods not to be eaten during certain days of lunar month.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

I still think, although it would be hard to verify, that British and European influence is one of the main reasons many Hindus have converted to a meat eating diet. The British ridiculed all aspects of our faith, including 'cow worship' etc. There is this really weird vibration and oxymoron I have seen regarding meat in some of my Indian and Sri Lankan friends. On one hand, they hide it, and feel so incredibly guilty, yet on the other hand, its like a physical addiction almost akin to tobacco. For some odd reason they have to live with this dichotomy of not being able to put into practice what they actually believe. Frankly, I don't understand it at all, or where it came from. Even on here we hear it. Almost like teenage revolt against the parent. Just do the opposite of what is suggested.

Any hints to better understanding of this phenomenon would be appreciated.

Aum Namasivaya

[ScottMalaysia]

Vannakkam:

I still think, although it would be hard to verify, that British and European influence is one of the main reasons many Hindus have converted to a meat eating diet.

Aum Namasivaya

Don't forget the Moghuls.

[NetiNeti]

I eat meat, just not beef, and I'm Hindu.

I do have a bit of a problem with the idea that you must be a vegetarian in order to not kill to eat, because plants are living beings that can be killed, as well. Heck, certain life forms are killed every time we breathe and bathe. Killing is how we fight of diseases. Killing others is simply how we survive.

But I would say that in order to fully live in accordance with the yamas and niyamas, vegetarianism must be followed. Sure, absolute and total 100% ahimsa is impossible to follow because of what I said earlier, but the common person must do his absolute best to not cause harm to others, and that requires vegetarianism.

I'm not surprised by your view. Most flesh-eaters have a problem with the idea of vegetarianism. The "plants are alive" counter-point is old and trite. Plants don't defend their young and run from danger. Sure, I hear rubbish about plants enjoying nice music and the like but in the end they are not sentient. Killing and destroying plants for no reason is himsa, but so is punching a wall. Eating plants is the best and easiest way to avoid killing sentient life.

You seem to advocate killing in your post as though being acceptable because it is the way of nature. You wouldn't want to be killed would you? Neither do chickens, pigs and other beasts of burden. You have the ability to WANT to live. So do all sentient animals. Plants do not have wants, desires, thoughts or any ideas about life and death.

When I hear people justify flesh eating I get a few thoughts in my head.

1) They enjoy it and are therefore attached to it. People justify all sorts of dumb stuff (drugs, alcohol, illicit sex, nuclear bombs) because doing so suits them. Stopping living for yourself and something as small as an appetite.

2) They just don't get mercy. People who deny vegetarianism are probably, even if unseen, very violent people. How else can one justify the murder and torture of animals. We aren't dumb, we know what happens to them. Angels don't come kiss them to death in their beds. These animals are ripped to pieces like fabric. Give me a break, there is no justification. This is the only thing in the world that makes me say "I'm right and you are wrong"

3) They don't understand Atman and that all animals are our brothers. They view animals as commodities, just like slave owners saw their slaves. Shame!

Please have mercy on all creatures. Please allow to live and let live. Please do not treat animals like machines. Please do not kill Gods beautiful creatures. Please stop putting yourself before other creatures. These lives aren't just animals, they are parents to other animals, they have family just like us. They aren't just animals, they are like us, someone with Atman.

Consider someone else, stop consuming animals!

[Sahasranama]

Vannakkam:

I still think, although it would be hard to verify, that British and European influence is one of the main reasons many Hindus have converted to a meat eating diet. The British ridiculed all aspects of our faith, including 'cow worship' etc. There is this really weird vibration and oxymoron I have seen regarding meat in some of my Indian and Sri Lankan friends. On one hand, they hide it, and feel so incredibly guilty, yet on the other hand, its like a physical addiction almost akin to tobacco. For some odd reason they have to live with this dichotomy of not being able to put into practice what they actually believe. Frankly, I don't understand it at all, or where it came from. Even on here we hear it. Almost like teenage revolt against the parent. Just do the opposite of what is suggested.

Any hints to better understanding of this phenomenon would be appreciated.

Aum Namasivaya

Many Hindus are vegetarian for two or three days or even just one day of the week to make themselves feel good about themselves. Then on the other days they feast on meat like they have been fasting for months. I don't know if it's the taste of the meat or the feeling of deprivation they get when excluding meat. They have become codependent on meat consumption, they can't really part from it.

[kallol]

The clarity is required to discuss on this subject :

1. Whether we as Hindu support killing of animals ?

The answer is NO. And it is not limited to Hindus only.

2. Whether Vegeterianism is must to be a Hindu ?

Again the answer in NO. As SD is not ant exclusive philosophy.

The NV practice can slow down spiritual growth but does not mean he becomes devoid of SD knowledge.

Again by Manu's 56th line NV is not a sin.

So we need to bring in the clarity what we are discussing on.

Love and best wishes

[Sahasranama]

do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?

The clear answer is no, there's no debate.

[Eastern Mind]

Many Hindus are vegetarian for two or three days or even just one day of the week to make themselves feel good about themselves. Then on the other days they feast on meat like they have been fasting for months. I don't know if it's the taste of the meat or the feeling of deprivation they get when excluding meat. They have become codependent on meat consumption, they can't really part from it.

Vannakkam Sahsranama: I don't know either. Here is an example. A temple is undergoing sort of a manager crisis. The current manager is on vacation sometimes for long periods, and a new one is needed to replace him. There is one fellow who by any standards would be excellent ... well organised, friendly, gets along with everyone etc. 95% the qualities a temple would want. One problem ... meat.

Back when I became vegetarian, (rural farming Alberta wasn't exactly veggie friendly, if even veggie aware, other than Mother's huge garden) it was an experiment for one month. I never looked back. So here's an imaginary conversation. Always a sheepish answer.

Can't you try it for a week? See what happens? .... No.
Do you notice any difference physically when you eat meat? ... No.
So what is it about flesh that is so enticing? ... I don't know?
Are you aware that scriptures are against it? .... Yes
I've been vegetarian for 40 years. Do I look unhealthy to you? ... No, you look very healthy.
Why do you always seem to want to leave the temple early? ... I need my meat.
How about fake meat? There's a new store right on the way home where you can buy Chinese fake meat. It tastes just like the real thing. Have you ever tried that? ... No.

So clearly its like someone came down and restructured the emotional side of the brain so powerfully that it overwhelms all logic.

Aum Namasivaya

[Riverwolf]

I'm not surprised by your view. Most flesh-eaters have a problem with the idea of vegetarianism.

I don't fall under that "most". I'm working on being a vegetarian, but I can't right now.


The "plants are alive" counter-point is old and trite. Plants don't defend their young and run from danger. Sure, I hear rubbish about plants enjoying nice music and the like but in the end they are not sentient. Killing and destroying plants for no reason is himsa, but so is punching a wall. Eating plants is the best and easiest way to avoid killing sentient life.

To me, life is life, sentient or not.


You seem to advocate killing in your post as though being acceptable because it is the way of nature. You wouldn't want to be killed would you?

I'd defend myself if a tiger wanted to eat me, but I wouldn't bear a grudge against it. After all, for all I know, I could be the last chance for the mother to feed her child, and if she doesn't kill me, the child could die.

Through death there is life.


Neither do chickens, pigs and other beasts of burden. You have the ability to WANT to live. So do all sentient animals. Plants do not have wants, desires, thoughts or any ideas about life and death.

So? Life is life. Besides, from what I've understood, most animals don't know about their own mortality. We're among the only animals (if not the only; I'm not sure) who understands our own mortality.


When I hear people justify flesh eating I get a few thoughts in my head.

1) They enjoy it and are therefore attached to it. People justify all sorts of dumb stuff (drugs, alcohol, illicit sex, nuclear bombs) because doing so suits them. Stopping living for yourself and something as small as an appetite.

I eat meat because it's what's around. I don't buy my own food. When I eat at a restaurant, I order vegetarian.

Besides, with one exception (sushi), my favorite foods aren't meat. And even sushi can be vegetarian.


2) They just don't get mercy. People who deny vegetarianism are probably, even if unseen, very violent people. How else can one justify the murder and torture of animals. We aren't dumb, we know what happens to them. Angels don't come kiss them to death in their beds. These animals are ripped to pieces like fabric. Give me a break, there is no justification. This is the only thing in the world that makes me say "I'm right and you are wrong"

I understand mercy. I don't kill anything with my own hands. You seem to be stereotyping, here.


3) They don't understand Atman and that all animals are our brothers. They view animals as commodities, just like slave owners saw their slaves. Shame!

I'm not quite at that level yet. You're basically saying I should be ashamed for not having a PH.D., yet. I'm working on it, and the farther I get, the farther I get from eating meat. One day, I'll be able to go fully into vegetarianism.

The way my disposition works, I can't just jump into something and expect results; I'd dash right back out. I need to take it slowly.


Please have mercy on all creatures. Please allow to live and let live. Please do not treat animals like machines. Please do not kill Gods beautiful creatures. Please stop putting yourself before other creatures. These lives aren't just animals, they are parents to other animals, they have family just like us. They aren't just animals, they are like us, someone with Atman.

Consider someone else, stop consuming animals!

Atman, i.e., Brahman, is in all things. ALL things. The rocks, the wall, the CD that just stopped playing on my player. Therefore, it includes plants, bacteria, insects, my food, myself, everything. That's what I keep reading in the Scriptures, at least when dealing with advaita.

Sorry, but trying to play to my emotions just pushes me further away. More so if you try to guilt trip me. IMO, guilt tripping is just an underhanded way to get someone to agree with you.

According to both science and spirituality, plants are alive. Therefore, they can be killed. Sentience has nothing to do with it.

You're not my guru, and you don't know me personally. Therefore, you are in no position to judge me or instruct me.

[Riverwolf]

Many Hindus are vegetarian for two or three days or even just one day of the week to make themselves feel good about themselves. Then on the other days they feast on meat like they have been fasting for months. I don't know if it's the taste of the meat or the feeling of deprivation they get when excluding meat. They have become codependent on meat consumption, they can't really part from it.

Meat is one of the primary sources of protein for humans, and therefore of energy. It's addictive in the same way that caffeine is.

If someone decides to stop eating meat, they need to know other forms of protein, or they'll just go back to meat.

[NetiNeti]

1) So? Life is life. Besides, from what I've understood, most animals don't know about their own mortality. We're among the only animals (if not the only; I'm not sure) who understands our own mortality.

2) I understand mercy. I don't kill anything with my own hands. You seem to be stereotyping, here.


3) You're not my guru, and you don't know me personally. Therefore, you are in no position to judge me or instruct me.

1) We are aware of animals mortality, therefore the burden to preserve life is on us.

2) Paying someone to kill is as bad as killing. This is what purchasing flesh is.

3) I am not your guru. I do, however, have the right to advocate against the killing of animals just as I have the right to advocate against the killing of humans. I fight for their rights in the secular world as well as non-secular. I do feel I am in a position to judge though. I would not stand idle as my family or friends were killed. I would not stand by and let you be a victim of violence either. The fact of the matter is that animals are being killed and I will always speak up against those who say it is o.k.

This is not a personal attack. You are my spiritual brother. I just want people to see that compassion is crucial during the Kali-yuga.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Riverwolf:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information on nutrition. Protein is not a source of energy. It is a bone and muscle builder. Carbohydrate is the primary source of energy. The average meat eater gets about 300% of the daily protein requirement. Canada's Food guide recommends 6-8 servings of fruit/vegetables.

Meat is not at all addictive in the same way caffeine is. Withdrawal from caffeine includes headaches, restlessness, drowsiness, and general discomfort. There are no such physical withdrawal symptoms from meat.

I would encourage a browse on these things on line, so you don't just believe what I have said, and I shall do same. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63906295

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

Plants don't have cute faces and round human like eyes...

Perhaps they are rooted to the ground and can not run as other beings run when in danger. But some plants will respond to being cut upon...don't they?

Sap is the blood and it runs from a one hundred year old tree, just as it does from a 1 year old calf.

Some of the oldest beings on this rock are trees...with deep connected relationships to each other.

Everything we do impacts others...if we eat bread...the soil that was upturned to make the wheat killed the gophers and other living animals as the plow ran through the field....and the innocent children of the mouse as they lay in shallow burrows within the corn were taken as the field was turned over.

Just because you do not know of this fact, doesn't make their death any less.

Every person on this planet leaves an undeniable footprint...

I am not saying we should not try to avoid killing things and eating them. We should avoid killing things as best we can.

But, I am saying that every life...wether it has a face like ours or not...is precious.

I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.

I consume the grass which consumed the cow....which consumed the grass which consumed me.


We each have a price upon our head...an amount we cost to be here. Be it plants, small animals that are knocked dead by the plow...or even the large bovines which fill our planet with methane and eat the starving masses potential food/grain.

A recent United Nations report entitled Livestock's Long Shadow concludes that eating meat is "one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global". The report finds that eating meat causes almost 40 per cent more greenhouse-gas emissions than all the cars, trucks, ships and planes in the world combined.


Meat is a food choice, a last resort. The amount it takes to feed one cow to slaughter could feed many dozen starving people...and that cow itself can only feed few.

Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry.

Just do the best you can.<3

[NetiNeti]

P



1) I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.


2) Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry.

Just do the best you can.<3

1) Interesting point. I will ponder upon it
2) Well said and very accurate. Good for you, my friend!

[Riverwolf]

Plants don't have cute faces and round human like eyes...

Perhaps they are rooted to the ground and can not run as other beings run when in danger. But some plants will respond to being cut upon...don't they?

Sap is the blood and it runs from a one hundred year old tree, just as it does from a 1 year old calf.

Some of the oldest beings on this rock are trees...with deep connected relationships to each other.

Everything we do impacts others...if we eat bread...the soil that was upturned to make the wheat killed the gophers and other living animals as the plow ran through the field....and the innocent children of the mouse as they lay in shallow burrows within the corn were taken as the field was turned over.

Just because you do not know of this fact, doesn't make their death any less.

Every person on this planet leaves an undeniable footprint...

I am not saying we should not try to avoid killing things and eating them. We should avoid killing things as best we can.

But, I am saying that every life...wether it has a face like ours or not...is precious.

I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.

I consume the grass which consumed the cow....which consumed the grass which consumed me.


We each have a price upon our head...an amount we cost to be here. Be it plants, small animals that are knocked dead by the plow...or even the large bovines which fill our planet with methane and eat the starving masses potential food/grain.

A recent United Nations report entitled Livestock's Long Shadow concludes that eating meat is "one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global". The report finds that eating meat causes almost 40 per cent more greenhouse-gas emissions than all the cars, trucks, ships and planes in the world combined.


Meat is a food choice, a last resort. The amount it takes to feed one cow to slaughter could feed many dozen starving people...and that cow itself can only feed few.

Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry.

Just do the best you can.<3

Thanks. I needed that. ^_^

Good news is, I'm getting closer to being a full vegetarian according to the Scriptures. Pork has lost its taste for me, and chicken is starting to.

[PARAM]

Animals are always needed but many flesh eaters have things to say to justify themselves, many people are dying starving, cost of food is rising, and we have lakhs of ton of foodgrains rotting, it's not animals who are responsible for this.

We cannot just blame monkeys for rising prise of fruits, nor any other for anything, we have a culture for this.

People do not have to become vegetarian to be a Hindu, there are many NV sects in Hinduism, but NV is strictly avoided as Tamsik in every Dharm Granth.

[NayaSurya]

Perhaps you having rotting grain in your country...but here in the U.S. we have a program in which the government buys up the surplus grain and distributes it to the poor and hungry.

But, because of increased grain uses such as cows and alternative fuels....not to mention the new laws on our fed reserves of grain, our country has lost much of it's surplus.

Animals here are responsible for much of our problems...for creating so much methane and for taking surplus grain. Grain which could not only feed our hungry, but others...as it once did.

http://www.commodityfoods.org/about_acda.php

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-05-01-usda-food-supply_N.htm


"U.S. government food surpluses have evaporated because, with record high prices, farmers are selling their crops on the open market, not handing them over to the government through traditional price-support programs that make up for deficiencies in market price.


Worldwide, food prices have risen 45&#37; in the past nine months, posing a crisis for millions, says the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization.

Because of the current economics of food, and changes in federal farm subsidy programs designed to make farmers rely more on the markets, large U.S. reserves may be gone for a long time.

The upshot: USDA has almost no extra food to supplement the billions in cash payments it spends to combat hunger at home and in developing nations."

Oh, and I do not blame ignorant filthy animals for this...I blame the humans...who continue to eat massive quantities of these creatures in places such as McDonalds and Burger King...eating there almost daily.

As I said before...we do not eat these things: "because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle."

This problem rests upon the humans who breed and slaughter these animals and the humans so quick to consume.

[NayaSurya]

I think this story would be pertinent to this conversation.

One time, one of my sons was born critically ill. His lungs were ruptured down the center and I was at Ronald McDonald House in louisville. This is a hotel for parents of children staying at the hospital. McDonald's has a good side and it rests upon this charity.

While there, a black car pulls up and out of it comes about eight Amish. Their child had drowned in a bucket of milk and was barely clinging to life right alongside my own son.

I was surprised to see that these devoted beings had each, in their hand, a McDonald's value meal. But, we became very good friends of the Father of this baby. What I discovered is that even the Amish are allowed to ride in cars...eat McDonald's if this is the only food available.

It made sense to me...these folks had no way to eat anything else...and they had to use a car to ride around the city.

So perhaps this is logical for everyone? We do what we can. Perhaps it's not always feasible to give up a certain food...or foods. Perhaps we just don't have the time or ability.

We do what we can...the very best we can. What else can we do?<3

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: In a university class a long time ago, a professor of mine one day gave a fairly lengthy lecture on the premise that currently we are only supporting 3% of the population this planet could support.

Here are some of his ideas.

Meat, in terms of use of land, is grossly inefficient compared to lentil type crops. Example: most of the American midwest grows corn for cattle feed.

Distribution of food is ridiculous. Some food is shipped literally half way around the world when it could be grown locally or closer. Example: Here in western Canada we get 90% of the Indian style tropical vegetables and fruit from Fiji, which is 3 times the distance from Hawaii. Why? cheap labour

Much arable land is wasted on useless crops or crops for export when the locals could use it. Example: cane, bananas, chocolate, coffee, tea,

Much small land such as backyards, highway medians is put into grass, where vegetables could be grown. Just wasted land. A small backyard garden can supply a family with a lot of food.

Good farmland is being gobbled up for urban sprawl.

It is the kali yuga.

Aum Namasivaya

[PARAM]

Perhaps you having rotting grain in your....

This all is not because of any voiceless animal but because of anti Natural policy, India is one third of US land area, but have three times of the population, India have the most cows in the world, still India have less of this problem.

Killing animals and making fuel of foodgrains will not bring any solution, even biogas can be made from animal stool.

What will you do if your country have no animals? Instead of killing cows if US try to make Milk production rise it will still help.

I am also not blaming you.


I think this story would be pertinent to this conversation....

This is what can a person do. Right nobody can do anything if they have nothing. But one thing reminds me it is about a letter by Vivekanand to his friend of one of the Indian Princes, (May be Maharaja of Khetri but I am not sure) It was just before He was leaving to Chicago, Vivekanand wrote that, It is better to eat Grass that to eat flesh.

One more thing, when Maharana Pratap lost the battle of Haldi Ghati, he and his family went to exile, there he and his family ate grass rotis.

I agree all this is human behaviour what they have to do. If good Vegitarian restaurents make their way, and production of foodgrains is not used as fuel than this problem can be solved.


Vannakkam: In a university class a long time ago, a professor of mine one day gave a fairly lengthy lecture on the premise that currently we are only supporting 3% of the population this planet could support.

Here are some of his ideas.

Meat, in terms of use of land, is grossly inefficient compared to lentil type crops. Example: most of the American midwest grows corn for cattle feed.

Distribution of food is ridiculous. Some food is shipped literally half way around the world when it could be grown locally or closer. Example: Here in western Canada we get 90% of the Indian style tropical vegetables and fruit from Fiji, which is 3 times the distance from Hawaii. Why? cheap labour

Much arable land is wasted on useless crops or crops for export when the locals could use it. Example: cane, bananas, chocolate, coffee, tea,

Much small land such as backyards, highway medians is put into grass, where vegetables could be grown. Just wasted land. A small backyard garden can supply a family with a lot of food.

Good farmland is being gobbled up for urban sprawl.

It is the kali yuga.

Aum Namasivaya


But better do not grow BT/GM foods

[NayaSurya]

This all is not because of any voiceless animal but because of anti Natural policy, India is one third of US land area, but have three times of the population, India have the most cows in the world, still India have less of this problem.


Since you obviously aren't aware of the reason for this or you wouldn't use this to counter my statement, I will explain. Cows here in this huge country are being fed almost exclusively grain.

"Grain: 99% of U.S. beef cattle are raised in concentrated animal-feeding operations (CAFOs) where liquefied manure systems and the methane released by the cows create more greenhouse-gas emissions than transportation."

http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/blog-5226-grass-fed-vs-grain-fed-beef.html

"Currently, more than 70 percent of the U.S. grain harvest -- and more than one third of the grain produced in the world -- is fed to cattle and other livestock."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture



I am also not blaming you.

Blame me, blame every American...blame humanity.

I worked as a cow tender on a very small dairy farm. I lived in the farmhouse on this 200 acre farm and took care of these animals. I fed them grain, tended to their birthing...the bull on the farm followed me around like a puppy. It was so large, bulked up on hormones and special feed...it took a huge trailer to ship him around for stud service.

I think we must be comparing apples and genetically mutated apple-oranges here. I didn't suggest killing off cows to lower the population. What would happen if everyone stopped eating the beef just from one place such as McDonalds?

Cows would stop being killed...they would not be forced to calf every Spring. The methane would lower and our planet would be healthier. The surplus grain not used to feed cows would go to the world's hungry once again...and even though this might not solve everything...it's a start.

As far as feeding my children grass...when their bodies would eventually die from such a thing...no. I am not a prince...or a king. I am not wise like Vivekananda...not even a small bit like this being.

I am a lowly ignorant mother...and I wonder how many mothers would choose a fish or chicken over poisoning her own child with grass, which would surely kill them.

I would not be one of those mothers to choose grass. If I come back a thousand times for the trangression...I will never be.

[atanu]

The original question was "do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?". The answer is no.

There are evidences of meat eating from scripture. There are sacrifices which involve animals -- although the meat eating in such cases is far from revelry. Both Brahma Sutras and Manu Smriti indicate the meat eating is not sin. But Manu smriti clarifies that one gains punya on renunciating meat eating.

I understand that vegetarian eating involves killing too -- beginning with plant itself and then during cooking. Totally sinless eating would be fruit eating alone. Then, how can blame accrue to one for eating what is the norm in a cultural milieu where one is born? If such a person can give up meat eating that however would be considered good. I have met vegetable eating people who are otherwise very cruel to fellow men.

Moreover, it is also true that a person should not change his/her staple food drastically. For example, even in India, there is huge variation. East Indians can hardly digest the amount of pepper used in Rajasthan and Andhra Pradesh. Similarly, i cannot digest some pulses commonly used in south indian foods, such as Dosa and Idli. I develop severe flatulence and Gout.

My brother used to live in a hostel where he had only Idli and Dosa as food day and night. After about 4 months, he developed such a condition that he vomited just on seeing food. For two months he suffered before a doctor asked him "Are you on south indian food?" The Doctor said that some stomachs cannot digest south indian food on regular basis.

Withdrawal from meat eating does cause usual problems of some vitamin deficiency. What will happen to a lion or a tiger if such an animal is fed only grass? This example is just to give a contrast so that the logic is clear. On the other hand, it is also true that ancient sages might not have had any vitamin supplemet while living on fruit and milk diet.

One must respect the body and its needs and take it slow. But slowly turning to veg food is good for all, IMO.

Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

The original question was "do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?". The answer is no.


But slowly turning to non-veg food is good for all, IMO.

Om Namah Shivaya

Hope you meant to say "But slowly turning to veg food is good for all, IMO."

Love and best wishes