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shian
13 April 2010, 01:17 AM
MahaHrada

Namaste,

we can use this thread.

Not only about Kalacakra.

ok, you have post about many Great Rinpoche says about we must refuge only to the Buddha, and not Brahma, Indra, Vishnu and Shiva.

let me answer this

Even in Buddhism, refuge in the name of Buddha is not the final or true refuge.

what is the Buddha ? is Shakyamuni ? which Shakyamuni ? prince Siddharta ? who has already pass away ?

yes Sakyamuni , prince Siddharta !

but problem is even Sakyamuni. Can you said Sakyamuni is one ? if one, one what ?

Because different peoples have different opinion and understanding about Sakyamuni, even they learn from same text.

If they said "No, Sakyamuni from Buddhist is same, only one."

so if only one, please answer me, "So ever one in Buddhism is already enlightened ??? because you said Sakyamuni Buddha for everyone is same."
"If same, why so many Buddhist student have different explain about Sakyamuni ? like Theravada and Mahayana, they have different ways to explain this Buddha.
also if same, why some student need understand again about Sakyamuni from your teaching? "

So, i said : refuge to the Buddha and anythings is not the FINAL
that is only DRAMA.

so what the different of word Buddha and Shiva ?

the theory about supreme refuge is not appear again now.

acctually unenlightened people only refuge to their mind !

Buddha, Shiva, whatever is only product of their mind.

Namo Buddhaya is only a ship, only a way, only a tools.

said Buddha is superior better than ABC, or ABC is superior better than Buddha is only tools to make student have a faith !

that is the first step only, dont be stuck there!

MahaHrada
13 April 2010, 03:38 AM
MahaHrada

Namaste,

we can use this thread.

Not only about Kalacakra.

ok, you have post about many Great Rinpoche says about we must refuge only to the Buddha, and not Brahma, Indra, Vishnu and Shiva.

let me answer this

Even in Buddhism, refuge in the name of Buddha is not the final or true refuge.

what is the Buddha ? is Shakyamuni ? which Shakyamuni ? prince Siddharta ? who has already pass away ?



so what the different of word Buddha and Shiva ?

the theory about supreme refuge is not appear again now.

acctually unenlightened people only refuge to their mind !

Buddha, Shiva, whatever is only product of their mind.

Namo Buddhaya is only a ship, only a way, only a tools.

said Buddha is superior better than ABC, or ABC is superior better than Buddha is only tools to make student have a faith !

that is the first step only, dont be stuck there!

Dear Shian,

For the third time please try to understand i am only describing the teaching of the Gurus of Vajrayana and why they think that it is praiseworthy to show other deities of the Hindu religion in a humiliated position, i have not invented this nor do i belive in any teaching like that. If you have objections to these tachings don´t tell them to me, tell this to the masters of Vajrayana, that would be a good idea.
In Vajrayana the objects of Refuge is not only the historical Buddha it is the Buddhas,Gurus, Mandalas of Yidams (istha) and Dakinis.
The Hindu Gods are described as worldly gods still under the influence of Samsara, as you can see this also include Shiva Brahma and Vishnu and certainly also Ganesha.

They are considered impure because of their belief in a self (Atman) and an ultimate ground of being (brahman) instead of Non self and Emptiness. Therefore Vajrayana Gurus belive they, and the corresponding impurities in the nadis of the subtle body, have to be subjugated and humiliated and purified.

"The Matam Rudra which clings to the ‘I’ will be dispelled, All forms of worldly happiness and pain, the Egoism of Speech (Akar Rudra) will be destroyed. The saying ‘this is mine’ of anything, the mental ‘I’ (Khatram Rudra) is freed. The true nature and distinguishing attributes of a Rudra Which is manifest outwardly, exists inwardly, and lies hidden secretly, In short all fifty-eight Rudras, with their hosts will be destroyed completely.
[...]
Unless the power of the Buddhas is exerted to subjugate the Rudra, the Faith of Buddhas will cease to spread and will degenerate. That body which has committed such violent outrages on every other being, must be made to suffer the agonies of being hurt by weapons wielded by avengers. If he is not made to feel the consequences of his deeds, the Jinas who have proclaimed the Truth will be falsified. He is not to be destroyed but to be subdued."
[..]
"Assume the forms and sexes of Chenrezi and Dolma (Avalokita and Tara) and subdue the enemy by assuming the shapes of the deities Horse-mane and Sow’s head (Hayagriva and Vajravarahi)."

In case you have doubts that Rudra in this text means Shiva:

Buddha Marmedzad having revealed this to him, the king wished to see whether this was the Rudra referred to in the prophesy. So he collected his army of rakshasas and went to engage in battle with the demon force.
Matam Rudra was very angry and said:
"I am the Great Invincible One, who is without a peer, I am Ishvara Mahadeva (The Great God, Lord Shiva).The four great kings of the four directions are my vassals,The eight different tribes of spirits are my slaves,I am the Lord of the whole world.Who is going to withstand and confront me?
The Golden Rosary of the Lotus-born

There are many more other such stories that explain why the Hindu Gods are shown subjugated. This is only one example.
The position of Vajrayana towards Hindu Dharma is very clear without a doubt Hindu Gods are considered worldly forces that have to be subjugated. I have no problem with that belief people can belief what they want, i only object to the public depiction of trampled hindu gods, and do not think that worship of such pictures and murti is a good thing.

This is a contrinuation of the discussion in this thread:http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5576&highlight=lakshmi+mantra post #7 onwards.

Ashvati
13 April 2010, 11:42 AM
If it contributes at all to this, even though it has little basis in scripture other than what I consider philosophical compatibility, I personally believe Buddha may very well have been an avatar of Shiva (despite the fact that Saivas traditionally don't believe in avatars, but than I can hardly call myself traditional) or at least that Shiva likely had a hand in his enlightenment. I especially find zen philosophy helpful for understanding Shiva.

Also, I'm pretty sure Siddharta came from a Saiva family, which could be seen as either evidence of Shiva's influence on him or as disproving it and being the explanation for the similarities.

shian
13 April 2010, 09:28 PM
Yes MahaHrada, i know what you mean

but that kind of explanation is not for all Vjarayana.

My Guru has very respect to Hindu,
He teach the Dharma and Sadhana about Ganesha
when He was visite Hindu temple, He was pay homage to all deitys.

I also have Buddhist Text (Chinesse canon) that said Shiva is manifestasion of Ancient Great Buddha, even sravaka like Mahamaudgalyana, Sariputra etc is cannot understand the deep of Shiva's wisdom, and Sakyamuni was smile and said : "only Buddha and Buddha will undertsand"

but about this others Vajrayana is not my bussiness, they also have right to have their own explanation about teachings of the Buddha.

So... not all of Buddhist like that
(i also have meet many Buddhist has many misunderstand about Hindu teachings about atman etc) they see the sect who appear in life time of Siddharta was representation of all HINDU.
They dont know HINDU have many sect and lineage who have different each others.

when they said about Hindu atta, they become very arrogant. So they talk about anatman with arrogant style... LoL

Rich of phyloshopy is beautifull, but the bad side is will have many misunderstand.

LALKAR
14 April 2010, 11:05 AM
Namaste All,

I can say that

Buddha was disciple of two brahmans Alar Kalam and Rudrak Ramputra, so he was indeed a Hindu himself

During post medival era, in Bengal were Vajryan sect was in force, a new sect Sahajyan was rised from it, the Sahajyanis call themselves 'Nath' and for them Bhagwan Shiv was Aadi Nath (original Nath), this sect was a Shaiv sect indeed.

atanu
15 April 2010, 11:58 PM
but that kind of explanation is not for all Vjarayana.
--
They dont know HINDU have many sect and lineage who have different each others.
when they said about Hindu atta, they become very arrogant. So they talk about anatman with arrogant style... LoL
Rich of phyloshopy is beautifull, but the bad side is will have many misunderstand.

Namaste Shian

I hold your simple sayings in high esteem.

The story of Matam Rudra is a peculiar one. There are many parallels in the Rig Veda where Indra mercilessly makes pieces out of Vritta. Indra also kills Bheda. Indra kills Visvarupa. Indra-Vishnu together overcome Krsanu - the archer equated to death. The adityas are said to defeat Death (Shiva) by entering into Him. All these defeated heroes bear the names of Shiva. But scriptures also teach that it is Death that puts up the immortal -- who again is Shiva. Rig Veda sings of Shiva who is said to guide and nourish Indra in all His valiant fights. Rig Veda also often calls Indra as Shiva friend and also as Rudra synonymously.

Similarly the Vairochana/Virochana and Samantabhadra (of Buddhism) are unmistakebly Shiva. The meaning of Samantabhadra as All Good-All pervasive is one with the meaning of Shiva. Guru Padmasambhava was also called Guru Zwiva (Shiva?).

However, what makes the story of Matam Rudra dicey (and probably sectarian) is the proclamation of Matam Rudra "I am Mahadeva". And also the role of a dicey Kali who is supposed to have played in escalating the ego of Matam Rudra. That smells of sectarian tantra/purana reading but no Purana or Tantra of Hindu origin puts the words: "I am Mahadeva" in the mouth of vritta (Matam Rudra) or in the mouth of Manyu (wrath). In fact Indra wins by bringing Manyu, Agni, and Soma on His side. In fact vritta on his disintegration tells Indra "I was what you are now" . Hindu scriptures (veda) indicates that Indra kills the father upon His birth. Indra humiliates the Lord of Shakti. Brahmanas also teach that the All pervasiveness (vishnu) is destroyed on account of pride and that no one in this world is above pride as no one is outside of Vishnu. But the unborn consciousness (the revelaer of consciousness-the Self called Shiva) and the revealed conciousness (the Pragnya) are indestructible.

Though all these seem to teach that even the post of Supreme Regulator in this world is not permanent, the Veda does not teach defeat of Ishwara Rudra. (There are expansions of 100 rudras that bring jara (disease) etc. and they are overcome by prayer to Rudra).


I also have Buddhist Text (Chinesse canon) that said Shiva is manifestasion of Ancient Great Buddha, even sravaka like Mahamaudgalyana, Sariputra etc is cannot understand the deep of Shiva's wisdom, and Sakyamuni was smile and said : "only Buddha and Buddha will undertsand"
It is somewhat like this. Jesus comes at horizon and Jesus followers forget the Eternal. Similarly Krishna coms on the horizon and some devotees do not mind killing off the eternal. It is mild to say that Shiva is a manifestation of ancient Buddha (who as a person or as the eternal Great is known only after the manifestation of physical Buddha). Intending to teach to oppose the temporal, Buddhism however, seems only to support upholding of temporal.

Veda, as per my and our understanding, is devoid of such linkage to any birth. And the Lord of Veda is not manifestation of any temporal name-form.

Om Namah Shivaya

shian
16 April 2010, 08:25 PM
Namaste,

the most important things is, the ways Many Ancient Gurus use to teach.

Story like that is simbolism of mind.

Not only in India, its also for Abrahamic religion

but sadly , that kind of theory become a one "reason" to hate each others!

***

Kalacakra, yesterday my friend opened his Vedic astrology book
He tell me the text who said :

"Oh God (Kalacakra) please protect me."

Kalacakra is also the one of God name in Hindu.

***

about Ganesh,

Shiva is Mahakala,
after Parvati "create" Ganesh, Mother Parvati said Ganesh must protect in front of door, dont let anyone enter the place during Mother Parvati still bathing.

Shiva (Mahakal) was come to meet Mother Parvati
that time Ganesh is not have discern choice who can enter, coz Mother already tell Him everyone cannot enter!

So Shiva (Mahakal) was cuting Ganesh head !

In Buddhist text also have TWO STORY by Tripitaka (canon) about Ganesh

1. Ganesh is very mercyfull Deity , He cannot refuse what bhakta ask from Him. So even that is bad or good things , all is be grant to bhakta!
So Mahakala was subjugating Ganesh.

2. Shiva has two Great sons,
first is Vinayaka (Ganesh) who get mission to lead ganas, to give all beings many obstacle and bad things
second is Kumara ! who get mission from Shiva to give all beings good things! and become lead of Angels.

(Kumara / Subrahmanyam and Ganesh was get important position in Garbhadhatu Mandala. Garbhadhatu Mandala is manifestation of Vairocana in this universe to do a karma (Saguna brahman) Kumara and Ganesh was Protector deitys to Buddhist)

that time Avalokiteshvara was know about this (Ganesh give obstacles to Buddhist also - coz He must give do it to all beings)
and Avalokiteshvara was become a female Vinayaka

When Ganesh saw Her , He falling in love
Female Vinayaka said : "Great King, i am is female Vinayaka (obstacle Goddess) , but i wearing a robe as Buddha student. I protect Buddha Dharma. If you want me to be your wife, you should do like Me first."

Ganesh said : "Princess, we all have a nidana to know each other! so until now i will become a protector to Buddhist."

and then they are smilling and hug each others.(I will post the image who was used by Japanesse Tantric , Ganesh and Female Vinayaka who originally is Avalokitesvara was hug each other)

Off course this kind all of story is have deep meaning

not mean Ganesh have worldly lust etc.

In Buddhist also have teaching how to subjugatin Ganesh . Must be use Amrta Kundali Vidyarajah.

this is seems like not right

but why have that teachings?

you should be know.

In Hindu, a wrong people who do black magic can use one deitys as Isthadevata. (not mean this deitys is bad)
this is the wrong of the people who use that deity to do bad things
so some sect will have a sadhana to subjugating this deity WHO WAS CREATED BY THIS BAD PEOPLE MIND, EVEN THIS DEITY IS HAVE USED IN OTHER SECT AS A BENEVOLENT GOD!!!

Please think, why this text said this God is good but another text said a sadhana about way to subjugating this God ???

i think people who learn about India phylosophy must be know and understand this.

shian
16 April 2010, 08:38 PM
This is Ganesh image , He hug Avalokitesvara (as female Vinayaka)
this image is made from instruction by the canon !

Here Ganesh is named as 大圣欢喜天 (Gerat Sacred Joyfull Deva)
sanskrit originall text was said this name is

MAHA ARYA NANDIKESVARA



http://www.evdd.com/bbs/upload/forum22_f_105_1142075957.jpg



http://www.likuimingfansclub.com/forum/customavatars/2308.jpg

shian
16 April 2010, 08:43 PM
(

t



Namaste

This is Ganesh image (Hindu style) ,
my Guru was sign in foot of Ganesh!

My Guru is have original lineage from Tibetan and also East Tantra (originally - India - China - Japan)

What i say is not mean please become Buddhist. Absolutelly not!
What i want is please let us peace and understand each others.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k49/badgerms/OmGanapatiyeSuoha.jpg

shian
16 April 2010, 08:50 PM
The image above (Ganesha) in Hindu style, also used by us (Buddhist lineage) to install on the mandala.

and under Ganesh foot is have chinesse text, that is read :
"Om Ganapatiye Svaha"

(the short Heart Mantra my sect use to Ganesh)

My Guru also teach us Long Mantra of Ganesha :

「嗡諾那諾那諾奴諾奴。嘎那巴底。嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎。嘎那巴底。主汝主汝,

嘛奴巴雜,汝汝汝汝,嘎嘎打耶,嘎那巴底耶。梭哈。」

that is from sanskrit , with Chinesse pronociation, but i not sure the sanskrit version , i only can translate the chinesse prounonciation :

"Om NUONA NUONA NUONU NUONU - GANAPATI - GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN - GANAPATI - ZHURU ZHURU (SURU SURU ?)- MANI PACA (MANIVAJRA?) - RU RU RU RU - GAGA TAYE (GANGAN DAYE??) - GANAPATIYE SVAHA"

My Guru said Ganesh have many form, you can choose the one to visualisation

He not advice we must use image of Ganesh from text, and dont use HIndu style.

so, in my spritiual practice, i never have any CRASH bettwen Hindu and Buddhism by my own mind ! never.

so somtimes i feel not really understand the reason what Hindu and Buddhist peoples use to slander each others!

but i also know this is a normal phenomena in this dirty world.

atanu
19 April 2010, 01:37 AM
Namaste,
the most important things is, the ways Many Ancient Gurus use to teach.

Story like that is simbolism of mind.
Not only in India, its also for Abrahamic religion
but sadly , that kind of theory become a one "reason" to hate each others!


Namaste Shian

I agree. Yet, in the story (myth) Matam Rudra saying "I am Ishwara, Shiva, Mahadeva", might not be present in the original text? You may enlighten us.

It is easy to see the effect of Matam Rudra, which is ego. But it is not easy and probably not correct to associate matam Rudra with Ishwara-Shiva. (Shiva by meaning is auspicious and Siva also means the Red-the Rajas, which is the agony of existence -- no doubt). There is need to distinguish between the all pervading Auspicious being called Existence-Intelligence-Bliss and the Rajasic effect of that all pervading Auspicious .

For us, Ishwara, Shiva, Mahadeva is not different from Atman, which is unborn consciousness and which is the source and refuge of the consciousness and Mind --same as Buddha and Pragnya.

Like you, I see only the same. But i try to understand when i see some efforts that appear to me to be the product of fragmented minds trying to create differences.

Om Namah Shivaya

shian
19 April 2010, 10:14 PM
Nilakanthalokesvara Dharani (Taisho Tripitaka Chinesse No 1111)

namo ratnatrayāya
nama āryāvalokiteśvarāya bodhisattvāya mahāsattvāya mahākāruṇikāya
oṁ sarvabhayaśodhanāya tasya namaskṛtvā imu āryāvalokiteśvara tava
namo nīlakaṇṭha hṛdayaṁ vartayisyāmi sarvārthasādhanaṁ śubham ajeyaṁ
sarvabhūtānāṁ bhavamārgaviśodhakam
tadyathā oṁ ālokādhipati lokātikrānta
ehi mahābodhisattva sarpa sarpa smara smara hṛdayam
kuru kuru karma
dhuru dhuru vijayate mahāvijayate
dhara dhara dhāraṇīrāja cala cala mama vimalāmūrtte
ehi ehi
cinda cinda
araspracali
vaśavaśam pranāśaya
hulu hulu smara hulu hulu
sara sara siri siri suru suru
bodhiya bodhiya bodhaya bodhaya
maitriya nīlakaṇṭha dehi me darśanam
praharāyamānāya svāhā
siddhāya svāhā
mahāsiddhāya svāhā
siddhayogiśvarāya svāhā
nīlakaṇṭhāya svāhā
varāhamukhāya svāhā
narasiṁhamukhāya svāhā
gadāhastāya svāhā
cakrahastāya svāhā
padmahastāya svāhā
nīlakaṇṭhapāndarāya svāhā
mahātali śankarāya svāhā
namo ratnatrayāya svāhā
oṁ siddhyantu mantrapadāya svāhā
nama āryāvalokiteśvarāya bodhisattvāya

hear the song from :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiAT07i_lus

shian
19 April 2010, 10:46 PM
《入大乘論》中提到「(十地法雲地菩薩)能令一切無礙自在作摩醯首羅天子,亦爲一切世間依止。‧‧‧,受一切種智位。」

let i translate this text :

(Sastra For Entering Mahayana) ~ Rudachenglun
Dasabhumi Bodhisattva is called Dharmamegha , can make all free from obstacles, become Mahamahesvara Devaputra.
and also become saranam (refuge) of sarvaloka (all of entire universe)... get position of all of Jnana !"


《十住經》也提到「大自在天光明勝一切眾生。」
Sutra of Bodhisattva Ten (住 - stay) also said :
The light of Mahamahesvara Deva is beyond all beings.

《大方廣佛華嚴經》也同時提到了「一切光明」及「遍一切智」的記載:
「譬如摩醯首羅天王光明,能令眾生身心清涼,一切光明所不能及,此地(第十法雲地)菩薩智慧光明亦復如是,能令眾生皆得清涼,乃至住於一切智智。一切聲 聞、辟支佛,乃至第九地菩薩智慧光明悉不能及。‧‧‧,諸佛世尊復更為說三世智,法界差別智,遍一切世界智,照一切世界智,慈念一切眾生智。舉要言之,乃 至為說得一切智智。‧‧‧,菩薩住此地,多作摩醯首羅天王。‧‧‧,乃至不離念具足一切種一切智智。」

Avatamsaka Sutra :
Like a light of Mahmahesvara Devaraja is can give refreshing for all beings heart. All of light is cannot emulating (Mahamahesvara's) light. The Wisdom Light of Dharmamegha Bodhisattva (Dasabhumi Bodhisattva) is also like this (like Mahamhaesvara light), can give refreshing for all beings heart, also stay in sarvajnana (all of great wisdom).

Sarva SRAVAKA, PRATYEKA BUDDHA and NINE BHUMI BODHISATTVA like is cannot emulating !

many Bodhisattvas wo stay in Ten Bhumi is take a form of Mahamahesvara Devaraja. Not different from sarvajnana!


在《俱舍光記》第七卷中更直接提到:「大自在天總有千名,今現行世唯有六十。‧‧‧,自在出過三界有三身:一、法身,遍充法界。二、受用身,居住色界上自在天宮,即佛法中說摩醯首羅天,三目八臂,身長萬六千逾繕那 。三、化身,隨行六道種種教化。」

(俱舍光記 - Jusheguangji) 7 :
Mahesvara Deva have thousand names, now who appear in world is only 16.
He have Trikayas who is selfmastery beyond Triloka !
1. is Dharmakaya, full in Dharmadhatu
2. Sambhogakaya . who stay in rupadhatu svarga in Kingdom of Isvara. is Mahesvara Deva , with three eyes, eight arms, tall is 16000 yojanas, he appear in many forms in sadgati (six realm / samsara) to teachings different kind of beings.

the Buddhist ancient text who talk about Mahesvara not only this, have many many...
i will translate one by one if imposibblle.

So this is why i cant unerstand how come Mahesvara is rejecting by Buddhist???

even Buddhist text is not said He is demigods, Buddhist text said He is in level of Buddha !

Mahesvara appaear in some deitys foot is because in Buddhist Mahesvara is Mahabodhisattva who have special ways to teach all beings.

My Guru said, Mahamara Devaputra is have GREAT Maha Bodhicitta, because He become mara to teach beings what way to recognize inner mara (devil who appear by delution of oneself) and subjugate this inner mara.

Without external mara, how come peoples will know the greatest mara is in his self.

I think Shiva is very very benevolent, He no need place who worshiped as great clean etc. He even can take His body in a foot to teach beings.

He appear in yaksha form (i have one Sutra from canon who said Shiva is Buddha who have Great Mercy and for teach beings He appear in form of Yaksha, who lead many devils) and dancing in crematory (who peoples see that is the dirty place) , see how Daksa hate Shiva appeerance.

But why Shiva take this form ?
because His compassion to beroken all delution and dualism attachment.

mcshantihank
06 June 2010, 01:58 PM
but have you ever been pondering upon this: jesus and buddha are very similar. jesus is called messiah and some people say that messiah comes from the sanskrit word maitreya. the next buddha in buddhism be called maitreya. in china and japan they have a being called budai and he is said to be maitreya's incarnation. jesus did many things that shakyamuni buddha did.
maybe all religions are just one. wee learn about inter-religious peace
we must experience oneness. just understand that all the buddhas carry name of different vedic rishis. and both shiva and buddha are pictured in meditation posture.

this is what a buddhist told me:
As I am not a student of ancient languages, I can only guess that the Buddha, like anyone else, would speak within the culture of the language that he was speaking. Most of his time after englightenment, the Buddha was travelling with the ancient kingdom of Magadha and spoke the language called Magadhi, which later is commonly called Pali, which was used to write the first suttas. In ancient India (like most other old civilizations), the educated class who could read and write were the priests and religious people. and hence terminology from the Vedi language was commonly used then.

We usually call Gautama Buddha as "the Buddha" as he was the most recent Buddha to come to this world. However, in religious discussions involving other Buddhas, then we use the descriptive such as "Gautama Buddha" or "Sakyamuni Buddha", etc, to differentiate from the others.

May you be well and happy,

Reverend Heng Yuen
www.dharmabliss.org