I forgot, what I shouldn't forget. Please explain nirguna aspect of god. =:::(

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

I forgot about the nirguna aspect of god, can anyone explain it to me again?
So... it is true after all, shikshya skhyam gacchati kala paryayaat.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

I didn't totally forget.... I forgot.... a bit... I remember a bit advaithically, that there is no such thing as evil or good, only different levels of consiousness, the highest level is nirguna, uninfluenced by the three gunas... :o

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam upsy:

Forgetting may be a good thing. It clears the subconscious mind of stuff so the spiritual realms can come through loud and clear. I have forgotten a ton of stuff that once impressed me. So I can't answer your question. There are dictionaries on line. If its REALLY important to me, I do tend to remember it. Here's a link.

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/lexicon/

Just another point of view.

Aum namasivaya

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

thanks anyway EM. It helped a bit. :)

[saidevo]

namaste upsy.

Thanks for the wonderful video presentation link. The vibrations of the sight and sound cause spiritual shivers/showers.

Yes, we are shivoham--the very Shiva, who does all his actions of creation, preservation and dissolution as SaguNa Brahman and yet remains a witness to it all, in the form of NirguNa Brahman, called DakShiNAmUrti.

Trinity is an important concept in Hinduism:

• The MUrtis are three (BrahmA, ViShNu, Shiva);
• Their consorts are three (SarasvatI, LakShmI, PArvatI);
• Their actions are three (sRuShTi, sthiti, saMhAra);
• the divine/human shaktis are three (ichChA, kriya, jnAna);
• AUM comprises three letters/sounds (A--Ah,U--oo,M--mm);
• the guNas are three (sattva, rajas, tamas);
• the worlds of birth-death-rebirth cycle are three (bhu, bhuva, suva);
• kAla--time, is three (past, present, future);
• daily time is three (morning, sandhi--dawn/dusk, night);
• layers of nature are three (light, fire/heat, darkness);
• Self-Realization is in three paths (karma, bhakti, jnAna yogas);
• Control for spiritual advancement, lies in mind, word, deed;
• Human manifestation is in three forms (body, mind, intellect);
• Human existence is in three forms (jAgrat--waking, svapna--dreaming, suShupti--deep sleep).
• Both bhasma-puNDram (horizontal vibhUti) and Urdhva (vertical nAmam) are worn on the forehead in three lines;

All these aspects of the trinity (and their variations) have for their substratum an absolute Unity, which is the NirguNa Brahman, whose nature is sat-chit-Ananda, existence-consciousness-bliss, all three inseparably rolled into one.

This NirguNa Brahman is the substratum behind

• the divine trinity, their consorts and actions,
• the universe in all its chetana--animate, achetana--inanimate, beings; and
• the human existence as turIya--fourth state behind the states of existence, Atman--Self behind the forms of existence.

This NirguNa Brahman is represented and worshipped/meditated as Shiva, ViShNu, KRShNa, and Shakti in the four major sects of Hinduism.

If you think about it,

• We are born, nourished and dissolved in each cell of our body, every little physical action, thought and dream--only their duration in time changes.

• And our whole lifetime as a person in this birth is pre-determined.

• We remain as a he or she in our waking state, he and/or she in our dream state, but only as IT in the deep sleep state.

• When we enter into the fourth state of turIya, we will find that, that IT is not just an empty state, but a state of fullness of bliss, consciousness and existence.

Our Atman--Self, the NirguNa Brahman in us, remains through all of the above, as the silent witness. The more we seek to find and realize this Atman--Self in us, the better will be our spiritual lifestyle and the lesser will be our commitment to the endless cycle of birth and death.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

saidevo, good explanation, but I want the deeper aspects of Nirguna Brahman.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Hmm.... I think God is saguna brahman and also nirguna brahman as you said, but I dont think, the aspect of him doing everything is sagunic and being witness is nirgunic. Both aspects go hand in hand while being both the observer and doer. Because, god, does karma and is karmatheeta at the same time, which is nirgunic, hope I'm clear.:)

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Can anyone give a detailed explanation??????????

[saidevo]

namaste upsy.

Perhaps the nature and role of NirguNa Brahman can be explained as below:

• There are three entities that constitute what we know of life in this world: God, soul and the world.

• God is one; the souls are many; the world is one and the same to every soul.

Now, what is the relationship between these three entities? Different Hindu philosophies define it differently, but they all are complementary to one another, culminating in the philosophy of Advaita. So, we shall look at it from the POV of Advaita, because there is no NirguNa Brahman in any other philosophy.

• Advaita says that all the three entities are one and the same: Brahman, in the form of NirguNa Brahman.

‣ Advaita is the only philosophy that speaks of two Brahmans: NirguNa and SaguNa. Does that mean that Advaita speaks of two Gods? If so, how can it be called Advaita, as this is actually Dvaita?

‣ It's beautiful. Former Jagadguru of the Shringeri ShAradA PITham, shrI Chandrasekhara BharatI explains that in Advaita, there is no second principle/entity other than God, which is why the name. In other words, all the three entities of God-soul-world are nothing but Brahman, the NirguNa Brahman. There is nothing else other than IT.

‣ The philosophy of existence of nothing other than the One Absolute, which is seen as God-soul-world, has strong support in the Vedas/UpaniShads:

God:
‣‣ ekam sat--Reality/Existence is One.--Rg Veda i.164.46

‣‣ ekam evadvitiyam brahma -- Brahman is one, without a second.
--Chandogya upaniShad VI.ii.1

‣‣ prajnanam brahma -- Consciousness is Brahman.
--Aitareya upaniShad 3.3, of Rg Veda

Soul:
‣‣ ayam Atma brahma -- This Self is Brahman.
-- Mandukya upaniShad 1.2, of Atharva Veda

‣‣ tat tvam asi -- Thou art that.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 6.8.7, of Sama Veda, Kaivalya upaniShad

‣‣ aham brahmAsmi -- I am Brahman.
-- Brhadaranyaka upaniShad 1.4.10, of Yajur Veda, Mahanarayana upaniShad

World:
‣‣ sarvaM khalvidaM brahma -- All of this is brahman.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 3.14.1 of the Sama Veda

• Well, if there is nothing other than God as (NirguNa) Brahman, why do we see so much of variety and disparity in the two other entities--soul and world?

Wait, if everything is Brahman, what is it that we actually see as chetana-achetana--animate and inanimate? Or they manifestations of the one Brahman?

‣ Adi Shankara, the most brilliant exponent of Advaita gives a startling answer to such questions:

brahma satyaM jagan mithyA jivo brahmaiva nAparaH ||

"Brahman is the (only) Reality, the universe is an illusion; the living being is Brahman alone, none else."

‣ To further startle us, Advaita schools speak of three kinds of creation:

‣‣ sRshTi-dRshTi vAda: Creation pre-exists our seeing it; it was done by (NirguNa) Brahman in its capacity as Ishvara (Advaita name for SB).

‣‣ ajAti vAda: No creation occurred ever!

Was there any world or souls when we were in deep sleep?
No. So, that is the ultimate Reality.

What, such unconscious darkness is The Reality?
No, it was actually the sat-chit-Ananda state of Brahman, we did not know it as such, and we can realize in the fourth state of turIya. Since we haven't tasted that state, deep sleep appears dark and unconscious to us.

‣‣ dRshTi-sRshTi vAda: Cognition and creation are simultaneous. That is, we create the world as our eyes look, other senses perceive, mind fumbles and intellect inquires into.

Even as the objects in a dark hall of museum at night are enlightened as we walk the hall with a torch of light, the world is created, exclusively for each of us, as we live our life in the waking and dreaming modes of existence.

‣ How daring and brilliant these three theories of creation!

‣‣ After all, creation is subjective, it is there only in our consciousness,
‣‣ this consciousness is universal and is felt individually as the concept and contents of 'I',
‣‣ although most of us see the world in identity, we all still see it only with/in our mind, and
‣‣ as the saying goes, 'no clocks agree', and no two minds either.

*****

• Our question still remains. Whatever the nature of creation, when there is only One Reality, why do we perceive things and souls differently, totally unconnected with the sat-chit-Ananda, nature of Brahman?

‣ The answer in Advaita is that we see things as mAyA projects them for us. mAyA is Ishvara's shakti. Our avidyA--nescience, lies in not realizing this truth.

• If mAyA is unreal, an illusion, why don't we see the reality behind it at all?

‣ We do see the reality intermittently in our waking life, but we ignore it. When we watch a motion picture, how much of the white screen do we see? Very little or nothing of it, right? Still, the white screen is always there, the movie is only projected over it, and we can--and must--be aware of the screen at all times.

There is a white screen behind all the filmy illusion of this world. We perform our roles in our waking/dreaming states and withdraw to the screen in deep sleep.

In our waking and dreaming states we watch the filmy world from outside, from an individual perspective, like one character in the film interacting with another, so the objects and beings of the world appear discrete, varied and with disparity.

In deep sleep, there is no individual perspective, only the universal perspective, and yet, as we are not conscious, the screen appears black in that state.

As we ponder, inquire and meditate the Self, the blackness of the screen will clear gradually, and as we enter the state of turIya and to the extent we can sustain it,

we will progressively see the white of the screen,
know that there is no knower, nothing to know, nor any other knowledge,
and experience the bliss of that state.

*****

The path to Self-Realization defined in Advaita is called the nivRtti-mArga or jnAna mArga. To walk the path, the jIva has to first obtain chitta-shuddhi--purity of mind.

The first path everyone of us takes up automatically when we have sufficient spiritual inclination is the pravRtti-mArga or karma mArga. Here we try to stick to our svadharma, worship our iShTa-devatA--preferred form of God, and accumulate puNya-karma--good karma, that can fetch us the puNya-phala--good fruits, of a longer time in the svargam--heavens.

After many births, the jIva is fed up of the rebirth cycle, so it starts thinking about an escape route from the prison of bhu-bhuva-suvaha--earth, astral world and heaven.

The jIva in this stage realizes the grave mistake it has been committing all along, in its many lives: that of seeking to enjoy the puNya-phala--fruits of puNya-karma, which sets it on a path of descension. Thereby, the jIva learns to renounce even its puNya-phalas, resolutely submits them to Ishvara, and enter the nivRtti-mArga.

Once in nivRtti-mArga, the jIva has two options: bhakti and jnAna. Here is where the VishiShtadvaita and Advaita take in.

• The jIva with a desire to maintain its individuality but escape the cycle of rebirth, surrenders to its iShTa-devata, worships him/her with intense bhakti and phala-tyAga--sacrifice of fruits of good acts, and in the end obtains one of the three kinds of mukti:

‣ sAlokya mukti, where the jIva lives in the world of its personal God;
‣ sAmIpya mukti, where the jIva lives in the proximity of its personal God and serves him/her; and
‣ sArUpya mukti, where the jIva obtains the form of its personal god and enjoys the same bliss as he/she does, still remaining individual.

This kind of mukti by VishiShtadvaita bhakti lasts until the worlds of personal gods last.

• The jIva with a strong desire to get past the worlds of personal gods and merge with Brahman, starts a course of dhyAnam--meditation on the Self, vichAraNam--inquire on the Self and always associates itself in satsangha--company of such wise people.

By sustained and intense dhyAnam, the jIva enters into the fourth state of turIya, first obtains savikalpa-samAdhi, which is intermittent and temporary, and finally nirvikalpa-samAdhi, which is permanent and lasting in all the three states of the jIva's existence.

The jIva which has obtained the nirvikalpa samAdhi is known as jIvan-mukta--liberated while living. In this state of Self-Realization, all the three entities that spoke of in the beginning appear as the one and the same Brahman to the jIvan-mukta. This means that the jIvan-mukta instantaneously has the darshan of Atman that is Brahman inside every jIva--life, and jaDa--insentient object, still knows the veil of mAyA and can adjust its focus to live what appears as a normal life to the outside world.

The beauty of this path is that the jIva learns that the moKSha is not anywhere else and later, but only here and now. The jIva's worldly life ends after its prArabdha karma is spent, and it obtains videha mukti.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

namaste upsy.

Perhaps the nature and role of NirguNa Brahman can be explained as below:

• There are three entities that constitute what we know of life in this world: God, soul and the world.

• God is one; the souls are many; the world is one and the same to every soul.

Now, what is the relationship between these three entities? Different Hindu philosophies define it differently, but they all are complementary to one another, culminating in the philosophy of Advaita. So, we shall look at it from the POV of Advaita, because there is no NirguNa Brahman in any other philosophy.

• Advaita says that all the three entities are one and the same: Brahman, in the form of NirguNa Brahman.

‣ Advaita is the only philosophy that speaks of two Brahmans: NirguNa and SaguNa. Does that mean that Advaita speaks of two Gods? If so, how can it be called Advaita, as this is actually Dvaita?

‣ It's beautiful. Former Jagadguru of the Shringeri ShAradA PITham, shrI Chandrasekhara BharatI explains that in Advaita, there is no second principle/entity other than God, which is why the name. In other words, all the three entities of God-soul-world are nothing but Brahman, the NirguNa Brahman. There is nothing else other than IT.

‣ The philosophy of existence of nothing other than the One Absolute, which is seen as God-soul-world, has strong support in the Vedas/UpaniShads:

God:
‣‣ ekam sat--Reality/Existence is One.--Rg Veda i.164.46

‣‣ ekam evadvitiyam brahma -- Brahman is one, without a second.
--Chandogya upaniShad VI.ii.1

‣‣ prajnanam brahma -- Consciousness is Brahman.
--Aitareya upaniShad 3.3, of Rg Veda

Soul:
‣‣ ayam Atma brahma -- This Self is Brahman.
-- Mandukya upaniShad 1.2, of Atharva Veda

‣‣ tat tvam asi -- Thou art that.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 6.8.7, of Sama Veda, Kaivalya upaniShad

‣‣ aham brahmAsmi -- I am Brahman.
-- Brhadaranyaka upaniShad 1.4.10, of Yajur Veda, Mahanarayana upaniShad

World:
‣‣ sarvaM khalvidaM brahma -- All of this is brahman.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 3.14.1 of the Sama Veda

• Well, if there is nothing other than God as (NirguNa) Brahman, why do we see so much of variety and disparity in the two other entities--soul and world?

Wait, if everything is Brahman, what is it that we actually see as chetana-achetana--animate and inanimate? Or they manifestations of the one Brahman?

‣ Adi Shankara, the most brilliant exponent of Advaita gives a startling answer to such questions:

brahma satyaM jagan mithyA jivo brahmaiva nAparaH ||

"Brahman is the (only) Reality, the universe is an illusion; the living being is Brahman alone, none else."

‣ To further startle us, Advaita schools speak of three kinds of creation:

‣‣ sRshTi-dRshTi vAda: Creation pre-exists our seeing it; it was done by (NirguNa) Brahman in its capacity as Ishvara (Advaita name for SB).

‣‣ ajAti vAda: No creation occurred ever!

Was there any world or souls when we were in deep sleep?
No. So, that is the ultimate Reality.

What, such unconscious darkness is The Reality?
No, it was actually the sat-chit-Ananda state of Brahman, we did not know it as such, and we can realize in the fourth state of turIya. Since we haven't tasted that state, deep sleep appears dark and unconscious to us.

‣‣ dRshTi-sRshTi vAda: Cognition and creation are simultaneous. That is, we create the world as our eyes look, other senses perceive, mind fumbles and intellect inquires into.

Even as the objects in a dark hall of museum at night are enlightened as we walk the hall with a torch of light, the world is created, exclusively for each of us, as we live our life in the waking and dreaming modes of existence.

‣ How daring and brilliant these three theories of creation!

‣‣ After all, creation is subjective, it is there only in our consciousness,
‣‣ this consciousness is universal and is felt individually as the concept and contents of 'I',
‣‣ although most of us see the world in identity, we all still see it only with/in our mind, and
‣‣ as the saying goes, 'no clocks agree', and no two minds either.

*****

• Our question still remains. Whatever the nature of creation, when there is only One Reality, why do we perceive things and souls differently, totally unconnected with the sat-chit-Ananda, nature of Brahman?

‣ The answer in Advaita is that we see things as mAyA projects them for us. mAyA is Ishvara's shakti. Our avidyA--nescience, lies in not realizing this truth.

• If mAyA is unreal, an illusion, why don't we see the reality behind it at all?

‣ We do see the reality intermittently in our waking life, but we ignore it. When we watch a motion picture, how much of the white screen do we see? Very little or nothing of it, right? Still, the white screen is always there, the movie is only projected over it, and we can--and must--be aware of the screen at all times.

There is a white screen behind all the filmy illusion of this world. We perform our roles in our waking/dreaming states and withdraw to the screen in deep sleep.

In our waking and dreaming states we watch the filmy world from outside, from an individual perspective, like one character in the film interacting with another, so the objects and beings of the world appear discrete, varied and with disparity.

In deep sleep, there is no individual perspective, only the universal perspective, and yet, as we are not conscious, the screen appears black in that state.

As we ponder, inquire and meditate the Self, the blackness of the screen will clear gradually, and as we enter the state of turIya and to the extent we can sustain it,

we will progressively see the white of the screen,
know that there is no knower, nothing to know, nor any other knowledge,
and experience the bliss of that state.

*****

The path to Self-Realization defined in Advaita is called the nivRtti-mArga or jnAna mArga. To walk the path, the jIva has to first obtain chitta-shuddhi--purity of mind.

The first path everyone of us takes up automatically when we have sufficient spiritual inclination is the pravRtti-mArga or karma mArga. Here we try to stick to our svadharma, worship our iShTa-devatA--preferred form of God, and accumulate puNya-karma--good karma, that can fetch us the puNya-phala--good fruits, of a longer time in the svargam--heavens.

After many births, the jIva is fed up of the rebirth cycle, so it starts thinking about an escape route from the prison of bhu-bhuva-suvaha--earth, astral world and heaven.

The jIva in this stage realizes the grave mistake it has been committing all along, in its many lives: that of seeking to enjoy the puNya-phala--fruits of puNya-karma, which sets it on a path of descension. Thereby, the jIva learns to renounce even its puNya-phalas, resolutely submits them to Ishvara, and enter the nivRtti-mArga.

Once in nivRtti-mArga, the jIva has two options: bhakti and jnAna. Here is where the VishiShtadvaita and Advaita take in.

• The jIva with a desire to maintain its individuality but escape the cycle of rebirth, surrenders to its iShTa-devata, worships him/her with intense bhakti and phala-tyAga--sacrifice of fruits of good acts, and in the end obtains one of the three kinds of mukti:

‣ sAlokya mukti, where the jIva lives in the world of its personal God;
‣ sAmIpya mukti, where the jIva lives in the proximity of its personal God and serves him/her; and
‣ sArUpya mukti, where the jIva obtains the form of its personal god and enjoys the same bliss as he/she does, still remaining individual.

This kind of mukti by VishiShtadvaita bhakti lasts until the worlds of personal gods last.

• The jIva with a strong desire to get past the worlds of personal gods and merge with Brahman, starts a course of dhyAnam--meditation on the Self, vichAraNam--inquire on the Self and always associates itself in satsangha--company of such wise people.

By sustained and intense dhyAnam, the jIva enters into the fourth state of turIya, first obtains savikalpa-samAdhi, which is intermittent and temporary, and finally nirvikalpa-samAdhi, which is permanent and lasting in all the three states of the jIva's existence.

The jIva which has obtained the nirvikalpa samAdhi is known as jIvan-mukta--liberated while living. In this state of Self-Realization, all the three entities that spoke of in the beginning appear as the one and the same Brahman to the jIvan-mukta. This means that the jIvan-mukta instantaneously has the darshan of Atman that is Brahman inside every jIva--life, and jaDa--insentient object, still knows the veil of mAyA and can adjust its focus to live what appears as a normal life to the outside world.

The beauty of this path is that the jIva learns that the moKSha is not anywhere else and later, but only here and now. The jIva's worldly life ends after its prArabdha karma is spent, and it obtains videha mukti.
Namaste Saidevo.
plz go thru this...
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=43146#post43146

Sir, you have elaborately explained the characters of Brahman, World of MAya and the self. Thank you very much. But, I think due to my prarabdha karma, I still fail to see the nirguna aspect, which I once knew through a higher level of consiousness.
One more thing, I dont think that Maya means illusion. I think it is more like a smoke covering the fire (truth). Or the world exists not as an illusion, but as something else than what we perceive through our senses and intellect.