Why is cows milk not himsa?

[wcrow]

As far as I am aware, most hindu vegetarians abstain from eating meat and other slaughter by-products, as well as sometimes eggs. Why not milk? At least here in europe and the USA, and probably all over the world, after cows have been milked dry they are sent to the slaughterhouses to become meat - so milk purchase, though indirectly, contributes to the death of the cow.
In understand that at least historically in india, this is not the case. The cow lives a happy life, and is not killed, and this is fine. But in the modern world dairy cows are horiffically killed in just the same way as the meat animals are. So why is it not himsa to buy milk products, at least in countries where dairy cows are eventually killed?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté

you can milk a cow many times , but only kill them once.

praṇām

[anupj]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté

you can milk a cow many times , but only kill them once.

praṇām

namaste yajvan-ji
what is your view on consumption of eggs, i heard that the hen which lays eggs(meant for consumption) are some kind of hybrid, and the eggs do not hatch. after the capacity of the hen to lay eggs is over, even the hen is sent to slaughterhouse. and furthermore, even the hen can lay eggs many times, but ultimately it ends up its life in sufferings.

one more thing, i dont think the cows in america have as freedom as in india. here the cows are set free for grazing whereas in european countries(may be america also) they are kept in one place(that's what i saw in a documentary on DW-TV). Isnt this a suffering for the poor cows. keep on producing milk whole life, staying at one place under a roof, and when you dry up you are sent to slaughterhouse???

regards

anup

[wcrow]

"namasté

you can milk a cow many times , but only kill them once.

praṇām"

Maybe I am not understanding properly, but this does not answer my question. If a the cow is not killed, then this is true - and it is infinatly better both for non-harm and food production if they are not killed. But they are killed once they are "spent" - not longer fit for milk production. What I am asking is why this not himsa when you are, albiet indirectly, contrubuting to the slaughterhouse by perchasing this dairy?



i heard that the hen which lays eggs(meant for consumption) are some kind of hybrid, and the eggs do not hatch. after the capacity of the hen to lay eggs is over, even the hen is sent to slaughterhouse. and furthermore, even the hen can lay eggs many times, but ultimately it ends up its life in sufferings.

one more thing, i dont think the cows in america have as freedom as in india. here the cows are set free for grazing whereas in european countries(may be america also) they are kept in one place(that's what i saw in a documentary on DW-TV). Isnt this a suffering for the poor cows. keep on producing milk whole life, staying at one place under a roof, and when you dry up you are sent to slaughterhouse???

regards

anup

All this is absolutly true. All animals that are "spent" are sent to slaughter. Remember, animal farming is a business, and it is not good business to waste valuable "product". Hens, and other animals, have been selecitvly bread (sp?) to produce maximum product. Many are not suitable for humane life, and have horrendous diseases and genetic disfunctions from this selective breeding. Many hens live much shorter lives and lay so many eggs that they are essentially draining thier bodies of nutrient.
Even so-called "free range" are sent to slaughterhouse eventually, and these are the same slaughterhouses as other "normal farmed" animals. I could go on to how horrible these places are, but you probably already know.

I am not sure, but is this also not the case in India, now, too?

Thanks,

Wilfred.

[anupj]

"namasté

you can milk a cow many times , but only kill them once.

praṇām"

Maybe I am not understanding properly, but this does not answer my question. If a the cow is not killed, then this is true - and it is infinatly better both for non-harm and food production if they are not killed. But they are killed once they are "spent" - not longer fit for milk production. What I am asking is why this not himsa when you are, albiet indirectly, contrubuting to the slaughterhouse by perchasing this dairy?



All this is absolutly true. All animals that are "spent" are sent to slaughter. Remember, animal farming is a business, and it is not good business to waste valuable "product". Hens, and other animals, have been selecitvly bread (sp?) to produce maximum product. Many are not suitable for humane life, and have horrendous diseases and genetic disfunctions from this selective breeding. Many hens live much shorter lives and lay so many eggs that they are essentially draining thier bodies of nutrient.
Even so-called "free range" are sent to slaughterhouse eventually, and these are the same slaughterhouses as other "normal farmed" animals. I could go on to how horrible these places are, but you probably already know.

I am not sure, but is this also not the case in India, now, too?

Thanks,

Wilfred.
@bold : i am not sure, but i think this might be happening in India as well!!!

and yes i also think that by consuming products out of animal farms we are contributing towards their slaughter.

[flabber]

there are a lot of oldage homes for cows in India like that for elder people. called in tamil as 'Pasu Madam'. a good number of people contribute to them financially.

[smaranam]

I am not sure, but is this also not the case in India, now, too?

Thanks,

Wilfred.

Namaste

Let us hope someone who knows a lot about the dairy industry will enlighten us.

The major difference as far as i know, is that slaughter of healthy cattle is illegal in most or many states in India owing to its Vedic civilization. India is probably the only country with this rule , maybe Nepal. Unfortunately there are states like Andhra Pradesh, Kerala, West Bengal.... where its legal perhaps due to a lot of non-Hindu consumers.

Appearantly a significant amount of milk supply comes from small farm co-operatives , where individual farmers (who have pet cows in the back yard) supply to bigger dairy units - like Amul.
http://www.indiadairy.com/ind_dairyindustry_factsheet.html

Modern Hindus should also be protected from infiltration of bad things like meat , from other cultures .

There is no such concept in other parts of the world and at least in the western world, male calves do not live a lot. It is an open routine to take the male calves away .... for the unstatable.

As for treatment of the cows in these countries, organic farms are being held under higher standards than before, and cows appearantly graze on green grass in the open at least for some time. So organic milk is relatively better, but only relatively, and the gap in prices is closing.

----

Veganism may not necessarily be the ultimate solution for the whole world, especially India where Vedic Civilization flourished.
Cow protection and agriculture was its basis, and not just milk, butter ghee , but gobar - cow dung used on walls and floors, gomutra - cow urine are all considered very beneficial/medicinal for humans acc. to Vedic ShAstra (scriptures).

Cow milk , when coming from the right environment, happy cows raised with love like by KRshNa and His people , is sAttvic, nourishing for the nervous system (protein, calcium, B12) , creating intelligent balanced humans.

Glories of Mother Cow : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5359

So it would not be hinsa if the cow-ox power-agriculture infrastructure is there. Is this practically possible even for farmers with good intentions ? I really do not know. When consumerism demands more and more and fast everything, that is going to affect how cattle are and can be bred practically.

So the horrors of mass dairy is what needs to be avoided.

Go-rakshA (cow protection) organizations try to bring awareness of stray cows , etc. and Peta has also reached India.
The leather jacket culture has penetrated the urban areas a bit, at the same time there are youth that are fighting for animal rights everywhere.

----

Poultry is probably similar , except small farm co-operatives are not the same as mass industry of the west. In any case , it would be nice if consumption of eggs declined. I see eggs and poultry going hand in hand and no ahimsa or vegetarianism about it.

Jai Shri KRshNa

[LALKAR]

Well

Namaste All,

But sorry,
One more stupid thread,
Yajvan G, you too :( , Hindu values are not what you said to satisfy


Cow is mother like so we drink milk, but cannot kill her, just like you can drink your mothers milk as baby, but after cow is world's mother
Cow is world's mother made by ॐ naturally, thats why Hinduism teaches गौ विश्वस्य मातर.

When you drink your mother's milk is it not himsa, can you link it to maneater thing? Drinking milk cannot be linked to non vegitrains

[smaranam]

Cow is mother like so we drink milk, but cannot kill her, just like you can drink your mothers milk as baby, but after cow is world's mother
Cow is world's mother made by ॐ naturally, thats why Hinduism teaches गौ विश्वस्य मातर.



Namaste LALKARji

I completely agree with these statements.

It is wrong to say milk is non-veg. This, however, is more about demand-supply, customer consumption, boycotting the wrong market, and bringing go-hatyA to a grinding halt.

My post #6 above, speaks pro-vedic civilization, go-rakshA , and tells the wonders of Go-MAtA and her milk.
It points out that most Indian states make slaughter illegal.

When you say "Cow is mother like so we drink milk, but cannot kill her" don't you see the cow and more than that her NEWBORN CALF are being killed , just so the human children can drink milk ? This is the case at least in western countries, and some sections of the east.

Why was that delicate male calf born ? It came to this world as a calf only and only for us, so we can drink milk. Mother Cow's milk is snatched again and again, she is manipulated to supply milk non-stop round the year , even when she is pregnant (and coincidentally she is perpetually pregnant - guess why ). Obviously she is not a mother to those dairy giants, merely a milking and money making machine. Consumers have to be aware of this.

I personally would not bring up this topic, or expect other adult children of GomAtA to go vegan, especially in India, but i have every right to be vegan myself.

Is it not about time something was done , at least with regard to awareness ? In India , for those concerned about it, that would translate to making sure the milk comes from small farm suppliers who love their cows and calves , and stop routine purchase from questionable dairies (PETA India will help in that regard). Also, buffalo milk is not originally a Vedic recomendation as far as i know.

Health and Surplus : Nobody needs those extra-cheesy dishes, and all else - just one glass of milk a day.


Customers, consumers have power to change things , a lot more than we think.

Jai Shri KRshNa

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~



you can milk a cow many times , but only kill them once.


My idea offered here is to suggest that milking the cow is best.
To kill the cow at the end of their productive life misses the notion of compassion. It is the love of the shop keeper that is then being exercised: I love you as a customer, but once you stop buying, you are of little value to me. Like that, I will take care of you cow, but when you are no further value to me I will sell you away.
This to me is small thinking, but that is business ( still to me not right).


Now, every day millions of beings are killed - we step on an ant, we kill bacteria, swat a fly . And what to do with an infestation of rats that may invade your house? How to manage all this?

Such is the world we live - such is the world we need to transcend from.

praṇām

[anupj]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~



My idea offered here is to suggest that it milking the cow is best.
To kill the cow at the end of their productive life misses the notion of compassion. It is the love of the shop keeper that is then being exercised: I love you as a customer, but once you stop buying, you are of little value to me. Like that, I will take care of you cow, but when you are no further value to me I will sell you away.
This to me is small thinking, but that is business ( still to me not right).


Now, every day millions of beings are killed - we step on an ant, we kill bacteria, swat a fly . And what to do with an infestation of rats that may invade your house? How to manage all this?

Such is the world we live - such is the world we need to transcend from.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvan-ji

@bold : that post was really enlightening. but still i do have some questions i will come back with them soon.

pranam

[LALKAR]

Namaste smaranam G,

It is still difficult to accept what you say

Slaugathering their calf is wrong but the truth is that, those calf cannot drink all the milk, they can brink only breast milk, rest of the milk in naturally made for the world, Even Devta's drink Kamdhenu's milk did it can be called stealing Nandini's share?

I strongly support, calf should be allowed to drink milk first as hinduism values, and yes we should not support those compnies who do not allow calf to drink the milk, or slaugather them for beef.


And Bufflow milk is not non veidic, but cow's milk is more accepted in vedas, buffalow belongs to Yamaraj Dharmraj, drinking buffalow milk is also fine, all animals are associated with hinduism like
Elephant- Ganesh, Eravat
Snake- Shiv Mahadev, Takshak, Vasuki
Mouse- Ganesh
Peacock- Marugan
Owl- Lakshmi
etc etc but Cow is always more accepted.

[anupj]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~



My idea offered here is to suggest that milking the cow is best.
To kill the cow at the end of their productive life misses the notion of compassion. It is the love of the shop keeper that is then being exercised: I love you as a customer, but once you stop buying, you are of little value to me. Like that, I will take care of you cow, but when you are no further value to me I will sell you away.
This to me is small thinking, but that is business ( still to me not right).


Now, every day millions of beings are killed - we step on an ant, we kill bacteria, swat a fly . And what to do with an infestation of rats that may invade your house? How to manage all this?

Such is the world we live - such is the world we need to transcend from.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvan-ji and other members.

to be honest, my concern remains to be the sufferings caused to animals becoz of some of the consumable products. and i think even the OP is concerned about the sufferings caused to animals because of the dairy products etc.
again and again it makes me think that whenever i am consuming a milk product, i may be contributing to the suffering that will be caused to a cow or a buffalo. my point is, arent we also somewhere responsible for the sufferings caused to the animals??

pranam

[smaranam]

and yes we should not support those compnies who do not allow calf to drink the milk, or slaugather them for beef.

Namaste

That was my point. So what part do you not accept ?
If those are the only companies around what would one do ? To some , this means bypassing the whole thing. Not everyone thinks this way, though.

[ScottMalaysia]

An ISKCON devotee I met told me that he was vegan because the milk here (New Zealand) comes from cows that are not protected.

[LALKAR]

Namaste

That was my point. So what part do you not accept ?
If those are the only companies around what would one do ? To some , this means bypassing the whole thing. Not everyone thinks this way, though.


Namaste samaranam G,

I accept this as a fact ant not anybody's point, we have to accept it

but I do not accept PETA's advice of compering milk with beef, in your last post you have mentioned about it, please don't think I am angry at you

If christians are killing calf to take entire milk and treating Cows badly, PETA should chek it, why should they want to question Hinduism which never do that? Please chek this thread names - Why is cows milk not himsa? I am not hinting at you but this thread name is the topic

In India PETA have to work with milkaholics like wrestlers, who are vegitrains but consume milk products like Milk, Butter, Paneer, Ghee etc, they know those vegitrains are not harming Cows or other animals.

[LALKAR]

An ISKCON devotee I met told me that he was vegan because the milk here (New Zealand) comes from cows that are not protected.

SM G,

Thats truth, if mother COW is treated badly we should not support those marketing gangs,

But why don't ISCOKN make a Gaushala there where they can treat them as Hindu rule

[smaranam]

If christians are killing calf to take entire milk and treating Cows badly, PETA should chek it, why should they want to question Hinduism which never do that?

You are right, Peta has no business asking Hindus in HindustAn who have nothing to do with killing, to stop drinking milk saying its like meat.

In other countries, the situation is different. The infrastructure , law and thinking is not originally Vedic or Hindu. So Hindus there simply follow their own heart or in rarest cases come up with their own farms - like ISKCON has.

However, as you point out, except for their possibly misleading msgs about milk, Peta is doing some good things, even in India , like stopping KFC mass poultry, leather awareness, and urging government to look more into illegal cow slaughter.

A QN: Where do all the cows go ?


praNAm

[smaranam]

Namaste

A very important point : SwAmi PrabhupAd (ISKCON) said that if milk and ghee from unprotected cows is offered to BhagavAn with a lot of devotion , and used in pujas and yajn~as, KRshNa is pleased and the cow is blessed , possibly to the point of a good birth or liberation. This way , one is enabling the cow to be of service to God as His mother. Surely He will take care of her.

Om Namo Bhagavate VAsudevAya
Om Namah ShivAya