PDA

View Full Version : The slaughter of spiders



Tirisilex
25 April 2010, 10:04 PM
Spiders keep coming into my house and I kill them.. But I have a feeling of remourse afterward. I don't wish to kill them but I don't know what else to do with them.. I'm freaked by spiders.

Ashvati
25 April 2010, 10:10 PM
All I can say to that is that it may not be absolute ahimsa to kill them, but even the dalai lama kills mosquitoes, and you could be freeing them into a better life.

Eastern Mind
25 April 2010, 10:32 PM
Vannakkam: In my house we catch all flies, wasps, mosquitoes, and spiders and release them outside.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
25 April 2010, 10:57 PM
I don't have a real fear of spiders...my heart goes out to you...it's hard to deal with fear...especially when it's founded in reason.

Anything that can harm one of my children...is dead. I will not suffer a spider, wasp, snake...bear...I would die defending them. I have no choice.

If as a Mother, I would allow the devil in my door and it were to kill my child...then I would truly suffer a geater punishment than if I just killed the devil at the door and defended my household.


I have to tell you a story about when we bought our home here on the hill... In Kentucky, we have brown recluse. When we move into our home, every single window was covered in huge nests of these spiders...and I leave them alone...because on the outside of home is no harm to me. They actually killed wasps...that's how nasty these certain spiders are... Then I was bitten very severely by them several times. They come in during the fall and nest in our home. One time was so bad that I missed a week of work, my leg was swollen and the bite was the size of a very large dinner plate.

My sister was hospitalized after such a bite. Because of this, I was more knowledgible and I recognize the bite immediately. I sought treatment...but still, it was horrid. If this had been my child, they may have become very severely ill as my sister, she lost a great portion of her inner thigh to a brown recluse bite.

I learn a very hard way...you can not allow the devil to roost outside your home on window ledge.

But, I do not kill anything unless it is a harmful thing and in position to harm. If I ran into a brown recluse in the woods, I would leave it in peace. We have moths in our home...and grandaddy long leg spiders.

NayaSurya
25 April 2010, 11:07 PM
Here is something that may help you from harming them, we use something similar to keep deer ticks off our children because of Lyme disease.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-brite-Spider-Natural-Repellent/dp/B001R1AQ5U

ScottMalaysia
26 April 2010, 05:10 AM
You should do your best to get rid of them without killing them. Use a jar to trap them, then slide some cardboard underneath to carry them outside. Or use a towel.

satay
26 April 2010, 09:30 AM
namaskar,

I would kill the spiders and any other things that are harmful for you and your family. We hindus are supposed to be practical in these matters. We are not buddhists or jains.

Ashvati
26 April 2010, 09:48 AM
namaskar,

I would kill the spiders and any other things that are harmful for you and your family. We hindus are supposed to be practical in these matters. We are not buddhists or jains.

heh I say again, even the dalai lama kills mosquitoes. As far as the jains, I can't say I know enough about them to agree or disagree. I may not think absolute ahimsa is practical, but I admire their effort.

satay
26 April 2010, 10:15 AM
namaskar,


heh I say again, even the dalai lama kills mosquitoes. As far as the jains, I can't say I know enough about them to agree or disagree. I may not think absolute ahimsa is practical, but I admire their effort.

Absolute ahimsa is nonsense, impractical and a disaster for the society. Look what it did to the buddhists. It got them kiced out of their land in China and made them refugees in India. Though I respect His Holiness Dalai Lama, Gandhi and the buddhists, I don't agree with their policy of absolute ahimsa. Jains even top the buddhists in this regard. They walk around wearing a mask because they don't want to harm bacteria that gets killed while breathing. Noble but impractical.

NayaSurya
26 April 2010, 12:44 PM
Oh, this subject keeps coming up, and I keep fighting my urge to post my ignorant philosophy on this matter, for fear it would cause upset. But as we delve further into the Buddhist situation I can only post it and pray it isn't offensive.

Here goes:P

The Buddha, walked upon the path of moderation..in all things. Sadly, others come along after a great leader's death and the teachings often change, this also changes the course of the movement.

His ancient words still urge the moderation, the middle road.

I wish one day that I could sit on the floor in front of His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and ask him of my thoughts, and if he would not agree. In my heart I hope.

Absolute ahimsa is impossible in my world...even when one would wear a mask. One must eat, and anytime we cut the earth open to grow plants we kill directly, and when we consume water and food we kill indirectly.

Every orange my child consumes is an orange not available for another creature...every drink of water...

To live is to harm, no creature on this planet does not trample upon another to some degree.

For me, the important part is in the trying to not, and accepting the cost, when this is not feasible.

Everything upon this planet is consumed by another. We consume the lettuce. The lettuce and the grass consume us...then cow consumes us...and so on.

"As I have eaten the grass, so let the grass consume me...and let the cow then consume us together...aum"

Nayindhe<3

(I consider lettuce a creature...I do not differentiate between creatures with cute smiles or human charactaristics and those without in this matter.)

I pull the weed so that the tomatoes will grow. That weed had seeds that the birds now can not eat and their child may starve...I never intend for the bird to starve...so I thow out seed after prayer each day. One can pay forward a debt.

The car on the highway hits birds, butterflies..deer...(this happened to us this past Winter. 2 deer (Bucks) running from hunters, nearly killed my husband when they slammed into the side of our vehicle going about 50 MPH). They were killed, thankfully my husband was spared. But we were sad for their deaths...it was very tragic. We pay this forward by feeding the deer carrots during harsh winter in our community. Many years we do this.

I killed a snake two years ago...it was going to bite my child. A copper head. As Arjuna stood ready to fight his own clan, I was horrified by the demand put in front of me. I try to hit above the snake with a rock to scare, as it came for my children. Then in the moment, it was killed.

Very unfortunate day.

Every drink of water ....every single thing we consume, every fresh breath of air...it is the cost of this lifetime. It is my job to make sure my life is worthy of my cost.

If it be that I am wrong and would come back in my next life as a poisonous spider who would bite a child, for killing one in this lifetime, then let me die at the hand of the noble Mother protecting her child.

I could find no more honorable death.

"Men, O Brahmana, while walking about hither and thither, kill numberless creatures lurking in the ground by trampling on them, and even men of wisdom and enlightenment destroy animal life in various ways, even while sleeping or reposing themselves. What hast thou to say to this?--The earth and the air all swarm with living organisms, which are unconsciously destroyed by men from mere ignorance. Is not this so? The commandment that people should not do harm to any creature, was ordained of old by men, who were ignorant of the true facts of the case.

For, O Brahmana, there is not a man on the face of this earth, who is free from the sin of doing injury to creatures. After full consideration, the conclusion is irresistible that there is not a single man who is free from the sin of doing injury to animal life. Even the sage, O good Brahmana, whose vow is to do harm to no creature, doth inflict injury to animal life. Only, on account of greater needfulness, the harm is less."

Mahabharata B3 sec.207

Eastern Mind
26 April 2010, 01:23 PM
Vannakkam:

If a spider was a harmful one, I would have no problem killing it. Fortunately where I live there are no harmful spiders. I think the biggest killer most of us have here in the west is the car. I just go along, and then complain later how hard it is to clean the windshield. So yes, it is very impractical. Yet, given an easy opportunity, I'll release them outside.

Aum Namasivaya

satay
26 April 2010, 04:57 PM
namaskar,


Yet, given an easy opportunity, I'll release them outside.

Aum Namasivaya

I would do the same.

ScottMalaysia
27 April 2010, 05:40 AM
So the way I see it from what people have written is that if the spiders are dangerous to you or your family (e.g. black widows) then it's all right to kill them, just like human intruders in some jurisdictions like the US.

But if they're not dangerous, then just put them outside. The same would go to any pests

sanjaya
28 April 2010, 08:36 PM
For what it's worth, this reminds e of a story from the Sri Sai Satcharita. I don't remember the details exactly, but I'll tell it as best as I can (I'll see if I can find the story later). Apparently there was a man in Shirdi who was expecting Sai Baba to come for his daily dakshina. He was cooking some sort of cakes in his kitchen, and was brushing away spiders who kept trying to crawl on them. Baba didn't arrive as expected, so the next day the man came to Baba's mosque to inquire as to his absense. Baba told him that he had indeed come, in the form of a spider. But the man had rejected Baba!

I'm not sure this story tells us not to kill spiders. Personally I'd kill the spiders too. But I do think that the Lord is trying to teach us to be mindful that everything is spiritual. The spiders we kill, and even the other animals or people we encounter, could be God in disguise.


namaskar,



Absolute ahimsa is nonsense, impractical and a disaster for the society. Look what it did to the buddhists. It got them kiced out of their land in China and made them refugees in India. Though I respect His Holiness Dalai Lama, Gandhi and the buddhists, I don't agree with their policy of absolute ahimsa. Jains even top the buddhists in this regard. They walk around wearing a mask because they don't want to harm bacteria that gets killed while breathing. Noble but impractical.

Yes, I agree. I personally have the greatest respect for the Dalai Lama and our Buddhist friends. But I don't share the Buddhists spiritual beliefs, because these beliefs are ultimately atheistic. I do not believe that even God sanctions absolute pacifism and nonviolence. Certainly we should lead peaceful lives and never start physical conflicts. But both the Ramayana and the Mahabharata teach us that there is a time for war. How much more should there be a time for killing spiders. Obviously I'd never go around indiscriminantly killing any animals, even spiders. But insects in the house are a health hazard, and need to be removed.

Ashvati
28 April 2010, 10:22 PM
At times I've jokingly threatened friends with violence and been asked "Isn't non-violence part of your religion?" by those who either knew a little about hinduism or thought it was the same as buddhism, and usually I tell them "Yes, part of it, but not all. There's a time and place for everything. One of our most important scriptures (the Gita) is basically Krishna convincing his best friend to fight in a war."

devotee
28 April 2010, 11:41 PM
Namaste all,

While Hindu Dharma advocates non-violence in general but when there are times you must fight the evil forces as Lord Krishna told Arjuna in BG. Taking shelter under the garb of Ahimsa is cowardice or foolishness in such cases.

I remember one story :

There was a devotee (I have forgotten his name) of Sri Ramkrishna Paramhansa. One night when he was trying to sleep he was badly troubled by the mosquitos. He wanted to kill them all ... but then he remembered his Guru's words that non-violence was of utmost importance in Saadhana. Now he had a doubt ... what to do with these mosquitoes ? If he doesn't do anything to kill them ... they will keep biting and will spread malaria & there may also be death ... if he kills then he is taking resort to himsa (violence) & that too killing of a life. He kept thinking and couldn't decide what to do.

It was nearly midnight but he was not able to sleep. So, he started wandering outside deeply thinking what to do. So, he thought to ask this question from Sri Ramkrishna himself. But he was again in dilemma : Will it be proper to disturb Master at this time ? He kept on thinking & finally halfheartedly he started walking towards Master's residence. When he reached at a distance from Sri Ramkrishna' room ... he saw that there was some light in his room ... & he could see the scene inside clearly. He stood beside the window so that Master was not disturbed and looked inside. He found that Master was awake & he was picking up bugs from his old blanket & killing those bugs one by one ! He was highly surprised ! .... He had never seen Master doing such a thing ... he even wondered how come Master's blanket was infested with bugs when it was well attended by so many devotees ... Suddenly as if a light filled his mind which dispelled all doubts .... this was Master's way of conveying the answer to the question which was bothering him ! He was satisfied ... he bowed to Ramkrishna in reverence ... and came back.

We should show sympathy to all creatures. We should not kill unnecessarily. We must practise non-violence in normal circumstances. However, our dharma changes with time and place. We cannot say we won't fight the enemy in the battlefield ... it is our duty to fight & kill the enemy if needed. Similary we must deal with our enemies in the animal world .... we resort to Ahmisa till they don't come our way & till we don't feel threatened by them.

OM

sambya
29 April 2010, 05:22 AM
the question thats been building up here is whether hinduism is all about absolute nonviolence as we see in jainism .

my answer , based on historical facts , would be a no . hinduism holds a more practical place in this matter . dharma of hinduism is a flexible term with varies with place and situations . hence non-violence(as a dharma) also varies with such changing circumstances .

this is noticable in so many aspects within hinduism(indian religions with some common base) ---- use of conch shells , use of deer skins as asanas or garments for brahmachaaris etc , use of tiger skin by shiva himself , animal sacrifice all bear testimony to relative show of non-violence . untill recently most sadhus had tiger skins as asanas to meditate upon . even kasturi is obtained by killing a musk deer . and kasturi is one among the ashta-gandhas(eight perfumes) offerable to vishnu !! maharajas of ancient hindu kingdoms took part in mrigaya ( hunting sport for pleasure ) . it was also considered a very natural thing for a king to do .

but killing for whim and without any reason is strictly forbidden . for those who want to stick to absolute non-violence , there's nothing wrong with it . its their belief . but it is not an absolute necessary .

NayaSurya
29 April 2010, 06:54 AM
the question thats been building up here is whether hinduism is all about absolute nonviolence as we see in jainism .

my answer , based on historical facts , would be a no . hinduism holds a more practical place in this matter . dharma of hinduism is a flexible term with varies with place and situations . hence non-violence(as a dharma) also varies with such changing circumstances.


Most here in America do not understand this, oh how I wish they could read your post...read this whole forum to know.

SD is like a finely sharpened precision tool. It has an intelligent design, a practical approach which applies to every single minute aspect of our lifetimes.

Many other religious philosophy use a dull machete....cutting wide swaths of doctrine that can never possibly relate to every single devotee.

sanjaya
29 April 2010, 12:09 PM
the question thats been building up here is whether hinduism is all about absolute nonviolence as we see in jainism .

my answer , based on historical facts , would be a no . hinduism holds a more practical place in this matter . dharma of hinduism is a flexible term with varies with place and situations . hence non-violence(as a dharma) also varies with such changing circumstances .

this is noticable in so many aspects within hinduism(indian religions with some common base) ---- use of conch shells , use of deer skins as asanas or garments for brahmachaaris etc , use of tiger skin by shiva himself , animal sacrifice all bear testimony to relative show of non-violence . untill recently most sadhus had tiger skins as asanas to meditate upon . even kasturi is obtained by killing a musk deer . and kasturi is one among the ashta-gandhas(eight perfumes) offerable to vishnu !! maharajas of ancient hindu kingdoms took part in mrigaya ( hunting sport for pleasure ) . it was also considered a very natural thing for a king to do .

but killing for whim and without any reason is strictly forbidden . for those who want to stick to absolute non-violence , there's nothing wrong with it . its their belief . but it is not an absolute necessary .

Yes, I think that's a good point. While I'm generally against killing animals, it doesn't mean I abstain from pharmaceuticals simply because they may have been tested on animals. We see in nature that animals kill one another for food. So it certainly can't be said that all killing of animals is unnatural. Perhaps what distinguishes humans from other animals is that we know how to do this ethically. Ahimsa, when taken to the extreme, would ultimately be deadly to us, and is not even what God seems to command. I too feel that it's important to apply common sense, and never to be fanatical about any belief.

satay
29 April 2010, 12:11 PM
I too feel that it's important to apply common sense, and never to be fanatical about any belief.

Amen!;)

sambya
29 April 2010, 01:46 PM
nayasurya . thanks . we're all here to discuss and benefit from the process . we learn till we die ..

:)

Prussian Princess
30 April 2010, 12:40 PM
I dont like spiders at all. I am very fearful, of them...I am scared that they will spin me in there webs and eat me.....:o

Ramakrishna
10 May 2010, 10:47 PM
Whenever there is a spider or any insect in the house and my father is around, he will pick them up in a rag and release them outside. When I was younger and my father wasn't around, I would just kill them. That was usually out of fear but also because I didn't know any better. Recently, I have been following my father and catching the insects and releasing them outside.

I agree with what everybody else is saying, that extreme ahimsa is not practical and unnecessary. I recently stumbled upon a Clint Eastwood quote and it sums up my belief: " I don't go for hunting. I just don't like killing creatures. Unless they're trying to kill me. Then that would be fine." I would never go hunting and deliberately go out of my way to kill any animals. Even if an animal "invades" my space, like a spider in my house, I would try not to kill it. But if it is a deadly animal or an animal that is a threat to my safety or those around me, then I will do what is necessary.

Recently in Ecology class, the teacher assigned a project where the students would have to go out and find insects, kill them, and pin their bodies for collection. I was opposed to this because it would involve me deliberately going out of my way to kill life, and that is not a practical violation of ahimsa. I talked to the teacher and she understood and gave me an alternate assignment.

sanjaya
11 May 2010, 01:25 AM
Recently in Ecology class, the teacher assigned a project where the students would have to go out and find insects, kill them, and pin their bodies for collection. I was opposed to this because it would involve me deliberately going out of my way to kill life, and that is not a practical violation of ahimsa. I talked to the teacher and she understood and gave me an alternate assignment.

You know, I remember that I was supposed to do that I fourth grade. I didn't have to, since my parents explained to my teacher that Hindus don't intentionally kill animals.

(Of course as an alternate assignment, I had to make crayon drawings of insects. I'll stop before I go on a rant on the absurdity of American grade school education.)

dead_man
01 June 2010, 01:58 PM
Did it occur to anyone that praying to the insects to leave the house might work? LIke a spell? worth experimenting, I would say.