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shian
28 April 2010, 09:59 PM
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

sanjaya
29 April 2010, 01:09 AM
Sadly, the Christian will simply respond that it's impossible to do the will of God without converting to Christianity.

shian
29 April 2010, 04:09 AM
They have right to have opinion about this verse,

but

we also can ask :
This verse is also said even "ONLY" become Christian we still cannot throught to Heaven

that is said "but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"

so which will of Father ?

is will who translated and explain by Catholic Roma ?
or
will who translated and explain by Penthakosta Christian ?
or
will who translated and explain by this clergyman ? or that clergyman ?

which will is original from Father ?

which one ?

or become people who does the will of Jesus's Father
must become Christian and baptised by this clergyman?
or that clergyman ?
or clergyman who still receive India tradition ?
or clergyman who reject India Tradition ?
which cruch have ability to give us baptist in the name of Father ?
is Catholich cruch ? is Protestant cruch ? is charismatic church ?

which one ????

or even babtist from clergyman who also do Buddhist and HIndu practice ??

which one is have original Father will ?

is clergyman who choosen by yourself (christian firends who talk with us) ??
why must choose your clergyman ?
is other clergyman is will burn in hell ?
is catholic will burned ?
why only you is right to talk about Father's will ?

the ending is , this people want you refuge in the name of his/herself.
not God

Tirisilex
30 April 2010, 09:06 PM
Those who do not do "my fathers will" will be essentially cast away.
If you re-examine Christs conception you will find that it wasn't the Hebrew God who inseminated Mary it was "The Holy Spirit" so thus Christs True Father is the Holy Spirit. Those who walk in Christs Saving EXAMPLE and Follow the Path of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5) Is doing the Will of Christs Father.

It mentions People Prophesying, Doing Miracles, Casting out Demons..(This sounds alot like many Charismatic Churches) But they missed the essential points of the Holy Spirit. One I like to point out is that it is of "Fleshly", "Demoniacal", "a Klesha" Creating Separatism. Christians are SOOOOO Guilty when it comes to that.

The Holy Spirit is obviosly considered more important because you can Blaspheme "God" you can Blaspheme Jesus but if You Blaspheme the Holy Spirit you may never get Forgiveness in this life. Why the harsh punishment if it wasnt more important??

Einherjar
03 May 2010, 05:22 PM
Those who do not do "my fathers will" will be essentially cast away.
If you re-examine Christs conception you will find that it wasn't the Hebrew God who inseminated Mary it was "The Holy Spirit" so thus Christs True Father is the Holy Spirit. Those who walk in Christs Saving EXAMPLE and Follow the Path of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5) Is doing the Will of Christs Father.

It mentions People Prophesying, Doing Miracles, Casting out Demons..(This sounds alot like many Charismatic Churches) But they missed the essential points of the Holy Spirit. One I like to point out is that it is of "Fleshly", "Demoniacal", "a Klesha" Creating Separatism. Christians are SOOOOO Guilty when it comes to that.

The Holy Spirit is obviosly considered more important because you can Blaspheme "God" you can Blaspheme Jesus but if You Blaspheme the Holy Spirit you may never get Forgiveness in this life. Why the harsh punishment if it wasnt more important??

Yet if you get into the Christian dogma, the trinity are differentiated but at their core the same being. So, according to them you would think that if you blaspheme one you blaspheme the others.

I, personally, find it hilarious that Christians will tell you that you HAVE to become a Christian in order to attain spiritual peace/heaven/salvation/whatever when Christ never demanded anyone to become baptized in his name. He taught people how to be better Jews.

Assuming he was an actual person and not an abstract representation of various kabbalistic concepts I would say he was a good guy but I really won't ever understand certain people's maniacal attachment to the Church doctrine which drastically strays from what is claimed within the texts of the tradition.

Ramakrishna
27 May 2010, 01:19 AM
Yet if you get into the Christian dogma, the trinity are differentiated but at their core the same being. So, according to them you would think that if you blaspheme one you blaspheme the others.

I, personally, find it hilarious that Christians will tell you that you HAVE to become a Christian in order to attain spiritual peace/heaven/salvation/whatever when Christ never demanded anyone to become baptized in his name. He taught people how to be better Jews.

Assuming he was an actual person and not an abstract representation of various kabbalistic concepts I would say he was a good guy but I really won't ever understand certain people's maniacal attachment to the Church doctrine which drastically strays from what is claimed within the texts of the tradition.

Namaste Einherjar,

Christ did demand that people be baptized in his name. That is evident in Matthew 28:19-20, which says "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Einherjar
27 May 2010, 04:40 AM
I stand corrected. I apparently did not think that statement through very well. =P Considering I have actually read through the entire new testament in my youth I am actually a little embarrassed I made that claim.

Ramakrishna
30 May 2010, 12:10 AM
I stand corrected. I apparently did not think that statement through very well. =P Considering I have actually read through the entire new testament in my youth I am actually a little embarrassed I made that claim.

You're fine. I just started reading through the New Testament fairly recently, so that was how I was able to know that exact verse. I definitely see what you're saying, though. Christ did say that only through him you will attain salvation, and he did demand that people be baptized in his name, but even though we as Hindus reject those stubborn, exclusive views, we can still learn from Christ. The Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount are just beautiful, and anybody can find inspiration from them, regardless of your religion.

Archimboldo
06 June 2010, 10:17 PM
Sadly, the Christian will simply respond that it's impossible to do the will of God without converting to Christianity.

Well, I know there are Christians who say that, but not all do. As with all religions, if you wish to know what their avatar taught, you have to experience the teaching by long or intense practice, not by the opinions of flawed men.

Would Krishna or Jesus judge a person by their theoretical beliefs or by what they do with their beliefs? I believe the answer is in the original quote of this thread.

Whether it is the Gita or the Bible, you have to read with intuition, or your "inward parts" knowledge.

Psalms 51:6
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Archimboldo
06 June 2010, 10:45 PM
Christ did demand that people be baptized in his name. That is evident in Matthew 28:19-20, which says "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Christ did ask that of His disciples, but this does not by any stretch of the imagination imply that He condemned anyone who does not call himself a Christian.

There are many Christian visionaries who have said that in their visions of Jesus or Mary, such as those in Medjugorje, they learned that God does not care what a person's sect or formal religion is.

Just to give one interpretation of baptism, to baptize means to purify and be renewed by the primordial love symbolized by water. "The highest good is like water. It flows in places men reject, and is so like the dharma." Amongst the many thoughtful commentators on the symbolism of water, the writings of Carl Jung are an example.

Ramakrishna
07 June 2010, 10:23 PM
Namaste Archimboldo,


Christ did demand that people be baptized in his name. That is evident in Matthew 28:19-20, which says "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Christ did ask that of His disciples, but this does not by any stretch of the imagination imply that He condemned anyone who does not call himself a Christian.

Christ never made it a habit of outright condemning people of other religions. But he did say in John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You would have to be a follower of Christ, or a Christian, in order to go "through" Christ to get to heaven. So basically Christ was saying that nobody goes to heaven unless they're Christian. And if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. Unless you're Catholic, where there is always the possibility of going to purgatory and then heaven.


There are many Christian visionaries who have said that in their visions of Jesus or Mary, such as those in Medjugorje, they learned that God does not care what a person's sect or formal religion is.


Do you have any information or websites about these visions? I would be interested in learning more. I have heard of Christian visions, but not about God not caring what religion a person is.

Hare Krishna

Archimboldo
08 June 2010, 02:20 AM
Christ never made it a habit of outright condemning people of other religions. But he did say in John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You would have to be a follower of Christ, or a Christian, in order to go "through" Christ to get to heaven. So basically Christ was saying that nobody goes to heaven unless they're Christian. And if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. Unless you're Catholic, where there is always the possibility of going to purgatory and then heaven.

John 14:6 doesn't say that you have to be a Christian, only that Jesus is the door to the Father. He would lead anyone to the Father, if only that person does the Will of the Father. A Buddhist or Hindu can do the Will of the Father even if he has a conception of our Father as, say, Vishnu. See my answer to your second question below for more on this.

I do not believe Siva would not bless a Vaishnava, or that Vishnu would not bless a Saiva. But I do believe that each, as an aspect of God Eternal Spirit, has their particular work. Siva to destroy what is false so that the true may be born, Vishnu to preserve the original virilities of our primordial beginnings ... etc. Similarly, while Jesus is the door to the Father, I cannot believe that Jesus would not lead a devoted Hindu to the Father, regardless of what name he calls the Father.

Do you have any information or websites about these visions? I would be interested in learning more. I have heard of Christian visions, but not about God not caring what religion a person is.

Mirjana Dragicevic, a visionary in Medjugorje said of her experience with Mary,

The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God, and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well. You do not really believe in God if you make fun of other religions.

The questioner than asked, What, then, is the role of Jesus Christ, if the Moslem religion is a good religion?

Answer: We did not discuss that. She merely explained, and deplored, the lack of religious unity, "especially in the villages." She said that everybody's religion should be respected, and, of course, one's own.

See http://www.medjugorje.eu/tabloid/

TatTvamAsi
09 June 2010, 12:27 AM
Well, I know there are Christians who say that, but not all do. As with all religions, if you wish to know what their avatar taught, you have to experience the teaching by long or intense practice, not by the opinions of flawed men.

What nonsense! There is not a single thing in the abrahamic religions that suggest "long or intense practice". That is complete misappropriation of Dharmic Sadhana into those desert cults.

Secondly, jesus was a charlatan who travelled to India between the ages of 13 and 29. Calling that joker an "avatar" is a great insult to Hindus. He simply learned the tenets of Hinduism/Buddhism in India and then pontificated on them as if it was his own idea. jesus, was most definitely a "flawed man" who plagiarized everything from India.

And christians have the audacity to claim their path is "true". What bilge!

Reading the bible or quran with Hindu viewpoint is pointless. The followers themselves don't do that and those who realized how puerile and idiotic abrahamic faiths (including judaism) are, they studied Hinduism and are trying to interpret their faiths with a Hindu perspective.

TatTvamAsi
09 June 2010, 12:28 AM
One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well.

So that proves what Nietschze said: "The first and last christian died on the cross!"

Ramakrishna
09 June 2010, 01:11 AM
So that proves what Nietschze said: "The first and last christian died on the cross!"

Exactly! Or like Mark Twain said: "There has been only one Christian. They caught and crucified him - early."

Ramakrishna
09 June 2010, 01:25 AM
John 14:6 doesn't say that you have to be a Christian, only that Jesus is the door to the Father. He would lead anyone to the Father, if only that person does the Will of the Father. A Buddhist or Hindu can do the Will of the Father even if he has a conception of our Father as, say, Vishnu. See my answer to your second question below for more on this.

I do not believe Siva would not bless a Vaishnava, or that Vishnu would not bless a Saiva. But I do believe that each, as an aspect of God Eternal Spirit, has their particular work. Siva to destroy what is false so that the true may be born, Vishnu to preserve the original virilities of our primordial beginnings ... etc. Similarly, while Jesus is the door to the Father, I cannot believe that Jesus would not lead a devoted Hindu to the Father, regardless of what name he calls the Father.



Namaste Archimboldo,

There are some Christians who believe that Christ can "lead" a non-Christian to the Father. However, they are very few in number. I happen to know one of them. He's an Episcopalian (one of the most open-minded Christian denominations) and he has a very liberal interpretation of John 14:6. He believes that Christ can lead non-Christians to salvation. Unfortunately, the high majority of Christians do not believe in that. They believe that if you do not accept Christ as your savior and if you do not believe that Christ died for your sins, then you are damned.

There are some Hindus who try really hard to reconcile Hinduism and Christianity. Some of them even accept Christ as an avatar of God. I almost became one of them once. But then I realized there was no point. There is a very strong argument that Christ in fact never existed. I am not sure what to think of that, but there are some people on these forums who can explain that POV to you. But at this point I really don't care. Sanatana Dharma has so much to offer and it is so rich and fulfilling. There is really no need at all to try and incorporate the teachings or ideas of some Jewish guy who may or may not have existed when there is so much already in Sanatana Dharma. Besides, all of the good and worthy teachings that Christ may have taught, are all already present in Sanatana Dharma.

Jai Sri Krishna

Archimboldo
09 June 2010, 01:31 AM
... jesus was a charlatan ... jesus, was most definitely a "flawed man" who plagiarized everything from India.

Reading the bible or quran with Hindu viewpoint is pointless. The followers themselves don't do that and those who realized how puerile and idiotic abrahamic faiths (including judaism) are ...

Wow. Bigoted much? There are great Hindus who had great respect for Jesus: Paramahansa Yogananda, Gandhi, Sri Ramakrishna. But apparently you know better than they do - and better than Jesus Himself.

I can see that this thread is nothing but a front for Anti-Christian hate. It is not a place to "discuss Christianity" as its title says, but to put it down. Glad at least that you are honest in your opinions so I don't waste more time here.

Adieu