Mixed Signals

[NayaSurya]

This is a deep problem lately for me and one I hope the wisdom of the forum could ease.

In one breath I hear the teacher say-
Deny your birth heritage, race, and inclinations toward a culture.
Give up western clothes, my own name given by my dead Mother...give up everything this lifetime has afforded this soul.

This is the way to enlightenment.

Then in another breath the teacher says-
You were born a woman, you must obey the laws of being a woman. You can not give up being a woman.
But I was born Kentuckian too and am told to give this up?

But these two thoughts contradict each other. God gave the gender, the culture as equal parts. You can not give up one and then be told to keep the other.

I have to give up the outter things...the culture of this lifetime...because it proves I would be better Hindu. But when I become more neutral in my gender and would like to have equal discourse with males...I am then shunned?

The soul is not Kentuckian...anymore than it is female.

It is soul.

So why should it be acceptable to give up name, heritage and other outward things of this lifetime...and yet not be allowed to give up the gender illusion?

Seems a double standard.

Also, I am instructed to give up western clothes because it is illusion, simply and attachment to this lifetime, but am encouraged to take up another culture's dress which I see as simply another attachment from a previous lifetime?

Another contradiction I can not solve.

The double standard that when I have visited the Temple I am asked if I know how to put on a Saree, yet my husband is never asked why he is not in traditional dress...in fact all men at Temple are in western clothes....all women but me and one other were in Saree.


I am very confused about this. At first I feel as if I should give up all inclinations to any culture...give up any inclinations to treat male/female any different from each other. Because the soul in this vessel feels this very neutral place. With every step I take towards this seems to be going against many many rules where I have been reading for many years.

But, as I try to do this, I realize I go against much of the teaching I have been given online.

What are your thoughts?

Is there a place where a female would be treated as nothing more than a soul in a vessel working on some female Karma and not subjugated like a second class citizen?

Is there a place that stops focusing on ridding a soul of the precious cultural experiences of this lifetime? A place that doesn't try to mold a soul into something God obviously didn't want them to be this lifetime?

How I feel is this.

I was put where I am for a reason...it's undeniable.

I was also given very early on the knowledge of SD without reading.

My inclination is to honor this location on my hill and learn from here...whatever it is God intends me to learn.

But, I would also like to transcend this culture and my gender here without covering it up with a new culture, or a new gender. Neutral...nothing more.

Because ultimately I am many names, many cultures...and genderless.

I am the one of many names MaleynaLanieLayNeolunaNayaSuryaMahalayaAmaVasyaNayindhe

Now, I am a Mother of 8 children and a wife so this means I must obey the rules of those relationships...and I do.

But my children often joke that I am a brave warrior...a DadMom because I will fix the bike, instruct the boys about how to carry themselves around females....I play pick up game of basketball...football...then bake a cake.

I take them camping...I ride the rollercoaster with hands in the air.

I show my sons how to shave.

My husband would also say I am a very good wife...lover and servant. I take all three very seriously.

This vessel is female with pony tails and pink fingernail polish...but the soul is just a soul...and I know this.

Where oh where is the place that will allow such a soul to be simply that?

[sanjaya]

This is a very complicated issue indeed. On the one hand, I freely confess that Hinduism is a characteristically Indian religion, and to Westernize it would be to take away its very essence. However, this buisness of denying one's own culture seems quite dubious to me. One of the charges that many of us Hindus (including myself) level against the Christians is that they're asking us to give up our culture. We can't turn around and ask Westerners to do the same thing. While the soul has no gender or culture, our bodies do. And we are born with some specific dharma. I agree that both culture and gender play a role in one's dharma.

For what it's worth, I always go to temples wearing Western clothes, and no one has told me to do differently.

[sambya]

identities of culture , nation , race , caste , sex or even reilgion itself are unreal in absolute sense of term . so when a person approaches towards god he must cast these aside . however that only happens in the highest stages of realization , when it comes about naturally . no one can forcefully stop oneself from identifying with these basic things . so thinking or devoting time to such petty things are not required .

wearing western clothes , or following western culture has nothing to do with enlightment . we as indian hindus also follow the culture of the land , and so do the western hindus .

the teacher is obviously taking a double standard . identification with gender is as much a hindrance as is identifications with nation or culture .

when a disciple of ramakrishna said to him how a certain individual has stopped taking onion and garlic in his quest for god , ramakrishna replied " such things are not so important . tyaga of onion garlic is a petty thing . real tyaga is of kaamini-kanchana(sexual lust and greed of money) . one who has renounced kamini-kanchana has already become the king of the world . "


therefore , renouncing your name , dress of cultural affiliation are not needed immideately . when time is ripe and we are on the threshold of moksha , such vain identifications would drop off easily .

[NayaSurya]

This is a very complicated issue indeed. On the one hand, I freely confess that Hinduism is a characteristically Indian religion, and to Westernize it would be to take away its very essence. However, this buisness of denying one's own culture seems quite dubious to me. One of the charges that many of us Hindus (including myself) level against the Christians is that they're asking us to give up our culture. We can't turn around and ask Westerners to do the same thing. While the soul has no gender or culture, our bodies do. And we are born with some specific dharma. I agree that both culture and gender play a role in one's dharma.

For what it's worth, I always go to temples wearing Western clothes, and no one has told me to do differently.



Because I am grateful to both of your wise thoughts I would like to address them separately.


Here, and even in Hindu lessons, I have been instructed to embrace the Indian clothes. While I love them, I own numerous saree they are not clothes of this lifetime.

At temple I was approached by only other anglo and suggested to only wear saree to Temple. So this is where the confusion lies.

Also, I have not thrown away the duty of this gender, I respect the duty...but one day...about 20 years from now...Insha' allah that I live to see this day.

I will totally be able to follow this in the way I feel urged to do. With the duty so heavy in front of me...I can only think of this day and do nothing more.




identities of culture , nation , race , caste , sex or even reilgion itself are unreal in absolute sense of term . so when a person approaches towards god he must cast these aside . however that only happens in the highest stages of realization , when it comes about naturally . no one can forcefully stop oneself from identifying with these basic things . so thinking or devoting time to such petty things are not required .

wearing western clothes , or following western culture has nothing to do with enlightment . we as indian hindus also follow the culture of the land , and so do the western hindus .

the teacher is obviously taking a double standard . identification with gender is as much a hindrance as is identifications with nation or culture .

when a disciple of ramakrishna said to him how a certain individual has stopped taking onion and garlic in his quest for god , ramakrishna replied " such things are not so important . tyaga of onion garlic is a petty thing . real tyaga is of kaamini-kanchana(sexual lust and greed of money) . one who has renounced kamini-kanchana has already become the king of the world . "


therefore , renouncing your name , dress of cultural affiliation are not needed immideately . when time is ripe and we are on the threshold of moksha , such vain identifications would drop off easily .


This is the core of the problem, They did drop away very easily. My whole life has been one endless prayer to God.

The culture was dissolved over the course of this past year unintentionally from going to the Temple...and the name went away at 13 years old... the gender was also long ago dissolved into pure duty.

I did not force it, it came about over many years. It is the world who tells me different. It tells me to pick up another culture. Treats me differently because of gender.

In my home the reality of my neutrality is set to act. As I say before, my family knows me by the many names, if you were to call me turnip I would accept.


The world puts the lable on my package and I simply am here to ask...where do I go? How can I respond to that?

I respond by overthinking. I begin to worry...is it wrong to be so neutral?

When one has no ego, it is natural to accept you are wrong and try to correct.

Is there a place where the body no longer matters and the soul is welcomed. Are there places where such souls can meet?

I had 200 friends on facebook. Every single one Christian. Every single one of them knew me not... Recently I walk away from it. I turn the television off. The radio is no more... These things are nothing more than distraction.


Here, there is no seeking to join back with Siva just yet, it's not my purpose. (hopefully no one will think that stupid) My purpose is to serve Him. There is no pressure for moksa for this piece of Siva, only service.


Being that the ego is depleated it is easy to tell you of the vision I have while in daily chanting and not worry if you think me deranged. Sometimes I am almost compelled to speak of them because I am trying to find the others who would know what I am to do.

I sit at Siva's feet daily in prayer. There are three thrones side by side with giant blue beings. Siva has two others who sit beside him. Who they are.. I do not know. I am too frightened to look closer than I have. I stay closely at his feet. Their piercing eyes are stars shining like the sun at dawn. Though I know he must know I am there, he never takes his eyes off the universe. He looks straight ahead. They are so still, they remind me of ancient machines. The vibration is unbelievable.

Though they do not move their gaze, sometimes I know a hand is upon me. It appears to me God meditates on the universe very very intensly. The first time I ever saw it...I thought I would die. People use the phrase "Put the fear of God into you" and I never understand this shallow expression. Until I see them sitting there in such a way. I was afraid as if I was seeing my own death.

It was very shocking to me, I always had imagined God being a big enormous blob of white energy shining in the center of the universe.:P


Today I am heartened by your words, I deeply sincerely thank you for taking the time to help me.

You both have given me something I could not find here alone.

It is the peace of mind that what has happened to me is okay. Not to allow the lables and misguided information to affect the natural course of this. Perhaps being so isolated on this hill has been God's way of allowing me to come to this understanding without the outside world's pressure.


You have my heart for your wisdom.

It would be nice to find kindred kind...to learn more. Forgive the silly soul.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Naya:

I wear veshti every time I go to the temple to worship. I do that for two reasons" One is because for me now, it is like taking bath, it is how I feel comfortable in a temple. But I've been wearing one for a long time now. Only one or two other men including all the Indian ones wear one. My thoughts are "Somebody should, it is a tradition, if we let that one erode, then what comes next?" and eventually the place is turned into an unholy place to meet and talk, which I've also seen.

In my opinion, Indian women are just much stronger at maintaining the traditions. Another factor could be the finding of good saris versus good veshtis here in the west. I cannot purchase proper South Indian veshti in Edmonton, but there are probably 20 sari shops.

Even on pilgrimage to Omaha, and Salt lake City, I surprised all the men by wearing veshti. Even in the great temples of TN, veshti has become the minority choice.

But at working time at temple (landscaping) and at home I am a jeans guy totally. Its all I own. (Well I do own a suit, but the pudge has made it unwearable, so I should give it to Goodwill)

As far as instructions go, the operative word is 'encourage' not 'must do'. I made that mistake for awhile. Thes cultural 'tag-along' things like food, clothing, speaking with opposite genders, etc. do take time. I've been at it over 30 years and still make errs quite often.

Really there should be no confusion. The temple is God's house. The people may think it is their house, but it is God's house. Whatever the devotee wears is acceptable to God. So here we have jeans, dress suits, even leather. There is no rule. Only unwritten guidelines. Immodest dress would be dealt with, maybe. I know it is difficult some days, but really it is no one's business. My wife still gets people coming up and offering 'free'advice. In one ear and out the other, I say. Heck, some men even advise me on the gardening. "Why don't you grow rudraksha? How about a leechee tree? Watermelon, anyone? Bananas? I don't bother to say, "Go away! This is Canada. It freezes in late May, and early September. I was raised on a farm here so I know." The 'in one ear and out the other' method works better.

Is your temple a daily one or a Sunday only one?

Ours is a daily one. As I was there this morning, a Mandarin day-home in the vicinity with 6 tots aged about 2 to 4 who go on their morning walks came in. Three days ago they each planted a potato in our garden. (With somebody's help) Today they all waddled like little ducklings into the temple, went downstairs, removed jackets. At the end of the puja, priest put vibhuthi on their heads, and I had the honour of marking the third eye on each of them with kumkum. The day-home Mom was all smiles. I hope she mentioned it to parents before coming and I hope she doesn't get in trouble for it from one of the parents.

Regarding conflict or apparent contradiction in the teachings, it is all just Siva's Cosmic Dance, and for you to sort out. I've been there. It does get sorted out as the truth is in your own spine. But go ahead, ask for clarification. I disagree on about 3% of things.

Sorry for rambling.

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

You will find me barefoot about 90% of a week.

This soul is also a gardener...my tomato plants sit on the porch as we speak waiting for the 75 pounds of cow poop from our local green house. We have to plant tomorrow, it already so late.

I have several beautiful south silk unsewn saree that I have never worn. They are works of art.:P

The temple here is very busy, full of every God. They serve even the Jain. So it's open all week and often crowded.

Watermelon even difficult to grow here in warm Ky. They want much sun and heat. Something we don't always have.

Ty for rambling<3
:p

[devotee]

Namase NayaSurya,

Sanmbya has already given a small but very good opinion on this issue. EM too has given excellent advice. I will add my two cents here :

The teacher is adopting double standard ... there is no doubt about it. It is heartening to learn that you are a brave & multiskilled person who can go beyond the illusory barriers of gender. Now to your doubts :

a) It is simply not important what you wear, which language you talk to God in, what your social customs are etc. ... First of all, Social customs, regulations etc. have little to do with spirituality. Let me assure you that in India, though most of the women wear Saree, there is big group which doesn't and they are still Hindu. Saree is not a convenient dress for those living in the Himalyas valleys. During my stay in Himalayan valleys, I didn't see women wearing sarees at all. The women of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, J&K etc. normally don't wear saree. Similarly, there are not many male Hindus who wear Dhoti/Vesti. In fact, there would be very few percentage of males who might be knowing how to wear a dhoti ! There is saying in Hindi that means, "It is futile to change the color of your dress if you don't change your heart" ( Sannyaasis (renunciates) wear saffron color dress to show their detachment from this world. However, just by wearing a saffron colored dress you don't become a sannyaasi. So, the saying is, "Man na rangaaye rangaaye jogi kapada !")


Hinduism doesn't force a dress-code on its followers as there is no "ism" to begin with. There is no authority like Church or Pope or Mullah to say you do this or that.

If you feel strongly about it, you should not do it. However, my dear NS, it is better to dress the way people dress when we are with a certain type of people. Like, if I go to a western club and insist on wearing a dhoti because I am an Indian, I would be unnecessary attracting attention of everyone around and that would not let me enjoy the club activity & that would spoil my evening. Why fight a mental battle over a dress ? If you do that it may disturb your peace. Like you said, "You are without any labels of a particular race, gender or whatever" ... if that is true, how does it matter if you wear a saree or a western dress ? If that affects you, that shows your attachment to that ... is it more important than spirituality and your aim ?

So, though no one should dictate you on this matter ... if mental peace can be bought at such a small price of just changing one's dress ... imho, I would have gone for it if I would have been in your place.

b) Regarding your duty as a woman :

You are already doing it in a great way ! Hats off to you !! I don't know what else a woman can do. You are taking care of 8 children and your husband ... that is great ! You are admired by your husband as a great wife & by your children as a great mom .... that should make you feel proud of being excellent in your role.

Please don't get disheartened or distracted by what some eccentric people say to you. Spirituality has nothing to do with your dress or your gender ... so, do keep meditating on Lord Shiva as you do in whatever dress you feel comfortable. And let no one tell you how and what you should do as a woman ... you are a woman & you know it better.

Cheer up, sister ! The rose plants giving us beautiful flowers have thorns too. So, is this world around us. We should accept them with a smile & not fight with them. :)

OM

[smaranam]

Dear NayaSurya, namaste,

I would add just one more thing :

All these concerns are no concerns if one pays attention to KrshNa's msg ..... The Bhagavad Gita is an answer to all worldly situations IMHO. NishkAm Karma, svadharma, bhakti, jnana : yog

We are not the body, we are AtmA, but we have roles to play. And many many hats to wear. And you are indeed wearing them and carrying them beautifully. Hats off to you. :)

So i don't think its a double standard - if its a teacher/Guru and well wisher who's saying this..

What they mean is , stay dettached from within, thinking oneself as aspects of the body is ignorance. Yet, we have to perform nishkAm karma (duties without expectations) in the world and set the right example and follow rules of the world. For women its stri-dharma.

Rules does not mean sari. The purpose is a modest dress as well as tradition. How about Salwar Kameez ? Not designer wear salwars like the actresses, that would defeat the purpose. I cannot believe anyone would say no to a modest salwar kameez. Not saying western dresses are not modest, but perhaps its a relative concept coming from Vedic culture for reasons. I am only speculating on what the reasons could be.

Krshna says "sarva dharma parityaja mameka sharaNam vraja. Aham tvam savra papebhyo mokshyashmi ma sucha" - surrender to Me leaving all dharmas. Don't worry , I shall relieve you of sins. BG18.66
But surrendering to Bhagavan is not a joke as we know. Its one word like a heavy ball of fire holding all energy.

Gopis were not attached to their duties, but they never left the norms of their society. They always had their veil on the head, always respected all elders. Radha was the epitome of bhakti , arAdhanA. Her mother-in-law would scream , shout at her, she would listen in silence. All for Krshna. Any such pain was insignificant and drowned in Love of Krshna.

Gopis' love for Krshna was priti, transcendental, not worldly. They did all their chores , duties acc. to societial norms. Their heart was not in the technicalities of it - but always mediating on Krshna.

Hugs, my friend.
I used to get worked up over what people say. My problem was - wanted to make all happy , and wanted everyone to understand and not misunderstand. Silly. Then Govinda , Adi Purusha , came by and blew it all away ... well the test is not over yet....

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Smaranam, sambya you two nailed my point, before I could even say it, but here it goes!!!
In one breath I hear the teacher say-
Deny your birth heritage, race, and inclinations toward a culture.
Give up western clothes, my own name given by my dead Mother...give up everything this lifetime has afforded this soul.

This is the way to enlightenment.

Then in another breath the teacher says-
You were born a woman, you must obey the laws of being a woman. You can not give up being a woman.
But I was born Kentuckian too and am told to give this up?

You dont have to give up western clothing. There is always reasons for making rules and regulations. But don't fight over for that. No temple in India that 'I know of' says you don't have to wear western clothes for women (That doesn't mean people can come in offensive western clothing :laugh:). How sane does it sound to give up everything, just think about it. Giving up everything includes, giving up the love towards god, giving up the desire of wanting knowledge. Giving up your birth heritage is forgetting your mother, which is forgetting Shiva/Krishna. You should not give up everything, there are only a few things you and I and all of us have to give up. It is our own ignorance, the way we do that is by losing our ego. When we lose ego, we either become innocent or knowledgible or both, but we lose ignorance, and slowly lose our maya and slowly proceed towards god. I repeat, you don't have to give up anything, except the things 'not required.'

You have to understand the concept of Vairagya of Hinduism. Its goes like this, We have to be like a swan or a lotus in a lake which is untouched by the mud and water of the lake. The lake is the material world, the swan or lotus is how we should be. You have to blend in with the society, like a swan or a lotus in a lake, yet at the same time, be away from the material realm (there is an exception, you should not blend in with a society, if it means that you have to completely become ignorant and evil).

You may ask, How is it that we become a swan or a lotus (staying in the materialistic maya and yet being untouched by it)
The answer is that all you have to do is have a Sthita Pragyna, that is a state of stationary consciousness on god. You must keep your mind, intellect and your very own existance on the love of god :). That is what both Shankaracharya and Madhwacharya have stressed.
The stupidest thing I keep hearing till date is "LEAVE ALL YOUR DESIRES." :Roll: You Know I have tried that once. Once, you leave all your desires you become a non living thing with no soul. You have to become more lively just like god (he is infinitely full of life), not a forever dead non living soul-less thing :po:! This is one of the many reasons that I dont accept Buddhism.
Both god and non living things don't experience pain, but which is better I ask?

You ask->

Is there a place that stops focusing on ridding a soul of the precious cultural experiences of this lifetime? A place that doesn't try to mold a soul into something God obviously didn't want them to be this lifetime?

Yes, I do know of such a place, but its not a physical and materialistic maya. I think you get this point.

The natural bad tendency of men is they put logic in to everything, sometimes it becomes ill-logic.... The natural bad tendency of women is that they accept anything thrown at them..... Both logic and non-logic part should be at a balance. We all must use both the halves of the cerebrums.

You then said->
Now, I am a Mother of 8 children and a wife so this means I must obey the rules of those relationships...and I do.

But my children often joke that I am a brave warrior...a DadMom because I will fix the bike, instruct the boys about how to carry themselves around females....I play pick up game of basketball...football...then bake a cake.

I take them camping...I ride the rollercoaster with hands in the air.

I show my sons how to shave.

My husband would also say I am a very good wife...lover and servant. I take all three very seriously.

This vessel is female with pony tails and pink fingernail polish...but the soul is just a soul...and I know this.

Where oh where is the place that will allow such a soul to be simply that?

Again I answer, I know such a place, and so do you.

The reason, we are born again and again and stuck here literally is that we have pending Karma.
There are three types. I'm sure, most of you know it;
Sanchita(the ones, we've already experienced), Prarabdha(the ones we are experiences presently) and Agami(those of which awaiting to be experienced).

The way to destroy Sanchita is to have a Stitha Pragyna on God (mentioned above). The way to destroy Agami is that we pray to God, that it would not happen and gain knowledge. Prarabhdha can't be destroyed. Only we can have patience, and we must ask him to give the strength to face it.

To become Sthita Pragyna, we have to have use Karma against Karma and dissolve Karma, That is we have to do our duties. This is Karma Yoga.
Agami can be prevented by Jnana Yoga (Knowledge Yoga).
And Prarabhdha, the toughest to deal with by only Bhakti Yoga!
Yoga means 'a way to unite' or 'to meet our true destiny'.

All religions deal with these Yogas. Hinduism is probably the only religion to deal with all three Yogas. '


I still feel I haven't helped enough and have still got something missing to tell here.

[NayaSurya]

Oh Upsy, you come when I was posting so I reply here at the top. This soul is a bit of a renegade. If Siva bore me a thousand times upon this hill I would thank him and enjoy the experience of serving. He can send me to clean the toilet...or wipe the child's bottom. For over 21 years I changed diapers for children...Since I was 16! (The first child I helped raise was my neice at 16 her Mom was broken)

Like I say above...Moksa...not so imperitive to simply helping guide the ones under me along their way. We all come together...we all leave together. I will not leave them behind. Siva can take me out tomorrow...he may. This is the nature of our relationship. All things are in His hands. I have an agreement with Him.

If he would just give me my place I will cease the search. He says...if you knew...you would not be satisfied where you are. To this I say...if I become disatisfied then you can take me out and we repeat the lesson. He says to this..it will take time to show you. Ahh now this is where my greatest lesson still lingers....in the patience.

I am writing all the day now...and each time I write I am given words. I look the word up and it tells me something I need...or I will see that another has posted on this word the same day it is written.

Yesterday I got a private message on here, the person used two words I wrote down yesterday morning....I did not tell the friend that did this. As I believe it's more something to show me..."Look see? I can show you things this way if you pay attention." So I pay close attention. I also tell you all way more than is comfortable, in the hopes someone will recognize me and let me know. By recognize...I do mean the soul that is typing through this vessel.

As to the other things.

When the ego is gone...many times you will question your own knowledge. This happens daily. Self evaluation...always.
Knowing that this soul is in the animal vessel mistakes are easy to make.

Upsy, if you met me in real life you would see a very logical woman who questions everything. This is why I post:p
Inside there is no nervous female...no strong man. Just the center.


My Mother always called me the "pleaser" because I always want to serve everyone and make them happy. This is a trait of the inner being that always remains. To make others happy, is a blessed duty.


Thank you so much from the wellspring of this soul. You all have made this servant very joyous today. Knowing I that I am not offending the Beloved. This is all I need to maintain my course.

Since I can not give you a hug I will give you my heart<3

[smaranam]

~~~~deleted

[Hiwaunis]

This is a deep problem lately for me and one I hope the wisdom of the forum could ease.

In one breath I hear the teacher say-
Deny your birth heritage, race, and inclinations toward a culture.
Give up western clothes, my own name given by my dead Mother...give up everything this lifetime has afforded this soul.

This is the way to enlightenment.

Then in another breath the teacher says-
You were born a woman, you must obey the laws of being a woman. You can not give up being a woman.
But I was born Kentuckian too and am told to give this up?

But these two thoughts contradict each other. God gave the gender, the culture as equal parts. You can not give up one and then be told to keep the other.

I have to give up the outter things...the culture of this lifetime...because it proves I would be better Hindu. But when I become more neutral in my gender and would like to have equal discourse with males...I am then shunned?

The soul is not Kentuckian...anymore than it is female.

It is soul.

So why should it be acceptable to give up name, heritage and other outward things of this lifetime...and yet not be allowed to give up the gender illusion?

Seems a double standard.

Also, I am instructed to give up western clothes because it is illusion, simply and attachment to this lifetime, but am encouraged to take up another culture's dress which I see as simply another attachment from a previous lifetime?

Another contradiction I can not solve.

The double standard that when I have visited the Temple I am asked if I know how to put on a Saree, yet my husband is never asked why he is not in traditional dress...in fact all men at Temple are in western clothes....all women but me and one other were in Saree.


I am very confused about this. At first I feel as if I should give up all inclinations to any culture...give up any inclinations to treat male/female any different from each other. Because the soul in this vessel feels this very neutral place. With every step I take towards this seems to be going against many many rules where I have been reading for many years.

But, as I try to do this, I realize I go against much of the teaching I have been given online.

What are your thoughts?

Is there a place where a female would be treated as nothing more than a soul in a vessel working on some female Karma and not subjugated like a second class citizen?

Is there a place that stops focusing on ridding a soul of the precious cultural experiences of this lifetime? A place that doesn't try to mold a soul into something God obviously didn't want them to be this lifetime?

How I feel is this.

I was put where I am for a reason...it's undeniable.

I was also given very early on the knowledge of SD without reading.

My inclination is to honor this location on my hill and learn from here...whatever it is God intends me to learn.

But, I would also like to transcend this culture and my gender here without covering it up with a new culture, or a new gender. Neutral...nothing more.

Because ultimately I am many names, many cultures...and genderless.

I am the one of many names MaleynaLanieLayNeolunaNayaSuryaMahalayaAmaVasyaNayindhe

Now, I am a Mother of 8 children and a wife so this means I must obey the rules of those relationships...and I do.

But my children often joke that I am a brave warrior...a DadMom because I will fix the bike, instruct the boys about how to carry themselves around females....I play pick up game of basketball...football...then bake a cake.

I take them camping...I ride the rollercoaster with hands in the air.

I show my sons how to shave.

My husband would also say I am a very good wife...lover and servant. I take all three very seriously.

This vessel is female with pony tails and pink fingernail polish...but the soul is just a soul...and I know this.

Where oh where is the place that will allow such a soul to be simply that?

Pranam NayaSurya
Being a female I'd like to add my 2 pennies.
I can see giving up the western dress. In general females wear clothing that is revealing in the west. Worst case senario Aretha Franklin. (Google Aretha Franklin Images) A saree covers our body a little more. There are exceptions to that of course. There is still some skin showing.

As for the name. You can't help but notice that most hindu's are named after some form of God. This is great because now your friends and family are always chanting God's name. Our name should be something that guides through Maya.

There is good as well as bad in most cultures. The thing to do is discrimminate. For example, you wouldn't really want to be a sati with 8 children still depending on you.

It's great to know that you have a loving husband. Mine was not! I had no problem telling him that I was going to live a spiritual life and that includes celebacy and at the end of the college semester me and the kids are out of here. I left him. But you know nothing happens that wasn't meant to happen.

I think it would be very difficult for mankind to see females as souls. First you have to see yourself as a soul and then men have to see themselves as souls also. Self realization is the ultimate goal of life. As long as there is karma you will be seen as the actress and not the soul.

But you know what? The Brahma Kumaris are taught to leave their family and live as souls with other Brahma Kumaris. They seem to have a large following.

None the less just keep doing what you are doing. It will all fall into place one day.

Kind of off the subject.... I've always wanted to grow flowers in my apartment but I am afraid the ants will move in with me. Any suggestions?

Namaste

[devotee]

There is good as well as bad in most cultures. The thing to do is discrimminate. For example, you wouldn't really want to be a sati with 8 children still depending on you.


Oh My God ! You think it is common in Hindus to be Sati ? Or do you think that Hindu Dharma says so ?

Sati practice born out of social compulsions in North Western part of India (called Rajasthan) during attacks by the Muslims invaders on India. After the war if the Hindu King was defeated, all the women in the King's family would be treated like sex-slaves by those invaders. That was worse than death for those Kshatriya queens. So, they would indulge in Jauhar i.e. self-immolation after husband's death to avoid living such a pitiable life.

The Rig Veda encourages widowed women to marry again and not remaining attached to the dead husband.

OM

[Hiwaunis]

Oh My God ! You think it is common in Hindus to be Sati ? Or do you think that Hindu Dharma says so ?

Sati practice born out of social compulsions in North Western part of India (called Rajasthan) during attacks by the Muslims invaders on India. After the war if the Hindu King was defeated, all the women in the King's family would be treated like sex-slaves by those invaders. That was worse than death for those Kshatriya queens. So, they would indulge in Jauhar i.e. self-immolation after husband's death to avoid living such a pitiable life.

The Rig Veda encourages widowed women to marry again and not remaining attached to the dead husband.

OM

Pranam Devotee,
No, I don't think that Sati is common in Hindi. I just used that as an example because I couldn't think of anything else bad about India. I have read lately that women are encouraged to remarry and are doing so.

I never knew the history behind Sati I just thought that it was something a few small villages used to practice. Every now and then there will be something in the news about ones husband dieing and the wife committing suicide. But those are isolated incidents.

As far as I am concerned there is not too much anyone can say bad about India that won't send me running to its defense. I do thank you for also defending Mata Bharat.

Namaste

[sambya]

sati , orthodox casteism , untouchability all grew out of what was originally noble ideals . it was at a time when india had already stepped into the darkest chapter of its ancient history . no nation can remain on the top for indefinite period . the wheels of time are turning constantly . compared to other nations india had enjoyed luxury and prosperity longer than any other civilization . it was with the mohammedan conquests that the downfall set in ..........reached a pinnacle during the british era ...........and started to dissapear by mid 20th century . now its limping back to what it once was !

so out of all the malpractices that you will find in india most can seen to have originated during that short period of depression .

[NayaSurya]

Thank you for your advice and kind words.

Ants are easy to fix problem. They are scent driven animals and you can take a bottle of vinegar water and spray at thresholds of doorways and other places they come in...it will drive them away without harming. Also, it is very important to buy a bag of soil and not use some from outdoors. That way you have less likelyhood of bringing some in with you. Other than that you should be able to do it with no problem.

As for this other conversation. I have a deep issue with how the Hindu were murdered in Kasmir and since I was a child have spoken out about it. People do not understand when muslim forces come in they forced conversion or death. Most chose death.

I look to my family this moment and know...that if given that same choice. There too, would be no choice to make.

Throughout time the Mother has been bombarded by barbarians, and throughout time she self corrects. So that the truth never dies.

[Ashvati]

Since the subject was brought up, is it contradictory that I hate the ritual of Sati, yet consider the story that supposedly inspired it to be my favorite story about Shiva?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Ashvati:

It's only contradictory if its contradictory to you.


For me personally, sati is never in my mind, I'm sort of sorry it even came up here. It is another sad idea from our past times of wars and troubles. The stories are just stories. I'd rather sit for 3 hours in front of a lingam or a neditation grove than read a story.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ashvati]

I love stories, but I understand that they don't do as much for you as meditation or puja. Which I'm sure is why I have such a hard time getting a good translation of the Shiva Puran.

And I guess it doesn't seem contradictory to me, since the ritual and the story have such different contexts. The only similarity is dedication and immolation.

Oh, and as far as the ants, yeah, the solutions Nayasurya gave should do if you would rather not buy ant traps. I'm sure most here would rather avoid that as well.

[smaranam]

Namaste



You may ask, How is it that we become a swan or a lotus (staying in the materialistic maya and yet being untouched by it)
The answer is that all you have to do is have a Sthita Pragyna, that is a state of stationary consciousness on god. You must keep your mind, intellect and your very own existance on the love of god :). That is what both Shankaracharya and Madhwacharya have stressed.

That was a good explanation upsy


The stupidest thing I keep hearing till date is "LEAVE ALL YOUR DESIRES." :Roll: You Know I have tried that once. Once, you leave all your desires you become a non living thing with no soul. You have to become more lively just like god (he is infinitely full of life), not a forever dead non living soul-less thing

Leave all desires - vAsanA, is a more loaded statement than it looks on the surface. It can be looked at in two ways.

1. The wandering advadhoot has no desires like what you are describing, but experiences bliss nevertheless. Its complete nivrtti, and rare.

2. It means , leave all material or selfish desires of the individual. Then surfaces what is called spiritual desires. What are they ? Alignment with the desires of the Universal SELF, with Bhagvan's desires. One may argue - but the Universal SELF or Bhagavan has no desires. His desires are for the good of the Universe, and our spiritual desire would be to be a part of that scheme and not go against it.
So it means marching in step with Him. For which individual ego has to be transcended, as you have mentioned earlier.

When it comes to between devotee and God, its a tug of war to fulfill the other's desire.

That is what no desire means. That is why jiva is called 'tatstha shakti' - sitting on the fence between material and spiritual. When acting upon selfish whim - jiva is in the material world. When acting for the Lord and His Universe, jiva is in the spiritual world.




To become Sthita Pragyna, we have to have use Karma against Karma and dissolve Karma, That is we have to do our duties. This is Karma Yoga.
Agami can be prevented by Jnana Yoga (Knowledge Yoga).
And Prarabhdha, the toughest to deal with by only Bhakti Yoga!
Yoga means 'a way to unite' or 'to meet our true destiny'.

I like that.
I was thinking of agami in another context, then come here to find what you have written. Would also add that Agami karma can be prevented i.e. not pulling the arrow from the quiver , also by sAdhanA-bhakti , i.e. praying to the Lord to help, which is a component of surrender, and also a part of the Jnana path.

Many times , we do very well in the company of some (best example - sadhu sang) , but not in the company of some others (especially those who perceive us critically or unreasonably but are more materially oriented , and not into spirituality). What causes this ? Negative forces around us as well as our past karma. To alleviate both, we ask Bhagavan to help us, handing it all over to Him as helpless beings.
The understanding and knowledge of jnana, takes the pain away by breaking the connection with body-mind-intellect and its actions. So does surrender and bhakti.

[NayaSurya]

There is a feeling of having a foot firmly planted in both fields of this universe. I must keep the foot in one, for everytime I look into my children's eye I see that I have this great duty. The other place, full of peace and bliss...I would keep both feet there forever. One day there will be a time for such a thing.

For now I have spent the day at the Lousiville Zoo...crying over animals I can not help. I sat with a silverback gorrilla today. It had it's back against the plexi glass and was sitting as Mahayogi. The children slammed hands against the glass trying to make it look at them. It looked out into a false savanah and never took it's eyes from this....despite the crashing against it's head.

I knelt down beside it on my knees and put my hand upon it's back. I closed my eyes and searched for that being I know would answer. It turned and looked me right in the eye. We sat together for several moments until I almost cried.

For, it was then that I realized I am that very child...slamming against the glass of the beloved Lords home. When I only have to kneel down to meet His blessed gaze.

I find myself crying as I write this, perhaps it's far too personal for this forum. But you see this soul has lost the ability to put on a show and make others think I am wonderful. So the story is told, and I may look a fool....but lesson is understood, and the imperfect animal will try harder to kneel and not bang.

----

I started out trying to say that I spent the day with my 2 happy twins who are in kindergarten and had a field trip to the zoo...and that during that trip I felt very much bothered by this mundane activity. I missed morning prayer for this trip and now it will be done at night...which is not good for me. But then I see them so happy and I know this service is to God.

But then I get sidetracked about the gorilla...and you know I forget what it was I was trying to say:P

Basically, it is hard to go through motions of normal life when every moment, every step...in my heart I pray.

When the foot comes out of this physical reality around me....my children bring it back down firmly. Thank goodness...for now is a time for children.

....and may God allow me to see the day when it will be time to leap into the air and lose the world completely. Insha' Allah that I may live to see this day.

Om namaha Sivaya