Jesus and Advaita

[paritraana]

The parables of Jesus can be interpreted in the light of Advaita philosophy. The western church has never been able to understand the meaning of the parables, because they have no knowledge about Self realisation. India having got the innumerable scriptures which talk about the Self or Atman and advaita can easily interpret the meaning of the parables.

Here is a commentary on the gnostic gospel, The gospel of Thomas.

http://paritrana.blog.co.in/category/religion/jesus/

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

Why would we need or even want to look at the parables of some foreign religion? It is totally unnecessary. We have the Vedas, and countless other scriptures that point to advaita. It's not necessary at all, and may indeed lead to confusion. Best not to mix east and west, in this way. Read about Sri Ramakrishna, Vivekenanda, Patanjali, or Sankara if you want Vedanta.

Aum Namasivaya

[paritraana]

We do have innumrable Gurus and scriptures to know Advaita. But we also have innumerable brothers and sisters who have gone astray into foriegn religions under the leadership of foriegn churches. We need to teach them that even Jesus whom these foriegn religions think is god, taught nothing more than advaita. It will help assimilate the teachings of Jesus into our dharma thus nullifying the need for hindus to convert to foreign religions. It will also strengthen the truthfulness of our scriptures and expose the emptiness of the modern church as far as the quality of its contents s concerned. The church has fully misunderstood the teachings of christ and has created a childish philosophy which it imposes on the world. It is high time we interpret the parables of Jesus and help our people understand the greatness of our philosophers and Rishis.

[Sahasranama]

This is totally unnecessary. Next thing you'll know Christians will be claiming that advaita came from Jesus, like some are claiming right now that Christianity is a yogic tradition.

[paritraana]

See, Vedas predate Jesus. If the church accepts advaita it will have to reject its claim that Jesus is the only begotten son of god. The religion of the church is essentially monotheism and not monism. It believes in a creator and the creation. It believes that all humans are sinners (very much against advaita) and that man can never be equal to god. Advaita says that Brahman alone exist and that Brahman is our own consciousness. So there is no way church can claim that advaita came from Jesus. Infact the teachings of Jesus are very much in accordance to Advaita, and very much opposed to the teachings of Church. This is help Hindus know Jesus better and prevent themselves from falling victim to the propaganda of the church. If hindus know who Jesus is and if they know that he was a spiritual teacher, just like our own Rishis, then we can prevent the church from going forward with its agenda of conversion. Therefore this has to be much publicised.

[Sahasranama]

I know the catholic church will not easily make such claims, as they are heavily opposed to Hindu thought. All though, they will assimilate any pagan influence if it becomes popular amongst people. A lot of Christians have started to make claims that Jesus was a yogi and that the yoga they are practicing came from Jesus, while they are in fact practicing Indian hatha yoga.

It's true that the Vedas predate Christianity, but Shankaracharya did not. Therefore, saying Jesus was an advaitin would mean that Christianity already realised advaita before it was spread amongst the majority of Hindus.

In the same way, there are claims that Jesus went to India. In my opinion this will not prevent conversion. This will only give Indians another excuse to convert, since they can feel more familiar to Jesus. Just like some people think that Jesus was black or that he was mexican.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

This is exactly the slippery slope that the Christians have managed to get into Hindu's minds. Have you read about Father Bede Griffiths, who donned the swami's robe to help with the conversion efforts? I don't believe that Christ even existed, so there is no point putting him alongside Krishna or Ganesha on one's altar. As far as trying to sway Christians into believing in Advaita, all I can say is "good luck with that". They won't. If they do, they'll drop their Christianity and become Hindu. Then that puts us just like them, out to convert, which most of us so despise.

I reiterate, Christianity is totally irrelevant to Hinduism. Let them go do their thing if they want, but there is no point amalgamating. Bringing Advaita into a Christian household would be doing them a great injustice. They would no longer be Christian. When we have this kind of thing going on, it usually leads to family disharmony somewhere along the line. I wouldn't want the karmic consequence of any contribution to that.

Aum Namasivaya

[sacredsound]

I have to say that since I was looking in the Advaita section, I thought I'd see more open minds than what I've seen here. I can understand Hindus getting angry if the Church claimed Jesus invented Advaita, yoga, etc., but all of this is ultimately unimportant. Jesus preached brotherly love and unity: "I and the Father are one." So what if he's not from India? All is one, all is God, remember? If you become irritated over this you're becoming irritated at yourself and God, and you'll end up retarding your own spiritual progress. Realization isn't "a Hindu thing," or "an Eastern thing," it just IS. India just happens to have been fortunate enough to have a good number of rishis and sages to light the path. However, there have been enlightened masters all over the world. All the insights of Hinduism were just filtered through Indian culture, until we have have what's called 'Hinduism' today. Remember, God is reached through love, not through close-mindedness or bigotry. Hindus might call their philosophy 'Advaita,' but that's just the word, not the thing itself. Don't sit around all day talking about non-dualism which is apparently 'Hindu' - live it! That will be far more inspiring and beneficial to everyone, especially if one is still caught up in the net of religious differences which SHOULD be unimportant to a practicer of Advaita.

[SethDrebitko]

I mean no offence as this opinion comes without being to immersed in the faith, and may be subject to change as I learn more.

The very core of Hinduism seems to be a driving goal towards oneness with all not the path we take to get there. It seems to be a fundamental that all paths lead to god, and as such we not judge the walk that others are on as wrong.

Again I am not trying to say that your opinions are wrong just add my own view.

[Darji]

What's wrong is mans perception of the path, not the path itself.

[Eastern Mind]

The very core of Hinduism seems to be a driving goal towards oneness with all not the path we take to get there. It seems to be a fundamental that all paths lead to god,
.

This view is called radical univeralism. The Abrahamic faiths propose a heaven and hell for starters. Hindus believe in reincarnation. There are lots of similarities to be sure (goodness to fellow man) but there are some very key differences. All paths are there to suit varying degrees of souls. If you are in the fear chakra, then Abrahamic path has a place for for you. But there is also room for the more tolerant ecumenical there as well.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Jesus preached brotherly love and unity: "I and the Father are one." So what if he's not from India? All is one, all is God, remember?I have no problem if Christians want to believe in hindu philosophy, but we Hindus do not believe in the Christian God. There is a misunderstanding that Hindus will believe in any God or prophet presented to them, whether it be Jesus or Allah. We have our own scriptures and pantheon of sanctified Gods that we believe in.


I can understand Hindus getting angry if the Church claimed Jesus invented Advaita, yoga, etc., but all of this is ultimately unimportant.. I don't think it's unimportant. It's important for the sake of historical and cultural preservation of Indians that people don't come to us, take our wisdom and then start bastardising it. Yoga and meditation is becoming so westernised and commercialised that the sacred hindu background of it is being disregarded.


If you become irritated over this you're becoming irritated at yourself and God, and you'll end up retarding your own spiritual progress.Interesting.


Realization isn't "a Hindu thing," or "an Eastern thing," it just IS. India just happens to have been fortunate enough to have a good number of rishis and sages to light the path. However, there have been enlightened masters all over the world.Realization of what? You are absolutely right, realization isn't only a Hindu or eastern thing. Isaac Newton realized gravity, Albert Einstein realized relativity. Jesus Christ, if he ever existed, might have realized something too. It's highly unlikely that he had anything to do with the realization of vedanta philosophy.


All the insights of Hinduism were just filtered through Indian culture, until we have have what's called 'Hinduism' today. Remember, God is reached through love, not through close-mindedness or bigotry. Hindus might call their philosophy 'Advaita,' but that's just the word, not the thing itself. Don't sit around all day talking about non-dualism which is apparently 'Hindu' - live it! That will be far more inspiring and beneficial to everyone, especially if one is still caught up in the net of religious differences which SHOULD be unimportant to a practicer of Advaita.Advaita is indeed a hindu term, it refers to vedanta philosophy. There have been western non dualist too, but differ from the vedanta philosophies. There is a difference there. Sure, the bible might have some quotes that resemble Indian thought. I am not against comparative studies of religions. But you can't lump everything together and say: "dude, it's all the same." I call that laziness. The real problem is that people use their imagination to make connections between Jesus and Advaita, Jesus and India or Christianity and Yoga that are not really there. No matter what the agenda is, noble or not, it's deceitful.

N.B. You sound highly judgemental for someone who talks about unity.

[Eastern Mind]

If you become irritated over this you're becoming irritated at yourself and God, and you'll end up retarding your own spiritual progress. Realization isn't "a Hindu thing," or "an Eastern thing," it just IS.

Not everyone here is an advaitin. And how do you jump to any conclusion that someone is irritated. I don`t believe Christ existed. How can I get irritated over a doctrine I am unfamiliar with. Thats like saying Telègu irks me even though I speak no word of it.

Aum Namasivaya

[sacredsound]

To those who responded to my post, I'm sorry if it came came across as judgmental, as that was certainly not my intent at all. I was just trying to bring in my perspective on the whole thing. And I'm definitely not trying to generalize Hindu philosophy with the "it's all the same, dude" attitude. Again, I really wasn't trying to attack or judge people. The thought that it might sound "judgmental" did cross my mind as I posted it, but I did not write it with anger or judgment. Peace! :bowdown:

[NayaSurya]

I was just talking about Jesus to my children. I do feel his life was such a tragedy. If the man existed at all...he was raised by a woman who denied premarital sex so devoutly that she had no choice but to claim the child was divine. He was raised in a Branch Davidian-esque prophecy...very tragic.

The worst part of all is the fact that in the bible, very little is directly the words of Jesus Christ...most of it is purely his followers speaking for him...as we know this is very poor way of decyphering the intentions of an individual.

It's like speaking to one person and that person speaking to one person and then another repeating what they overheard.

I would argue that anything that tries to link Jesus with any philosophy would not be successful...because the truth is, the man..the very human human being that was that poor historical creature...left very little to make that assumption that wasn't from secondary sources...or even fifth or sixth sources.

So then, what would it matter?

It would be as if I decided that Jesus favorite color was red and put together several places where other said they saw him in red...what good would this do? Could we ever truly know if red was in fact the color he liked best?

As a nondualist, I see the man Jesus as a piece of God...as equal to any other piece of God...meaning his opinions would not interest me anymore than Eastern Mind's opinion of Sanatana Dharma....


Actually because EM is one of this pieces most favorite forum posters I would actually prefer his opinion over that of the man Jesus.

Knowing each piece is exactly the same, but each in the midst our journey...EM much further along than the poor struggling man who's family tortured him in such a way. At least from this poster's perspective.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Naya:

At least I think I exist. Sometimes. But one day that individual soul merges with Siva as water does to water, and is no more. Alas!

Aum Namasivaya

[amith vikram]

namaste,
i can understand what paritraana was trying to say.i didn't check out the link which he provided nor do i know much about christ or christianity.what i know is jesus christ proogated these ideals: love ur neighbours,ur enemies,have compassion,etc.,,when a man follow these ideals by his deeds,he will become divine.there is no doubt in that.true,christians dont have a study material like brahma sutra or such intellectual works.but i feel,the socio-political scene of those countries were worse at the time of christ.if a person is contented(worldly)then he can develop in other fields,but if people fight for food and place,what relegion can help u?
one day when all the scriptures are lost,when there'll be nothing called relegion or faith,then one can say this(his life and teachings) is what the goal of advaita is.

[paritraana]

Here the problem is not whether Hindus should belive christian doctrine or christians should believe hindu doctrine. We r discussing the similarity of Advaita and the text Gospel of thomas. See the wording of this text. See the teachings of Gnosticism. It is very much similar to Advaita. This shows that truth is the same, but leanred people call it by different names. Advaita is not something that only Indians knew. People in other parts of the world also found out this truth about their Self. This should strenghten our belief in Advaita and help us realise the reality.

[Eastern Mind]

deleted
Aum Namasivaya

[Satyaban]

I am very wary of the underhanded methods and fraudulent claims many Christian organizations use to gather converts. However those are Christians not Christianity.

Sri Ramakrishna, Paramhansa Yogananda and many great saints recognized the validity (for lack of a better term) of other religions and the eternal truth that is in all. All are on a spiritual path. If yoga is defined as what is practiced to achieve reunion with The Creator then Jesus was a guru and a great saint.

Please correct me where I have erred.

[TatTvamAsi]

The parables of Jesus can be interpreted in the light of Advaita philosophy. The western church has never been able to understand the meaning of the parables, because they have no knowledge about Self realisation. India having got the innumerable scriptures which talk about the Self or Atman and advaita can easily interpret the meaning of the parables.

Here is a commentary on the gnostic gospel, The gospel of Thomas.

http://paritrana.blog.co.in/category/religion/jesus/

jesus mary and joseph!

I cannot believe yet another thread on HDF regarding the so-called validity of christianity or even jesus !


the desert cults, in their relatively short lifespan on this planet, have never, still do not, and never will point to SELF realization. why? the followers of the desert cults always dissociate the creator from the creation. thus, what is the 'realization' of? That is why they have become a set of slave religions where the followers are commanded to obey their "lord".

Ah look! I put spaces between my words in this post! Thus, I was alluding to the fourth state, Turiya! :rolleyes: There is Advaita there too you know! ;) You could never have guessed that could you! hahaha..

The thing is, where we want to see something desperately, we will see it. Analyzing garbage like the abrahamic religions with a Hindu perspective is not a only a waste of time and energy, but an insult to Hinduism itself.

And what's infinitely worse, giving credibility to a group of people who are hell-bent on destruction of other cultures and religions only invites trouble; trouble that we certainly don't need.

[paritraana]

Please read Gnostic texts and about Gnosticism before commenting.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam paritraana:

I just read the entire Wikipedia article on it, and it didn't once mention Hinduism or Advaita. I don't see the connection, and if there is one, it is totally unnecessary. Its your right to go out and draw some conclusions if you wish, but the blending of Xianity and Hinduism is basically pointless. I think you've been hoodwinked by the Christians into thinking there is some connection. This is one of the Christian tactics to weaken SD.

As a staunch Hindu, my opinion is "Who cares?"

Aum Namasivaya

[Darji]

That's it! TatT send me your picture, you are now my Guru... like it or not! :D

[satay]

Oh oh...I would be very careful about that!
'Swami' TTA is very very harsh and can be very offensive. :D


That's it! TatT send me your picture, you are now my Guru... like it or not! :D

[Darji]

Swami-ji TatT is the last protector of Sanatan Dharma and I respect him for it. We all have our views and he is the Brahma to my Vishnu and Em's Shiva, one big happy family who must watch out for each other.

[satay]

hey, I forgot that you are not even indian. Well, in that case, Swami ji is not going to accept you as a student. You must create Swamin ji's statue and learn from the statue like Ek-Lavaya.

you are not worthy! :D


Swami-ji TatT is the last protector of Sanatan Dharma and I respect him for it. We all have our views and he is the Braman to my Vishnu and Em's Shiva, one big happy family who must watch out for each other.

Sorry, got carried away...I quit here now. :)

[Darji]

you are not worthy! :D



In the end, are any of us really? All we can do is serve our respected Lord and honour our teachers, no matter who they are. I have learned a lot in the short time I have been here, both good and bad and I take something special from it.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Some of the greatest Gurus were considered madmen by others. My Guru's guru's guru for example. He sat around being nasty, but the Gurus's guru saw through all that and saw all the inner wisdom. His name was Chellappaswami.

Words are just words. Sometimes it takes a little harshness to make a point. I had students like that. You could ask them tactfully all day and all night, but raise the tone and volume a bit, call out Mr. Grumpy if you will, and then only they'd get it.

The internet is a lousy place for communication really, as you can't read sarcasm easily or body language or tone or volume.

Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

I will consider that this life was successful if I became the dirt close to Lord's feet.


In the end, are any of us really? All we can do is serve our respected Lord and honour our teachers, no matter who they are. I have learned a lot in the short time I have been here, both good and bad and I take something special from it.

[BryonMorrigan]

Why would we need or even want to look at the parables of some foreign religion?

Especially when those parables contain nothing new... Really, there is nothing attributable to "Jesus" that was very Earth-shattering or heretofore unknown, even back in the first century of the Roman Empire. It was the method of conversion and the intent to "convert the world" that was the real difference between it and other religions. (1)

For example, nobody really "converted" to the Religio Romana, the traditional Polytheist religion of Rome. Like Hinduism, it was a traditional system that you were basically born into. "Pagan" Romans didn't look at other religions as "false," but rather as different ways of approaching the same thing. For example, when the Romans built a temple to their god Mars in a Celtic land, then they would look at the Celtic god that was most like their Mars, in this case (usually) Nodens, and declare it "The Temple of Mars-Nodens." The Celts and Romans would worship side by side, with neither "converting" the other.

Also, the Romans did not deny the existence of other peoples' gods and goddesses. An interesting note here is the reason that Christianity and Roman Polytheism clashed - By denying the existence of the Roman deities and publicly denigrating them, the Christians were called "Atheists" by the Romans. (2)

If you want to look at Western philosophies and try to apply them to Hinduism, at least look at real philosophers, like Plato, Aristotle, and Marcus Aurelius. (3)


This view is called radical univeralism.

...and it is totally at odds with Exclusivism, the doctrine upon which Christianity (and Islam) is based upon.


I have no problem if Christians want to believe in hindu philosophy, but we Hindus do not believe in the Christian God. There is a misunderstanding that Hindus will believe in any God or prophet presented to them, whether it be Jesus or Allah. We have our own scriptures and pantheon of sanctified Gods that we believe in.

The mere concept of the Christian "God"...an angry, jealous spirit who will cause never-ending suffering to all who do not bow down at his feet...is such a horrible, and "anti-Human" concept. If their "God" were to exist, I'd want to go to Hell. I can't see how it'd be any worse.


If yoga is defined as what is practiced to achieve reunion with The Creator then Jesus was a guru and a great saint.

The teachings of "Jesus" include many specific things which are contrary to Hinduism, and indeed every other religion in the world except Christianity. You might as well say Muhammad was a guru and a saint while you're at it.


Oh oh...I would be very careful about that!
'Swami' TTA is very very harsh and can be very offensive. :D

I learn a lot from "Swami" TTA. He just teaches in different ways, and I welcome it.

______________________________________________________________

(1) As I mentioned before, Mithraism was far more prevalent in the Empire, even after it was made illegal. It took a few generations (after it was made the official religion) to make Christianity the majority, and it was done completely through Totalitarianism. Any religion would become the majority with that kind of coercion.

(2) As mentioned before, for more information on this, I highly reccomend "God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism," by Jonathan Kirsch. In addition, read the work of the highly-respected Egyptologist Dr. Jan Assman, who argues that all religious intolerance really originates with Moses (...or, as he puts it: "The Mosaic Distinction").

(3) BTW, I have no real idea how compatible any of those philosophers are with Hinduism. I don't feel that I am enough of an "expert" on Hindu philosophy at this time to make such a judgment. I do know that the central tenets of the philosophy of "Jesus" are antithetical to the teachings of every other religion in the world, though...which is why I can make the above statements about its incompatibility with Hinduism.

[NayaSurya]

Vannakkam: Some of the greatest Gurus were considered madmen by others. My Guru's guru's guru for example. He sat around being nasty, but the Gurus's guru saw through all that and saw all the inner wisdom. His name was Chellappaswami.

Words are just words. Sometimes it takes a little harshness to make a point. I had students like that. You could ask them tactfully all day and all night, but raise the tone and volume a bit, call out Mr. Grumpy if you will, and then only they'd get it.

The internet is a lousy place for communication really, as you can't read sarcasm easily or body language or tone or volume.

Aum Namasivaya

So true, which is why I forever am using the :P or what translates as the :p

But, unfortunately hatred....comes across pretty clearly. Even in this imperfect mode of communication.

[Eastern Mind]

But, unfortunately hatred....comes across pretty clearly.

Vannakkam: You and I will have to respectfully disagree on this one. It may come across that way for you, but it doesn't for me.

Some members of my father's generation were accused of hating the French here in Canada. It was more ignorance than hate. Hate is an awfully strong word. I remember a Hindu (non-practising) from Trinidad I met at school, and later taught with as a colleague. She said, "I get along with all the other Indian groups, except for those f....... ______________. (I can't say it because there are some on here.) She was a pretty decent person except for this weird quirk.

I don't see the hate where you see it. There is just expressive to the core language. There is much more hate in Katie Kauric or whatever her name is.
You know the one I mean.

People are just expressions of their own subconscious minds. It I said . "I think people who wander around outside in their bare feet are stupid, because of the tetanus everywhere, would it be hatred?"

Aum namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

Oh yes uhmmm...Ann Coulter! She is very hateful.

But I know folks who make Ann look like a puppy. :p

Calling one names is not the same as the tetanus comment. If you said the tetanus comment and I lived in a place which didn't have tetanus shots since birth(the USA has tetanus shots for whole life time), then I would see you as perhaps concerned. Harsh but concerned. But you didn't call me a demon...so it would def not be hate:P

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakam: Yeah, that's her. She was up here. Sometimes I think she's just talk shock .. all just for show. Sorry I got the name wrong.

I guess its like the school bully. If the victim views it as hate, then its hate, and who am I to judge?

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

lol you're lucky! I wish I could forget her. I swore off CNN six months ago. We used to have it on 24 hours a day on one television. Sweet sweet wonderful silence...and no more of her. Someday I hope to forget her name too:P

[rcscwc]

Xianity is dvaita as it makes a distictiction between god and soul and god and universe.

Period.

Examined in light of Madhavacharya philosophy, it is illogical too.

Next, who will show Jesus is about advaita?

[TatTvamAsi]

LOL! You guys made me laugh!

Funny but true story:

When I was about 14, I was reading the Srimad Bhagavatam. One afternoon, I told my sister, elder to me, to "come sit by my LOTUS feet"!

She walked over calmly and gave me a kick in the shins. I told my dad what had happened and his reaction: a firm shake of the head and "well, you deserved it"! hahahah. I will never forget that day.

so much for "swami-ji" indeed! lol....

[Sahasranama]

You are very forgiving to the seva aparadha of your shishya. :p

[Nemo]

A little late to the party, but decided to post none the less.
As a former fundamentalist Christian (Baptist) and presently a follower of Advaita, at least the Advaita taught by Astavakra, Dattatreya and others, I find many of these posts somewhat troubling. There is an undercurrent of hatred.
Who cares who came up with Advaita or non dualism? Do you really think you are going to find out? Or has it always been and with the help of teachers who spoke in terms, from their perspective cultures, brought to light?
The GoT (Gospel of Thomas)
1. It is not a Gnostic Gospel.

A. Though it was found with the Gnostic Nag Hammadi manuscripts, there is very little in it that appears to be Gnostic, unless you want to call the Gospel of John Gnostic too. They were probably buried by a monk seeking to preserve some of the writings from the monasteries’ library. In the 4th century CE all early unsanctioned Christian/Gnostic writings had been ordered destroyed by Emperor Constantine and his successors, and most were. This was done politically to create a Universal or Catholic church, for control of the masses. There is also another version (GoT) that was uncovered which was written earlier, called the OXY or Oxyrhynchus, which was not found with any Gnostic texts.
B. The GoT is not mentioned by Irenaeus(2nd century Christian) in his writings which are quite extensive and extant (Irenaeus Against Heresies), most of the other Gnostic manuscripts and teachers are. In fact, most self styled Gnostics before the Nag find got all their information from this Ante Nicene father, the serious ones’ still do.
C. In the beginning of the Gospel of Luke, the author states there are MANY accounts written about Jesus. At least there were in the beginning of the 2nd century. A few have been uncovered, most are lost.
The GoT is considered by some scholars to have been written possibly as early as 50 CE, but probably was toward the end of the 1st century. There is no narrative or miracles or crucifixion story, so there has been IMHO only minor redaction and interpolation. It is probably the purest of the gospels. It also includes many of the synoptic teachings.
My take is that the traditions and early writings about the apostle Thomas are probably true. He went to India to spread the words of Jesus. He and/or his disciples came into contact with the teachings of Advaita and a religion which was much older and more advanced than their own (Judaism) and were influenced. They finally understood what Jesus was really talking about. They wrote their own gospel and sent it back to the Mediterranean region. Thomas was labeled a doubter by the Johannine school and lives on in infamy with the western cliché, ‘doubting Thomas’.
Many people outside of Christianity and most Christians themselves are totally unfamiliar with the history of Christianity. The teachings of Jesus or Yeshua are not what is important in that religion. The Apostle Paul’s teachings are considered by most ‘The Gospel’, or by some, equal to Jesus’ teachings. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus’ and never knew him. He also had conflicts with the chosen disciples. Paul’s teachings (at least the ones received) are a labyrinth of contradictions. Don’t believe me, read them. You have to spend years in a seminary, taught by others who haven’t a clue either, what they supposedly mean.
The Emperor Constantine is the father of modern Christianity. He was a worshipper of Mithra or Sol Invicto and many of the present day Christian beliefs are rooted in this ancient soldiers religion or other Roman religions. Everyone in the Roman Empire became a Christian practically overnight with zero tolerance. Christianity has become, since the 4th century, a militant religion, in the beginning this was not so. Early Christian’s beliefs varied and all of their lives were much different.
For me, the teachings of Jesus were an introduction to the Light, or Supreme Self, or God. Jesus’ words that the Kingdom (God) is within and without, that if you split a piece of wood he is there, if you look under a stone he is there and that that Light (Jesus) is within all people, black, white, brown, yellow, or whatever physical appearance we were born this time into, brought this pilgrim to a knowledge that there is oneness. I am.
Christianity is also part of the culture which this body was born into. Though Christians hate me, avoid and count me as one who is hell bound, I love them. I understand, because through ignorance I was the same way. I was taught and believed, because I said a few words(that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead for my sins) and was baptized I was exclusive and part of the chosen and everyone else was damned, but after years of misery I came to understand, it is just not so. I was also taught to compel others to believe the same.
There have also been many Christians throughout the ages, who stumbled upon the truth of Advaita, without ever knowing the word. Though the terminology and metaphysics is different, it appears the same. In my country, three hundred and fifty years ago these seekers were hung, had their ears and noses cut off, were branded and imprisoned. The irony is, this was done by other persecuted Christians who had fled from their home country.
As an outsider (westerner) looking in, one thing I have learned to admire about Hinduism, the tolerance toward other beliefs. The beauty of Hindu Advaita is it gives one the tools to reach the Supreme Self like no other. In my minds eye this is one of the glories and genius of the Indian people. It appears through my studies, one of our common goals is to dispense with all scriptures, religions and mind numbing philosophies and just bask in the glow of Brahman in ALL.

Just a thought. Now it’s gone.
Namaste

[kallol]

Wonderful Nemo.

Bit late to this discussion and I was bit taken aback by the negative vibes and rejections.

In spirituality there is no Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or any religion.

Hinduism is a culture or way of life which is the packaging over the Sanatan Dharma or the eternal truth. There will be many religions but only one TRUTH.

Culture will be different as those are bound by space, society and time.

Now are we fighting on Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism ? There can be fights between cultures but not between the TRUTH as it is one only.

Knowledge in various degrees are available in Christianity and other religions. This knowledge binds the people. Cultures will be different even within a religion. So we need to respect that aspect.

The greatness of the Sanatana Dharma is that it encompasses all beliefs so there is no question of anyone hijacking the TRUTH.

This world will end but the TRUTH remains to be rediscovered again and again through various religions.

It would be unbecoming of a true Sanatana follower to reject any knowledge which has bound so many people.

Love and best wishes

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I wonder why Hindus repeatedly seek to extrapolate the teachings of Christianity and try to find lofty philosophical concepts that are alien to it. Neither the traditional Christian public is ever likely to look beyond their religion and personal God, nor would the notables in charge of their churches ever let them have this freedom.

There are at least two threads which have already discussed the issue of Advaita in the teachings of Bible threadbare:

Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=648

Advaitic messages in Bible
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1884

and the supposed need felt by Hindus to extrapolate Christianity has been discussed here:

Extrapolating Christianity--to What End?
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/archive/index.php?t-2696.html

and now this thread, 'Jesus and Advaita',
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5738

seeking to grind the already ground-to-pulp flour all over again!

*****

My take on some of the points discussed in this thread:

• Hindus would do well to understand that they succumb to the enticement of conversions to Abrahamic religions more because of their ignorance and indifference to even the basic knowledge about their own religion than due to any better scope of enlightment in those religions.

• So, Hindus who seek to 'educate' their fellow Hindus to stand against conversions should arm them with the knowledge of how the unique concepts of Hinduism are NOT found in the Abrahamic religions, rather than seeking to extrapolate those religions.

• It must be understood that we as Hindus have no need or desire to 'educate' the Christians and Muslims for two reasons: one, our religion does not seek to convert other people; and two, it is their karma to be in those religions, and the onus of growing out of them rests with them, subject to Ishvara's grace.

• Christians who are inclined to outgrow their religion should first investigate the historical truth about Jesus Christ (as EM would reiterate) and find out if Jesus and his teachings are not really a myth cobbled out of pre-Christian, pagan traditions, as Sarabhanga observed years earlier in HDF.

• BryonMorrigan in post no.31 has recommended the right perspective we Hindus must have about trying to extrapolate Abrahamic religions. The concepts of personal God, conversion and eternal hell and heaven--and the absence of the karma theory--would make Advaita beyond the reach of the loftiest teachings of Christianity.



My take is that the traditions and early writings about the apostle Thomas are probably true. He went to India to spread the words of Jesus. He and/or his disciples came into contact with the teachings of Advaita and a religion which was much older and more advanced than their own (Judaism) and were influenced. They finally understood what Jesus was really talking about. They wrote their own gospel and sent it back to the Mediterranean region. Thomas was labeled a doubter by the Johannine school and lives on in infamy with the western cliché, ‘doubting Thomas’.


I think you must understand that St.Thomas the Apostle never visited India, a fact, which has been confired by the papal office in Vatican. Read about it here:

Pope Denies St. Thomas Evangelized South India – Ishwar Sharan
http://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/pope-denies-st-thomas-evangelized-south-india-ishwar-sharan/

and about how the Thomas who visited India was not the Apostle but only merchant Thomas Cananeus in 345 CE, and how the Christians later demolished the Mylapore seashore KApAlIshvara temple and built their Santhome church over its destruction here:

The Myth of Saint Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple (1991) – Ishwar Sharan
http://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/posts/
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25567894/2-1995-The-Myth-of-Saint-Thomas-and-the-Mylapore-Shiva-Temple-Ishwar-Sharan

Therefore, the stories about a historical Jesus, his visiting India and learning Advaita and Yoga there, and St.Thomas originating Christianity in India are nothing more than deliberate myths spread by evangelical Christians, at least IMO.



01. As an outsider (westerner) looking in, one thing I have learned to admire about Hinduism, the tolerance toward other beliefs. The beauty of Hindu Advaita is it gives one the tools to reach the Supreme Self like no other. In my minds eye this is one of the glories and genius of the Indian people.

02. It appears through my studies, one of our common goals is to dispense with all scriptures, religions and mind numbing philosophies and just bask in the glow of Brahman in ALL.


01. Yes, Advaita is a unique Hindu concept, universal nevertheless, but that tool can't be used unless the body and mind are honed and tuned by the religion that wraps over it. This is the reason that God has willed everyone to be born into a religion.

02. Man cannot dispense with scriptures, religions and philosophies and go straight to Brahman for the reason given above. The Yogas of Karma and Bhakti cannot be bypassed to pratice the JnAna Yoga and travel in the NivRtti MArga.

*****



In spirituality there is no Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or any religion.


That's right, but to arrive at the right concept and state of spirituality, a religion is a must. There is no precedence, I think, that a person practising atheism or agnosticism ever became Self-Realized!



Hinduism is a culture or way of life which is the packaging over the Sanatan Dharma or the eternal truth. There will be many religions but only one TRUTH.


I would rather view religion and culture to be the rungs of a ladder in reaching the one TRUTH. The ladder of Hindu Dharma and Culture has more and wider steps than the Abrahamic religions to take people at all levels to the Ultimate Truth at the end.

Without the package of the right religion and culture, IMO, a person cannot reach even the initial stages of becoming a jnAni. This is because unless a person has the chitta-shuddhi obtained by the Karma and Bhakti mArga taught by the religion and culture, the individual cannot hope to set foot in the path of NivRtti of the JnAna Yoga.



Culture will be different as those are bound by space, society and time.


And so, thereby, will be the perception of the one TRUTH. To attain the perception of Advaita, a person must necessarily grow out of the individual's culture and religion, where they are found to be lacking.



Knowledge in various degrees are available in Christianity and other religions. This knowledge binds the people. Cultures will be different even within a religion. So we need to respect that aspect.


Binding people with just theoretical knowledge by urging them to look beyond its degress as available within the confines of their culture and religion is not enough. More important is prescribing the practice that leads to the realization of the one TRUTH.

IMO such practical prescriptions do not exist in the Abrahamic religions, which do not spiritually discuss the faculty of mind, so a follower of those religions who happens to know about the Advaitic truth intellectually can only realize it by growing out the individual's religion.



01. The greatness of the Sanatana Dharma is that it encompasses all beliefs so there is no question of anyone hijacking the TRUTH.

This world will end but the TRUTH remains to be rediscovered again and again through various religions.

02. It would be unbecoming of a true Sanatana follower to reject any knowledge which has bound so many people.


01. If SanAtana Dharma encompasses all beliefs, then there is no scope of the Truth being rediscovered and packaged into a new religion! SanAtana Dharma as Hinduism will exist in every cycle of Universal Creation because they are based on the Vedas which are the breath of the ParamAtman.

02. It would also be unbecoming of a true SanAtana Dharma follower to give fase interpretations and hopes to people of Abrahamic religions, about the Advaita that is not found in their teachings [i]as found in ours[/b].

[kallol]

Dear Saidevo,

I would not like to delve deeper which might not be necessary however I would like to put up some points.

1. We should understand that religion is a derivative of ETERNAL TRUTH (depending on one's ability to percieve).

2. ETERNAL TRUTH is a vast subject and has many levels of discovery which is why the extent of the knwoledge is limited in the so called religions

3. Rediscovery of the ETERNAL TRUTH is a phenomenon which happens with everytime Humans (or similar ) are evolved. This is a cycle.

4. The question started with whether what Jesus said has any semblence with Advaita. Which, I believe, could have been answered with logic as monotheism and advaita cannot be compared. Monotheism is the starting point of bhakti and it is in dvaita region. The macro level vision which is necessary to move to the bahurupam or biswarupam is not even there so there is no question that the advaita which is the stage beyond that has ever been concieved by the followers of Christ. Whether or not Christ knew about that - there is no way to know as the Bible came long after Christ and was compiled by ones who were not connected to him.

5. The way on the spiritual path starts with bhakti, which is the essence of all religions and also in hinduism. How to develop bhakti - the way differs.

So my request would be to counter with logic and limit the discussion to logic.

Love and best wishes

[purnapragya]

Which veda jesus was praised and wat sukta?I read four vedas but not finding this interesting thing,I thing some idiot catholic (like Zakir Naik who want to prove muhammad mention in veda) spreading this thought.Pathetic ignorence.