Yoga Inc. (Online Documentary)

[Sahasranama]

Documentary about the commercialisation of yoga "Yoga, Inc.":

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/yoga_inc/


The documentary that asks whether yoga can survive Big Business with its good karma intact

Yoga has transformed from an ancient spiritual practice into a competitive, commercialized, multi-million dollar industry. And for a practice rooted in renunciation, yoga sure is making some people very rich. Can yoga survive this war between the sacred and the profane with its good karma intact?

Esak Garcia is a star on the burgeoning competitive yoga circuit, racking up cash prizes and edging ever closer to snagging an endorsement deal. But Esak’s ultimate goal is the Olympics, a dream instilled in him by his guru, Bikram Choudhury. Bikram’s supporters applaud his crusade to have yoga recognized as an Olympic sport. His detractors are horrified. It’s typical of the controversies that surround the ‘Bad Boy of Yoga’. Bikram has also copyrighted his popular yoga style. Those who teach ‘Bikram yoga’ without playing by his rules are hit with crippling copyright infringement fees. So a group of yoga studio owners take Bikram to court to pose an important legal question; can anyone ‘own’ yoga?

In today’s yoga world only the marketplace has real meaning, where everything is up for grabs, from yoga shoes to chakra panties. The new mantras are Standardize and Supersize. In the race to cash in yoga chains (‘McYoga’?) are popping up everywhere, putting the smaller studios out of business. No wonder purists are scratching their heads. Is nothing sacred?

Greed, lust, ego and the search for enlightenment all come together in this original, irreverent portrait of spiritualism and capitalism colliding head on.

[Lotus]

As a Westerner, I am not surprised. People have recognized the fact that yoga can do a lot more than provide the yoke with god, and of course they will exploit that. We can only hope that some of the good characteristics of yoga rubs off on those who use it as an "alternative therapy".

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Lotus:

Welcome to these forums. I hope you are able to learn stuff here.

Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

HAF (Hindu American Foundation) asked the editor of Yoga Journal why the term Hindu is rarely if ever referred to in the magazine.

His response was that Hinduism or at least the term comes with 'baggage".
What does this mean? I wonder what baggage he/she is referring to.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

I just read a lot about this subject today.

http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/takeyogaback

http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/yoga-hindu-origins

We must take yoga back! There is no denying that yoga is of Hindu origin, and the Westerners need to stop hiding and/or denying that!

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

Yoga is part of Hinduism indeed. Its actually a small part. I forget how many sutras there are of Patanjali, but only 3 deal with hatha yoga. But I'm not sure if protesting about the history of how hatha yoga became a western exercise would benefit anyone. I think we do need to work on demonstrating that the term 'Hindu' is not just some whacko religion. For starters we can all say we're Hindu with heads held high when we say it.

The debate will be interesting to follow. The yoga guys are bigger, and have quite a few powerful lobbyists who are Hindu and won't admit it. For me personally, I have better things to do. Its the type of debate that goes round and round and round, distracting all. This is just my POV.

Perhaps its just the karma of the Christians to have a religion insiduously sink into them without them knowing it.

Aum Namasivaya

[Philippe*]

There are 195 or 196 aphorisms in yoga sUtra, 3 out of them are about Asanas mainly because Patanjali aimed to expose the essence of Yoga Darshana. The principle of sUtra or thread is to summarize and give the maximum of meaning in a very condensed set of words. This suits well in the context of oral transmission, where the student learns by heart in the light of explanation and anecdotes from the teacher adding life to the text. It does not mean that Asanas count for a ratio of 3/195, it depends, the detailed technical part is transmitted orally by the AcArya or the guru, this is not the point of yoga sUtra. On the other hand, traditional yoga is a long-term practice and it is not only a philosophy but also an art and a therapy.

I study since years this discipline in the Krishnamacharya tradition. There are also high-quality Yoga teachers in the West faithful to the Indian tradition (there are some deliberately cutting with the tradition for various reasons) very competent technically and spiritually aware but what is missing in a lot of practitioners compared to India is often shraddhA (faith, trust) in the teachings, the practice, the teacher, the source. But it can acquired over the years.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

There are 195 or 196 aphorisms in yoga sUtra, 3 out of them are about Asanas mainly because Patanjali aimed to expose the essence of Yoga Darshana. The principle of sUtra or thread is to summarize and give the maximum of meaning in a very condensed set of words. This suits well in the context of oral transmission, where the student learns by heart in the light of explanation and anecdotes from the teacher adding life to the text. It does not mean that Asanas count for a ratio of 3/195, it depends, the detailed technical part is transmitted orally by the AcArya or the guru, this is not the point of yoga sUtra. On the other hand, traditional yoga is a long-term practice and it is not only a philosophy but also an art and a therapy.

I study since years this discipline in the Krishnamacharya tradition. There are also high-quality Yoga teachers in the West faithful to the Indian tradition (there are some deliberately cutting with the tradition for various reasons) very competent technically and spiritually aware but what is missing in a lot of practitioners compared to India is often shraddhA (faith, trust) in the teachings, the practice, the teacher, the source. But it can acquired over the years.

Philippe

Patanjalis Yoga tradition is based on Samkhya and completly separete from Hatha Yoga. Asana in Patanjali Yoga only means to remain in a sitting position appropriate for Meditation.

Hatha yoga teaches several other postures not only one sitting posture under the topic of Asana, it is a different tantric lineage involving Laya Yoga and Kundalini jagaran it was taught by Adinath (shiva) to Parvati and transmitted to the Yuga Guru Matsyendranath and passed on to other Siddhas it was popularised by Gorakshanatha and is today preserved in authentic way only in that Natha Tradition.

Krishnamacharya and others are teaching medicinal yoga therapy and modern Neo Vedanta in small doses, this has very little to do with the authentic teachings of tantric Hatha Yoga and Kundalini jagaran as taught by the Siddhas, this tradition is still as good as unknown in the west, only some texts that originate from it, like the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, are used as a written source but these shastras are neither correctly understood nor practiced in context.

[Philippe*]

Patanjalis Yoga tradition is based on Samkhya and completly separete from Hatha Yoga. Asana in Patanjali Yoga only means to remain in a sitting position appropriate for Meditation.

Hatha yoga teaches several other postures not only one sitting posture under the topic of Asana, it is a different tantric lineage involving Laya Yoga and Kundalini jagaran it was taught by Adinath (shiva) to Parvati and transmitted to the Yuga Guru Matsyendranath and passed on to other Siddhas it was popularised by Gorakshanatha and is today preserved in authentic way only in that Natha Tradition.

Krishnamacharya and others are teaching medicinal yoga therapy and modern Neo Vedanta in small doses, this has very little to do with the authentic teachings of tantric Hatha Yoga and Kundalini jagaran as taught by the Siddhas, this tradition is still as good as unknown in the west, only some texts that originate from it, like the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, are used as a written source but these shastras are neither correctly understood nor practiced in context.

yoga sUtra has been the normative text of several traditions of Yoga, what is written about asanas is valid for a developed asana practice in general. Patanjali meant sitting asanas for further practice, but practically it is not disconnected from a vaster asana practice, Vyasa in his yoga bhAShya named a few asanas showing that there was an asana classification in that time. Krishnamacharya tradition is not tantric, though as far as I know yoga practice was a tradition in his family since centuries, it comes mainly from some living tradition in Himalaya, he spent 7 and a half years with his guru near Lake Manasarovar.
But Yoga in the Natha tradition is known in France, there are some people here claiming that they practise Hatha Yoga in the Natha tradition and they take it seriously. Being not so interested I have never taken the time to check whether it was authentic but it is not limited to some knowledge of texts.

Philippe

P.S.: Anyway for me it is just a means to enhance all fields in my life and especially support my sadhana in Integral Yoga from Sri Aurobindo which is not properly Hindu nor an "authentic" tradition.

[MahaHrada]

yoga sUtra has been the normative text of several traditions of Yoga, what is written about asanas is valid for a developed asana practice in general. Patanjali meant sitting asanas for further practice, but practically it is not disconnected from a vaster asana practice, Vyasa in his yoga bhAShya named a few asanas showing that there was an asana classification in that time. Krishnamacharya tradition is not tantric, though as far as I know yoga practice was a tradition in his family since centuries, it comes mainly from some living tradition in Himalaya, he spent 7 and a half years with his guru near Lake Manasarovar.
But Yoga in the Natha tradition is known in France, there are some people here claiming that they practise Hatha Yoga in the Natha tradition and they take it seriously. Being not so interested I have never taken the time to check whether it was authentic but it is not limited to some knowledge of texts.

Philippe

P.S.: Anyway for me it is just a means to enhance all fields in my life and especially support my sadhana in Integral Yoga from Sri Aurobindo which is not properly Hindu nor an "authentic" tradition.


The information you present is incorrect. Patanjalis Yoga is a tradition unrelated to hatha Yoga, the Yoga sutras are wrongly associated with Hatha Yoga by people ignorant of the differences.
Since Gorakshanatha popularised Hatha Yoga some parts of it were adapted by Vedantins and Vaishnavas. Hatha Yoga proper has not been taught as yet in the west, what is taught are some exercises disconnected from the context. There is no authentic Natha Tradition in France as far as i know. Only in Russia and Austria there are people affiliated with the Tradition, but this is as good as unknown to the general public. Besides this , there are only some misuses of the term Natha, i.e a group is using terms such as "Natha Yoga Center" etc. but this is a new age sex cult group originating in Rumania with affiliations in Denmark and maybe other european countries, this is unrelated to any authentic indian Tradition.

[Philippe*]

MahaHrada,

I have already pointed the classical commentary (around 4th-6th centuries) of the YS (II-46) attributed to VyAsa which mentions several Asanas, some of them show that there was a discipline of Asanas developed such as krauncAsana, uShTrAsana. It is even written "and so on" implying that there are other Asanas. VijnAna bhikSHu another classical commentator named some Asanas such as mayUrAsana which is a difficult Asana. On the other hand, one does not need to master a vast series of Asanas to realize the goal of YS,YS was not meant to be technical and it is not a Natha text neither.

In haThayoga pradIpikA with the classical commentary of BrahmAnanda haTha yoga is clearly linked with rAja yoga cf. HYP I:1-3. Traditionally rAja yoga refers to Patanjali Yoga. HYP even includes practices related with therapy and ayUrveda : Shat karmas, six purificatory processes. There are some symbolic myths around haTha Yoga, Gorakshanath is said to be a direct disciple of Mastyendranath (a fish turned into a man) who revealed the haTha yoga teachings. Actually the Yoga practices were in existence long before Gorakshanath (10th-11th centuries) dynamized his tradition.

In some Indian regions, for instance Uttarakhand (Haridwar, Rishikesh aso...) which I know a bit, my in-laws living there, Patanjali Yoga in ashrams and daily life is clearly associated with some psycho-physical practices. In reality, what is put in the box haTha yoga and and in the box rAja yoga are often facets in some more or less integral yogic traditions and not clearly dissociated as if these aspects would have been developed without any mutual influence until today in India.

Moreover from a practical point of view prANAyAma (4th limb) is linked with the breath though the concept of prANa has several meanings and the results of prANAyAma described by Patanjali can be acquired without breathing practices. prANAyAma practices are usually easier and more efficient with an asana practice which is more developed than just taking a comfortable and steady sitting posture without physical preparation. Some efficient prANAyAma practices often include bandhas which need some training coming with Asana practice.

Traditionally, it is common that a yogi involved with psycho-physical practices does not relate mainly with some style of Yoga but first with a teacher : "I have learnt Yoga from... who learnt Yoga from..." thus he (or she) is a link in a living lineage of teacher-student. Texts such as yogayAjnavalkya samhitA (around 10th century) and yoga tArAvali also show some links between psycho-physical practices and rAja Yoga, yogayAjnavalkya samhitA gives details about the eight limbs. YS has been adopted as a normative and classical text over the centuries in India by various people and then lineages. It is not a recent phenomenon.

By the way, the self-claimed Natha yogis and tantrikas in France about whom I have written are not linked to this Romanian movement.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

MahaHrada,

I have already pointed the classical commentary (around 4th-6th centuries) of the YS (II-46) attributed to VyAsa which mentions several Asanas, some of them show that there was a discipline of Asanas developed such as krauncAsana, uShTrAsana. It is even written "and so on" implying that there are other Asanas. VijnAna bhikSHu another classical commentator named some Asanas such as mayUrAsana which is a difficult Asana. On the other hand, one does not need to master a vast series of Asanas to realize the goal of YS,YS was not meant to be technical and it is not a Natha text neither.

In haThayoga pradIpikA with the classical commentary of BrahmAnanda haTha yoga is clearly linked with rAja yoga cf. HYP I:1-3. Traditionally rAja yoga refers to Patanjali Yoga. HYP even includes practices related with therapy and ayUrveda : Shat karmas, six purificatory processes. There are some symbolic myths around haTha Yoga, Gorakshanath is said to be a direct disciple of Mastyendranath (a fish turned into a man) who revealed the haTha yoga teachings. Actually the Yoga practices were in existence long before Gorakshanath (10th-11th centuries) dynamized his tradition.

In some Indian regions, for instance Uttarakhand (Haridwar, Rishikesh aso...) which I know a bit, my in-laws living there, Patanjali Yoga in ashrams and daily life is clearly associated with some psycho-physical practices. In reality, what is put in the box haTha yoga and and in the box rAja yoga are often facets in some more or less integral yogic traditions and not clearly dissociated as if these aspects would have been developed without any mutual influence until today in India.

Moreover from a practical point of view prANAyAma (4th limb) is linked with the breath though the concept of prANa has several meanings and the results of prANAyAma described by Patanjali can be acquired without breathing practices. prANAyAma practices are usually easier and more efficient with an asana practice which is more developed than just taking a comfortable and steady sitting posture without physical preparation. Some efficient prANAyAma practices often include bandhas which need some training coming with Asana practice.

Traditionally, it is common that a yogi involved with psycho-physical practices does not relate mainly with some style of Yoga but first with a teacher : "I have learnt Yoga from... who learnt Yoga from..." thus he (or she) is a link in a living lineage of teacher-student. Texts such as yogayAjnavalkya samhitA (around 10th century) and yoga tArAvali also show some links between psycho-physical practices and rAja Yoga, yogayAjnavalkya samhitA gives details about the eight limbs. YS has been adopted as a normative and classical text over the centuries in India by various people and then lineages. It is not a recent phenomenon.

By the way, the self-claimed Natha yogis and tantrikas in France about whom I have written are not linked to this Romanian movement.

Philippe

I do not really get what you are trying to say. Is it that you think Patanjali taught Hatha Yoga?
Or do you want to say that Patanjalis Yoga based on Samkhya darshana is taught within the Tradition of the original propounders of Hatha Yoga that is by the Nath Siddhas?

Both statements would be wrong. Authentic Hatha Yoga is based on the Tantras and Agamas and contains a wide variety of Asanas, traditionally 84 and this system is taught in shastras such as: Hatha yoga Pradipika, Gorakshagita, Goraksha sataka, Goraksha Paddhati, Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati, Amaraugha Sasana, Amaraugha Prabodha, Mahartha Manjari, Gheranda Samhita, Matsyendra Samhita etc.

Nath panth teaches Mantra shastra, Satchakrabheda and Kundalini jagaran and Laya Yoga and has a distinct definition of the Yoga angas such as dharana, dhyana, samadhi which widely differ from Patanjali Yoga and that relate to the internalisation of elements of the mantra marga, or siddhanta shaivaism,and other agamic and tantric traditions. It also teaches Nada anusandhana and Mantra ucchara all these practices are unknown in Patanjalis yoga system which is based on the Samkhya darshana and contains absolutely no elements derived from the Agamas or Tantras or anything related to the Shaivaite Mantra marga and Ati marga which are the basis of authentic Hatha Yoga.

I do not doubt that also in India it will be hard to find authentic Hatha yoga traditions nowadays and of course also in India Patanjali Yoga is erroneously mixed up with Hatha Yoga.
It is correct that students will relate to a teacher rather than a tradition which is another reason to doubt that teachers like Krishnamacharya and Shivananda the one a Vaishnava the other a Vedantin, (both darshanas that are averse and opposed to the doctrines of the shaivaite ati marga and mantra marga which form the background of authentic Hatha yoga), are so much as even aware of the purport of the hatha yoga shastras, and their aims and methods lacking the ground on which this originally shaivaite and tantric tradition of Yoga is based.

Probably you may find this article interesting which sheds some further light on the subject:
http://www.here-now4u.de/eng/yoga_philosophy_of_jnaneshvara.htm

[Philippe*]

The point was that Patanjali Yoga is connected with psycho-spiritual practices which are more developed than a mere sitting posture and that traditions using such psycho-physical practices predate the time of Gorakshanath, the Natha tradition since Gorakshanath is a tradition among others using such practices, there have been mixing since centuries. Such practices are not "foreign" to Patanjali Yoga thus the question of "authenticity" of the practices takes another dimension and what I have written in previous posts was correct. HYP has become a classical text not only for the Naths, mainly for technical reasons, I find many modern books about Yoga more useful but in those times there was no printing, people used to learn by heart some texts in the light of the explanation of the teacher and used to meditate upon them all life long, it has its advantages too.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

The point was that Patanjali Yoga is connected with psycho-spiritual practices which are more developed than a mere sitting posture
I guess you have misunderstood me, i merely wanted to point out that Patanjali Yoga is distinct from Hatha Yoga and one reason is that it does not focus on diverse bodily postures but on meditation.


.... that traditions using such psycho-physical practices predate the time of Gorakshanath, the Natha tradition since Gorakshanath is a tradition among others using such practices, there have been mixing since centuries. Such practices are not "foreign" to Patanjali Yoga
Of course in a very general sense a few sitting postures are taught in other traditions also, but Hatha yoga is solely based on Nath shastras. If you can name any Hatha Yoga shastra unrelated to Nath panth or Siddha siddhanta than please do so.



the question of "authenticity" of the practices takes another dimension and what I have written in previous posts was correct. HYP has become a classical text not only for the Naths, mainly for technical reasons, I find many modern books about Yoga more useful but in those times there was no printing, people used to learn by heart some texts in the light of the explanation of the teacher and used to meditate upon them all life long, it has its advantages too.
Philippe

I do not doubt that Patanjali yoga sutras or Hathayogapradipika have become text books for other traditions, and that some practices culled from these shastras are also used in western therapeutic Yoga, it is just that all these people who adopted Nath texts lack the background to understand the deeper meaning and aim of these texts especially when they treat subjects beyond the purely physical exercises.

I append another study for consideration:

[MahaHrada]

second part

[Philippe*]

MahaHrada, I am aware of the differences, I do not deny it, and that such Natha texts are taken out of context especially when they do not have commentaries and that no teacher comments them. It is also the case with YS and sAMkhya kArikA.

In the Krishnamacharya, Desikachar tradition, the only important Nath book is HYP. shiva samhitA and GheraNDa saMhitA are more for the cultural knowledge as they have become famous too. Mantra mahodadhi from Mahidhara was considered interesting for mantras, though it is clearly a Tantric book. The other main texts are sAMkhya KArikA, YS, yogarahasya, bhagavad gItA, yogayajnAvalkya saMhitA, yoga tArAvali, various commentaries and texts from Vedas but still you do not have to "believe", there are mirrors for self-knowledge.

Though being a very conservative Southern Brahmin in his young days, Krishnamacharya even taught Vedic Chanting to women and foreigners later in his life with a justification taken from some shastra. He used to go further with his Brahmin students. It is not claimed to be haTha yoga but simply yoga related to Patanjali from a living tradition requiring some lifelong practice to discover, deepen all the aspects and become a competent teacher. He taught different people tailoring Yoga to the individual needs. As a result for a lot of people he was more famous as a therapist, he never claimed to be a guru.

In a way, I find the Tantric teachings more complete as a spiritual path in itself, but it is not what I have chosen, moreover I am not fond of "hidden teachings". Else I would have found some other tradition. On the other hand I see these teachings useful to enhance all fields in life and as a wonderful adjuvant for my spiritual journey which was the case for Krishnamacharya too, he was first a devout Vaishnava. This has been the case for a lot of Vedantins. For Shivananda too, nevertheless I am sceptical about their one-month programme to train teachers in Rishikesh or elsewhere. This is closer to what is commonly understood as mainstream yoga in India, it is more accessible. Other paths require a deep call from inside as a prerequisite. Natha tradition is very esoteric and hidden even in India.

I would add that Patanjali was a compiler and a link in some tradition, there are also various inspiring symbolic myths. Yoga and sAmkhya are mentioned in bhagavad gItA which is older than YS. Moreover in bhagavad gItA alone 18 types of yogas are named, the prANAyAma practice is mentioned too. The fact is that Yoga is very ancient, it comes from time immemorial.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

MahaHrada, I am aware of the differences, I do not deny it, and that such Natha texts are taken out of context especially when they do not have commentaries and that no teacher comments them. It is also the case with YS and sAMkhya kArikA.

In the Krishnamacharya, Desikachar tradition, the only important Nath book is HYP. shiva samhitA and GheraNDa saMhitA are more for the cultural knowledge as they have become famous too. Mantra mahodadhi from Mahidhara was considered interesting for mantras, though it is clearly a Tantric book. The other main texts are sAMkhya KArikA, YS, yogarahasya, bhagavad gItA, yogayajnAvalkya saMhitA, yoga tArAvali, various commentaries and texts from Vedas but still you do not have to "believe", there are mirrors for self-knowledge.

Though being a very conservative Southern Brahmin in his young days, Krishnamacharya even taught Vedic Chanting to women and foreigners later in his life with a justification taken from some shastra. He used to go further with his Brahmin students. It is not claimed to be haTha yoga but simply yoga related to Patanjali from a living tradition requiring some lifelong practice to discover, deepen all the aspects and become a competent teacher.

In a way, I find the Tantric teachings more complete as a spiritual path in itself, but it is not what I have chosen, moreover I am not fond of "hidden teachings". Else I would have found some other tradition. On the other hand I see these teachings useful to enhance all fields in life and as a wonderful adjuvant for my life which was the case for Krishnamacharya too, he was first a devout Vaishnava. This has been the case for a lot of Vedantins. For Shivananda too, nevertheless I am sceptical about their one-month programme to train teachers in Rishikesh adn elsewhere. This is closer to what is commonly understood as mainstream yoga in India, it is more accessible. Other paths require a deep call from inside as a prerequisite. Natha tradition is very esoteric and hidden even in India.

I would add that Patanjali was a compiler and a link in some tradition, there are also various inspiring symbolic myths. Yoga and sAmkhya are mentioned in bhagavad gItA which is older than YS. Moreover in bhagavad gItA alone 18 types of yogas are named, the prANAyAma practice is mentioned too. The fact is that Yoga is very ancient, it comes from time immemorial.

Philippe


I have no doubt that the Yoga paths as they are, or were taught by Swami Shivananda and Krishnamacharya and Iyengar or others remain benefical for the student even if Hatha Yoga shastras are practised in the context of Vedanta or Vaishnavism.

Many practices in the original Hatha yoga are merely preparations for more subtle methods, in an old yoga song it is said "Nath convention is that one body eats the other" . Not only the physical body is purified but raw bodies are purified and assimilated into more "stable" undecaying subtle bodies.

When these higher methods are unknown the body is prepared and purified which is a good thing of course, but the second step cannot be applied because of a lack of knowledge as to why it was purified in the first place.

Therefore there is a danger that modern Hatha Yoga remains focussed on the therapeutic value of the asanas and pranayama, and the way hatha yoga practises Dharana, or Dhyana Samadhi and Kundalini jagaran is either seldom taken up or if taken up it is not properly understood, because of the lack of context of these teachings with orthodox vedanta.

The problem becomes even more frustrating when the concept of Patanjalis yoga angas are mixed up with the Yoga angas as understood in Hatha Yoga proper.

While Patanjalis Angas denote deepening stages of meditation, in Hatha yoga these Angas are a definend sets of activities, for instance dharana is focussing of prana in specified body regions (Marmas) using certain sequences and timing. This again is only a preparation to focus the life force in the chakras by gathering the mind and prana on the form and attributes of the panchabhutas, which is termend dhyana and so on.

Actually it is a sad state that so little background information about the original aims of Hatha Yoga are available, since Asana practice and Pranayama, are subjects that have gathered so much public attention in the west. Nowadays there is a myth, even in India, that Hatha yoga is focussed on the physical body, and it has become unknown that its maxim is rather "one body eats the other" and it should lead one forward to Samadhi by kundalini jagaran.

[TatTvamAsi]

Bikram Choudhury is a joke like Deepak Chopra.

They are in the States for one reason; to make gobs of money.

By manipulating yoga and other elements of Hinduism to sell to these mlecchas, they have made millions and are self-proclaimed gurus.

It is a travesty that yoga is so commercialized in the west. In fact, what these people call 'yoga' is not that at all.

This is what happens when you allow all sorts of fellows to do yoga and study Hinduism.

Caste. Another brilliant reason why caste is needed and these mlecchas should be disbarred from doing yoga or anything related to Hinduism.

[Sahasranama]

In the documentary first it seemed that the people who were sued by Bikram were genuinely concerned about the commercialisation of yoga. But when they made a deal with Bikram they dropped there case! That shows they were only thinking about saving their own asses.



This is what happens when you allow all sorts of fellows to do yoga and study Hinduism.

Caste. Another brilliant reason why caste is needed and these mlecchas should be disbarred from doing yoga or anything related to Hinduism.I do not agree with you here. We can't generalise, there are Hindus and Indians too who will abuse their religion for money. Many pundits in India only read the Bhagavatam for material wealth without understanding the deeper meanings of the text or without devotion.

There are also many mlecchas who are concerned about authenticity of Hindu teachings, even though they might not be Hindus themselves. Just look at people like David Frawley and Georg Feuerstein.

Having said that, I do think that there are many western people who are undeserving to practice certain aspects of Hinduism. And yes, I do think that they have a major role to play in the commercialisation of Hinduism and yoga.

[TatTvamAsi]

In the documentary first it seemed that the people who were sued by Bikram were genuinely concerned about the commercialisation of yoga. But when they made a deal with Bikram they dropped there case! That shows they were only thinking about saving their own asses.

I do not agree with you here. We can't generalise, there are Hindus and Indians too who will abuse their religion for money. Many pundits in India only read the Bhagavatam for material wealth without understanding the deeper meanings of the text or without devotion.

There are also many mlecchas who are concerned about authenticity of Hindu teachings, even though they might not be Hindus themselves. Just look at people like David Frawley and Georg Feuerstein.

Having said that, I do think that there are many western people who are undeserving to practice certain aspects of Hinduism. And yes, I do think that they have a major role to play in the commercialisation of Hinduism and yoga.

I agree with you there. There are indeed several westerners who are genuinely interested in Hinduism. And that is a great thing.

[MahaHrada]

Varna or Jati as a qualification is only relevant for the study of the Vedas. In acharas based on Agamas, Tantras and Yoga shastras this was never needed as a requirement.
Anyone who makes distinctions according to Guna or Jati and Varna is not as yet qualified for Hatha Yoga or any other of the higher tantric paths and should stick to Vedanta where he belongs according to his qualifications.
Nath Panth and its Yoga marga is an ati varnashramachara. Only in the worldly path, the Pravrittimarga, Guna, Karma and Varna are relevant, but Yoga marga is the Nivrittimarga and any real progress in this path cannot be made without transcending the Gunas and discarding Varna distinctions. The reason is since according to the Gita Varna is based on the Gunas and since the Gunas are transcended by the Yogi, Varna is also eliminated. Therefore traditionally a Hatha Yogi has to reject qualification according to Varna (for the Yogamarga) along with other worldly distinctions.

[Sahasranama]

Yoga piracy: India shows who's the guru



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Yoga-piracy-India-shows-whos-the-guru/articleshow/4167939.cms

[Odion]

To be honest, I'm quite wary of many Western yogis. I say that as a Westerner. Many seem to have a superficial understanding of yoga and turn it into something mundane and devoid of spirituality.

That, and we have silly billies (:D) like my brother's wife who does 'Christian yoga'. How cute.

However, there are still some decent yogis and yoginis out there from the West and Hindu thought is slowly but surely growing in the West. There are going to be some frauds and many with a poor understanding of its true thought, but then again, yoga, Hinduism, etc is still quite new to the Western world. Over time, the West will develop a more mature understanding, if given the opportunity to do so.

My $0.02 :)

[saidevo]

Update on the link from Sahasranama:
http://www.tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/common/Home.asp?GL=Eng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Knowledge_Digital_Library

http://swapsushias.blogspot.com/2009/12/tkdl.html
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/economy-and-business/India-Documents-900-Yoga-Poses-to-Block-Yoga-Related-Patents--96142514.html



Yoga piracy: India shows who's the guru
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Yoga-piracy-India-shows-whos-the-guru/articleshow/4167939.cms

[Sahasranama]

Thanks for the updates.

A link about Bikram on yogajournal:

http://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/1143

[Ashvati]

A girl I've recently been talking with, early on in our correspondence, said she loved Yoga. As we talked more on the subject and I talked of the religious significance of it, and of a breathing excercise I had learned that seemed to work well for improving my mood, she somewhat sheepishly admitted she just liked the "look at me stretch" aspect of it :/

People here in the west have massive misconceptions of what Yoga is even for. I tried explaining this to my mother and she had this almost condescending "Oh, I don't know about that/oh how cute" tone in her response. Having done "yoga" for years, learning it from a westerner, does NOT mean you actually understand it better than a hindu because most western yogis don't know **** about it.

[Sahasranama]

Yoga is seen as an alternative way of fitness or therapy. People have their own ideas what yoga is, without looking at the origins. It's part of western culture to get a taste of everything. It's hard to find people who are really inspired by the philosphy of yoga. Rather you will find people who go to yoga class and afterwards sit in the group drinking tea and talk about having a beer or a barbeque.

If these westerners want to pretend they are doing yoga by acting like circus artists, without learning the philosophical, cultural and religious background, it's really their loss. It's better they don't learn, because they are unworthy of the teachings. They are still annoying as hell though when they are claiming that they are doing "real yoga" without the dogma. In fact they are learning yoga without any essence. Yoga practioners who are interesting in meditation are looking towards Buddhism. They don't know that yoga is an integral practice, including pratyahara, dharana and dhyana.

Wasn't there a thread about Deepak Chopra who claimed that yoga is not Hindu?

[Believer]

Vannakkam:

HAF (Hindu American Foundation) asked the editor of Yoga Journal why the term Hindu is rarely if ever referred to in the magazine.

His response was that Hinduism or at least the term comes with 'baggage".
What does this mean? I wonder what baggage he/she is referring to.

Aum Namasivaya

Any time you mention Hinduism with yoga or some philosophical thought pattern, you turn off lot of Xitians and that is bad for the business; that is the 'baggage'.

Dr. Wayne Dyer has been the darling of PBS TV for fund raising drives, for a number of years. He talks about Hindu philosophy without mentioning the word 'Hindu', because that will poison the whole thing and make people, who have paid mucho bucks to attend his seminar, head for the doors. Everything has to be packaged in a user friendly fashion, or it will not sell - simple as that.

In the West, yoga is a big commercial commodity. It is not a means for yoking with the divinity as Hindus would use it, but merely a way to fight stress, or a means to controlling your weight, or treat some body aches and pains. Consumer is the King, and the King says, "Don't have any non-Xitian overtones associated with your product, else it won't sell".

[sunyata07]

^ It's sad when you realise that it's just a matter of language rather than content of philosophy. Most people I know would easily concede to the wisdom of the Vedas and the teachings of Hinduism, but mention the word "Hinduism" to Christians and they seem hesistant and dubious, mention the word "God" or "religion" to atheists and they seem uninterested or repelled. And yet the wisdom it contains remains the same. It's just a word game for the rest of the world.


In fact they are learning yoga without any essence. Yoga practioners who are interesting in meditation are looking towards Buddhism.

I know. It's really very strange, considering yoga is not exactly a core element of Buddhism. My respects to Buddhism (the real essence of it and not the stuff that's been repackaged for Western atheists starved of spiritual purpose), but it seems to be the religion of mere curiosity to the Western world at the moment. I've lost count of the number of Buddha statues I see in garden centres and in beauty parlours, and while I'm not against decorating a room with a murti or a image of enlightened ones like Lord Buddha, I wonder at how people - particularly new agers - can just so carelessly put them here and there like it's nothing more than a potted plant or a candle. Study of yoga, chakras, and meditation has just become this novelty in the West that the middle-class engage in on a surface level from time to time. Whether that's out of following a fashionable trend (how many times have you heard that line "I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual"? :rolleyes: ) or from a genuine want of release from the wordly, you decide.

[Sahasranama]

Yes, you are right. There almost an open and non critical acception of cocepts like yoga, chakra, nadi, tantra, mantra, karma, dharma, ayurveda, vedic or vedanta. Add a few of these words in your book or a salesletter for a product and you can sell almost anything. On the other hand admitting that the above words are Hindu and theistic concepts scares the hell out of people. In this case, the orthodox Christians who want to avoid these at all costs are more honest to themselves, because at least they admit that these are Hindu concepts.

[Sahasranama]

Leave a comment please, a discussion about God, yoga and religion:

http://www.pranamaya.com/blog/regular-posts/dear-god-its-yoga/#comments

[Kumar_Das]

Namaste,

I just read a lot about this subject today.

http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/takeyogaback

http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/yoga-hindu-origins

We must take yoga back! There is no denying that yoga is not of Hindu origin, and the Westerners need to stop hiding and/or denying that!

I think you meant; "there is no denying that yoga IS (and not is not) of Hindu origin"

[Kumar_Das]

If someone is deliberately performing an action and are not getting a spiritual awakening from it. Then that action is useless on its own.

Do you see people saying that they suddenly felt very inclined towards religiousity when they perform yoga?

I have seen a few. But I dont know many people who perform yoga personally.

So I think the moral of the story is that yoga is useless in terms of spirituality. Including the muhammadan one, called salat.

[Kumar_Das]

Varna or Jati as a qualification is only relevant for the study of the Vedas. In acharas based on Agamas, Tantras and Yoga shastras this was never needed as a requirement.
Anyone who makes distinctions according to Guna or Jati and Varna is not as yet qualified for Hatha Yoga or any other of the higher tantric paths and should stick to Vedanta where he belongs according to his qualifications.
Nath Panth and its Yoga marga is an ati varnashramachara. Only in the worldly path, the Pravrittimarga, Guna, Karma and Varna are relevant, but Yoga marga is the Nivrittimarga and any real progress in this path cannot be made without transcending the Gunas and discarding Varna distinctions. The reason is since according to the Gita Varna is based on the Gunas and since the Gunas are transcended by the Yogi, Varna is also eliminated. Therefore traditionally a Hatha Yogi has to reject qualification according to Varna (for the Yogamarga) along with other worldly distinctions.

You talk alot. Very good, why dont you lecture these capitalist West-sataners for degenerating yoga into a money making business and competition.:rolleyes:

[Kumar_Das]

Mr.Satay please allow me to release my steam in this post.

You know how in some stupid Hindu texts and sayings there are ****ing annoying sh*t like "you're not supposed to do this, or that" that instills guilt. Like "you're not supposed to judge someone constantly and say that they are behaving sinfully so much so that you fail to focus on your ownself and as a result you will go to hell etc... "

Why dont these righteous ****s do the same now?

They are slaughtering yoga, stripping the true essence of it. Where are all these people now?:rolleyes:

Its like those useless old (like really old) self-righteous people from India who will lecture you. Yet put them in the Western world for the first time. They will piss themselves and cant get around. Suddenly their wits will fail them.

Why isnt any Hindu protesting against the hijack of yoga, when yoga ALWAYS was a Hindu school? a HINDU sect?!

This is why I think Hinduism should be safeguarded.

Human beings are useless scum imo.

They need a disciplinarian religion like Islam, which grinds them and mentally rapes them for them to behave properly.

You allow them to talk, see how much they talk and are so hypocritical!

[Kumar_Das]

Bikram Choudhury is a joke like Deepak Chopra.

They are in the States for one reason; to make gobs of money.

By manipulating yoga and other elements of Hinduism to sell to these mlecchas, they have made millions and are self-proclaimed gurus.

It is a travesty that yoga is so commercialized in the west. In fact, what these people call 'yoga' is not that at all.

This is what happens when you allow all sorts of fellows to do yoga and study Hinduism.

Caste. Another brilliant reason why caste is needed and these mlecchas should be disbarred from doing yoga or anything related to Hinduism.



I just had that in my mind.:rolleyes:

Thats not to say that there are tonnes of genuine and pious non-Brahmin Western born and bred Sanatana Dharmis.

But we've just seen for our ownselves what has happened. And its inevitable, thats the point!

[Kumar_Das]

Many pundits in India only read the Bhagavatam for material wealth without understanding the deeper meanings of the text or without devotion.

You will never see a Brahmin who would sell his spirituality. Only one that would sacrifice his prestige as a Brahmana for the sake of spirituality a la Srila Prabhupad.

[Sahasranama]

Kumar Das, I am not offended with your language, but I would advice that a being more carefull with your language will benefit the message you are trying to deliver. You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. Not many people will take your words serious if you keep cursing.


Why isnt any Hindu protesting against the hijack of yoga, when yoga ALWAYS was a Hindu school?

Well they are protesting:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/takeyogaback
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/yoga-hindu-origins
http://www.hinducurrents.com/articles/19969/lets-take-yoga-back/

[Sahasranama]

There are Christians protesting that Yoga should not be thaught in schools, because it is Hindu.

1) There is no so called spiritual practice as secular as modern commercialised hatha yoga

2)what about celebrating christmas and eastern at schools, that should be banned too

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Sahasranama:

The topic of celebrating Christianity in schools is an ongoing debatehere in Canada and in the US. There is a ton of 'pass the buck' from local school boards to individual schools to provincial governments here. Many schools don't practise at all, or do some winter festival thing, while others go all out, especially Christmas. Easter has more or less become a non-issue. kindergartens might have an egg hunt of some principal in a bunny costume might poke his head in the window. In private Christian schools, of course it is a whole 'nuther matter.

When it boils down to a school based decision, the principal often is the deciding factor. Also the demographics of that particular school will have some effect.

I just wanted to point out its not as bad as one might think.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Thanks for giving an outlook of holidays in the USA and Canada. Here in the Netherlands, all public and christian elementary schools celebrate:

-Eastern
-Saint Martin's Day
-Saint Nicholas' Day
-Christmas

Most high schools celebrate the last two.


Easter has more or less become a non-issue. kindergartens might have an egg hunt of some principal in a bunny costume might poke his head in the window.

This is comparable to what yoga is. It's just stretching for the most part, because it has lost it's religious significance. Just like eastern has turned into an egg hunt for children. Therefore, people who object to yoga at public schools, should also object to eastern or christmas. Even though the holidays have become more "secular," but so has yoga. The christians have double standards, because they only object to yoga.

[sunyata07]

As another member pointed out, trying to learn yoga without caring for the philosophy and the spirituality behind it is like trying to learn martial arts like kung fu without the slightest notion of Taoist principles - essentially pointless and without real benefit to pracitioner. What is its purpose, if nothing more than exercise, with exotic connections to the east? If one is serious about toning up and getting into shape, I would much rather they do simple aerobics or pilates than to kid themselves in thinking they would sooner be a yogi.

Again, if you ask me, it is the merely appeal of the eastern culture that tempts most people into taking up yoga for themselves - but don't bring the word Hinduism into the conversation, or you may end up scaring off most of your students! Or... intrigue them as it did me! :) Yes, I am guilty of this. When I became vegetarian for health and moral reasons, I also took up yoga myself to get into shape, primarily. My reasons for practicing it now, obviously, have changed somewhat. But I will admit it was one of the stepping stones to wanting - thirsting, actually - to learn about Sanatana Dharma. So, who knows? Commercialisation of yoga is certainly bad news, but it may also be the first step for open-minded people to get the chance to learn about Hindu philosophy. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but I am glad to say that most yoga classes that I have gone to attribute yoga to Hindu spiritual practices and they certainly don't try to hide it or distort that fact.

And thank God I have never yet come across one of those crazy Christian yoga camps. Not on this side of the pond, anyway. Maybe Irish Catholics are somewhat saner than their Anglo-Protestant Christian counterparts I saw on that website that Shanti posted a while back?

[Sahasranama]

I am glad to read your positve experience with yoga. Yes, people come to yoga to get fit, healthy, improve their breathing and fight of stress. Even if among a thousand yoga students only one becomes sincerely interested in the philosophical and religious aspects of Hinduism, that's a succes. In that regard, I would not complain that people come to yoga for reasons other than the true purpose of Hindu yoga. Commercialism is not always bad, yoga teachers need to be able to provide a living for themselves, so that they can keep providing quality lessons to students. As long as they are honest to keeping yoga pure, I have no objection to that.

What really troubles me is that some people do not give credit to Hinduism anymore as the source of yoga. Many modern marketers are saying, "yoga is an ancient scientific discipline, used in all religions, later adopted by Hinduism." The risk is that yoga will become diluted to a series of physical poses that have nothing to do with the ancient practice. Even if the goal of someone is just health and wellbeing, that would also not be achieved when yoga is done without knowledge of the ayurvedic samhitas, scriptures like the hatha yoga pradipika, the yoga yajnavalkya and the philosophial teachings of patanjali, the upanishads and the bhagavad gita. This knowledge is required to make yoga and effective practice, even if the goal are simply health, stress reduction or better mental abilities.

Let's take the Christians for example who are basing their cues for the asana and meditation practice on verses of the bible. Many of the cues are contradictory to what is written in the Hindu scriptures, therefore this cannot be called yoga anymore. Then there are people who use sex to sell yoga. I have seen a yoga instructional DVD where the female instructor did asanas on top of her husband and started kissing him. On another video a yoga teacher had his wife in the class presentation and he kept touching and caressing her ass while she was demonstrating the series of poses. The same guy claimed that his yoga burned 800 calories per hour. These people really don't know what they are doing, they are dishonest to the tradition of yoga and should not be allowed to market themselves as yoga teachers.

On the other hand, there are many teachers who have done a great deal of research and development that has benefited the practice of yoga. Shandor Remete for example has studied 20 years from B.K.S. Iyengar, learned from a student of Pattabhi Jois and read books by Sri Krishnamacharya. He also studied ayurveda, the ancient yoga scriptures and looked at the self cultivating arts of south India like bharat natyam and the martial arts named kalariyapat. Based on this knowledge he developped a system to prepare the body for the practice of asanas, mudras, bandhas, pranayama. This is how yoga was done in the past, but the tradition faded away. So it's not all bad, the western interest of yoga has gone two ways. One is the abuse of yoga and the other is the rebirth of yoga. There's this huge difference between the utter c.rap that is being thaught as yoga and authentic teachings that originate from or are inspired by the ancient Hindu practice of the art.

[sunyata07]

Namaste Sahasranama,



Many modern marketers are saying, "yoga is an ancient scientific discipline, used in all religions, later adopted by Hinduism." The risk is that yoga will become diluted to a series of physical poses that have nothing to do with the ancient practice.

Yes, this is definitely wrong. The very idea of having a purely secular yoga, can you imagine such a thing? It should really have a different name at that stage. Yoga itself is derived etymologically with the Sanskrit for "union; yoking", which refers to the merging of the individual with the Supreme Reality. So I can only smile at the irony behind hearing the religiously and spiritually sceptic claiming they regularly practice yoga.

Christian yoga... well, that's a bit different if you ask me. It's not such much secular yoga as it is simply a bunch of deluded Biblethumpers jumping onto the bandwagon in a way to revive their ever-strained religiosity. I find it humorous, but mostly harmless because I don't think anyone takes evangelical Christians seriously these days.



Then there are people who use sex to sell yoga.


I admit I have not experienced this personally, but I don't doubt for a second that it exists. You know the old saying "sex sells", and if one stops to think about it for a while how could westerners not make the mistake of confusing yogic exericise with tantric practices (again, grossly distorted when it's repackaged and shipped over to our side of the world)? It's almost expected that they would take advantage of people's ignorance in order to get them to pay tonnes of cash to enrol in their courses and buy their DVDs and self-instruction manuals. But we can save the Tantric debate for another topic, as it really is more a skewing of people's perceptions of sexual energy, often just simplified down to "make your sex life better" when you're selling it to jaded, or oversexed yuppies.

I agree with you on the two types of yoga. From here it can only separate into two forms, either to be reborn as you say into a revival of a thousands year old tradition, or to be weighed down under the banner of "western yoga", which is really nothing more than a few leg and back stretches. It's one of the reasons why I'm extra careful now about signing up for yoga classes. It's hardly fair of me to judge based on ethnic background, but I have my reservations about western instructors - at least, I would want to sit in on one class and see what the instructor has to say to his class before I sign up and give my money away to what could well be a charlatan.

[Sahasranama]

......

[Sahasranama]

Here's a very good article on the subject by Subhas R. Tiwari.

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=1456

[Sahasranama]

Blogpost:
http://www.sandeepweb.com/2010/05/04/the-yoga-disease/

[Shanti]

Here's an article I read today
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/102797769.html?page=1&c=y

I'm disappointed by the "oh well", "it's cute" attitude regarding those that have butchered the true Yoga.

[Sahasranama]

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6455&highlight=yoga

[Sahasranama]

Bikram Choudhury Yoga: Englightenment or Sex Party? (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/bikram-choudhury-yoga-englightenment-or-sex-party)

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Sahasranama:

A bit too over the top for me (understatement), but hey, it is a free country. But why the tent? You could just go to India in the right season and get +40 all over. And $7000 for the course? I could buy quite a few archanas with that. Whoa!:)

Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

I think you meant; "there is no denying that yoga IS (and not is not) of Hindu origin"

Yes, of course. Thanks for pointing that out. I just edited my post.

Jai Sri Ram

[Believer]

Not to start the debate about merits of yoga exercises without the spiritual part of it, but, as a relatively new yoga practitioner, I learnt it from an Indian instructor at a temple. My need arose out of the desire to keep my aging body parts functioning properly. :)

At a purely physical level, I interpreted yoga to encompass exercises for the muscles, for the joints; and the breathing exercises for cleansing the chakras. Are any of you currently involved with yoga? Are physical/breathing exercises the starting point for the yoga practices? How can I raise it to a higher level? Any comments or help to get more out of it would be appreciated.
-

[Eastern Mind]

Not to start the debate about merits of yoga exercises without the spiritual part of it, but, as a relatively new yoga practitioner, I learnt it from an Indian instructor at a temple. My need arose out of the desire to keep my aging body parts functioning properly. :)

At a purely physical level, I interpreted yoga to encompass exercises for the muscles, for the joints; and the breathing exercises for cleansing the chakras. Are any of you currently involved with yoga? Are physical/breathing exercises the starting point for the yoga practices? How can I raise it to a higher level? Any comments or help to get more out of it would be appreciated.
-

Vannakkam Believer: I started again just a few months back after a 30n year hiatus of raising kids and earning money. I kind of take each posture as a version of the lotus posture (which i can't get into any more ... maybe again in 3 or 4 years) and see each one as a one minute meditation, and try to really feel all the nerve currents especially right where the main stretching is for each posture. But this is not from any teaching, just from my gut/intuition. I never took any formal classes except for the one from a grumpy old woman.

um Namasivaya

[TheOne]

Any recommendations for a "do it yourself" spiritual hatha yoga guide?

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste all,

Just read this today and figured here would be a good place to share it.

David Frawley talks about yoga in the West (http://yogatrainingguide.com/becoming-a-yoga-teacher/tips-on-becoming-a-yoga-teacher-from-david-frawley/)
He makes good points about the need to bring awareness to the spiritual, Hindu roots and connections to yoga.

Jai Sri Ram

[Sahasranama]

.........