Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

[Ramakrishna]

My summer vacation is coming up soon and before heading off to college I plan on reading the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Are all of the stories told in these two epics actual historical events that happened? Or were some of the stories more like allegories and symbolic stories to teach the readers morals and lessons about life?

I have read in multiple places that Lord Rama is an example of the ideal man, the perfect husband, and the perfect leader. Sita is an example of the ideal woman and the perfect wife. Lord Hanuman is an example of a perfect and steadfast devotee and servant of God. This website (http://hinduism.about.com/od/godsgoddesses/tp/deities.htm) says that Lord Rama "is widely believed to be an actual historical figure." But are we to believe that every single story from the Ramayana actually happened here on Earth, such as Lord Hanuman lifting an entire mountain? Are certain aspects or stories to be taken symbolically or allegorically?

I am wondering the same about the Mahabharata as well. This website (http://hinduism.about.com/od/scripturesepics/a/itihasas.htm) has given me plenty of information about the Itihasas. I know Itihasas is the Sanskrit word for "histories", but were all of the events described in them actual historical events that took place on Earth? The website says that the Mahabharata "is a treasure house of Indian lore and holds within it a code of life for ethical, social and spiritual relations. Throughout this great epic every sort of human situation is described and every kind of emotion is aroused. There is a saying that if it is not in the Mahabharata then it is not to be found." That would lead me to think that not all of the events actually literally occurred, but were made up as allegorical and symbolic stories to teach us morals and life lessons. But the Bhagavad Gita is part of the Mahabharata and I have always thought of the Gita as something that actually occurred here on Earth.

Please help me and clarify this because I am pretty confused right now.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Ramakrishna:

As far as I know, there are two viewpoints, and a wide range of emotional attachment to both. Perhaps you will have to ask, "What makes the most sense to me?"

For me personally, it is myth and allegory. (I know this will come across as insulting to some that hold its all reality.) When I read condensed versions, it just sounded more like historical fiction than history. There were too many miracles like flying for me. But I could be dead wrong, as I have been before many times.

There is also the other possibility that stories were based on real historical figures, but then later additions were made.

Regardless, if one gleans lessons and can apply them to this life, then really why the question. We often get good lessons from current fiction as well, especially what not to do.
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Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Ithihas by definition = history

i would not want to insult those highly elevated personalties who wrote it as such. sure there is a lot i do not comprehend but then not so long ago people use to think the world was flat.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Sahasranama]

I have no doubt that Hanuman lifted the mountain or that Krishna lifted the govardhan with his pinky, or that Narasimha came out of a pillar to kill hiranyakashipa. They are the manifestations of Ishvara, so why would it be any problem that they can do the unbelievable? They came with style. There are many people these days who call their guru an avatar. The original avatars of the itihasas and puranas do put a lot of expectation on the modern flood of avatars, they can't live up to it.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM


There were too many miracles like flying for me. But I could be dead wrong, as I have been before many times.
Aum Namasivaya

I find this amazing that the flying could render the History of Bharat and reduced it to myth or fiction, off course you are entitle to your opinion, but there are documented design of Viman and how it works, we are simply unable to understand it, that does not prove it worked but i am inclined to believe those ancestors of ours were far superior then we could imagine.

We all are flying with mother earth this very moment and we can not even feel it.how amazing is this miracle, we know the earth is in motion yet we say sun is rising and setting, just shows how faulty our perceptions are.



Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam GP:

I am not in the least trying to discourage you from your view. OP asked a question, and I said there would be varying views, and you and I together have proved that statement. I'm not the kind of person who thinks in the "I'm right, you're wrong' mode, and neither are you.

In my Saiva tradition, Tirujnana Sambandar was said to have walked into the sanctum with his whole wedding party and disappeared into the Sivaloka. Do you believe in that one? I'm not sure if I do or not.

Aum Namasivaya

[smaranam]

Namaste

Sahasranama said :

I have no doubt that Hanuman lifted the mountain or that Krishna lifted the govardhan with his pinky, or that Narasimha came out of a pillar to kill hiranyakashipa. They are the manifestations of Ishvara, so why would it be any problem that they can do the unbelievable? They came with style. There are many people these days who call their guru an avatar. The original avatars of the itihasas and puranas do put a lot of expectation on the modern flood of avatars, they can't live up to it.

We have to look at the concept of avatAr first - for the sake of all readers.

When Bhagavan/ Parameshwar (Ishvar)/ ParaBrahman descends, He does so in numerous varieties.

KRshNa is svayam BhagavAn. He is also considered PUrNa AvatAr of VishNu = God in all His completeness. When He expands into 100% Himself - this is sva-aMsha (svaMsha) avatAr.

The Supreme Lord has
guNa avatAr - to preside over each of the 3 guNas
Yuga avatAr - special for each of the 4 Yugas
LIlA avatAr - that perform pastimes (Matsya KUrma RAm NarsiMha VAman, VArAha)
Manwantara avatAr - to do the Supreme Lord's designated service for a specific period of a Manu

shaktyAvesha avatAr - ( shakti + Avesha ) : empowered beings sent with many of His powers and qualities (shaktis) , but not necessarily all.

vibhutis - Living entities with sparkles of His glories (Bhagavad Gita Chapter 10)
aMsha avatars - an aMsha is a fraction. HanumAn is an aMsha of Lord Shiva

It is said that the Supreme Lord is triYuga. That is, He comes in all/most of His opulence in only the first three Yugas - Sat, TretA, DwApar.

In Kali Yug, we have mostly Guru avatArs. The Lord is compassionate enough that He does not just leave the Kali Yug beings abandoned to their fates. He does send His aMshas, shaktyAveshas, Guru avatArs.

These avatArs are obviously not here to show us the full prabhAv (glorious opulence) of BhagavAn. They don't lift Govardhans , expand into 16,000 selves , or send the Sudarshan Chakra to annihilate evil. (Well, this too is done by the Guru avatArs at subtle , philosophical levels). However, they are One with The Supreme Lord in all respects - Atmic ekatva .
The Kali Yug avatArs are mainly to keep the common people on the path of goodness and dharma. To revive their faith in Him. To annihilate the internal demons of kAm , krodh, lobh... (the vices) - the Duryodhans of Kali Yug.


Yada YadA hi dharmasya glanir bhavati ... Whenever and wherever there is decline in religious principles, the Lord is compassionate enough to keep His promise and send shaktyAvesha avatArs of Him, many of which are His pure devotees in Vaikuntha.

NArad Muni (Devarshi) , is a pure devotee of Shri VishNu, but he is really an avatAr (He is called the mind of VishNu) . The 4 Kumars , sons of BrahmA are shaktyAvesha avatArs (empowered beings), but at the same time they are His pure devotees, yearning to see BhagavAn VishNu , at the gates of VaikuNtha.

Some avatArs are prophesied in scriptures, "channa avatArs" , disguised as devotees - like Chaitanya MahAprabhu.

Devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba consider Him an avatAr of DattAtreya (who in turn is VishNu-avatAr playing the role of Guru). Datta-Guru. I am not aware of any scriptural ref. about Him, His devotees do not feel the need for scriptural support.

For some, Jesus is a pure devotee of the Supreme (Father in Heaven) and a shaktyAvesha avatAr. He also brings people to KRshNa. These are personal experiences.

Others do not have to consider all these as avatArs , perhaps simply as saints. There is no force or punishment - the Lord will never impose Himself or His devotees on anyone. He just makes sure there are (1) enough worshippable forms and (2)enough empowered beings sent into the world for the variety of souls out there.

This is the beauty of SanAtan Dharma. There are no ultimatums given, but plenty of Free Will. If one does not surrender to any one of His forms, they may just continue in the kArmic cycle of birth and death. Yet, [non-dogmatic] faith in any one of these forms is auspicious, what to speak of devotion to svayam BhagavAn.

Love cannot be forced. Many in the world have to learn this. If they do, all these religious wars will not exist. KRshNa is smart - He gives Free Will. Set the birds free. If they come back to Him on their own, they are His forever.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM




In my Saiva tradition, Tirujnana Sambandar was said to have walked into the sanctum with his whole wedding party and disappeared into the Sivaloka. Do you believe in that one? I'm not sure if I do or not.

Aum Namasivaya

I have no reason to judge on some thing I not familiar with, sure there are many examples of Bhakta where Viman from Vainkutha came to get them what to speak off Mirabai who merged in to Dwarkadhis murti.

These are faith that is hard to verify or judge by mere mortal like me. But I will relate a story and I keep it short, Naradmuni once informed a bhakta that Vishnu was threading elephant through the eye of a needle upon hearing that the Bhakta was overjoyed, seeing that Nardmuni asked how could you believe that? Simple he said if the Lord can have banyan tree in a seed, what is so difficult in there to thread an elephant through the eye off a needle?

Funny thing this faith, Vedas, very few study or understand but Ramayan and Mahabharat and Puranas form the bases of most Hindus beliefs, we reduce it to fiction then very foundation is questioned, yes if the ithihas is reduced to allegoric or fiction that is what it amount to. We might as well forget about the Rameshvaram and the bridge that was built by Vanaras. It would have been hard to believe someone could converse with somebody miles apart before the advent of telephone, yet that is what ten Headed Ravan did with Ahiravan continent apart.

It is hard to believe elephant head Ganesh with four hand or six heads of Kartik what to speak of 5 headed Shiva with garland of snakes, crescent and Ganga on his head. All these are enough to tax my brain but for me it is either all or nothing.

That is not to say there are no metaphor spoken in there or extrapolation by various interested parties, yet I stand firm in the belief all this is true, for the Lord there is nothing impossible.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

Please understand that I do not think that anything is off limits to the Lord. I believe God can do literally anything. The issue for me is not whether God was capable of doing these things, but whether these things actually happened here on Earth.

One of the biggest problems I have with Christianity is that a lot of Christians interpret the Bible literally, and because of that they believe that the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old, humans are the same age, and humans coexisted with dinosaurs. They also believed that just a few thousand years ago there was a giant flood that destroyed nearly all life on Earth, and somebody built a giant boat to save two of every creature. To literally believe all of those things is just ridiculous. I have no doubt that Lord Hanuman, being divine, was capable of lifting and moving a mountain. But did that actually occur here on Earth? Where is that mountain now?

I am inclined to take Eastern Mind's view that the Itihasas are sort of like historical fiction. If I were to believe that the whole thing is fiction, then serious problems would arrive with my beliefs. What would I think of all of Lord Vishnu's nine avatars then? As a strong devotee of Lord Krishna, I do believe that He was here on Earth and spoke the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna. I believe that Lord Rama really was an actual king, but perhaps some of the tales about His life were exaggerated?

I read that Valmiki is the author of the Ramayana and Vyasa is the author of the Mahabharata. Would you view them as historians then who wrote these epic history books? Or more as poets who wrote these epic poems describing possible historical events with exaggerations? Can you or anyone else tell me more about these two figures? How did they gain the knowledge to write these two books? Were they actual witnesses to the events or were they divinely guided? I know Christians believe the people who wrote the books of the Bible were divinely guided by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps more knowledge of the two men known as the authors of the Itihasas will help me formulate an opinion on the reality of the works.

Hare Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam all:

I do believe that with God, basically anything is possible. I've had too many personal unexplained events in my life to deny that. (And no its not just the fact I found a life mate for a beast like me.) But just because it is possible doesn't mean I believed it happened.

If we are to throw scorn at the Christian creation belief or at least cast severe scientific doubt on it, then also I would say that of our puranas. Its not just flying, its a ton of things, like placing an elephants head on a man, riding a peacock, riding around on a mouse. (I'm using my own Saiva ones as examples on purpose.) It doesn't jive with science, yet much of our other stuff does fit with science.

But in actuality I don't care because I have a more practical side than that. Right now, how has this story or these stories helped with this soul's evolution? Would I or anybody here be acting any differently had they not heard the stories? What is it that makes me practice my religion the way I do?

For me it still remains my own spine, my own intuition, and the advice of the sages. Basic stuff like don't cheat, be kind, be loyal ... all that and more. Totally distinct from the stories.

Aum Namasivaya

[smaranam]

Namaste,

Please understand that I do not think that anything is off limits to the Lord. I believe God can do literally anything. The issue for me is not whether God was capable of doing these things, but whether these things actually happened here on Earth.

Hare Krishna

Namaste Ramakrishna

We do understand. Also, i just want to make it clear that my post above (unlike all others on this thread) is not even remotely touching your original qn. It is only about why modern day avatArs do not appear like historical ones - since the discussion came up.

The OP qn is about Itihas i.e. history on earth, so it does not include purANas, let's keep them aside for a moment.

Itihas is recorded history + poetic skills, which had to come from the Divine, there is no other way the whole thing could fit so amazingly well.

All i will say right now is : We are too conditioned to look at everything in our own material way , so the tendency is to compare with what our gross senses can comprehend. Including the strong assumption that what has not been invented/possible in modern science so far, could not possibly exist thousands of years ago. Its like science fiction today can turn into science tomorrow, but also science long ago.

The celestials (Devas) did interact with humans long ago, however,
we have to remember - they did so on a different platform - much higher than the material platform we are on. Shrila Veda Vyasa relates it to us in a language we can understand and comprehend with the material senses, using our pool of material knowledge.

The known advice is to keep going with the assumption that "I am not ready to understand this yet". Then things will be clearer one day.

Hare Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Smaranam: I'm learning stuff from this thread . Thank you for that. I had to do a bit of research and understand the Ramayana refers to the Treta Yuga, and my understanding about that involves lighter bodies, and yes, more interaction with devas.

I have never ever really looked into it. My understanding now is that this history was recorded around 400 BC, but was actually about history said to be 8000 years ago. There would have had to be some divine info coming through the writer. Is that correct? Or are there different interpretations and ideas?

Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

• The term 'itihAsa' splits into 'iti+ha+asa'--'thus verily happened'. Although 'itiAsa' by itself means 'it happened', so history, the additional 'ha' emphasizes that it 'verily, assuredly, really' happened.

• Another speciality of an itihAsa is that it was written while it happened. VAlmIki Rshi wrote his 'RAmAyaNa' during the time shrI RAmA lived. It was in VAlmIki's Ashram that SItA had delivered her twins Lava and Kusha. VyAsa maharshi too witnessed the incidents he narrates in his 'MahAbhArata'. He was the Vyasa was grandfather to the Kauravas and PANDavas.

• It is possible for great sages and yogis to merge with Ishvara without leaving any mortal remains, sublimating them instantly to their sources as a camphor burns. Apart from TirujnAna Sambandhar, Adi Shankara is said have entered Goddess KAmAkshi's sannidhi in KAnchi and merged with her. A recent case is that of RAmalinga SvAmigaL. This is how his disappearance is described in the Wikipedia:

"Adigal on January 30, 1874, entered the room and locked himself and told his followers not to open it. He said that even if they did open it they would find nothing. His seclusion spurred many rumors, and the Government finally forced the doors open in May. The room was empty, with no clues. The Madras District Gazetteer published by the South Arcot District in 1906 records his disappearance." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramalinga_Swamigal)

Some links to research on the itihAsas RAmAyaNa and MahAbhArata:
Lanka: Location of: Sirdar MV Kibe
http://www.archive.org/details/locationoflanka035096mbp

Lanka: Trail in: BR haran
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7731363/Ramayana-Trail-in-Srilanka

rAma: Date: saroj bAla
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7338350/Lord-Ram-Was-Born-in-5114-BC

rAmAyaNa: not myth
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13262414/Ramayan-by-Valmiki-Was-Not-Just-a-Myth-or-a-Legend

rAmAyaNa: Proof of
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3991924/Proof-Of-Ramayana

vimAna-s: king rAvaNa
http://www.scribd.com/doc/243182/Vimanas-King-Ravana-Ancient-Flying-Matchiens-IV

mahAbhArata: Dating: celestial: RN ayyangAr
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6290755/Historicity-of-Mahabharata-by-RN-Iyengar-QJMythic-society2003

mahAbhArata: dating: timeline: KNS patnAik
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7272399/Mahabharat-Timeline

mahAbhArata: dating: war: subhASh kAk
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6403178/The-Date-of-the-Mahabharata-War

mahAbhArata: Nuclear blast?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15966371/ANCIENT-CITY-FOUND-ATOMIC-BLAST

mahAbhArata: Nuclear weapons?: C.Mulligan
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7235168/Ancient-Nuclear-Weapons

dvAraka: Geological: RNI,BPR
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5991606/Where-could-have-been-Dwaraka-by-RNI-and-BPR

dvAraka: Sunken City
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8734803/The-Sunken-City-of-Dwarka

**********

[smaranam]

praNAm Saidevoji

Thanks for all the links. I always found the DwarkA excavations interesting - quite an achievement.


**RAma appeared much earlier acc. to PurAN :

He appeared in the TretA Yug of the 24th cycle.

1. Several acharyas point out that VAyu PurAN 70.47-48, and BramhAnda PurAN state Shri RAm appeared in the 24th Chaturyuga cycle and we are now in the 28th cycle (of Vaivaswata Manu).


2. RamayaN says RAvaNa's palace was guarded by strange animals, 4 tusked elephants (like Indra's ) and 3 tusked animals.
One author suggests this means RAmayaN occured around ice age. http://www.hinduwebsite.com/history/research/distortions.asp


-------------

I haven't been able to locate VAyu PurAN 70.47-48, but the 4 tusked elephants and 3 tusked animals , and considering earth's old history (billions of yrs - roughly 4? ) and plate tectonics, geological plate changes, foldings, (BhagvAn VishNu created new mountains...) all points to the 20 million old history.

More interesting links in the next post....

[smaranam]

Relevance of Manvantara Cycles in the Indian History
http://kmarasakatla.org/earth/indology.html

Sri Lanka was always accompanied the India on its journey from Africa around 65 million years ago to the present position and at some point of time crossed the equator. Africa also moved northward from that initial position in this period. We never envisioned the plate tectonics as part of the history because we assumed the human evolution as a recent phenomena.....
Such a vast history of ancient India, which even has the scientific base in the ancient writings, has been compressed to a mere 1000-year period. All the false assumptions in the history will get exposed with further exploration in science. History may even become a part of science in the future.

http://kmarasakatla.org/allpages.html
Earth History from the Ancient Texts and It’s Relevance to the Science

http://kmarasakatla.org/earth/ancienttexts.html
Manvantara Cycles from the Ancient Vedic Texts

Ancient Indian Vedic texts described the Earth history in terms of Manvantara cycles. There were a total of six complete Manvantara cycles in the history of the Earth and the present is the seventh cycle (3, 4). Each of the cycles begins with a global deluge on the surface of the Earth. In each of the global deluge, Manu saves the species on the Earth in an Ark. There were no species on the Earth before the first deluge therefore the first Manu was described as the first human being. Manvantara is the period between two consecutive Manus and lasts for approximately 308 My. The past six Manus were Swayambhuva Manu, Svarokisha Manu, Auttami Manu, Tamasa Manu, Raivata Manu and Kakshusha Manu. The present Manvantara began with the Vaivaswatha Manu.

According to these texts the age of the Earth turns out to be around 2 billion years

This is consistent with Shrimad BhAgvatam saying we are in the 7th Manwantara :

>>Lord BrahmA's life consists of 2 'Parardha-s' , each being 50 Brahma yrs long.
>>Our present BrahmAji has entered His 51st year - 1st day 1st yr of the 2nd 'Parardha'.
>>We are in the 7th Manwantara (period of Manu) - half way since there are 14 Manwantaras.

- Ref : "Glory of Krishna" - by Swami ChinmayAnanda


Shri KRshNA Govinda Hare MurAre
He nAth NArAyaNa VAsudeva ~

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

We know history to be his + story.


If we take saidevo's lead we can look at this iti + ha +āsa and add a few more ideas:

iti - in this manner , thus . If we look to its original signification íti refers to something that has been said or thought , or lays stress on what precedes
Take a look at 'ha' .We know it is the 33rd and last consonant of the nāgarī alphabet; This is in pāṇini's system belonging to the guttural class ,
and usually pronounced like the English 'h' in hard ; As I understand it is not an original letter , but is mostly derived from an older 'gh' , and hence ;
If we look at ha - and its 3rd derivitve this word is identical with gha , and used as a particle for emphasizing a preceding word. So in this case the emphisis
is on iti.
By the way 'ha' also means and is considered a form of śiva or bhairava
Now this āsa - is defined as a seat, ( as in āsana ); lower part of the body behind, and also a bow. The key definition is posteriors ;
It is from this notion of posteriors that we can arive at past tense, 'was', or 'before' i.e. a post ( past ) time. We then can come to one defintion:

iti ( thus! ) + ( ha emphasis on iti ! ) + was before (āsa)

Yet if we choose to look at ha as hā ( long a ) we can extend the idea just a bit more. This hā has a defintion ( one of many) as knowledge,
Now we have thus + knowledge + (of ) was before.

Another view I am fond of is the following: hā is associated with śiva or bhairava , it is defined as an emission ' to cause to emit'.
Many know of this letter called visagra ḥ. Visarga is defined as sending forth , emission . Yet we can use this now in iti + hā +āsa
and this now becomes thus + (the) emmision of + (what) was before.

praṇām

[kd gupta]

Itihaas means iti+hraas , or this happened same as sometime before EM and Smaranam had green lights and now black for unknown reason . Vedas word Kasmai devay havisha vidhem has three meanings , 1 as per Saidevoji affirmative meaning , 2 as per Advaitins Aham brahmasmi and meaning by Goswamiji , Chahat vari par bheet uthava or erecting the wall on water surface ;) and 3 as Sachchidanad roop or Sagun parmatma . Sagun worship does not need history as it is subjected to shraddha only . Krsn says..
Ashraddhayaa hutam dattam tapastaptam kritam cha yat;
Asadityuchyate paartha na cha tatpretya no iha.
Whatever is sacrificed, given or performed, and whatever austerity is practised without
faith, it is called Asat, O Arjuna! It is naught here or hereafter (after death).
Whatever sacrifice, austerity or charity done without being dedicated
to the Lord will be of no avail to the doer in this earthly life here or in the life beyond hereafter.

And the dedication can be done to Sagun only , again see…
Patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktyaa prayacchati;
Tadaham bhaktyupahritamashnaami prayataatmanah.
Whoever offers Me with devotion and a pure mind (heart), a leaf, a flower, a fruit or a
little water—I [ not accept , but ashnami means eat ] so eat (this offering).

And Sagun Brahman only can EAT .

[smaranam]

Sagun worship does not need history as it is subjected to shraddha only

praNAm Guptaji,

I agree completely. Really, KRshNa is all that matters to me. KRshNa is eternal, itihaas is one-time, yet His Divine touch makes it immortal.
I don't care about itihaas except for the part that it is drinking the nectar of His pastimes, and drowning in awe of His creation, His 'harkatein' , and the astonishing accuracy of the Vedas.


Itihaas means iti+haas , or this happened same as sometime before EM and Smaranam had green lights and now black for unknown reason .

I don't understand what you mean.

I am agreeing with what Saidevoji said, that itihaas was written while it happened. Rshi VAlmiki participated in RAma LIlA, So did KRshNa Dwaipayana VedaVyAs in KRshNa LIla.

>>Only suggesting that Shri RAm appeared 19-20 million years ago (rather than 7-9000 yrs ago)
>> in the 24th Chaturyuga cycle of Vaivaswata Manu, while we are now in the 28th cycle. Agni PurAN 70.47-48 (please see post #14).

Post #15 shows a theory about geological changes over milleniums and how indeed itihAs and purANas are showing it. Another author - K. V. RamKrishna Rao , says the 4 tusked animals around RAvaNa's palace are Tetrabeloton, Dynothiyar - who lived 13 to 63 to 135 million YBP.

---

Truth is not always convincing, and perhaps it should not be spoken when there is a risk of creating more disbelief and shaking people's faith. However, if it is the truth, it IS. We cannot compromise it for the sake of human material conditioning of how it is supposed to happen.

Jai Shri KRshNa

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

Interesting question but as a Hindu, Itihasa is history.

The important thing to keep in mind is, we cannot analyze the events of a different yuga in the present one. The way things were might have been quite different at those times (people being able to communicate with animals), advanced technologies that we have had to 're'-discover etc.

The thing that has been really nagging, at least for me, is the question of time-scales.

Some people, like Sri Yukteswar, state that the yugas have to be interpreted in a certain way so Kali Yuga will end in 2012 etc. while the traditionalists hold on to the view that yugas are thousands of years long (solar years). With this view, Rama's Bridge found from Rameswaram fits the bill because that bridge is supposed to be ~1.7 Million years old. And the Treta Yuga is around that time!

Nonetheless, I firmly believe in the historicity, however quirky it may sound to us now, of the Itihasas.

The thing I haven't figured out is, how do you wrap a snake around a mountain!?? :D

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

That is what python do, warps round its victim to make a kill, here though big Vasuki agreed to be used as a rope, snakes have no difficulty to coil up, so I see no problem here, but I have read mountains had wings and moved about now try solve that conundrum.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam all:

Reading all the various interpretations regarding timelines, who wrote what when, and events has strengthened my agnosticism towards history.

My answer to it all is "I don't know." Anyone here who believes it is literal history absolutely has my best wishes in regards to proving it. Even recent history gets distorted, let alone the ancient stuff.

Rationalists will tell you flat out that the 'bridge' between Lanka and India is just hearsay, and that the low seawater levels are a natural phenomena. My answer to them is also "I don't know." Even the conjecture that the Bering Strait was once a land bridge is a conjecture. All the various migrations, and when and where things happened is conjecture. Carbon dating has helped but look at the AIT and the debates that happened over it.

I recall talking with a Vietnam vet. He said his small 'on the front' platoon made a pact to keep themselves alive. They would go out each day, fire off a few rounds into the nearby bushes, then head back to the safety of where they were camped. Each evening they would radio in how many rounds, and how many Viet Cong they had encountered and killed. The whole thing was a total lie, but they all came back alive to their loved ones. So war stats get terribly biased.

History, the yugas, all of it is conjecture to some degree. Many psychics including my own Guru (Lemurian Scrolls) have been able to access or have claimed to have accessed the great akashic library where the history of the universe is kept. They often point to soul's migrating to this planet from another one, and speak of many yugas, cycles, and dimensions. Much of it comes in sporadically.

There are stories from ancient Europe like the knights Templar, King Arthur, and Robin Hood, that I feel the same way about. I don't know.

It remains to me... "How can I apply this to my life today to benefit the purpose of life on this planet: self-realisation?

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

Thanks EM for best wishes, i need no proof nor do i need to to prove it to anyone, i agree recent history is strewn with distortion with wested interest.
i like to think Valmiki and Vyasdev had no such personal gain other then spiritual upliftment of the masses.

sure there are a lot of events that are well beyond my understanding, as you say it does not matter because it should not impact our search for the truth or for that matter striving to be a better Hindu, in the end it is our karma or niskam karma that would help us cross over.

unlike your agnostic stance i like to think this were events that took place, however difficult to digest that an event like churning off ocean, if i question the validity of it, then i have to question Neelkhant Mahadeva drinking the poison also,

so best luck to you too.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

After reading all of your replies and thinking long and hard about it, I am leaning towards thinking that the Itihasas were actual historical events that literally took place on here on Earth. The main reason I am thinking this is because I am a Vaishnavite, and I believe in the avatars of Lord Vishnu. If the Ramayana did not literally happen, then Lord Rama, an avatar of Lord Vishnu, was not literally on this Earth. If the Mahabharata did not literally happen, then Lord Krishna was not literally on this Earth and he did not literally speak the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna.

Eastern Mind, I would like to know what you specifically think about this. I know that you are a Saivte, but do you still believe in the avatars of Lord Vishnu. Do you still believe that those avatars were present here on Earth?

Hare Krishna

[devotee]

You have the fruit to eat. You are hungry. Will you try to ascertain whether it actually grew on a tree or you will simply eat it ?

It is not really important whether it "actually happend" -- because "actually" is not always what you learn through history.

OM

[grames]

Dear Rama Krishna,

It is really a surprise that you have the Heros of these two epics as your id but not sure whether to believe their leela or not. :). I think Shri Samaranam has already elaborated a lot about this topic and i would like to just add few points.

Most of us have staunch faith in recent advancement in science but we rarely question ourselves about rationality behind this faith of ours. If this modern science says that mountains cannot fly because, to fly these these criteria blah blah has to be there etc. we believe it with out questioning it for two reasons. First, we have tons of faith on such science verdicts and we do not question them. Secondly, we do not know really "all about all" and so whatever we know little is big enough for us to believe that whatever the science says it ultimatum and that's the only truth. For this reason only we brand this kind of science as "Material Science" where the whole attention and focus is only on knowing the characteristics of matter and interaction of matter with other matter. And this science is evolving, imperfect still, not complete but we ignore all such symptoms but put our total faith on this as end of Truth.

Since most of here are believing in something called "consciousness", how utopian it is to reason out various thing with the view of "consciousness" manipulating the matter? For example, someone wonder here how a mountain can fly? But, the same person if shown a flying aircraft of today which is as big as a little mountain in weight, he will believe it with out any doubt or compromises. Why can't the believers of "consciousness" can utilize such evidences to believe that "mountains" also might have been flying but under the direction of a personality with "consciousness". This is the whole idea in the Vedas and Puranas and most of us believe in personalities like Sun God, Moon God, Indra etc. and they basically ruled the matter they have dominion over.

My opinion on the great epics is, they must have happened and they were real. If you read MTBN of Shri Madhva, ( Who was a witness in both the Epics as Shri Hanuman and as Shri Bheema Sena) you will realize that Mahabaratha happened for real and GuruKshetra is for real and such knowledge from a witness will give you lot of accurate details for your rational quest. Faith is in fact dependent on your source of information as well as your level of discrimination capacity. As Devotee said, the fruits ( epics) are there and they are described as sweet, powerful and resourceful for your eternal elevation. Are you Hungry? Or going to behave like "No no these grapes are sour" or " No no they are just imaginations"?

Its all again individual's choice. Whats yours?

Hare Krshna!

[Eastern Mind]

Eastern Mind, I would like to know what you specifically think about this. I know that you are a Saivte, but do you still believe in the avatars of Lord Vishnu. Do you still believe that those avatars were present here on Earth?

Hare Krishna

Vannakkam Ranakrishna:

I an still an agnostic in these matters. Its not part of traditional Saiva lore, just as the Bible (from other threads) isn`t part of SD. But I must say after this thread I am closer to believing it may have happened than before. Such is the reason for discussion. At least now I understand the Vaishnava perspective better. We all have the right to believe whatever we want. I would prefer to focus on commonalities of the many paths within Hinduism. But you have to understand that the sects of Hinduism: Vaishnava, Saiva, Shakta, Smarta, etc, are as different as the Abrahamic religions are to each other.

If you claim to be a Vaishnava, then my opinion shouldn't matter much now should it?

I just received a recently published book on the 63 Nayanmars, or Saiva Saints. I don't expect you to want to read it.


Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Vishnu has taken the responsibility to take avatars in order to save humanity. (yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata...) Shiva does not take birth, but he appears in different forms when his devotees need him. His anshas has appeared as Hanuman and Virabhadra.


Its not part of traditional Saiva lore, just as the Bible (from other threads) isn`t part of HD.

I think this is a matter of emphasis, rather than complete denial of other Gods or avatar within Hinduism.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam ji


For example, someone wonder here how a mountain can fly? But, the same person if shown a flying aircraft of today which is as big as a little mountain in weight, he will believe it with out any doubt or compromises. Why can't the believers of "consciousness" can utilize such evidences to believe that "mountains" also might have been flying but under the direction of a personality with "consciousness".

That someone would be me!
i may wonder how, but if you read in between the line, for me it is all or nothing barring extrapolation, do i claim to understand it all? NO

but thanks for your explaination anyway.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

I think this is a matter of emphasis, rather than complete denial of other Gods or avatar within Hinduism.
[/font][/color]

Vannakkam:

Absolutely ... An example is if I'm travelling in America, and feel the need to worship God, I would go to whatever Hindu temple is in town, be it ISKCON, a Kali Bar or any other. It's a place to feel at home in the presence of God. Ultimately he is the Nameless one.


Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

Dear Rama Krishna,

It is really a surprise that you have the Heros of these two epics as your id but not sure whether to believe their leela or not. :). I think Shri Samaranam has already elaborated a lot about this topic and i would like to just add few points.

Most of us have staunch faith in recent advancement in science but we rarely question ourselves about rationality behind this faith of ours. If this modern science says that mountains cannot fly because, to fly these these criteria blah blah has to be there etc. we believe it with out questioning it for two reasons. First, we have tons of faith on such science verdicts and we do not question them. Secondly, we do not know really "all about all" and so whatever we know little is big enough for us to believe that whatever the science says it ultimatum and that's the only truth. For this reason only we brand this kind of science as "Material Science" where the whole attention and focus is only on knowing the characteristics of matter and interaction of matter with other matter. And this science is evolving, imperfect still, not complete but we ignore all such symptoms but put our total faith on this as end of Truth.

Since most of here are believing in something called "consciousness", how utopian it is to reason out various thing with the view of "consciousness" manipulating the matter? For example, someone wonder here how a mountain can fly? But, the same person if shown a flying aircraft of today which is as big as a little mountain in weight, he will believe it with out any doubt or compromises. Why can't the believers of "consciousness" can utilize such evidences to believe that "mountains" also might have been flying but under the direction of a personality with "consciousness". This is the whole idea in the Vedas and Puranas and most of us believe in personalities like Sun God, Moon God, Indra etc. and they basically ruled the matter they have dominion over.

My opinion on the great epics is, they must have happened and they were real. If you read MTBN of Shri Madhva, ( Who was a witness in both the Epics as Shri Hanuman and as Shri Bheema Sena) you will realize that Mahabaratha happened for real and GuruKshetra is for real and such knowledge from a witness will give you lot of accurate details for your rational quest. Faith is in fact dependent on your source of information as well as your level of discrimination capacity. As Devotee said, the fruits ( epics) are there and they are described as sweet, powerful and resourceful for your eternal elevation. Are you Hungry? Or going to behave like "No no these grapes are sour" or " No no they are just imaginations"?

Its all again individual's choice. Whats yours?

Hare Krshna!

Namaste grames,

Thank you for that explanation, it was very helpful. I now believe with certainty that all of the events in the Itihasas were actual, historical events that literally took place here on Earth.

I know this may not sound like such a huge issue to others, but it really is very important for me whether the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are records of actual historical events or symbolic and allegorical stories. As I've said before, one of the biggest problems I have with Christianity is how a lot of Christians literally believe that the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old, man was created in that same time period, there was a giant flood that destroyed nearly all life on Earth just a few thousand years ago, somebody built a giant boat that had two of every creature, etc. None of these events literally happened on Earth, and science, whether material science or any other science, completely disproves those events. However, I suppose events such as flying mountains and Krishna lifting the govardhan with his pinky could have happened here on Earth. Again, I really do believe that anything is possible with God, but to me it's just a question as to whether these things actually happened and occurred here on Earth. I am much more inclined to believe that Hanuman (who was divine) lifted and moved an entire mountain, than I am to believe that God created a massive flood that destroyed nearly all life on Earth and that Noah (who was not divine) built a giant boat and put two of every animal on board. The Bible does not say that God built that boat or that Noah had god-like powers. Noah was just an ordinary human being, and therefore I don't believe that he was able to built a giant boat like that. However, I do believe that God can lift an entire mountain or lift the govardhan with his pinky.

I hope everyone understands what I am trying to say. If not, I would love to clarify my viewpoint.

Hare Krishna

[Ramakrishna]

Vannakkam Ranakrishna:

I an still an agnostic in these matters. Its not part of traditional Saiva lore, just as the Bible (from other threads) isn`t part of SD. But I must say after this thread I am closer to believing it may have happened than before. Such is the reason for discussion. At least now I understand the Vaishnava perspective better. We all have the right to believe whatever we want. I would prefer to focus on commonalities of the many paths within Hinduism. But you have to understand that the sects of Hinduism: Vaishnava, Saiva, Shakta, Smarta, etc, are as different as the Abrahamic religions are to each other.

If you claim to be a Vaishnava, then my opinion shouldn't matter much now should it?

I just received a recently published book on the 63 Nayanmars, or Saiva Saints. I don't expect you to want to read it.


Aum Namasivaya

Namaste Eastern Mind,

I was about to reply to you on this thread, but I decided it would be better to start a new thread about this discussion. This is also a topic I have been thinking about starting for a while now. Please check it out and reply: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=44924#post44924

Hare Krishna

[smaranam]

Namaste Ramakrishna

Please bear with some of my "wild" statements that follow.

First, the Christians' wrong interpretation should not make the entire Bible fiction.



I know this may not sound like such a huge issue to others, but it really is very important for me whether the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are records of actual historical events or symbolic and allegorical stories.
I am glad it is important to you. I think actual stories have a lot of lessons running in parellel , that's when we can say the events were brought about by the Divine for a purpose and were not random.


As I've said before, one of the biggest problems I have with Christianity is how a lot of Christians literally believe that the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old, man was created in that same time period,

How do we assume those are earth years we are talking about ?


there was a giant flood that destroyed nearly all life on Earth just a few thousand years ago, somebody built a giant boat that had two of every creature, etc.

The deluge ? Why is it so hard to believe, once we understand the time scale
was probably not earth years. Also, does the Bible state a year number and date ? If not it is false interpretation by humans.


None of these events literally happened on Earth, and science, whether material science or any other science, completely disproves those events.

Can science go even one Kalpa back in time ?


However, I suppose events such as flying mountains and Krishna lifting [COLOR=Black][FONT=Arial]the govardhan with his pinky could have happened here on Earth. Again, I really do believe that anything is possible with God, but to me it's just a question as to whether these things actually happened and occurred here on Earth. I am much more inclined to believe that Hanuman (who was divine) lifted and moved an entire mountain, than I am to believe that God created a massive flood that destroyed nearly all life on Earth and that Noah (who was not divine) built a giant boat and put two of every animal on board. The Bible does not say that God built that boat or that Noah had god-like powers. Noah was just an ordinary human being, and therefore I don't believe that he was able to built a giant boat like that. However, I do believe that God can lift an entire mountain or lift the govardhan with his pinky.

Yes, there is no questioning KRSNa's lifting Govardhan something soo so trivial for Him. Hanuman is Pavan-suta , Son of Wind-god, Pavan. So He had extraordinary superhuman strength. These deities preside over nature. Hanuman should not be considered an ordinary monkey or human. This is why some people have a problem with it. We are so conditioned to think that nature is in our control, that it is only limited to what we have learned in school, like gravity and Newton's Laws of motion.

Noah : Is one of the manus - called "Nyuha" in Bhavishya PurAN.
Nyuha is really a descendant of Adama , a Manu, who looked over the 'mleccha deshas' of the west, he could be specially empowered by the Lord. What is mleccha ? Its the generations started from / sourced by Adama Manu.

Carrying two of each animal into the Ark could be an expression of genetic preservation of species , a play of nature. Perhaps there is more to be read into those lines than we can at present.


Bhavishya PurAN shows connection of Sanatan Dharma history with Bible - Adama & Havyavati , Nyuha

http://astrojyoti.com/BhavishyaPurana.htm
Written by VyAsDev as "History of the Future" shows accurately, all major religious events of the future (Kali Yuga) , which have now taken place. Jesus, Mohammad, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu....

http://ancientindians.net/2009/09/06/connecting-biblical-and-indian-personalities-as-per-bhavishya-purana/

Now this should not be a reason for Christian Missionaries to convert more, rather to OPEN THEIR EYES TO REALITY : THAT SANATAN DHARMA IS THE MOTHER WHOM THEY HAVE BEEN DESTROYING FOR SO LONG.

Jesus need not be denied. His statements have to be understood in the right light. He was showing Himself as the individual self , realization of which, is the way truth life, way to Supreme SELF ( God-realization - of the Father - Bhagvan). The process of self realization leading to God-realization is what Jesus was defining as "himself" - AtmA - way,truth,life.

Secondly, faith in Jesus shows shraddha, and humility , makes one automatically eligible for Bhagavat-prapti, as Bhagavan is pleased thus, but there is no need to turn that into Christian Dogma.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[rainycity]

ramakrishna, just excercise your common sense. Clearly, the itihasas and puranas are mythological. The mahabharata and ramayana are likely to be based on historical events in my opinion, but the mythic elements are obvious. To believe they actually happened is ludicrous and ignorant. Its no different to some christians believing the earth is literaly 6000 years old and other mythic elements of the bible. Reading this thread has caused me to doubt the intellectual honesty of some members of these forums.

[Sahasranama]

Many Hindus believe that these are not just mythology, but real historical events. Of course, there's some symboly, but most of it is believed to be truth. It seems you have not had a lot of exposure to Hindus, because you are so suprised. I know a lot of the stories are hard to understand with the view of modern science. I study mathematics, I know there is no scientific proof for many of the events in the scriptures, but it comes down to faith. Religion is about faith, even Hinduism. If you don't have faith you are better of becomming an atheist or a pseudo vedantin. Pseudo, because even vedanta is based on faith on the prasthanas: upanishads, brahma sutra and bhagavad gita.

There is no religion that's purely based on logic. Reformers have tried to eliminate all elements that are not congruent with modern science, but in the end nothing is left. I can tell you, if you applied rigorous logic, not just common sense, without accepting the words of the vedas as a true statement, the beliefs of any sect within Hinduism can be refuted. You'll be left with new age ideas that are to vague to undergo any serious contemplation, some scientific facts that were part of the religion and psychological tools. Science and logic are important elements in Hinduism, but in the end the validity of the five vedas, rig veda, yajur veda, sama veda, atharva veda, itihasapurana veda, is what makes Hinduism what it is.

I know many swamis will claim that Hinduism is a scientific religion. People are easily fooled by this. This is not something only Hindus will say. Jews, Christians and Muslims all make claims that either the old testament, the new testament or the koran is completely based on science. They will also write concorted commentaries on their scriptures. I don't know how many stories about Jesus and the dinosaurs are circulating among home school kids in the USA. Such concorted commentaries are constantly proven false as the understanding of science is developping. Foolish pseudo scientific claims only result in people trying to debate that their scripture is scientific and the others are not. Religion really is a question of faith, without faith worship is impossible. Don't be suprised that people believe in things that may seem odd in the eyes of modern science.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
(Shakespear)

[Eastern Mind]

I know there is no scientific proof for many of the events in the scriptures, but it comes down to faith.

Vannakkam Sahasranama:

And this is exactly why there is no point arguing. I remember the Ganesha milk-drinking miracle here at out temple. Over three or four days, about 1500 devotees held a spoon full of milk to Ganesha's mouth, and it disappeared. Each one who witnessed it was amazed. It literally disappeared.... somewhere. All 1500 people believed. Others looked under the statue, searched for hidden pipes or straws, thought the idol was hollow etc etc. Scientists around the world said it was 'capillary action' whatever that is. But then it stopped. So did the 'capillary action' I guess.

This is just one example. I have too many more personal ones but sacred is secret, and I don't share many stories.

I still know this man who witnessed the milk thing but still says, "IT DID NOT HAPPEN!" I just laugh.

He has that right too. But rationalists and mystical believers do not have a common point where they can meet. The mysticism is beyond the rationalist's field. A non-swimmer cannot swim - period. If thrown overboard, he believes he will drown, and he will.

Our faith comes from experience. You pray, it gets answered. You pray again, it gets answered again. Someone tells you there is a cloud shaped like a firetruck outside. At first you don't believe. Then you go outside, and there it is. So then you learn to believe that individual. Then he or she tells you other stuff that all comes true. So what to think? The guy is a liar?

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

It's like the first time you feel the child shudder inside your womb....gaining it's soul...or see it born and watch it's beautiful eyes come open...filled with it's own personality and wonderous spirit.

The soul which dwells inside of us is all the proof we need to understand how a mountain can be moved.

This being of light, isolated from the very bliss of it's origin...shuffles around in a flesh covered vehicle from dawn till dusk...if this is possible...then all things are.

[NayaSurya]

Forgive the double posting, my phone rang just as I clicked post and I was so deep in thought I jumped.:P

[rainycity]

Many Hindus believe that these are not just mythology, but real historical events. Of course, there's some symboly, but most of it is believed to be truth. It seems you have not had a lot of exposure to Hindus, because you are so suprised.

I haven't had a lot of exposure to hindus, but I'm not suprised that many hindus believe their myths are real historical events. I'm suprised that some members here believe they are real historical events because they've demonstrated intelligence and knowledge of science.


I know a lot of the stories are hard to understand with the view of modern science. I study mathematics, I know there is no scientific proof for many of the events in the scriptures, but it comes down to faith.

What is the neccessity for ridiculous beliefs like hanuman literally swallowed the sun?


Religion is about faith, even Hinduism. If you don't have faith you are better of becomming an atheist or a pseudo vedantin. Pseudo, because even vedanta is based on faith on the prasthanas: upanishads, brahma sutra and bhagavad gita.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with you on that. The philosophy of the vedanta is a way of thinking which may not neccesarily require any more faith then materialism.



There is no religion that's purely based on logic. Reformers have tried to eliminate all elements that are not congruent with modern science, but in the end nothing is left. I can tell you, if you applied rigorous logic, not just common sense, without accepting the words of the vedas as a true statement, the beliefs of any sect within Hinduism can be refuted.

You need reasons for accepting the vedas as a true statement otherwise its just blind faith. Applying rigorous logic to the vedas may bring you to have no reason to believe many of its claims but I'm not sure if it would refute them. But I think there is more then just rigorous logic on one hand, and blind faith on the other.



I don't know how many stories about Jesus and the dinosaurs are circulating among home school kids in the USA. Such concorted commentaries are constantly proven false as the understanding of science is developping.

I don't see the difference between believing that young earth creationism is science and believing it on blind faith. If you can say that the belief that young earth creationism is science is false, then you have no reason to believe such things at all.

[saidevo]

namaste EM.



But rationalists and mystical believers do not have a common point where they can meet. The mysticism is beyond the rationalist's field.


Is this because a rationalist uses his brain to prove and see and a mystical believer uses his heart to believe and feel?

[devotee]

Dear EM, Sahasranama and others,

Why should we discuss our matter of faith with some non-Hindu like rainycity ? The anti-Hindu demon inside him has somehow awaken again. We can simply ignore him.

We Hindus believe that Hanuman swallowed the Sun & it is historical ... so what ? Why it pains a non-hindu ? Why is he bothered at all what we believe in or not ? Did we go and plead with him for accepting whatever we believe in ?

Hanuman is more real to me than the person holding name as "rainycity" which cannot be a city ! The people who had faith in Hanuman have attained great spiritual heights ... they have been able to cross this ocean of deaths and births with ease. That is the truth. On the contrary, if I believe in a historian or even "rainycity" .... can I gain spiritual heights or reduce my sufferings ? What about people who have "seen" Hanuman ji ? Hanuman ji is deathless and there have been several accounts of devotees having his "darshan". I would like to believe those saints than to believe a historian or rainycity's logic.

I am not bothered if the event ever happened in the human history on this earth ... I am not ready to discuss with anyone if Hanuman existed in flesh and blood or not .... but I am sure by worshipping Him one gets his blessings which lessens the devotee's physical, mental and spiritual sufferings.

Dear rainycity (which is not a city),

If you are really interested in history and not in spirituality you should go to a class of history than to discuss things here on this forum. We very well know what we believe in and why. We don't need a lesson from you. No thanks for your unnecessary concern and efforts to enlighten us with your logic and knowledge ! Your all knowledge gained and all your logic and all your intelligence is not even equal to speck of dust as comapred to the Infinite Intelligence that Reality is. With your insignificant temporary stay in this world & with your imperfect sense organs accumulating "knowledge" here during your stay claims to know everything ? Dear friend, you don't know even "yourself" and are claiming to know the "reality" ? This physical world that you see is not the only reality. The whole reality has existence in many realms which you can never know with your limited power of cognition ..... & things "happen" there too. For your part, you may try to figure out ... who you are, wherefrom you came and where you would go after death and what brought you here in the first place. Please go and ask some historian. He may have all the details !

OM

[rainycity]

Why should we discuss our matter of faith with some non-Hindu like rainycity ? The anti-Hindu demon inside him has somehow awaken again. We can simply ignore him.

This is the height of ignorance.



I am not bothered if the event ever happened in the human history on this earth ... I am not ready to discuss with anyone if Hanuman existed in flesh and blood or not .... but I am sure by worshipping Him one gets his blessings which lessens the devotee's physical, mental and spiritual sufferings.

exactly, so why focus on the mythic subconscient imagery as literal material world events? whats the necessity?



We very well know what we believe in and why.

so why can't you discuss it with me?

Do you believe the mythology of all the worlds cultures? Did a rainbow snake move over the earth creating its mountains and rivers in its course? Was the whole world flooded with noah and his family as the only survivors? What about all the conflicting myths of the puranas, can two contradictory fairytales be true at the same time?

[devotee]

This is the height of ignorance.

Thanks for your observation otherwise who has time to keep judging people like you ? Thanks for your time that you wasted in making this observation.


exactly, so why focus on the mythic subconscient imagery as literal material world events? whats the necessity?

so why can't you discuss it with me?

Because you are not a Hindu and you have anti-Hindu feelings.


Do you believe the mythology of all the worlds cultures? Did a rainbow snake move over the earth creating its mountains and rivers in its course? Was the whole world flooded with noah and his family as the only survivors? What about all the conflicting myths of the puranas, can two contradictory fairytales be true at the same time?

No, I don't believe. I have no problem if you believe or disbelieve them ! :)

OM

[MahaHrada]

Of course Hanuman swallowed the sun, and the kundalini is a real beautiful snake living in the backbone she is moving up in the body every day drinking the milk that is produce by the little cow in the brain, when the milk is empty the snake fall down of hunger she dies turns ugly and brown and the old dead snake come out of your back side and a new one is born inside this happens all over and over gain.

You better belive this, get some shraddha, quick! chello chello Alll you anti Hindu demon you hateful bastard mullah popes damm it :) ferengi khota chup kar ! JAI HIND !

[rainycity]

Of course Hanuman swallowed the sun, and the kundalini is a real beautiful snake living in the backbone she is moving up in the body every day drinking the milk that is produce by the little cow in the brain, when the milk is empty the snake fall down of hunger she dies turns ugly and brown and the old dead snake come out of your back side and a new one is born inside this happens all over and over gain.

You better belive this, get some shraddha, quick! chello chello Alll you anti Hindu demon you hateful bastard mullah popes damm it :) ferengi khota chup kar ! JAI HIND !

:)


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[smaranam]

so why focus on the mythic subconscient imagery as literal material world events? whats the necessity?

Namaste RainyCity

I think what always happens is - a play of words. Words are all we have, plus our material knowledge pool (which some call frog-in-a-well) , so we end up being the six blind men and the elephant. That could be all involved in the conversation, myself included.

Some look at Hanuman , Pavan, Indra, Varun as a 'mythologicala personification' of a natural force. Therein lies the difference. These are deities presiding on nature. PrakRti is Devi, a person. Kundalini is Devi , a person. They are all subordinate to and servants of the Supreme Lord. "Natural phenomena" are not random, there is organized coordinated will behind them.

We cannot simply take away the beauty of this Sanatan Truth by discarding , disregarding this, it is damage to the Dharma. Now when we say person, immediately a human brain visualises a flesh-and-blood person like him/her. Not necessarily. Person is a reservoir of personality. ( Praying to Saraswati Devi , who arose from the mouth of BhagavAn Shri KRshNa will help understand this beautiful aitihAsic poetry - if one is really interested. )

If Hanuman is son of Pavan (Wind God), he inherits all powers of Pavan, plus is originally sparkling pure , drenched in Dasya - servitude and devotion to Shri RAm. We take this purity and dAsya from Hanuman, and we rever His strength and capability, as well as His humility despite the extraordinary gifts.

Hanuman as Vayu , in his innocence, overpowered the Sun's ability to shine strongly on the planet. If Sun does not shine we know the repurcussions. It shows how strong Hanuman was. No other "grown up" DevtA would consciously try the Sun's patience.

If Hanuman was not a person, He would not bestow gifts on His devotees - like peace - manah: shanti, strength of mind - manobal, devotion - bhakti, servitude - dAsya, and drive away obstacles , impediments and difficulties. As well as give Darshan.

I shall repeat what i said earlier :



Itihas is recorded history + poetic skills, which had to come from the Divine, there is no other way the whole thing could fit so amazingly well.

All i will say right now is : We are too conditioned to look at everything in our own material way , so the tendency is to compare with what our gross senses can comprehend. Including the strong assumption that what has not been invented/possible in modern science so far, could not possibly exist thousands of years ago. Its like science fiction today can turn into science tomorrow, but also science long ago.

The celestials (Devas) did interact with humans long ago, however,
we have to remember - they did so on a different platform - much higher than the material platform we are on. Shrila Veda Vyasa relates it to us in a language we can understand and comprehend with the material senses, using our pool of material knowledge.

The known advice is to keep going with the assumption that "I am not ready to understand this yet". Then things will be clearer one day.

Hare Krishna

Certainly , there is more than what meets the eye, sometimes reading between the lines is necessary, but because of the limitations we pose on ourself, drawing from worldly knowledge, we MAP it to what we already know. We decide what the story is saying, then ridicule it based on our pool of knowledge. Whereas, the story could be a real occurence but understandable on a higher / different plane. This is itihAs we are discussing, not to be clubbed with purAN.

Like 100 prachetas went under the sea to meditate. Now are we supposed to think whether they had lungs or gills ? Or whether they had yogic power to do so despite human anatomy ? Were they even humans to begin with ? We don't know enough to superimpose our worldly knowledge on this.

I was only trying to help. No intention to be offensive to anyone, please forgive my shortcomings.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[MahaHrada]

Now you please use the brain not let it misuse you :) Hanuman is connected with the Wind, and he is a great Yogi. We pray to him to give control over Prana-Life energy moving in the Nadis. That Vayu and the maruts, the wind it is all connected with Prana. This life energy is occuring in a state duality, and running in the dual pair of Ida and Pingala currents which are presided over by the sun and moon.

If Hanuman swallows the sun he is swallowing it in his yogic Body.

The sun can be also a symbol of maya and the objects of senses, it has to be swallowed or stopped, for the reason to move the bindu meaning, mind attention and life energy, in oppositte direction by internalising the mind focus in meditation, i.e. by pratyahara this is the true yogic meaning of becoming urdhvaretas , which has nothing to do with physical body fluids, but whether the moon/bindu/shukra (mind etc) is burned in the sun (of the appearance of sense objects) and mortality is experienced or the process is reversed by Yoga. Which is the drinking of the Amrita. Asuras get distracted by Maya and therefore cannot drink. Besides the devas only Rahu "the swallower of the sun during eclipse" gets a share of Amrita. BTW his lower part is a snake.

Same symbolism in the churning of the Ocean. The churning rod is the world axis and the churning is the precession of the zodiac marking great time cycles, described with due consideration of the symbolism w.r.t the human body and the subtle body. Shiva holds the Poison part in his throat by the help from the 17th kala of the moon (immortality the amrita, beyond time i.e beyond the 16 "mortal" tithis or moon phases) on his head and the pressure from below from the snake around his neck, and this way locates it in the throat chakra with 16 petals (16 tithis, moon phases, time measurement by the moon) That is mortality and destruction. Space and time is measured in these Myths, using astronomical observation by the precessional movement of the earth axis, the clockwise and counterclockwise "churning" of space the "ocean" by the earth axis. Early Indian astronomers belived that the precessional cycle is doing one clockwise rotation and one counterclockwise each after the other. These elements. ecliptical circle, equatorial, push and pull on the direction of the earth axis are used for measuring these huge precessional time cycles. Of course it is the planets, space and time which brings forth all the good and bad things, the poison of time and death and the elixier of immortality as well. The Myths have been a way of preserving secret knowledge. The preparation of the Agni for the sacrifcial fire by rubbing movement is also related to this ancient astronomical knowledge. The snake wound around the earth axis relates of course to the equatorial i.e earth vs the ecliptical circles. The form of the turtle Kurma is symbolising the horizon and the typical turtle shell markings indicate the spatial intersection grid used for the geodesic measurements. Such a tortoise grid is also used in mantra shastra for determining spatial directions for mantra sadhana

[amra]

There is a book called Hamlets Mill which, if people read it, may cause them to realise that there is so much depth to mythology that a historical/literal interpretation is a minor detail. There is a whole 'language' that has to be learned if the secrets of these stories are to be understood. The syntax used to contruct sentences in this language consists of sciences such as psychology astronomy astrology chemistry physics medicine etc.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hamlets-Mill-Investigating-Knowledge-Transmission/dp/0879232153/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275232463&sr=8-1

[devotee]

Namaste Smaranam and MahaHrada,

That is a good explanation. However, these explanations need not be told to each and everyone. Lord Krishna specifically prohibits doing any such a thing which can hurt anyone's faith. He says, "The fully knowledgeable Jnani should not do anything to create confusion in the mind of simple people who don't know (and are not in a position to understand) much. On the other hand, he should do things in the same way (as the less knowledgeable devotees do) for "loka-sangrah" (for the benefit of the society) and also make others to follow the suit."

Again, the thoughts have the power of creation & act in the same way as God created this whole visible world with his thought-waves. The intense innocent faith/devotion creates things in astral planes the way the devotee/devotees think. So, all deities as the devotees worship them really exist in astral planes. They are as real as the devotees think of them.

Now who can make such things clear to people who are so conditioned within their body-mind prison and with their worldly "truth" that they are unable to think beyond that ?

OM

[smaranam]

Thank You Maharhdaji, for all that wisdom. I always liked to read your posts on Shaktism as well.

Yes, i do understand it is the universe at work simultaneously in the microcosm (individual) as well as macrocosm (mega - macro - outer universe).

About churning the axis and zodiac , the milk ocean of the Milky Way - this is the kind of thing i was implying, except that it does not boil down to mere biology or even psychology and morals , is all i wanted to say. Astronomy, zodiac phenomena also require the Divine Person's intervention.

It is certainly helpful to focus only on the microcosm - that all those devtas are within us, the temple, and they get invoked appropriately. Sun is AtmA, moon is mAnas, agni, prana vayu and so on.

However, we cannot ignore that the same things are happening in the macrocosm as well ? Which may show up in aitihAsic events ? Please correct me if i am wrong.

I also like to dwell in the microcosm alone at times and not look around elsewhere - like we can go thru' cycles of Sat, Treta, dwapar, kali yug within, while the same cycles are happening without.

Swami Chinmayananda writes : When its Kali Yug in the macrocosm, most individuals are in a state of Kali Yug from within. When its Sat Yug in the macrocosm, most individuals are in an internal (microcosmic) state of Sat Yug.
(So one can be in Sat Yug internally , even in Kali Yug today ? When large groups do so, we call it a golden period within Kali Yug , but cannot change the external - its still KaliYug , and has to take its course. )

The external cycles and nature is not in our hands, the internal is not either, but can be changed with devotion, faith and tapascharya.

praNAm

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

my·thol·o·gy over time has evolved into a definion of falsehood or an invented story, idea, or concept ; an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.

Yet mythology and its root word as I see it and study it is a set of stories, traditions, or beliefs associated with a historical event ( arising naturally) that comes from the vādi ( the learned, wise ) for the advancement of truth or expansion of awareness ( iti + ha +āsa )¹ .

Note that myth (mythos) comes from the Greek word mythologia 'legendary lore'


praṇām

reference
1. see post 16 in this string if there is interest.

[MahaHrada]

Thank You Maharhdaji, for all that wisdom. I always liked to read your posts on Shaktism as well.

Yes, i do understand it is the universe at work simultaneously in the microcosm (individual) as well as macrocosm (mega - macro - outer universe).

About churning the axis and zodiac , the milk ocean of the Milky Way - this is the kind of thing i was implying, except that it does not boil down to mere biology or even psychology and morals , is all i wanted to say. Astronomy, zodiac phenomena also require the Divine Person's intervention.

It is certainly helpful to focus only on the microcosm - that all those devatas are within us, the temple, and they get invoked appropriately. Sun is AtmA, moon is mAnas, agni, prana vayu and so on.

However, we cannot ignore that the same things are happening in the macrocosm as well ? Which may show up in aitihAsic events ? Please correct me if i am wrong.

I also like to dwell in the microcosm alone at times and not look around elsewhere - like we can go thru' cycles of Sat, Treta, dwapar, kali yug within, while the same cycles are happening without.

Swami Chinmayananda writes : When its Kali Yug in the macrocosm, most individuals are in a state of Kali Yug from within. When its Sat Yug in the macrocosm, most individuals are in an internal (microcosmic) state of Sat Yug.
(So one can be in Sat Yug internally , even in Kali Yug today ? When large groups do so, we call it a golden period within Kali Yug , but cannot change the external - its still KaliYug , and has to take its course. )

The external cycles and nature is not in our hands, the internal is not either, but can be changed with devotion, faith and tapascharya.

praNAm
Dear Smaranam
Yes of course there is "something" outside of what our mind and body can contain, but of necessity no perceiver, not even a Deva or a Siddha or a Jnani can know more than what is reflected in their own self.

We can invent scientific measuring instruments beyond our abilities, we can develop higher powers of perception to see the realms of devas, but even these inventions or improvements will be limited by what our mind can imagine or conceive or develop.

Even if Indra would be standing next to a dog the dog wil not care for it, it will only care for the bone. For the insect the book of Gita is only food, we can read and contemplate about it and we do not know whats use it has for the devas. But it is always one object, only different perceivers.

So it will always boil down that wherever we go in the outside world, or whatever we see, however high we can develop our powers of perception, everything outside can never be perceived as it really is, so what we see is only the result of what we are.

Thats why wise siddhas and Yogis have said that the perceiver, the act of perception, and the object of perception can not be considered to be separete from each other. Therefore also the Hanuman without cannot be another Hanuman from the Hanuman within. We can only perceive so much of Hanuman as we have of him inside, the rest we cannot see or understand. Even if he would stand right beside us. That means without develping at least some of the qualities of a deva no one can have the darshan of a deva.

So even if we travel to a place where the devas are we cannot see them, unless we develop ourself, if we develop ourself enough, there is no real need to travel to any other loka since it is not useful when perception, perceiver and object is not separete and you find all the qualities within and the devas are only a handbreadth away. The object in this case is the deva. Compared to other Lokas, Siddha loka is not a certain place it is everywhere, that is the achievement of the avadhota.

The universe is actually a multiverse :) there are as many different perception of Devas and Lokas as there are different perceivers to reflect contact with the "outside" which is always originally witout name, Anama, or Alakh (Partless) and without stains of Ego (Niranjan). Since all perceptible objects are appearing diverse while the common ground for perception, is only one substance, shakti or vishnumaya, and every concious perceiver reflecting itself always in its individual countless mirrors, because of his individuality, the darshan of a deva cannot be split from the perceiver at any cost. This ilusion of difference is easier to maintain w.r.t. the material object.

The problem in understanding devas sometimes comes form the idea that they are totally different from a human perceiver. But we can only have so much darshan of a deva as we have in common.

Whether the Book is just food or something we can read depends on whether we are an insect or a human not at all on the book it stays the same.

[satay]

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