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SethDrebitko
18 May 2010, 07:35 PM
I see a great deal of Hindus worrying that Christianity is rapidly growing and expanding, and (not to offend) but it makes me laugh. Christianity is on an overall decline, do not fear this starving beast. The aggressive hungry expansion of Christianity into economically poor countries are its death-throws.

I rejoice that protestant christians have lost over 10% of their followers in the US alone since the 90's. The catholics are taking it harder; the only thing that kept their drop at 6% was the millions of Latino catholics flooding into the country. Over 16% decline in christianity in the US, churches are closing all the time! I hope you take this as good news, and encouragement that you have a fighting chance.

The two drives of christian growth are:

Poverty
Uneducated masses


Speaking as an outsider looking in; there are many uneducated people in India who are treaded on by higher castes, and christianity prides itself on reaching out to the downtrodden. By reaching out more to those below your cast, and encouraging and uplifting them both socially and economically when possible.

If you want to fight off christians you need only empower and educate your nations. I don't mean any offense; I just see so many worried people in India over christianity, and I wanted to give encouragement from a western perspective.

sanjaya
19 May 2010, 01:09 AM
Hi Seth. Thanks for the encouragement. I think you're definitely right about at least one thing: this business of mistreatment of low castes has to be stopped. Perhaps caste itself is a bit of an outdated concept that should be discarded altogether (granted the Gita states that God created the four castes, but fortunately Hindus aren't enslaved to Scriptures). Or perhaps caste has simply been perverted from its original intent. Nonetheless you're right in that Christians prey on the less fortunate by offering them false promises of a better lot either in this life or the next, and we shouldn't feed this. Not to mention that equal treatment of all people is funamentally right at a moral level.

As for the drop in Christian church attendance, I would like to interpret this overall drop as a dying of Christianity. However keep in mind that most of America has historically belonged to the mainline churches. These churches are dwindling as evangelical churches gain membership. Mostly this is because the mainline churches have become so secularized that they are irrelevant, whereas evangelicalism offers people escape from what they see as an evil world. Granted, I read somewhere that ~35% of Americans are evangelical, which would be betrayed by the behavior I see from Americans. I'm really not sure how to interpret all of this.

Sahasranama
19 May 2010, 02:27 AM
People in India are being cheated. Missionaries make promises and then abuse the Indian people. They do not offer a solution. It's criminal behavior. I couldn't care less about the decline of Christianity in the USA.


The aggressive hungry expansion of Christianity into economically poor countries are its death-throws.

That's not a justification to abuse Indians.

SethDrebitko
19 May 2010, 07:13 AM
I am not justifying it, or trying to make light of your situation; I am just trying to let you know that there is hope by giving an example. Aside from that Hinduism has great potential to spread outside of India, there are some truly amazing temples being built in the states serving healthy diverse communities, who could be tapped to support India.

I for one would readily support an organization with money that was designed to educate, and improve the condition of impoverished places in India to create buffer zones against the christians. What needs to happen is a global initiative to bring together not just specific denominations of the faith but its unified strength to combat these issues.

I think it should be important though that the organization remain as neutral as possible. I briefly skimmed over this article (http://savetemples.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=1) this morning and will read it fully later but it looks pretty good. This organization (http://www.preservehinduism.org/about.html) from what I know of them at this time seems like they might be worth looking into.

Again I am sorry if I cam across offensively dismissing your issues, I was only attempting to show my support for your cause. I want to see Hinduism not only survive but flourish throughout the globe, for all its beauty.

BryonMorrigan
19 May 2010, 08:09 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Christianity can only become powerful through coercion. Historically, the only ways that it has ever become the majority in a country was through fear, intimidation, propaganda, and totalitarianism.

With the rise of the Internet, this coercion has become much more difficult. This is another reason that they choose to promote their religion to poor people in areas where they are "cut off" from much of the information available. They will use any excuse, and any tactic to spread their intolerance. Just look at their recent behavior in Haiti.

I believe the two best ways to deal with them are:

1. Information - Many of the people being targeted by them are uneducated, poor, and have little understanding of the concepts at war here. When an apparently smart and wealthy Westerner tells someone that their traditional religion is "primitive," or "wrong," how are we to expect that person to respond if they are not presented with an alternative?

2. Reframing the Debate - Christians like to frame this debate as "Noble Missionaries Saving the World Through Charity." I know, I have argued with many of them, including those who go to India. We have to make the world see them for what they really are. They are the voices of Intolerance. They are the New Imperialists. "Charity" with conditions is no charity at all. And yes, much of this battle has to be fought in the USA. Many of the missionaries trying to destroy the cultures of India, Haiti, South America, Africa, etc., come from the USA. They recruit here. They fundraise here. No tolerance for the intolerant.

Sahasranama
19 May 2010, 08:19 AM
[Indian Accent]You know, problem is different.

You laugh at Indian. But Indian does not care about Christian.

Indian only care about Indian. :doh:[/Indian Accent]

SethDrebitko
19 May 2010, 10:05 AM
I would like to interpret this overall drop as a dying of Christianity. However keep in mind that most of America has historically belonged to the mainline churches. These churches are dwindling as evangelical churches gain membership. Mostly this is because the mainline churches have become so secularized that they are irrelevant, whereas evangelicalism offers people escape from what they see as an evil world. Granted, I read somewhere that ~35% of Americans are evangelical, which would be betrayed by the behavior I see from Americans. I'm really not sure how to interpret all of this.

Actually a study from the American Research Association showed that :
"95 percent of 20 to 29 year old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. However, only 55 percent of them attended church regularly during high school, and only 11 percent of them were still regularly attending church when in college."

The next generation of evangelic children are most commonly leaving the religion.


You laugh at Indian.

I don't laugh at Indians or their plight but at the irony. Because people in the west general are seeing a decline in christianity.

sanjaya
19 May 2010, 11:42 AM
Actually a study from the American Research Association showed that :
"95 percent of 20 to 29 year old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. However, only 55 percent of them attended church regularly during high school, and only 11 percent of them were still regularly attending church when in college."

The next generation of evangelic children are most commonly leaving the religion.

Very interesting. That's good to know, actually. It would seem that evangelicalism is becoming much like the mainline. In the past, rebellious children would reject the irrelevance of the mainline and become evangelicals. But as evangelicalism becomes the status quo, rebellious children will start to leave it as well.


I don't laugh at Indians or their plight but at the irony. Because people in the west general are seeing a decline in christianity.

While Sahasranama is of course entitled to his own belief, I will have to disagree with him on a couple of points. First, I don't think your comments come across as ridicule of Indians or the threat that Christianity poses us. Your friendly intent came across quite clearly in your first post.

Secondly, I'll have to say explicitly that I don't share the "Indian only care about Indian" view (though again, he's free to hold that view himself). Yes, I would like to see a halt to Christianity's encroachment in India. But this religion is bad for the West as well, and its death would be positive for Westerners too. Perhaps being an Indian American is what gives me concern for both cultures. Or it may just be that as a Indian American, I don't speak with the greatly endearing Indian accent that we've all come to know and love.

One thing puzzles me. The accent I understand, but why the broken English? English is an official language in India, so I've never known Indians to speak English with the fluency of a Russian. :dunno:

Sahasranama
19 May 2010, 11:51 AM
My second post was a joke, sorry for that.

sanjaya
19 May 2010, 04:57 PM
Not a problem. At least a portion of my last post was equally jocular.

Eastern Mind
19 May 2010, 05:51 PM
Many of the missionaries trying to destroy the cultures of India, Haiti, South America, Africa, etc., come from the USA. They recruit here. They fundraise here. No tolerance for the intolerant.


Vannakkam Bryon: Most of India's missionaries are now Indians themselves trained by Americans or the Catholic Church and funded by the west. This is the insiduous way of getting around the language barrier. They have learned deception and intolerance, but it is Indian. Even in the immigrant communities in the west, the Indian pastor is very very present. The thinking is, "He's one of us (culturally, racially, linguistically) so he (and his new religion) can't be that bad. Many Hindus are rightfully suspicious of whites, yet it is the own Indian brother down the street who is a bigger cause of the problem.

Here in Edmonton, I will relate a deceitful tactic. Our temple used to make posters announcing temple functions or festivals. Then I would distribute them to Indian stores. Most of the Indian business here is Ismaili Muslim from Africa (Idi Amin's economic refugees) and Punjabi. There is also a small Indian Hindu or Christian presence. I would always politely ask if I could put the poster up in the store. It was always "No problem, Sir." at all the shops but one. Then they'd let me put it up, or even help me. One Ismaili guy always gave the temple purchases a discount. Now that guy knew business.

That one would always say, "No problem. Just leave it with me. I will put it up for you later." This was an outright LIE. Of course the store in question was owned by a Kerala Christian. Interestingly, they lost business from my community, and as far as I know are no longer in business.

Aum Namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
19 May 2010, 07:05 PM
I rejoice that protestant christians have lost over 10% of their followers in the US alone since the 90's. The catholics are taking it harder; the only thing that kept their drop at 6% was the millions of Latino catholics flooding into the country. Over 16% decline in christianity in the US, churches are closing all the time! I hope you take this as good news, and encouragement that you have a fighting chance.

It's only good if they're leaving Christianity for Hinduism, Buddhism or another peaceful, tolerant religion. If they are becoming athiests (as many of them probably are) then that's a problem. While Christianity does have problems, it's still a hundred times better than atheism. Even being 'spiritual but not religious' is better than being atheist. I consider atheism to be a pernicious belief akin to stating that Leonardo Da Vinci did not paint the Mona Lisa. An atheist is stating that He who created all things does not exist and that this world is a product of chance. Srila Prabhupada wrote in his book Krishna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead that the word of an atheist cannot be trusted (since they do not believe in God, they cannot swear to God that something is true).


Actually a study from the American Research Association showed that :
"95 percent of 20 to 29 year old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. However, only 55 percent of them attended church regularly during high school, and only 11 percent of them were still regularly attending church when in college."

The reason for this in many cases is evolution. These kids are brought up to believe that God created the world in six days, and formed Adam and Eve on the sixth day and placed them in the Garden of Eden. When they get into middle school and high school, they are indoctrinated with the atheistic "religion" of evolution through their science classes (yes, evolution is a religion - you have to 'believe' in it because no-one was there to see it and there is no unequivocal evidence that it happened). These classes go above and beyond teaching the facts of evolution and tell students that life began in a primordial soup billions of years ago. There is no scientific proof for this and it's just as much a religious belief as the Genesis account of creation is. When students learn this, it makes them question their faith in the Bible, in Christianity and therefore in God. What they are not told is that this theory of evolution relies upon lies and information that has been proven wrong. For example: Evolution textbooks often contain Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings. These drawings supposedly show the embryos of various different creatures, including humans, at various stages, and they look very similar in the drawings. However, Haeckel faked the drawings and was thrown out of his university for this. But his drawings are still in textbooks because they don't have much other evidence (plus it supports abortion because they can say 'it's not a human yet, it's at the "fish stage"'). All the supposed "ancestors of man" have either been proven to be fully human, fully ape, or fake. The drawings of them that are seen in textbooks are based largely on the artist's imagination, since bones do not indicate how much hair the creature (or person) had.

There are many 'holes' in the theory of evolution - things that cast serious doubt on the truth of evolution. However, teachers who mention these 'holes' to students are fired or at the very least severly criticized, even though looking at both sides of a theory is a very scientific thing to do. This is because evolution is their sacrosanct religion and it is heresy for a scientist to question it.

So I think that Hindu parents should do the same thing as many strict Christian parents: inform the school that you do not want your child(ren) taught evolution. You have the right to have them exempted from classes which go against their religious beliefs.

Eastern Mind
19 May 2010, 07:58 PM
If they are becoming athiests (as many of them probably are) then that's a problem. While Christianity does have problems, it's still a hundred times better than atheism. Even being 'spiritual but not religious' is better than being atheist.

Vannakkam Scott:

My father was an atheist leaning towards agnosticism. He became an atheist because of the hypocrisy he witnessed in the Christian Church at a young age. He figures that these people didn't listen very well to the sermons, and that he could be a 'better man' without religion. In my judgment he was. His neighbours thought so too.

He lived a life of honesty, fidelity, had a great sense of humour, but had no love for Bible thumpers, and wasn't a seeker. As far as I know, he had no enemies, and was considered a better 'Christian' than many Christians by his friends.

The idea that atheism is a synonym for a thief and a crook and an immoral person is simply something that is perpetuated by Christians. They like to perpetuate the idiotic belief that if you don't have Christ in your heart, you're a bad person. It's simply not true. Better to judge man by his actions, not his beliefs.

Aum namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
20 May 2010, 05:22 AM
Vannakkam Scott:

My father was an atheist leaning towards agnosticism. He became an atheist because of the hypocrisy he witnessed in the Christian Church at a young age. He figures that these people didn't listen very well to the sermons, and that he could be a 'better man' without religion. In my judgment he was. His neighbours thought so too.

Did he believe in God? You don't need to be religious to believe in God. It's the people who say "God does not exist" that I think are pernicious.

Many people become atheist because that's often the only alternative to mainstream Christianity. They have no idea that there are other religions out there like Hinduism which teach belief in God but have none of the shortcomings of Christianity.


The idea that atheism is a synonym for a thief and a crook and an immoral person is simply something that is perpetuated by Christians. They like to perpetuate the idiotic belief that if you don't have Christ in your heart, you're a bad person. It's simply not true. Better to judge man by his actions, not his beliefs.

I've heard that a sizeable percentage of prisoners in the US are Christians. And many of them didn't convert in prison, they were Christians when they committed the crime that put them there. However, Prabhupada did write in his Krishna book when talking about King Kamsa (who was an atheist) that the word of an atheist cannot be trusted.

I think that if someone is leaning towards atheism, they should become Buddhist. Buddhism does not specifically teach belief in God and it's possible to be a Buddhist if you're an atheist. Reading and practicing the teachings of Lord Buddha will help one to be a better person and may help an atheist be more accepting of the idea of a higher power, even if it is only an abstract idea of Nirvana. Being Buddhist is way better than being atheist.

Eastern Mind
20 May 2010, 06:56 AM
Did he believe in God?

However, Prabhupada did write in his Krishna book when talking about King Kamsa (who was an atheist) that the word of an atheist cannot be trusted.

I think that if someone is leaning towards atheism, they should become Buddhist.

Vannakkam Scott: It is unfair for me to base an idea about atheism based on one person, but then neither should we generalise too much.

My father by definition did not believe in God, but he certainly was no adamant atheist preaching the ways of non-God.

As far as trusting someone's word, I'm not really sure if there is any correlation between belief and trusting one's word. I wouldn't trust anybody really, unless they proved to me by 4 or 5 actions that their word is good. I remember getting pledges for our temple. Probably 75% came through , and half of those only through hassling them. I've met many Christians who can lie through their teeth, while many others are very trustworthy.

Of course in the generations before the internet, no one had the opportunity much to search out religions, so here in Canada Hinduism or Buddhism would have just been of no significance, or thought of as other branches of Xianity. My father wouldn't have cared.

I take Prabhupadas's words with a grain of salt. I met some ISKCONites in suits one day saying they were a world famine charity. They didn't know that I knew who they were, and they denied anything I asked them about their associations, before I let them know I knew, and proceeded to scold them for the deception. I don't think the organisation does that any more, though.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
20 May 2010, 02:27 PM
Actually, at one time I also used to hold to the belief that all atheists are evil people. Then I realized that they aren't so much immoral as they are illogical. Many atheists I know (probably an equal proportion as theists) do have an objective sense of right and wrong. They just don't know how to logically justify it. Those of us who believe in God are able to point to him as our source of morality and ethics. Atheists have no idea where these ideas come from, or they invent ideas about how this comes about through evolution (while I wholeheartedly believe in evolution, I'm not so certain that morality evolves or that this would even be a compelling reason to practice morality). But as EM says, judge a person by his actions. I don't really care if an atheist is able to logically justify his moral behavior, as long as his behavior is moral.

Eastern Mind
20 May 2010, 03:34 PM
Vannakkam Sanjaya:

I sound so familycentric when I speak of my father, but he is the example I am most familiar with.

He knew that immoral or unethical or lazy behaviour would lead to being kicked out of the group and perhaps a lonely life. He told me a couple of examples of this.

In those days when someone died, the men of the community, whether it was -40 outside, or in the middle of harvest season, had to go co-operate and dig the grave. The cemetery soil was hard clay, and it was a hard 6 hours (in winter, less in summer) of joint labour for the 12 men of the small tight-knot community. If you didn't pull your weight you lost respect from the Christians and atheists alike. Perhaps in the back of everyone's mind was the thought, "Who is going to dig my grave?"

Before electricity, they had 'beef rings' where where every two weeks or so, each family would donate a cow. To gain honour, you gave your fattest steer. To lose honour, you gave some old worthless cow.

They did 'weird' things like argue about the price of hay in reverse, with the seller demanding the buyer pay less, and the buyer demanding he pay more.
I actually had to break up a pretty nasty argument with Dad and a neighbour over that one. It seemed the hay wasn't going to be sold aat all and the neighbour's cows may have starved had I not stepped in and called them two old fools.

The idea of ripping someone off was unthinkable because you may never get another business or barter again.

So it is contextual. They didn't have to 'rationalise' it because it already just made so much sense.

Aum namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
20 May 2010, 07:54 PM
I take Prabhupadas's words with a grain of salt. I met some ISKCONites in suits one day saying they were a world famine charity. They didn't know that I knew who they were, and they denied anything I asked them about their associations, before I let them know I knew, and proceeded to scold them for the deception. I don't think the organisation does that any more, though.ISKCON believe that the ends justify the means for deception. The way they see it is that everything belongs to Krishna, and should be used for His service. They therefore think it's okay to lie to people to get their money, which they were probably going to use for some sinful purpose such as buying meat.

I also have a problem with their book distribution methods. They tell you that the book is a "free book" or "we're giving away books" and then they turn around and ask you for a donation for the printing cost. If you only give them a few dollars, they say "most people give us $10" or an amount they feel is appropriate. I remember at university at the start of the year some ISKCON devotees had a stall where they had prasadam and books. They wanted a donation for their copy of Bhagavad Gita. Not far away from them was a Christian club, who gave me a Bible for free. I have more respect for Christians who do distribute their materials for free than these ISKCON devotees who lead people on by making them think the book is free but then refusing to part with it without a donation that they feel is "appropriate". The Christians distribute their literature because they want to convert people to Christianity and get them "saved". While ISKCON devotees do have a similar motive, they also use the books as a way of making money for the organisation.

The ISKCON people also invited me to a "Gita Workshop" at their centre, but what they didn't tell me was that it cost $10 to attend the Gita workshop, with additional costs for food afterwards. I told the guy that I didn't have regular income at that time and he grudgingly agreed that I didn't have to pay. I think it's outrageous charging admission to a religious program.

So I think that the Christians are more genuine in their motives for distributing literature. They genuinely care about people's spiritual well-being and believe that you have to believe in Jesus if you want to go to heaven. That is their only motive, unlike the ISKCONites who are essentially killing two birds with one stone by spreading their message and charging for it. However, you shouldn't judge Prabhupada by the actions of ISKCON. While the guy had some weird ideas about women, he was a pure devotee of Lord Krishna. His disciples had not reached the same level he was at and were playing politics with each other, many wanting to be Prabhupada himself. So just because some of his disciples are corrupt does not mean Prabhupada was not a pure devotee of Krishna.

Ramakrishna
20 May 2010, 11:31 PM
Very interesting. That's good to know, actually. It would seem that evangelicalism is becoming much like the mainline. In the past, rebellious children would reject the irrelevance of the mainline and become evangelicals. But as evangelicalism becomes the status quo, rebellious children will start to leave it as well.


Yeah, I was also thinking at first that evangelicalism is becoming the mainline, and I also heard that about 1/3 Americans call themselves evangelical. That's why I was surprised at first when I read that Christianity is on the decline. But then again, I live in the so-called "Bible Belt". There have been numerous people evangelizing me at school and trying to convert me. We usually debate after school or during the Theology club. I have been steadfast in my beliefs and now they have finally gotten the point that I will not convert to Christianity. I suppose if Christianity is on the decline, then where I live will be one of the last places to feel that decline!

Ramakrishna
20 May 2010, 11:40 PM
Namaste Scott,

I have one atheist friend and one agnostic friend, and now that I think about it, both of them have a high standard of morals and are nice people that live good lives. None of them are "militant atheists" that go around preaching that God does not exist or about the "evils" of religion. One of them just doesn't believe that God exists and the other simply doesn't know.

I do agree that Buddhism would be a better path for them and it has atheistic aspects. I have talked to both of them about Hinduism and Buddhism. My atheist friend takes more of the lazy path, as he really offers no explanations why he doesn't think God exists and he doesn't really seem to care. Still, I know many people who call themselves Christians, and they lie, cheat, and steal. Neither of my two friends do those things. That is why I respect them, despite their non-belief in God.

BryonMorrigan
21 May 2010, 07:50 AM
Yeah, I was also thinking at first that evangelicalism is becoming the mainline, and I also heard that about 1/3 Americans call themselves evangelical. That's why I was surprised at first when I read that Christianity is on the decline. But then again, I live in the so-called "Bible Belt". There have been numerous people evangelizing me at school and trying to convert me. We usually debate after school or during the Theology club. I have been steadfast in my beliefs and now they have finally gotten the point that I will not convert to Christianity. I suppose if Christianity is on the decline, then where I live will be one of the last places to feel that decline!

I predict what we're seeing with Evangelical Christianity is very similar to the decline of organized racism in the USA.

- First, (in the 19th century) most people were just racists. It's how they were brought up.
- Then there was a first major shift of people against racism, culminating in the American Civil War.
- After the Civil War, people became more polarized, and the Ku Klux Klan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kkk) was born.
- In the 1960s, the gov't stepped in, and enforced equal rights, and essentially destroyed the power of the KKK. (But just like the racists in the 1960s, the Exclusivists are getting more angry and violent...)
- In 2008, we elected a black President.

Now, to compare that to the situation with Exclusivist Christianity:

- First, (in the 19th century) most people were just Christians. It's how they were brought up.
- Then there was a first major shift of people against Exclusivism, as many Americans learned about other religions in the late 19th and early 20th century.
- During the Cold War, people became more polarized, and Christian Dominionism was born (with The Family being the Dominionist version of the KKK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_%28Christian_organization%29)).
- In the latter half of the 20th century, the gov't stepped in, and enforced equal rights, and is essentially destroying the power of the Christian Dominionists. (Through secular legislation and the enforcement of the Separation Between Church and State.)
- Next stop?

My theory is that Christianity will not disappear entirely, but rather be forced to throw aside its preposterous Exclusivist ideology. Exclusivism is incompatible with an intellectual society in the 21st century. It's as bad as racism, and many Christians are grudgingly having to realize that. For example, read some of the interesting poll numbers in this article from Newsweek: ("We Are All Hindus Now" (http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155))

TatTvamAsi
21 May 2010, 12:28 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Christianity can only become powerful through coercion. Historically, the only ways that it has ever become the majority in a country was through fear, intimidation, propaganda, and totalitarianism.

With the rise of the Internet, this coercion has become much more difficult. This is another reason that they choose to promote their religion to poor people in areas where they are "cut off" from much of the information available. They will use any excuse, and any tactic to spread their intolerance. Just look at their recent behavior in Haiti.

I believe the two best ways to deal with them are:

1. Information - Many of the people being targeted by them are uneducated, poor, and have little understanding of the concepts at war here. When an apparently smart and wealthy Westerner tells someone that their traditional religion is "primitive," or "wrong," how are we to expect that person to respond if they are not presented with an alternative?

2. Reframing the Debate - Christians like to frame this debate as "Noble Missionaries Saving the World Through Charity." I know, I have argued with many of them, including those who go to India. We have to make the world see them for what they really are. They are the voices of Intolerance. They are the New Imperialists. "Charity" with conditions is no charity at all. And yes, much of this battle has to be fought in the USA. Many of the missionaries trying to destroy the cultures of India, Haiti, South America, Africa, etc., come from the USA. They recruit here. They fundraise here. No tolerance for the intolerant.

Well said!

TatTvamAsi
21 May 2010, 12:38 PM
It's only good if they're leaving Christianity for Hinduism, Buddhism or another peaceful, tolerant religion. If they are becoming athiests (as many of them probably are) then that's a problem. While Christianity does have problems, it's still a hundred times better than atheism.



Atheism is the first stepping stone AWAY from christianity/islam/judaism.

It forces people, who otherwise were brought up in an entirely dependent mindset, to think independently.

Most atheists in the west are so because of a severe reaction against the abrahamic religions and their fear-mongering tactics. Atheists are at least freed from the bondage of these demonic ideologies and are thus free to inquire; about nature, the world, themselves etc. Some take the easy route and don't research other philosophies but at the least, they are freed from the wretched abrahamic faiths. That, is truly, a MILLION times better than christianity/islam/judaism.

Those who do research eventually study the Dharmic faiths and some choose Buddhism while others decide to study Hinduism.

There is not a single reason to stay as an abrahamic as it is cause for great misery not only to one self, but of others as well. This is especially true of islam and christianity as they are proselytizing religions.

Why, Advaita Vedanta is essentially "atheistic" in the sense that the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, is an immanent yet transcendent field of consciousness that is impersonal and ONE WITHOUT A SECOND! The existence of other beings is acknowledged but at the same time, "belief", which implies faith (or lack of experiential evidence) in other deities etc. is secondary to self-inquiry; the path to liberation (according to Advaita).

sambya
21 May 2010, 11:20 PM
If they are becoming athiests (as many of them probably are) then that's a problem. While Christianity does have problems, it's still a hundred times better than atheism. Even being 'spiritual but not religious' is better than being atheist. I consider atheism to be a pernicious belief akin to stating that Leonardo Da Vinci did not paint the Mona Lisa. An atheist is stating that He who created all things does not exist and that this world is a product of chance.

well , i would differ with you in this matter . atheists needn't always be immoral and a lower human . there are a few category in which people of this world can be classified .
the seekers or sadhaks ,
the religious ,
the agnostics and
the atheists .

out of them agressive atheists and orthodox religious people are the greatest threats to mankind . both have lost their power of independent thinking !

i have met with many atheists and agnostics who are way better than many religious man . their sense of morality and ethics are often higher than other humans around them .

for example take the example of an orthodox muslim . he has unmoving faith in existence of god . so he is a nice theist . but he also likes to break a temple or two and covert or kill a kafir . that makes him immoral and dangerous .



Srila Prabhupada wrote in his book Krishna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead that the word of an atheist cannot be trusted (since they do not believe in God, they cannot swear to God that something is true).


by srila prabupada's understanding , mayavadis , smartas and karma yogis are all atheists !! believing in god , according to prabhupada is believing in krishna alone .

ScottMalaysia
22 May 2010, 03:38 AM
Atheism is the first stepping stone AWAY from christianity/islam/judaism.

It forces people, who otherwise were brought up in an entirely dependent mindset, to think independently.

Most atheists in the west are so because of a severe reaction against the abrahamic religions and their fear-mongering tactics. Atheists are at least freed from the bondage of these demonic ideologies and are thus free to inquire; about nature, the world, themselves etc. Some take the easy route and don't research other philosophies but at the least, they are freed from the wretched abrahamic faiths. That, is truly, a MILLION times better than christianity/islam/judaism.

I am NOT a Christian. Yes, I was baptized a Catholic, but I have left the Catholic Church through apostasy (no longer believing in the Catholic faith). I do not agree with Christianity being the only way, and I certainly don't believe that all who reject Jesus or Christianity will go to hell. I do understand that Hinduism has a hell (Naraka) but Hindus do not believe that all non-Hindus go to Naraka.

You say that atheism is the first step away from Christianity. That is often because in the West, especially America, that is all that people really know. You can either accept the Christian idea of God, or you don't believe in God at all. But would you rather that these people who see the problems with Christianity and decide to leave totally abandon a belief in God, or would you rather they become "spiritual but not religious", maintaining belief in a God but not in the Christian religion? I think Christians becoming atheist because of the hypocrisy in the Church are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the various Christian denominations have problems, but that doesn't mean that you have to stop believing in God to get out. Some people have turned to neopagan religions such as Wicca, which see themselves as following the religion that their ancestors did before Christianity came.

But I do get what you're saying about atheism being the first step (for many) away from Christianity. However, I see Christianity as being better because they teach belief in God and they teach their followers to serve God. Whether you serve God by going to church, or offering puja, or praying 5 times a day facing Mecca, or going to the synagogue, you're still serving God. Atheists aren't doing that. I would far rather see my children become Christians than atheists (although I would prefer it greatly if they remained Hindus).

TatTvamAsi
22 May 2010, 12:58 PM
Many Christians are good, decent people who are simply trying to serve God and live a good, moral life in this increasingly immoral world. Many Christians are tolerant of other paths and don't go shoving their religion down others' throats. You have to remember that there are many, many Christian denominations. Some are tolerant, some aren't. You can't just lump them all together and blame the tolerant ones for the actions of the intolerant ones. In 1986, Pope John Paul II invited Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists to come to Asissi to pray for world peace. Hardly the action of an intolerant bigot.

christianity AND islam would be tolerable if they got rid of their proselytizing nature. However, we know that is not going to happen. And thus, there are ALWAYS going to be conflicts, arguments, wars etc. in the name of those two religions because religion, to those who are religious, gives self definition; the ego is tied to the labels due to conditioning.

Many people are "good, decent, and serve" society well without being religious. In fact, I would say that the christians/muslims who are "good/decent" are so DESPITE their religions. Remember, all those verses about stoning women, murdering entire groups of people are sanctioned in the bible and quran. Cherry-picking what you like and discarding what you don't is not really following the religion's diktats. In that way, the Taliban have followed their book to the nth degree. Thus, you can see how abrahamic religions are actually destructive to the individual as well as society at large.

christians/muslims want only one thing: convert the entire world to their faith hook or by crook, and in the case of the latter, by violence.

Having said that, if a christian gains meaning in life because of the messages in the bible, that's good for him. WE HINDUS don't care about that! We don't want them to impose their nonsense on us. If they do, there will be conflict. And the pseudo-secularists in India and the foreigners are quick to label any reaction from Hindus as EXTREMISM or HINDUTVA.


I wouldn't say that Christianity is a religion for idiots, it's a religion for those who aren't spiritually developed enough to accept the higher truth of Hinduism.

Thank you for saying what I have been for more than 8 years! However, when I said it, I was a casteist "bigot" right? :)

The reason I called christianity a comfort religion for idiots is it, along with all abrahamic religions, puts the emphasis on YOU, the individual. Dharmic faiths, especially Hinduism, is the antipode of that. In christianity, God LOVES YOU!
This is actually comical IMO because the insignificance of humanity comes to the forefront when you read non-religious texts about astronomy or the universe. We are on a small speck among trillions of stars and we think we are the most important creation in the universe! :rolleyes: People who have suffered greatly, suffered abuse in their childhood, need affection, kindness and love. When they are told that they are important and loved, it strikes at their core so they adopt christianity and become quite vociferous in promoting it. Of course, this is not for 100% of the people who are evangelical, but a lot of it, especially the younger generation, is that way.

Bottom line is, when an ideology puts YOU (the individual) at the forefront, it is puerile and thus idiotic. That was the gist of my statement.




I am NOT a Christian. Yes, I was baptized a Catholic, but I have left the Catholic Church through apostasy (no longer believing in the Catholic faith). I do not agree with Christianity being the only way, and I certainly don't believe that all who reject Jesus or Christianity will go to hell. I do understand that Hinduism has a hell (Naraka) but Hindus do not believe that all non-Hindus go to Naraka.

Well, let me be the first to congratulate you for leaving christianity. The reason I stated what I did was that your posts usually have something to do with incorporating christianity or christian ideals into Hinduism among watering down Hindu traditions etc. You even made posts denigrating Sathya Sai Baba. Even though you don't need to accept him as a guru, to denigrate an ascetic like him is considered very bad in Hinduism. That is why most Hindus don't denigrate even jesus, whom I believe was a charlatan. Thus, I felt that you are having a tough time getting rid of your "previous life" so to speak with christianity. I believe Saidevo mentioned this as well. And look, it's not your fault necessarily. Vasanas are very difficult to overcome and requires enormous self discipline.

Regarding heaven/hell, yes we Hindus don't believe anyone will go "to hell". They are all temporary first and foremost and it is a continuous cycle of birth and death, higher and lower, that arises from one's own actions, thoughts, and deeds. So the question is, how can you respect christianity and still claim to be Hindu? christianity states that without belief in christ as your 'savior', you are doomed to an eternal tortuous hell. I am really curious as to how you reconcile those beliefs with you new-found Hindu identity?


You say that atheism is the first step away from Christianity. That is often because in the West, especially America, that is all that people really know. You can either accept the Christian idea of God, or you don't believe in God at all. But would you rather that these people who see the problems with Christianity and decide to leave totally abandon a belief in God, or would you rather they become "spiritual but not religious", maintaining belief in a God but not in the Christian religion? I think Christians becoming atheist because of the hypocrisy in the Church are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the various Christian denominations have problems, but that doesn't mean that you have to stop believing in God to get out. Some people have turned to neopagan religions such as Wicca, which see themselves as following the religion that their ancestors did before Christianity came.

Honestly, as I have said before, "I" don't care what others believe in or what they do nor do "I" have any control over that/them and nor do "I" want to. According to our SaStrAs, people, once they have reached a certain stage of spiritual development (as you stated above), will be born Hindus. Thus, this is their progress and let them go through their karmas.

My message with christians/muslims/communists is: LEAVE US ALONE.

Quite simple eh? ;)


But I do get what you're saying about atheism being the first step (for many) away from Christianity. However, I see Christianity as being better because they teach belief in God and they teach their followers to serve God. Whether you serve God by going to church, or offering puja, or praying 5 times a day facing Mecca, or going to the synagogue, you're still serving God. Atheists aren't doing that. I would far rather see my children become Christians than atheists (although I would prefer it greatly if they remained Hindus).

Good point there. I too think that no matter how bad religions like christianity/islam/judaism are, the ego can be kept in check by putting importance in a being/prophet other than you (the individual). Ironically though, these three religions are so utilitarian. I always tell my christian friends, "PRAY to God because he is GOD, not because he is saving your sorry a$$!" :D

Eastern Mind
22 May 2010, 01:34 PM
are you suggesting that people who wants to use their free thinking have no place in this forum ? is this to be taken as an advice for people who have a difference in opinion to leave ?!!! i might be wrong ..........

its about whether the minimum levels of courtesy is being maintained .

it is a 'spiritual forum' , not a 'religious forum' . in hinduism 'sprituality' is about being dharmic , striving towards self or god realization . and not causing hurt to others remains one of the fundamental tenants of hindu spiritual practice . without this there can be no realization .

i do agree with many points that TTA puts forward in his post , but i cannot agree with his unusual unnecessary show of temper and rudeness . this is clealr not 'spiritual' .

this behaviour can be allowed , if the name of this forum is changed to ' hindu religious minded peoples forum' or 'practising hindu forum' .

maintaining a forum and moderating is is a tough job and credit must be given to satayji over it .

I'm not suggesting that people take a 'hike' if that is what you are getting at. There are many differences of opinion here, and if you take a look at the membership list, it shows that most join and never bother making a single post. And many do leave or Satay bans them. But many places, because they do not have a Satay, are far worse than this. Yes, TTA can be harsh. But if people are that sensitive, then maybe there needs to be a double think on their part. Hinduism is not this lovey dovey religion. Its hard work, and it has rules and morals.

But there are other 'offenses' as well, one of them being, "I'm smarter than you." when its really just different POV. Or denying another's experience. If I say, "I saw such and such in my meditations" , I wouldn't expect anyone to come along and say :No you didn't!" Its a vast religion, yes. To me that is far more offensive than any individual words. Its like telling a crying child he has no reason to be crying., or "it doesn't hurt."

Like I've said before, I've met several Hindus, and other members of faiths that I won't mention that are far harsher than TTA. I don't believe that in person, TTA would come a yelling at me telling me in a public temple of the west and yelling at me that I'm a Christian because I'm white. Personally, I read between the lines, and look for intention.

I tried to explain once on here how I personally don't consider the Bhagavat Gita as a Saiva scripture, certainly not a primary one. Boy, did I get shot down for that one. Probably will again, just now. lol And so the world turns.

Aum Namasivaya

TatTvamAsi
22 May 2010, 01:43 PM
Thank you for sharing your opinion TTA, I respect your willingness to share your views. I would like to clear up that I am most assuredly not a Christian; my fiancée is though and is very respectful and open to my religious choices.


If you are considering it from an economic stand point, which I don't agree with, I would be considered a home owning middle class person not sure what that translates to. From a spiritual stand point, which is how I like to think of it, I would agree that I would be pretty far down the rung as would many.


Not really personally. I have read articles on the topic of lower caste treatment though. The most striking that I can remember, are the individuals who work to clear sewers with no protective equipment and often die as a result. By helping to raise health, and safety standards for people like this it would help improve their feelings with the overall system and not look so much for outside relief.


I never made any of these claims, the reason I only reference India is because the entire focus of the topic was to help slow/stop the advance of christianity, not westerners, and this is an area that could use help.



This I referenced above.


Actually as I have already mentioned christianity is declining in the west. That part of the process is over here. My concern with the west is being able to ease peoples transition into the religion, and avoid the info overload that occurs. Because christianity is still a problem in India, and less in the west, that is why I was addressing India.

Seth,

It is good to see a reasoned response to my somewhat explosive post (obviously since there have been 10 replies about it LOL).

You're post, although well-intentioned, came across as severely antagonistic towards Hindu society. The first thing is, these so-called 'articles' you read about caste etc. in Hindu society are almost always written by foreigners and/or dalits. It's like getting osama bin laden's opinion on america.

Yes, many people, economically poor, are converting to christianity as you've stated and that is obvious. What is not obvious is that the propaganda that goes behind these conversions. These christian missionaries make it look like these people are abused and stomped on and need "jesus' love" to save them! The funny thing is, most of these people convert for money or occupations that are promised elsewhere.

The truth on the ground is quite different. The discrimination and antagonism is actually reversed.

Quick example. My nuclear family is in the US. My father's siblings are all over the world. Why? It is because Indian society actually discriminates AGAINST the so-called 'high' castes, especially Brahmins. We have had to leave our ancestral homeland in search of jobs, education, life because we were denied that in our own place. So, when someone, a foreigner like yourself, says 'Brahmins and other high castes kept low castes down', not only is it patently false, it is absurd and highly obtuse. And, with the conversion of these low-caste people to violent ideologies like christianity/islam, there is added threat to Hindus in India.

And so, it is important for Hindus to curb the conversion in India. Foreigners adopting atheism and/or other religions is not so important to us Hindus because it doesn't have any bearing for Indians in India who are now having to pay a fee to visit their holy sites!

The least you can do, apart from NOT donating to churches that proselytize, is stop reading these biased articles written by vested interests who want to see Hinduism and Hindus destroyed.

SethDrebitko
22 May 2010, 01:48 PM
Foreigners adopting atheism and/or other religions is not so important to us Hindus because it doesn't have any bearing for Indians in India who are now having to pay a fee to visit their holy sites!
While it may not effect the laws in India about visiting the holy sites, a drop in western christianity can help to put a strangle hold on the funding that does go to India limiting its reach.

satay
22 May 2010, 02:27 PM
Admin Note

Namaskar,

I had to delete a large number of posts that were irrelevant to the topic.

I request you to please focus on the topic at hand and follow the forum rules. Personal attacks on other members are against the forum rules. If you see a post that is against the forum rules, please use the 'report post' button and do not take matters in your hands.

Do not attack back the offending poster. Simply report them to me so that I can take action. If you engage in tit for tat type discussion, it wastes everyone's time as the posts will be deleted anyway. As a rule, I try to salvage anything good from the reported post. If there is nothing to salvage, it gets deleted. All replies and further discussion orginated from the offending post also get deleted. Thus I once again request all members to not reply to offending posts. Simply report them for me to take action on.

This thread has been cleaned, yet, I am not fully done with the moderation process and the parties involved. So please be patient.

Thank you for your cooperation.

sanjaya
23 May 2010, 01:27 AM
out of them agressive atheists and orthodox religious people are the greatest threats to mankind . both have lost their power of independent thinking !

I think there's some wisdom to be had here. The threat doesn't come from religion or atheism. It comes from untempered passion. Emotional people will act without concern for what is morally right or wrong. Indeed, I think that someone like Richard Dawkins can be as dangerous as an evangelical Christian. His writings inflame American atheists. I've seen Dawkins worshipers make claims that religious people in America ought to be denied basic civil rights unless they renounce their beliefs. Likewise, an evangelical Christian is without doubt worse than a reasonable atheist. The average atheist might not believe in God, but he won't impose this belief on Hindus the way an evangelical will.

Freedom of thought is the key here. In America, "freethinker" has come to be associated with atheism. I'm no sure why, for a person might use his faculty of reason to chose to believe in God rather than abandon such belief. The average Richard Dawkins atheist is as dead set in his ways as the average evangelical. How is that free thought? We really need to work to avoid fundamentalism and zealotry of all varieties. Religious zealots (including atheists) are quite happy to be left in small rooms killing one another, regardless of what harm they leave in their wake. It's up to the rest of us to stop these people from destroying the world in order to defend their beliefs.

sambya
23 May 2010, 04:12 AM
true sanjaya , its the untempered passion thats the main culprit . agreed .

Kumar_Das
23 May 2010, 12:16 PM
It's only good if they're leaving Christianity for Hinduism, Buddhism or another peaceful, tolerant religion. If they are becoming athiests (as many of them probably are) then that's a problem. While Christianity does have problems, it's still a hundred times better than atheism. Even being 'spiritual but not religious' is better than being atheist. I consider atheism to be a pernicious belief akin to stating that Leonardo Da Vinci did not paint the Mona Lisa. An atheist is stating that He who created all things does not exist and that this world is a product of chance. Srila Prabhupada wrote in his book Krishna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead that the word of an atheist cannot be trusted (since they do not believe in God, they cannot swear to God that something is true).



The reason for this in many cases is evolution. These kids are brought up to believe that God created the world in six days, and formed Adam and Eve on the sixth day and placed them in the Garden of Eden. When they get into middle school and high school, they are indoctrinated with the atheistic "religion" of evolution through their science classes (yes, evolution is a religion - you have to 'believe' in it because no-one was there to see it and there is no unequivocal evidence that it happened). These classes go above and beyond teaching the facts of evolution and tell students that life began in a primordial soup billions of years ago. There is no scientific proof for this and it's just as much a religious belief as the Genesis account of creation is. When students learn this, it makes them question their faith in the Bible, in Christianity and therefore in God. What they are not told is that this theory of evolution relies upon lies and information that has been proven wrong. For example: Evolution textbooks often contain Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings. These drawings supposedly show the embryos of various different creatures, including humans, at various stages, and they look very similar in the drawings. However, Haeckel faked the drawings and was thrown out of his university for this. But his drawings are still in textbooks because they don't have much other evidence (plus it supports abortion because they can say 'it's not a human yet, it's at the "fish stage"'). All the supposed "ancestors of man" have either been proven to be fully human, fully ape, or fake. The drawings of them that are seen in textbooks are based largely on the artist's imagination, since bones do not indicate how much hair the creature (or person) had.

There are many 'holes' in the theory of evolution - things that cast serious doubt on the truth of evolution. However, teachers who mention these 'holes' to students are fired or at the very least severly criticized, even though looking at both sides of a theory is a very scientific thing to do. This is because evolution is their sacrosanct religion and it is heresy for a scientist to question it.

So I think that Hindu parents should do the same thing as many strict Christian parents: inform the school that you do not want your child(ren) taught evolution. You have the right to have them exempted from classes which go against their religious beliefs.

I believe in evolution.

Evolution is so obvious, its not even a matter of debate.

The proof is in the pudding. Genetics clearly support evolution.

Hinduism is by far the most scientific religion.

Evolution does not contradict the existence of a Creator.