subcultures?

[mcshantihank]

Namaste!
How to cope with subcultures and artist like Marilyn Manson? What would be the vedic advice?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam mcshantihank: Welcome to HDF!

I think one would compare the morals, values, etc between the two, and then conclude that these darker subcultures have no place in Vedic dharma. This is my personal opinion.

Which way does it make the chakras spin?

Aum Namasivaya

[mcshantihank]

Vannakkam mcshantihank: Welcome to HDF!

I think one would compare the morals, values, etc between the two, and then conclude that these darker subcultures have no place in Vedic dharma. This is my personal opinion.

Which way does it make the chakras spin?

Aum Namasivaya
But if you listen to MM can't you just learn something about life?
why is darker subcultures not good?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakam:

It's not that it's not good, as we don't believe in evil at all. If its a place where you get your individual lessons, then all is fine. In a mystical sense, the chakras would be going down into lower realms, as that is what most of the rock lyrics and sounds take you. Music can bring you up or bring you down. We want our auras to lighten up, to be shining actinically, not in worlds of dark colors. This then uplifts our fellow beings.

Aum Namasivaya

[MahaHrada]

You have received a very strange and confused reply not at all based on vedic dharma or any other darshana (philosophy).

Hindus can listen to any music they like without any danger to produce wrong aura colors or have chakras spinning the wrong direction or any such rabid nonsense.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakam mcshantihank:

Just to convince myself, I did take a look at a few of the lyrics here:

http://www.azlyrics.com/m/marilyn.html

It didn't seem much in alignment with Sanatana Dharma, but to each his own I suppose.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

The lyrics are highly disturbing. It may not seem like a big deal. Remember though that when you listen to words through music, it becomes a form of hypnosis. As a sadhaka you want to keep your mind pure, so that it can operate on a higher level. Music in general fires up passion, anger and lust and therefore is rajasik. "Emo music, trashy pop and bad rap music are tamo guna, because it debilitates reason very quickly. The best music is in sattva guna and above: bhajans, mantras, stotras, katha, kirtana, path etc. If you are serious about sadhana, listen to sattva music.

[MahaHrada]

If a sadhak is already disturbed or troubled just by listening to popular music it is not the music that should be blamend but the weakness of the sadhak and his utter lack of proper sadhana.

What a degenerated time we live in, sadhakas once called "viras" (heroes) have become afraid of music, just like the mullahs. Next we start praying to the Qaba?

[Sahasranama]

I am not saying that someone who is an advanced sadhaka will be bothered by mere listening to music. I am classifying music according to the gunas. This is not similar to what the mullas are saying, I am not forbidding music. I read the lyrics of the song and my understanding is that this type of music is tamo guna. Someone interested in spirituality is better of not listening to such music. The energetic effect it has on our conscious and subconscious mind is very real.

I am sure you disagree and are holding a neo tantrik view that whatever you want to do is allright. I am not going to say that people shouldn't listen to all sorts of music. It's their own decision. I am just giving my piece of advice. Some discrimination is necessary for people who have not reached perfection. Of course, a great soul like yourself would not be disturbed, even if kamadeva came along with all of Indra's apsaras and gandharvas.

[MahaHrada]

If a sadhaka is disturbed by music there is something terribly wrong with his sadhana or his entire path or his religion and he should look for alternatives.

People are living in "lower planes of energy" because they like a certain kind of music? Says who? Ayatollah Khameni?

[Sahasranama]

What is music? People ramble, put a tune on it and call it music. You can read the lyrics of that particular song yourself. I wouldn't want to subsitute the lyrics of my morning arati with the lyrics of a marilyn manson song.

I am sorry if this is a sensitive topic for you. I am not judging you. When vegetarians refuse to eat meat for spiritual purposes or refuse to drink alcohol, some people get offended. In the same way, classifying music according to the gunas might offend people who enjoy marilyn manson or other tamasik artists.

[rainycity]

I agree that this type of music can be described as rajasic and tamasic; passionate and dark. Marilyn Manson obviously likes to utilise dark imagery, language and concepts but he's not a depraved degenerate like some christians make him out to be, just a controversial artist.

[sambya]

music is a personal matter and depends solely on the tastes and liking of the concerned individual . music does not affect spiritual progress .

but hard rock and similar heavy stuff can bring about mental agitation . and as we all know spiritual advancement is directly proportional to calming down of mind . this way it might affect spiritual progress , to a limited extent .

but most importantly , when a person has developed a natural love for god and is actually seeking him , he wouldnt want to listen to any such things at all . it simply cant attract him anymore . not just that , anything not in relation with god ( be it music , relatives or friends) would repel him back .

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

We are not talking about an accomplished but only about an aspiring sAdhaka here, and whether the music of debauchery and depravity such as that quoted in the OP would suit the spiritual aspirations of a sAdhaka.

The answer, IMHO is, that IT WILL NOT. Such music is bound to lower and annul the efforts of a sAdhaka: even the great sage vishvAmitra lost the power of his tapas when he was enchanted by women from the deva world, so what are we?

If music is a way of rhythmic expression of words, then the thoughts behind the words are bound to affect the physical and astral make up of a person, as heard words would certainly trace back to the thoughts that generated them. If the effect of such raunchy music is by way of increase in blood pressure, sexual stimulus, and passion due to increase in adrenalin, such effects would first originate in the mental and astral bodies and then only course down to the physical. The effects in these subtle bodies would certainly be reflected in the spin of the chakras as EM has rightly observed.

A sAdhaka, unless he first takes up yama and niyama, cannot continue his dhyAna with success, however skilful he/she is with just the Asanas. And the yama and niyama does not include such music. Listening to such music and doing the sAdhana of meditation would be, IMO, like meditating sitting in a gutter hole. There is no mention in the itihAsas or purANas about sAdhakas who accomplished their siddhis by such gutter-meditation. Even the asurAs when they chose to do tapas, had to follow the yama and niyamas and other rigours of the yoga-sAdhana.

*****

One of the first references to the chakras occurs in the jAbAla darshana upaniShad. After talking about yama and niyama, this upaniShad refers to the control of mUlAdhAra chakra for successful pratyAhara--Retraction of organs of sensory perception, and fixing the mind on the search for Atman.

• The wise man should sit in the posture of Swastika, inspire long be filled up from head to toe end, and keep the air breathed in with both feet in muladhara chakra (2) in the stomach, right in the heart at the base of the neck in the jaws in the middle of the upper eyelids, forehead and the top of the skull. --jAbAla darshan up.5.2

• About dhAraNa--concentration and undivided attention, the upaniShad recommends the pancha-bhUtas--five elements, that are present in the outside world and inside our body.

• In the dhyAna stage, it says, "On Maheshvara, we must meditate, thinking 'I am He.'"

*****

Let us as Hindus not delude ourselves that the craps of western entertainment would ever help us progress in our sAdhana. If we want music to be our means of sAdhana, let it be by way of bhajans, chanting of mantras and classical Hindu music.

[MahaHrada]

If a culture religion or spiritual path is so weak and its influence on the mind and lifestyle so minimal that it cannot tolerate different tastes in art and music, and even denies the freedom of choice in questions of worldly entertainment the whole religion is a curse to mankind and redundant.

But it is not only listening to a song of Marilyn Manson that apparently already can devastete the chakras of the modern hindu sadhaka, there was another thread where someone said that Anuradha Paudwahl destroys Hindu Tradition by singing the Gayatri in the wrong way while another said that the same singer was a gift to mankind. Why not all convert to Islam than you can forbid all music and all fun then there is no need to fight whether the bhajan singer you are devoted to is a destroyer of Hindu Dharma or not.

There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious. Islam does not allow swimming in the sea and is opposed to radio and television serials.
ayathollah khomeni

Where is the difference ? Except that the revolutionary guards are armend and enforce such rubbish? A hindu who wants to morally restrict the choice of taste in music and arts should be ashamend.

I personally do not listen often to any music, it only distracts me. But i would not prefer a dishonest filmi bhajan who was sung entirely to make money and become famous to a subculture song that is a honest expressions of the artists life thought and emotions.

Many people are worshipping fake criminal swamis who pretend to be spiritual but are only into sex and money, of course nobody worries about the influence this had on his chakras and gunas, even after exposal of the crime. No doubt former devotees of these criminals will go on sermonising and pontificating about higher knowledge and morals, ignoring their former utter inability for discernment of such simple matters, as the difference between an obvious liar and dishonest crook and a saintly person.

But it is not the package but the content that is important.

If i have to choose i´d rather have a past where i have been listening to a subculture entertainer expressing his experiences thoughts and emotions in a honest way than a past of admiring the lies and platitudes of a fake swami nitty or a criminal cracki bhagavan with his amma and others such as these who are advertising at every street corner misusing the name of Hindu Dharma pretending to be sattwic.

Please learn to discern between a saint and crook, a liar and an honest person before judging gunas of others.

Sermonizing about taste in music and arts while probably worshipping the feet of a "saint" who was just caught wanking little children, if that is what you think makes your chakras spin the right way, i wish you good luck, you will need it.

[amra]

I agree with the Khomeni quote - all those things are distractions - once you find something serious in your life then you let others do as they wish.

But i would not encourage people to listen to this music as it does not provide any nourishment but is anti-life. So if a person does not want to be alive then he should listen to this music, it will then fulfill his desire. But I am pro-life so I say listen to some Bhajans about God this is better if you want life.

Ayurveda says that impressions received from outside and air we breathe are forms of food. So unless you know how to transform incoming impressions then I would reccomend maintining the purity of your brains and consuming food that will energise you with life and not deaden you.

[mcshantihank]

quoting from http://www.arshabodha.org/article_17.html:

Question: Swamiji, what is the role of music in the process of spiritual growth?

Answer: There are a number of ways in which music can serve as sadhana, spiritual practice. The power of music goes far beyond conventional ideas about singing bhajans and other forms of devotional music.

On the spiritual journey to discover God's presence within ourselves, we must be prepared to employ all of our faculties to reach this lofty goal. We must employ our intellects in scriptural study. We must employ our minds in meditation. And we must also employ our emotions. To ignore our emotions is to deny ourselves a powerful means for spiritual growth. Music appeals to our emotions. While words speak primarily to our intellects, music speaks directly to our hearts. The right kind of music can elevate our hearts and evoke strong emotions that draw us closer and closer to God.

Further, the practice or performance of music can be very meditative. To sing or play an instrument demands a great deal of attention. Carefully focusing one's mind while singing or playing music helps to create mental discipline. This kind mental discipline is extremely helpful in the formal practice of meditation. A mind disciplined by music is much less likely to wander at the time of meditation.

Finally, music creates an opportunity for laya, absorption. Music can lead one's mind to a state of mystical union with the divine. Such a condition is similar to that of savikalpa samadhi achieved in meditation. This is a state in which all impurities are purged from the mind and one is plunged into an experience of merging with the divinity already present within. This experience is perhaps the greatest blessing of music as sadhana.

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.



Namaste!
How to cope with subcultures and artist like Marilyn Manson? What would be the vedic advice?

But if you listen to MM can't you just learn something about life?
why is darker subcultures not good?


A young new entrant to HDF (who is yet to introduce himself/herself), aged only 20 years, and is obviously influenced by music of the type flaunted by people like MM, has sought 'vedic advice' about 'how to cope with subcultures and artist like Marilyn Manson'.

What reply is a conscientious Hindu expected to give the member? That anything goes/could go in Hinduism since there are already many fake svAmis and gurus who are after money and name? And if someone reasons out the possible action of harmful music on the physical and subtle bodies and quotes an upaniShad, it amounts to sermonizing, so be it.

Hindu purANas have enough warnings about the state of chaos that would prevail in the Kali Yuga. Unlike in the Islam, a Hindu has an individual freedom to choose his/her guru--traditional or modern. A Hindu has also the individual freedom to criticize, which is the reason we have, as EM would reiterate, so much different views in Hinduism.

Personally, I have no time for or interest in the Western music--classical or modern, and for me it is not necessary for my spiritual sAdhana or my worldly entertainment. I have enough to worry about the Indian film industry denigrating Hindu culture, tradition and religion, and the modern Hindu children, youth and even parents taking to them with such ignorance, indulgence and negligence.

I reiterate that the gAyatrI mantra is a veda mantra and not a bhajan, so it cannot be sung like a bhajan, and that anyone trying to do it that way is wrong. I have also clarified earlier, that bhajans play a vital part in Hindu bhakti sAdhana and ARE the means to spiritual progress in the kali yuga.

Subcultures such as the followers of western music celebrities might have their own place and value in the world of entertainment, even for a Hindu. At the same time, IMO, their music, where it is gross, has no scope for a seeker's spiritual progress.

[MahaHrada]

To me this amounts to someone drowning in his own faeces while pointing at others calling them dirty.

[MahaHrada]

Regarding Anuradha Paudhwal, of course Gayatri should be pronounced correctly, but if someone belives a song can threaten or destroy dharma there is something terribly wrong with the state of dharma, not with the song. If ones subtle body is influenced by something as innocent as music and art there is something wrong with the subtle body, not with the music and art.

So please lets clean up the dirt on the front door before pointing fingers at others and whining and being offended just like a bunch of crazy mullahs and xtians about singing and dancing and some controversial lyrics. If young people are fed up with religion it is not only their fault. It is also a reaction to the hypocrisy that allows fake swamis to molest children and the "satvic" and "pious" hindu is looking the other way, at the same time whining and being offended about people that listen to one piece or the other of some controversial music and art. That means it is the good people that begin to avoid religion because of the weak and evil state of it. Weakness of subtle body and non virtue of sadhaks and powerlessness of dharma increases so much that even a song or bhajan can become a threat for it? Such a dharma is useless it cannot protect anyone. Is that what we should belive? If there is no change in the attitude i foresee a grim future for Hinduism.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

I am trying to understand what's up with MahaHrada ji's objection here or the lack off it in the case off subcultures,

How is this conducive to Hindu Dharma?

who has denied anyone their freedom of choice?.

Jai Shree Krishna

[MahaHrada]

Pranam all

I am trying to understand what's up with MahaHrada ji's objection here or the lack off it in the case off subcultures,

How is this conducive to Hindu Dharma?

who has denied anyone their freedom of choice?.

Jai Shree Krishna

Dear Ganeshprasadji,

I do not say that listening to music or lack of it is conductive or not to Hindu dharma. But making people fearful and afraid that music can damage their aura or subtle body is more like the mullah or xtain missionary priest threatening people with some irrational fear of sinful behaviour than anything i associate with Hindu dharma.

Is a Hindu without any protection and blessing by Guru by the kula devata or the ishta devata and his sadhana and dharma itself that his "aura colors" and "chakras" can be damaged or made spinning in wrong directions by listening to "wrong" music or bhajans? Voicing western new age rubbish like this causes million times greater damage to the dharma than any song or bhajan can ever do even if it tries really hard to be offending and controversial.

It is this perpetrating and injecting of nonsense like this into India and Hindu dharma that makes western "converts" so immensly dangerous for the traditional Hindu dharma, even if they are well meaning. This attempt of degradation already began with the theosophical society, injecting all kind of rubbish like Lemuria, Atlantis akashic records, aura colors, and other pestilences into Hindu Dharma , This already begun as early as the 19th century and has been going on for ages until today. Since i am a westerner and know both the Hindu shastras and the western new age movement and other earlier western spiritualistic movements like freemasonry and theosophy i have an overview and can comment with some authority on such injections.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam MahaHrada ji


Dear Ganeshprasadji,

I do not say that listening to music or lack of it is conductive or not to Hindu dharma. But making people fearful and afraid that music can damage their aura or subtle body is more like the mullah or xtain missionary priest threatening people with some irrational fear of sinful behaviour than anything i associate with Hindu dharma.


I am sorry but I did not see anyone here issuing fatvas like a mulla, opinion were expressed if that is going to damage hindu dharma , why do you think opinion through medium of music would not bring the same result?
Music is wonderful thing, we have different ragas to influence the different moods. If it can melt a stone (heart), light a fire(arouse passion) or bring rain(tears) sure a wrong type of music would have that kind of influence would it not?


Is a Hindu without any protection and blessing by Guru by the kula devata or the ishta devata and his sadhana and dharma itself that his "aura colors" and "chakras" can be damaged or made spinning in wrong directions by listening to "wrong" music or bhajans? Voicing western new age rubbish like this causes million times greater damage to the dharma than any song or bhajan can ever do even if it tries really hard to be offending and controversial.
Yes the protection is always there and just as Ghandhi ji said let the wind flow from all direction but I refused to be blown by anyone off them. So anyone who is firmly established in dharma, nothing could or should affect them but for those who are starting and thus not firmly rooted will easily get blown off. As we say sang aevo rang roughly translated company we keep will rub off.
I don’t know anything about aura or chakra (may be I should) but I do know when I am listening to good kirtan or bhajan it really does uplift me, that is the power off listening to transcendental vibration generated by powerful kirtan.


It is by perpetrating and importing western rubbish like this into India and Hindu dharma that makes western "converts" so immensly dangerous for the traditional Hindu dharma. This attempt of degradation already began with the theosophical society in the 19th century and has been going on for ages.
Since i am a westerner and know both the Hindu shastras and the western new age movement and other earlier western spiritualistic movements like freemasonry and theosophy i am in a good position to comment on such injections.

I can appreciate and I am aware a western convert could bring their vasnas and culture that could dilute the Hindu ethos.
But I am still trying to understand why you are defending such kind of music or objecting to someone’s opinion that it is not conducive for one’s spiritual progress.

Jai Shree Krishna

[NayaSurya]

As a westerner who is still young enough to admit that I remember this particular performer in his younger days...I can offer something to this conversation.

Through music we can learn, good and bad. You can feel another person's anger, feeling of oppression...MM speaks much of this...

Let me show you:

"The Beautiful People"
Marilyn Manson

And I don't want you and I don't need you
Don't bother to resist, or I'll beat you
It's not your fault that you're always wrong
The weak ones are there to justify the strong

The beautiful people, the beautiful people
It's all relative to the size of your steeple *This is reference to western religion*
You can't see the forest for the trees
You can't smell your own poopy on your knees

There's no time to discriminate,
Hate every :Cool:.

That's in your way...

[Chorus:]
Hey you, what do you see?
Something beautiful, something free?
Hey you, are you trying to be mean?
If you live with apes man, it's hard to be clean *Again he is refering to living with the barbarian*

The worms will live in every host
It's hard to pick which one they eat most

The horrible people, the horrible people
It's as anatomic as the size of your steeple *Thoughts on Capitalism/greed and western religion*
Capitalism has made it this way,
Old-fashioned fascism will take it away

[Chorus]

There's no time to discriminate,
Hate every :Cool: .

That's in your way...


Okay so this is what we're talking about. A man who feels this way has much to teach someone who has never felt wronged by the western christians the way this young man feels wronged.

Yajvan was the one who finally helped me understand about these more fierce forms of expression. He asked me a simple question.

"How does it make you feel?"

Things can be learned from even the darkest places....from the darkest experiences.

When I listen to MM, I feel his anger, passion and pain. I understand his words wholey.

One who is sound in their spirituality has nothing to fear from him. As a parent I do not allow him yet in our home...but if the children became adults and wanted to listen to his music I would offer it to them.

Because then, they would be strong enough to listen to it objectively.

Ultimately this music could trigger this animal vessel...but then it would be I who allowed such a thing. Ultimately music, art and every single thing under this bright sun should not be able to cause me to do anything which would harm my spiritual journey.

I listen to mostly mantra all day, I sing them all day. Even in places where I am in contact with the barbarian. I also listen to rap, rock, 1920's, 30's 40's and 50's big band, techno, industrial Goth...pretty much anything with the exception of most country music.

Let me explain it this way...

I live by the ocean, it's the most beautiful place on earth....and I wake up to this every day...but after 20 years of waking up this way I no longer see what's infront of me....the human mind has a way of dulling this in such a way.

I go to visit the mountains and think WOW how beautiful is this! Totally new perspective on life from this change in scenery/change of view.

But, after a month or so...I miss the waves...the heat of the sand between my toes. I go home and seeing it the first time after many months....I see it with the new eyes and feel that same love reborn.

Listening to mantra day and night is wonderful. But I like to fill in the quiet with other people's words...passions, angers and frustrations. I learn a lot from these breaks in the beautiful music and bliss.

I learn about this world outside my beautiful existence....a world of hate and intolerance. From this hill I can learn despite my inability to leave it.

When I return to my beloved songs. Hey Govinda Hey Gopala by Jagjit Singh...it just makes it even more sweeter. Like an oasis at the end of a dry hot journey.

In the end, this passionate music can only harm one who would allow it. As with anything we encounter on the outside.

[Kumar_Das]

music is a personal matter and depends solely on the tastes and liking of the concerned individual . music does not affect spiritual progress .

but hard rock and similar heavy stuff can bring about mental agitation . and as we all know spiritual advancement is directly proportional to calming down of mind . this way it might affect spiritual progress , to a limited extent .

but most importantly , when a person has developed a natural love for god and is actually seeking him , he wouldnt want to listen to any such things at all . it simply cant attract him anymore . not just that , anything not in relation with god ( be it music , relatives or friends) would repel him back .

Interesting that you should say that. A recent convert to Islam that I know is an avid listener of Heavy Metal.

Many Shaivites listen to Heavy Metal as well.

The guy at vocals is a Tamil Shaiva Brahmin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xVFgCjJm44

[MahaHrada]

Pranam MahaHrada ji
I am sorry but I did not see anyone here issuing fatvas like a mulla, opinion were expressed if that is going to damage hindu dharma , why do you think opinion through medium of music would not bring the same result?


Listening to music can bring diverse results that will depend of course on the music but more importantly on the person listening.
Since result are depending on the person and the circumstances it is a private matter which kind of music one likes and listens to, except with the christians, and muslims who restrict performance of art and music and keep the followers of their religion in the fear of sin and damage.

The Op wanted to hear the viewpoint of vedic dharma and new age material is presented to him, including threat of damage to his "soul" should he listen to a certain kind of music like in Islam and Xtianity.



Music is wonderful thing, we have different ragas to influence the different moods. If it can melt a stone (heart), light a fire(arouse passion) or bring rain(tears) sure a wrong type of music would have that kind of influence would it not?


This is all true but I object only that someone else decides what kind of art is good for a person without knowledge of the person and the circumstances.
So who are we to decide this? This is just like issuing fatwas. Recently TTA provided a link to a strategic computer game he played while listening to purusha suktam, i would never do that i feel this is very inappropriate for me, but do i go around criticising him for this or even have a bad feeling? No certainly not, am i the pope or what? If he likes to treat veda mantras casually, it is his decision alone, not mine. If we give this freedom of choice up we give up the heart of Hindu Dharma.



Yes the protection is always there and just as Ghandhi ji said let the wind flow from all direction but I refused to be blown by anyone off them. So anyone who is firmly established in dharma, nothing could or should affect them but for those who are starting and thus not firmly rooted will easily get blown off. As we say sang aevo rang roughly translated company we keep will rub off.
I don’t know anything about aura or chakra (may be I should) but I do know when I am listening to good kirtan or bhajan it really does uplift me, that is the power off listening to transcendental vibration generated by powerful kirtan.
I can appreciate and I am aware a western convert could bring their vasnas and culture that could dilute the Hindu ethos.
But I am still trying to understand why you are defending such kind of music or objecting to someone’s opinion that it is not conducive for one’s spiritual progress.

Jai Shree Krishna

I am neither condemming nor defending any style of music i am only objecting against the judgemental way an innocent and free choice of art and music is turned into some kind of sin, in such a way that people are threatenend with western new age superstitions about negative aura colors and chakras spinning in the wrong directions, pretending that such ideas are based on vedic dharma. I probably have too much respect and studied too long and hard to understand the authentic teachings of the yoga shastras, tantras and agamas that treat the subject of chakras, kundalini and related topics to ignore this thread in a light hearted way.

[Eastern Mind]

quoting from http://www.arshabodha.org/article_17.html:

Question: Swamiji, what is the role of music in the process of spiritual growth?

Answer: There are a number of ways in which music can serve as sadhana, spiritual practice. The power of music goes far beyond conventional ideas about singing bhajans and other forms of devotional music.

On the spiritual journey to discover God's presence within ourselves, we must be prepared to employ all of our faculties to reach this lofty goal. We must employ our intellects in scriptural study. We must employ our minds in meditation. And we must also employ our emotions. To ignore our emotions is to deny ourselves a powerful means for spiritual growth. Music appeals to our emotions. While words speak primarily to our intellects, music speaks directly to our hearts. The right kind of music can elevate our hearts and evoke strong emotions that draw us closer and closer to God.

Further, the practice or performance of music can be very meditative. To sing or play an instrument demands a great deal of attention. Carefully focusing one's mind while singing or playing music helps to create mental discipline. This kind mental discipline is extremely helpful in the formal practice of meditation. A mind disciplined by music is much less likely to wander at the time of meditation.

Finally, music creates an opportunity for laya, absorption. Music can lead one's mind to a state of mystical union with the divine. Such a condition is similar to that of savikalpa samadhi achieved in meditation. This is a state in which all impurities are purged from the mind and one is plunged into an experience of merging with the divinity already present within. This experience is perhaps the greatest blessing of music as sadhana.


Vannakkam mcshantihank: The link didn't work for me, perhaps you could re do it.

Aum namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté ganeshprasad,


Pranam MahaHrada ji

Music is wonderful thing, we have different ragas to influence the different moods. If it can melt a stone (heart), light a fire(arouse passion) or bring rain(tears) sure a wrong type of music would have that kind of influence would it not?

Well said... is it ( the music vibrations) life supporting ? That is at the root of the conversation as I see it.


The sādhu may be strong and unaffected in a negitive manner due to his grounded state of stability, this is true.
Yet those sound vibrations are not constrained to one person's ears i.e. the surrounding people and environment receive the influence.


I will take the instruction of Vasișțha-ji . For me , music falls under good company. In the work Yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa, also known as the Yoga Vasișțha, vasișțha'-ji speaks to Śrī Rāmaḥ and says the following:

There are 4 gatekeepers at the entrance to the realm of enlightenment that is: self-control, spirit of enquiry, contentment, and good company" ( Good company in this case is the surroundings of those in the Spirit . This site is a good 'surrounding' for us)

" He who wears the armor of self control is not harmed by sorrows." With enquiry, " the intelligence becomes keen and is able to realize the Supreme". Hence the study of wisdom, the Vedas, the Upanishads, etc. is a good source for this enquiry.

With Contentment - "one does not crave" and one that is not content in the SELF will be subjected to sorrow. The company of the wise and enlightened "enlarges ones intelligence" and "is superior to all other forms of religious practice like charity, austerity, pilgrimage, rites, etc". He concludes by saying "if you cannot practice all 4 , practice one."

praṇām

[MahaHrada]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté ganeshprasad,



Well said... is it ( the music vibrations) life supporting ? That is at the root of the conversation as I see it.


The sādhu may be strong and unaffected in a negitive manner due to his grounded state of stability, this is true.
Yet those sound vibrations are not constrained to one person's ears i.e. the surrounding people and environment receive the influence.


I will take the instruction of Vasișțha-ji . For me , music falls under good company. In the work Yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa, also known as the Yoga Vasișțha, vasișțha'-ji speaks to Śrī Rāmaḥ and says the following:

There are 4 gatekeepers at the entrance to the realm of enlightenment that is: self-control, spirit of enquiry, contentment, and good company" ( Good company in this case is the surroundings of those in the Spirit . This site is a good 'surrounding' for us)

" He who wears the armor of self control is not harmed by sorrows." With enquiry, " the intelligence becomes keen and is able to realize the Supreme". Hence the study of wisdom, the Vedas, the Upanishads, etc. is a good source for this enquiry.

With Contentment - "one does not crave" and one that is not content in the SELF will be subjected to sorrow. The company of the wise and enlightened "enlarges ones intelligence" and "is superior to all other forms of religious practice like charity, austerity, pilgrimage, rites, etc". He concludes by saying "if you cannot practice all 4 , practice one."

praṇām

It is very personal what someone considers good company and what bad, i for example would rather be exposed to 24 hours noise of a live metal band, though i generally dislike this music, rather then being exposed for as much as half an hour to whatever "vibes" emanate from one of the "spiritual discourses" of the likes of "Paramahamsa Nithyananada" or the "Cracki bhagavan and Amma" who i hope will be put behind bars like the Nitty soon, and the surroundings as well will suffer from their "vibrations" in such a case. Instead of pointing fingers at western musicians hindus should clean up their own house first and get rid of the bad "vibrations" of their own "saints" and eliminate the danger caused by such criminals.

[mcshantihank]

http://www.lovecomestotown.com/chakras.html :

The Chakra Dance
(Click on any chakra image to download the relative Chakra Dance Party Music / Videos) [/URL] We will start our dance with the root Chakra situated in the perenium which helps to keep us grounded. This Chakra has much tribal power; it controls the survival instinct, feelings of security and belonging to a group or group identity. Be aware of its dynamic red energy as we use our feet to dance a very tribal and physical dance that will ground us to the floor of the earth. Be bold and expressive and let the beat of the drums stir the passion of the wild animal within us.
Instruments used for the first chakra: Sitar, Bulbul tarang (string) (http://www.jaisiyaram.com/shoppingcart/categories.php?category=Chakra-Dance-Party-Music) The dance moves up to the Sacral Chakra situated in our pelvic area. The colour is orange and the dance is sexual and sensual. As the life force begins to move and pulse through your body allow your imagination to be creative. Lose all those inhibitions and give into your desires and feel the sexual sensual energy flow through your pelvis. Hear the flowing sound of water which is this Chakras element. Let your inner divinity tap into the sensual rhythm.
Instruments used for the second chakra: Santoor (string), Jal tarang (water), Bamboo flute. Then our dance shifts up to the solar plexus above the navel where our dance becomes dynamic and powerful. Be surrounded by the fire element and feel the heat of the brilliant yellow sun energy. Allow the sounds and vibrations from the saxophone, flute and shell horn awaken your passionate consciousness. Lets awaken like we’ve never be awakened before!
Instruments used for the third chakra: Saxophone, Bamboo flute, Shankh (shell horn), Turaee (wind). [URL="http://www.jaisiyaram.com/shoppingcart/categories.php?category=Chakra-Dance-Party-Music"] http://www.lovecomestotown.com/images/4_anahadchakra.jpg (http://www.jaisiyaram.com/shoppingcart/categories.php?category=Chakra-Dance-Party-Music) Now our dance becomes gentle and loving as we move up into the heart Chakra in the centre of the heart. Emerge yourself into this pond of love and soak in the green healing energy that flows out of our heart centre. Let yourself be consumed with love and compassion for yourself and your fellow dancers feel how infectious this cosmic love feels. Close your eyes and hear the romantic gentle sounds of the flute and string instruments. Come on be a great lover tonight!
Instruments used for the fourth chakra: Bamboo flute, Shanaee (wind), Saxophone, Santoor (string). http://www.lovecomestotown.com/images/5_vishuddhchakra.jpg (http://www.jaisiyaram.com/shoppingcart/categories.php?category=Chakra-Dance-Party-Music) As we bring our awareness into the centre of the throat, the throat Chakra, we connect our movement and dance to the dance of the soul. Through the throat Chakra the soul communicates and creates. We dance our dance of creativity surrounded by a bright blue light while hearing the sound of our throat chanting and singing. Forget your surroundings and get carried away with expressing yourself, sing and chant as loud as you want, give your throat a real workout, let’s raise the roof!
Instruments used for the fifth chakra: Mantra chanting, Singing. http://www.lovecomestotown.com/images/6_aagyachakra.jpg (http://www.jaisiyaram.com/shoppingcart/categories.php?category=Chakra-Dance-Party-Music) Our dance becomes quiet and subtle as we move into the third eye Chakra situated between the eyebrows. Our third eye dance is surrounded by a silver light. Dance with the divine powers of wisdom as you start to feel clarity of mind and self. Be conscious of the present moment and enjoy your dancing with us, don’t let your mind roam somewhere else!
Instruments used for the sixth chakra: Ghanta (bells), Chimta (bells), Dhapali (drums), Khanjri (bells). http://www.lovecomestotown.com/images/7_sahastrachakra.jpg (http://www.jaisiyaram.com/shoppingcart/categories.php?category=Chakra-Dance-Party-Music) Then our dance moves into that most sacred place in the Crown Chakra at the top of the head, where we dance with much quietness and shroud ourselves in the colour purple. Here we know ourselves to be divine beings, connected with all of the other divine beings of the universe. Feel the devotional, inspirational and mystical energies as we offer this dance as a prayer to the divine. Seek an intimate connection with the divine while you dance this very beautiful and spiritual dance. Instruments used for the sevens chakra: Bamboo Flute, Sitar, Sarangi, Singing.


what do you think of this information?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam MahaHrada ji

yes if you are objecting to a fundamental right of a jiva to choose, off course you are right and i agree whole heartedly, who are we to argue when Lord Krishna himself having instructed Arjun, left upon him to choose his course of action.
so people are left to listen to what ever music they may wish to, weather it does them any good or not, we may give advise if asked and that was what has happened.

you are right us Hindus should wise up to this fake Gurus but then are we responsible for individual act of anyone? can we really judge anyone? i been told we get the Guru we deserve, so if there are people ready to pay ten thousand dollars, this type of false Guru will pope up.

Jai Shree Krishna

[MahaHrada]

Dear Ganeshprasadji

We have to keep things in relation, how can we warn others about petty things like that some western music and lyrics are maybe harmful for the wrong person and at the same time abstain from even mentioning the huge harm done by fake gurus and fake teachings in the name of Dharma ?

Nobody wants to commit guru and sadhaka nindha, so we let the people run into the arms of fake swamis knowingly, but start whining when somebody listens to other than sattvic music? What kind of impression will we cause with the younger generation? Of course they will reject evil double standards like this and rightfully so.

With the one hand worshipping the padukas of crooks and with the other pointing fingers at others, condemming their "harmful" taste in music and doing that with arguments based on false teachings that lack shastra pramana is intolerable.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté mahahrada


It is very personal what someone considers good company and what bad, i for example would rather be exposed to 24 hours noise of a live metal band, though i generally dislike this music, rather then being exposed for as much as half an hour to whatever "vibes" emanate from one of the "spiritual discourses" of ...

Yes I see your point and must agree. From my point of view it is all about consumption no? What we consume , knowledge, food, music, etc. I do not see it as some things we discount as non-life supporting but will tolerate ( loud music ), but other things ( the darpa guru, etc) we must run the other way. But what you say makes sense.

Now that said, I am not a loud music ( or loud any thing) enjoyer so I am bias , no? But even when I hear some of the music that is rap and listen to the words, for me I am not attracted to listen to it more.
Should I tell others (or scold) not to listen? Surely not. But if asked my opinion I go to what I was taught - is it life supporting , is the 'food' nourishing and uplifting? This has been my litmus test .

I have also listened to certain guru's over the years and looked for the truth in what they offer. I have found disappointment many times in their words - such is the present age of things. So what to do?

The astra (weapon) of indifference should be deployed to those that have ulterior motives. This is what I have been taught as it compliments what my teacher has said many times...When one speaks ill of others he partakes of the sin's of others for whom he speaks.

Should all follow this advise? It is not for me to say.

praṇām

[saidevo]

namste everyone.

mcshantihank has rightly arrived at the connection between the music and the chakras and nAdis. But then we don't have to pay to listen to music that enhances the functions of our chakras. There are plenty of Indian classical and KarnAtik music links from where we can download songs in specific rAgas that can regulate the functioning of our mind and body.

Here is some solid information as to the connection between good classical music (Indian and Western) and the chakras and nADis, and how the haphazard and offbeat rhythms of modern music is bound to create harmful effects in their functions and flow with consequent physical ailments.

• The term rAga is derived from the saMskRta ranga meaning to colour the mind with the sounds emanating from the cosmic vibratory Nada called AUM transmitting prAnic energy.

‣ Technically speaking a rAga is a sequence of notes or svaras which manifest of the universe both internal & external.

‣ It also prescribes a set of rules for building the melody. It specifies the rules for ArohaNam and avarohaNam--movements up and down the scale, which svara--notes should figure more and which notes should be used more sparingly, which notes may be sung with gamaka--deep natural tone, phrases to be used, phrases to be avoided, and so on. The result is a framework that can be used to compose or improvise melodies, allowing for endless variation within the set of notes.

• The immense potential of the power of shabda (cosmic flow of sound) hidden in music was well recognised by the ancient Indian sages and they had devised several musical patterns emanating from the OmkAra for chanting of the Vedic hymns and for distinct spiritual effects.

• The shAstra schools of music discovered musical octave (sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, dha, nI, sa) indwelling in the subtle sounds of Nature and invented the basic classical rAgas for activating specific streams of natural powers and effects; a wide variety of musical compositions were generated consequently.

• According to the Vedic Philosophy, yoga and sangIta--music, both are part of nAda vidyA.

‣ Yoga deals with realisation of anAhata nAda--the sublime sound (extrasensory vibrations) of the eternal force of cosmic consciousness.

‣ Music pertains to the perception and expression of the infinite spectrum of the rhythmic flow of the Ahata nAda[/.b]==perceivable sonic currents, pervading in Nature. [b]Both have direct impact on the shat-chakras hidden along the endocrine column and hence affect our physical as well as subtle bodies.

• The seven basic svaras--musical notes, of the musical octave have a one-to-one correspondence with these chakras (nuclei of subtle energy).

‣ The lowermost (in the kava equina region along the erect endocrine column), viz., the mulAdhAra chakra is associated with the svara 'sa'; that means, the practice of chanting this particular musical note will have impact on awakening or activation of this particular chakra.

‣ Similarly, the chakras successively upwards in this direction namely, the svAdhiSThAna, maNipUra, anahAta, vishuddha, Ajna and the top-most sahastrAra chakra… have correspondence respectively with the svaras "ri", "ga" "ma", "pa", "dha" and "nI".

‣ Significantly, the order of the compositions of these svaras in the Aroha--ascending, and avaroha--descending, patterns of the shAstric musical tunes also match with the top-down (from sahastrAra to mUlAdhAra) and bottom-up (from mUlAdhAra to sahastrAra) directions of the flow of energy or prANa.

• The original rAgas of the Indian classical music (shAstric Music or shAstrIya sangIta--Divine knowledge of prANa movement and sounds emanating from it) are created based on the deep knowledge of harmonious consonance between the seven svaras and chakras. This is why shAstric musical compositions are found to have significant positive effect on the mind-body system and also have the potential to awaken the otherwise dormant faculties.

• Interpretation of the Vedic scriptures on nAda vidyA implies that shAstric Music helps synergetic augmentation of the pancha prANas--the five major streams of vital energy in a human being.

‣ In concordance, research in energy medicine (prANic healing) and classical music shows that specific shAstric rAgas enhance the level of vital energy.

‣ It is the deficiencies and disorders in the vital energy distribution in the mind body system, which is the root cause of its ailing state.

‣ The smooth and increased flow of vital energy rejuvenates the mind and empowers the immune system as well as the auto-regulatory healing mechanism of the body.

‣ This is how classical music generates new hope, joy and enthusiasm in the otherwise dull or depressed mind and removes the disorders and relieves one of the untoward pressures and excitements of inferiority, despair, fear, anger, etc.

‣ Because of its fast remedial effects, which lead to eventual cure of the psychosomatic disorders, music therapy based on classical rAgas is being used or advised these days for the treatment of insomnia, migraine, hypertension, chronic headache, anxiety, etc. and empowers the immune system as well as the auto-regulatory healing mechanism of the body.

• There are several historical examples of the immense remedial power of the shastric ragas.

‣ For instance, in 1933, when the Italian dictator Mussolini was terribly suffering from insomnia, no medicine or therapeutic mode could help him get sleep. Pt.Omkarnath Thakur, a great shAstric musician was visiting Europe around that time. When he heard of Mussolini’s affliction, he agreed to perform remedial musical programme to allay the latter’s sufferings. His performance of the rAga puriya indeed worked magically and Mussolini went into deep sleep within half-an-hour.

‣ This and similar incidents attracted the attention of many contemporary musicians, scientists and physicians and triggered research in music therapy.

• Because of its impact on the chakras (and hence on the prANas), shAstric music not only vibrates and soothes the mental strings, but also energises and balances the organs of the body.

‣ According to Dr.W.H.J.Wales, the Indian classical music can cure the problems of the digestive system, liver including the diseases like jaundice.

‣ Dr. Jane remarks that this music rhythmically vibrates the tissue-membranes of the ear and, relaxes the nerves and muscles beneath the temple and in the brain; as a result of which the sensory and motor systems are energised and activated.

• The empirical studies on therapeutic evaluation of the classical rAgas have shown interesting results.

‣ Singing or engrossed listening of rAga bhairavI (Meaning=shakti--consort of shiva or bhairva) has been found to uproot the diseases of kapha dosha e.g. asthma, chronic cold, cough, tuberculosis, some of the sinus and chest related problems etc.

‣ rAga Asavari is effective in eliminating the impurities of blood and related diseases.

‣ rAga Malhar pacifies anger, excessive mental excitements and mental instability.

‣ rAga saurat and rAga Jaijaivanti have also been found effective in curing mental disorders and calming the mind.

‣ rAga hindola helps sharpening the memory and focussing mental concentration. It has been proved effective in curing liver ailments.

• Apart from the classical rAgas played on musical instruments, the rhythmic sounds of temple bells and shankha (conch shell or bugle) produced during devotional practices have also been found to have therapeutic applications.

• Rock, pop, jaz, rap and disco types of western sensual music have become quite popular in the modern times especially among the teenagers and youth but these had led to the destruction of youth by activating lower chakras which are tamsic in nature.

‣ Also these and other varieties of fast and high-beat music are found to have detrimental effects on health in general & mind in particular leading them to anxieties, depression, anger, rage, lust, immorality, emotional breakdown, panic attacks, incurable diseases, promiscuous behaviour, impatience, mental imbalances, abnormal behaviour.

• The Indian classical music is most suitable and beneficial in this respect and also for spiritual elevation because of the soothing and harmonising impact of the shAstric rAgas on the sat chakras and the prANas. The findings of research laboratories on immense potential of the shastric ragas in music therapy scientifically support these theories.

Source:
http://sites.google.com/site/yoga2ayurveda4healing/ragas-chakras-music
http://sites.google.com/site/yoga2ayurveda4healing/ragas-chakras-music2

For specific rAgas associated with each of the seven chakras, check here:
http://www.shankarramani.com/music-and-chakras.html

I hope our friend will refrain from his baseless accusations using gutter-language against well-meaning advice, after reading this compilation.

[Kumar_Das]

what do you think of this information?


Useless.

[MahaHrada]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté mahahrada

Yes I see your point and must agree. From my point of view it is all about consumption no? What we consume , knowledge, food, music, etc. I do not see it as some things we discount as non-life supporting but will tolerate ( loud music ), but other things ( the darpa guru, etc) we must run the other way. But what you say makes sense.

Now that said, I am not a loud music ( or loud any thing) enjoyer so I am bias , no? But even when I hear some of the music that is rap and listen to the words, for me I am not attracted to listen to it more.
Should I tell others (or scold) not to listen? Surely not. But if asked my opinion I go to what I was taught - is it life supporting , is the 'food' nourishing and uplifting? This has been my litmus test .

Adesh Yayvan
The problem for me is the exagerated hypocrisy, religion whether Hindu Buddhist or Christianity is on the decline among good and honest young (and old) people because they cannot tolerate the double standards and hypocrisy.

If these double standards continue very soon all the virtous people will leave the religion and only egotists, crooks and hypocrits will remain, people whining about non issues like taste in music and arts, while themselves bowing down to crooks and sinners these kind of people can be found abundantly in all religions.



I have also listened to certain guru's over the years and looked for the truth in what they offer. I have found disappointment many times in their words - such is the present age of things. So what to do?



Thats why i suggest that pointing fingers to some more or less innocent entertainers calling them depraved or debauched is hypocritical to the utmost.
Instead we should be ashamed of our own errors impurities and shortcomings that made us bow to debauched and depraved Gurus that are million times worse than any Musician can ever become.

Thats why i said drowning in faeces but calling others dirty, if that is "dharmic" i would prefer death metal.



The astra (weapon) of indifference should be deployed to those that have ulterior motives. This is what I have been taught as it compliments what my teacher has said many times...When one speaks ill of others he partakes of the sin's of others for whom he speaks.

Should all follow this advise? It is not for me to say.

praṇām

I don´t know, not all off the time i guess, i will tell you a story about what happened some time ago in the tibetan buddhist community in Nepal, nearly all of the Gurus or Lamas where having sex with the western female disciples, but one was extremely addicted to changing his mistresses very often, Everybody from the community knew about this but as usual in the tibetan culture as long as you are not caught red handed all misbehaviour is ignored so everbody was fully prostrating to the Guru and he was considered a saint.

Now there came a time when some of the Women began to become troubled and started fighting among each others this ended with some openly talking about the Guru and his misbehaviour.

Guess who was blamend to be adharmic? Not the Guru inspite that everybody knew he was guilty, but because he was not caught red handed people still prostrated fully, touching his feet, but these poor women instead lost their face, were accused of adharmic behaviour because they made the matter public.

Because of a similar cultural attitude it was so important that a video was made in the case of the "nitty" even if a lakh of witnesses would have come forward all would have been blamend for showing the very bad atitude of Guru Nindha. Maybe we partake of the sin when we make such criminal behaviour public, so what ? If this is the sacrifice that needs to be done? We cannot even breathe without sacrificing the air we hold within. If we keep it inside we die.

I think the advice that ignoring obvious faults is dharmic and the act of exposing them adharmic is part and parcel of a cultural attitude which is an ideal breeding ground for hypocrits, cheats, crooks and criminals, whatever the justification or valid reason for this rule may be.

I assume that probably this could turn out to be one of the nails in the coffin of Hindu Dharma with an approximate rate nowadays of 99% greedy cheats and crooks and criminals amongst the pujaris and modern "Gurus" it is probably time for a change in Attitude and one should stop ignoring the situation, so i will make a first step: some of the worst and most depraved crooks that walked this earth, like sathya sai baba, are still worshipped as gods, even those who know that the crimes are obvious, are afraid of naming him for fear of Guru nindha. But villifying innocent worldly entertainers that is considered dharmic, what a crazy world.

[NayaSurya]

As an avid music collector I must come back here and try to balance out this conversation.

Some of the music I listen to goes beyond even raga to simple vibrations of singular tones. This would be considered probably the highest form of this sort of music we are talking about. Most people in this house can't tolerate it for more than a few minutes. I bet this is not an exception, but based on one's ability to accept that intense vibration. One who can tolerate such things all the time wouldn't suggest to others with a lower capacity to follow them in their practice. As I wouldn't now.

Such is the way of personal taste.

Not all modern music has haphazard beats...

I was raised upon this modern music, I thrived upon it. I listen to classical just as much as I do modern...balance, this is the key.



Have you ever heard the song One in a Million? By Boson?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AamLl681zS4&feature=related



Can You Feel It? By the Jackson Five?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYPqZlhpbQo&feature=related

At Last by Etta James?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVI254QGSQ4


Please, before lumping modern music into the harmful category...at least listen to these songs.

Modern music isn't always so harsh....it's wonderful. A song such as the Cup of Life by Ricky Martin celebrated his country's win in the championship in football.(Soccer to the US)



Each bird in the heavens sings a different song, every waterfall hits harmonics that trigger this soul...the wind blowing in the trees on an autumn day....even in nature not all sounds are in the heavenly harmonic scale. But, they are still beautiful.

Let me tell you a story about my son Alex. He was born deaf. His ears had a fluid from before birth that hardened in his ears and solidified his ear drum. For many years this child lived in silence...I did see a difference in him and took him to our Ped...there it was found the truth.

They fixed his ears, but he was very disturbed by sounds, it overwhelmed him.

The therapist put him on classical music to soothe him...and it drove him insane. The sound was too much. Only then did I realize that this child had to start small.

The crickets, this is where I began. Soon he could tollerate the sounds of vehicles...and one day he could handle storms. Soon he was listening to happy children's songs. About 2 years after his hearing was repaired I introduced him to Chopin - Etude in E Major Opus 10 No 3 'Tristesse'.

I am not going to say that I haven't found better harmonics in Raga. Because I have. But each of us should not be afraid to sample outside the bliss of this perfect form.


Humans are mostly not perfect....and can find beauty even in these rudimentary examples.

Does Marilyn Manson fall into an imperfect example? Yes...but I can still not see any harm in occasionally listening to those lower forms.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam MahaHrada ji


Adesh Yayvan
But villifying innocent worldly entertainers that is considered dharmic, what a crazy world.

Not as crazy as it sounds, so called innocent worldly entertainers are easy to discern and avoid if necessary.

But to judge a Guru now that is whole lot different, unless and until they fall there is no way for mere mortal to pass judgment.

our only guide in this instance is Shastra and one of the guide, very easy to recognition, is that one should not be selling Vedas that would include Yoga, to make a living.

Jai Shree Krishna

[MahaHrada]

Pranam MahaHrada ji



Not as crazy as it sounds, so called innocent worldly entertainers are easy to discern and avoid if necessary.

But to judge a Guru now that is whole lot different, unless and until they fall there is no way for mere mortal to pass judgment.

our only guide in this instance is Shastra and one of the guide, very easy to recognition, is that one should not be selling Vedas that would include Yoga, to make a living.

Jai Shree Krishna


Dear Ganeshprasadji

I differ here it is nowadays very easy to discern false Gurus, at least for me, they are so obviously misbehaving. Long before the nitya scandal happened i looked at one video, after 10 seconds of watching i had to turn it off because the atmosphere that emanated from the screen was so intolerably "evil" and impure it felt almost like a physical stench. I wonder why anyone as much as listens to these crooks without the urge to turn the video off, but whether an entertainer has something genuine to express or whether his music makes some people happy, is not as easy to say because taste in music and art differs so much.

About not taking money for any teaching is what i also learnend of course that applies to Yoga as well, but maybe it is not valid for the therapeutic use of Asanas and Pranayama for well being, when the teacher is more like a Doctor than a spiritual guide or Guru.

[saidevo]

namaste NayaSurya.

Let me clarify a few things for those who have probably misunderstood my statements. I have nothing against any kind of music--classical, modern, or filmy in both Indian and Western styles--when it comes to entertainment, and I listen to Hindi and Tamil film music regularly. Also, I have only referred to the music of MM, with the words debauchery and depravity, based on some of the lyrics that EM pointed out, and not anything at all about the singer.

My personal opinion is that such music may not be conducive to spiritual development. I have also given a compilation in my post no.34 as to the possible reason for this opinion of mine which, I reiterate, is purely personal. In Hinduism, we can easily see that music and dance are intimately connected with sAdhana, and many sages, such as tyAgarAja have attained their mokSha by music. Brahman itself is nAda brahmam for us Hindus in its first stage of manifestation, and shiva-pArvatI and sarasvatI are the gods of music and dance. Our nAtya shAstra and sangIta ratnAkara are upa-vedas, next only to the vedas.

Further, if you go through the links I have given, you would find that although the harmonics of rAga is important for the functional streamlining of the chakras of people with normal health and faculties, there is a svara--note, corresponding to every chakra, so, as you say, I think it is possible to obtain spiritual harmony with singular sounds.

Your narration about your son's health is moving. The important thing is that he has got back his hearing faculty and will gradually pick up. I pray to God Shiva for his welfare and progress.

You are right about the harmony of varied sounds of Nature, which could wonderfully assist meditation. I also agree with you that all modern music is not haphazard in their rhythms. I listened to a sample 'One in a million' you have given and I like it for its soothing notes. In the same way there are some excellent Tamil film songs based on the rAgas of KarnAtik music, but then their lyrics have words and phrases that are double entendre in meaning; and it is disturbing to watch the children taking to them readily and make a show of their skills of singing them on the TV.

[NayaSurya]

You have this Mother's heart for such kind words. Thank you.

This child just turned 12, he still has some problems around large loud crowds. But he has come a long way.

My son actually loves the soundtrack of the movie KRRISH. Main Hoon Woh Aasman and Pyar Ki Ek Kahani. So he is very good listener now.

It's not Chopin, but it's a start:P

[sm78]

4 pages of argument on the supposed effect of marlyn manson music on spirituality

what about the effect of this pointless argument (which is due to complete unfamiliarity or lack of understanding of a certain type music) on our spirituality?

PS: I am a big fan of metal music, and had imagined the Mahahrada wud be the same too. I must say he has left me a little dissapointed for the first time in one of his posts.

[MahaHrada]

4 pages of argument on the supposed effect of marlyn manson music on spirituality

what about the effect of this pointless argument (which is due to complete unfamiliarity or lack of understanding of a certain type music) on our spirituality?

PS: I am a big fan of metal music, and had imagined the Mahahrada wud be the same too. I must say he has left me a little dissapointed for the first time in one of his posts.

I was not really too much exposed to metal. As the years go by I am listening less and less to music and begin to enjoy when there is little distraction.
On top of that i like very little of the modern music, and i am kinda tired listening to the old stuff.
The only metal CD i ever bought was from a band called ministry because i was impressed listening to their song "psalm 69" on the radio, they also quoted A.Crowleys "Book of Lies" which was my favorite at that time, which of course made it special for me: "the way to succeed and the way to suck eggs"

the invisible piss of the holy ghost
comes down like acid rain
they're making a profit off terminal guilt
the scavengers go on parade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9266jHNkQCc

That doesn´t mean i generally avoided noisy colors in my aura but more grunge and punk than metal, i am a big fan of the pixies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGXdXcpNsv4

This human form where I was born I now repent.... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQgIOUwVZ1w

Give me vodooo and after that a little more more voodoo and my chakras are happy, a great hero of my music world is "exuma" he is more than just a musician:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSNIJ5K7wk4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKxyaKYbyC8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b87jkKt_W0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L802jikJmnk

Something to seriously injure your chakras, very dark: front 242, i like(d) that too and still think it is great innovative electronic music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4j1DQnjB0g

I like cranberries especially "Zombie" a song for the "pretacharins"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgzMQTleWlY

In recent years i came to like dub and reggae chill out stuff, I am especiallly fond of mad professor remixes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui_eWpVPS5c

or kruder and dorfmeister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvhXEE0DThM&

Of course you have to turn the volume up!!!!! with these songs

[Sahasranama]

Yes, you can enjoy your tamo guna music. We all have some tamasik habits. It's a classification, not a judgement. ;)

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam MahaHarda ji


Dear Ganeshprasadji

I differ here it is nowadays very easy to discern false Gurus, at least for me, they are so obviously misbehaving. About not taking money for any teaching is what i also learnend of course that applies to Yoga as well, but maybe it is not valid for the therapeutic use of Asanas and Pranayama for well being, when the teacher is more like a Doctor than a spiritual guide or Guru.

False guru is an oxymoron, if they are obviously misbehaving they are no Guru,
Guru Shastra and Sadhu they all should be singing the same tune if not it is not Dharma.

There are always going to be impostor, even mother Sita did not recognise one, until Ravan showed his true face.
Anyone can fall for a Sadhu especially one who seek quick fix. As long as there are people like that we will have those impostor thriving on their misery. Let us not malign Hindu Dharma because off it.

Little wonder when this yoga asana can be justified for therapeutic value the impostor springs up and adds spritual dimension to it and bingo everyone is happy. except us Hindu who then has to pick up the peices.



Nobody wants to commit guru and sadhaka nindha, so we let the people run into the arms of fake swamis knowingly, but start whining when somebody listens to other than sattvic music? What kind of impression will we cause with the younger generation? Of course they will reject evil double standards like this and rightfully so.

Who are these we? I don’t see anyone here advocating embracing fake Guru nor it’s acceptance in general Hindu percept.

Honestly, younger generation is hardly interested in all thing spiritual because Hindu dharma is a path of Sura not for Kayar. A sadhak is tested to the hilt. What youngster in the west or for that matter in the east are ready for sacrifice and austerity?
Fortunate are those who take up this path through their good karma or else we end up being cheated by fakes, like impostors or even music.
　
Jai Shree Krishna

[MahaHrada]

Pranam MahaHarda ji
False guru is an oxymoron, if they are obviously misbehaving they are no Guru,
There are always going to be impostor, even mother Sita did not recognise one, until Ravan showed his true face.

Dear Ganeshprasadji

Of course you are right either one is a Guru or an Imposter, regarding Ravan he was no Impostor he was a great devotee of Lord Shiva and quite accomplished he even cut his own head and sacrificed it to Shiva. He was very dear to Shiva and authored the famous Shiva Tandava Stotra but later great problems started because of the circumstances.


Anyone can fall for a Sadhu especially one who seek quick fix. As long as there are people like that we will have those impostor thriving on their misery. Let us not malign Hindu Dharma because off it.


You are right we cannot blame the dharma for what is happening because of human fault. Since too many parasites have recently emerged from the woodwork it is a problem that has to be adressed and better not ignored.


Little wonder when this yoga asana can be justified for therapeutic value the impostor springs up and adds spritual dimension to it and bingo everyone is happy. except us Hindu who then has to pick up the peices.
Who are these we? I don’t see anyone here advocating embracing fake Guru nor it’s acceptance in general Hindu percept.

Yes true many therapeutic teachers begin to pose as Gurus. Sorry for the remark about "we" I was actually adressing myself and should have said so because it is myself that has been often guilty of avoiding remarks directed against other acharas or teachers including well known godman even if i know they are frauds. It is still my opinion that this attitude is widespread and i am not the only person who is inclined to remain quiet knowing better.



Honestly, younger generation is hardly interested in all thing spiritual because Hindu dharma is a path of Sura not for Kayar. A sadhak is tested to the hilt. What youngster in the west or for that matter in the east are ready for sacrifice and austerity?
Fortunate are those who take up this path through their good karma or else we end up being cheated by fakes, like impostors or even music.
　
Jai Shree Krishna

Yes certainly few, but it is my experience that these few are often discouraged or desinterested because of the bad example of these godmen and the prevalent suffocating hypocrisy.

[MahaHrada]

namste everyone.

I hope our friend will refrain from his baseless accusations using gutter-language against well-meaning advice, after reading this compilation.

This "Advice" and the following smear of artists is so miserably backward my knowledge of gutter language is way too limited to fully expres my disgust for this mentality, so i never even tried to use such a language. Only Mullahs can approach the vileness of the smearing attitude, not even hardcore evangelicals nowadays are that narrowminded.

I never wrote that music cannot be employed in meditation. I only objected to the smear of artists and certain music styles and the sinister threat of damage to the subtle body unless all share one taste in arts and music. This proposal and the accompanying threat is situated way below all humanistic and ethic values. Hinduism is not a brainwash cult.

[rainycity]

Long before the nitya scandal happened i looked at one video, after 10 seconds of watching i had to turn it off because the atmosphere that emanated from the screen was so intolerably "evil" and impure it felt almost like a physical stench.

Can you remember which video it was or what he was saying or doing? What gave the video an impure atmosphere?

[MahaHrada]

Can you remember which video it was or what he was saying or doing? What gave the video an impure atmosphere?

It was the same impression whatever i tried to look at. I guess the feeling of impurity arose due to the difference between his real self and the enacting.

He was hiding his intentions and the mix of his real intentions, which one could guess from the dirty kind of laugh or sudden sideway glances, combinend with the enacted saintliness, the exagerrated smile and outwardly perfect but exagerated peaceful expression, caused this wave of impurity.

For instance when he does the namaskaram it was all so grossly overacted,while internally he was so ruthless, i could feel that intensity, just to give an impression of how f**d up that guy is you know this person was the cause of a suicide because to get a lady he tried for long time to force her to split with her husband, when he finally succeded and had his way with the lady, her husband hanged himself because of grief. Both were disciples! Even having hundreds of other mistresses he needed to split a loving couple. He didn´t care that he causes others death and pain just continued the show.

And then what he said, and the way his voice was modeled, it was all so outwardly perfect, you could see he practised it in front of a mirror first, but without inner meaning, voicing all such platitudes we heard a thousand times before, nothing refreshing or original, nothing simple, nothing natural, nothing humble, everything was looking outwardly way to perfect to be true, too "sweetenend" according to public taste. Real saints behave just like you and me no need for any act. What i mean is that the general public has a prejudice how a saint should act and behave and these con man know these illusions very well and of course try to fulfill this exaggerated romantic dream of a perfect being. A being that never existed and will never exist, except in the vain hopes of a seeker who is frustrated with his own self. A true saint is not aspiring for the position of an entertainer to fulfill the average disciples vain hopes of false glory he will rather destroy illusions, which is not a way to become too much popular. If they become very popular most often there is something wrong.

[rainycity]

And then what he said, and the way his voice was modeled, it was all so outwardly perfect, you could see he practised it in front of a mirror first, but without inner meaning, voicing all such platitudes we heard a thousand times before, nothing refreshing or original, nothing simple, nothing natural, nothing humble, everything was looking outwardly way to perfect to be true, too "sweetenend" according to public taste. Real saints behave just like you and me no need for any act. What i mean is that the general public has a prejudice how a saint should act and behave and these con man know these illusions very well and of course try to fulfill this exaggerated romantic dream of a perfect being. A being that never existed and will never exist, except in the vain hopes of a seeker who is frustrated with his own self. A true saint is not aspiring for the position of an entertainer to fulfill the average disciples vain hopes of false glory he will rather destroy illusions, which is not a way to become too much popular. If they become very popular most often there is something wrong.

wow, here you've expressed my thoughts almost exactly. Its good to see somebody with a different perspective on popular saints. I also think that personalities like nithyananda are a glib enactment of some people's romantic preconceptions of how a saint or enlightened person speaks and acts. And I think those preconceptions are held more so by contemporary people from western cultures, because western culture has a fixation on appearances, romantic ideas and hollywood cinema. And of course gurus and indian spirituality are exotic to westerners who haven't been exposed to that, that can leave us quite naive and romantic about it all.

Those skilled at acting, elocution and ingratiating themselves can come across as enlightened to some. But that doesn't mean they're enlightened. Just as someone with a skill for writing and a knowledge of spirituality can write extensivley about spirituality and enthrall a reader, giving them the impression of an adept or enlightened person.

I don't trust any well known swamis or gurus, or even the unknown ones. I'm skeptical about the wole guru-disciple relationship, it seems too much like a psychological dictatorship and cultic. How can somebody trust anyone to have complete authority over their mind, life and thoughts?

[Sahasranama]

I also agree completely with Mahahrada about the pseudo swamis, but that's another conversation.

[sm78]

It was the same impression whatever i tried to look at. I guess the feeling of impurity arose due to the difference between his real self and the enacting.

He was hiding his intentions and the mix of his real intentions, which one could guess from the dirty kind of laugh or sudden sideway glances, combinend with the enacted saintliness, the exagerrated smile and outwardly perfect but exagerated peaceful expression, caused this wave of impurity.

For instance when he does the namaskaram it was all so grossly overacted,while internally he was so ruthless, i could feel that intensity, just to give an impression of how f**d up that guy is you know this person was the cause of a suicide because to get a lady he tried for long time to force her to split with her husband, when he finally succeded and had his way with the lady, her husband hanged himself because of grief. Both were disciples! Even having hundreds of other mistresses he needed to split a loving couple. He didn´t care that he causes others death and pain just continued the show.

And then what he said, and the way his voice was modeled, it was all so outwardly perfect, you could see he practised it in front of a mirror first, but without inner meaning, voicing all such platitudes we heard a thousand times before, nothing refreshing or original, nothing simple, nothing natural, nothing humble, everything was looking outwardly way to perfect to be true, too "sweetenend" according to public taste. Real saints behave just like you and me no need for any act. What i mean is that the general public has a prejudice how a saint should act and behave and these con man know these illusions very well and of course try to fulfill this exaggerated romantic dream of a perfect being. A being that never existed and will never exist, except in the vain hopes of a seeker who is frustrated with his own self. A true saint is not aspiring for the position of an entertainer to fulfill the average disciples vain hopes of false glory he will rather destroy illusions, which is not a way to become too much popular. If they become very popular most often there is something wrong.

ditto that. while shastras give a lot of adjectives on how a guru should be, a lot of it is unapplicable in the present day.

a truely knowledgable person who has evolved into higher modes of consciousness, can point out our illusions with a couple of words or sentenses. for me this is has been a good test of true vs false gurus.

[MahaHrada]

wow, here you've expressed my thoughts almost exactly. Its good to see somebody with a different perspective on popular saints. I also think that personalities like nithyananda are a glib enactment of some people's romantic preconceptions of how a saint or enlightened person speaks and acts. And I think those preconceptions are held more so by contemporary people from western cultures, because western culture has a fixation on appearances, romantic ideas and hollywood cinema. And of course gurus and indian spirituality are exotic to westerners who haven't been exposed to that, that can leave us quite naive and romantic about it all.

Those skilled at acting, elocution and ingratiating themselves can come across as enlightened to some. But that doesn't mean they're enlightened. Just as someone with a skill for writing and a knowledge of spirituality can write extensivley about spirituality and enthrall a reader, giving them the impression of an adept or enlightened person.


I don´t think the situation in India is better probably worse, it is enough to use the outward dress to fool people into beliving that one is a saint and if you have a few influential people or politicians as disciples you are soon beyond the Law.

Even an atheist western educated Lawyer and Politician like Gandhi , who had no idea about Hinduism, only needed to shave his head and don an ascetic garb to fool the innocent Hindus into trusting him.



I don't trust any well known swamis or gurus, or even the unknown ones. I'm skeptical about the wole guru-disciple relationship, it seems too much like a psychological dictatorship and cultic. How can somebody trust anyone to have complete authority over their mind, life and thoughts?



All the modern neo hindu godman business is unrelated to traditional bharata dharma. In a traditional relationship probing the word of the Guru and asking questions, making up one´s own mind, is encouraged while the modern fakes need submission. All the brain washing and talk about giving up the ego and so on, is only a way to suck the disciples pocket dry of money. Besides an authentic guru only has a few disciples or maybe only one.

Many Hindus think just like me about these con man just they are traditionally very reluctant to criticise other acharas and teachers, i think it becomes pressing to adjust this attitude and speak up. The damage is getting to great.

Another great trick is to fool people into beliving that moksha or enlightenment is an experience and having had this experience they are always one step ahead of you.

If moksha is an experience with a beginning in time, it will also have an end, but to be a permament freedom from the cycle of birth and death it must be a natural inborn state, being in existence since beginningless time and never ending.

Therefore an experience can never be related to moksha, shivatva or enlightment, mahasunya or whatever you call the absolute state. This idea to develop a frustrated desire for a single experience that changes everything is promoted by the godman and used as a kind of whip of a slave master to drive the poor naked slaves along the village main road in submision to the "Enlightened" and they move gladly on in search of the same ultra experience that is just a make belive, a castle of clouds. The closer they think they get to that aim the more it evades.

[MahaHrada]

ditto that. while shastras give a lot of adjectives on how a guru should be, a lot of it is unapplicable in the present day.

a truely knowledgable person who has evolved into higher modes of consciousness, can point out our illusions with a couple of words or sentenses. for me this is has been a good test of true vs false gurus.

Yes indeed, one does not pressingly need a Guru to belief in one thing or another, neo-hindu gurus usually only fill people up with a random belief system but people can change their opinion as much as they want without experiencing any deeper personal development related to anything besides philosophy or some brainwashing and emotional conditioning.

The only thing where a Guru is indispensable is to destroy these random samskaras, Karmas, conditioning, brainwash philosophies and other emotional and physical conditionings that make up our self view.

A Guru doesn´t need to teach the truth, everybody knows the truth already it is inborn into us, and it will come out by itself when the conditionings Karmas and Kleshas and malas are battered down and purified.

I think all the guru shisya relationship should not be about filling up people with a new set of beliefs but rather about emptying illusions out. A Guru does not need to have answers to all questions but instead show us discern between useful and useless questions and show us a good way how to find our own experiential answers for the few useful questions that may remain if any :)