does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about jesus

[Kumar_Das]

Namaste,

This was originally just meant to be a response to a post by ramakrishna but I typed a great length about islam too. I guess it came out along as I was responding to his sentences.



For those of you who think that Jesus Christ never existed, what do you think of those Hindus who still choose to accept the supposed teachings of Jesus that include love, compassion, and forgiveness?

You dont need jesus to learn about all these. There are tonnes of videos on youtube that argue against this supposed morality that xtianity provides us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsgeXubzhf4

watch 2:38 onwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLvf12lJuEQ

best video ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCovYF51qHE

an excellent debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l69QN7ixmM

where was the morality of the british who colonized, tortured, humiliated, lied, suppressed and divided hindus up so that we should adopt xtianity and accept xtians as our rulers?

and not to even speak of the british imperialism as white supermacy upon other races using the bible as justification.

At the end of the day its the passages within the bible that tally with your intuition that you accept. So its a matter of agreement, between whats inside one "holy book" and your own intuition.

Lets observe the quran's depiction of jesus



In Islam (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Islam), Jesus (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Jesus) (Arabic (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Arabic_language): عيسى‎ `Īsā) is considered a prophet Messenger of God (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Rasul) who had been sent to guide the People of Israel (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/People_of_Israel) (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Injil) (gospel).[1] (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/#cite_note-0) The Qur'an (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Qur%27an), believed by Muslims to be God's final revelation, mentions Jesus 25 times.[2] (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/#cite_note-1) It states that Jesus was born to Mary (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Mary) (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus), a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/God) (Arabic: Allah (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Allah)). To aid him in his quest, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Miracle), all by the permission of God. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Crucifixion), but rather he was raised alive up to heaven (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Jannah)


The gospels are man-made completely. It may be corrupted or what not, but its originally corruption itself created by mere men. Lies can be corrupted further after being compiled. But they were originally lies and thus still are.

A man that never existed, could not have been born by virginal conception, perform miracles nor raised alive up to the heavens.

muhammad's main intention was to produce a "monotheistic" religion that would trump judaism and xtianity and convert everyone into his faith.

thats why the quran gives description of moses and jesus and tries to potray them as prophets of its own deity and speak of them positively.

the quran pretty much is a book designed to convert everyone. what is most impressive about it is how it takes advantage of the weaknesses of the human pyschology.

if you are jewish or xtian you would naturally be attached to the main figure of your religion that is moses or jesus. so by incorporating them into his book and pretending to "explain" these figures muhammad used them as supposedly preaching about the deity he himself fashioned.

the only intention here is to recruit jews and xtians by bringing them under his religion.

muhammad had a very neat idea, he decided that his deity is the deity of all. but he alone is supposedly the "final and last"(both are the same thing but im quoting the way muslims speak here) messenger of God. and every other religion out there is corrupted.

so whatever major/influential religions muhammad decided to deal with, he "explained" their figures as serving his own religion that he himself manufactured.

if muhammad had decided to use Rama by spinning him to be a prophet... saying Rama was a great king for his people, a noble man of virtues, a great servant of "allah" that sought to kill ravana the enemy of "allah" who attacked innocent people because he was corrupted by "satan". and to fulfill his destiny by killing the enemy of allah, allah granted him miracles such as the boons, the vanara army and the bridge to lanka...

heck I dont even want to think about it.:rolleyes:

you see how they play with emotions and potray themselves as better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8fiayHbVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoxvKj-z0_0

really when you get to the bottom of it all, its just really messed up, its just sheer exploitation.

and if these people just left whatever they practiced to themselves alone it would be alright. but they want to try and stand above us.

you can just see for yourself the countless number of muslims on youtube trying to propagate their religion. and these filthy untouchables have the audacity to try and tackle our faith.

heres one example
http://www.youtube.com/user/hijabiflower

just read her description


This is my official youtube Channel.
I am a Sunni Muslim
I love Islam and I also have love for my Nation of Islam brothers and sisters. I respect all religions and races. I am just trying to be a good muslim. If you have any questions about Islam, muslim women, Nation of Islam, hindu and sikh culture or anything else I will do my best to answer. Asalamu Aleikum (Peace be upon you)


this of course, is all deception. she is performing taqiyyah and dawah.

she calls herself "hijabiflower".

the hijab is the clothing that covers all of the skin. and is supposed to "preserve" of modesty and sign of chastisity.

ironically, this "flower" who has decided to conceal her delicate self in garbage bags in order to prove her modesty and chastisity has got such words to offer.

just read her recent comments


"@LouisC89 Yeah, too bad your western women's *censored* are way too loose for muslim men. Western women need some cream to tighten up before they come to the muslim town :)"

and so much for respect of all people huh.


"If this was true why are soo many western women attracted to islam? Maybe Islam is strangly liberating or maybe your women are just stupid... something tells me my first suggestion might make more sense"

Yeah your allah.:rolleyes:

who is she to try and explain to me about Hinduism?

these people are utterly disgusting and i dont ever want to associate myself with them. surely not having to embrace them as siblings of faith.

the muslims have a very bad image in the west, which is mainly due to their own behaviour. they have no one else to blame, really.

and yet today somehow they are mysteriously "moderate" and "peaceful".

history only shows to this as being much to the contrary. we dont have to go any further than the days of muhammad himself. the man who started this all.

and you dont have to judge muslims or the history of islam either. the quran speaks for itself.


What do you think of Mohandas Gandhi, who found solace in the teachings of Jesus, especially the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount?

Gandhi afterall was a politician. I could care less what he had to say about religion. As a politician you'd want to butter up to as many people as possible.

[sanjaya]

This is a most interesting question. To give Ramakrishna an answer, I'm always in favor of people practicing love, compassion, and forgiveness. Qualities such as this will make the world a better place to live in, whether they are practiced by Hindus, Christians, or atheists.

However, I would point this out. While the words of Jesus offer us morality, the same moral teachings can be found in Hinduism. Shirdi Sai Baba, for example, teaches the same things. Secondly, the wider teachings of Christianity are, contrary to popular belief, not moral at all. Christianity is fundamentally opposed to family values. Christianity teaches that non-Christians should convert to their religion, and discard their families if they refuse to follow suit. For all that Christian politicians preach about family values, these values only work when everyone around you (without exception) happens to be Christian as well.

If we start accepting Christianity and allowing it to poison Hindu culture, we will be causing the degradation of morals and cultural values. Christianity is, when practiced properly, a fundamentally immoral religion.

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste Kumar_Das,

I watched all of the videos you linked to, and I already knew most of the things the videos are about. I am well aware of the violence, hypocrisy, and hatred that is present in Christianity and the Bible. I have never read the Old Testament, and I never intend to, as that is the part of the Bible that contains most of the hatred and violence in it. I have read pieces of the New Testament, and I will continue to reflect on the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes for inspiration.

I totally understand what you are saying, that Hindus do not need Jesus for morality. However, I see no problem if we look into some of the sayings of Christ for morality and inspiration. I completely agree that all of the good morals and sayings of Jesus are present in Hinduism as well. I acknowledge that the core teachings of the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes are found in Hindu scriptures as well, which predate the Bible hundreds and even thousands of years.

Christians view the Bible as the word of God, and they must accept every word of it if they are really Christians. However, as a Hindu, I am free to pick and choose what verses I want to accept and learn from. Of course I completely reject the hate-filled and utterly ridiculous Bible verses. Yet, I also accept some teachings from the Bible, like the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes. I understand if you want to reject 100% of what is in the Bible, since whatever good is in the Bible is also present in Hinduism. However, I choose to accept those select few Bible verses, and I also acknowledge that those teachings are present in Hinduism as well.

The Islamic view of Christ is very interesting indeed. I agree with you that Muhammad incorporated Jesus and Moses into his religion that he was making up so it could be seen as the completion of the Abrahamic faith. It started with Judaism, continued with Christianity, and Muhammad would end it. Muslims view Christ as the second greatest prophet, after Muhammad. It was quite a clever idea by Muhammad, and it seems to have worked, as Islam so far has spread faster than Christianity and within a few decades it is expected to overtake Christianity.





Gandhi afterall was a politician. I could care less what he had to say about religion. As a politician you'd want to butter up to as many people as possible.

This is the one thing I disagree with you about. Mohandas Gandhi, to me and many others, was much more than a politician. He was the father of India, a nonviolent leader, a revolutionary, and a great religious leader. I care a lot about what Gandhi had to say about religion. He was as devout a Hindu as you can be, yet he still showed the greatest respect for the truth that was present in other religions. One of my favorite quotes by Gandhi is, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I do not think Gandhi was open to other religions just so he could butter up to as many people as possible. He never hesitated to point out the hypocrisy in many Christians, and how they were so unlike Christ. He was open to other religions because he accepted the truth and goodness that were present in them, and at the same time he rejected the lies and hatred that were also present in them. That is what I do.

Hare Krishna

[jaggin]

Namaste,

You dont need jesus to learn about all these. There are tonnes of videos on youtube that argue against this supposed morality that xtianity provides us.

where was the morality of the british who colonized, tortured, humiliated, lied, suppressed and divided hindus up so that we should adopt xtianity and accept xtians as our rulers?


At the end of the day its the passages within the bible that tally with your intuition that you accept. So its a matter of agreement, between whats inside one "holy book" and your own intuition.


The gospels are man-made completely. It may be corrupted or what not, but its originally corruption itself created by mere men. Lies can be corrupted further after being compiled. But they were originally lies and thus still are.



I agree. You don't need Jesus to teach you morality but you do need Him to be able to practice it. I am not saying that you couldn't practice morality to some extent without Him but the extent that people fall short is described in the world about you.

You are quick to judge but you have to be judged by the same standard. Are you going to tell me that people from India were always perfect and never did anything wrong? What about the war that Arjuna was fighting that Krishna considered a necessary act of righteousness because the enemy deserved it?

One would hope that Hindus had a better Dharma than intuition. If there is one God wouldn't you expect Him to be consistent? Granted that it appears He adjusts laws to fit the culture but I believe the intent of the law is the same.

This is a complete falsehood no matter who holds the opinion.

There is no doubt that Muslims have a dim view of Jesus but that is because they have misconstrued their own scripture and ignored the gospel (that the Qu'ran says God gave to Jesus). A Hindu could do the same thing by wringing words from Krishna to make Him sound more like God than Jesus and point to Jesus as a phony. This kind of outlook does not come from God but from ego.

[atanu]

I agree. You don't need Jesus to teach you morality but you do need Him to be able to practice it. I am not saying that you couldn't practice morality to some extent without Him but the extent that people fall short is described in the world about you.



Namaste jaggin

I remember that our last interaction stopped when i asked you whether you thought Jesus alone was the way and thus hindus were sort of lost? You did not answer. WRT to falling short aspect you have written above, i respectfully note the same in your view.

Hindus did not need Jesus, else God would have ensured his birth/appearance/manifestation on this soil. And the wise men of east would not have declared His coming. You will note that the wild men of west killed Him eventually.

About the WAY, can you kindly tell me whether Jesus the physical man is the way or Jesus the spiritual truth is the way? If the former was true then there was never a way before Jesus appeared in physical form. Whereas we know that the WAY (we call it Gati called Vishnu) is without beginning as God/Brahman is.


I hope you are able to accept that Christianity/churchianity is about politics more than it is about spirituality. At the outset, I accept that this phenomenon is not absent in any religion to lesser or more extent but in my view Christians are distorting the goodness with their strenuos effort at finding s--t elsewhere rather than in themselves.

Why should a christian or a hindu or any spiritual seeker occupy his/her mind with what wrong exists elsewhere - in others and in the world, rather than striving to become perfect oneself? Is God then a powerless and strait jacketed fellow that He has no freedom except for acting through Jesus? And do not bigoted/hardliner Muslims also claim that Muhammad is the only prophet, when you know and I know that Koran does not say so?


In short: Hindus do not need Christians to teach them. Christians who are over concerned with smelly s--t elsewhere but not in themselves are acting out of rajo guna -- with a distorted Royal outlook. A reaction sets in the world.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

Note: Granted that i have allowed my awareness to drift to a political question which is of no avail since the omnipotent and omniscient Lord is the WAY.

[atanu]

One would hope that Hindus had a better Dharma than intuition. ------


Namaste Jaggin

Most people do not know what you are saying and how treachorous you are here. How do you know that Hindus have only intuition? It is a dogma in your religion that you are expressing here.

What you call mere Intuition is obtained not in human mind. I will request you to kindly be more straightforward. Do you think that deviousness is superior morality?

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste Jaggin

Most people do not know what you are saying and how treachorous you are here. How do you know that Hindus have only intuition? It is a dogma in your religion that you are expressing here.

What you call mere Intuition is obtained not in human mind. I will request you to kindly be more straightforward. Do you think that deviousness is superior morality?

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste jaggin

With your confirmation about victory of All (Lord) for All in the thread 'Christianity is Simpler', I take back above post. Sorry for the harsh tone. Kindly forgive me.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[sanjaya]

I agree. You don't need Jesus to teach you morality but you do need Him to be able to practice it. I am not saying that you couldn't practice morality to some extent without Him but the extent that people fall short is described in the world about you.

I keep hearing evangelical Christians of all stripes making the claim that true morality is impossible without belief in Jesus and conversion to Christianity. However I never have seen any justification for this claim. There are Christians who are highly moral, and Christians who are highly immoral. The same is true of Hindus, assuming that we Hindus are being judged by your Judeo-Christian standard of ethics. All the rhetorical gymnastics in the world won't get you away from the fact that Christianity has no apparent effect one personal morality. The only way out of this dilemma is for you to count belief in Jesus as a point of morality. At that point you've come up with a useless definition of morality; if belief in Jesus is defined as a moral act, then Hindus are immoral by definition.

The fact is, Christianity has no discernable effect on the way Christians live their lives. There's no evidence for this belief that faith in Christianity is necessary for personal morality.


I remember that our last interaction stopped when i asked you whether you thought Jesus alone was the way and thus hindus were sort of lost? You did not answer. WRT to falling short aspect you have written above, i respectfully note the same in your view.

To be fair to him, one would probably get kicked off of HDF for saying "believe in Jesus or you'll go to hell." But yes, I've noticed that evangelicals will rarely start out by telling a person that he's headed for hell. They will refuse to answer this question and instead default to "only God can judge people." This, I feel, is a cop out. Everyone knows that Christianity prescribes condemnation for the rest of us. But Christians know that this is, at best, a highly impolite thing to say to anyone, and thus will obscure that belief even though they hold to it. If you look at the now-famous guide for converting Hindus, it says that you should never bring up the following two point of Christian doctrine when trying to convert one of us:

Christianity teaches that Hindus are going to hell.
Christianity requires Hindu converts to also convert their families, or abandon them altogether.The first point of doctrine is obscured because they know we view God as highly benevolent, and above condemning human souls for the sake of his own glory. The second point is obscured because they know the high commitment that we have to family values. This is why I have been saying that Christianity is opposed to family values. I hope that evangelicals will ask themselves: what kind of a religion tries to hide its own beliefs from proselytes? Doesn't this sound like the kinds of disclaimers that corporations put into the fine print of their commercials? Does this sound like the kind of religion that God would have us practice?

[Sahasranama]

Christianity teaches that Hindus are going to hell.I hear what you are saying, but honestly I don't care that much what Christians believe. Let them, it's not our problem really.

[NayaSurya]

It is a problem when you are surrounded by them.

Our children were given bibles as a present in their public school class and when they kindly decline, they were threatened with eternal damnation.

Numerous times children pressure our children to tell them why they won't go to church with them and when my child finally admits that we are not Christian...the other child declares in front of everyone that we will burn in hell.

Church is big business here, there dozens and dozens, even in tiny communities. They need lots of money for operation. So they hold "fun festivals" "community festival" or "family festivals" where they pay for bouncy houses, free food and balloons. Then they hold givaways for free cell phones or Ipods. They get your name off the list and begin calling you. A friend of mine went through this, I was smart enough to stay away from those things...nothing is ever "free".

The parents are even sneakier...they draw you in by having a "sleep over" on a Saturday night. The next day you get a call early saying that they can't give your son a ride home because they have church...but they would love to bring your son with them and they will just drop him off after.

You immediately have to rush out the door so your child is not left alone, or drug into indoctrination. I can not count the times on my hands this has happened...it's been many many numerous times. So many, I refuse to let my children sleep over on Saturdays.

The worst offender of this behavior was a child who my son had to have contact with because he was Senior Drama department president. This girl would hold cast parties and offer to drive all the drama department home afterwards. But then would refuse to take them home unless they went to church with her. He called me more than once begging me to come get him before she left for her church.

Sometimes I feel as if we live in a pressure cooker.

I have met kind, loving Christians in my lifetime...three were like Fathers to me. A mormon elder, catholic priest and the last was a black southern baptist preacher who taught me about modesty, purity and compassion.

When I was 13 years old, my whole world was coming apart, that black man protected me from preditors, and reminded me that this moment of darkness could define who I became or who I didn't. I didn't.

Now, these were the pinacles of compassion and love. Sadly...very sadly...these creatures are as rare in my lifetime as double rainbows.

You could learn morality from a christian, but it could literally take a lifetime to find such a being amongst the others...it's the human condition.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté sahasranama


I hear what you are saying, but honestly I don't care that much what Christians believe. Let them, it's not our problem really.

I think this is most notable... let them do as they need to do and for us, the notion of indifference is the best tool.

And if I may, with your permission, let me offer a different ending to your sentence - you mention " it's not our problem really ". It is also not our reality . Their reality is of a different orientation.

praṇām

[atanu]

To be fair to him, one would probably get kicked off of HDF for saying "believe in Jesus or you'll go to hell." But yes, I've noticed that evangelicals will rarely start out by telling a person that he's headed for hell. They will refuse to answer this question and instead default to "only God can judge people." ---

Namaste Sanjay

Jaggin has answered and acknowledged in the thread Christianity is Simpler that an element of crusade entered Christianity that Jesus never would condone. That I find exceptional.

Om Namah Shivaya

[sanjaya]

[/list]I hear what you are saying, but honestly I don't care that much what Christians believe. Let them, it's not our problem really.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support a person's right to believe whatever he wishes, no matter how evil. If a Christian wants to continue in the mistaken belief that Hindus are going to hell but can manage to treat us with basic civility, then I have no problem with his belief. If he doesn't try to convert me, I'll even be friends with him. The problem is that Christians don't treat us with civility, and they try to convert us to their religion. All of this is because of their fundamental belief in our condemnation.

But that isn't my point here. My point is that when Christians do try to convert us, they actively hide this belief. Again I ask: what sort of religion obscures doctrines that they know prospective converts might find objectionable? This obfuscation of the true beliefs of their religion is, in my opinion, an implicit admission that they know something is wrong with this belief.

[sanjaya]

Namaste Sanjay

Jaggin has answered and acknowledged in the thread Christianity is Simpler that an element of crusade entered Christianity that Jesus never would condone. That I find exceptional.

Om Namah Shivaya

Interesting. I wonder how this "element of crusade" manifests itself in modern Christianity. Perhaps in the Christians' obsession with American "hot button" political issues? Or perhaps with the missionaries, who regard themselves as spiritual crusaders?

[Sahasranama]

@atanu

They don't just convert Hindus. They want to convert everyone. Here in the Netherlands they come to your door, they want to talk to you on the street.

People generally think it's annoying, but no one is actually afraid of them. You can have fun with them too, ask them questions that will confuse them. It's good for laughs. Don't take them serious.

@Nayasurya

In USA this problem looks much worse than in the rest of the world. It's definitely wrong what those Christians are doing. But it's the stupidity of certain people. I have met some people like that in the Netherlands, but they are rare in this country.

I don't know the situation in the USA, is it hard for your children to find friends that will not try to convert them?

I have heard from my sister that this problem is worse in South Africa too. She was doing an internship there and her employer told her, "you are not a christian and therefore you have no morals and can lie all you want."

I guess I am fortunate to live in the Netherland where these things don't happen that often.

[Ekanta]

Jehovas witness used to come to my place and try to convert me. If I was not in a hurry I used to talk with them about all different things. At start they thought I was hooked, but after a while they became perplexed by my questions and finally left me alone instead. I remember when I asked them where they were when in deep sleep... they became quite angry at this question since they could not answer.

[NayaSurya]

Because my niece was converted my name and address were put on the actively pursue list they have. But, because we are inside a gated community they could not come to my door. No religion can.

Instead they began mass mailing me to my home. Finally, I printed off my favorite picture of Siva with my favorite verse from the Tirukural.

I can't imagine what happened when she opened up that letter to face Siva. I wrote on the sidelines. "Just holding Beloved Siva in a picture blesses you...I pray for your heart and mind to become opened to the Truth."

She could have torn up the picture, but she can never tear up the Truth.

This immediately stopped the mailings.

Siva works miracles even on the mundane.

I'm sure somewhere out there, the JW probably scratched me off that
"actively convert" list.:p

[Sahasranama]

We have a sticker on the door, "no religious preachers or salespeople at the door."

http://nietaandedeur.nl/index.php?nav=0

[BryonMorrigan]

Jehovas witness used to come to my place and try to convert me. If I was not in a hurry I used to talk with them about all different things. At start they thought I was hooked, but after a while they became perplexed by my questions and finally left me alone instead. I remember when I asked them where they were when in deep sleep... they became quite angry at this question since they could not answer.

My wife has forbidden me from engaging in these kinds of conversations any more. She's afraid that we will get a "reputation" in the neighborhood! But yes, I love arguing with Christians, especially the uneducated ones that come door to door knocking, as they are often so easily riled up and enraged when confronted with someone who is quite well aware of their bloody history.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I have had this experience of being approached by Christians, but not all types of Christians. 'They' quickly become 'all' over the course of a conversation and I believe this is an incorrect assumption.


Many of my friends are Christians and they only bring-up religion when it is appropriate to the conversation, then we talk. They will offer a parable from the bible and I will then offer something from the upaniṣad-s and we compare and contrast the wisdom - the similarities and differences. Through this method I am able to offer them the sanātana dharma view without force feeding.

They are quite interested in the knowledge - the conversations are not debates but done in a spirit of understanding. Some pursue the conversation further.
I have one Christian friend that I have known for over twenty years. He asks very good questions and likes to know the sanātana dharma view on various subjects, yet he is quite satisfied with his beliefs he likes to hear other views. Why ? Because he has matured and knows there are multiple ways to view the truth.

Now the thing they do not 'get' quickly is why all the gods we hear about in hinduism ( sanātana dharma ). This is easliy explained. There is only one (ekaṃ) and I offer this passage that seems to resonate with them. It is the following from the from the ṛg veda I.164.46, and ṛṣi dīrghatamas.

He informs us:
indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān |
ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ ||
The key words here are ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā
ekaṃ = eka = one, single
sad = sat सत्= that which really is , entity or existence , essence , the true being or really existent; in vedānta this is the self-existent or Supreme, Brahman
viprā = vipra विप्र- a ṛṣi, sage, a brahmin ( the knowers of Truth)
bahudhā बहुधा-variously; in many ways or parts or forms or directions , manifoldly
divyaḥ = divya दिव्य divine , heavenly , celestial , the divine beings; deva-s
Hence this says, Truth (sad - existence , essence, Brahman) is One ( ekaṃ ), the sages (vipra - ṛṣi-s) call it variously (bahudhā).

He mentions the 'divyaḥ' as indra, mitra, varuṇa, agni, etc. that these are some of the names the ṛṣi may use to describe the Supreme i.e. He is known by various (bahudhā) names and forms.

Now there have been situations where I ended up in a debate and chose not to pursue the conversation. Why so? Because I knew no good could come from it and the person was set on convincing vs. discussing. But I must say it is not all Christians that take this approach. Why so ?
Because there are so many 'flavors' and I have not sampled or conversed with all types:

Adventist Family like Jehovah's Witnesses & British Israelism
Baptist Family - Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc.
Christian Science- the New Thought segment, and Christian Scientists
Communal Family - The Jesus People, Twin Oaks, etc
Eastern Orthodox - Russian, Greek, Serbian, etc.
European Free-Church Family Amish, Brethren, Mennonites, Quakers, Shakers, etc.
Holiness Family - Christian and Missionary Alliance, Church of the Nazarene, etc.
Independent Fundamentalist Family - Plymouth Brethren, Fundamentalists, etc.
Latter-day Saints
Lutheran Family- Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran church - Missouri Synod, etc.
Messianic Judaism i.e.Jews For Jesus,
Pentecostal Family - Assemblies of God, Church of God
Pietist-Methodist Family - Scandinavian Pietism, United Methodist Church, other Methodists
Reformed-Presbyterian Family - Presbyterian churches, Congregational, United Church of Christ
Western Liturgical Family - Anglican Communion; Roman Catholics including the Latin Church and the Eastern Rite Churches; Old Catholicism; and the Ukranian Catholic Church praṇām

[BryonMorrigan]

Funny thing about the "Not all Christians are like that..." conversation:

Yesterday, I was in a bad mood, as I was trying to do a paper on something really boring for my doctorate in psychology, and the kids were being very loud and disturbing. I mentioned this on FaceBook, and my Christian friend looked up a passage in the Gita to post in response to put me in a better mood.

So yes, occasionally you run into a good person who happens to be a Christian. It's just so often that the people who are acting from their identity as a "Christian" first, rather than a "Good Person" first, are the ones you seem to encounter on a daily basis.

[Ramakrishna]

Because my niece was converted my name and address were put on the actively pursue list they have. But, because we are inside a gated community they could not come to my door. No religion can.

Instead they began mass mailing me to my home. Finally, I printed off my favorite picture of Siva with my favorite verse from the Tirukural.

I can't imagine what happened when she opened up that letter to face Siva. I wrote on the sidelines. "Just holding Beloved Siva in a picture blesses you...I pray for your heart and mind to become opened to the Truth."

She could have torn up the picture, but she can never tear up the Truth.

This immediately stopped the mailings.

Siva works miracles even on the mundane.

I'm sure somewhere out there, the JW probably scratched me off that
"actively convert" list.:p

Namaste NayaSurya,

How wonderful! Now I know what to do if I am ever in a situation like that! :D

Jai Sri Krishna

[atanu]

Jehovas witness used to come to my place and try to convert me. If I was not in a hurry I used to talk with them about all different things. At start they thought I was hooked, but after a while they became perplexed by my questions and finally left me alone instead. I remember when I asked them where they were when in deep sleep... they became quite angry at this question since they could not answer.

Namaste Ekanta

:) This is hilarious. Isn't it. But this is only to be expected. The poor fellows have been told only that which they should know.

There is an important story. Ashtavakra's father was killed by a Brahmin sage of Janaka's court by drowing in a river. The Brahmin in Janaka's court debated with others under condition that the defeated would be drowned. In this way, he had drowned quite a few other Brahmins. Ashtavakra wanted a revenge and so challenged and actually defeated the court Brahmin. He however, forgave the defeated one. The court Brahmin then revealed to Ashtavakra that Ashtavakra's father was not killed but was invited to a Yagna that Sea Lord Varuna was conducting. 9 priests were required for the Yagna and Ashtavakra's father was the ninth.

What we see is not the full story ever.

I have speculated for some time whether Mandukya Up. like knowledge exist in Koran or Bible or not. And Lo. Such knowledge is there but more surprising is the fact that conventional christian and muslim teachers present only gross physical meaning out of those verses. At the same time I have come across poems by some christians and some muslims who have written how a soul meets the beloved in deep sleep.

This knowledge of Pragnya Ghana of deep sleep (shushupti) is actually too much. One can manipulate the consciousness and do many good or horrible tasks. But most people in western shores being of the James Bond Hero and/or James Bond villain mentality, it would probably be too big a risk. In this yuga, the hero is one who can dominate the world -- who can steal by outwitting others, who can physically destroy opponents, who is very rich etc etc. The popularity of this genre of film/music/literature (Batman, Superman, Spiderman and what not) hints at what the common psyche today is.

In Yoga Vasista there are stories as to how Vishnu, who maintains the Universe, hides the truth till opportune time. I think every thing fits to the Master plan. Self will want Self when Self wants such to happen. Desirelessness is the prime criteria. Till desirelessness is attained, Shiva just sleeps with closed eyes and lets Maya play. And in this world, immature will always try to dominate the mature with ignorance. We smile.


Om Namah Shivaya

[ozarkwriter]

The fact is, Christianity has no discernible effect on the way Christians live their lives. There's no evidence for this belief that faith in Christianity is necessary for personal morality.


I'm sorry that this is the case today. This wasn't the case in the early years of Christianity and it still isn't the case in some small communities of believers yet today.
99% of what is being promoted by "Christians" around the world in the last 1700 years doesn't not resemble the life and teachings of Christ at all. Anything that is not consistent with the sermon on the mount and the beatitudes cannot truthfully be called Christian.

[sanjaya]

I'm sorry that this is the case today. This wasn't the case in the early years of Christianity and it still isn't the case in some small communities of believers yet today.

I'm not so sure about that. I can't comment on early Christians, since all we have to go on is the ante-Nicene fathers. As for these "small communities of believers," who are we talking about? Yes, there are cases of Christians in Muslim majority nations who get persecuted and respond with forgiveness. There are also Christians in the Northern part of India (Nagaland, for example) who are terrorists. Again I have to stand by my earlier comment: Christianity seems to have no discernible effect on the morality of people. There are good Christians and bad Christians. To me this simply points to the impotence of the Christian religion to effect any real moral change.


99% of what is being promoted by "Christians" around the world in the last 1700 years doesn't not resemble the life and teachings of Christ at all. Anything that is not consistent with the sermon on the mount and the beatitudes cannot truthfully be called Christian.

Yes, I agree that the sermon on the mount is good and compatible with Hindu teaching. It's the rest of the Bible that's the problem. As far as the "false Christians" (or whatever we choose to call them) go, how long are we going to excuse Christianity by dismissing the practices of its followers? It seems to me that when one regards oneself as saved and others and damned, it will result in a superiority complex. And we can see that this is usually what happens. How can a genuinely good religion result in so much bad behavior? With the exception of Islam, no other religion in the world has resulted in so much immorality (judged even by a Christian standard) as Christianity. In the face of such evidence, why are we trying to hold on to some belief in the genuine goodness of the Christian religion? As Lord Jesus himself said, a tree can be judged by its fruits. I think Jesus would disavow most of his followers, the religion they've created in his name, and the Bible itself. I really don't see any way that we can say that Christianity has many redeeming virtues.

I'm not trying to bash this religion, I only wish to approach things logically.

[saidevo]

Vegetarian Bible originally?

Atanu is wondering, "I have speculated for some time whether Mandukya Up. like knowledge exist in Koran or Bible or not."

Here is an interesting article that attempts to trace the Hindu origins of Judaism; says that originally it was only a vegetarian covenant; and that the later animal sacrfices, meat eating and slavery were due to the corrupted teachings of the original scriptures in the name of revision by the rich and powerful.

THE HINDU AND VEGETARIAN ORIGINS OF JUDAISM
http://aumshalom.com/hindu.htm
http://aumshalom.com/hindu1.htm

[Ao]

I think every thing fits to the Master plan. Self will want Self when Self wants such to happen. Desirelessness is the prime criteria. Till desirelessness is attained, Shiva just sleeps with closed eyes and lets Maya play. And in this world, immature will always try to dominate the mature with ignorance. We smile.


Om Namah Shivaya

Beautifully put!

And kudos to Sanjaya for his irrefutable logic.:logic:

[Kumar_Das]

My whole point of this thread is that Hindus don't need everything to be shoved at their faces for them to accept and follow blindly. God, some who focus upon and/or consider as Vishnu, doesn't "throw" things from "heaven" down to earth dictating us every single thing that we are supposed to follow. The Ramayana appears as mythology no less, yes. But as simple as it may be, it is an epic of morality even though it belongs to a certain phase of time. And nothing is explictly stated like "do this or this, because you have to, or else Narayana will get upset and cast you into Hell-Fire". Instead we use analytical and critical thinking to evaluate whatever it has to offer us regarding morality.

Of all literature, it is the height of human morality. It talks about so many things on so many levels but presents them in a story format. Even a person who doesnt consider Rama to having existed or as an incarnation of God either because he doesn't consider Vishnu as God or doesn't believe in God still can see the wisdom within it. It is so simple, almost child-like yet as a literature is unrivalled and stands out apart from others for the value of its content.



I have met kind, loving Christians in my lifetime...three were like Fathers to me. A mormon elder, catholic priest and the last was a black southern baptist preacher who taught me about modesty, purity and compassion.

When I was 13 years old, my whole world was coming apart, that black man protected me from preditors, and reminded me that this moment of darkness could define who I became or who I didn't. I didn't.

Now, these were the pinacles of compassion and love. Sadly...very sadly...these creatures are as rare in my lifetime as double rainbows.


Yeah I prefer xtians over muzzies lol. There are more good individuals amongst the whole of Christian population than that of the muzzies.