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BryonMorrigan
31 May 2010, 10:48 AM
I was thinking about the objections to god/goddess depictions on tattoos and shoes, and was wondering what the general view is regarding depictions on t-shirts. I noticed that this company (based in the USA, and I believe affiliated with ISKCON) has a bunch of t-shirts with them:

http://www.krishnaculture.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=KC&Category_Code=C-M-DT

In my mind, I don't see how they are any different from a tattoo (in terms of becoming dirty...). (i.e., you'd probably still wear it while going to the bathroom; you might get it really dirty; etc.)

Any thoughts?

BryonMorrigan
31 May 2010, 10:53 AM
Or how about this peculiar pair of jeans that I just found by accident on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/TRUE-RELIGION-JEANS-BILLY-BLACK-40-W-HINDU-MAA-KALI-/170492633011?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_CSA_MC_Jeans&hash=item27b2271fb3

Kumar_Das
31 May 2010, 12:28 PM
Namaste Bryonji,

Images, words at the end of the day express a meaning. Lord Shiva destroys all and none can ever destroy Him. He is the last one standing. Always Eternal and having His Supreme Dominion over all others.

But as a sign of respect we try to treat whatever representations of the deities properly.

The icons of the deities attract people to worship. Bringing them towards the act of reverence collectively.

If these icons are not respected then we cannot acquire spiritual progress.

I agree with you. It follows through shoes, tattoos or shirt doesnt make a difference.

Religion is not a fashion statement.

Most Hindus wont wear clothing with images of the deities.

sambya
31 May 2010, 01:01 PM
well , iskcon deotees who wear t-shirts with pictures of krishna on it , do not wear them to bathroom . at least they are strictly instructed not to do so .

personally for me t-shirt would be less offensive than a tattoo or a pic on shoe .

strictly speaking respect or disrecpect are states of mind and one can wear such a t shirt with respect also . like in iskcon a picture of krishna is never painted on a lower garment .

this is a kind of respect . it all depends on how and what you wear .

but overall this thing is very western and hippie .........has nothing to do with indians .

even among modern generations of indians you can hardly come across someone wearing these things for daily use . although the symbol ' OM' is freqently worn and tattooed . that is also another topic to be considered since OM is nothing but god himself .

BryonMorrigan
31 May 2010, 02:03 PM
I have to say though...that this one cracks me up:

http://www.cafepress.com/esangha.17969336

Not that I'd wear it...but it's still funny.

(For anyone unfamiliar with the satire here...some Christians in this country have been known to wear clothing with the slogan "Jesus is my home-boy.")

NayaSurya
31 May 2010, 02:32 PM
The image of what I have seen people do and wear should probably be kept in my head and not let others have to suffer with it.

For me, those shirts would never be worn. Those images are so precious.

yajvan
31 May 2010, 04:23 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté

the Supreme is vimala विमल - stainless , spotless, , clean , bright , pure.

If t-shirts are worn, or tattoo's or other garb this does not reduce this Being's greatness in any way shape or form.



praṇām

Sahasranama
31 May 2010, 05:38 PM
I don't this is a big problem, but there were incidence where companies put images of Hindu gods on slippers, shoes, boxer shorts, panties, toillet seats which is downright insulting.

Kumar_Das
31 May 2010, 06:58 PM
I don't this is a big problem, but there were incidence where companies put images of Hindu gods on slippers, shoes, boxer shorts, panties, toillet seats which is downright insulting.

there were?

BryonMorrigan
31 May 2010, 07:43 PM
there were?

http://news.iskcon.org/node/2599

yajvan
31 May 2010, 08:12 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté
We look at some shoes or t-shirt or tattoo and see the Lord. But who is appalled? We are, because we do not wish to see the Lord in these conditions or constraints as we hold Him in the highest regard.


Yet the truth is this... He is the ink, the cloth, the idea to do this. He is the space that allows this to occur, he is the color of the paper, he is the electrons of the web site that allows one to view these photo's. He is the intellect that allows you to choose if you are mad or sad. He is the emotion of joy or sadness that may accompany your viewing.
He is the saint or the sinner that may have sold or benefited from the transaction of any of the products offered.


He knows what occurs - there is not even one blade of grass that bends that He is not aware of. He is Supreme, stainless.


praṇām

saidevo
31 May 2010, 10:08 PM
namaste.

In the Hindu tradition and culture, gold is not worn in a form of jewellery or embellishment below the loins; even kings did not do it in the olden days.

In many temple sanctums the curtain used to hide the deity while alaMkAram--decoration, is being done, often bears the image of a God. Some unscrupulous priests would even wipe their hands off oil or other stains on it, and in due course the curtain would look soiled and dirty. Even otherwise, the curtains, however ornamental it is as in some ViShNu temples, would eventually become dirty due to atmospheric pollution and dust and would require washing.

My take is that it might be alright to wear god images on our outer-garments such as T-shirts, so long as faith and respect are the reasons for it. Where they are not so, as in the case of shoes and toilet seats, I think we need to take exception.

Sahasranama
01 June 2010, 04:24 AM
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa111900a.htm

BryonMorrigan
01 June 2010, 07:23 AM
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa111900a.htm

...and yet no one was threatened with beheading, or murdered in the street.

I think the important thing with these issues is to do as the various Hindu organizations have done so far: They made the companies aware that what they were doing was disrespectful...and for the most part, they appear to have apologized and moved on.

In the West, most peoples' only real exposure to Hinduism is in movies like "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom," which are obviously extremely disrespectful and prejudiced. (* I believe even Spielberg is embarrassed by the movie now...as he really didn't know what he was doing at the time...basically imparting a dualist Jesus/Satan mythology onto Shiva/Kali...which is of course, ludicrous.) Usually, when someone points out that what they are doing is wrong, they apologize and try to change it.

Now, compare that to the recent issues with Muslims and depictions of the "Prophet Muhammad." The Muslims have actually killed people over this issue, and yet people continue to get MORE offensive to Islam. Sometimes, it just pays to ask nicely.

Kumar_Das
01 June 2010, 07:36 AM
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa111900a.htm



Hindu deities have been deposed to the **** pot! When in July 2000, a proactive US Hindu organization protested against Hindu gods and goddesses being emblazoned on footwear, little did they know they are yet to see the nadir.

Holy **** Pot!

It all started on November 16, 2000, when the 'watchdog group' American Hindu Anti-Defamation Coalition (AHAD) discovered that sanitary ware manufacturer Sittin' Pretty Design (http://hinduism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.sittinprettydesign.com/) were selling toilet seats that sported images of Hindu deities Ganesha and Kali. This Seattle-based firm sells these products under their 'Sacred Seats' product line, primarily through its Web site by targeting wholesalers and special orders.


the person who wrote the article is anti-Hindu themselves.

why the usage of the word "nadir" and such choice of words as "the hindu deities have been deposed to the **** pot"?! holy **** pot?

Kumar_Das
01 June 2010, 07:48 AM
...and yet no one was threatened with beheading, or murdered in the street.

I think the important thing with these issues is to do as the various Hindu organizations have done so far: They made the companies aware that what they were doing was disrespectful...and for the most part, they appear to have apologized and moved on.

In the West, most peoples' only real exposure to Hinduism is in movies like "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom," which are obviously extremely disrespectful and prejudiced. (* I believe even Spielberg is embarrassed by the movie now...as he really didn't know what he was doing at the time...basically imparting a dualist Jesus/Satan mythology onto Shiva/Kali...which is of course, ludicrous.) Usually, when someone points out that what they are doing is wrong, they apologize and try to change it.

Now, compare that to the recent issues with Muslims and depictions of the "Prophet Muhammad." The Muslims have actually killed people over this issue, and yet people continue to get MORE offensive to Islam. Sometimes, it just pays to ask nicely.

My advise to fellow Hindus is.

Lets calm down. Dont let our emotions get to our heads.

Everything that happens, happens for a reason, and the reason of reasons is God.

So it is happening by God's will.

In every situation we have to take the best out of it. Are we weak enough to allow ignorant and demoniac people to get the best out of us?

They want us to react. When we react, they will take that and do further damage upon us.

So we must stay calm. We must find other ways of taking revenge.

Like using this as an opportunity to educate people.

We must beat them on an intellectual platform.

This is the age of Kali. The world is at its most degenerate.

Remember our deities are not fragile. We do not have to fight to protect them. It is they who protect us.

sambya
01 June 2010, 09:24 AM
i feel wearing things like a tshirt with an image of god on it on certain occasions is not bad .

like wearing a tshirt with a pic of krishna on it , to the temple on janmashtami .

yajvan
01 June 2010, 08:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté kumar das




Remember our deities are not fragile. We do not have to fight to protect them. It is they who protect us.

I see what you say, and there is no doubt the devatā are supportive. Let me also offer this if I may. Kṛṣṇa-ji says the following¹:
by yajña you sustain the devā-s ( devān) and they will sustain you (bhāva or bhāvaṃ-feel an affection for + yam to raise , extend or hold ~sustain~) .
By sustaining one another you will attain to the highest good or benefit ( or para sreyas¹ ).


As we are instructed there is a symbiotic relationship that is established.

praṇām

Bhāgavad gītā Chapter 3, 11th śloka
śreyas - more splendid or beautiful , more excellent or distinguished , superior , preferable , better , better than

Shanti
09 June 2010, 07:18 PM
I certainly feel depictions of Hindu deities on toilet seats, shoes, etc is disgraceful. I don't really see have any issues with it on shirts as long as they are respectful images. I don't bow down and pray to tshirts, and from what I understand, pictures and statues only become "holy" once there is prayer and reverence towards them as then the spiritual energy is there.

There has also been a lot of controversy over dolls and the like for children that are images of Hanuman and Rama. This may be the unpopular opinion here, but I think they have been great for my boys. They have little Hanuman and Rama dolls that they adore and sleep with. When other kids in the neighborhood talk about wanting to be like Superman or Spiderman, my kids gush about Hanuman and Rama and Lakshmana. They know much more about the Ramayana and Mahabharata then most kids their age (5 and 3). They know that Rama is an avatar of Lord Vishnu (not just some toy or movie character) and they admire his courage and bravery and they know that Rama and Sita are always in the heart of Hanuman and admire his strength and devotion to Lord Rama. When their cousin goes on and on about Anakin in Star Wars, they go on and on about how Rama battled with Raavana to save Sita.

Again I digress, I think to a certain extent these things can bring about feelings of love and remembrance of one's beliefs.

Sahasranama
14 February 2011, 01:25 PM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Outrage-over-sale-of-slippers-with-impression-of-Hindu-deity/articleshow/7480412.cms

Ramakrishna
14 February 2011, 11:51 PM
Namaste,

I doubt I would ever wear one, but I can understand if some people would wear a t-shirt of a deity if they show it respect and keep it clean ad such. But there is absolutely no reason to put images of deities on slippers, unless you are looking to disrespect the faith. I wonder what the intentions were of the makers of these slippers.

Jai Sri Ram

Lokavidu
15 February 2011, 12:59 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté
We look at some shoes or t-shirt or tattoo and see the Lord. But who is appalled? We are, because we do not wish to see the Lord in these conditions or constraints as we hold Him in the highest regard.


Yet the truth is this... He is the ink, the cloth, the idea to do this. He is the space that allows this to occur, he is the color of the paper, he is the electrons of the web site that allows one to view these photo's. He is the intellect that allows you to choose if you are mad or sad. He is the emotion of joy or sadness that may accompany your viewing.
He is the saint or the sinner that may have sold or benefited from the transaction of any of the products offered.


He knows what occurs - there is not even one blade of grass that bends that He is not aware of. He is Supreme, stainless.


praṇām


I like this statement... thanks for sharing

BryonMorrigan
15 February 2011, 08:50 AM
Namaste,

I doubt I would ever wear one, but I can understand if some people would wear a t-shirt of a deity if they show it respect and keep it clean ad such. But there is absolutely no reason to put images of deities on slippers, unless you are looking to disrespect the faith. I wonder what the intentions were of the makers of these slippers.

Jai Sri Ram

Is there less of a concern for this sort of thing among Shaktas though? I only wonder, because I watched this documentary about a Kali Temple in Canada (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ1VnKOAtjE), and it appears that nearly all of the people in the video are wearing t-shirts with pictures of Kali Maa on them.

mohanty
15 February 2011, 12:11 PM
Namaste,

I doubt I would ever wear one, but I can understand if some people would wear a t-shirt of a deity if they show it respect and keep it clean ad such. But there is absolutely no reason to put images of deities on slippers, unless you are looking to disrespect the faith. I wonder what the intentions were of the makers of these slippers.

Jai Sri Ram

I share this view. Slippers is a bit too much, especially since in India touching people with your feet is considered an insult.

I guess there is a line to be drawn somewhere here. Some liberties, taken with respect, are okay, but some go too far. I mean... deities images on toilet seats is definitely too much:

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa111900a.htm

Eastern Mind
15 February 2011, 12:24 PM
Vannakkam: I tend to side with the view that such things from outsiders come out of their ignorance of our faith not out of a deliberate attempt to insult. Usually, once the item in question is pointed out, the company withdraws production with a sincere apology.

For what its worth, when I was in Mauritius, Murugan on T-shirts was very common. Perhaps that has changed in the last 30 years. I don't know. I was even given one as a parting gift. So there is a cultural context involved as well. Within some areas or forms of SD, it is far more common. So what's insulting to one of us may well be a sign or respect or religiousity to another.

Aum Namasivaya

mohanty
15 February 2011, 12:35 PM
Vannakkam: I tend to side with the view that such things from outsiders come out of their ignorance of our faith not out of a deliberate attempt to insult. Usually, once the item in question is pointed out, the company withdraws production with a sincere apology.

For what its worth, when I was in Mauritius, Murugan on T-shirts was very common. Perhaps that has changed in the last 30 years. I don't know. I was even given one as a parting gift. So there is a cultural context involved as well. Within some areas or forms of SD, it is far more common. So what's insulting to one of us may well be a sign or respect or religiousity to another.

Aum Namasivaya

Perhaps you are right about the clothing, but what about the toilet seats? That couldn't possibly be because of ignorance. Would they ever put Christ on a toilet seat?

Well... atheists might. :rolleyes:

BryonMorrigan
15 February 2011, 12:41 PM
Would they ever put Christ on a toilet seat?

Nah. They just think he appears there by magic.

http://www.ktnv.com/story/10841809/las-vegas-woman-sees-jesus-on-toilet-seat?redirected=true (http://www.ktnv.com/story/10841809/las-vegas-woman-sees-jesus-on-toilet-seat?redirected=true)

:D

mohanty
15 February 2011, 12:43 PM
Nah. They just think he appears there by magic.

http://www.ktnv.com/story/10841809/las-vegas-woman-sees-jesus-on-toilet-seat?redirected=true (http://www.ktnv.com/story/10841809/las-vegas-woman-sees-jesus-on-toilet-seat?redirected=true)

:D

Okay. I rest my case. :)

Eastern Mind
15 February 2011, 12:47 PM
Vannakkam Mohanty:

Well, non religious people are pretty steeped in ignorance, not just the disrespectful use of the word, more just the as in 'stupid' sense.

I haven's seen Christ on one, but they did put Mary there.

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl-toilet.htm

I think we have to be careful in our assumptions sometimes. For example. I taught for too many years and kids with ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder) were often misunderstood as just plain bad kids before a correct diagnosis came. I try to look beyond an event and study the actual cause. There is just such a wide variety of cultural take on what a bathroom should look like. Take swimwear as another example. Having been to an all inclusive resort at Dominican Republic attended by cultures with no problem with public nudity, and the beach beside Tiruchendur, I can personally vouch for a wide variety of norms.

Aum Namasivaya

mohanty
15 February 2011, 12:55 PM
Vannakkam Mohanty:

Well, non religious people are pretty steeped in innorance, not just the disrespectful use of the word, more just the as in 'stupid' sense.

I haven's seen Christ, but they did put Mary there.

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl-toilet.htm

I think we have to be careful in our assumptions sometimes. For example. I taught for too many years and kids with ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder) were often misunderstood as just plain bad kids before a correct diagnosis came. I try to look beyond an event and study the actual cause. There is just such a wide variety of cultural take on what a bathroom should look like. Take swimwear as another example. Having been to an all inclusive resort at Dominican Republic attended by cultures with no problem with public nudity, and the beach beside Tiruchendur, I can personally vouch for a wide variety of norms.

Aum Namasivaya

I guess you do have a point. Must learn to be less attached.

Ramakrishna
15 February 2011, 07:07 PM
Namaste Bryon,


Is there less of a concern for this sort of thing among Shaktas though? I only wonder, because I watched this documentary about a Kali Temple in Canada (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ1VnKOAtjE), and it appears that nearly all of the people in the video are wearing t-shirts with pictures of Kali Maa on them.

Interesting, it could be more common and a generally accepted practice with Shaktas then. I didn't watch the documentary yet, but it's loading right now.


Nah. They just think he appears there by magic.

http://www.ktnv.com/story/10841809/las-vegas-woman-sees-jesus-on-toilet-seat?redirected=true (http://www.ktnv.com/story/10841809/las-vegas-woman-sees-jesus-on-toilet-seat?redirected=true)



:laugh: That reminds me of the time a woman saw Jesus in her grilled cheese sandwich. There have actually been lots of stuff like this. I guess that's the Christian way of seeing the divine in things!

http://cheese-wire.com/index.html/2009/04/23/jesus-seen-in-cheese-sandwich/

Jai Sri Ram

Eastern Mind
10 May 2011, 04:52 PM
Vannakkam: And the issue rises again. Hate to resurrect an old thread, but... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13347763

Aum Namasivaya

TheOne
10 May 2011, 06:18 PM
Why do people become so infuriated? The true idolatry is when one thinks an image is alone God.

I could draw a picture of something offensive and label it "Vishnu" would that be Vishnu? No it wouldn't, or maybe it would. Because God is everywhere, playing the parts of good and bad, making this divine play exciting except sometimes people become too drawn into the play to realize it is such.

Arjuni
10 May 2011, 08:20 PM
Namasté, all.

TheOne, I understand your point, and it's a very good one.
I offer up another perspective from what is certainly a less enlightened point of view...

I don't know if this is true of that particular fashion designer, but many folks feel it's acceptable to use Hindu god/dess images as decoration because they're not "real" deities and since Hinduism is not really a "religion," just a set of quirky, antiquated practices from which it's perfectly acceptable to borrow the colourful, if primitive, iconography.

Demanding respect for God or even ourselves is all a form of ego, it's true, and also foolish is the idea that an image of God automatically equals God. But every time an image like this is made, it just seems to reinforce the mistaken view that Sanatana Dharma is a sort of fun hobby, rather than a legitimate faith held by millions of people who might not enjoy watching a fashion model parade around in their Goddess.

We could indeed withdraw from the world and say that ignorance doesn't matter, that the leela of this world is simply to be observed and not taken seriously - but until we reach perfect moksha, we and other seekers have only this world in which to live. Should we not try to correct ignorance where we find it - if not for our own sakes, then for others who may not be so "elevated" in their understanding? Is it not better to try for a more noble world, in which the forms of God are treated with respect?

I realise that one bikini will not make or break the human race's opinion of Sanatana Dharma. But as a general rule, if we say nothing when the Devas - and by extension, the religion and all who practice it - are made to look common or even ridiculous, then ignorance remains. And ignorance can be harmful when it is found in those who educate the young, or who set policy at every level from the humblest office to the highest ranks of government. Art (and yes, even fashion) influences ideas, and those who hold mistaken ideas can make it harder to practice the Hindu faith in this world.

Not everything involving an image is a battle, no, and becoming enraged over this sort of thing is counter-productive. But not everything that seems minor should be forgotten, either. I think it was Sahasranama who once wrote on this forum, "Stop eating our gods, please." I'd certainly like to see a world in which fashion models stop sitting on them, too...

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Water
10 May 2011, 10:26 PM
Should we not try to correct ignorance where we find it - if not for our own sakes, then for others who may not be so "elevated" in their understanding? Is it not better to try for a more noble world, in which the forms of God are treated with respect?

Not to be dismissive....
At least the general "intent" that you can assume from most of these incursions are on the side of, "this is a beautiful and powerful image" rather than outright disrespect as you suggest. I don't believe anyone is trying to intentionally reduce the viability of any religion... yet.

The latest incursion is a bit unfortunately placed, though....

It is good to see some push-back, however the more aggressive the push-back (burning the flag? Really?) the more aggressive the incursions will become.

On a side note, the shirt above is like... 20 years old, but they keep reprinting it because of it's popularity....

PARAM
11 May 2011, 12:01 PM
By making such products Anti Hindus want Business within Anti Hindus.

I think Images on garments like T-Shirths are ok, but not on inner wears.

Shoes ant toilets should not be made like this, objection against them is justified.

yajvan
11 May 2011, 01:34 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~
namasté



the Supreme is vimala विमल - stainless , spotless, , clean , bright , pure.

If t-shirts are worn, or tattoo's or other garb this does not reduce this Being's greatness in any way shape or form.

Note that what I offered also suggests one has a good direction ( diś) on what is life supporting, uplifting vs. what is fasionable.

praṇām

Ganeshprasad
11 May 2011, 03:13 PM
Pranam

I am infuriated not by those bigoted, ignorant fools who go about deliberately inflaming the sentiments of Hindus, for cheep publicity, to make their mark on the world stage, but by those who intellectualise or philosophise, that make the victim look like fanatics, Hindus have every right to protest at such despicable deliberate disregards, of our worship able deities.

Jai Shree Krishna

Water
11 May 2011, 04:14 PM
I quite literally demand someone come up with a condemning statement that the individuals in the article above literally decided to use that art work in that position because they wanted to outright disrespect Lakshmi Maa and, as a clear result, are "Anti-hindu."

Until that is produced, the comments above are nothing but the fanatical abrahamic "eye for an eye" justified with the same concepts from Hinduism mangled into disrespectful outbursts.

It is quite respectful to become disappointed in the behavior of another and show it.

It is quite the opposite to wrathfully declare war against a clueless opponent that can inevitably be enriched with knowledge (anti-ignorance) rather than be attacked with equally abysmal behavior.

Ganeshprasad
11 May 2011, 04:54 PM
Pranam

If anyone thought, that so called art to be worn where the sun don‘t shine , was respect for Maa Laxmi, that individual is hardly in a position to ask, let alone demand a statement .

Jai Shree Krishna

Water
11 May 2011, 05:14 PM
Pranam

If anyone thought, that so called art to be worn where the sun don‘t shine , was respect for Maa Laxmi, that individual is hardly in a position to ask, let alone demand a statement .

Jai Shree Krishna


My dear friend and your illogical, aggressive knee-jerk retorts.

You do know two piece bathing suits are decorated with a variety of beautiful pictures, right? Do you know I have personally seen butterflies on such garments?

I am unaware of anyone that has interpreted that as the demand for the universal extinction of the butterfly ........

Cultures surely have different understandings. The ignorance in suggesting the clothing designers are personally intending insult is commendable.

Eastern Mind
11 May 2011, 05:47 PM
Vannakkam: And who has more right to judge: insultee, or insulter?

I couldn't tell you how many times I heard a schoolyard bully say, "But 'we' were just fooling around," as the victim was off bawling quietly, fearful of worsening the situation.

Update - Company apology and withdrawal of offending materials. http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/report_australian-swimwear-label-firm-apologises-for-carrying-hindu-goddess-images-on-bikini_1541116

Aum Namasivaya

Water
11 May 2011, 07:34 PM
I couldn't tell you how many times I heard a schoolyard bully say, "But 'we' were just fooling around," as the victim was off bawling quietly, fearful of worsening the situation.

This is where extremes put us in much trouble.... One extreme for the insultee is to do nothing and accept the situation - as you pointed out. The other extreme is to beget violence with more violence. With an outlook like our friend GP, I could very well blame you for the events of Columbine. Even if it isn't rational and only justifies violence with violence to result in violence justified by the earliest violence.... ad infinitum with the opposite of spiritual growth occurring.

You'll notice the link you posted was last updated 2 days ago.

More importantly, in the report, there wasn't a single mention of anti-Hindu agenda.

With compassion comes resolution and understanding. Surely, that which is known as "Hinduism" is the most compassionate in the world.

Perhaps if the energy was invested in teaching and becoming a proponent to understanding... the designers and news reports would have beautiful scripture beside the humble apology of the designers. Possibly, even, perpetuating the beliefs. :)

For confirmation, we can visit the Ramayan:


There once was a forest sage named Guha. He and his followers worshipped god as nature. One day some Brahmanas (priests) came to Guha’s forest. They placed a statue of Shiva under a tree and came there each day to worship; returning to their nearby camp at night. When the Brahmanas had gone for the day, Guha would come and kick the statue of Shiva saying, “God is a tree and you are only a big hunk of stone.”

Guha kicked Shiva each and every night until one day the rainy season took hold and flooding kept the Brahmanas from coming to worship Shiva as they stayed safely in their encampment. Guha remained unperturbed – he crossed the swollen river with the intention of giving that hunk of stone a good kick!! Because the flooding had kept a pack of wolves from hunting, when they saw Guha, they gave chase. Guha ran until he came to the tree under which sat the statue of Shiva. He quickly climbed the tree, escaping the wolves, but they kept watch through the night.

Guha was hungry, so he picked some nuts from the tree, but they were too green to eat, so he threw them down and they hit the statue. Guha shivered through the night, trying to keep warm. His shivering shook water on the statue and he cursed and grumbled all night long. By morning, the wolves had left but the Brahmanas had returned, now able to cross the ebbing river. Guha, after a sleepless night, descended from the tree in a wild mood – his matted hair and fierce appearance frightened the Brahmanas and they ran away, never to return.

Guha left the area as well and years later, was bitten by a snake and died from the poison. As Yama, the god of death came for his soul – Guha, in death as in life, put up quite a struggle against authority! Suddenly, Yama and Guha found themselves in front of Lord Shiva and his consort Parvati. Shiva said, “Yama, this soul is mine, he is my most dear devotee.” Yama retorted, “Shiva, this man has killed and committed other sins, his soul is mine.” Shiva replied, “Once, this Guha spent the night in great discomfort to himself to protect me from wolves. He fed me food he needed himself. He chanted all night and showered me with water. He chased away those who only loved me superficially.” Yama smiled, “Guha is indeed your devotee – his soul is yours.” Shiva returned Guha to his body.

And again in the story of Brighu:


"[...] let me see if I can also make Vishnu angry. I am sure it will be quite easy.” While Vishnu was still asleep, Bhrigu started mildly kicking him. Vishnu did not wake up. Then Bhrigu kicked Vishnu extremely hard right on his chest. Vishnu woke up and immediately grabbed Bhrigu’s feet. “Are you hurt, are you hurt, my child? Please tell me. You kicked me so hard! I am deeply concerned that you have hurt yourself. Please tell me what I can do for you.”

Eastern Mind
11 May 2011, 07:51 PM
With an outlook like our friend GP, I could very well blame you for the events of Columbine.

Vannakkam; I could be wrong, but I doubt if our Indian friends here would get this reference. In fact, I don't. Something about needless violence, I think, but I can't remember. Perhaps you could do a brief explanation for other's benefit.

Aum Namasivaya

Water
11 May 2011, 08:14 PM
Ah, good point.

The example provided by EM included a bully. To extrapolate, we can use a story I will take some creative freedom with.

A bully is picking on a kid. A school teacher (for example) may view the abuse and confront the bully. The bully would reply with, "I'm not picking on him, I'm only playing around!" The teacher would ask the target of the bully, "Is that true?"

Many times, the person being picked on will simply agree that they were "playing" rather than getting the bully in trouble. The bully would take revenge later if the target of the bully answered otherwise. To avoid the whole situation, the person being picked on will avoid at-all-cost being the person that gets the bully in trouble.

This is an extreme of pacifism and can even be considered a way of enabling the bully to continue picking on whoever they want without fear of consequence.

In the events of Columbine, two students that were thought to often be the targets of bullying took up weapons and killed 13 people, injuring an additional 21 before taking their own lives.

This is another extreme of stronger violence being the "best answer" to violence.

This never-ending cyclical nature of violence is only broken with compassion.

Throughout history, scripture and sources far and wide have propelled this idea. From Hinduism to Buddhism, Christianity to Zoroastrianism.... the great teacher Morihei Ueshiba - the father of Aikido and countless others...

Ganeshprasad
12 May 2011, 08:29 AM
Pranam

I am at a lost here, on a Hindu forum, being portrayed as an aggressor or advocating violence, I would request, those who are interested, to read my post , I said ‘I am infuriated not by those bigoted, ignorant fools who go about deliberately inflaming the sentiments of Hindus, for cheep publicity, but by those who intellectualise or philosophise, that make the victim look like fanatics.’
With friends like that, who need enemy?

Lets face it what the designer had in mind, was to gain cheep publicity, that is precisely what it got, it’s naive to think this company did this out off ignorance .

Do we as a Hindu stand by and do nothing? Perhaps we can, rationalise the fact that Gods remain untainted, so we could rise above those ignorant fools, but then, do I vilify those who feel, and as a result raise an objection because their sentiment has genuinely been hurt?

PS I do not advocate violence, burning off flags or any such practice.

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
12 May 2011, 08:47 AM
Vannakkam GP: Absolutely. That is why I spoke of who is to be the judge. If someone is offended, they're offended ... period. Nobody can logically go around and say 'you're not offended because your shouldn't be offended, or worse yet, ... "because I am not offended." That reeks of inability to recognise another's thoughts, and applying the fallacy that 'everyone THINKS the way I think."

I am not a mind reader. I don't know the intentions of the designer in question. There are some pretty stupid people (as in regard to Hinduism) here in the west, like the congressman who asked, "Which sect do you belong to, Sunni or Shia?" to some Hindu.

Nobody called for a fatwa, or a beheading of the designer here. Hindus are well known for their peaceful protests, at least since the time of Gandhi. Before that, my understanding was they were more naive welcoming doormats, although I could be wrong.

The cancerous deterioration of our culture is something to be concerned about. My own temple president had to give yet another stern talk just last Sunday about people visiting (yap, yap , yap while others are trying to pray) in the temple, and proper attire (modest, at least). What's next, murthies dressed in jeans and ball caps, and bikini clad devotees? Smokin' cigarettes and selling drugs in temple premises.

This was an opportunity to educate, and the designer got the message.

Aum Namasivaya

Water
12 May 2011, 09:48 AM
The cancerous deterioration of our culture is something to be concerned about. My own temple president had to give yet another stern talk just last Sunday about people visiting (yap, yap , yap while others are trying to pray) in the temple, and proper attire (modest, at least). What's next, murthies dressed in jeans and ball caps, and bikini clad devotees? Smokin' cigarettes and selling drugs in temple premises.

And this is indeed exactly the point.

When reactions go from noticing to trying to equally offend another (you printed that suit, I burn your flag, you sell that item, I email you threats) everything goes down hill..... everything.

Did anyone here write the designers and reasonably request to them that their action was incorrect? Did you try to provide education about the material they chose to print and why it was inappropriate? Compassion goes a long way. The designers very well could have shared a heart-felt explanation that would guarantee a positive curiosity into the culture rather than knowing "those pesky Hindus pulled down my favorite swimwear with no explanation."

From my perspective, you sat on the internet judging them for their zealotry in subject material that was obviously chosen for cheap publicity....

Writing them could have provided education. Lamenting with aggression on the internet will only provide the gunpowder to ignite the next incident.

In other words, you are propelling the deterioration of the culture by not providing education and only participating in ensuring it happens again for "cheap publicity."

And what of the images on T-shirts that are popular in Western Yoga and New Age shops? The ones designed to be sweat drenched and thrown on locker room floors... Some of them are even printed in India.....

... or do you only concern yourselves with stories that have mass-media appeal?

The energy you put into trying to convince me that you are righteous and I am ignorant is quite literally counter-productive to the stated goal of avoiding the erosion of the culture.

PS - I forgot to mention.... I did email the designers the moment someone called me to tell me about a story on BBC about it. I also emailed the company that made the Ganesha skateboards a couple of years ago.

The conundrum to ask yourself is.... why are westerners drawn to these images en masse whether it be at Western Yoga shops, skateboards or bathing suits? The Ganesha skateboards were supposedly quite popular long before there was any publicity of the incident.

You want to protect a culture? Use an opportunity to teach about it.

.... or babble online about how justified you are in your anger.

One of those is productive. :)

Ganeshprasad
12 May 2011, 10:07 AM
Pranam EM, precisely, I read the message of judging, unfortunately it got watered down (pun intended)

We are constantly made aware off our compassion and ahimsa , let us not mistake this as Inaction or apathy. Lord Krishna spoke Bhagvat Gita precisely for this reason, unfortunately the message has got lost or misread.
You are quite right about Hindus being naïve and the welcoming doormat. For far too long we worry about what others might think and excuse others very easily. We are asked to show restraint even when our parliament get attack, no wonder we are laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

Jai Shree Krishna

NayaSurya
12 May 2011, 10:47 AM
Taken from About.com's article on the swimwear here (http://hinduism.about.com/b/2011/05/08/lakshmi-swimwear.htm)-


"Lisa Burke's Lisa Blue (http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/1hc&zu=http://lisablue.com.au/) Swimwear claims to represent "the girl of the future who can be sexy, beautiful, powerful and environmentally aware at the same time."

The problem is that there is a global trend outside of Hindu countries which see any Hindu related drawing as part of a "neo-hippie" movement of environmentally conservative folks, most of them also yoga enthusiasts. These folks, who have often times, only received the barest of information about the true Yoga...have no idea how offensive this imagery is to others.

Usually former pagans, they do not understand how deep the water is, and stay within the shallows.

I joined a "Yoga" group within the past five years and discovered it was soley made up of pagans and christians who chanted mantras they would lable as "good for digestion" or "good for money problems". When I became very enthusiastic at the mention of mantras to my Beloved Shiva. They all unanimously met me and told me that this was not a religious practice and the mantra was not religious but just for "yoga".

They all wore these sorts of clothes, tiny mini tee shirts with Om and Goddess. They even sat upon these images.... I departed.

The problem is that others, not able to swallow the whole pill of Truth which SD contains...because of their previous states of belief and upbringing...begin to water down the message of SD.

My country is the home of thousands of such beings, and for this I am deeply sorry. I used to correct them all...when I met them I knew immediately our relationship could not be. Now, I leave them in peace as I do realize they are not able to make this necessary leap into the deep waters....yet.

Perhaps it was my job here to help them understand, but it was always met with such a tremendous friction...and my heart could not withstand such things for very long.

The more information put out into this ether online, the more of these ones I speak of will see it...and by this...perhaps they will either take the plunge into the deep waters and learn...or get out of the water all together.

Trying to reconcile two such drastically different beliefs is like straddling a great gorge. One foot on one side, and one foot on the other. If you do not make a decision, you will fall.

It is not to say christian and pagan upon the edge of this cliff can not make the leap and become very happy. But, so many stay at the edge and this is how such images appear upon undergarments.

They are as children, they truly do not understand.

Eastern Mind
12 May 2011, 12:35 PM
You want to protect a culture? Use an opportunity to teach about it.

.... or babble online about how justified you are in your anger.

One of those is productive. :)

Vannakkam: I'm glad you wrote an email in protest. Many of us here also do the same. As a regular temple goer and occasional volunteer temple manager, I occasionally have to step in and 'educate' regarding dress, hats, entering the moolasthanam, etc. One should never lose the opportunity to educate the masses, although sometimes one encounters (as Naya did) the uneducatable. as a former coach I faced uncoachable athletes at times. Generally, after some attempts to restructure the egos, they were cut from the team.

Just because someone is babbling on line doesn't mean they also aren't taking action, in the myriads of small ways possible. I think that's a bit of a jump.

Aum Namasivaya

Water
12 May 2011, 02:13 PM
Vannakkam: I'm glad you wrote an email in protest. Many of us here also do the same. As a regular temple goer and occasional volunteer temple manager, I occasionally have to step in and 'educate' regarding dress, hats, entering the moolasthanam, etc. One should never lose the opportunity to educate the masses, although sometimes one encounters (as Naya did) the uneducatable. as a former coach I faced uncoachable athletes at times. Generally, after some attempts to restructure the egos, they were cut from the team.

Just because someone is babbling on line doesn't mean they also aren't taking action, in the myriads of small ways possible. I think that's a bit of a jump.

Aum Namasivaya

Exactly! Why are people drawn to use the artwork? It sounds like a great chance to educate and perpetuate the culture people claim to be protecting!

This entire thread itself has gone from outrage to sideways attempts to justify burning flags and mosaics of anger. Even conspiracy theories of anti-Hinduism and the intentional disgrace of images to propel sales! Now *that's* a jump.....

Insulting each other produces more insults that will eventually escalate to something completely undesirable.

Take pride that the images were chosen and even more pride in propelling the ideology before burning flags and constructing bizarre conspiracy theories.

Ganeshprasad
12 May 2011, 04:20 PM
Take pride that the images were chosen and even more pride in propelling the ideology before burning flags and constructing bizarre conspiracy theories.

I don't believe i am hearing this, what twisted logic! oh i give up but then i should not be surprised it is Kali yuga.

Jai Shree Krishna

proudhindu
12 May 2011, 05:45 PM
For me, those shirts would never be worn. Those images are so precious.

:iagree:

Eastern Mind
12 May 2011, 05:58 PM
Vannakkam: I know of no Hindu woman who would even wear a bikini, BTW. We are a modest lot. At the same time we don't run around beaches yelling, "Cover up! Cover up!" Its a live and let live idea. But I'm still quite glad none of my staunch Hindu didn't attend my son's tropical wedding in the Dominican Republic. Some of the beaches there were semi-nude. Can't really imagine that stark contrast.

Here's my favorite beach: http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/23/54/91/tiruchendur-la-spiaggia.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g1373035-d1372902-Reviews-Thiruchendur_Murugan_Temple-Thiruchendur_Tamil_Nadu.html&usg=__OkBzDuXl5GR7QvZMrJyuIfrxJoI=&h=412&w=550&sz=44&hl=en&start=0&sig2=y3mWN77dqmzBPRYJmOEwzQ&zoom=1&tbnid=Q_ZsRaJTCBWE9M:&tbnh=147&tbnw=191&ei=AGXMTZHpHIbV0QH-8dGpBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTiruchendur%2Bbeach%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D729%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1140&vpy=428&dur=1826&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=105&ty=111&page=1&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:25,s:0

Aum Namasivaya

charitra
12 May 2011, 07:44 PM
The storyline has enraged a few hindus who claim it is a slight on their faith. Is it really? No don’t think so!

When my daughter wearing an Om T-shirt is OK with me, then a bikini with an image of deity is also similarly fine with me. Lets reflect for a moment- what harm hindu deities did to a western woman that she would express her disdain? It is NOT a derogatory religious statement as is often mistakenly perceived in these cases. In fact it serves as an education material to billions of non-hindus out there. These are the very folks who made Buddha a very acceptable image in the west, and ironically collectively Krishna and Rama stand nowhere compared to buddha’s popularity.

Why therefore take the poor little bikini so seriously then, as someone already said here just leave the woman alone. If at all, it is great that the woman chose to wear one!?! :D

Ganeshprasad
13 May 2011, 08:21 AM
Vannakkam: I know of no Hindu woman who would even wear a bikini, BTW. We are a modest lot. At the same time we don't run around beaches yelling, "Cover up! Cover up!" Its a live and let live idea.

Aum Namasivaya

Pranam EM

How very true, we do what we do and I hope it continues, that is our culture, you would have noticed
In your travels on pilgrimage, taking a dip in holy waters, always fully clothed by the ladies.

Coming back to this current issue, I find it strange that we have to be on defensive, I am trying very hard to understand rationales of some of our fellow Hindus, how on one hand we keep these pictures of Devas on altars, offer our worship and on the other hand expected not to react or even worse, admire the same pictures on someone’s bum!

I like what Naya says, For me, those shirts would never be worn. Those images are so precious.

Jai Shree Krishna

Water
13 May 2011, 09:58 AM
[expected to] admire the same pictures on someone’s bum!

Where is this being asked of you? Is it here in this thread on this forum? Could you show me?


I like what Naya says, For me, those shirts would never be worn. Those images are so precious.

What do you think is happening to the clothing items that were manufactured but not sold? I'm willing to bet they are either in a trash heap :eek: or burned :eek: ..... :(

You can't stop what has already happened. Embrace it with compassion and educate those individuals - not by taking up arms, but by taking up kind words.

From my experience, your opinions are that of constant extremes. While not necessarily a bad thing, I want you to understand that I'm not here asking you to "worship bums."

Let's look at two example reactions:
Person 1: How DARE you?! That image belongs to *my* culture and *my* culture only. It is obvious you're leveraging this image and my reaction to sell more clothing! OUTRAGEOUS that you didn't know better! There is NO excuse! What more can a righteous man like myself expect from the Kali Yuga?!

Person 2: That was unfortunately placed and is completely inappropriate. Let me take it upon myself to tell them their mistake and try to explain the issue with compassion. Perhaps they may even replace the section of the website with that clothing item with a beautiful rendering of Mahalakshmi Stotram.

Now tell me which one of those people are Hindu.......

PARAM
13 May 2011, 12:18 PM
Let's look at two example reactions:
Person 1: How DARE you?! That image belongs to *my* culture and *my* culture only. It is obvious you're leveraging this image and my reaction to sell more clothing! OUTRAGEOUS that you didn't know better! There is NO excuse! What more can a righteous man like myself expect from the Kali Yuga?!

Person 2: That was unfortunately placed and is completely inappropriate. Let me take it upon myself to tell them their mistake and try to explain the issue with compassion. Perhaps they may even replace the section of the website with that clothing item with a beautiful rendering of Mahalakshmi Stotram.

Now tell me which one of those people are Hindu.......

I may wear the Shirt with Hindu Symbol and Pictures, but do not allow inner wears and toilet, shoes etc with them. It is disrespect for the deities and Hinduism.

Your example is not real one what is happening.

Ganeshprasad
13 May 2011, 12:23 PM
Oh that is rich coming from you , if we are on the same page what are we arguing about?


You have for ever interacted with me by branding me being aggressive, a sure sign a bully adopts to deflect from hiding the truth. You sure know how to play with words.

Where have I, or for that matter anyone here who has suggested using force or violence ?

Infect my gripe was not so much for the designer (although I do not approve) but for people like you, who seems to brand the victim a fanatic for making a protest .

i don't even know why i am responding to you




Where is this being asked of you? Is it here in this thread on this forum? Could you show me?

have a look




You do know two piece bathing suits are decorated with a variety of beautiful pictures, right? Do you know I have personally seen butterflies on such garments?




Take pride that the images were chosen and even more pride in propelling the ideology




Jai Shree Krishna

TheOne
13 May 2011, 02:07 PM
http://www.6dollarshirts.com/product.php?productid=11258&cat=0&page=1



I was planning on purchasing this shirt, and wearing it with love to my favorite Elephant headed deity.

Water
13 May 2011, 03:19 PM
Oh that is rich coming from you , if we are on the same page what are we arguing about?

Who said we were? This is my favorite part of talking to you - half of the conversation is made up of weird extreme counterpoints. :)


Where have I, or for that matter anyone here who has suggested using force or violence ?

Ah, I see. You're looking for the literal word. Aggression, to me, is violence. Burning a flag is violence. Falsifying facts into inflammatory statements is violence. Thinking "I hate you" is equivalent to saying "I hate you" is equivalent to slapping someones face. All three fall under himsa.


Infect my gripe was not so much for the designer (although I do not approve) but for people like you, who seems to brand the victim a fanatic for making a protest .

There's a protest: Hey, I'm not OK with this.

Simple.

Then there's burning flags. There's also deceiving audiences about the intent of the designers with steadfast opinions of "boosting sales" with absolutely no proof.


i don't even know why i am responding to you

Because you can't help yourself. The righteous Will is overtaking any sensible action in all of your interactions with me. :)

I've mentioned this before - as in the world, and in every group action, we are here to exchange. The very presence of your beautiful words often has impact on those around us. The very presence of what you view as cowardly ambiguous words again - has impact on those around us. Pacifism and compassion aren't negative aspects and neither is having a strong will and conviction.

What I'm asking you to do is consider the designers as ignorant individuals. Metaphorically, they are empty glasses that were somehow drawn to images they found beautiful and representative of an honorable cause. You can fill those glasses with the vinegar of confrontation and rage or you can fill them with the honey of knowledge.

I cannot for a second think someone said, "You know what would be awesome? Pissing off Hindus. Let's put images from their culture in the same place we put images from our culture. That will @#$(! show them!" Comical, eh?

Every exchange has an outcome. Your blind disregard will eventually turn into more blind disregard. A swimsuit becomes a flag, burning flags becomes racial prejudice, prejudice becomes disrespect, disrespect becomes a beating at school, a beating at school becomes arson... quite possible outcome. And do you know who is responsible? We all are.


have a look

None of the quoted sentences said you should worship bums. As I said, see the first sentence - half of this is fantasy.

Ganeshprasad
14 May 2011, 05:33 AM
Pranam

This will be my last post on this thread, I have said all that I needed to say, there is no need to for me to repeat my self. We as Hindus should uphold the sanctity off our worship able deities, this whole argument stem from this premise, let their be no ambiguity.

I am not into playing games, nor playing with words, if you get some perverted pleasure out off making some weird extreme counterpoints, that is really sad.

You have used your fertile imagination to accuse me off aggression where none was meant, and I will gladly except that accusation if it was true. Bare in mind your words can equally be construed as aggression so your point is mute, there is no himsa in defending the insults heaped on you. You have to decide who caused the situation?


How long do you want those ignorant fools to walk all over you? Let those perpetuators know that you no longer would tolerate the insults heaped on our deities.
When someone is on catwalk, advertising a product, they use all method possible to get desire result, sex, controversy etc, nothing comical about it, not in the corporate world, only ethic they know is money




None of the quoted sentences said you should worship bums. As I said, see the first sentence - half of this is fantasy.

I never accused you off that, no need to change the context, the subject matter is Maa Laxmi and its image being used on the swimwear, what you describe that as an artwork, for us to take pride in it, your fantasy is running riot and you talk about being passive.

As I said this is going to be my last post on this thread, let’s hear from you, without any ambiguity, do you think those images, to be worn on the bum appropriate? Should I as a Hindu who worship them on the altar not feel insulted?

Jai Shree Krishna

satay
16 May 2011, 10:04 PM
Admin Note

Thread under review.